In my notnotdNethack game I've entered a level with Lamashtu.

The description in the Wiki[*] sounds extremely awful! It's
very strongly suggested to avoid meeting her. Albeit the Wiki
speaks of her being initially meditating it seems (from the
description) that she'll wake up when reaching line of sight.
Cowardly, I immediately left her level. Now pondering about
additional options (that are not mentioned in the Wiki); for
example; will a potion of paralysis work (being able to hit
her, and keep her long enough immobile), will a boulder fort
work (or can she pass it, or smash it with striking)? Will
she wake up from other monster interactions (something like
mind flayer ESP, battle noise, or some such)? There's also
an unreliable sounding manoeuvre with branch-ports mentioned
but (as far as I see) there's just two artifact items that
provide that property (Silver Key and the Eye), and I have
none of them. Any other additional suggestions are welcome,
as are personal game experiences with her.

This beast seems really scary! Especially her attack that
removes and translocates your armor; losing my Platinum
Dragon Scale Mail (fire, cold, shock, disintegration, sleep
resistance, free action, magic resistance, and reflection)
and Yellow Dragon Shield (acid and stoning resistance)
would most likely be fatal. And also all her other attacks.

Janis

[*] https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Lamashtu

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In the Wiki-Artifact list it's not mentioned (for notnotdNethack)
but sacrifices provided it: the Houchou. It's description (for
Slashem) is that it will insta-kill monsters (and is usable just
once). - Would the Houchou also inst-kill Lamashtu?
And I wonder what the odds are to miss (Lamashtu and generally).

Janis

On 19.08.2024 06:37, Janis Papanagnou wrote:

In my notnotdNethack game I've entered a level with Lamashtu.

The description in the Wiki[*] sounds extremely awful! It's
very strongly suggested to avoid meeting her. Albeit the Wiki
speaks of her being initially meditating it seems (from the
description) that she'll wake up when reaching line of sight.
Cowardly, I immediately left her level. Now pondering about
additional options (that are not mentioned in the Wiki); for
example; will a potion of paralysis work (being able to hit
her, and keep her long enough immobile), will a boulder fort
work (or can she pass it, or smash it with striking)? Will
she wake up from other monster interactions (something like
mind flayer ESP, battle noise, or some such)? There's also
an unreliable sounding manoeuvre with branch-ports mentioned
but (as far as I see) there's just two artifact items that
provide that property (Silver Key and the Eye), and I have
none of them. Any other additional suggestions are welcome,
as are personal game experiences with her.

This beast seems really scary! Especially her attack that
removes and translocates your armor; losing my Platinum
Dragon Scale Mail (fire, cold, shock, disintegration, sleep
resistance, free action, magic resistance, and reflection)
and Yellow Dragon Shield (acid and stoning resistance)
would most likely be fatal. And also all her other attacks.

Janis

[*] https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Lamashtu

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Janis Papanagnou <[email protected]> writes:

In the Wiki-Artifact list it's not mentioned (for notnotdNethack)
but sacrifices provided it: the Houchou. It's description (for
Slashem) is that it will insta-kill monsters (and is usable just
once). - Would the Houchou also inst-kill Lamashtu?

Yes.

And I wonder what the odds are to miss (Lamashtu and generally).

It always hits.

On 19.08.2024 06:37, Janis Papanagnou wrote:

In my notnotdNethack game I've entered a level with Lamashtu.

The description in the Wiki[*] sounds extremely awful! It's
very strongly suggested to avoid meeting her. Albeit the Wiki
speaks of her being initially meditating it seems (from the
description) that she'll wake up when reaching line of sight.

It is possible to get through her level without waking her. You can
either levelport down and use a cursed potion of gain level on the way
up (recommended, some of the other things on her level are quite nasty
too), or close the drawbridges with a wand of locking/spell of wizard
lock without entering her line of sight.

will a potion of paralysis work (being able to hit her, and keep her
long enough immobile),

It would work if it hits her, but it may not last for long enough and
you may not be able to hit her.

will a boulder fort work (or can she pass it, or smash it with
striking)?

She can walk on boulders like a giant, so no.

Will she wake up from other monster interactions (something like mind
flayer ESP, battle noise, or some such)?

She might, which is another reason why it's best to just skip that
level. Don't bring pets with mind blasts. She is meditating, same as
the Wizard of Yendor, who doesn't usually wake up early but certainly
can do.

There's also an unreliable sounding manoeuvre with branch-ports
mentioned but (as far as I see) there's just two artifact items that
provide that property (Silver Key and the Eye), and I have none of
them.

The Cage Key can be invoked for branchport too. It is found at the top
of the spire, in the inventory of the Lady of Pain.

Any other additional suggestions are welcome,
as are personal game experiences with her.

She is unfightable without a way of preventing her attacks. She has no-cooldown spellcasting (like all demon lords), and casts summon angel,
summon devil, summon alien, nightmare, filth, curse items, death touch,
and evil eye with equal probability. The most dangerous spells are
probably filth (which will make you vomit (causing paralysis), blind
you, and grease your hands (causing you to drop your weapon)), nightmare
(which will confuse you, stun you, and make you hallucinate), and summon
alien (which can summon extremely dangerous monsters such as uvuudaums).

The easiest way to kill her if you don't have Houchou is probably
timestop (via the Garnet Rod and/or wages of sloth): it's reliable
(gives a fixed duration that's shown in the statusline) and doesn't let
her get any attacks. You also need very high damage output and somewhat
high accuracy because she has 2568 HP, -26 AC, and 12 DR.

Misotheism (from a misotheistic pyramid - misotheistic fragments can technically be used but are death traps that will make her revive with
the fractured template) will block her clerical spellcasting, but not
her other attacks. Using a misotheistic pyramid/fragment outside of
Gehennom angers your god, and using a misotheistic pyramid will
temporarily give you darkvision like a drow (also preventing you from
seeing in light).

Since you have Houchou, just use that if you want to kill her. It's
unlikely you're going to encounter anything more dangerous (unless
Demogorgon gets summoned). Or just skip the level and save Houchou for
an emergency.

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On 14.09.2024 20:19, Ron Nazarov wrote:

Janis Papanagnou <[email protected]> writes:

On 19.08.2024 06:37, Janis Papanagnou wrote:

[...]

In my notnotdNethack game I've entered a level with Lamashtu.

The description in the Wiki[*] sounds extremely awful! [...]

It is possible to get through her level without waking her. You can
either levelport down and use a cursed potion of gain level on the way
up (recommended, some of the other things on her level are quite nasty
too),

On my second visit I had already cleared that level (but Lamashtu);
yes, it was very hard work I had to do before I left again. At the
moment only the inhabitants of Lamashtu's lair/"castle" are still
alive, nothing (but her) to worry about.

or close the drawbridges with a wand of locking/spell of wizard
lock without entering her line of sight.

Closing the drawbridge(s) with wizard lock from a diagonal position
(and leaving her alone) was indeed what I intended to do.

will a potion of paralysis work (being able to hit her, and keep her
long enough immobile),

It would work if it hits her, but it may not last for long enough and
you may not be able to hit her.

I am using an artifact ring that often makes hit monsters "sleep",
and the Wiki says that it's effectively a "paralyze" (not sleep).
So one thought was that if it works that reliable (as with other hit
monsters) it might be an option. - But in case the ring's property
would not work reliably, be ineffective for just one turn, this may
already be fatal. If, OTOH, the ring would work reliably it would
constantly "refresh" the paralyzation with every (every other) hit.

[...]

[ branch-ports ]

The Cage Key can be invoked for branchport too. It is found at the top
of the spire, in the inventory of the Lady of Pain.

I don't have that key, but think I've done the Spire. - Maybe I'll
revisit that level to see what's going on on that level; I don't
recall whether I had killed the Lady of Pain (or whether I maybe
left the level prematurely because of her or for other reasons).

Any other additional suggestions are welcome,
as are personal game experiences with her.

She is unfightable without a way of preventing her attacks. She has no-cooldown spellcasting (like all demon lords), and casts summon angel, summon devil, summon alien, nightmare, filth, curse items, death touch,
and evil eye with equal probability. The most dangerous spells are
probably filth (which will make you vomit (causing paralysis), blind
you, and grease your hands (causing you to drop your weapon)),

(...and would have to drop my sleep/paralize artifact ring as well,
I suppose.)

nightmare
(which will confuse you, stun you, and make you hallucinate), and summon alien (which can summon extremely dangerous monsters such as uvuudaums).

Okay, even only parts of that all is a clear directive to avoid her.

The easiest way to kill her if you don't have Houchou is probably
timestop (via the Garnet Rod and/or wages of sloth): it's reliable
(gives a fixed duration that's shown in the statusline) and doesn't let
her get any attacks. You also need very high damage output and somewhat
high accuracy because she has 2568 HP, -26 AC, and 12 DR.

The Rod was indeed also an option I considered.

I don't know whether my weapons (or which [artifact] weapon) would be
best for her. Her stats mean it has to be something very effective
that she's not immune to. - Currently I'm using some +10 fire/blood
artifact weapon, and I'm carrying the +7 Stormbringer as well. (And
of course I have tons of other artifact weapons in my stash where,
to be honest, I don't know whether they're even worth carrying.)

Misotheism (from a misotheistic pyramid - misotheistic fragments can technically be used but are death traps that will make her revive with
the fractured template) will block her clerical spellcasting, but not
her other attacks. Using a misotheistic pyramid/fragment outside of
Gehennom angers your god, and using a misotheistic pyramid will
temporarily give you darkvision like a drow (also preventing you from
seeing in light).

I don't know about that misotheism; I suppose I don't have it. I'm
not playing a spell-caster. But I have some magic glasses (or was it
another artifact with that property?) that lets me see in darkness.

Another thought was whether it would make sense to create darkness
(I think I have a darkness candle and maybe also a scroll or wand?)
so that she might not detect me too early and I could get the first
attack (e.g. to be able to reliably use the Houchou).

Since you have Houchou, just use that if you want to kill her.

Would the Houchou have to be wielded - do I need a trained skill? -
or can it be thrown (also from melee distance) to hit reliably?
(I typically seem to miss [in roguelikes] with untrained weapons or
unusual things used as weapons, especially against high AC foes.)

It's
unlikely you're going to encounter anything more dangerous (unless
Demogorgon gets summoned).

It's tempting to face Lamashtu in melee, given that (as you say)
Houchou will always hit with a guaranteed instant death attack.
One thing I fear is that she'll get a first attack bringing me in
a situation where I cannot perform my attack with the Houchou.

Or just skip the level and save Houchou for an emergency.

Well, I second that Lamashtu is clearly a sensible target to use
the Houchou against. I'd certainly feel more comfortable to know
she's gone.

Janis

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On 15.09.2024 15:12, Janis Papanagnou wrote:

On 14.09.2024 20:19, Ron Nazarov wrote:

The Cage Key can be invoked for branchport too. It is found at the top
of the spire, in the inventory of the Lady of Pain.

Is the "top of the spire" the level with a forest to the left and a
small maze to the right (with a stair leading to some endless spiral
maze and another stair continuing down to a level with a mirror maze)?
Probably not... (see below)

I don't have that key, but think I've done the Spire. - Maybe I'll
revisit that level to see what's going on on that level; I don't
recall whether I had killed the Lady of Pain (or whether I maybe
left the level prematurely because of her or for other reasons).

I returned to the level; no Lady, no key (quaffed object detection).

In ~/dat/spire.des I found the Lady defined at the top of sequence
of spiral mazes, in a "sigil" named maze.

Alas, how can I get there. All I could enter was the endless spiral
maze that I climbed maybe ten or more levels up without getting to
the "sigil" maze with the Lady.

So where is the entry to that "sigil" branch?

Janis

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On 15.09.2024 19:32, Janis Papanagnou wrote:

On 15.09.2024 15:12, Janis Papanagnou wrote:

On 14.09.2024 20:19, Ron Nazarov wrote:

The Cage Key can be invoked for branchport too. It is found at the top
of the spire, in the inventory of the Lady of Pain.

Is the "top of the spire" the level with a forest to the left and a
small maze to the right (with a stair leading to some endless spiral
maze and another stair continuing down to a level with a mirror maze)? Probably not... (see below)

I don't have that key, but think I've done the Spire. - Maybe I'll
revisit that level to see what's going on on that level; I don't
recall whether I had killed the Lady of Pain (or whether I maybe
left the level prematurely because of her or for other reasons).

I returned to the level; no Lady, no key (quaffed object detection).

In ~/dat/spire.des I found the Lady defined at the top of sequence
of spiral mazes, in a "sigil" named maze.

Alas, how can I get there. All I could enter was the endless spiral
maze that I climbed maybe ten or more levels up without getting to
the "sigil" maze with the Lady.

So where is the entry to that "sigil" branch?

Okay, I probably gave up too early...

LEVEL: "sigil" "none" @ (1, 0)
LEVEL: "stairs2" "none" @ (2, 0)
LEVEL: "stairs1" "none" @ (3, 0)
LEVEL: "stairs2" "none" @ (4, 0)
LEVEL: "stairs1" "none" @ (5, 0)
LEVEL: "stairs2" "none" @ (6, 0)
LEVEL: "stairs1" "none" @ (7, 0)
LEVEL: "stairs2" "none" @ (8, 0)
LEVEL: "stairs1" "none" @ (9, 0)
LEVEL: "stairs2" "none" @ (10, 0)
LEVEL: "stairs1" "none" @ (11, 0)
LEVEL: "stairs2" "none" @ (12, 0)
LEVEL: "stairs1" "none" @ (13, 0)
LEVEL: "stairs2" "none" @ (14, 0)
LEVEL: "stairs3" "none" @ (15, 0)

...retrying.

Janis

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Janis Papanagnou <[email protected]> writes:

On 15.09.2024 19:32, Janis Papanagnou wrote:

On 15.09.2024 15:12, Janis Papanagnou wrote:

On 14.09.2024 20:19, Ron Nazarov wrote:

The Cage Key can be invoked for branchport too. It is found at the top >>>> of the spire, in the inventory of the Lady of Pain.

Is the "top of the spire" the level with a forest to the left and a
small maze to the right (with a stair leading to some endless spiral
maze and another stair continuing down to a level with a mirror maze)?
Probably not... (see below)

I don't have that key, but think I've done the Spire. - Maybe I'll
revisit that level to see what's going on on that level; I don't
recall whether I had killed the Lady of Pain (or whether I maybe
left the level prematurely because of her or for other reasons).

I returned to the level; no Lady, no key (quaffed object detection).

In ~/dat/spire.des I found the Lady defined at the top of sequence
of spiral mazes, in a "sigil" named maze.

Alas, how can I get there. All I could enter was the endless spiral
maze that I climbed maybe ten or more levels up without getting to
the "sigil" maze with the Lady.

So where is the entry to that "sigil" branch?

Okay, I probably gave up too early...

LEVEL: "sigil" "none" @ (1, 0)
LEVEL: "stairs2" "none" @ (2, 0)
LEVEL: "stairs1" "none" @ (3, 0)
LEVEL: "stairs2" "none" @ (4, 0)
LEVEL: "stairs1" "none" @ (5, 0)
LEVEL: "stairs2" "none" @ (6, 0)
LEVEL: "stairs1" "none" @ (7, 0)
LEVEL: "stairs2" "none" @ (8, 0)
LEVEL: "stairs1" "none" @ (9, 0)
LEVEL: "stairs2" "none" @ (10, 0)
LEVEL: "stairs1" "none" @ (11, 0)
LEVEL: "stairs2" "none" @ (12, 0)
LEVEL: "stairs1" "none" @ (13, 0)
LEVEL: "stairs2" "none" @ (14, 0)
LEVEL: "stairs3" "none" @ (15, 0)

...retrying.

You could climb up all those levels, but a faster way is to read a
cursed scroll of teleportation on the first staircase level.
Levelporting on any of those staircase levels will always take you to
the sigil (which is the top of the spire and where the Lady of Pain is).

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Altered Beast <[email protected]> writes:

She is unfightable without a way of preventing her attacks. She has
no-cooldown spellcasting (like all demon lords), and casts summon angel, >>> summon devil, summon alien,

Which she'll use repeatedly when you put it on autoplay versus 52
dwarven lords.

What's autoplay?

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On 06.10.2024 23:42, Ron Nazarov wrote:

Janis Papanagnou <[email protected]> writes:

So where is the entry to that "sigil" branch?

Okay, I probably gave up too early...

LEVEL: "sigil" "none" @ (1, 0)

]...]

LEVEL: "stairs3" "none" @ (15, 0)

...retrying.

You could climb up all those levels, but a faster way is to read a
cursed scroll of teleportation on the first staircase level.
Levelporting on any of those staircase levels will always take you to
the sigil (which is the top of the spire and where the Lady of Pain is).

After having started to travel upwards the hard and boring way I
noticed that the walls are diggable, so I took other shortcuts at
least. (Still thinking 15 [non-functional] levels is too much.)

Janis

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Janis Papanagnou <[email protected]> writes:

On 06.10.2024 23:42, Ron Nazarov wrote:

Janis Papanagnou <[email protected]> writes:

So where is the entry to that "sigil" branch?

Okay, I probably gave up too early...

LEVEL: "sigil" "none" @ (1, 0)

]...]

LEVEL: "stairs3" "none" @ (15, 0)

...retrying.

You could climb up all those levels, but a faster way is to read a
cursed scroll of teleportation on the first staircase level.
Levelporting on any of those staircase levels will always take you to
the sigil (which is the top of the spire and where the Lady of Pain is).

After having started to travel upwards the hard and boring way I
noticed that the walls are diggable, so I took other shortcuts at
least. (Still thinking 15 [non-functional] levels is too much.)

On the contrary, 15 is not enough. The spire is supposed to be
infinite, but unfortunately having an infinite number of levels is not possible. Levelporting is how you're supposed to reach the sigil.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 13.10.2024 00:36, Ron Nazarov wrote:

Janis Papanagnou <[email protected]> writes:

On 06.10.2024 23:42, Ron Nazarov wrote:

Janis Papanagnou <[email protected]> writes:

So where is the entry to that "sigil" branch?

Okay, I probably gave up too early...

LEVEL: "sigil" "none" @ (1, 0)

]...]

LEVEL: "stairs3" "none" @ (15, 0)

...retrying.

You could climb up all those levels, but a faster way is to read a
cursed scroll of teleportation on the first staircase level.
Levelporting on any of those staircase levels will always take you to
the sigil (which is the top of the spire and where the Lady of Pain is).

After having started to travel upwards the hard and boring way I
noticed that the walls are diggable, so I took other shortcuts at
least. (Still thinking 15 [non-functional] levels is too much.)

On the contrary, 15 is not enough. The spire is supposed to be
infinite, but unfortunately having an infinite number of levels is not possible. Levelporting is how you're supposed to reach the sigil.

Is "the spire" an implementation referring to some book or film or
other source that describes it as infinite?

From the word alone, and also from a principal perspective, infinity
makes little sense, and I think less so in a dungeon game, let alone
from a game-play perspective.

Only from an artificial idea (or an "idee fixe" IMO) implementing an
infinite boring dungeon structure, such a concept seems justifiable.
If the goal is just to not let the topmost level of that branch be
reachable by climbing up, and making it reachable only by levelport,
it would be straightforward to omit the stairs and not bore players.

Your mileage may vary.

Since you say that it is supposed to be as it is, infinite any the
top only reachable by levelport; are you the inventor of that idea?
Then you could explain the idea behind that game-play "concept" and
its (intended or assumed) value (for players or else).

Janis

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Janis Papanagnou <[email protected]> writes:

On 13.10.2024 00:36, Ron Nazarov wrote:

Janis Papanagnou <[email protected]> writes:

On 06.10.2024 23:42, Ron Nazarov wrote:

Janis Papanagnou <[email protected]> writes:

So where is the entry to that "sigil" branch?

Okay, I probably gave up too early...

LEVEL: "sigil" "none" @ (1, 0)

]...]

LEVEL: "stairs3" "none" @ (15, 0)

...retrying.

You could climb up all those levels, but a faster way is to read a
cursed scroll of teleportation on the first staircase level.
Levelporting on any of those staircase levels will always take you to
the sigil (which is the top of the spire and where the Lady of Pain is). >>>

After having started to travel upwards the hard and boring way I
noticed that the walls are diggable, so I took other shortcuts at
least. (Still thinking 15 [non-functional] levels is too much.)

On the contrary, 15 is not enough. The spire is supposed to be
infinite, but unfortunately having an infinite number of levels is not
possible. Levelporting is how you're supposed to reach the sigil.

Is "the spire" an implementation referring to some book or film or
other source that describes it as infinite?

Yes: https://rilmani.org/timaresh/Spire

From the word alone, and also from a principal perspective, infinity
makes little sense, and I think less so in a dungeon game, let alone
from a game-play perspective.

Only from an artificial idea (or an "idee fixe" IMO) implementing an
infinite boring dungeon structure, such a concept seems justifiable.
If the goal is just to not let the topmost level of that branch be
reachable by climbing up, and making it reachable only by levelport,
it would be straightforward to omit the stairs and not bore players.

Your mileage may vary.

Since you say that it is supposed to be as it is, infinite any the
top only reachable by levelport; are you the inventor of that idea?
Then you could explain the idea behind that game-play "concept" and
its (intended or assumed) value (for players or else).

No, Demo implemented it in ndnh and I think the idea is from Tales from
the Infinite Staircase. I'm just repeating what he said about it in ##nethack-variants.

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