• anti-AAT WHAT talk

    From [email protected]@21:1/5 to All on Mon Sep 12 06:24:50 2022
    Dear One and All

    Late (in WA, and even later in Tokyo!) last night we had the slightly confronting experience of hearing someone argue against​ our pet theories.

    Emeritus professor John Langdon wrote the first and, for 54 years, the only attempted critique of the so-called "aquatic ape" hypothesis in a specialist journal. I don't mind hearing arguments against the wading hypothesis. In fact, I think the
    academic response to these ideas is almost as interesting as the ideas themselves.

    Similarly here, although John's talk was interesting, I think the discussion afterwards was even more illuminating.

    Here are the links...


    YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCabWvsQUuw

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  • From JTEM is so reasonable@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Tue Sep 13 20:07:36 2022
    [email protected] wrote:

    Dear One and All

    Late (in WA, and even later in Tokyo!) last night we had the slightly confronting experience of hearing someone argue against​ our pet theories.

    Emeritus professor John Langdon wrote the first and, for 54 years, the only attempted critique of the so-called "aquatic ape" hypothesis in a specialist journal. I don't mind hearing arguments against the wading hypothesis. In fact, I think the
    academic response to these ideas is almost as interesting as the ideas themselves.

    Similarly here, although John's talk was interesting, I think the discussion afterwards was even more illuminating.

    Here are the links...

    I had numerous problems with it.

    Overall, I'd say he's stuck, frozen sometime about 50 years ago. Or at least I hope so,
    because he doesn't seem to be aware of anything spoken or written since then!

    Let me paint you a picture of Aquatic Ape that the detractors will never see:

    We have Hominins EVERYWHERE, spread from the southern reaches of Africa to
    deep into China and beyond. And we have this going back MILLIONS of years!
    I've twice already cited a Chinese site dated to maybe 2 million years or more and
    even THAT site was deceptive. See, it weren't using base tools. These weren't the lowest level of the technology. Whatever made them, whatever used them
    had existed long enough to produce tools and then refine their invention, move on to Tool Set 2.0 or later by that point... more than 2 million years ago... in
    China.

    So what explains these far flung groups? What model allows groups to spread across the continents, some periodically splitting off, moving inland, adapting to their new found environments... evolving...

    Does savanna nonsense allow this? Does it make any room for this? Are there
    any provisions within the savanna idiocy which could and would result in this?

    No.

    We have two concepts here:

    #1. Coastal Dispersal

    This is someone everyone agrees with, only all the savanna apes immediately deny it... after agreeing... they both agree and deny.

    See, Coastal Dispersal REQUIRES Aquatic Ape.

    If they were on the coast they weren't there for a rock concert and they weren't searching for an all night Burger King. No. They lived there. They
    ate there. They were exploiting marine resources.

    Put short: They were eating and then just as soon as the pickings grew
    slim they moved on. That's it. That's all they were doing.

    AND groups periodically moved inland, following rivers, escaping conflicts, running from disease, chased off by natural disasters... periodically groups pushed inland and adapted. Made new lives for themselves.

    This HAD TO HAPPEN. No question. Coastal Dispersal means THIS HAD
    TO HAPPEN and we all agree that it did. Even the Out of Africa purists.

    EVERYONE AGREES: Coastal Dispersal and Coastal Dispersal means
    Aquatic Ape. It means a waterside population exploiting marine
    resources.

    Wait. How is it that setting one toe on a savanna completely transforms
    the human body & mind, but MILLIONS of years of exploiting the sea
    did nothing?

    So that's it. Aquatic Ape tells us WHY there were Denisovans and WHY
    there were "Hobbits" and WHY there were Neanderthals, Red Deer
    People and all the rest. Savanna idiocy doesn't even try to explain this.

    BUT AT THE SAME TIME it's not an overly simplistic linear model. They
    didn't live waterside, move away and then move back. Some moved
    inland, became isolated and then later came back into contact with the waterside group, exchanging genes.

    Virtually the entire history of the genus Homo has existed in this present
    Ice Age, the Quaternary Period. "Climate Change." Sea levels have been
    AND WILL CONTINUE to rise & fall, connecting and isolating lands. Places
    that were warm got cold and then got warm again, only to get cold...
    forests spread and retreated... species thrived and then died off...

    I image that at some point, once the Glacial/Interglacial cycle emerged,
    human evolution grew machine like: As clock work. Glaciers grow, vast
    treks of land emerge, connected far flung places, the waterside group
    could walk from Oceania to deepest Africa, meeting and breeding with
    anyone they met. Then the Interglacial period would start, the waters
    would rise and everyone was cut off from each other, evolving on their
    own. It would be at this point when diving would have been most
    beneficial. Without endless stretches of beaches to exploit, diving would
    allow them to increase their range locally by simply going into deeper
    waters. They could produce far more resources from a smaller stretch
    of beach by extending their reach beneath the waves.

    This is probably where erectus comes from. But he was tropical, no
    colder than sub tropical, and to really seize the world he had to start adapting to new (colder) environments....

    Yeah, aquatic ape gives us all this. And it gives as bigger brains. We
    were getting all the Omega-3s we needed to grow our brains just as
    large as our genetics would allow. Add the occasional lucky mutation
    and they grow even more...


    Aquatic Ape does this. It fits. It works. It explains everything. No
    competing savanna nonsense explains ANYTHING at all, not even
    why they would be on the savanna in the first place!

    "Well I don't have a large brain yet, I'm much slower and weaker than
    all the predators so, why not? What can go wrong?"





    -- --

    https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/694874494528077824

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  • From [email protected]@21:1/5 to All on Wed Sep 14 10:52:53 2022
    Op woensdag 14 september 2022 om 05:07:37 UTC+2 schreef JTEM is so reasonable:

    Dear One and All
    Late (in WA, and even later in Tokyo!) last night we had the slightly confronting experience of hearing someone argue against​ our pet theories.
    Emeritus professor John Langdon wrote the first and, for 54 years, the only attempted critique of the so-called "aquatic ape" hypothesis in a specialist journal. I don't mind hearing arguments against the wading hypothesis. In fact, I think the
    academic response to these ideas is almost as interesting as the ideas themselves.
    Similarly here, although John's talk was interesting, I think the discussion afterwards was even more illuminating.
    Here are the links...

    I had numerous problems with it.
    Overall, I'd say he's stuck, frozen sometime about 50 years ago. Or at least I hope so,
    because he doesn't seem to be aware of anything spoken or written since then!
    Let me paint you a picture of Aquatic Ape that the detractors will never see:
    We have Hominins EVERYWHERE, spread from the southern reaches of Africa to deep into China and beyond. And we have this going back MILLIONS of years! I've twice already cited a Chinese site dated to maybe 2 million years or more and
    even THAT site was deceptive. See, it weren't using base tools. These weren't
    the lowest level of the technology. Whatever made them, whatever used them had existed long enough to produce tools and then refine their invention, move
    on to Tool Set 2.0 or later by that point... more than 2 million years ago... in
    China.
    So what explains these far flung groups? What model allows groups to spread across the continents, some periodically splitting off, moving inland, adapting
    to their new found environments... evolving...
    Does savanna nonsense allow this? Does it make any room for this? Are there any provisions within the savanna idiocy which could and would result in this?
    No.
    We have two concepts here:
    #1. Coastal Dispersal
    This is someone everyone agrees with, only all the savanna apes immediately deny it... after agreeing... they both agree and deny.
    See, Coastal Dispersal REQUIRES Aquatic Ape.
    If they were on the coast they weren't there for a rock concert and they weren't searching for an all night Burger King. No. They lived there. They ate there. They were exploiting marine resources.
    Put short: They were eating and then just as soon as the pickings grew
    slim they moved on. That's it. That's all they were doing.
    AND groups periodically moved inland, following rivers, escaping conflicts, running from disease, chased off by natural disasters... periodically groups pushed inland and adapted. Made new lives for themselves.
    This HAD TO HAPPEN. No question. Coastal Dispersal means THIS HAD
    TO HAPPEN and we all agree that it did. Even the Out of Africa purists. EVERYONE AGREES: Coastal Dispersal and Coastal Dispersal means
    Aquatic Ape. It means a waterside population exploiting marine
    resources.
    Wait. How is it that setting one toe on a savanna completely transforms
    the human body & mind, but MILLIONS of years of exploiting the sea
    did nothing?
    So that's it. Aquatic Ape tells us WHY there were Denisovans and WHY
    there were "Hobbits" and WHY there were Neanderthals, Red Deer
    People and all the rest. Savanna idiocy doesn't even try to explain this. BUT AT THE SAME TIME it's not an overly simplistic linear model. They
    didn't live waterside, move away and then move back. Some moved
    inland, became isolated and then later came back into contact with the waterside group, exchanging genes.
    Virtually the entire history of the genus Homo has existed in this present Ice Age, the Quaternary Period. "Climate Change." Sea levels have been
    AND WILL CONTINUE to rise & fall, connecting and isolating lands. Places that were warm got cold and then got warm again, only to get cold...
    forests spread and retreated... species thrived and then died off...
    I image that at some point, once the Glacial/Interglacial cycle emerged, human evolution grew machine like: As clock work. Glaciers grow, vast
    treks of land emerge, connected far flung places, the waterside group
    could walk from Oceania to deepest Africa, meeting and breeding with
    anyone they met. Then the Interglacial period would start, the waters
    would rise and everyone was cut off from each other, evolving on their
    own. It would be at this point when diving would have been most
    beneficial. Without endless stretches of beaches to exploit, diving would allow them to increase their range locally by simply going into deeper waters. They could produce far more resources from a smaller stretch
    of beach by extending their reach beneath the waves.
    This is probably where erectus comes from. But he was tropical, no
    colder than sub tropical, and to really seize the world he had to start adapting to new (colder) environments....
    Yeah, aquatic ape gives us all this. And it gives as bigger brains. We
    were getting all the Omega-3s we needed to grow our brains just as
    large as our genetics would allow. Add the occasional lucky mutation
    and they grow even more...
    Aquatic Ape does this. It fits. It works. It explains everything. No competing savanna nonsense explains ANYTHING at all, not even
    why they would be on the savanna in the first place!
    "Well I don't have a large brain yet, I'm much slower and weaker than
    all the predators so, why not? What can go wrong?"

    Yes, Hardy thought our aq.past was 10 Ma or so,
    Elaine thought our aq.phase *caused* the Homo/Pan split (6 or 5 Ma?).
    But our most-aq.phase was probably (early?)Pleistocene (<2.5 Ma?):
    erectus' pachyosteosclerosis, ear exostoses, brain enlargement, island colonizations, shellfish engravings etc. leave 0 doubt:
    they frequently dived for shallow-aq.foods: mostly shellfish?
    And yes, the cycle of Ice Ages might well have been very important in our ancestors' aq.adaptations.

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    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From JTEM is so reasonable@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Wed Sep 14 14:15:42 2022
    [email protected] wrote:

    Yes, Hardy thought our aq.past was 10 Ma or so,

    It probably started then, if not earlier.

    Elaine thought our aq.phase *caused* the Homo/Pan split (6 or 5 Ma?).

    I think the issue here is the reliance on linear models, in the case of both Hardy and Morgan.

    I doubt very, Very, VERY much that they were aquatic and then stopped,
    maybe starting again. I think it more likely that we had the waterside population and groups branched off. The waterside never went away,
    but it kept coming into contact with these different inland branches,
    sharing genes, keeping us one species while at the same time acquiring
    new traits.

    One prediction of this model is that there would have been prior splittings.
    In other words, if Lucy was from a group that split from the waterside,
    she likely co existed with groups that split off much earlier. Could be that interbreeding with them set Lucy too far apart from the waterside
    population to interbreed.

    I know the later scenario with Neanderthals -- more than one Denisovans --
    and others seems to follow this model: Divergent groups encountering
    groups that prevously diverged, and interbreeding...

    Can we see evidence for this 3 million years ago? What about 8 million
    years ago? I bet we could if we tried, if we identified what to look for...

    But our most-aq.phase was probably (early?)Pleistocene (<2.5 Ma?):

    I would think that once the glacial/interglacial cycle began, everything
    went into overdrive. At that point groups were going to be forced inland
    even if they didn't want to.

    erectus' pachyosteosclerosis, ear exostoses, brain enlargement, island colonizations, shellfish engravings etc. leave 0 doubt:

    I agree. If a population was stuck somewhere due to an interglacial (or population density), they couldn't just migrate to a virgin stretch of beach, maybe they pushed inland & adapted or maybe, just maybe they pushed
    out to sea!

    I mean, they could have easily multiplied the available resources by
    simply learning to dive down! Right?

    I imagine something like oysters would be a great candidate. Some beds
    would have been there for the pickings. But over generations they plucked
    it all dry as far out as they could wade. So, being human and needing
    food but WANTING oysters, they put in the effort...

    Substitute "Oysters" for anything you'd like.

    If there's two types of shellfish, and humans prefer one over the other, they'll
    pick the one clean before moving onto the other... they'll put in the extra effort for the one...

    I guess the problem here is that the mechanism -- Aquatic Ape -- allows for
    so much, so many possibilities, and NOTHNG is explained by savanna
    idiocy, not even the savanna!

    "They survived by endurance running so they all went extinct until finally endurance running evolved, then they all became zombies, got up from
    the ground and everything was cool."





    -- --

    https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/695170963650838529

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From [email protected]@21:1/5 to All on Wed Sep 14 14:42:10 2022
    Op woensdag 14 september 2022 om 23:15:43 UTC+2 schreef JTEM is so reasonable:
    [email protected] wrote:

    Yes, Hardy thought our aq.past was 10 Ma or so,

    It probably started then, if not earlier.

    The hominoid aquarboreal phase started earlier (BP wading+clmibing in swamp forest),
    but not Homo's shallow-diving phase.

    Elaine thought our aq.phase *caused* the Homo/Pan split (6 or 5 Ma?).

    I think the issue here is the reliance on linear models, in the case of both Hardy and Morgan.
    I doubt very, Very, VERY much that they were aquatic and then stopped,
    maybe starting again. I think it more likely that we had the waterside population and groups branched off. The waterside never went away,
    but it kept coming into contact with these different inland branches,
    sharing genes, keeping us one species while at the same time acquiring
    new traits.

    Clear indications of diving only appear early-Pleistocene as far as we know, parttime wading was certainly much earlier,
    but the exact reconstruction of the earlier phases is very difficult.

    One prediction of this model is that there would have been prior splittings. In other words, if Lucy was from a group that split from the waterside,
    she likely co existed with groups that split off much earlier. Could be that interbreeding with them set Lucy too far apart from the waterside
    population to interbreed.

    Lucy was a fossil relative of Gorilla.
    The Homo-Pan/Gorilla split was som 8 Ma, probably along the Red Sea:
    Gorilla following the incipient Rift?

    I know the later scenario with Neanderthals -- more than one Denisovans -- and others seems to follow this model: Divergent groups encountering
    groups that prevously diverged, and interbreeding...
    Can we see evidence for this 3 million years ago? What about 8 million
    years ago? I bet we could if we tried, if we identified what to look for...

    Denisova/neand./sapiens splittings were (mid? late?)Pleistocene IMO.

    But our most-aq.phase was probably (early?)Pleistocene (<2.5 Ma?):

    I would think that once the glacial/interglacial cycle began, everything
    went into overdrive. At that point groups were going to be forced inland
    even if they didn't want to.

    Yes, well possible, but difficult to know for sure.

    erectus' pachyosteosclerosis, ear exostoses, brain enlargement, island colonizations, shellfish engravings etc. leave 0 doubt:

    I agree. If a population was stuck somewhere due to an interglacial (or population density), they couldn't just migrate to a virgin stretch of beach, maybe they pushed inland & adapted or maybe, just maybe they pushed
    out to sea!
    I mean, they could have easily multiplied the available resources by
    simply learning to dive down! Right?

    Yes. Shallow-diving began at least early-Pleistocene: pachy-osteo-sclerosis in H.erectus.

    I imagine something like oysters would be a great candidate. Some beds
    would have been there for the pickings. But over generations they plucked
    it all dry as far out as they could wade. So, being human and needing
    food but WANTING oysters, they put in the effort...
    Substitute "Oysters" for anything you'd like.

    Yes. But also water-plants? Rice is still the most important human food?

    If there's two types of shellfish, and humans prefer one over the other, they'll
    pick the one clean before moving onto the other... they'll put in the extra effort for the one...
    I guess the problem here is that the mechanism -- Aquatic Ape -- allows for so much, so many possibilities, and NOTHING is explained by savanna
    idiocy, not even the savanna!

    Yes, the savanna fantasy is the most unbiological idea thinkable.

    "They survived by endurance running so they all went extinct until finally endurance running evolved, then they all became zombies, got up from
    the ground and everything was cool."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)