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  • G Cochran on Neanderthal hunting, salmon

    From DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_l@21:1/5 to All on Fri Jan 7 23:09:34 2022
    Greg Cochran at West Hunter blog:

    I've been reading Thin on the Ground, a book by Stephen Churchill. One of his ideas is based on the fact some predator species are dominant over others and get the lion's share (cough, cough) of the of the kills. Lions frequently steal carcasses from
    hyenas, while everyone steals from cheetahs and wild dogs, etc.

    There is good evidence ( stable isotope data) that Neanderthals were highly carnivorous, and that they used thrusting spears, which are effective but not as generally useful as atlatls - standoff weapons. Churchill suspects that with their thrusting
    spears tech, Neanderthals were _not_ the top dogs of the predator guild, and that they may have been dominated by cave lions and scimitar cats, while having approximately equal status with hyenas. In practice, this would mean that Neanderthals often lost
    kills to high-ranked carnivores such as cave lions. The majority of calories from animal kills would go to higher-ranked carnivores ( not to Neanderthals) . Neanderthal population size would be limited, and some environments ( like open plains, where
    kills are highly visible) might be effectively closed to them.

    Neanderthals don't seem to take much advantage of the Atlantic salmon runs - maybe bears didn't let them.

    We think of Man as #1, and generally that's the case nowadays, but it wasn't always true

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Paul Crowley@21:1/5 to All on Sat Jan 8 12:49:26 2022
    On Saturday 8 January 2022 at 07:09:35 UTC, DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves wrote:
    Greg Cochran at West Hunter blog:
    I've been reading Thin on the Ground, a book by Stephen Churchill. One of his ideas is based on
    the fact some predator species are dominant over others and get the lion's share (cough, cough)
    of the of the kills. Lions frequently steal carcasses from hyenas, while everyone steals from
    cheetahs and wild dogs, etc.

    There is good evidence ( stable isotope data) that Neanderthals were highly carnivorous, and that
    they used thrusting spears, which are effective but not as generally useful as atlatls - standoff
    weapons. Churchill suspects that with their thrusting spears tech, Neanderthals were _not_ the
    top dogs of the predator guild, and that they may have been dominated by cave lions and
    scimitar cats, while having approximately equal status with hyenas. In practice, this would mean
    that Neanderthals often lost kills to high-ranked carnivores such as cave lions. The majority of
    calories from animal kills would go to higher-ranked carnivores ( not to Neanderthals) .
    Neanderthal population size would be limited, and some environments ( like open plains, where
    kills are highly visible) might be effectively closed to them.

    The assumption underlying all of this is that
    Neanderthals had a distinct role in -- and were
    a normal part of -- the ecology.

    But that's just not so. IF they had been, then
    their fossil remains would roughly match those
    of hyenas, bears, cave lions, or some other
    common animal. List the frequency in which
    common animals are found, and Neanderthals
    should be present. Maybe -- for some unknown
    reason -- at one-tenth, or one-hundredth that of
    (say) hyenas. But they are not there AT ALL --
    or at a frequency so low that it barely registers
    -- one millionth or thereabouts. "Thin on the
    ground" doesn't cut it.

    Neanderthals don't seem to take much advantage of the Atlantic salmon runs - maybe bears
    didn't let them.

    We think of Man as #1, and generally that's the case nowadays, but it wasn't always true

    When you ignore the basic facts of the field,
    you just can't do science. Your thinking and
    your conclusions are worthless.

    Hominin children could never grow up in the
    presence of dangerous predators.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From [email protected]@21:1/5 to All on Sat Jan 8 15:28:40 2022
    There is good evidence (stable isotope data) that Neanderthals were highly carnivorous

    This is nonsense as everybody with a little bit of common sense knows: their stable isotope data showed that neandertals were more carnivorous than felids!! :-DDD
    From my MS:
    C- en N-isotopenonderzoek op botcollageen van NW-Europese neandertalers en Euraziatische Cro-Magnons en fossiele zoogdieren wijst volgens Michael Richards e.a. op veel mammoet- en neushoornvlees eten (Acheulianen ~1 Ma slachtten al walviskarkassen aan de
    W-Afrikaanse kust, Gutierrez 2001), maar dan zouden ze carnivoorder zijn dan katachtigen op het land – onmogelijk natuurlijk. Hun data kloppen wel met een mix van zoetwater- en kustvoedsel, bv. wat meer schelpdieren bij neandertalers, wat meer vis bij
    vroege sapiens (Richards 2007): sapiens δ15N ~12 (10 à 15) zoals bij vis, meer dan bij landdieren ~8 (6 à 9), maar sapiens δ13C ~-19 (-19 à -17) meer zoals bij landdieren (roofdieren ~-19, hoefdieren ~-20), maar evengoed tussen zoetwater- (~-22) en
    zeedieren (~-12), bv. een hoofdzakelijk-zoetwater- met 1 seizoen kustdieet. Isotopen onderscheiden moeilijk dierlijk en plantaardig voedsel, zegt José Joordens. Dat neandertalers veel planten aten, blijkt o.a. uit hun taurodontie, lisdodde op
    vuistbijlen, en waterlelies in tandplak (bonobo’s eten waterlelie Nymphaea en russoorten Juncus, rijk aan jodium vs landplanten, zie Hohmann 2019).

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_l@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Sat Jan 8 20:21:13 2022
    On Saturday, January 8, 2022 at 6:28:41 PM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
    There is good evidence (stable isotope data) that Neanderthals were highly carnivorous

    This is nonsense as everybody with a little bit of common sense knows: their stable isotope data showed that neandertals were more carnivorous than felids!! :-DDD
    From my MS:
    C- en N-isotopenonderzoek op botcollageen van NW-Europese neandertalers en Euraziatische Cro-Magnons en fossiele zoogdieren wijst volgens Michael Richards e.a. op veel mammoet- en neushoornvlees eten (Acheulianen ~1 Ma slachtten al walviskarkassen aan
    de W-Afrikaanse kust, Gutierrez 2001), maar dan zouden ze carnivoorder zijn dan katachtigen op het land – onmogelijk natuurlijk. Hun data kloppen wel met een mix van zoetwater- en kustvoedsel, bv. wat meer schelpdieren bij neandertalers, wat meer vis
    bij vroege sapiens (Richards 2007): sapiens δ15N ~12 (10 à 15) zoals bij vis, meer dan bij landdieren ~8 (6 à 9), maar sapiens δ13C ~-19 (-19 à -17) meer zoals bij landdieren (roofdieren ~-19, hoefdieren ~-20), maar evengoed tussen zoetwater- (~-22)
    en zeedieren (~-12), bv. een hoofdzakelijk-zoetwater- met 1 seizoen kustdieet. Isotopen onderscheiden moeilijk dierlijk en plantaardig voedsel, zegt José Joordens. Dat neandertalers veel planten aten, blijkt o.a. uit hun taurodontie, lisdodde op
    vuistbijlen, en waterlelies in tandplak (bonobo’s eten waterlelie Nymphaea en russoorten Juncus, rijk aan jodium vs landplanten, zie Hohmann 2019).

    In English, molluscivory & piscivory are subsets of carnivory.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)