And just now I died from an adult purple worm. - Where and When? -
After only a few minutes playing, a few turns only, and soon after
entering dungeon level 3. - What can I learn from that; dungeon
levels below level 2 should not be entered without a wand of
death? (Which wouldn't have helped in a 1-turn swallow-and-die
attack.)
On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 10:18:16 AM UTC-7, Janis Papanagnou wrote: [...]
And just now I died from an adult purple worm. - Where and When? -
After only a few minutes playing, a few turns only, and soon after
entering dungeon level 3. - What can I learn from that; dungeon
levels below level 2 should not be entered without a wand of
death? (Which wouldn't have helped in a 1-turn swallow-and-die
attack.)
This could happen in nethack. Each time a shrieker shrieks,
[...]
[...] - What can I learn from that; dungeon
levels below level 2 should not be entered without a wand of
death? [...]
On 26.03.2023 22:12, Pat Rankin wrote:
On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 10:18:16 AM UTC-7, Janis Papanagnou wrote: [...]
And just now I died from an adult purple worm. - Where and When? -
After only a few minutes playing, a few turns only, and soon after
entering dungeon level 3. - What can I learn from that; dungeon
levels below level 2 should not be entered without a wand of
death? (Which wouldn't have helped in a 1-turn swallow-and-die
attack.)
This could happen in nethack. Each time a shrieker shrieks,Do shriekers appear that early? (Dlvl:3, XL:~1) - Anyway; there
was no shrieker around. I experienced shriekers to shriek only
when adjacent in combat [in Nethack]. (Has that changed, or do
I misremember?)
In EvilHack there's also the possibility that monsters fight
each other, IIUC, thus possible shriekers might shriek without
involving the player. (I don't recall that I've heard anything
like that, though.)
My first thought was a shape-changer (a chameleon), but would
that appear that early? Anyway, the result is the same; whether
in Nethack or any other variant, it's unbalanced (in my book).
Janis
[...]
On 26.03.2023 19:18, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
[...] - What can I learn from that; dungeon
levels below level 2 should not be entered without a wand of
death? [...]
Current game, a narrow early shop with mimics. Wanted to lure
one mimic out of the shop; sadly it was (that early) a large
mimics and I could not escape. Without Elbereth I took the risk
to zap an unidentified wand at it - and there it was, the above
mentioned ("lucky") wand of death! -, but unfortunately it was
cursed, it thus "backfired" (a EvilHack feature?) and outright
killed me. (No, I don't blame the game for that. It's actually
quite funny! But it fits the pattern.)
Janis
Personally it seems to me that - with arbitrary changes at least -
that can only be anticipated by being fully spoiled; this basically
means source code studies, since the (indeed long but in that respect
not very helpful) article in Wikipedia doesn't the least cover the
basics. This is what I have learned (on the meta-level).
Some recent cases; yesterday I wrote that
Recently I got an arch-lich at the orc-haunted mine-town variant.
Okay, bad luck! - Hmm.., bad luck, or bad game design? - Nethack
has occasionally also shape changers that appear in deadly shapes
early game. (Have the odds changed in this variant? Subjectively
it seems to me that this unbalance has become standard here.)
I already reported about unexpected and _arbitrary_ attack types,
like deadly illness from quite early appearing locusts; which has
no counterpart in real life (and I wondered about any rationale
for that). - What to do? - recently I died the second time (this
time in the Rat's mines-end level) to locusts hordes; no escape
path, no hilarious stack of any healing potions this time, that
would have been necessary.
Janis
Some recent cases; yesterday I wrote thatAlex, I'll take 'bad luck' for $800 please.
Recently I got an arch-lich at the orc-haunted mine-town variant.
Okay, bad luck! - Hmm.., bad luck, or bad game design? - Nethack
has occasionally also shape changers that appear in deadly shapes
early game. (Have the odds changed in this variant? Subjectively
it seems to me that this unbalance has become standard here.)
Shape changer odds of spawning hasn't changed from regular NetHack, neither have poly trap odds in the mines. I'm betting something stepped on a poly trap and you just got an unlucky RNG roll. It happens. I'm confident it's not due to bad game design.
Some recent cases; yesterday I wrote thatAlex, I'll take 'bad luck' for $800 please.
Recently I got an arch-lich at the orc-haunted mine-town variant.
Okay, bad luck! - Hmm.., bad luck, or bad game design? - Nethack
has occasionally also shape changers that appear in deadly shapes
early game. (Have the odds changed in this variant? Subjectively
it seems to me that this unbalance has become standard here.)
Shape changer odds of spawning hasn't changed from regular NetHack, neither have poly trap odds in the mines. I'm betting something stepped on a poly trap and you just got an unlucky RNG roll. It happens. I'm confident it's not due to bad game design.Minetown cannot generate at level 8, though, can it? Unless vanilla or
Evil changes something? Poly traps do not generate until level 8.
--
On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 1:18:16 PM UTC-4, Janis Papanagnou
wrote:
Personally it seems to me that - with arbitrary changes at least -
that can only be anticipated by being fully spoiled; this
basically means source code studies, since the (indeed long but in
that respect not very helpful) article in Wikipedia doesn't the
least cover the basics. This is what I have learned (on the
meta-level).
When Hack and NetHack first came out, there were no spoilers, at
least none that I knew about.
The 'world wide web' didn't exist as it does today back then.
And not everybody knows how to source dive - I
certainly didn't when I first started playing. I didn't even know
about Elbereth until after my second ascension. So you play, you
experience what comes your way, you remember/take notes, and if you
die, you try again, armed with the new knowledge you've acquired.
That's how it was done 'back in the day' and frankly it's a bit
distressing to see some players who won't try out *any* new game
unless they're completely spoiled beforehand. You can spoil yourself
if you want to, the wiki has a rather large entry for EvilHack, but I
would recommend experiencing it fresh. As long as you've been
playing, wouldn't that be refreshing in a way?
Some recent cases; yesterday I wrote that Recently I got an
arch-lich at the orc-haunted mine-town variant. Okay, bad luck! -
Hmm.., bad luck, or bad game design? - Nethack has occasionally
also shape changers that appear in deadly shapes early game. (Have
the odds changed in this variant? Subjectively it seems to me that
this unbalance has become standard here.)
Alex, I'll take 'bad luck' for $800 please.
Shape changer odds of spawning hasn't changed from regular NetHack,
neither have poly trap odds in the mines. I'm betting something
stepped on a poly trap and you just got an unlucky RNG roll. It
happens. I'm confident it's not due to bad game design.
I already reported about unexpected and _arbitrary_ attack types,
like deadly illness from quite early appearing locusts; which has
no counterpart in real life (and I wondered about any rationale for
that). - What to do? - recently I died the second time (this time
in the Rat's mines-end level) to locusts hordes; no escape path, no
hilarious stack of any healing potions this time, that would have
been necessary.
Locusts and their attack type was imported from SporkHack. That
variant has been around for a *long* time - given your experience,
I'm surprised you hadn't ever come across it until now.
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 1:05:37 AM UTC-4, Janis Papanagnou
wrote:
On 26.03.2023 19:18, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
[...] - What can I learn from that; dungeon levels below level 2
should not be entered without a wand of death? [...]
Current game, a narrow early shop with mimics. Wanted to lure one
mimic out of the shop; sadly it was (that early) a large mimics and
I could not escape. Without Elbereth I took the risk to zap an
unidentified wand at it - and there it was, the above mentioned
("lucky") wand of death! -, but unfortunately it was cursed, it
thus "backfired" (a EvilHack feature?) and outright killed me. (No,
I don't blame the game for that. It's actually quite funny! But it
fits the pattern.)
In EvilHack, a cursed wand has a small chance to backfire and target
you instead. This is also present in xNetHack, Hack'EM, and possibly
a couple other variants. Sometimes hard to keep track of what all
exists in which variant.
BTW, how brain-dead is it to change the "satiated / continue eating"
default value from 'no' to 'yes'. [...]
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 6:09:24 PM UTC-7, Janis Papanagnou wrote: [...]
BTW, how brain-dead is it to change the "satiated / continue eating" default value from 'no' to 'yes'. [...]
This is out of line. The old prompt was "stop eating?" with <space>
as a synonym for 'no' and there were valid complaints about that
over the years. The "new" prompt is "continue eating?" and <space>
is still 'no' but it now picks the safer choice. 'y' and 'n' are reversed from what they were in versions released twenty or more years ago
but If you decide to answer prompts without reading them, that's
on you, not on the game's design.
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 6:09:24 PM UTC-7, Janis Papanagnou wrote: [...]
BTW, how brain-dead is it to change the "satiated / continue eating"
default value from 'no' to 'yes'. [...]
This is out of line. The old prompt was "stop eating?" with <space>
as a synonym for 'no'
and there were valid complaints about that over the years.
The "new" prompt is "continue eating?" and <space>
is still 'no' but it now picks the safer choice. 'y' and 'n' are reversed from what they were in versions released twenty or more years ago
but If you decide to answer prompts without reading them, that's
on you, not on the game's design.
You started playing back when there was no '{stop|continue} eating?'
prompt at all and I don't recall ever seeing you complain about a
prompt being introduced for it. [...]
If Evilhack is too hard, nethack 3.6.x has undergone many
changes since the 3.6.0 you occasionally still complain about,
some to address things in 3.6.0 that players didn't like. The one
that comes immediately to mind is monster movement randomly
giving monsters an extra move. (For ones who get a fractional
amount of movement either above or below normal one move
per turn, the time when they'll get their fractional move has
stayed unpredictable compared with 3.4.3 and earlier, but it
no longer gets boosted like 3.6.0 had a small chance of doing.)
That's utter nonsense. It's not about reading it's about a sensible
user interface! If default values lead to deaths that's bad design.
(Difficulty and balance are completely different things. Slashem,
for example, is also "hard" but obviously a lot better balanced.)
Janis, I've been watching this unfold from the safety of my beloved
#evilhack IRC channel, but I couldn't resist replying to a few of the
more ridiculous things. Bad habits, I know.
That's utter nonsense. It's not about reading it's about a sensible
user interface! If default values lead to deaths that's bad
design.
Utter nonsense is actually a great way to describe this! The thing
you don't seem to understand is that you only think it's bad design
because you played versions with a different prompt. I started
playing with 3.6x and can confidently say that, after playing lots of
3.4.3, the current implementation is better. It makes sense. Press no
to stop, press yes to continue. It's simple and intuitive, and even
when I had played little of either version I still liked 3.6x's
version better, because the older prompt isn't intuitive. If you
smash the default input at every prompt, you're not going to do well
playing nethack. If you read the message, you will not choke.
[ rest snipped because based of wrong assumptions ]
(Difficulty and balance are completely different things. Slashem,
for example, is also "hard" but obviously a lot better balanced.)
I'm incredibly curious. Could you give an example? Or three? I have
heard a lot about slashem and none of it was praising balance. IMO
evilhack is meticulously balanced where it is currently. However, I
have not played much slashem, and I'd like to hear someone with your experience's take on it.
And finally, I saw your complaints about how locusts' attacks are
impossible to predict. You would be right, but there's been changes
to monster lookup. In evilhack you can use / ? to search info of a
monster, and it's not just the encyclopedia entry, but it will also
show you all the stats and attacks of that monster. I don't blame you
for not knowing about this, it's a bit hard to find out on your own.
Overall, why don't you just stop playing evilhack? You don't seem to
be enjoying it, you would probably have more fun with something
like... well, I don't know. shop around a little, there's a lot of
variants.
Couple things real quick, then I'm out of here; About the choking
thing. As far as I can tell, you are wrong. Incorrect. Pressing space
at the prompt, as far as I can tell, makes you stop eating. [...]
And again, my 'incorrect assumption' about locusts was based on
something YOU said. You complained that there was no way to know that
locusts had a sickness attack and that was bad design. You said it
was bad because you couldn't anticipate it. And yet, you knew about
monster lookup this entire time? that makes those comments blatantly
false, and yet you still took the time to complain about an imaginary problem.
On game balance, it seems that your philosophy is that it should only
be as challenging as slashem.
A tip regarding locusts anyway; they
are slower than you. You may have gotten unlucky with the rat king
mines level, which has slowing sewage, but then maybe your take away
from the locust incidents should be that you oughta get ahold of some
ranged weapons, wands, an instrument or a unicorn horn before going
too deep into the mines?
I think the point of evilhack's encounters
is to make solutions to them more difficult (and in my opinion, more
fun) to get out of, which encourages creative play using every
resource at your disposal. In any case, your criticism once again
fails to present an alternative or encourage any intelligent back and
forth.
To-be-3.7 has OPTIONS=paranoid_confirmation:eat
and evilhack has included that, but it isn't fully implemented.
[...] The old prompt was "stop eating?" with <space>
as a synonym for 'no' and there were valid complaints about that
over the years. The "new" prompt is "continue eating?" and <space>
is still 'no' but it now picks the safer choice. 'y' and 'n' are reversed
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