The crisis the west is facing is personalized by the likes of Henk and Andy...
Let's all hear what Amnesty International (which Henk and Andy hold in high regards) had to say about Israel 2 days ago:
"Demolish Apartheid, not Palestinian Homes.
Demolish Apartheid, not Palestinian Homes.
Demolish Apartheid, not Palestinian Homes.
Demolish Apartheid, not Palestinian Homes. "
https://twitter.com/amnesty/status/1638204572484214784
Henk and Andy can chant along. And Pluted can join as well.
Let's all hear what Amnesty International (which Henk and Andy hold in high regards) had to say about Israel 2 days ago:
https://youtu.be/zrhhEJlw-e4
All resident and visiting philosophers, thinkers,
pundits, spectators, tinkerers, kibbitzers, are
kindly invited to comment. I will stay out of
the fray.
TIA
On Thursday, 23 March 2023 at 10:51:16 UTC, Marc S wrote:
Let's all hear what Amnesty International (which Henk and Andy hold in high regards) had to say about Israel 2 days ago:I see the insects have started coming out of the woodwork again......
Andy Evans schrieb am Donnerstag, 23. März 2023 um 12:02:30 UTC+1:
On Thursday, 23 March 2023 at 10:51:16 UTC, Marc S wrote:Oh, now I am an insect... reminds me of how Nazis talked about jewish rats - you sure no how to dehumanize people. The so-called "liberals" of the UK... lol
Let's all hear what Amnesty International (which Henk and Andy hold in high regards) had to say about Israel 2 days ago:I see the insects have started coming out of the woodwork again......
Are you a friend of Roger Waters?
Yet another thread on antisemitism is about as welcome here as a turd on an île flottante.....
Dress up any old Tom, Dick or Harriet to look important and stick them in front of a camera to simulate a current affairs or news item and what do you get....?
.....any old Tom, Dick or Harriet and whatever random noises come out of their mouths. No more, no less. The "power of the Internet" is just an illusion.
Op donderdag 23 maart 2023 om 11:47:10 UTC+1 schreef Andy Evans:
Dress up any old Tom, Dick or Harriet to look important and stick them in front of a camera to simulate a current affairs or news item and what do you get....?
.....any old Tom, Dick or Harriet and whatever random noises come out of their mouths. No more, no less. The "power of the Internet" is just an illusion.Don't underestimate the power of the Internet. The CIS has 53K followers who believe they are libertarians but have become victims, like Maya Khurana, of Western propaganda.
Henk
Interestingly even the EU-parliament considers Amnesty International antisemitic (using the same argumentation as I do wrt the antisemitic statements by Henk and Andy):State of Israel in 1948 and has been built on and maintained by successive Israeli governments.
Question: https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-9-2022-000932_EN.html
"On 1 February 2022, Amnesty International issued a report entitled ‘Israel’s Apartheid against Palestinians – a cruel system of domination and a crime against humanity’ in which it alleges that apartheid was inherent in the founding of the
1. Does the Vice-President of the Commission / High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy (VP/HR) regard Israel as an apartheid state, given that – among others – Israel was created based on UN Resolution 181, morethan 10 % of Knesset Members are Arab Israelis, there are Arab Israeli judges, including at the Supreme Court, and an Arab party forms part of the current government?
2. Does the VP/HR regard the report as antisemitic in the light of the non-legally binding International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance definition of antisemitism, given that it claims that the existence of the State of Israel is a racist endeavor (i.e.an apartheid state)?"
Answer: https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-9-2022-000932-ASW_EN.htmlexistence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavour is amongst the illustrative examples included under the IHRA definition.
"The Commission is aware of the report referred to by the Honourable Members and is giving it due attention. In any case, the Commission considers that it is not appropriate to use the term apartheid in connection with the State of Israel.
The Commission uses the non-legally binding working definition of antisemitism of the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance (IHRA definition) as a practical guidance tool and a basis for its work to combat antisemitism. Claiming that the
The EU and its Member States will continue to closely monitor the developments on the ground. The respect of international humanitarian law and international human rights law by state and non-state actors, and accountability for violations committed,are a cornerstone for peace and security in the Middle East region.
The EU remains committed to a negotiated two-State solution, based on international law, the 1967 lines, with equivalent land swaps, as may be agreed between the parties, with the State of Israel and an independent, democratic, contiguous, sovereignand viable State of Palestine[1], living side by side in peace, security and mutual recognition."
-- Instead of reflecting; antisemites like Henk and Andy will ofc continue to read and cite Amnesty, err Antisemitic International and Al Jazeera.
And these are the people who consider themselves "well-read", "educated" and "doing the right thing"... can't make this shit up.
Marc S schrieb am Donnerstag, 23. März 2023 um 18:30:34 UTC+1:State of Israel in 1948 and has been built on and maintained by successive Israeli governments.
Interestingly even the EU-parliament considers Amnesty International antisemitic (using the same argumentation as I do wrt the antisemitic statements by Henk and Andy):
Question: https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-9-2022-000932_EN.html
"On 1 February 2022, Amnesty International issued a report entitled ‘Israel’s Apartheid against Palestinians – a cruel system of domination and a crime against humanity’ in which it alleges that apartheid was inherent in the founding of the
than 10 % of Knesset Members are Arab Israelis, there are Arab Israeli judges, including at the Supreme Court, and an Arab party forms part of the current government?1. Does the Vice-President of the Commission / High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy (VP/HR) regard Israel as an apartheid state, given that – among others – Israel was created based on UN Resolution 181, more
e. an apartheid state)?"2. Does the VP/HR regard the report as antisemitic in the light of the non-legally binding International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance definition of antisemitism, given that it claims that the existence of the State of Israel is a racist endeavor (i.
existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavour is amongst the illustrative examples included under the IHRA definition.Answer: https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-9-2022-000932-ASW_EN.html
"The Commission is aware of the report referred to by the Honourable Members and is giving it due attention. In any case, the Commission considers that it is not appropriate to use the term apartheid in connection with the State of Israel.
The Commission uses the non-legally binding working definition of antisemitism of the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance (IHRA definition) as a practical guidance tool and a basis for its work to combat antisemitism. Claiming that the
are a cornerstone for peace and security in the Middle East region.The EU and its Member States will continue to closely monitor the developments on the ground. The respect of international humanitarian law and international human rights law by state and non-state actors, and accountability for violations committed,
and viable State of Palestine[1], living side by side in peace, security and mutual recognition."The EU remains committed to a negotiated two-State solution, based on international law, the 1967 lines, with equivalent land swaps, as may be agreed between the parties, with the State of Israel and an independent, democratic, contiguous, sovereign
-- Instead of reflecting; antisemites like Henk and Andy will ofc continue to read and cite Amnesty, err Antisemitic International and Al Jazeera.
And these are the people who consider themselves "well-read", "educated" and "doing the right thing"... can't make this shit up.and not only that: but these are antisemites who consider themselves not to be antisemites... it's just ridiculous.
Marc S schrieb am Donnerstag, 23. März 2023 um 18:41:03 UTC+1:State of Israel in 1948 and has been built on and maintained by successive Israeli governments.
Marc S schrieb am Donnerstag, 23. März 2023 um 18:30:34 UTC+1:
Interestingly even the EU-parliament considers Amnesty International antisemitic (using the same argumentation as I do wrt the antisemitic statements by Henk and Andy):
Question: https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-9-2022-000932_EN.html
"On 1 February 2022, Amnesty International issued a report entitled ‘Israel’s Apartheid against Palestinians – a cruel system of domination and a crime against humanity’ in which it alleges that apartheid was inherent in the founding of the
than 10 % of Knesset Members are Arab Israelis, there are Arab Israeli judges, including at the Supreme Court, and an Arab party forms part of the current government?1. Does the Vice-President of the Commission / High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy (VP/HR) regard Israel as an apartheid state, given that – among others – Israel was created based on UN Resolution 181, more
i.e. an apartheid state)?"2. Does the VP/HR regard the report as antisemitic in the light of the non-legally binding International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance definition of antisemitism, given that it claims that the existence of the State of Israel is a racist endeavor (
existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavour is amongst the illustrative examples included under the IHRA definition.Answer: https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-9-2022-000932-ASW_EN.html
"The Commission is aware of the report referred to by the Honourable Members and is giving it due attention. In any case, the Commission considers that it is not appropriate to use the term apartheid in connection with the State of Israel.
The Commission uses the non-legally binding working definition of antisemitism of the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance (IHRA definition) as a practical guidance tool and a basis for its work to combat antisemitism. Claiming that the
committed, are a cornerstone for peace and security in the Middle East region.The EU and its Member States will continue to closely monitor the developments on the ground. The respect of international humanitarian law and international human rights law by state and non-state actors, and accountability for violations
sovereign and viable State of Palestine[1], living side by side in peace, security and mutual recognition."The EU remains committed to a negotiated two-State solution, based on international law, the 1967 lines, with equivalent land swaps, as may be agreed between the parties, with the State of Israel and an independent, democratic, contiguous,
-- Instead of reflecting; antisemites like Henk and Andy will ofc continue to read and cite Amnesty, err Antisemitic International and Al Jazeera.
*I meant to say hilarious; i used the wrong word.And these are the people who consider themselves "well-read", "educated" and "doing the right thing"... can't make this shit up.and not only that: but these are antisemites who consider themselves not to be antisemites... it's just ridiculous.
Op donderdag 23 maart 2023 om 18:42:23 UTC+1 schreef Marc S:the State of Israel in 1948 and has been built on and maintained by successive Israeli governments.
Marc S schrieb am Donnerstag, 23. März 2023 um 18:41:03 UTC+1:
Marc S schrieb am Donnerstag, 23. März 2023 um 18:30:34 UTC+1:
Interestingly even the EU-parliament considers Amnesty International antisemitic (using the same argumentation as I do wrt the antisemitic statements by Henk and Andy):
Question: https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-9-2022-000932_EN.html
"On 1 February 2022, Amnesty International issued a report entitled ‘Israel’s Apartheid against Palestinians – a cruel system of domination and a crime against humanity’ in which it alleges that apartheid was inherent in the founding of
more than 10 % of Knesset Members are Arab Israelis, there are Arab Israeli judges, including at the Supreme Court, and an Arab party forms part of the current government?1. Does the Vice-President of the Commission / High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy (VP/HR) regard Israel as an apartheid state, given that – among others – Israel was created based on UN Resolution 181,
endeavor (i.e. an apartheid state)?"2. Does the VP/HR regard the report as antisemitic in the light of the non-legally binding International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance definition of antisemitism, given that it claims that the existence of the State of Israel is a racist
existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavour is amongst the illustrative examples included under the IHRA definition.Answer: https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-9-2022-000932-ASW_EN.html
"The Commission is aware of the report referred to by the Honourable Members and is giving it due attention. In any case, the Commission considers that it is not appropriate to use the term apartheid in connection with the State of Israel.
The Commission uses the non-legally binding working definition of antisemitism of the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance (IHRA definition) as a practical guidance tool and a basis for its work to combat antisemitism. Claiming that the
committed, are a cornerstone for peace and security in the Middle East region.The EU and its Member States will continue to closely monitor the developments on the ground. The respect of international humanitarian law and international human rights law by state and non-state actors, and accountability for violations
sovereign and viable State of Palestine[1], living side by side in peace, security and mutual recognition."The EU remains committed to a negotiated two-State solution, based on international law, the 1967 lines, with equivalent land swaps, as may be agreed between the parties, with the State of Israel and an independent, democratic, contiguous,
-- Instead of reflecting; antisemites like Henk and Andy will ofc continue to read and cite Amnesty, err Antisemitic International and Al Jazeera.
Who cares?*I meant to say hilarious; i used the wrong word.And these are the people who consider themselves "well-read", "educated" and "doing the right thing"... can't make this shit up.and not only that: but these are antisemites who consider themselves not to be antisemites... it's just ridiculous.
https://youtu.be/zrhhEJlw-e4
All resident and visiting philosophers, thinkers,
pundits, spectators, tinkerers, kibbitzers, are
kindly invited to comment. I will stay out of
the fray.
Op donderdag 23 maart 2023 om 08:11:44 UTC+1 schreef Dan Koren:
https://youtu.be/zrhhEJlw-e4
All resident and visiting philosophers, thinkers,
pundits, spectators, tinkerers, kibbitzers, are
kindly invited to comment. I will stay out of
the fray.
TIA
CIS is an Australian libertarian think-tank. It's a "classical libertarian" organization, according to Wiki. We may expect a typical Anglo-Saxon (colonialist, imperialist) view of the world.
Henk
On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 12:11:44 AM UTC-7, Dan Koren wrote:
https://youtu.be/zrhhEJlw-e4
All resident and visiting philosophers, thinkers,
pundits, spectators, tinkerers, kibbitzers, are
kindly invited to comment. I will stay out of
the fray.
So far I have not seen any real, professional
discussion as requested. Only mud slinging
by known parties.
dk
On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 12:11:44???AM UTC-7, Dan Koren wrote:
https://youtu.be/zrhhEJlw-e4
All resident and visiting philosophers, thinkers,
pundits, spectators, tinkerers, kibbitzers, are
kindly invited to comment. I will stay out of
the fray.
So far I have not seen any real, professional
discussion as requested. Only mud slinging
by known parties.
On Thu, 23 Mar 2023 18:15:08 -0700, Dan Koren wrote:
On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 12:11:44???AM UTC-7, Dan Koren wrote:
https://youtu.be/zrhhEJlw-e4
All resident and visiting philosophers, thinkers,
pundits, spectators, tinkerers, kibbitzers, are
kindly invited to comment. I will stay out of
the fray.
So far I have not seen any real, professional
discussion as requested. Only mud slinging
by known parties.
The link has no useful description to the video,
so I take it as not worth viewing, just another
troll video. If they have a point they'll say
it in writing.
https://youtu.be/zrhhEJlw-e4
All resident and visiting philosophers, thinkers,
pundits, spectators, tinkerers, kibbitzers, are
kindly invited to comment. I will stay out of
the fray.
TIA
the woke people here don't even realize how woke they
are themselves (Andy, Henk, Herman, Gerard, mswd etc).
Dan Koren schrieb am Donnerstag, 23. März 2023 um 08:11:44 UTC+1:China; just checked their page).
https://youtu.be/zrhhEJlw-e4
All resident and visiting philosophers, thinkers,
pundits, spectators, tinkerers, kibbitzers, are
kindly invited to comment. I will stay out of
the fray.
TIAWhat I said before was bullshit... It just dawned upon me that I misunderstood the research program (China and free societies; I thought they viewed China as a free society... while they actually address the problems free societies face because of
After having realized this, I actually watched the video.mswd etc).
She says right things, but I guess also some wrong things... the problem is that she is too condensed. The problems she is naming all need to be elaborated further; explaining them etc.
For sure she is right about "cancel culture" and people "needing safe places" (you see Herman getting "offended" by opinions different from his own, needing a safe place; or people like you Dan "boycotting" spotify because of Joe Rogan).
Basically Twitter was a safe place for all the woke people before Elon Musk (who I don't fancy, but who did many right things with Twitter) took over. And the woke people here don't even realize how woke they are themselves (Andy, Henk, Herman, Gerard,
Glad the things have changed on Twitter.
On Friday, March 24, 2023 at 2:09:06 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
the woke people here don't even realize how woke they
are themselves (Andy, Henk, Herman, Gerard, mswd etc).
There is no wokeness on r.m.c.r.. Only yawness.
dk
It says "classical liberal" not "classical libertarian." The article says nothing about foreign policy. I would be surprised if the CIS is colonialist or imperialist. There are many strains in Libertarianism (certainly more than I understand), somevirtually isolationist. Some libertarians believe that a non-representative government has no rights, such that a representative government trying to overthrow it is ethical and moral. Whether it is smart is a different matter.
Indeed. It is a libertarian think tank focussing on classical liberal issues.
Henk
On Friday, 24 March 2023 at 09:53:50 UTC, HT wrote:in the process of monetising and speculating on water to see how they can profit from trading water. Libertarianism is for the rich and privileged, not the common man or the planet.
Indeed. It is a libertarian think tank focussing on classical liberal issues.Libertarian thinking and economics is the last thing we need in a new world where legislation and government action needs to control fossil fuel emissions. The free market has no chance of enforcing the action needed. No chance at all. Bankers are now
Henk
On Friday, 24 March 2023 at 09:53:50 UTC, HT wrote:in the process of monetising and speculating on water to see how they can profit from trading water. Libertarianism is for the rich and privileged, not the common man or the planet.
Indeed. It is a libertarian think tank focussing on classical liberal issues.Libertarian thinking and economics is the last thing we need in a new world where legislation and government action needs to control fossil fuel emissions. The free market has no chance of enforcing the action needed. No chance at all. Bankers are now
Henk
On Friday, 24 March 2023 at 09:53:50 UTC, HT wrote:
Indeed. It is a libertarian think tank focussing on classical liberal issues.
Libertarian thinking and economics is the last thing we need in a new world where legislation and government action needs to control fossil
fuel emissions. The free market has no chance of enforcing the action needed. No chance at all. Bankers are now in the process of monetising
and speculating on water to see how they can profit from trading water. Libertarianism is for the rich and privileged, not the common man or the planet.
Op vrijdag 24 maart 2023 om 11:28:47 UTC+1 schreef Andy Evans:now in the process of monetising and speculating on water to see how they can profit from trading water. Libertarianism is for the rich and privileged, not the common man or the planet.
On Friday, 24 March 2023 at 09:53:50 UTC, HT wrote:
Indeed. It is a libertarian think tank focussing on classical liberal issues.Libertarian thinking and economics is the last thing we need in a new world where legislation and government action needs to control fossil fuel emissions. The free market has no chance of enforcing the action needed. No chance at all. Bankers are
Henk
As Frank says, there are all kinds of libertarians. The CIS promotes Western values. That missionary zeal is the root of all evil."
Just one example (innocent compared to what happens in the rest of the world):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQB64C7GqoY
Unless we drastically change our value-system, we won't be able save Homo sapiens.
Henk
HT schrieb am Freitag, 24. März 2023 um 11:58:51 UTC+1:now in the process of monetising and speculating on water to see how they can profit from trading water. Libertarianism is for the rich and privileged, not the common man or the planet.
Op vrijdag 24 maart 2023 om 11:28:47 UTC+1 schreef Andy Evans:
On Friday, 24 March 2023 at 09:53:50 UTC, HT wrote:
Indeed. It is a libertarian think tank focussing on classical liberal issues.Libertarian thinking and economics is the last thing we need in a new world where legislation and government action needs to control fossil fuel emissions. The free market has no chance of enforcing the action needed. No chance at all. Bankers are
Henk
men; no need to hate yourself, Henk; you really are not that bad. Maybe it's time for "Palestinians" and the Afghans and the like to adopt some western values?As Frank says, there are all kinds of libertarians. The CIS promotes Western values. That missionary zeal is the root of all evil."
South Korea, Japan and Hongkong seem to have been doing quite well after adopting Western values... Promoting western values does not seem like "the root of all evil" to me... Henk, you seem "a bit" brainwashed - "root of all evil" = west and the white
Your hatred for the west seems to be much more problematic than "Western values".
Just one example (innocent compared to what happens in the rest of the world):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQB64C7GqoY
Unless we drastically change our value-system, we won't be able save Homo sapiens.lol... Henk, no need to be insane... chill out, the world is not going under if we won't "drastically" change our value-system; to me it rather seems that islamic countries and "communist" countries would need to change their value systems...
Leftists like Henk have the following idea: White men are responsible for everything "bad" in the world
- Climate change = because of white men; and if we don't do anything against it, the world will go under
- Promoting Western values is the root of all evil = white men are the root of all evil; and if we don't do anything to change our values, the humans will become extinct...
etc etc
Does anyone see a pattern within leftist politics? Self-hatred, Hatred for the west, White-Guilt etc.
Surely either the Jews or the white men are responsible for all the evil in this world; at least according to all the Henks and Andys.
Oh god must it suck to be Henk or Andy...
Henk
Henk sounds like Chamenei when he says that promoting western values = root of all evil.
How dare we allow Homosexuality - god forbid... not to mention all the other sinful behaviour we allow...
Op vrijdag 24 maart 2023 om 02:31:07 UTC+1 schreef Frank Berger:virtually isolationist. Some libertarians believe that a non-representative government has no rights, such that a representative government trying to overthrow it is ethical and moral. Whether it is smart is a different matter.
It says "classical liberal" not "classical libertarian." The article says nothing about foreign policy. I would be surprised if the CIS is colonialist or imperialist. There are many strains in Libertarianism (certainly more than I understand), some
"The Centre for Independent Studies (CIS) is an Australian libertarian think tank founded in 1976 which specialises in public policy research.[1] It is based in Sydney and focuses on classical liberal issues such as free markets and limited government."
Indeed. It is a libertarian think tank focussing on classical liberal issues.
Henk
Op vrijdag 24 maart 2023 om 11:28:47 UTC+1 schreef Andy Evans:in the process of monetising and speculating on water to see how they can profit from trading water. Libertarianism is for the rich and privileged, not the common man or the planet.
On Friday, 24 March 2023 at 09:53:50 UTC, HT wrote:
Indeed. It is a libertarian think tank focussing on classical liberal issues.Libertarian thinking and economics is the last thing we need in a new world where legislation and government action needs to control fossil fuel emissions. The free market has no chance of enforcing the action needed. No chance at all. Bankers are now
Henk
As Frank says, there are all kinds of libertarians. The CIS promotes Western values. That missionary zeal is the root of all evil.
Just one example (innocent compared to what happens in the rest of the world):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQB64C7GqoY
Unless we drastically change our value-system, we won't be able save Homo sapiens.
Henk
On 3/24/2023 6:58 AM, HT wrote:now in the process of monetising and speculating on water to see how they can profit from trading water. Libertarianism is for the rich and privileged, not the common man or the planet.
Op vrijdag 24 maart 2023 om 11:28:47 UTC+1 schreef Andy Evans:
On Friday, 24 March 2023 at 09:53:50 UTC, HT wrote:
Indeed. It is a libertarian think tank focussing on classical liberal issues.Libertarian thinking and economics is the last thing we need in a new world where legislation and government action needs to control fossil fuel emissions. The free market has no chance of enforcing the action needed. No chance at all. Bankers are
Henk
As Frank says, there are all kinds of libertarians. The CIS promotes Western values. That missionary zeal is the root of all evil.
Just one example (innocent compared to what happens in the rest of the world):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQB64C7GqoY
Unless we drastically change our value-system, we won't be able save Homo sapiens.
HenkWhat if homo sapiens is not worth saving?
I knew that. Did you think you were correcting something I said? Not sure why you didn't address my main point which was about libertarians not generally being colonialist or imperialist.
What if homo sapiens is not worth saving?
I knew that. Did you think you were correcting something I said? Not sure why you didn't address my main point which was about libertarians not generally being colonialist or imperialist.
I was correcting myself. The CIS is colonialist/imperialist. It sees China as the most important threat to Western values.
Henk
Which doesn't make them colonialist/imperialist necessarily, as far as I can see.
Nor do I see how the "values" of a brutal, tyrannical, expansionist regime cannot be a threat to "Western values", assuming by that we mean basic respect for the individual.
One should maybe ask oneself: Were it only the white men that did this
stuff (slavery, colonization etc)? Do islamic countries maybe have a responsibility themselves for their backwardness; similar to how the
Germans had a responsibility themselves for the shoah, and not just
Hitler and the circumstances Germany was in after WW1?
Op vrijdag 24 maart 2023 om 17:06:58 UTC+1 schreef Frank Berger:
Which doesn't make them colonialist/imperialist necessarily, as far as I can see.The CIS feels threatened by non-identity. That would be okay if it looked for ways to learn to live with it. It doesn't.
Nor do I see how the "values" of a brutal, tyrannical, expansionist regime cannot be a threat to "Western values", assuming by that we mean basic respect for the individual.
General Langley of the Africa Corps leaves no doubt that we need not look far for an expansionist regime. His Corps acted entirely in line with American core values by toppling US-unfriendly regimes.
The individual is a recent discovery. Respect for the individual is a Western value in name only. We have never learned how to deal with this phenomenon.
Governments make rules, based on algorithms and (political) majorities. Individuals are able to adapt, or not.. For those who cannot there are special rules that make life unpleasant. Source: current history of the Netherlands.
Henk
HT schrieb am Freitag, 24. März 2023 um 19:04:43 UTC+1:
Op vrijdag 24 maart 2023 om 17:06:58 UTC+1 schreef Frank Berger:
Which doesn't make them colonialist/imperialist necessarily, as far as I can see.The CIS feels threatened by non-identity. That would be okay if it looked for ways to learn to live with it. It doesn't.
Nor do I see how the "values" of a brutal, tyrannical, expansionist regime cannot be a threat to "Western values", assuming by that we mean basic respect for the individual.
General Langley of the Africa Corps leaves no doubt that we need not look far for an expansionist regime. His Corps acted entirely in line with American core values by toppling US-unfriendly regimes.
The individual is a recent discovery. Respect for the individual is a Western value in name only. We have never learned how to deal with this phenomenon.Well... I think it is time for you, Henk, to live under the Taliban and then you might learn that while the west may not be perfect, "the west" respects the individual far more than any other region.
Governments make rules, based on algorithms and (political) majorities. Individuals are able to adapt, or not.. For those who cannot there are special rules that make life unpleasant. Source: current history of the Netherlands.1st world problems... Henk, go live under the Taliban...
Henk
Op vrijdag 24 maart 2023 om 17:06:58 UTC+1 schreef Frank Berger:
Which doesn't make them colonialist/imperialist necessarily, as far as I can see.
The CIS feels threatened by non-identity. That would be okay if it looked for ways to learn to live with it. It doesn't.
Nor do I see how the "values" of a brutal, tyrannical, expansionist regime cannot be a threat to "Western values", assuming by that we mean basic respect for the individual.
General Langley of the Africa Corps leaves no doubt that we need not look far for an expansionist regime. His Corps acted entirely in line with American core values by toppling US-unfriendly regimes.
The individual is a recent discovery. Respect for the individual is a Western value in name only. We have never learned how to deal with this phenomenon.
Governments make rules, based on algorithms and (political) majorities. Individuals are able to adapt, or not.. For those who cannot there are special rules that make life unpleasant. Source: current history of the Netherlands.
Henk
On 2023-03-24 13:52:59 +0000, Marc S said:
One should maybe ask oneself: Were it only the white men that did this stuff (slavery, colonization etc)? Do islamic countries maybe have a responsibility themselves for their backwardness; similar to how the Germans had a responsibility themselves for the shoah, and not just"Guns, Germs and Steel" by Jared Diamond addresses these issues in a
Hitler and the circumstances Germany was in after WW1?
much more broader and deeper sense. It tries to answer the question
posed by a New Guinean politician: "Why is it that you white people developed so much cargo and brought it to New Guinea, but we black
people had little cargo of our own?"
-Owen
The individual is a recent discovery. Respect for the individual is a Western value in name only. We have never learned how to deal with this phenomenon.
Henk
On 2023-03-24 13:52:59 +0000, Marc S said:
One should maybe ask oneself: Were it only the white men that did this stuff (slavery, colonization etc)? Do islamic countries maybe have a responsibility themselves for their backwardness; similar to how the Germans had a responsibility themselves for the shoah, and not just"Guns, Germs and Steel" by Jared Diamond addresses these issues in a
Hitler and the circumstances Germany was in after WW1?
much more broader and deeper sense. It tries to answer the question
posed by a New Guinean politician: "Why is it that you white people developed so much cargo and brought it to New Guinea, but we black
people had little cargo of our own?"
-Owen
On 3/24/2023 2:04 PM, HT wrote:
Op vrijdag 24 maart 2023 om 17:06:58 UTC+1 schreef Frank Berger:
Which doesn't make them colonialist/imperialist necessarily, as far as I can see.
The CIS feels threatened by non-identity. That would be okay if it looked for ways to learn to live with it. It doesn't.
Nor do I see how the "values" of a brutal, tyrannical, expansionist regime cannot be a threat to "Western values", assuming by that we mean basic respect for the individual.
General Langley of the Africa Corps leaves no doubt that we need not look far for an expansionist regime. His Corps acted entirely in line with American core values by toppling US-unfriendly regimes.
The individual is a recent discovery. Respect for the individual is a Western value in name only. We have never learned how to deal with this phenomenon.
Governments make rules, based on algorithms and (political) majorities. Individuals are able to adapt, or not.. For those who cannot there are special rules that make life unpleasant. Source: current history of the Netherlands.
Henk
Nothing is perfect. A vote that counts (even only in aggregation) is respect for the individual. Do any "Western Democracies" (presumably espousing or reflecting "Western Values" govern by simple majority rule? Do they not all have guarantees forminority rights in some form or other? Whatever the imperfections exist in "Democracy," equating it to tyranny is ridiculous.
On Friday, 24 March 2023 at 18:04:43 UTC, HT wrote:discussing creativity. One of my heroes. He was very asthmatic and hated travelling, even to a radio studio.
The individual is a recent discovery. Respect for the individual is a Western value in name only. We have never learned how to deal with this phenomenon.
Henk
That's quite a profound observation, and very much in tune with Anthony Storr, the English psychiatrist, psychoanalyst, and author. I can't remember in which of his many books he talks about this. Fascinating man - I did a radio programme with him once
Nothing is perfect. A vote that counts (even only in aggregation) is respect for the individual.
Do they not all have guarantees for minority rights in some form or other? Whatever the imperfections exist in "Democracy," equating it to tyranny is ridiculous.
Owen Hartnett schrieb am Freitag, 24. M�rz 2023 um 19:42:25 UTC+1:
On 2023-03-24 13:52:59 +0000, Marc S said:> >> > One should maybe ask
oneself: Were it only the white men that did this> > stuff (slavery,
colonization etc)? Do islamic countries maybe have a> > responsibility
themselves for their backwardness; similar to how the> > Germans had a
responsibility themselves for the shoah, and not just> > Hitler and the
circumstances Germany was in after WW1?
"Guns, Germs and Steel" by Jared Diamond addresses these issues in a>
much more broader and deeper sense. It tries to answer the question>
posed by a New Guinean politician: "Why is it that you white people>
developed so much cargo and brought it to New Guinea, but we black>
people had little cargo of our own?">> -Owen
What do you mean in a much more broader and deeper sense... You never
talked to me about this in depth (New Guinea being sth different than
islamic countries btw), I also never wrote a book about the questions I
asked which you maybe could have read, but I could I think and I am
fairly certain, without even knowing Jared Diamond, that I could answer
it in a much more truthful sense. I am not saying that the book of
Diamond might not contain something truthful etc; but I am very certain
he would lack a lot of stuff needed for this endeavour (Marx, Freud,
Adorno etc).
In short however: It's "ideologies" that shape the consciousness of the different people (now New Guinea as an island is isolated, so this contributes to customs being stale, as there is not much different information being received etc), and this in the end explains why some
people didn't develop as much.
Islam as an ideology prevents individuals from progressing from a pyschological viewpoint, this hinders societies to progress. The
Taliban or the "Palestinians" basically represent a revolt against the
modern world (similar to the Nazis btw) which is too complex for them,
which they can't understand; they prefer tribal structures, an easy and simple life. It is like a child that refuses to grow up to face the
real world.
Islam is dfferent from Judaism and both is different from Christianity; ideologies are different and affect people differently.
Owen Hartnett schrieb am Freitag, 24. M�rz 2023 um 19:42:25 UTC+1:
On 2023-03-24 13:52:59 +0000, Marc S said:> >> > One should maybe ask
oneself: Were it only the white men that did this> > stuff (slavery,
colonization etc)? Do islamic countries maybe have a> > responsibility
themselves for their backwardness; similar to how the> > Germans had a
responsibility themselves for the shoah, and not just> > Hitler and the
circumstances Germany was in after WW1?
"Guns, Germs and Steel" by Jared Diamond addresses these issues in a>
much more broader and deeper sense. It tries to answer the question>
posed by a New Guinean politician: "Why is it that you white people>
developed so much cargo and brought it to New Guinea, but we black>
people had little cargo of our own?">> -Owen
What do you mean in a much more broader and deeper sense... You never
talked to me about this in depth (New Guinea being sth different than
islamic countries btw), I also never wrote a book about the questions I
asked which you maybe could have read, but I could I think and I am
fairly certain, without even knowing Jared Diamond, that I could answer
it in a much more truthful sense. I am not saying that the book of
Diamond might not contain something truthful etc; but I am very certain
he would lack a lot of stuff needed for this endeavour (Marx, Freud,
Adorno etc).
In short however: It's "ideologies" that shape the consciousness of the different people (now New Guinea as an island is isolated, so this contributes to customs being stale, as there is not much different information being received etc), and this in the end explains why some
people didn't develop as much.
On 2023-03-24 19:16:07 +0000, Marc S said:
Owen Hartnett schrieb am Freitag, 24. März 2023 um 19:42:25 UTC+1:
On 2023-03-24 13:52:59 +0000, Marc S said:> >> > One should maybe ask
oneself: Were it only the white men that did this> > stuff (slavery,
colonization etc)? Do islamic countries maybe have a> > responsibility
themselves for their backwardness; similar to how the> > Germans had a
responsibility themselves for the shoah, and not just> > Hitler and the >> circumstances Germany was in after WW1?
"Guns, Germs and Steel" by Jared Diamond addresses these issues in a>
much more broader and deeper sense. It tries to answer the question>
posed by a New Guinean politician: "Why is it that you white people>
developed so much cargo and brought it to New Guinea, but we black>
people had little cargo of our own?">> -Owen
What do you mean in a much more broader and deeper sense... You never talked to me about this in depth (New Guinea being sth different than islamic countries btw), I also never wrote a book about the questions I asked which you maybe could have read, but I could I think and I am
fairly certain, without even knowing Jared Diamond, that I could answer
it in a much more truthful sense. I am not saying that the book of
Diamond might not contain something truthful etc; but I am very certain
he would lack a lot of stuff needed for this endeavour (Marx, Freud, Adorno etc).
In short however: It's "ideologies" that shape the consciousness of the different people (now New Guinea as an island is isolated, so this contributes to customs being stale, as there is not much different information being received etc), and this in the end explains why some people didn't develop as much.Diamond goes back tens of thousands of years to figure out why western civilization ended up on top, and the rest of the world didn't. It
wasn't ideologies, it was the (I greatly simplify!) discovery of steel
which enabled the populations to develop tools to make producing
surplus food instead of relying on hunting gathering, (steel) and also
use steel to produce weapons (guns), and since people started living in cities, due to the abundance of food, also produced deadly illnesses
(germs) that helped conquerors easily subdue the native peoples.
-Owen
Owen Hartnett schrieb am Freitag, 24. März 2023 um 21:35:44 UTC+1:so this does not help us much in explaining things...
On 2023-03-24 19:16:07 +0000, Marc S said:
Owen Hartnett schrieb am Freitag, 24. März 2023 um 19:42:25 UTC+1:
On 2023-03-24 13:52:59 +0000, Marc S said:> >> > One should maybe ask >> oneself: Were it only the white men that did this> > stuff (slavery,
colonization etc)? Do islamic countries maybe have a> > responsibility >> themselves for their backwardness; similar to how the> > Germans had a >> responsibility themselves for the shoah, and not just> > Hitler and the >> circumstances Germany was in after WW1?
"Guns, Germs and Steel" by Jared Diamond addresses these issues in a> >> much more broader and deeper sense. It tries to answer the question>
posed by a New Guinean politician: "Why is it that you white people>
developed so much cargo and brought it to New Guinea, but we black>
people had little cargo of our own?">> -Owen
What do you mean in a much more broader and deeper sense... You never talked to me about this in depth (New Guinea being sth different than islamic countries btw), I also never wrote a book about the questions I asked which you maybe could have read, but I could I think and I am fairly certain, without even knowing Jared Diamond, that I could answer it in a much more truthful sense. I am not saying that the book of Diamond might not contain something truthful etc; but I am very certain he would lack a lot of stuff needed for this endeavour (Marx, Freud, Adorno etc).
I certainly view this differently. You may believe the nonsense of Diamond; but let me show you where he is wrong and is pulling things out of his ass (lol at pulitzer prize)In short however: It's "ideologies" that shape the consciousness of the different people (now New Guinea as an island is isolated, so this contributes to customs being stale, as there is not much different information being received etc), and this in the end explains why some people didn't develop as much.Diamond goes back tens of thousands of years to figure out why western civilization ended up on top, and the rest of the world didn't. It
wasn't ideologies, it was the (I greatly simplify!) discovery of steel which enabled the populations to develop tools to make producing
surplus food instead of relying on hunting gathering, (steel) and also
use steel to produce weapons (guns), and since people started living in cities, due to the abundance of food, also produced deadly illnesses (germs) that helped conquerors easily subdue the native peoples.
The 1st problem that arises is that we can't adequately assess the living conditions of people that lived tens of thousands of years ago, lots of guesses you know, lots of pulling things out of ones ass (among other moments where he surely does it)...
2cnd problem is that the western civilization was not always on top; in fact the arab civilization was on top around the islamic golden age (so obviously the arabs have already caught up whatever advance Diamond imagined the western civilization had10000s of years ago etc; obviously also other civilizations were ahead of the western civilization. What about the Egyptians? etc.... or the Jews who also had very adanced civilization, while the Germans lived in mud huds, not the Romans though.)
-Owen
Owen Hartnett schrieb am Freitag, 24. M�rz 2023 um 21:35:44 UTC+1:
On 2023-03-24 19:16:07 +0000, Marc S said:I certainly view this differently. You may believe the nonsense of
Owen Hartnett schrieb am Freitag, 24. M�rz 2023 um 19:42:25 UTC+1:> >>Diamond goes back tens of thousands of years to figure out why western>
On 2023-03-24 13:52:59 +0000, Marc S said:> >> > One should maybe ask>
(slavery,> >> colonization etc)? Do islamic countries maybe have a> >oneself: Were it only the white men that did this> > stuff
responsibility> >> themselves for their backwardness; similar to how
not just> > Hitler and the> >> circumstances Germany was in after WW1?>Germans had a> >> responsibility themselves for the shoah, and
question>> >> posed by a New Guinean politician: "Why is it that you"Guns, Germs and Steel" by Jared Diamond addresses these issues in
much more broader and deeper sense. It tries to answer the
white people>> >> developed so much cargo and brought it to New Guinea,
but we black>> >> people had little cargo of our own?">> -Owen> >> >
What do you mean in a much more broader and deeper sense... You never>
talked to me about this in depth (New Guinea being sth differentthan> > islamic countries btw), I also never wrote a book about the
questions I> > asked which you maybe could have read, but I could I
think and I am> > fairly certain, without even knowing Jared Diamond,
that I could answer> > it in a much more truthful sense. I am not
saying that the book of> > Diamond might not contain something truthful
etc; but I am very certain> > he would lack a lot of stuff needed for
this endeavour (Marx, Freud,> > Adorno etc).> >> > In short however:
It's "ideologies" that shape the consciousness of the> > different
people (now New Guinea as an island is isolated, so this> > contributes
to customs being stale, as there is not much different> > information
being received etc), and this in the end explains why some> > people
didn't develop as much.
civilization ended up on top, and the rest of the world didn't. It>
wasn't ideologies, it was the (I greatly simplify!) discovery of steel>
which enabled the populations to develop tools to make producing>
surplus food instead of relying on hunting gathering, (steel) and also>
use steel to produce weapons (guns), and since people started living
cities, due to the abundance of food, also produced deadlyillnesses> (germs) that helped conquerors easily subdue the native
peoples.
Diamond; but let me show you where he is wrong and is pulling things
out of his ass (lol at pulitzer prize)
The 1st problem that arises is that we can't adequately assess the
living conditions of people that lived tens of thousands of years ago,
lots of guesses you know, lots of pulling things out of ones ass (among
other moments where he surely does it)... so this does not help us much
in explaining things...
2cnd problem is that the western civilization was not always on top; in
fact the arab civilization was on top around the islamic golden age (so obviously the arabs have already caught up whatever advance Diamond
imagined the western civilization had 10000s of years ago etc;
obviously also other civilizations were ahead of the western
civilization. What about the Egyptians? etc.... or the Jews who also
had very adanced civilization, while the Germans lived in mud huds, not
the Romans though.)
Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 24. M�rz 2023 um 22:13:37 UTC+1:
Owen Hartnett schrieb am Freitag, 24. M�rz 2023 um 21:35:44 UTC+1:> >
On 2023-03-24 19:16:07 +0000, Marc S said:> > > Owen Hartnett schrieb
am Freitag, 24. M�rz 2023 um 19:42:25 UTC+1:> > >> On 2023-03-24
13:52:59 +0000, Marc S said:> >> > One should maybe ask> > >> oneself:
Were it only the white men that did this> > stuff (slavery,> > >>
colonization etc)? Do islamic countries maybe have a> > responsibility>
had a> > >> responsibility themselves for the shoah, and not just> >themselves for their backwardness; similar to how the> > Germans
Hitler and the> > >> circumstances Germany was in after WW1?> > >>
"Guns, Germs and Steel" by Jared Diamond addresses these issues in a>>
question>> > >> posed by a New Guinean politician: "Why is it that youmuch more broader and deeper sense. It tries to answer the
white people>> > >> developed so much cargo and brought it to New
Guinea, but we black>> > >> people had little cargo of our own?">>
-Owen> > >> > > What do you mean in a much more broader and deeper
sense... You never> > > talked to me about this in depth (New Guinea
being sth different than> > > islamic countries btw), I also never
wrote a book about the questions I> > > asked which you maybe could
have read, but I could I think and I am> > > fairly certain, without
even knowing Jared Diamond, that I could answer> > > it in a much more
truthful sense. I am not saying that the book of> > > Diamond might not
contain something truthful etc; but I am very certain> > > he would
lack a lot of stuff needed for this endeavour (Marx, Freud,> > > Adorno
etc).> > >> > > In short however: It's "ideologies" that shape the
consciousness of the> > > different people (now New Guinea as an island
is isolated, so this> > > contributes to customs being stale, as there
is not much different> > > information being received etc), and this in
the end explains why some> > > people didn't develop as much.> >
Diamond goes back tens of thousands of years to figure out why western>
civilization ended up on top, and the rest of the world didn't. It> >wasn't ideologies, it was the (I greatly simplify!) discovery of steel>
which enabled the populations to develop tools to make producing> >surplus food instead of relying on hunting gathering, (steel) and also>
use steel to produce weapons (guns), and since people started livingillnesses> > (germs) that helped conquerors easily subdue the native
cities, due to the abundance of food, also produced deadly
peoples.
I certainly view this differently. You may believe the nonsense of
Diamond; but let me show you where he is wrong and is pulling things
out of his ass (lol at pulitzer prize)>> The 1st problem that arises is
that we can't adequately assess the living conditions of people that
lived tens of thousands of years ago, lots of guesses you know, lots of
pulling things out of ones ass (among other moments where he surely
does it)... so this does not help us much in explaining things...>>
2cnd problem is that the western civilization was not always on top; in
fact the arab civilization was on top around the islamic golden age (so
obviously the arabs have already caught up whatever advance Diamond
imagined the western civilization had 10000s of years ago etc;
obviously also other civilizations were ahead of the western
civilization. What about the Egyptians? etc.... or the Jews who also
had very adanced civilization, while the Germans lived in mud huds, not
the Romans though.)>> >> >> > -Owen
In the end you see... Owen... you must think more "critically"... and
not just take everything Mr Diamond or whoever tells you for granted. I
think what I am saying is very reasonable, and it shows very clearly
how Diamond is wrong in his assumptions and how it is nonsensical to
talk about things 100000 years ago, since other socieites already
caught up.
The real advance came through the industrial revolution, capitalism, enlightenment, science, human rights around 17th-18th century.
Op donderdag 23 maart 2023 om 08:11:44 UTC+1 schreef Dan Koren:
https://youtu.be/zrhhEJlw-e4
All resident and visiting philosophers, thinkers,
pundits, spectators, tinkerers, kibbitzers, are
kindly invited to comment. I will stay out of
the fray.
TIACIS is an Australian libertarian think-tank. It's a "classical libertarian" organization, according to Wiki. We may expect a typical Anglo-Saxon (colonialist, imperialist) view of the world.
Henk
Cemetaries in Australian goldmining towns are full of
gravestones of people with Welsh or Cornish names.
of the world as well. I did notice that by the mid 1930s there were more and more brown faces in the photographs of the management of those East India companies that formed the frontispieces of those Gedenkboeken, not long before the Japanese arrived ...CIS is an Australian libertarian think-tank. It's a "classical libertarian" organization, according to Wiki. We may expect a typical Anglo-Saxon (colonialist, imperialist) view of the world.
But Henk, we Anglo-Saxons are platdutsch speakers, just like you! And I have fond memories of cataloguing platdeutsh books with names like "Onze Indie" or Gedenkboek van de Deli Maatschappij, from the days when you had a colonialist, imperialist view
Besides, a whole lot of people who did very well out of the Anglo-Saxon Empire were Celts. The Bengal jute industry was managed from Dundee. Cemetaries in Australian goldmining towns are full of gravestones of people with Welsh or Cornish names.
of the world as well. I did notice that by the mid 1930s there were more and more brown faces in the photographs of the management of those East India companies that formed the frontispieces of those Gedenkboeken, not long before the Japanese arrived ...CIS is an Australian libertarian think-tank. It's a "classical libertarian" organization, according to Wiki. We may expect a typical Anglo-Saxon (colonialist, imperialist) view of the world.
But Henk, we Anglo-Saxons are platdutsch speakers, just like you! And I have fond memories of cataloguing platdeutsh books with names like "Onze Indie" or Gedenkboek van de Deli Maatschappij, from the days when you had a colonialist, imperialist view
Indeed. The Netherlands had colonies. And we would have liked to be an Empire. The English were ahead of us - and all the other candidates. Moreover, they had a philosophical tradition that provided a perfect ideological basis.
Besides, a whole lot of people who did very well out of the Anglo-Saxon Empire were Celts. The Bengal jute industry was managed from Dundee. Cemetaries in Australian goldmining towns are full of gravestones of people with Welsh or Cornish names.
Your definition of Anglo-Saxon is remarkably narrow. Mine is perhaps too broad: Anglo-Saxon is someone who lives in a country with English as its main language - even if he is originally of Cuban origin.
Henk
On Saturday, March 25, 2023 at 1:09:35 PM UTC-7, Andrew Clarke wrote:
Cemetaries in Australian goldmining towns are full of
gravestones of people with Welsh or Cornish names.
And what does this prove ?!?
dk
On 2023-03-24 21:13:34 +0000, Marc S said:
Owen Hartnett schrieb am Freitag, 24. März 2023 um 21:35:44 UTC+1:I don't see how even you with all your great knowledge can so easily
On 2023-03-24 19:16:07 +0000, Marc S said:I certainly view this differently. You may believe the nonsense of Diamond; but let me show you where he is wrong and is pulling things
Owen Hartnett schrieb am Freitag, 24. März 2023 um 19:42:25 UTC+1:> >> >>> On 2023-03-24 13:52:59 +0000, Marc S said:> >> > One should maybe ask> >>> >> oneself: Were it only the white men that did this> > stuffDiamond goes back tens of thousands of years to figure out why western> >> civilization ended up on top, and the rest of the world didn't. It>
(slavery,> >> colonization etc)? Do islamic countries maybe have a> > >>> responsibility> >> themselves for their backwardness; similar to how
question>> >> posed by a New Guinean politician: "Why is it that youGermans had a> >> responsibility themselves for the shoah, and >>> not just> > Hitler and the> >> circumstances Germany was in after WW1?> >>> >> "Guns, Germs and Steel" by Jared Diamond addresses these issues in >>> a>> >> much more broader and deeper sense. It tries to answer the
white people>> >> developed so much cargo and brought it to New Guinea, >>> but we black>> >> people had little cargo of our own?">> -Owen> >> >
What do you mean in a much more broader and deeper sense... You never> >>> > talked to me about this in depth (New Guinea being sth different
than> > islamic countries btw), I also never wrote a book about the
questions I> > asked which you maybe could have read, but I could I
think and I am> > fairly certain, without even knowing Jared Diamond, >>> that I could answer> > it in a much more truthful sense. I am not
saying that the book of> > Diamond might not contain something truthful >>> etc; but I am very certain> > he would lack a lot of stuff needed for >>> this endeavour (Marx, Freud,> > Adorno etc).> >> > In short however:
It's "ideologies" that shape the consciousness of the> > different
people (now New Guinea as an island is isolated, so this> > contributes >>> to customs being stale, as there is not much different> > information >>> being received etc), and this in the end explains why some> > people
didn't develop as much.
wasn't ideologies, it was the (I greatly simplify!) discovery of steel> >> which enabled the populations to develop tools to make producing>
surplus food instead of relying on hunting gathering, (steel) and also> >> use steel to produce weapons (guns), and since people started living
cities, due to the abundance of food, also produced deadlyillnesses> (germs) that helped conquerors easily subdue the native
peoples.
out of his ass (lol at pulitzer prize)
dimiss the scholarly work of Mr. Diamond, without even reading it.
The 1st problem that arises is that we can't adequately assess theWhat do you think archeaology is all about? We can determine which
living conditions of people that lived tens of thousands of years ago, lots of guesses you know, lots of pulling things out of ones ass (among other moments where he surely does it)... so this does not help us much
in explaining things...
peoples were simply hunter gatherers, and which produced their food
through agriculture. We know which peoples were able to create steel
and guns and thus dominate other peoples which didn't or couldn't. We
know which people were able to live in cities, where agriculture had to
come from outside, cities where human contact was close and diseases rampant, thus granting herd immunity to their populace, and devastating
the peoples they roamed to conquer.
2cnd problem is that the western civilization was not always on top; in fact the arab civilization was on top around the islamic golden age (so obviously the arabs have already caught up whatever advance Diamond imagined the western civilization had 10000s of years ago etc;You're thinking too small. Too short periods of time.
obviously also other civilizations were ahead of the western
civilization. What about the Egyptians? etc.... or the Jews who also
had very adanced civilization, while the Germans lived in mud huds, not the Romans though.)
-Owen
On 2023-03-24 21:18:17 +0000, Marc S said:maybe ask> > >> oneself: Were it only the white men that did this> > stuff (slavery,> > >> colonization etc)? Do islamic countries maybe have a> > responsibility> > >> themselves for their backwardness; similar to how the> > Germans had a> > >>
Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 24. März 2023 um 22:13:37 UTC+1:
Owen Hartnett schrieb am Freitag, 24. März 2023 um 21:35:44 UTC+1:> > On 2023-03-24 19:16:07 +0000, Marc S said:> > > Owen Hartnett schrieb am Freitag, 24. März 2023 um 19:42:25 UTC+1:> > >> On 2023-03-24 13:52:59 +0000, Marc S said:> >> > One should
I certainly view this differently. You may believe the nonsense of Diamond; but let me show you where he is wrong and is pulling things out of his ass (lol at pulitzer prize)>> The 1st problem that arises is that we can't adequately assess the livingconditions of people that lived tens of thousands of years ago, lots of guesses you know, lots of pulling things out of ones ass (among other moments where he surely does it)... so this does not help us much in explaining things...>> 2cnd problem is that
In the end you see... Owen... you must think more "critically"... and not just take everything Mr Diamond or whoever tells you for granted. I think what I am saying is very reasonable, and it shows very clearly how Diamond is wrong in his assumptionsand how it is nonsensical to talk about things 100000 years ago, since other socieites already caught up.
I must admit I probably haven't conveyed Diamond's research as well as he does in his book. I recommend you read him, not me.
The real advance came through the industrial revolution, capitalism, enlightenment, science, human rights around 17th-18th century.
And all of the above came about because of guns, germs, and steel. Think bigger.
-Owen
On 2023-03-24 21:18:17 +0000, Marc S said:maybe ask> > >> oneself: Were it only the white men that did this> > stuff (slavery,> > >> colonization etc)? Do islamic countries maybe have a> > responsibility> > >> themselves for their backwardness; similar to how the> > Germans had a> > >>
Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 24. März 2023 um 22:13:37 UTC+1:
Owen Hartnett schrieb am Freitag, 24. März 2023 um 21:35:44 UTC+1:> > On 2023-03-24 19:16:07 +0000, Marc S said:> > > Owen Hartnett schrieb am Freitag, 24. März 2023 um 19:42:25 UTC+1:> > >> On 2023-03-24 13:52:59 +0000, Marc S said:> >> > One should
I certainly view this differently. You may believe the nonsense of Diamond; but let me show you where he is wrong and is pulling things out of his ass (lol at pulitzer prize)>> The 1st problem that arises is that we can't adequately assess the livingconditions of people that lived tens of thousands of years ago, lots of guesses you know, lots of pulling things out of ones ass (among other moments where he surely does it)... so this does not help us much in explaining things...>> 2cnd problem is that
In the end you see... Owen... you must think more "critically"... and not just take everything Mr Diamond or whoever tells you for granted. I think what I am saying is very reasonable, and it shows very clearly how Diamond is wrong in his assumptionsand how it is nonsensical to talk about things 100000 years ago, since other socieites already caught up.
I must admit I probably haven't conveyed Diamond's research as well as he does in his book. I recommend you read him, not me.
The real advance came through the industrial revolution, capitalism, enlightenment, science, human rights around 17th-18th century.
And all of the above came about because of guns, germs, and steel. Think bigger.
-Owen
On 2023-03-24 21:18:17 +0000, Marc S said:maybe ask> > >> oneself: Were it only the white men that did this> > stuff (slavery,> > >> colonization etc)? Do islamic countries maybe have a> > responsibility> > >> themselves for their backwardness; similar to how the> > Germans had a> > >>
Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 24. März 2023 um 22:13:37 UTC+1:
Owen Hartnett schrieb am Freitag, 24. März 2023 um 21:35:44 UTC+1:> > On 2023-03-24 19:16:07 +0000, Marc S said:> > > Owen Hartnett schrieb am Freitag, 24. März 2023 um 19:42:25 UTC+1:> > >> On 2023-03-24 13:52:59 +0000, Marc S said:> >> > One should
I certainly view this differently. You may believe the nonsense of Diamond; but let me show you where he is wrong and is pulling things out of his ass (lol at pulitzer prize)>> The 1st problem that arises is that we can't adequately assess the livingconditions of people that lived tens of thousands of years ago, lots of guesses you know, lots of pulling things out of ones ass (among other moments where he surely does it)... so this does not help us much in explaining things...>> 2cnd problem is that
In the end you see... Owen... you must think more "critically"... and not just take everything Mr Diamond or whoever tells you for granted. I think what I am saying is very reasonable, and it shows very clearly how Diamond is wrong in his assumptionsand how it is nonsensical to talk about things 100000 years ago, since other socieites already caught up.
I must admit I probably haven't conveyed Diamond's research as well as he does in his book. I recommend you read him, not me.
The real advance came through the industrial revolution, capitalism, enlightenment, science, human rights around 17th-18th century.
And all of the above came about because of guns, germs, and steel. Think bigger.
-Owen
On 2023-03-24 21:18:17 +0000, Marc S said:maybe ask> > >> oneself: Were it only the white men that did this> > stuff (slavery,> > >> colonization etc)? Do islamic countries maybe have a> > responsibility> > >> themselves for their backwardness; similar to how the> > Germans had a> > >>
Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 24. März 2023 um 22:13:37 UTC+1:
Owen Hartnett schrieb am Freitag, 24. März 2023 um 21:35:44 UTC+1:> > On 2023-03-24 19:16:07 +0000, Marc S said:> > > Owen Hartnett schrieb am Freitag, 24. März 2023 um 19:42:25 UTC+1:> > >> On 2023-03-24 13:52:59 +0000, Marc S said:> >> > One should
I certainly view this differently. You may believe the nonsense of Diamond; but let me show you where he is wrong and is pulling things out of his ass (lol at pulitzer prize)>> The 1st problem that arises is that we can't adequately assess the livingconditions of people that lived tens of thousands of years ago, lots of guesses you know, lots of pulling things out of ones ass (among other moments where he surely does it)... so this does not help us much in explaining things...>> 2cnd problem is that
In the end you see... Owen... you must think more "critically"... and not just take everything Mr Diamond or whoever tells you for granted. I think what I am saying is very reasonable, and it shows very clearly how Diamond is wrong in his assumptionsand how it is nonsensical to talk about things 100000 years ago, since other socieites already caught up.
I must admit I probably haven't conveyed Diamond's research as well as he does in his book. I recommend you read him, not me.
The real advance came through the industrial revolution, capitalism, enlightenment, science, human rights around 17th-18th century.
And all of the above came about because of guns, germs, and steel. Think bigger.
-Owen
Henk, please explain what you mean by a "typical Anglo-Saxon (colonialist, imperialist) view of the world, particularly as it relates to the CIS' ideology or even policy proscriptions as expressed on their web site.
The CIS is fully aware that it is embedded in the Asian sphere of
influence but wants to help promote an international order based
on liberal Western values. It is also fully aware that it cannot do this without the US and therefore welcomes its presence in the region.
Op zondag 26 maart 2023 om 03:43:18 UTC+2 schreef Frank Berger:identifying underlying current and future trends and issues; and introducing themes that will define and shape future policy. This includes contributions to debate and discussion on issues such as immigration and refugee policy and foreign aid. Our
Henk, please explain what you mean by a "typical Anglo-Saxon (colonialist, imperialist) view of the world, particularly as it relates to the CIS' ideology or even policy proscriptions as expressed on their web site.
"The purpose of our work is to help shape and influence a foreign policy that will promote the twin goals of a more secure Australia and an international order based on liberal values, rules of engagement and outcomes. CIS is taking the lead in
The CIS is fully aware that it is embedded in the Asian sphere of influence but wants to help promote an international order based on liberal Western values. It is also fully aware that it cannot do this without the US and therefore welcomes itspresence in the region.
If that isn't a typical Anglo-Saxon (pace Andrew) view of the world, I don't know what is.
Henk
On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 3:19:23 AM UTC-7, HT wrote:
The CIS is fully aware that it is embedded in the Asian sphere of influence but wants to help promote an international order based
on liberal Western values. It is also fully aware that it cannot do this without the US and therefore welcomes its presence in the region.
This isn't quite as simple as you present it. The root cause lies with
the fact that East Asia used to be in the British sphere of influence (except for the slice dominated by Japan) while th UK still had an
empire, then British influence evaporated as the UK lost its empire,
leaving Australia sitting directly atop the faultline. Sooner or later Australia will have to choose between China and the United States.
It is a hard choice, and it won't be nice.
dk
On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 3:19:23 AM UTC-7, HT wrote:
The CIS is fully aware that it is embedded in the Asian sphere of influence but wants to help promote an international order based
on liberal Western values. It is also fully aware that it cannot do this without the US and therefore welcomes its presence in the region.
This isn't quite as simple as you present it. The root cause lies with
the fact that East Asia used to be in the British sphere of influence (except for the slice dominated by Japan) while th UK still had an
empire, then British influence evaporated as the UK lost its empire,
leaving Australia sitting directly atop the faultline. Sooner or later Australia will have to choose between China and the United States.
It is a hard choice, and it won't be nice.
dk
On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 11:41:11 PM UTC+11, Dan Koren wrote:
On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 3:19:23 AM UTC-7, HT wrote:
The CIS is fully aware that it is embedded in the Asian sphere of influence but wants to help promote an international order based
on liberal Western values. It is also fully aware that it cannot do this without the US and therefore welcomes its presence in the region.
This isn't quite as simple as you present it. The root cause lies with
the fact that East Asia used to be in the British sphere of influence (except for the slice dominated by Japan) while th UK still had an
empire, then British influence evaporated as the UK lost its empire, leaving Australia sitting directly atop the faultline. Sooner or later Australia will have to choose between China and the United States.
It is a hard choice, and it won't be nice.
Australia made that choice in 1941 with the fall of Singapore.
We have been a major ally of the USA ever since. We had to endure an epidemic of student Maoism in the 1960s and 1970s by well-heeled undergraduates and some of their lecturers, but that's long gone,
especially since the horrors of the Great Leap Forward and the
Cultural Revolution became known.
On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 3:19:23 AM UTC-7, HT wrote:
The CIS is fully aware that it is embedded in the Asian sphere of influence but wants to help promote an international order based
on liberal Western values. It is also fully aware that it cannot do this without the US and therefore welcomes its presence in the region.
This isn't quite as simple as you present it. The root cause lies with
the fact that East Asia used to be in the British sphere of influence (except for the slice dominated by Japan) while th UK still had an
empire, then British influence evaporated as the UK lost its empire,
leaving Australia sitting directly atop the faultline. Sooner or later Australia will have to choose between China and the United States.
It is a hard choice, and it won't be nice.
dk
On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 2:34:14 PM UTC-7, Andrew Clarke wrote:
On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 11:41:11 PM UTC+11, Dan Koren wrote:
On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 3:19:23 AM UTC-7, HT wrote:
The CIS is fully aware that it is embedded in the Asian sphere of influence but wants to help promote an international order based
on liberal Western values. It is also fully aware that it cannot do this
without the US and therefore welcomes its presence in the region.
This isn't quite as simple as you present it. The root cause lies with the fact that East Asia used to be in the British sphere of influence (except for the slice dominated by Japan) while th UK still had an empire, then British influence evaporated as the UK lost its empire, leaving Australia sitting directly atop the faultline. Sooner or later Australia will have to choose between China and the United States.
It is a hard choice, and it won't be nice.
Australia made that choice in 1941 with the fall of Singapore.Sounds like Japan made the choice for you.
We have been a major ally of the USA ever since. We had to endure an epidemic of student Maoism in the 1960s and 1970s by well-heeled undergraduates and some of their lecturers, but that's long gone, especially since the horrors of the Great Leap Forward and the
Cultural Revolution became known.
And what prevents it from coming back?
On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 2:54:51 PM UTC-7, Dan Koren wrote:
On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 2:34:14 PM UTC-7, Andrew Clarke wrote:
On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 11:41:11 PM UTC+11, Dan Koren wrote:
On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 3:19:23 AM UTC-7, HT wrote:
The CIS is fully aware that it is embedded in the Asian sphere of influence but wants to help promote an international order based
on liberal Western values. It is also fully aware that it cannot do this
without the US and therefore welcomes its presence in the region.
This isn't quite as simple as you present it. The root cause lies with the fact that East Asia used to be in the British sphere of influence (except for the slice dominated by Japan) while th UK still had an empire, then British influence evaporated as the UK lost its empire, leaving Australia sitting directly atop the faultline. Sooner or later Australia will have to choose between China and the United States.
It is a hard choice, and it won't be nice.
Australia made that choice in 1941 with the fall of Singapore.Sounds like Japan made the choice for you.
We have been a major ally of the USA ever since. We had to endure an epidemic of student Maoism in the 1960s and 1970s by well-heeled undergraduates and some of their lecturers, but that's long gone, especially since the horrors of the Great Leap Forward and the
Cultural Revolution became known.
And what prevents it from coming back?See this:
https://www.amazon.com/You-Will-Be-Assimilated-Sino-form/dp/1642935409
dk
Owen Hartnett schrieb am Samstag, 25. M�rz 2023 um 19:03:12 UTC+1:
On 2023-03-24 21:13:34 +0000, Marc S said:>> > Owen Hartnett schrieb am
Freitag, 24. M�rz 2023 um 21:35:44 UTC+1:> >> On 2023-03-24 19:16:07
+0000, Marc S said:> >>> Owen Hartnett schrieb am Freitag, 24. M�rz
2023 um 19:42:25 UTC+1:> >>> >>> On 2023-03-24 13:52:59 +0000, Marc S
said:> >> > One should maybe ask>> >>> >> oneself: Were it only the
white men that did this> > stuff> >>> (slavery,> >> colonization etc)?
Do islamic countries maybe have a> >> >>> responsibility> >> themselves
for their backwardness; similar to how> >>> the> > Germans had a> >>
responsibility themselves for the shoah, and> >>> not just> > Hitler
and the> >> circumstances Germany was in after WW1?>> >>> >> "Guns,
Germs and Steel" by Jared Diamond addresses these issues in> >>> a>> >>
much more broader and deeper sense. It tries to answer the> >>>
question>> >> posed by a New Guinean politician: "Why is it that you>
Guinea,> >>> but we black>> >> people had little cargo of our own?">>white people>> >> developed so much cargo and brought it to New
-Owen> >> >> >>> What do you mean in a much more broader and deeper
sense... You never>> >>> > talked to me about this in depth (New Guinea
being sth different> >>> than> > islamic countries btw), I also never
wrote a book about the> >>> questions I> > asked which you maybe could
have read, but I could I> >>> think and I am> > fairly certain, without
even knowing Jared Diamond,> >>> that I could answer> > it in a much
more truthful sense. I am not> >>> saying that the book of> > Diamond
might not contain something truthful> >>> etc; but I am very certain> >
he would lack a lot of stuff needed for> >>> this endeavour (Marx,
Freud,> > Adorno etc).> >> > In short however:> >>> It's "ideologies"
that shape the consciousness of the> > different> >>> people (now New
Guinea as an island is isolated, so this> > contributes> >>> to customs
being stale, as there is not much different> > information> >>> being
received etc), and this in the end explains why some> > people> >>>
didn't develop as much.> >> Diamond goes back tens of thousands of
years to figure out why western>> >> civilization ended up on top, and
the rest of the world didn't. It>> >> wasn't ideologies, it was the (I
greatly simplify!) discovery of steel>> >> which enabled the
populations to develop tools to make producing>> >> surplus food
instead of relying on hunting gathering, (steel) and also>> >> use
steel to produce weapons (guns), and since people started living> >>
cities, due to the abundance of food, also produced deadly> >>illnesses> (germs) that helped conquerors easily subdue the native> >>
peoples.> > I certainly view this differently. You may believe the
nonsense of> > Diamond; but let me show you where he is wrong and is
pulling things> > out of his ass (lol at pulitzer prize)
I don't see how even you with all your great knowledge can so easily>
dimiss the scholarly work of Mr. Diamond, without even reading it.
I already explained how. It seems, you don't understand my arguments
and are unable to think critically.
Mr. Diamond might indeed "know" more than I do, but he seems to
"understand" very little.
Ever talked to an islamic scholar? He likely knows more about islam
than you do, but he does not understand it... Maybe Owen, if you only
read the Quran and the Sunnah you would convert to islam.
Ever read "scholarly" works on the efficacy of wearing masks against covid?Ever read "scholarly" works on the efficacy of lockdowns and
schools closures against covid?
...well it seems reality proved all these "scholars" wrong, as Sweden
has shown without any doubt that they did better than most other
countries that implentend draconian measures against covid.
Ever read "scholarly" works on the efficacy on giving puberty-blockers
and hormones to children and adults who falsely considers themselves to
be born int he wrong body and are urged to "transition"? "Scholars"
telling us that women can be men and men can be women... "scholars"...
Did you know that the guy - Ant�nio Egas Moniz - who invented the
Lobotomy received a nobel prize for his "scholarly" work that fucked up Rosemary Kennedy forever?
Now, learn to think critically about the "scholarly" works...
Do you know how many Pulitzer-Prizes were given to works that actually sucked?...
What do you think archeaology is all about? We can determine which>
The 1st problem that arises is that we can't adequately assess the> >
living conditions of people that lived tens of thousands of years ago,>
lots of guesses you know, lots of pulling things out of ones ass(among> > other moments where he surely does it)... so this does not
help us much> > in explaining things...
peoples were simply hunter gatherers, and which produced their food>
through agriculture. We know which peoples were able to create steel>
and guns and thus dominate other peoples which didn't or couldn't. We>
know which people were able to live in cities, where agriculture had
come from outside, cities where human contact was close anddiseases> rampant, thus granting herd immunity to their populace, and
devastating> the peoples they roamed to conquer.
Look, I am sure Diamond put a lot of thought into it, but it seems you
can't think critically. I am also aware what archaeology is about, just
as I am aware about that archaeology does not give us all the answers
needed to assess a society of 10000years ago... that's just the
reality; sth you don't seem to have any awareness about btw.
Think about where your godly figure Diamond might have erred, or do you believe that his work is 100% right in answering all the questions
raised rather than just giving theories of which some may be more
truthful than others.
There were no guns 10000 years ago...
No, Owen... you misunderstand the argument, and your way of thinking is utterly reductionist.You're thinking too small. Too short periods of time.
2cnd problem is that the western civilization was not always on top;
age (so> > obviously the arabs have already caught up whatever advancefact the arab civilization was on top around the islamic golden
Diamond> > imagined the western civilization had 10000s of years ago
etc;> > obviously also other civilizations were ahead of the western> >
civilization. What about the Egyptians? etc.... or the Jews who also> >
had very adanced civilization, while the Germans lived in mud huds,
the Romans though.)
My argument is: Whatever advance Diamond imagined we had 10000years
ago, didn't matter anymore say in 12th century, because other people
simply had caught up by then... or were even more advanced than we were
- I have given examples. So the question is: why didn't these societies
- say the slamic society durign the islamic golden age - which were
more advanced than ours in mutliple ways (in math for example) failed
to keep their edge... simple answer: ideology prevented them from progressing. complex answer will be more detailed...
Funny how you just ignore all of this to make your point...
Learn to understand what I write, instead of trying to teach me bullshit.
You also seem to have no understanding of what ideologies are and how
they affected you yourself.
-Owen
Owen Hartnett schrieb am Samstag, 25. M�rz 2023 um 19:03:12 UTC+1:
I don't see how even you with all your great knowledge can so easily>
dimiss the scholarly work of Mr. Diamond, without even reading it.
I already explained how. It seems, you don't understand my arguments
and are unable to think critically.
Mr. Diamond might indeed "know" more than I do, but he seems to
"understand" very little.
Ever talked to an islamic scholar? He likely knows more about islam
than you do, but he does not understand it... Maybe Owen, if you only
read the Quran and the Sunnah you would convert to islam.
Ever read "scholarly" works on the efficacy of wearing masks against covid?Ever read "scholarly" works on the efficacy of lockdowns and
schools closures against covid?
...well it seems reality proved all these "scholars" wrong, as Sweden
has shown without any doubt that they did better than most other
countries that implentend draconian measures against covid.
Ever read "scholarly" works on the efficacy on giving puberty-blockers
and hormones to children and adults who falsely considers themselves to
be born int he wrong body and are urged to "transition"? "Scholars"
telling us that women can be men and men can be women... "scholars"...
Did you know that the guy - Ant�nio Egas Moniz - who invented the
Lobotomy received a nobel prize for his "scholarly" work that fucked up Rosemary Kennedy forever?
Now, learn to think critically about the "scholarly" works...
Do you know how many Pulitzer-Prizes were given to works that actually sucked?...
What do you think archeaology is all about? We can determine which>
The 1st problem that arises is that we can't adequately assess the> >
living conditions of people that lived tens of thousands of years ago,>
lots of guesses you know, lots of pulling things out of ones ass(among> > other moments where he surely does it)... so this does not
help us much> > in explaining things...
peoples were simply hunter gatherers, and which produced their food>
through agriculture. We know which peoples were able to create steel>
and guns and thus dominate other peoples which didn't or couldn't. We>
know which people were able to live in cities, where agriculture had
come from outside, cities where human contact was close anddiseases> rampant, thus granting herd immunity to their populace, and
devastating> the peoples they roamed to conquer.
Look, I am sure Diamond put a lot of thought into it, but it seems you
can't think critically. I am also aware what archaeology is about, just
as I am aware about that archaeology does not give us all the answers
needed to assess a society of 10000years ago... that's just the
reality; sth you don't seem to have any awareness about btw.
Think about where your godly figure Diamond might have erred, or do you believe that his work is 100% right in answering all the questions
raised rather than just giving theories of which some may be more
truthful than others.
There were no guns 10000 years ago...
No, Owen... you misunderstand the argument, and your way of thinking is utterly reductionist.You're thinking too small. Too short periods of time.
2cnd problem is that the western civilization was not always on top;
age (so> > obviously the arabs have already caught up whatever advancefact the arab civilization was on top around the islamic golden
Diamond> > imagined the western civilization had 10000s of years ago
etc;> > obviously also other civilizations were ahead of the western> >
civilization. What about the Egyptians? etc.... or the Jews who also> >
had very adanced civilization, while the Germans lived in mud huds,
the Romans though.)
My argument is: Whatever advance Diamond imagined we had 10000years
ago, didn't matter anymore say in 12th century, because other people
simply had caught up by then... or were even more advanced than we were
- I have given examples. So the question is: why didn't these societies
- say the slamic society durign the islamic golden age - which were
more advanced than ours in mutliple ways (in math for example) failed
to keep their edge... simple answer: ideology prevented them from progressing. complex answer will be more detailed...
Funny how you just ignore all of this to make your point...
Learn to understand what I write, instead of trying to teach me bullshit.
You also seem to have no understanding of what ideologies are and how
they affected you yourself.
-Owen
On 2023-03-26 08:04:14 +0000, Marc S said:
Owen Hartnett schrieb am Samstag, 25. März 2023 um 19:03:12 UTC+1:
I don't see how even you with all your great knowledge can so easily>
dimiss the scholarly work of Mr. Diamond, without even reading it.
I already explained how. It seems, you don't understand my arguments
and are unable to think critically.
Mr. Diamond might indeed "know" more than I do, but he seems to "understand" very little.
Ever talked to an islamic scholar? He likely knows more about islam
than you do, but he does not understand it... Maybe Owen, if you only
read the Quran and the Sunnah you would convert to islam.
Ever read "scholarly" works on the efficacy of wearing masks against covid?Ever read "scholarly" works on the efficacy of lockdowns and
schools closures against covid?
...well it seems reality proved all these "scholars" wrong, as Sweden
has shown without any doubt that they did better than most other
countries that implentend draconian measures against covid.
Ever read "scholarly" works on the efficacy on giving puberty-blockers
and hormones to children and adults who falsely considers themselves to
be born int he wrong body and are urged to "transition"? "Scholars" telling us that women can be men and men can be women... "scholars"...
Did you know that the guy - António Egas Moniz - who invented the Lobotomy received a nobel prize for his "scholarly" work that fucked up Rosemary Kennedy forever?
Now, learn to think critically about the "scholarly" works...
Do you know how many Pulitzer-Prizes were given to works that actually sucked?...None of this is in anyway relevant to the discussion, which is why some societies advanced and dominated other societies, while others faltered
and became dominated or colonialized.
What do you think archeaology is all about? We can determine which>
The 1st problem that arises is that we can't adequately assess the> > >>> living conditions of people that lived tens of thousands of years ago,> >>> > lots of guesses you know, lots of pulling things out of ones ass
(among> > other moments where he surely does it)... so this does not
help us much> > in explaining things...
peoples were simply hunter gatherers, and which produced their food>
through agriculture. We know which peoples were able to create steel>
and guns and thus dominate other peoples which didn't or couldn't. We>
know which people were able to live in cities, where agriculture had
come from outside, cities where human contact was close anddiseases> rampant, thus granting herd immunity to their populace, and
devastating> the peoples they roamed to conquer.
Look, I am sure Diamond put a lot of thought into it, but it seems you can't think critically. I am also aware what archaeology is about, just
as I am aware about that archaeology does not give us all the answers needed to assess a society of 10000years ago... that's just the
reality; sth you don't seem to have any awareness about btw.
Think about where your godly figure Diamond might have erred, or do you believe that his work is 100% right in answering all the questions
raised rather than just giving theories of which some may be more
truthful than others.
There were no guns 10000 years ago...I haven't said his work is 100% right. You couldn't say that about any historian. That's like saying the absolute best composer is Mozart.
Why did Japan surrender in WWII? Some historians say fear of future
atomic bombing, some say they were going to surrender anyway, and no
bombs were needed, some say it was because Russia entered the war and invaded Manchuria, and the latest I've read insisted it was the carpet non-nuclear bombing of Japanese cities which ultimately turned the tide.
No, Owen... you misunderstand the argument, and your way of thinking is utterly reductionist.You're thinking too small. Too short periods of time.
2cnd problem is that the western civilization was not always on top;
etc;> > obviously also other civilizations were ahead of the western> > >>> civilization. What about the Egyptians? etc.... or the Jews who also> > >>> had very adanced civilization, while the Germans lived in mud huds,fact the arab civilization was on top around the islamic golden >>> age (so> > obviously the arabs have already caught up whatever advance >>> Diamond> > imagined the western civilization had 10000s of years ago
the Romans though.)
My argument is: Whatever advance Diamond imagined we had 10000years
ago, didn't matter anymore say in 12th century, because other people simply had caught up by then... or were even more advanced than we were
- I have given examples. So the question is: why didn't these societies
- say the slamic society durign the islamic golden age - which were
more advanced than ours in mutliple ways (in math for example) failed
to keep their edge... simple answer: ideology prevented them from progressing. complex answer will be more detailed...
Funny how you just ignore all of this to make your point...
Learn to understand what I write, instead of trying to teach me bullshit.
You also seem to have no understanding of what ideologies are and howYou seem to have an obsession with ideologies, and how you think they
they affected you yourself.
shaped the world.
How about the 16th century instead of the 12th? Look at how easily
Pizarro defeated the Peruvian natives in 1532, because they had steel
swords and horses instead of the clubs and sticks the natives had, and
had the training and experience of modern warfare.
-Owen
an aesthetic judgement like saying that Mozart is the best
composer (which he is), is something completely different
We were not the only region in the 16th century that
had steel, swords and horses... The arabs and steel,
swords and horses during the islamic golden age...
Dan Koren schrieb am Montag, 27. März 2023 um 11:54:06 UTC+2:Schoenberg violin concerto I think... and probably also Prokofiev 1 if i remember correctly; her Bach was very fast and very hmmm... maybe not my style in Bach)
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 12:19:14 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
an aesthetic judgement like saying that Mozart is the bestBach and Buxtehude are deeply upset. Wagner, Bruckner, and
composer (which he is), is something completely different
the Wagner Group are lining up to attack. And Tchaikovsky is
rewriting 1812 replacing the cannon part with nuclear tipped
Kinzhal missiles. If I were in your shoes I would abscond to
Mars immediately.
dkI'd like to say that I have to revise my rankings once again; I was wrong about Haydn and Schumann:
1) Mozart
2) Beethoven
3) Bach, Brahms, Haydn, Schubert, Schumann (not so sure how to rank them as of yet)
These are definitely my favourite composers.
Next in line would be Schoenberg and Berg; but you know... imo they just don't reach the heights of the people above. I mean, they can't anyway... the quality of their music is different, the idiom is different.
All the other composers I heard don't really make sense to me... british, american, french, other germans or austrians, polish, italian, czech, russian, spanish, mexican, danish, finnish or whatever...
Favourite composers wrt to 1), 2) and 3) as of yet:
Beecham, Karajan, Klemperer, Maag, Mengelberg
not so sure if I need them, but probably the best in the repertoire: Sawallisch in Schumann symphonies and Schubert 8.
Still undecided about Bach conductors... as of yet I have only been disappointed... and not so sure about the conductor of Haydn symphonies either; except for Scherchen in Symphony 45 (for the final movement)
Favourite pianists as of yet:
Argerich, Gelber, Gieseking, Gould, Horowitz, Richter, Rubinstein, Schnabel, Sofronitsky, Volodos (some things might still change)
Favourite violinists as of yet:
Kreisler, Szeryng and maybe Heifetz (I think his KV 364 is quite nice, better than all the others I heard) and Grumiaux... (I have heard quite a few, but I was never too impressed with most of them unfortunately. I mean Hahn is very good in the
Favourite cellists as of yet:
Only Fournier (I don't like the others I heard in Bach; have not listened to many cello concertos - I should definitely listen to Schumann's...)
Favourite quartets:
Undecided... need to listen more... I have not compared enough... generally I seem to like Juilliard
Thanks for listening folks
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 12:19:14 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
an aesthetic judgement like saying that Mozart is the bestBach and Buxtehude are deeply upset. Wagner, Bruckner, and
composer (which he is), is something completely different
the Wagner Group are lining up to attack. And Tchaikovsky is
rewriting 1812 replacing the cannon part with nuclear tipped
Kinzhal missiles. If I were in your shoes I would abscond to
Mars immediately.
dk
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 12:19:14 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
We were not the only region in the 16th century that
had steel, swords and horses... The arabs and steel,
swords and horses during the islamic golden age...
And a brief interruption to respectfully remind the
audience that gun powder was invented in China,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunpowder
and the first ironclad ships were built by Korea:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtle_ship
The printing press was first invented in China, and
the oldest extant printed book was printed in Korea:
https://www.britannica.com/technology/printing-press
The compass was first invented in China
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_compass
Paper money as we know it (aka banknotes) also
appeared first in China -- and noodles were also
invented there.
The pipe organ however was invented in Europe as
an instrument capable of producing large amounts
of hot air.
dk
PS. Why can Marc S only remember swords and horses?
May I respectfully suggest rinsing
your ears with bleach 3 times a day?
Take care.
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 10:48:40 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:Schoenberg violin concerto I think... and probably also Prokofiev 1 if i remember correctly; her Bach was very fast and very hmmm... maybe not my style in Bach)
Dan Koren schrieb am Montag, 27. März 2023 um 11:54:06 UTC+2:
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 12:19:14 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
an aesthetic judgement like saying that Mozart is the bestBach and Buxtehude are deeply upset. Wagner, Bruckner, and
composer (which he is), is something completely different
the Wagner Group are lining up to attack. And Tchaikovsky is
rewriting 1812 replacing the cannon part with nuclear tipped
Kinzhal missiles. If I were in your shoes I would abscond to
Mars immediately.
dkI'd like to say that I have to revise my rankings once again; I was wrong about Haydn and Schumann:
1) Mozart
2) Beethoven
3) Bach, Brahms, Haydn, Schubert, Schumann (not so sure how to rank them as of yet)
These are definitely my favourite composers.
Next in line would be Schoenberg and Berg; but you know... imo they just don't reach the heights of the people above. I mean, they can't anyway... the quality of their music is different, the idiom is different.
All the other composers I heard don't really make sense to me... british, american, french, other germans or austrians, polish, italian, czech, russian, spanish, mexican, danish, finnish or whatever...
Favourite composers wrt to 1), 2) and 3) as of yet:
Beecham, Karajan, Klemperer, Maag, Mengelberg
not so sure if I need them, but probably the best in the repertoire: Sawallisch in Schumann symphonies and Schubert 8.
Still undecided about Bach conductors... as of yet I have only been disappointed... and not so sure about the conductor of Haydn symphonies either; except for Scherchen in Symphony 45 (for the final movement)
Favourite pianists as of yet:
Argerich, Gelber, Gieseking, Gould, Horowitz, Richter, Rubinstein, Schnabel, Sofronitsky, Volodos (some things might still change)
Favourite violinists as of yet:
Kreisler, Szeryng and maybe Heifetz (I think his KV 364 is quite nice, better than all the others I heard) and Grumiaux... (I have heard quite a few, but I was never too impressed with most of them unfortunately. I mean Hahn is very good in the
Favourite cellists as of yet:
Only Fournier (I don't like the others I heard in Bach; have not listened to many cello concertos - I should definitely listen to Schumann's...)
Favourite quartets:
Undecided... need to listen more... I have not compared enough... generally I seem to like Juilliard
Thanks for listening folks
Dan Koren schrieb am Montag, 27. März 2023 um 12:07:09 UTC+2:
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 12:19:14 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
We were not the only region in the 16th century that
had steel, swords and horses... The arabs and steel,
swords and horses during the islamic golden age...
And a brief interruption to respectfully remind the
audience that gun powder was invented in China,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunpowder
Yes, I know.
and the first ironclad ships were built by Korea:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtle_shipSouth Korea was also for quite a while the largest
exporter of steel (until India took over, not sure of it's place now).
The printing press was first invented in China, and
the oldest extant printed book was printed in Korea:
https://www.britannica.com/technology/printing-press
The compass was first invented in China
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_compass
Paper money as we know it (aka banknotes) also
appeared first in China -- and noodles were also
invented there.
The pipe organ however was invented in Europe as
an instrument capable of producing large amounts
of hot air.
PS. Why can Marc S only remember swords and horses?
It is not that I only remember swords and horses, it is
that i was only referring to what Owen was saying, and
it seems that he only remembers swords and horses...
And I did not mention the chinese or the koreans simply
because I was giving other examples (arabs, mongols,
jews) to show Owen that he is wrong...
and that "the west" was not always the most advanced
civilization... seems you can't follow my thoughts either...
Judicial reform incoming!
Dan Koren schrieb am Montag, 27. März 2023 um 12:07:09 UTC+2:either...
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 12:19:14 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
We were not the only region in the 16th century that
had steel, swords and horses... The arabs and steel,
swords and horses during the islamic golden age...
And a brief interruption to respectfully remind the
audience that gun powder was invented in China,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunpowder
Yes, I know.
and the first ironclad ships were built by Korea:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtle_shipSouth Korea was also for quite a while the largest exporter of steel (until India took over, not sure of it's place now).
The printing press was first invented in China, and
the oldest extant printed book was printed in Korea:
https://www.britannica.com/technology/printing-press
The compass was first invented in China
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_compass
Paper money as we know it (aka banknotes) also
appeared first in China -- and noodles were also
invented there.
The pipe organ however was invented in Europe as
an instrument capable of producing large amounts
of hot air.
dk
PS. Why can Marc S only remember swords and horses?It is not that I only remember swords and horses, it is that i was only referring to what Owen was saying, and it seems that he only remembers swords and horses...
And I did not mention the chinese or the koreans simply because I was giving other examples (arabs, mongols, jews) to show Owen that he is wrong... and that "the west" was not always the most advanced civilization... seems you can't follow my thoughts
*wrt Mongols though I am not sure if
they were more advanced than the west.
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 11:00:44 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
Judicial reform incoming!
Far more likely Netanyahu's
political career will be over
sooner than anyone thinks.
dk
Dan Koren schrieb am Montag, 27. März 2023 um 12:07:09 UTC+2:
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 12:19:14 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
We were not the only region in the 16th century that
had steel, swords and horses... The arabs and steel,
swords and horses during the islamic golden age...
And a brief interruption to respectfully remind the
audience that gun powder was invented in China,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunpowder
Yes, I know.
and the first ironclad ships were built by Korea:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtle_shipSouth Korea was also for quite a while the largest exporter of steel (until India took over, not sure of it's place now).
either...The printing press was first invented in China, and
the oldest extant printed book was printed in Korea:
https://www.britannica.com/technology/printing-press
The compass was first invented in China
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_compass
Paper money as we know it (aka banknotes) also
appeared first in China -- and noodles were also
invented there.
The pipe organ however was invented in Europe as
an instrument capable of producing large amounts
of hot air.
dk
PS. Why can Marc S only remember swords and horses?It is not that I only remember swords and horses, it is that i was only referring to what Owen was saying, and it seems that he only remembers swords and horses...
And I did not mention the chinese or the koreans simply because I was giving other examples (arabs, mongols, jews) to show Owen that he is wrong... and that "the west" was not always the most advanced civilization... seems you can't follow my thoughts
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 10:57:26 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
Dan Koren schrieb am Montag, 27. März 2023 um 12:07:09 UTC+2:
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 12:19:14 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
We were not the only region in the 16th century that
had steel, swords and horses... The arabs and steel,
swords and horses during the islamic golden age...
And a brief interruption to respectfully remind the
audience that gun powder was invented in China,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunpowder
Yes, I know.
and the first ironclad ships were built by Korea:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtle_shipSouth Korea was also for quite a while the largest
exporter of steel (until India took over, not sure of it's place now).
The printing press was first invented in China, and
the oldest extant printed book was printed in Korea:
https://www.britannica.com/technology/printing-press
The compass was first invented in China
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_compass
Paper money as we know it (aka banknotes) also
appeared first in China -- and noodles were also
invented there.
The pipe organ however was invented in Europe as
an instrument capable of producing large amounts
of hot air.
PS. Why can Marc S only remember swords and horses?
It is not that I only remember swords and horses, it isPlease don't tell us you were trying to stay on topic.
that i was only referring to what Owen was saying, and
it seems that he only remembers swords and horses...
And I did not mention the chinese or the koreans simplyOwen knows he is wrong -- no need to remind hm.
because I was giving other examples (arabs, mongols,
jews) to show Owen that he is wrong...
and that "the west" was not always the most advancedThe "West" is not a civilization. It is only a collection of
civilization... seems you can't follow my thoughts either...
technologies. Such as bagpipes, tanks and guillotines.
Folks who think the "West" is a civilization ought to
visit Angkor Wat and Borobudur -- then check on
their calendars what was happening in the "West"
around the same times they were built.
dk
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 11:08:45 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
*wrt Mongols though I am not sure if
they were more advanced than the west.
They were in some ways -- militarily. The
Mongols were the first army to develop
composite bows with longer range than
wooden bows -- that were also shorter
and could be fired while riding. This is
what allowed them to conquer most
of the known world at the time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_bow
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_Empire
In similar vein, Israel was the first to
develop tank sights with automatic
movement compensation allowing
Israeli tanks to fire accurately while
moving. This is what saved the day
in 1973.
dk
Dan Koren schrieb am Montag, 27. März 2023 um 20:06:22 UTC+2:
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 11:00:44 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
Judicial reform incoming!
Far more likely Netanyahu's
political career will be over
sooner than anyone thinks.
If that's what you want to believe.
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 12:02:59 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
Dan Koren schrieb am Montag, 27. März 2023 um 20:06:22 UTC+2:
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 11:00:44 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
Judicial reform incoming!
Far more likely Netanyahu's
political career will be over
sooner than anyone thinks.
If that's what you want to believe.I don't "believe" anything, which
is why I used the word "likely".
If you knew anything about the
real Israeli political scene, as
opposed to the garbage you
cherry pick fromright wing
tabloids, you would realize
Bibi has passed the point of
no return by pissing off the
IAF. Most likely he will never
be able to form and/or hold
another cabinet. In Israel
most people understand
that what keeps the nation
alive and relatively safe is
the IAF -- not stuffed suit
politicians. It is a matter
of survival. Netanyahu
has done more harm to
the nation in a shorter
time than anyone could
have imagined. He will
have to go.
dk
Dan Koren schrieb am Montag, 27. März 2023 um 21:15:11 UTC+2:
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 12:02:59 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
Dan Koren schrieb am Montag, 27. März 2023 um 20:06:22 UTC+2:
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 11:00:44 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
Judicial reform incoming!
Far more likely Netanyahu's
political career will be over
sooner than anyone thinks.
If that's what you want to believe.I don't "believe" anything, which
is why I used the word "likely".
If you knew anything about the
real Israeli political scene, as
opposed to the garbage you
cherry pick fromright wing
tabloids, you would realize
Bibi has passed the point of
no return by pissing off the
IAF. Most likely he will never
be able to form and/or hold
another cabinet. In Israel
most people understand
that what keeps the nation
alive and relatively safe is
the IAF -- not stuffed suit
politicians. It is a matter
of survival. Netanyahu
has done more harm to
the nation in a shorter
time than anyone could
have imagined. He will
have to go.
Thanks for writing this out, I thought it was funny.
Judicial Reforms Incoming! Long Live Bibi!
Op zondag 26 maart 2023 om 03:43:18 UTC+2 schreef Frank Berger:identifying underlying current and future trends and issues; and introducing themes that will define and shape future policy. This includes contributions to debate and discussion on issues such as immigration and refugee policy and foreign aid. Our
Henk, please explain what you mean by a "typical Anglo-Saxon (colonialist, imperialist) view of the world, particularly as it relates to the CIS' ideology or even policy proscriptions as expressed on their web site.
"The purpose of our work is to help shape and influence a foreign policy that will promote the twin goals of a more secure Australia and an international order based on liberal values, rules of engagement and outcomes. CIS is taking the lead in
The CIS is fully aware that it is embedded in the Asian sphere of influence but wants to help promote an international order based on liberal Western values. It is also fully aware that it cannot do this without the US and therefore welcomes itspresence in the region.
If that isn't a typical Anglo-Saxon (pace Andrew) view of the world, I don't know what is.
Henk
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 12:21:08 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
Dan Koren schrieb am Montag, 27. März 2023 um 21:15:11 UTC+2:
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 12:02:59 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
Dan Koren schrieb am Montag, 27. März 2023 um 20:06:22 UTC+2:
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 11:00:44 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
Judicial reform incoming!
Far more likely Netanyahu's
political career will be over
sooner than anyone thinks.
If that's what you want to believe.I don't "believe" anything, which
is why I used the word "likely".
If you knew anything about the
real Israeli political scene, as
opposed to the garbage you
cherry pick fromright wing
tabloids, you would realize
Bibi has passed the point of
no return by pissing off the
IAF. Most likely he will never
be able to form and/or hold
another cabinet. In Israel
most people understand
that what keeps the nation
alive and relatively safe is
the IAF -- not stuffed suit
politicians. It is a matter
of survival. Netanyahu
has done more harm to
the nation in a shorter
time than anyone could
have imagined. He will
have to go.
Thanks for writing this out, I thought it was funny.
Judicial Reforms Incoming! Long Live Bibi!
Judicial "reforms" are NOT COMING !!!
At least not at a level that would give
Netanyahu a free pass and keep him
out of jail. Lock him up !!!
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 1:03:22 PM UTC-7, Dan Koren wrote:
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 12:21:08 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
Dan Koren schrieb am Montag, 27. März 2023 um 21:15:11 UTC+2:
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 12:02:59 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
Dan Koren schrieb am Montag, 27. März 2023 um 20:06:22 UTC+2:I don't "believe" anything, which
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 11:00:44 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
Judicial reform incoming!
Far more likely Netanyahu's
political career will be over
sooner than anyone thinks.
If that's what you want to believe.
is why I used the word "likely".
If you knew anything about the
real Israeli political scene, as
opposed to the garbage you
cherry pick fromright wing
tabloids, you would realize
Bibi has passed the point of
no return by pissing off the
IAF. Most likely he will never
be able to form and/or hold
another cabinet. In Israel
most people understand
that what keeps the nation
alive and relatively safe is
the IAF -- not stuffed suit
politicians. It is a matter
of survival. Netanyahu
has done more harm to
the nation in a shorter
time than anyone could
have imagined. He will
have to go.
Thanks for writing this out, I thought it was funny.
Judicial Reforms Incoming! Long Live Bibi!
Judicial "reforms" are NOT COMING !!!
At least not at a level that would give
Netanyahu a free pass and keep him
out of jail. Lock him up !!!
Can you read this?
https://www.axios.com/2023/03/27/netanyahu-israeli-judicial-overhaul-suspend-protests
The only reason I am posting this link is
for the entire group to see Netanyahu's
Likud party holds only 32 out of 120
parliament seats -- less than 27%.
You claimed repeatedly Netanyahu
"won" the last election with a clear
"majority". This is very obviously
not true, and you are obviously a
deranged delusional liar shilling
for his Fuehrer.
The main reason, if not the only
one, for the "judicial reform" is
that Netanyahu has been under
investigation for a lot of shady
business dealings, and wants
to change the legal system so
he cannot be held accountable.
It does not take any knowledge
of German philosophy to see
through this matter. It is grift
as ugly as grift can possibly
get.
dk
Assuming the airport is open, we're going to Israel on Sunday for a couple of weeks.
Maybe, just maybe, that's because liberal Western values are superior to
all others in enabling human flourishing including prosperity and
freedom. Have there been distortions? Of course--Original Sin is still around--but we recognize them as defects, not virtues.
Op maandag 27 maart 2023 om 23:15:20 UTC+2 schreef Bob Harper:
Maybe, just maybe, that's because liberal Western values are superior to
all others in enabling human flourishing including prosperity and
freedom. Have there been distortions? Of course--Original Sin is still
around--but we recognize them as defects, not virtues.
Bob, once we start believing that some values are superior to others, they become norms. Aesthetic and ethical values are not free floating, but are embedded in the way we live our lives.
I wonder whether prosperity and freedom are values. They are embedded in what?
Henk
I wonder whether prosperity and freedom
are values. They are embedded in what?
People keep throwing around the term
Western Values without saying what
they mean. I don't have much of a clue.
Assuming the airport is open, we're going
to Israel on Sunday for a couple of weeks.
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 3:30:38 PM UTC-7, Frank Berger wrote:
Assuming the airport is open, we're going
to Israel on Sunday for a couple of weeks.
Wishing you and your family a pleasant trip
and the happiest most enjoyable Passover.
If the airport is closed when you get there,
some airlines would land in Amman and
bus you over to Jerusalem or Tel-Aviv.
Are you flying El-Al?
dk
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 7:33:25 PM UTC-7, Frank Berger wrote:
Are you flying El-Al?
Turkish Air through Istanbul.
Excellent choice. I used to fly via Istanbul often when
using my United mileage. An R/T ticket to Tel-Aviv was
80k miles at the time, while only 60k miles were needed
to Istanbul. I would use mileage from SF to Istanbul, then
buy a cheap R/T from Istanbul to Tel-Aviv. That was before
United opened direct flights between SF and Tel-Aviv.
We've been to Israel around 18 times and have goneYou live on the East Coast and have more choices than I
most ways you can. Aeroflot, Lufthansa, Air Canada,
Iberia, Swiss Air, British, El Al.
have from SF. I tend to restrict myself to the Star Alliance
since my primary mileage stash is on United: Lufthansa,
Swiss, Air Canada and Turkish all fit the bill. I have also
flown El Al, British and KLM sometimes. I would never
fly Air France again, or Iberia, TAP, Alitalia or Aeroflot.
With Netanyahu withdrawing the reform proposalNetanyahu's political career is probably over, though
for now, maybe things will calm down a bit.
it may take some time for this to become obvious.
No Israeli PM can possibly take on the HIstadrut,
the IDF and the IAF all the same time. Lock him
up and throw the key into the Sea of Galilee.
dk
Are you flying El-Al?
Turkish Air through Istanbul.
We've been to Israel around 18 times and have gone
most ways you can. Aeroflot, Lufthansa, Air Canada,
Iberia, Swiss Air, British, El Al.
With Netanyahu withdrawing the reform proposal
for now, maybe things will calm down a bit.
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 1:03:22 PM UTC-7, Dan Koren wrote:
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 12:21:08 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
Dan Koren schrieb am Montag, 27. März 2023 um 21:15:11 UTC+2:
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 12:02:59 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
Dan Koren schrieb am Montag, 27. März 2023 um 20:06:22 UTC+2:
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 11:00:44 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
Judicial reform incoming!
Far more likely Netanyahu's
political career will be over
sooner than anyone thinks.
If that's what you want to believe.I don't "believe" anything, which
is why I used the word "likely".
If you knew anything about the
real Israeli political scene, as
opposed to the garbage you
cherry pick fromright wing
tabloids, you would realize
Bibi has passed the point of
no return by pissing off the
IAF. Most likely he will never
be able to form and/or hold
another cabinet. In Israel
most people understand
that what keeps the nation
alive and relatively safe is
the IAF -- not stuffed suit
politicians. It is a matter
of survival. Netanyahu
has done more harm to
the nation in a shorter
time than anyone could
have imagined. He will
have to go.
Thanks for writing this out, I thought it was funny.
Judicial Reforms Incoming! Long Live Bibi!
Judicial "reforms" are NOT COMING !!!Can you read this?
At least not at a level that would give
Netanyahu a free pass and keep him
out of jail. Lock him up !!!
https://www.axios.com/2023/03/27/netanyahu-israeli-judicial-overhaul-suspend-protests
The only reason I am posting this link is
for the entire group to see Netanyahu's
Likud party holds only 32 out of 120
parliament seats -- less than 27%.
You claimed repeatedly Netanyahu
"won" the last election with a clear
"majority". This is very obviously
not true, and you are obviously a
deranged delusional liar shilling
for his Fuehrer.
The main reason, if not the only
one, for the "judicial reform" is
that Netanyahu has been under
investigation for a lot of shady
business dealings, and wants
to change the legal system so
he cannot be held accountable.
It does not take any knowledge
of German philosophy to see
through this matter. It is grift
as ugly as grift can possibly
get.
dk
Dan Koren schrieb am Dienstag, 28. März 2023 um 09:19:25 UTC+2:
You live on the East Coast and have more choices than I
have from SF. I tend to restrict myself to the Star Alliance
since my primary mileage stash is on United: Lufthansa,
Swiss, Air Canada and Turkish all fit the bill. I have also
flown El Al, British and KLM sometimes. I would never
fly Air France again, or Iberia, TAP, Alitalia or Aeroflot.
I have one question: When was the last time you flew?
And when you did, did you put on your scuba mask against
covid?
On Tuesday, March 28, 2023 at 12:36:19 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
Dan Koren schrieb am Dienstag, 28. März 2023 um 09:19:25 UTC+2:
You live on the East Coast and have more choices than I
have from SF. I tend to restrict myself to the Star Alliance
since my primary mileage stash is on United: Lufthansa,
Swiss, Air Canada and Turkish all fit the bill. I have also
flown El Al, British and KLM sometimes. I would never
fly Air France again, or Iberia, TAP, Alitalia or Aeroflot.
I have one question: When was the last time you flew?To Israel? 2018 on United Airlines. More recently to other
places: London, Amsterdam, Barcelona, Munich, Istanbul,
Singapore, Shanghai, Hong Kong.
And when you did, did you put on your scuba mask againstI always wear a CBN grade mask when flying -- long before
covid?
COVID. If you wonder why, think about what happens when
a fire starts on board aircraft. I use this one:
https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Trudsafe-Respirator-Connectors-Tightness/dp/B07D9GJRFG/
I find it easier to put and take off than the 3M respirators.
It is also lighter, feels more comfortable on my face, and
can use standard 3M bayonet P100 filters, as well as RD40
CBN filters, both at the same time. I also carry a matching
PAPR pump in case things get really nasty, as well as an
oxygen concentrator -- all with medical prescriptions as
required by law and by the airlines I fly. I only fly a small
set of airlines selected based on their safety records and
on the traiining levels of their pilots: El Al, United, Qantas,
Air Canada, British, KLM, Lufthansa, Swiss, Singapore,
Turkish, ANA and JAL. I leave it as an exercise to the
reader to figure out what these have in common.
Cheers,
dk
Dan Koren schrieb am Dienstag, 28. März 2023 um 10:07:02 UTC+2:
On Tuesday, March 28, 2023 at 12:36:19 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
Dan Koren schrieb am Dienstag, 28. März 2023 um 09:19:25 UTC+2:
I have one question: When was the last time you flew?
To Israel? 2018 on United Airlines. More recently to other
places: London, Amsterdam, Barcelona, Munich, Istanbul,
Singapore, Shanghai, Hong Kong.
And when you did, did you put on your scuba mask against
covid?
I always wear a CBN grade mask when flying -- long before
COVID. If you wonder why, think about what happens when
a fire starts on board aircraft. I use this one:
https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Trudsafe-Respirator-Connectors-Tightness/dp/B07D9GJRFG/
Do you also have a parachute with you? I mean just in case.
Do you ever leave your home?
What do you wear when driving a car?
I mean you could get hit by another car -
statistically this probably occures more often than
fires on plane...
What happens if for whatever reason a fire starts
in your car and your belt-mechanism is jammed;
do you have a knife with you, to cut you loose?
On Tuesday, March 28, 2023 at 1:18:24 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
Dan Koren schrieb am Dienstag, 28. März 2023 um 10:07:02 UTC+2:
On Tuesday, March 28, 2023 at 12:36:19 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
Dan Koren schrieb am Dienstag, 28. März 2023 um 09:19:25 UTC+2:
I have one question: When was the last time you flew?
To Israel? 2018 on United Airlines. More recently to other
places: London, Amsterdam, Barcelona, Munich, Istanbul,
Singapore, Shanghai, Hong Kong.
And when you did, did you put on your scuba mask against
covid?
I always wear a CBN grade mask when flying -- long before
COVID. If you wonder why, think about what happens when
a fire starts on board aircraft. I use this one:
https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Trudsafe-Respirator-Connectors-Tightness/dp/B07D9GJRFG/
Do you also have a parachute with you? I mean just in case.No. It wouldn't be useful on a civilian airliner. No way
to get out of the aircraft in most relevant situations.
No ejection seats, and no pressurized space suits.
Do you ever leave your home?Every day.
What do you wear when driving a car?Jeans and a jacket. Sometimes driving gloves.
I mean you could get hit by another car -My strategy for avoiding accidents is the same as
the one used by the SR-71 Blackbird: fly higher and
faster than all surrounding vehicles.
statistically this probably occures more often thanIt does not matter to an individual how often or how
fires on plane...
seldom fires occur during flight -- the first one will
most likely kill one. Inverse inference is not a valid
statistical tool. The fact that some event only occurs
very infrequently does not matter it won't occur in
the next 3 seconds. How did you manage to pass
Statistics (10)1?
What happens if for whatever reason a fire startsI do of course carry the standard emergency kit.
in your car and your belt-mechanism is jammed;
do you have a knife with you, to cut you loose?
And car fires do not commonly start in the cabin.
They start in the engine compartment, or if a gas
tank is punctured. Either way there is usually time
to get out and run. It would be far more difficult
at FL 370.
Dan Koren schrieb am Dienstag, 28. März 2023 um 11:05:26 UTC+2:
On Tuesday, March 28, 2023 at 1:18:24 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
Dan Koren schrieb am Dienstag, 28. März 2023 um 10:07:02 UTC+2:
On Tuesday, March 28, 2023 at 12:36:19 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
Dan Koren schrieb am Dienstag, 28. März 2023 um 09:19:25 UTC+2:
I have one question: When was the last time you flew?
To Israel? 2018 on United Airlines. More recently to other
places: London, Amsterdam, Barcelona, Munich, Istanbul,
Singapore, Shanghai, Hong Kong.
And when you did, did you put on your scuba mask against
covid?
I always wear a CBN grade mask when flying -- long before
COVID. If you wonder why, think about what happens when
a fire starts on board aircraft. I use this one:
https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Trudsafe-Respirator-Connectors-Tightness/dp/B07D9GJRFG/
You see... you say it yourself... "in most relevant situations", but there might be situations where they come in handy.Do you also have a parachute with you? I mean just in case.No. It wouldn't be useful on a civilian airliner. No way
to get out of the aircraft in most relevant situations.
No ejection seats, and no pressurized space suits.
Without your scuba mask?Do you ever leave your home?Every day.
But this does not help you when you get hit by another car... also, what about your scuba mask?What do you wear when driving a car?Jeans and a jacket. Sometimes driving gloves.
Okay, but you must think about the cases where your strategy might not work out, you know...I mean you could get hit by another car -My strategy for avoiding accidents is the same as
the one used by the SR-71 Blackbird: fly higher and
faster than all surrounding vehicles.
Here a concrete example, so you don't have to think much which I know is something you ahve trouble with: "The Story of the SR-71 Blackbird that crashed while attempting to land at Kadena AB during extreme crosswinds caused by an oncoming typhoon"
https://theaviationgeekclub.com/the-story-of-the-sr-71-blackbird-that-crashed-while-attempting-to-land-at-kadena-ab-during-extreme-crosswinds-caused-by-an-oncoming-typhoon/
Same reasoning can be applied to traffic accidents you fool, which is why according to yoru reasoning you should be wearing a helmet and some armour and what not......statistically this probably occures more often thanIt does not matter to an individual how often or how
fires on plane...
seldom fires occur during flight -- the first one will
most likely kill one. Inverse inference is not a valid
statistical tool. The fact that some event only occurs
very infrequently does not matter it won't occur in
the next 3 seconds. How did you manage to pass
Statistics (10)1?
I doubt you have any idea about statistics... you are too stupid to understand math.
But is it in reach? Or do you have telepathic powers? Or is it just that you have a telepathetic mindset?What happens if for whatever reason a fire startsI do of course carry the standard emergency kit.
in your car and your belt-mechanism is jammed;
do you have a knife with you, to cut you loose?
And car fires do not commonly start in the cabin.There are many different scenarios in which a fire could start in the cabin (to quote Danstein: "Just because some event only occurs very infrequently does not [mean] it won't occure in the next 3 seconds")...
They start in the engine compartment, or if a gas
tank is punctured. Either way there is usually time
to get out and run. It would be far more difficult
at FL 370.
I won't overwhelm you by giving some concrete examples; I understand you are retarded.
How often does a fire start in the cabin in an airplane btw?
https://youtu.be/zrhhEJlw-e4
All resident and visiting philosophers, thinkers,
pundits, spectators, tinkerers, kibbitzers, are
kindly invited to comment. I will stay out of
the fray.
TIA
https://youtu.be/zrhhEJlw-e4
All resident and visiting philosophers, thinkers,
pundits, spectators, tinkerers, kibbitzers, are
kindly invited to comment. I will stay out of
the fray.
TIA
On 2023-03-26 08:04:14 +0000, Marc S said:
Owen Hartnett schrieb am Samstag, 25. März 2023 um 19:03:12 UTC+1:
I don't see how even you with all your great knowledge can so easily>
dimiss the scholarly work of Mr. Diamond, without even reading it.
I already explained how. It seems, you don't understand my arguments
and are unable to think critically.
Mr. Diamond might indeed "know" more than I do, but he seems to "understand" very little.
Ever talked to an islamic scholar? He likely knows more about islam
than you do, but he does not understand it... Maybe Owen, if you only
read the Quran and the Sunnah you would convert to islam.
Ever read "scholarly" works on the efficacy of wearing masks against covid?Ever read "scholarly" works on the efficacy of lockdowns and
schools closures against covid?
...well it seems reality proved all these "scholars" wrong, as Sweden
has shown without any doubt that they did better than most other
countries that implentend draconian measures against covid.
Ever read "scholarly" works on the efficacy on giving puberty-blockers
and hormones to children and adults who falsely considers themselves to
be born int he wrong body and are urged to "transition"? "Scholars" telling us that women can be men and men can be women... "scholars"...
Did you know that the guy - António Egas Moniz - who invented the Lobotomy received a nobel prize for his "scholarly" work that fucked up Rosemary Kennedy forever?
Now, learn to think critically about the "scholarly" works...
Do you know how many Pulitzer-Prizes were given to works that actually sucked?...None of this is in anyway relevant to the discussion, which is why some societies advanced and dominated other societies, while others faltered
and became dominated or colonialized.
What do you think archeaology is all about? We can determine which>
The 1st problem that arises is that we can't adequately assess the> > >>> living conditions of people that lived tens of thousands of years ago,> >>> > lots of guesses you know, lots of pulling things out of ones ass
(among> > other moments where he surely does it)... so this does not
help us much> > in explaining things...
peoples were simply hunter gatherers, and which produced their food>
through agriculture. We know which peoples were able to create steel>
and guns and thus dominate other peoples which didn't or couldn't. We>
know which people were able to live in cities, where agriculture had
come from outside, cities where human contact was close anddiseases> rampant, thus granting herd immunity to their populace, and
devastating> the peoples they roamed to conquer.
Look, I am sure Diamond put a lot of thought into it, but it seems you can't think critically. I am also aware what archaeology is about, just
as I am aware about that archaeology does not give us all the answers needed to assess a society of 10000years ago... that's just the
reality; sth you don't seem to have any awareness about btw.
Think about where your godly figure Diamond might have erred, or do you believe that his work is 100% right in answering all the questions
raised rather than just giving theories of which some may be more
truthful than others.
There were no guns 10000 years ago...I haven't said his work is 100% right. You couldn't say that about any historian. That's like saying the absolute best composer is Mozart.
Why did Japan surrender in WWII? Some historians say fear of future
atomic bombing, some say they were going to surrender anyway, and no
bombs were needed, some say it was because Russia entered the war and invaded Manchuria, and the latest I've read insisted it was the carpet non-nuclear bombing of Japanese cities which ultimately turned the tide.
No, Owen... you misunderstand the argument, and your way of thinking is utterly reductionist.You're thinking too small. Too short periods of time.
2cnd problem is that the western civilization was not always on top;
etc;> > obviously also other civilizations were ahead of the western> > >>> civilization. What about the Egyptians? etc.... or the Jews who also> > >>> had very adanced civilization, while the Germans lived in mud huds,fact the arab civilization was on top around the islamic golden >>> age (so> > obviously the arabs have already caught up whatever advance >>> Diamond> > imagined the western civilization had 10000s of years ago
the Romans though.)
My argument is: Whatever advance Diamond imagined we had 10000years
ago, didn't matter anymore say in 12th century, because other people simply had caught up by then... or were even more advanced than we were
- I have given examples. So the question is: why didn't these societies
- say the slamic society durign the islamic golden age - which were
more advanced than ours in mutliple ways (in math for example) failed
to keep their edge... simple answer: ideology prevented them from progressing. complex answer will be more detailed...
Funny how you just ignore all of this to make your point...
Learn to understand what I write, instead of trying to teach me bullshit.
You also seem to have no understanding of what ideologies are and howYou seem to have an obsession with ideologies, and how you think they
they affected you yourself.
shaped the world.
How about the 16th century instead of the 12th? Look at how easily
Pizarro defeated the Peruvian natives in 1532, because they had steel
swords and horses instead of the clubs and sticks the natives had, and
had the training and experience of modern warfare.
-Owen
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