Nearly all reptiles and mammals can swim.
Nearly all reptiles and mammals can swim. They've
been able to do so since their ancestral taxa first
evolved. Individuals have to migrate; species need to
be able to expand their range. Selection will ensure
that only those that can swim rivers will leave
offspring. So our monkey ancestors certainly could
swim -- as well as any monkeys today. But apes can't.
So when and why did that happen? What were the
selective advantages in losing that ability?
There were obviously none, as such. The first ape-
monkeys that lost that ability must have suffered the
occasional drowning. In normal circumstances, the
selective effect would be enough to halt the process.
But, at this time, while this process was going on, there
were other powerful selective forces in operation
which swamped it, and made those losses irrelevant.
I suggest that there is only one likely answer: the
evolution of brachiation, which necessitated great
changes in body form. While some proto-gibbons
would have fallen into water and drowned, what
mattered to the bulk of the population were much
longer arms, a different body shape, and a changed
weight distribution, all of which made swimming
difficult.
Once the changes had been made, the gibbons settled
into a niche where survival did not depend on being
able to swim to cross bodies of water, and where
populations found it easier to tolerate the occasional
loss from drowning rather than implement any
physical changes that might make swimming possible.
The species found it easier to build in a fear of water,
so that individuals minimised any risk they felt obliged
to take. The larger apes (orangutans, gorillas, chimps)
that descended from gibbons, inherited these
characteristics.
Nearly all reptiles and mammals can swim. They've
been able to do so since their ancestral taxa first
evolved. Individuals have to migrate; species need to
be able to expand their range. Selection will ensure
that only those that can swim rivers will leave
offspring. So our monkey ancestors certainly could
swim -- as well as any monkeys today. But apes can't.
So when and why did that happen? What were the
selective advantages in losing that ability?
On Thursday, December 23, 2021 at 6:09:57 PM UTC-5, Paul Crowley wrote:
I suggest that there is only one likely answer: the[..]
evolution of brachiation, which necessitated great
changes in body form. While some proto-gibbons
would have fallen into water and drowned, what
mattered to the bulk of the population were much
longer arms, a different body shape, and a changed
weight distribution, all of which made swimming
difficult.
The larger apes (orangutans, gorillas, chimps)
that descended from gibbons, inherited these
characteristics.
Crocs. The European miocene apes (quasi-hylobatids) could probably
still swim while evolving slow brachiation, but those in tropical
Africa/Asia became non-swimmers.
On Sunday 26 December 2021 at 14:20:31 UTC, DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves wrote:
On Thursday, December 23, 2021 at 6:09:57 PM UTC-5, Paul Crowley wrote:
I suggest that there is only one likely answer: the[..]
evolution of brachiation, which necessitated great
changes in body form. While some proto-gibbons
would have fallen into water and drowned, what
mattered to the bulk of the population were much
longer arms, a different body shape, and a changed
weight distribution, all of which made swimming
difficult.
The larger apes (orangutans, gorillas, chimps)
that descended from gibbons, inherited these
characteristics.
Crocs. The European miocene apes (quasi-hylobatids) could probablySo you're saying
still swim while evolving slow brachiation, but those in tropical Africa/Asia became non-swimmers.
A) That European miocene apes evolved from
monkeys and were the first apes, and that
they were first primates to develop
brachiation . . . ?
B) That this was SLOW brachiation . . .?
C) That they did this BEFORE some migrated
to SE Asia, where some descendants evolved
FAST brachiation and became gibbons . . . ?
D) That those remaining in Europe were the
ancestors of gorillas and chimps, while those
moving to SE Asia were the ancestors of
orangutans . . . ?
B) That this was SLOW brachiation . . .?
Chimps doo swim. They don't like it, they're not good at floating
and they're poorly balanced for the water but they can and do
swim. Not a lot. Not habitually...
Chimps were just as well adapted to swimming as we were, as
we are, and then they peeled off from us -- not the other way
around -- and adapted to the forest.
Swimming was not important to them.
So you're saying
A) That European miocene apes evolved from
monkeys and were the first apes, and that
they were first primates to develop
brachiation . . . ?
B) That this was SLOW brachiation . . .?
C) That they did this BEFORE some migrated
to SE Asia, where some descendants evolved
FAST brachiation and became gibbons . . . ?
D) That those remaining in Europe were the
ancestors of gorillas and chimps, while those
moving to SE Asia were the ancestors of
orangutans . . . ?
That is one logical possibility, but put the miocene ape expansion center around the southern Black Sea
B) That this was SLOW brachiation . . .?
slow brachiation doesn't exist,
vertical climbing does
However, all primates do 'vertical climbing'
(even humans). So why and when did some
of them adopt a new morphology -- a broad
flat chest (in place of a narrow, deep one)
a more central spine, loss of a tail, a shift of
the shoulder scapulae from the side to the
back & longer arms?
Please don't say it was something to do
with wading.
Where do gorillas fit in?
Where do gorillas fit in?
Saying "Apes can't swim" is debunked.
Any ape swimming disproves your claim, and humans are apes. Right?
Gorillas like Chimps evolved into the knuckle walking forest dwellers. If our aquatic ancestors began before gorillas, which I believe they did, all their selective pressure has been away from the water and towards the forest.
However, all primates do 'vertical climbing'
(even humans). So why and when did some
of them adopt a new morphology -- a broad
flat chest (in place of a narrow, deep one)
a more central spine, loss of a tail, a shift of
the shoulder scapulae from the side to the
back & longer arms?
Please don't say it was something to do
with wading.
:-) What else, Pauli?
Only incredible imbeciles believe it has something to do with running after antelopes.
However, all primates do 'vertical climbing'
(even humans). So why and when did some
of them adopt a new morphology -- a broad
flat chest (in place of a narrow, deep one)
a more central spine, loss of a tail, a shift of
the shoulder scapulae from the side to the
back & longer arms?
Please don't say it was something to do
with wading.
:-) What else, Pauli?
I've told you '. . what else . . ' and you referred to it.
When a small monkey evolved into a gibbon,
around 25 ma,
it had bring in all these drastic
morphological changes. In the process, it lost
its ability to swim.
This didn't matter much
at the time, since it was in the high canopy,
and could brachiate across most rivers.
Only incredible imbeciles believe it has something to do with running after antelopes.
Sure, sure. But there's no need to repeat
that endlessly around here. It's not a prayer.
...
B) That this was SLOW brachiation . . .?slow brachiation doesn't exist,
vertical climbing does
On Monday, December 27, 2021 at 1:07:18 AM UTC, DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves wrote:
So you're saying
A) That European miocene apes evolved from
monkeys and were the first apes, and that
they were first primates to develop
brachiation . . . ?
B) That this was SLOW brachiation . . .?
C) That they did this BEFORE some migrated
to SE Asia, where some descendants evolved
FAST brachiation and became gibbons . . . ?
D) That those remaining in Europe were the
ancestors of gorillas and chimps, while those
moving to SE Asia were the ancestors of
orangutans . . . ?
That is one logical possibility, but put the miocene ape expansion center around the southern Black SeaThe exact geographical location of this supposed
event is entirely beside the point.
species do not evolve -- for no particular reason --
at great cost and over much time, new body
plans.
Giraffes didn't get long necks so that they could
survey the country better, and then discover
that they could eat the leaves of high trees.
Scorpions didn't evolve stinging tails to impress
potential mates, and then discover that they
were handy for killing prey and scaring off
potential predators . . etc., etc.
I Envy JTEM wrote:
Where do gorillas fit in?
Saying "Apes can't swim" is debunked.
I never said it. I said gibbons can't swim.
Checkmate...
Paul Crowley wrote:
I Envy JTEM wrote:
Where do gorillas fit in?
Saying "Apes can't swim" is debunked.
I never said it. I said gibbons can't swim.: So our monkey ancestors certainly could
: swim -- as well as any monkeys today. But apes can't.
Although it doesn't come down to a sentence here or there.
It is what you entire post is about -- this stupid claim -- and
you're not even aware of what you said.
Damn.
Sure you lack reading comprehension but, DAMN! THESE ARE
YOUR OWN WORDS, YOUR OWN POST that you can't
comprehend!
Are you a bot r genuinely retarded?
-- --r.
https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/671765524639825920/
Which is that
species do not evolve -- for no particular reason --
at great cost and over much time, new body
plans.
They do when it is advantageous.
When a small monkey evolved into a gibbon,
around 25 ma,
small??
Hylobatids have rel.long gestation: this suggests larger ancestors.
This didn't matter much
at the time, since it was in the high canopy,
No, no, Pauli, it was in the very low canopy.
Hylobatid brachiation evolved probably much later, after contact with
pongids
All today's fast lateral brachiators evolved from slow lateral
brachiators which also climbed vertically.
Checkmate...
Saying "Apes can't swim" is debunked.
I never said it. I said gibbons can't swim.
: So our monkey ancestors certainly could
: swim -- as well as any monkeys today. But apes can't.
Although it doesn't come down to a sentence here or there.
It is what you entire post is about -- this stupid claim -- and
you're not even aware of what you said.
On Monday, December 27, 2021 at 11:09:56 AM UTC-5, Paul Crowley wrote:
On Monday, December 27, 2021 at 1:07:18 AM UTC, DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves wrote:
So you're saying
A) That European miocene apes evolved from
monkeys and were the first apes, and that
they were first primates to develop
brachiation . . . ?
B) That this was SLOW brachiation . . .?
C) That they did this BEFORE some migrated
to SE Asia, where some descendants evolved
FAST brachiation and became gibbons . . . ?
D) That those remaining in Europe were the
ancestors of gorillas and chimps, while those
moving to SE Asia were the ancestors of
orangutans . . . ?
No, not in Swiss Alps nor Norway, but Germany, Austria, Bulgaria, Hungary, Greece, Spain had fossils but the expansion probably spread out from the Black Sea region.That is one logical possibility, but put the miocene ape expansion center around the southern Black SeaThe exact geographical location of this supposed
event is entirely beside the point.
Which is that
species do not evolve -- for no particular reason --They do when it is advantageous.
at great cost and over much time, new body
plans.
Giraffes didn't get long necks so that they could
survey the country better, and then discover
that they could eat the leaves of high trees.
Scorpions didn't evolve stinging tails to impress
potential mates, and then discover that they
were handy for killing prey and scaring off
potential predators . . etc., etc.
This is what happens when you ignore the
cardinal rule: "Never wrestle with a pig".
To say that it's disproved because humans can swim
When a small monkey evolved into a gibbon,
around 25 ma,
small??
Hylobatids have rel.long gestation: this suggests larger ancestors.
A very thin branch on which to hang such a
weighty conclusion.
Hylobatids live at least twice as long as most
monkeys. Maturation times are also roughly
double.
The slow maturation and slow
gestation suggest that the necessary levels
of skill (and knowledge?) are much harder
to acquire.
1. From studies of both wild and captive animals, gibbons are thought
to reach sexual maturity at about 6 to 8 years of age, and the siamang (Hylobates syndactylus) at about 8 to 9 years. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31952414/ >
2. Age at puberty is given, and some variation discussed. The talapoin,
a very small monkey, becomes adult at 4½ years for females, 1 or 2
years later for males. The patas, a rather large monkey, becomes adult
at 2½ years, for females, and 1 or 2 years later for males. https://www.karger.com/Article/Pdf/155792
This didn't matter much
at the time, since it was in the high canopy,
No, no, Pauli, it was in the very low canopy.
If they'd lived in the low canopy, they'd have
encountered bodies of water much more
often and retained their ability to swim.
Hylobatid brachiation evolved probably much later, after contact with pongids
Since this is what you've always assumed,
why then, it must be true.
When a small monkey evolved into a gibbon,
around 25 ma,
No monkey ever evolved into a gibbon.
Cercopithecoid/hominoid ? c 30 Ma.
early hominoids were much larger.
The slow maturation and slow
gestation suggest that the necessary levels
of skill (and knowledge?) are much harder
to acquire.
Wishful thinking.
1. From studies of both wild and captive animals, gibbons are thought
to reach sexual maturity at about 6 to 8 years of age, and the siamang
(Hylobates syndactylus) at about 8 to 9 years.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31952414/ >
2. Age at puberty is given, and some variation discussed. The talapoin,
a very small monkey, becomes adult at 4½ years for females, 1 or 2
years later for males. The patas, a rather large monkey, becomes adult
at 2½ years, for females, and 1 or 2 years later for males.
https://www.karger.com/Article/Pdf/155792
Fine, confirms my view.
This didn't matter much
at the time, since it was in the high canopy,
No, no, Pauli, it was in the very low canopy.
If they'd lived in the low canopy, they'd have
encountered bodies of water much more
often and retained their ability to swim.
Homonid/pongid c 15 Ma (= Mesopotamian Seaway closure??):
hylobatids had >10 My to lose swimming abilities.
Hylobatid brachiation evolved probably much later, after contact with
pongids
Since this is what you've always assumed,
why then, it must be true.
Of course, obvious to anybody with a little bit of biological insight: hominoids (vs monkeys):
-tail loss (coccyx in pelvic bottom)
-central (not dorsal) spine
-very wide sternum (Latisternalia)
-very wide thorax = upright
-very wide pelvis
-arms & legs laterally-directed (not ventrally)
-found on islands
-etc.
IOW, they were not pronograde,
the trunk didn't hang from the spine as in cercopiths,
but a centrally-placed spine held the body upright:
early hominoids were often vertical & not exclusively arboreal (e.g. no tail):
Of course, obvious to anybody with a little bit of biological insight: hominoids (vs monkeys):
-tail loss (coccyx in pelvic bottom)
-central (not dorsal) spine
-very wide sternum (Latisternalia)
-very wide thorax = upright
-very wide pelvis
-arms & legs laterally-directed (not ventrally)
-found on islands
-etc.
IOW, they were not pronograde,
the trunk didn't hang from the spine as in cercopiths,
but a centrally-placed spine held the body upright:
early hominoids were often vertical & not exclusively arboreal (e.g. no tail):
Why recite all this again?
On Thursday, December 23, 2021 at 6:09:57 PM UTC-5, Paul Crowley wrote:
See vertical climber: https://youtu.be/Gregory
Lateral swinging habitually selected against pronograde swimming, and supplanted it over wooded streams.
Laryngeal air sacs may have enlarged as upright floats to keep head above surface and grasping branches became an alternative to swimming in larger apes.
So our monkey ancestors certainly could
swim -- as well as any monkeys today. But apes can't.
So when and why did that happen? What were the
selective advantages in losing that ability?
See vertical climber: https://youtu.be/Gregory
Lateral swinging habitually selected against pronograde
swimming, and supplanted it over wooded streams.
Laryngeal air sacs may have enlarged as upright floats to keep
head above surface and grasping branches became an alternative
to swimming in larger apes.
Crocs.
The European miocene apes (quasi-hylobatids) could
probably still swim while evolving slow brachiation, but those in
tropical Africa/Asia became non-swimmers.
On Sunday 26 December 2021 at 14:20:31 UTC, DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves wrote:
So our monkey ancestors certainly could
swim -- as well as any monkeys today. But apes can't.
So when and why did that happen? What were the
selective advantages in losing that ability?
See vertical climber: https://youtu.be/GregoryHas been removed from youtube
Lateral swinging habitually selected against pronogradeThis is nonsense. The loss of an inherited
swimming, and supplanted it over wooded streams.
ability (going back to the first mammals)
is a major event. 'Lateral swinging' is not
going to remove it.
There was a major evolutionary event inSlow swinging, loss of arb. leaping/terr. walking laterally.
the ape taxon which selected against
swimming. What was it?
Laryngeal air sacs may have enlarged as upright floats to keepJust silly. Larger apes will encounter bodies of
head above surface and grasping branches became an alternative
to swimming in larger apes.
water regularly in their daily lives.
will be food (and other resources) on an island
in a lake or river, or on the other side of a river.
Often there will be plants in the water they find
edible, or which contain vital elements (such a
iodine). When populations need to move,
migration over a river or other body of water is
often highly desirable. They'll fall into water
(by accident) at least once in their lifetimes, on
average.
Crocs.
All other primates can see, and usually avoid
crocs.
The European miocene apes (quasi-hylobatids) couldWhy the difference?
probably still swim while evolving slow brachiation, but those in
tropical Africa/Asia became non-swimmers.
I realized I wasn't really answering your deeper question about brachiation and swimming. I've got a new Motorola cell phone coming, I'll respond when its activated. My current phone is corrupted, constantly need to fix keyboard errors.
On Tuesday, December 28, 2021 at 2:44:47 AM UTC-5, DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves wrote:I'll let PC re-ask the question. My phone is great.
On Monday, December 27, 2021 at 11:09:56 AM UTC-5, Paul Crowley wrote:
On Monday, December 27, 2021 at 1:07:18 AM UTC, DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves wrote:
So you're saying
A) That European miocene apes evolved from
monkeys and were the first apes, and that
they were first primates to develop
brachiation . . . ?
B) That this was SLOW brachiation . . .?
C) That they did this BEFORE some migrated
to SE Asia, where some descendants evolved
FAST brachiation and became gibbons . . . ?
D) That those remaining in Europe were the
ancestors of gorillas and chimps, while those
moving to SE Asia were the ancestors of
orangutans . . . ?
No, not in Swiss Alps nor Norway, but Germany, Austria, Bulgaria, Hungary, Greece, Spain had fossils but the expansion probably spread out from the Black Sea region.That is one logical possibility, but put the miocene ape expansion center around the southern Black SeaThe exact geographical location of this supposed
event is entirely beside the point.
Which is that
species do not evolve -- for no particular reason --They do when it is advantageous.
at great cost and over much time, new body
plans.
I realized I wasn't really answering your deeper question about brachiation and swimming. I've got a new Motorola cell phone coming, I'll respond when its activated. My current phone is corrupted, constantly need to fix keyboard errors.Giraffes didn't get long necks so that they could
survey the country better, and then discover
that they could eat the leaves of high trees.
Scorpions didn't evolve stinging tails to impress
potential mates, and then discover that they
were handy for killing prey and scaring off
potential predators . . etc., etc.
Which is that
species do not evolve -- for no particular reason --
at great cost and over much time, new body
plans.
They do when it is advantageous.
Giraffes didn't get long necks so that they could
survey the country better, and then discover
that they could eat the leaves of high trees
I realized I wasn't really answering your deeper question about brachiation >> and swimming. I've got a new Motorola cell phone coming, I'll respond
when its activated. My current phone is corrupted, constantly need to fix
keyboard errors.
I'll let PC re-ask the question. My phone is great.
On Thursday 3 March 2022 at 17:40:39 UTC, DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves wrote:
Which is that
species do not evolve -- for no particular reason --
at great cost and over much time, new body
plans.
They do when it is advantageous.
I realized I wasn't really answering your deeper question about brachiationGiraffes didn't get long necks so that they could
survey the country better, and then discover
that they could eat the leaves of high trees
and swimming. I've got a new Motorola cell phone coming, I'll respond
when its activated. My current phone is corrupted, constantly need to fix >> keyboard errors.
I'll let PC re-ask the question. My phone is great.The initial question was "Why can't apes swim?"
That leads to others, such as: "How did the ape
taxon form?"
Unlike nearly every other terrestrial vertebrate,
they are not born with that capacity. Some
(e.g. humans) can acquire the skill with
training.
You say that 'slow climbing'
did it -- while admitting that those behaviours
are common among monkeys none of which
lost their ability to swim (nor evolved
brachiation, centralised spines,flat chests, etc.).
The loss of swimming abiilty might seem fairly
minor but, since it's virtually unknown among
reptiles and mammals, it can't be. I suggest
that it arose in apes in a similar manner to the
loss of flying ability in many species of island
birds. They evolve a distaste for flying over
water since, in strong winds, they can get
blown away over the sea and can't get back.
Likewise, gibbons almost certainly evolved on
an island in South-East Asia surrounded by
fast-flowing rivers. Swimming was likely to
have the same effect. They learnt to avoid
bodies of water.
Clearly the loss of this ability came in at the
inception of the ape taxon, along with the
large number of radical morphological changes
(including -- as a minor matter --the loss of the
tail). Chests became wide and flat instead of
narrow and deep; shoulder joints moved to the
top corners of the chest, the scapulae moved
from the side of the chest to the back.
Shoulder joints became much stronger and
more flexible.
As the rivers changed course, the first
population of gibbons was able to spread to
other areas, and become a diverse taxon. Some
of its species became larger (as we see with
modern siamangs) and found new niches lower
in the canopy, eventually finding their way to
Europe and Africa.
On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 3:49:48 PM UTC-5, Paul Crowley wrote:became less and less useful. Laryngeal air sacs developed as a result of panic-stimuli (dominance upper body inflated, vocal hyperventilation prevention, and probably arboreal falls producing water upper-body/face-up flotation rather than pronograde
On Thursday 3 March 2022 at 17:40:39 UTC, DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves wrote:
Which is that
species do not evolve -- for no particular reason --
at great cost and over much time, new body
plans.
They do when it is advantageous.
I realized I wasn't really answering your deeper question about brachiationGiraffes didn't get long necks so that they could
survey the country better, and then discover
that they could eat the leaves of high trees
and swimming. I've got a new Motorola cell phone coming, I'll respond >> when its activated. My current phone is corrupted, constantly need to fix
keyboard errors.
Apes /hominoids evolved vertical upright climbing and lateral upright slow brachiation and arboreal upright bipedal locomotion, their hands and feet specialized for grasping, hook-like features gradually increased but weren't present yet, and swimmingI'll let PC re-ask the question. My phone is great.The initial question was "Why can't apes swim?"
significant than quiet speech and leg power in lateral upright bipedalism with carrying toddlers/shelters/tools.That leads to others, such as: "How did the ape
taxon form?"
Unlike nearly every other terrestrial vertebrate,Homo split from other hominoids ~6ma becoming forest floor dwellers due to the chromosome inversion and inverted their shelters and their body's limb lengths, and lost their small? air sacs because loud vocal & upper-body displays became less
they are not born with that capacity. Some
(e.g. humans) can acquire the skill with
training.
aquaticallyYou say that 'slow climbing'I never mentioned 'slow climbing' before, just upright vertical climbing and slow brachiation in early hominoids, further specialized by today's great apes. No Old World Monkey had these traits, being primarily pronograde terrestrially, arboreally and
(or some such)
did it -- while admitting that those behaviours
are common among monkeys none of which
lost their ability to swim (nor evolved
brachiation, centralised spines,flat chests, etc.).
The loss of swimming abiilty might seem fairlyGibbons primary habitat is rainforest along shallow streams, not large rivers, though that may be a result of immigration of monkey troops foraging along rivers.
minor but, since it's virtually unknown among
reptiles and mammals, it can't be. I suggest
that it arose in apes in a similar manner to the
loss of flying ability in many species of island
birds. They evolve a distaste for flying over
water since, in strong winds, they can get
blown away over the sea and can't get back.
Likewise, gibbons almost certainly evolved on
an island in South-East Asia surrounded by
fast-flowing rivers. Swimming was likely to
have the same effect. They learnt to avoid
bodies of water.
Contd
Clearly the loss of this ability came in at the
inception of the ape taxon, along with the
large number of radical morphological changes
(including -- as a minor matter --the loss of the
tail).
narrow and deep;
top corners of the chest, the scapulae moved
from the side of the chest to the back.
Shoulder joints became much stronger and
more flexible.
As the rivers changed course, the first
population of gibbons was able to spread to
other areas, and become a diverse taxon. Some
of its species became larger (as we see with
modern siamangs) and found new niches lower
in the canopy, eventually finding their way to
Europe and Africa.
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