https://www.nature.com/articles/s42003-022-03321-z
our simulations further imply that australopithecines, like
humans, gave birth to immature, secondary altricial newborns
[. . .] We conclude that australopithecines required cooperative
breeding to care for their secondary altricial infants.
On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 4:22:39 PM UTC+1, Pandora wrote:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s42003-022-03321-zThey should also have concluded that
our simulations further imply that australopithecines, like
humans, gave birth to immature, secondary altricial newborns
[. . .] We conclude that australopithecines required cooperative
breeding to care for their secondary altricial infants.
australopiths could not have slept in trees --
the usual assumption of standard PA -- since
all other primate infants (whose mothers
sleep in trees) are not altricial.
infants need to be able to hold on to their
mothers all night, using their long strong
arms and their hand-like feet, a capacity they
had and have from birth.
The assumption is nonsensical in any case,
since (especially on stormy nights, or when
threatened by predators) large-bodied
primate mothers need to hold onto branches
with both their hands and feet. Their infants
must hold on to their mothers without any
assistance.
This means that australopiths slept on the
ground, with their infants and, if living
almost anywhere on continental Africa,
would have been subject to intolerable
levels of predation.
Some might have been able to sleep in caves
in dolomitic landscapes, but they are mostly
in Southern Africa. There are none close to
the East African australopith fossil sites.
A theory that "all early hominins slept in
caves" could possibly be proposed. It doesn't
work for me, and I hope that that's not just
unfamiliarity. Firstly, even if some quasi-
chimps, coming down from the trees, might
have slept in caves, they are unlikely to have
been sufficiently isolated from their ancestral
tree-living populations. Secondly, the (proto-)
hominins would still have had to forage in
the open by day, and had no protection from
devastating levels of predation. Thirdly, this
theory provides no basis for the evolution of
bipedalism; it is a much slower form of
locomotion (than quadrupedalism), and those
hominins would always have needed the best
possible speed.
On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 4:22:39 PM UTC+1, Pandora wrote:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s42003-022-03321-zThey should also have concluded that
our simulations further imply that australopithecines, like
humans, gave birth to immature, secondary altricial newborns
[. . .] We conclude that australopithecines required cooperative
breeding to care for their secondary altricial infants.
australopiths could not have slept in trees --
the usual assumption of standard PA -- since
all other primate infants (whose mothers
sleep in trees) are not altricial. Primate
infants need to be able to hold on to their
mothers all night, using their long strong
arms and their hand-like feet, a capacity they
had and have from birth.
The assumption is nonsensical in any case,
since (especially on stormy nights, or when
threatened by predators) large-bodied
primate mothers need to hold onto branches
with both their hands and feet. Their infants
must hold on to their mothers without any
assistance.
This means that australopiths slept on the
ground, with their infants and, if living
almost anywhere on continental Africa,
would have been subject to intolerable
levels of predation.
Some might have been able to sleep in caves
in dolomitic landscapes, but they are mostly
in Southern Africa. There are none close to
the East African australopith fossil sites.
A theory that "all early hominins slept in
caves" could possibly be proposed. It doesn't
work for me, and I hope that that's not just
unfamiliarity. Firstly, even if some quasi-
chimps, coming down from the trees, might
have slept in caves, they are unlikely to have
been sufficiently isolated from their ancestral
tree-living populations. Secondly, the (proto-)
hominins would still have had to forage in
the open by day, and had no protection from
devastating levels of predation. Thirdly, this
theory provides no basis for the evolution of
bipedalism; it is a much slower form of
locomotion (than quadrupedalism), and those
hominins would always have needed the best
possible speed.
Chimp infants are vastly more altricial vs most mammals and birds.
Apith infants were certainly very altricial.
On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 4:22:39 PM UTC+1, Pandora wrote:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s42003-022-03321-z
our simulations further imply that australopithecines, like
humans, gave birth to immature, secondary altricial newborns
[. . .] We conclude that australopithecines required cooperative
breeding to care for their secondary altricial infants.
They should also have concluded that
australopiths could not have slept in trees --
the usual assumption of standard PA -- since
all other primate infants (whose mothers
sleep in trees) are not altricial. Primate
infants need to be able to hold on to their
mothers all night, using their long strong
arms and their hand-like feet, a capacity they
had and have from birth.
The assumption is nonsensical in any case,
since (especially on stormy nights, or when
threatened by predators) large-bodied
primate mothers need to hold onto branches
with both their hands and feet. Their infants
must hold on to their mothers without any
assistance.
On Wed, 11 May 2022 15:22:47 -0700 (PDT), Paul Crowley!
<[email protected]> wrote:
On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 4:22:39 PM UTC+1, Pandora wrote:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s42003-022-03321-z
our simulations further imply that australopithecines, like
humans, gave birth to immature, secondary altricial newborns
[. . .] We conclude that australopithecines required cooperative
breeding to care for their secondary altricial infants.
They should also have concluded that
australopiths could not have slept in trees --
the usual assumption of standard PA -- since
all other primate infants (whose mothers
sleep in trees) are not altricial. Primate
infants need to be able to hold on to their
mothers all night, using their long strong
arms and their hand-like feet, a capacity they
had and have from birth.
The assumption is nonsensical in any case,I recently noticed this video of a chimp mother, Jire, who carried her
since (especially on stormy nights, or when
threatened by predators) large-bodied
primate mothers need to hold onto branches
with both their hands and feet. Their infants
must hold on to their mothers without any
assistance.
dead infant, Jokro, around for a month. https://www.greencorridor.info/en/videos/jokro/
Dead is about as altricial as you can get.
The assumption is nonsensical in any case,
since (especially on stormy nights, or when
threatened by predators) large-bodied
primate mothers need to hold onto branches
with both their hands and feet. Their infants
must hold on to their mothers without any
assistance.
I recently noticed this video of a chimp mother, Jire, who carried her
dead infant, Jokro, around for a month. https://www.greencorridor.info/en/videos/jokro/
Dead is about as altricial as you can get.
On Friday 27 May 2022 at 11:04:06 UTC+1, Pandora wrote:
The assumption is nonsensical in any case,
since (especially on stormy nights, or when
threatened by predators) large-bodied
primate mothers need to hold onto branches
with both their hands and feet. Their infants
must hold on to their mothers without any
assistance.
I recently noticed this video of a chimp mother, Jire, who carried her
dead infant, Jokro, around for a month.
https://www.greencorridor.info/en/videos/jokro/
Dead is about as altricial as you can get.
This was the body of a 2.5 y/old infant.
It rapidly became desiccated. But the
main points are (1) the mother could
trap the long arm of her dead infant
under her chin (against her body) with
the infant slung on her back, so that she
could use all four limbs for climbing, etc.
(2) there were no dangerous predators
in the vicinity (the humans would not
have stayed around so casually).
Human infants do not have long arms
(since they are not meant to grip
anything with them). Australopiths
can be assumed to have been similar.
This (very odd) behaviour by this
chimp mother would not have been
possible for a human or australopith.
On Sat, 28 May 2022 04:54:29 -0700 (PDT), Paul Crowley
<[email protected]> wrote:
On Friday 27 May 2022 at 11:04:06 UTC+1, Pandora wrote:
The assumption is nonsensical in any case,
since (especially on stormy nights, or when
threatened by predators) large-bodied
primate mothers need to hold onto branches
with both their hands and feet. Their infants
must hold on to their mothers without any
assistance.
I recently noticed this video of a chimp mother, Jire, who carried her
dead infant, Jokro, around for a month.
https://www.greencorridor.info/en/videos/jokro/
Dead is about as altricial as you can get.
This was the body of a 2.5 y/old infant.There are definitely leopards in the Mount Nimba area.
It rapidly became desiccated. But the
main points are (1) the mother could
trap the long arm of her dead infant
under her chin (against her body) with
the infant slung on her back, so that she
could use all four limbs for climbing, etc.
(2) there were no dangerous predators
in the vicinity (the humans would not
have stayed around so casually).
Human infants do not have long armsI'm not suggesting that apiths would carry an infant like that, but as indicated by the humerofemoral and intermembral index they had
(since they are not meant to grip
anything with them). Australopiths
can be assumed to have been similar.
This (very odd) behaviour by this
chimp mother would not have been
possible for a human or australopith.
relatively longer arms than humans (86.6 and 85.5 respectively in StW
573, 70.9 and 68.8 in human females, 102.6 and 109.4 in female
chimps).
The point is that if a dead infant can be carried along then who knows
how creative a mom can be with a slightly more cooperative living
infant.
Good points all. PC constantly harps on the uselessness of modern
babies,
but he ignores the behavior of H&G babies , and presumes sedentary agriculture, domestication, technology had no effect on infant care & behavior.
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