Implicitly referring to the subject line
"An aligned altar is key to ascension",
on 13.05.2025 18:00, Piter De Vries wrote:

This statement is not strong enough and is sort of arbitrary.
Here's what it should say:

An altar is key to ascension.

(Mathematically, this is a weaker condition [than the one in
the subject], isn't it?)

I've got a game where I don't even have an altar and now I can see it.

What about the altar in the mine-town temple, what about the
altar in the Valley, or in Orcus' town?

But can you imagine ascending without an altar at all?

I recall my very early Nethack days when I ascended without
knowing about creating holy water on altars.

An artifact weapon (somewhat depending on the class played)
can be obtained occasionally by praying (for example) without
need of any altar.

Identification of BUC status is inherent of identifying with
scrolls or spells of identify.

What else do you specifically need from an altar?

It means I have to do everything I can to obtain one.

What do you mean here? (I don't think you can "obtain" an
altar outside Wizard/Debug-mode.)

Janis

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On 13.05.2025 20:10, Piter De Vries wrote:

Janis Papanagnou wrote:

Implicitly referring to the subject line
"An aligned altar is key to ascension",

[...]

I've got a game where I don't even have an altar and now I can see it.

What about the altar in the mine-town temple, what about the
altar in the Valley, or in Orcus' town?

]

Minetown showed up with a bones file with a hole in front of the temple
door. I ended up quitting the game because that's what the maxim says doesn't it?

I don't know of any such maxim. The only related statement like
that (that I know of) is: "A winner never quits. A quitter never
wins.", but while it is from the "false rumors" source it doesn't
mean that the opposite would be true; it's just irrelevant and
not helpful. - There's many ways to tackle difficult situations,
not necessarily simple or trivial solutions, though.

If the square before the entry to the temple has a hole then I'd
close the door and kick it down to pass diagonally. Or simply
dig through a wall, all done (of course) while no watch is in
line of sight; pick-axes are common in the mines. Or dig a hole
downwards on the the level above mine town and repeatedly jump
through that hole until you land where you desire. Or (with a
ring of teleport-control) teleport into the temple. Or wait for
a monster that does the digging; dwarfs with pick-axes/mattocks
or rock moles. Or polyself to do so. If you mind the mines watch
get a strong pet to kill them so that they can't mind any more
about your misbehaving to enter the temple. If your standard
pets are too weak go downwards to find a polymorph trap. And if
all fails there's a guaranteed wish at the Castle. - I end here
with these examples. There's many options, some depend on tools
and creatures you may need to acquire (or randomly find); yes,
it can get boring but there's plenty of choices that with help
of your creativity eventually you'll succeed.

[...]

I was doing what I could to gather rings in hopes of finding levitation,
but it was too hopeless and I'm doing better in the next game.

I understand your frustration; sometimes the RNG is stingy and all
that appears and occurs seems to be against you. On the other hand
Nethack allows so many creative moves that there's typically some
solution.

Janis

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On 14.05.2025 00:34, Piter De Vries wrote:

Janis Papanagnou wrote:

On 13.05.2025 20:10, Piter De Vries wrote:

Janis Papanagnou wrote:

Implicitly referring to the subject line
"An aligned altar is key to ascension",

[...]

I've got a game where I don't even have an altar and now I can see it. >>>>

What about the altar in the mine-town temple, what about the
altar in the Valley, or in Orcus' town?

]

Minetown showed up with a bones file with a hole in front of the temple
door. I ended up quitting the game because that's what the maxim says
doesn't it?

I don't know of any such maxim. The only related statement like
that (that I know of) is: "A winner never quits. A quitter never
wins.", but while it is from the "false rumors" source it doesn't
mean that the opposite would be true; it's just irrelevant and
not helpful. - There's many ways to tackle difficult situations,
not necessarily simple or trivial solutions, though.

If the square before the entry to the temple has a hole then I'd
close the door and kick it down to pass diagonally. Or simply
dig through a wall, all done (of course) while no watch is in
line of sight; pick-axes are common in the mines.

"while no watch is in line of sight"

Did you know sound travels around corners?

Have you tried it? - The pick-axe approach doesn't make any sound
if you're concerned about that. I'm positive it works.

The kicking, I seem to recall, also works if the watch doesn't see
you, despite the noise. - But newer versions may behave differently
and I also may be misremembering of course.

As said, there's many (more) options you have.

And if you say your character is otherwise prepared you may also
just kill the guards if they happen to dislike any chosen solution.

Janis

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On 14.05.2025 00:42, Piter De Vries wrote:

Janis Papanagnou wrote:

On 13.05.2025 20:10, Piter De Vries wrote:

Janis Papanagnou wrote:

Implicitly referring to the subject line
"An aligned altar is key to ascension",

[...]

I've got a game where I don't even have an altar and now I can see it. >>>>

What about the altar in the mine-town temple, what about the
altar in the Valley, or in Orcus' town?

]

Minetown showed up with a bones file with a hole in front of the temple
door. I ended up quitting the game because that's what the maxim says
doesn't it?

I don't know of any such maxim. The only related statement like
that (that I know of) is: "A winner never quits. A quitter never
wins.", but while it is from the "false rumors" source it doesn't
mean that the opposite would be true; it's just irrelevant and
not helpful. - There's many ways to tackle difficult situations,
not necessarily simple or trivial solutions, though.

[ snip various suggestions ]

[...]

I was doing what I could to gather rings in hopes of finding levitation, >>> but it was too hopeless and I'm doing better in the next game.

I understand your frustration; sometimes the RNG is stingy and all
that appears and occurs seems to be against you. On the other hand
Nethack allows so many creative moves that there's typically some
solution.

I can see you don't like the 'maxim' because it is vague and not
entirely tangible.

Huh? - I was just pointing to a possible source for that otherwise
unfounded "maxim". - Where did you get that in the first place?

I think it's just a good rule of thumb

...to give up and quit the game?

but you are
too right brain 'a solution exists' type of person to appreciate a
creative primary requirement.

Why this imputation? What is the goal of your post?

I'm not quite sure but since you obviously move towards a personal
post (as opposed to a solution based approach based on game facts)
I fear you don't like the idea of taking suggestions and hints to
applied and proven ways to solve issues in Nethack.

I may have misinterpreted your reply, but if I'm not mistaken then
feel free to continue whining and complaining and have a nice day.

Janis

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On 14.05.2025 05:43, Piter De Vries wrote:

Janis Papanagnou wrote:

[...]

Why this imputation? What is the goal of your post?

Because I think you are greatly simplifying the threat of a hole
directly in front of the temple.

Erm, no. I was just showing you a couple approaches to possibly handle
the situation you are in.

What is the priest to think when I kick the door in?

I don't think that he would mind you doing that.

I understand your reluctancy but trying it out (instead of quitting!)
gives you playing experience; either you succeed and have got another
tactics for similar situations (or you have to flee, or continue your [preferred?] choice of quitting the game).

Or dig into his temple?

I'm positive I did that in the past a couple of times without negative
effects WRT the priests, but (as said) I think the guards should not
see you doing that.

I am not prepared to take on even a guard at this point

Then I misinterpreted your post; given that you don't want to continue
the game because there's "no altar in the game", which would imply that
you have continued to [all] the guaranteed altars.

Now I understand that you were just in the early game stage.[*] And you
have problems handling that situation. - The general suggestion I can
give you for the general case is just to continue exploration and find
means that help you. - But here, in your current situation, there are
simple solutions (like digging, as suggested). But there's also other
options that I didn't mention because of the obvious digging solution,
like, e.g., to just step on the square with the hole; occasionally you
_evade_ the trap and can continue moving into the altar, and if you're
dragged down just come back and continue until you eventually succeed.

[*] And that what you said in your original post:
"I've got a game where I don't even have an altar"
was actually meant to say:
"I've _not yet_ found an [easily accessible] altar"

because my game has been choked with no way
to identify uncursed blessed and cursed except to take a leap of faith
and read some identify scrolls that are UNCURSED not BLESSED. The
overall restriction of my capabilities from a lack of altar is NOTABLE.

Sure. Finding an altar is a milestone.

Not prepared to take on a guard let alone a priest of the faith. If I
kill all the guards will my character permanently transgress from the alignment?

For an early game character that is indeed not advisable. In this case
(which wasn't clear from your previous posts) you should take another
approach (I gave you a few, this one too); polymorph your pet and let
your pet do the dirty work - this will not influence your alignment!

You are oversimplifying this problem and aside from the
bones there was nothing to add luster to this game.

No, I'm certainly not oversimplifying it. I was giving you a couple of suggestions to handle the situation you were facing, some are simple,
others need some more preparation. And since from your previous posts
I got a wrong impression about your standing, some suggestions don't
apply.

Janis

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On 14.05.2025 07:02, Piter de Vries wrote:

Janis Papanagnou wrote:

[...]

Here's what I should have done:

Dig a hole in the level above, gnomish mines, then drop through it until
I land in the temple. Or teleport scroll, etc.

Yes, these were amongst the options I provided to you; I had suggested
"Or dig a hole downwards on the the level above mine town and
repeatedly jump through that hole until you land where you desire."
and
"Or (with a ring of teleport-control) teleport into the temple."

All I needed was some amber/black information.

I don't understand that. There was actually plenty of information that
could have been useful to you. (And none "simplifying" your problem as
you imputed in your previous posts.)

Janis

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On 14.05.2025 07:05, Piter de Vries wrote:

I remember that game now. It was a barbarian who had all of his items
stolen by an invisible nymph. Was walking around with a scavenged
orcish short sword and shield maybe a couple other armor items. I think shortsword was getting on my nerves.

That is a bad situation; gear stolen by nymphs is already bad, and
an invisible nymph met early is really bad.

What I did in the past in such situations to lock myself in an area inaccessible to the nymph and let my pet kill her. That is boring
and needs some patience but it usually works. It's good to do that _immediately_ after the first encounter (and not let her repeatedly
steel all your equipment).

Another choice, depending on the situation, is to continue (after
the first contact; don't let her rob you naked if possible) the
game on another level and rebuild your gear and inventory. Doing
Sokoban, for example, provides you with rings and wands; a ring of
see invisible or an attack wand will help you handling the nymph
problem.

Janis

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On 14.05.2025 12:13, Janis Papanagnou wrote:

On 14.05.2025 05:43, Piter De Vries wrote:

[...]

Or dig into his temple?

I'm positive I did that in the past a couple of times without negative effects WRT the priests, but (as said) I think the guards should not
see you doing that.

I've just tried in an explore-mode game of Nethack 3.4.3 and it is
as I remembered; the priest doesn't mind digging into the temple,
and the guards also don't mind if they don't see you. But if one
guard is in line of sight he warns you to not do that. Only if you
do that digging attempt again (and you're observed) then all guards
gets upset.

BTW #1, if you upset the guards (in the case of that game with the
hole in front of the door) you don't necessarily have to kill the
guards; you could position yourself in a way that the guards will
step into the hole while approaching you, so that they disappear
from the level - you will meet them later on the level below,
though. This way you could do all you altar handling undisturbed
and you won't get the penalty for killing formerly peaceful humans.

BTW #2, also remember that a tamed war horse (or ponies and horses
grown up with experience, if no war horse is available) is able to
kill the watch [without penalty]. Only the watch captains might
remain a problem.

What I also did occasionally (while the watch is still peaceful)
was to direct them into a room and lock them away to be able to
act undisturbed and unobserved.

Janis

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On Tue, 13 May 2025 21:46:43 +0200, Janis Papanagnou wrote:

On 13.05.2025 20:10, Piter De Vries wrote:

{...]

Minetown showed up with a bones file with a hole in front of the temple
door.

[...]

If the square before the entry to the temple has a hole then I'd
close the door and kick it down to pass diagonally. Or simply
dig through a wall, all done (of course) while no watch is in
line of sight; pick-axes are common in the mines. Or dig a hole
downwards on the the level above mine town and repeatedly jump
through that hole until you land where you desire. Or (with a
ring of teleport-control) teleport into the temple. Or wait for
a monster that does the digging; dwarfs with pick-axes/mattocks
or rock moles. Or polyself to do so. If you mind the mines watch
get a strong pet to kill them so that they can't mind any more
about your misbehaving to enter the temple. If your standard
pets are too weak go downwards to find a polymorph trap. And if
all fails there's a guaranteed wish at the Castle. - I end here
with these examples. There's many options, some depend on tools
and creatures you may need to acquire (or randomly find); yes,
it can get boring but there's plenty of choices that with help
of your creativity eventually you'll succeed.

Jumping, boulder dash (with ?oEarth if necessary), levitation from
potion (if no =oLev is available), getting a monster to hit the
closed door with /oStriking (if oneself is too timid to try),...
Sooo many options to choose from. ;-)

BeAr
--
===========================================================================
= What do you mean with: "Perfection is always an illusion"? = ===============================================================--(Oops!)===

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