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  • Re: edition wars

    From gbbgu@21:1/5 to David Chmelik on Mon Oct 21 05:04:10 2024
    On 20 Oct 2024, David Chmelik wrote:

    false editions (minor variants started, but somewhat backwards-compatible)
    * AD&D 2e (half-false): major removals from AD&D 1e, but useful additions


    I do have a soft spot for 2e. It was my first edition that I bought with my
    own money.

    The other reason I like 2e, it added full page colour pictures and better layouts to the phb and dmg, and I think it was a well presented book. I don't know where the tri-column layout came from, but I miss it.

    --
    gbbgu

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  • From Justisaur@21:1/5 to David Chmelik on Fri Nov 8 05:29:36 2024
    On 10/22/2024 12:36 AM, David Chmelik wrote:
    On Mon, 21 Oct 2024 11:01:29 -0400, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
    You can't really hold up 1E and then say 2E is worse because of the
    system itself.

    People do because removed assassins, monks, etc... if bards, cavaliers, druids, rangers, thief-acrobats weren't removed, were significantly changed... Dungeon Master Guide (DMG) was significantly shortened,
    removing much good material. That's why my AD&D DM retained everything
    from AD&D 1e and used what he wanted from 2e. The point is by removing relevant material, it basically became a variant--like mostly a subset (smaller part of original with minor changes). The fact it was a money-
    grab by new CEO (gamers in general hated, because she considered them
    beneath her) after they got rid of the original D&D creators, is well- documented. That doesn't make it bad to play if one allows older
    compatible rules. Just, on their own, new editions overall got worse.

    My best campaigns were in 2e. I too used the 1e DMG to add certain bits
    back in though.

    I have to say the layouts and readability of 2e was better than any
    version before or after it.


    --
    -Justisaur

    ø-ø
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  • From Justisaur@21:1/5 to Kyonshi on Fri Nov 8 05:55:10 2024
    On 10/23/2024 10:49 AM, Kyonshi wrote:
    On 10/22/2024 5:27 PM, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:


    But I still hold that most of the complaints about 2E have less to do
    with the system itself than with the meta surrounding it: with Gygax's
    departure, with TSR's financial shenanigans, with the changing culture
    around tabletop RPGs, etc.


    I think the main issue was that a lot of stuff became much more
    sophisticated in writing and production, but that most of the stuff also
    felt incredibly generic. And of course it doesn't help that the whole
    idea of roleplaying went away from previous habits into the more
    railroady aspects the Hickmans did so successfully. Roleplaying became playing a role in a prewritten story, a development that still is
    happening, to the point that it's not even really possible to play a
    more freeform game of 5e in my opinion.

    (I also think that it's a valid expression of roleplaying as an artform,
    it's just not what DND started with and did best)

    I rarely if ever used 2e modules when I played 2e. Pretty much all
    homebrew or occasional 1e modules converted.

    I still think the majority of modules for 3e+ are pale garbage compared
    to the 1e & Basic modules. The most fun I've had playing 5e is right
    now my friend is running us through a an official converted B4 The Lost
    City.

    There was a couple parts of an adventure path I really enjoyed that he
    ran in 3e-3.5e, the rest of it was meh at best. I ran a different one
    which I found pretty bad. I read a starter module that sounded really
    good but I never got around to running it. I enjoyed running the
    starter module for 4e, but everything after that was not good on both
    sides.

    I did run a couple 3e campaigns that were very homebrew I enjoyed, but
    nothing in 3.5e or 4e homebrew turned out well. 5e was more hit and
    miss, I never got anything past 8th level, and there was one I ran with converted KotB that didn't go well, but Zenopus and Lost Isle of
    Castanamir did. I did have one homebrew I ran I kind of wished I'd kept
    going that I ended at 5th I think when I had difficulty keeping up with
    the pace of creating the adventures.

    --
    -Justisaur

    ø-ø
    (\_/)\
    `-'\ `--.___,
    ¶¬'\( ,_.-'
    \\
    ^'

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  • From Zaghadka@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Fri Nov 15 16:22:12 2024
    On Fri, 15 Nov 2024 12:05:50 -0500, Spalls Hurgenson <[email protected]> wrote:

    I think it just outlived itself. The original Dragonlance adventures
    might not be my favorite, but they told a story. The whole franchise was >>basically desperately searching for what it's point was afterwards, and >>failing.


    That's a problem with almost all Epics. Once you get to the end, it's >_really_ hard to move on from there. 'Congratulations, you've defeated
    the Big Bad... but now what?' Well, you can decide the Big Bad comes
    back, or maybe there's a bigger Bad, or maybe you just have some
    half-hearted adventures in the world you just saved... but none of
    those choices really have the same impact as the original quest. The
    best thing you can do is just move onto something new entirely.

    Babylon V handled it pretty well. Shadows are gone, as are all the elder
    god races. Well, now what? You thought they were the *real problem*, but somehow you still have problems, because there's never just one. There's
    the big one, and you made the mistake of ignoring the rest.

    It turned out that the BBEG became a distraction, their lurking allies
    are *pissed*, and other evils, now blossoming, have flourished. There are
    now multiple NQABBEGS (Not Quite As Big Bad Evil Guys). They're fighting
    for the scraps and doing a lot of collateral damage. And one of them, by
    the end of the campaign, will rise to become the new BBEG. After all, you
    can't take on all of them at once. Will you make the same mistake?

    Nothing half hearted about that. Heroing is hard.

    Now, Babylon V didn't produce good *tv* after the 4th season retaking of
    Earth, but the premise for the next season was great, and there were some
    real gems in their 5th season.

    I also have a boxed set of Crusader on my shelf as a cautionary tale.

    (Yes. This is a threadjacking to Babylon V. I didn't crosspost though
    because that group is dead.)

    --
    Zag

    No one ever said on their deathbed, 'Gee, I wish I had
    spent more time alone with my computer.' ~Dan(i) Bunten

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