• What kind of notation was predominantly used in the US in 1983?

    From The Horny Goat@21:1/5 to All on Thu Feb 17 18:59:56 2022
    Here's a question for all of you particularly the Americans.

    What kind of notation was predominantly used in the US in 1983? The
    point of my question is that that was the year Walter Tevis wrote The
    Queens Gambit and throughout the book (which was I think supposed to
    be taking place in the late 60s - which would make Beth Harmon about
    5-7 years younger than Fischer - which was certainly in the
    descriptive era but I'm pretty sure my scoresheets from 1983-84 were
    in algebraic. Certainly by the late 80s both Chess Life and Inside
    Chess were algebraic (and the figurine algebraic used by Chess
    Informant had a large part to do with the switch and they started in
    1965-66)

    (There's a section in the front of each Informant showing the standard
    symbols and descriptions in a dozen or so languages and to this day I
    remember ?? in Serbo-Croatian was 'gruba greska' which a Croatian
    fellow at the club taught us to say correctly)

    But Tevis wrote the Queens Gambit in 1983 so what notation would have
    been most common in the US at that time? (I watched the TV series when
    it came out but only finished the book earlier today)

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  • From Eli Kesef@21:1/5 to The Horny Goat on Thu Feb 17 22:12:36 2022
    On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 4:59:59 AM UTC+2, The Horny Goat wrote:
    Here's a question for all of you particularly the Americans.

    What kind of notation was predominantly used in the US in 1983? The
    point of my question is that that was the year Walter Tevis wrote The
    Queens Gambit and throughout the book (which was I think supposed to
    be taking place in the late 60s - which would make Beth Harmon about
    5-7 years younger than Fischer - which was certainly in the
    descriptive era but I'm pretty sure my scoresheets from 1983-84 were
    in algebraic. Certainly by the late 80s both Chess Life and Inside
    Chess were algebraic (and the figurine algebraic used by Chess
    Informant had a large part to do with the switch and they started in
    1965-66)

    (There's a section in the front of each Informant showing the standard symbols and descriptions in a dozen or so languages and to this day I remember ?? in Serbo-Croatian was 'gruba greska' which a Croatian
    fellow at the club taught us to say correctly)

    But Tevis wrote the Queens Gambit in 1983 so what notation would have
    been most common in the US at that time? (I watched the TV series when
    it came out but only finished the book earlier today)

    Bs"d

    How is the book?

    https://tinyurl.com/Q-gambit-pill

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  • From Ken Blake@21:1/5 to All on Fri Feb 18 09:20:06 2022
    On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 18:59:56 -0800, The Horny Goat <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    Here's a question for all of you particularly the Americans.

    "All of you" means the two or three of us. There's almost nobody still
    posting here, and most of the posts are by the very boring Eli Kesef,
    posting the same boring three or four games he's played (against
    different opponents) over and over and over and over again.


    What kind of notation was predominantly used in the US in 1983?

    I don't know for sure, but I *think* by then it was mostly algebraic.

    I stopped playing competitively around 1959, and almost everyone then
    still kept score in descriptive notation. I was one of the very few
    USAians who used algebraic (starting around 1955), mostly because I
    had several opening books that used algebraic and because I used to
    sometimes get copies of Shakhmaty which used algebraic. I used the
    notation I was most used to.

    My scoresheets were even stranger because I used the German initials
    for the names of the pieces, since I was used to German scores in my
    opening books in German (some written in German, some translated to
    German from the Russian).


    The
    point of my question is that that was the year Walter Tevis wrote The
    Queens Gambit and throughout the book (which was I think supposed to
    be taking place in the late 60s - which would make Beth Harmon about
    5-7 years younger than Fischer - which was certainly in the
    descriptive era but I'm pretty sure my scoresheets from 1983-84 were
    in algebraic. Certainly by the late 80s both Chess Life and Inside
    Chess were algebraic (and the figurine algebraic used by Chess
    Informant had a large part to do with the switch and they started in
    1965-66)


    The most recent Chess publication I have is the New York Times book on
    the 1972 Fischer-Spassky match (I bought it many years later when I
    found out that it had a picture of me in it). It's descriptive.

    (There's a section in the front of each Informant showing the standard >symbols and descriptions in a dozen or so languages

    I used to know the initials of the pieces in several languages besides
    English: German, Russian, Serbo-Croat, French, and others, but I've
    forgotten almost all except for German.

    and to this day I
    remember ?? in Serbo-Croatian was 'gruba greska' which a Croatian
    fellow at the club taught us to say correctly)

    But Tevis wrote the Queens Gambit in 1983 so what notation would have
    been most common in the US at that time? (I watched the TV series when
    it came out but only finished the book earlier today)


    Wait! I just found an article in my files by Hans Berliner, "From the
    Deathbed of 4. N-N5 in the Two Knights Defense," written in 1979,
    about the Fritz variation. It uses descriptive notation. That's not
    very far before 1983. I don't remember where I got the article. On the Internet? Somewhere else?

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  • From The Horny Goat@21:1/5 to All on Fri Feb 18 12:08:10 2022
    On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 09:20:06 -0700, Ken Blake <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 18:59:56 -0800, The Horny Goat <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    Here's a question for all of you particularly the Americans.

    "All of you" means the two or three of us. There's almost nobody still >posting here, and most of the posts are by the very boring Eli Kesef,
    posting the same boring three or four games he's played (against
    different opponents) over and over and over and over again.

    I tend to think that anybody who is in the 1800-2000 range or stronger
    who loses as quickly as is typical in Kesef's traps is either
    distracted or unprepared. I have reached losing positions as quickly
    as those but not many. (I've spent most of my adult career in the
    1700-1900 range - and am best known for my events which in 2003 got me
    an International Arbiter title which I've let go dormant when FIDE
    introduced licence fees - since I think a lot of the FIDE titles below
    IM are mostly cash grabs - though it hangs on my wall next to my MBA
    diploma and my Distinguished Toastmaster plaque)

    What kind of notation was predominantly used in the US in 1983?

    I don't know for sure, but I *think* by then it was mostly algebraic.

    That's what I thought though of course it would have been descriptive
    in 1969-71 when Beth Harmon was doing her magic. For instance MCO 10
    was descriptive (I think - am not going to go to my shelf to check)
    though I'm pretty sure MCO 12 was algebraic or figurine algebraic.

    I stopped playing competitively around 1959, and almost everyone then
    still kept score in descriptive notation. I was one of the very few
    USAians who used algebraic (starting around 1955), mostly because I
    had several opening books that used algebraic and because I used to
    sometimes get copies of Shakhmaty which used algebraic. I used the
    notation I was most used to.

    The Queen's Gambit was set in the late 60s which at least in North
    America would have been the descriptive era. Informant started in 1966
    and was figurine algebraic from the beginning while in Europe
    generally algebraic was the name of the day. I saw one of Spassky's
    scoresheets and it was definitely algebraic with the names of the
    pieces being in Russian of course.

    When I lived in Winnipeg (mid 1980s) I hung around the Communist
    bookstore since they got imports of Russian chess books - I was gifted
    about 3-4 years worth of Shahmaty Bulletin (which I subsequently
    re-gifted when downsizing) from the late 1970s early 80s and they were
    all Cyrillic algebraic. This is of course where I met Abe Yanofsky and
    heard him reminisce about Groningen and how that changed his life. (He
    entered law school on the Canadian GI bill shortly after and besides
    playing chess had his law practice plus was a powerful city councillor
    which opened the door to a lot of excellent tournament sites)

    My scoresheets were even stranger because I used the German initials
    for the names of the pieces, since I was used to German scores in my
    opening books in German (some written in German, some translated to
    German from the Russian).

    The most recent Chess publication I have is the New York Times book on
    the 1972 Fischer-Spassky match (I bought it many years later when I
    found out that it had a picture of me in it). It's descriptive.

    Is that the one with the white cover about 6" x 8" in size? (I've got
    that - in my opinion it was the best of the Reykjavik match books all
    of which were published before the end of 1972) I've said before here
    that in my opinion Informant 12 was the best of the series since it
    includes all of Reykjavik 1972 plus that year's Olympiad.

    and to this day I
    remember ?? in Serbo-Croatian was 'gruba greska' which a Croatian
    fellow at the club taught us to say correctly)

    But Tevis wrote the Queens Gambit in 1983 so what notation would have
    been most common in the US at that time? (I watched the TV series when
    it came out but only finished the book earlier today)


    Wait! I just found an article in my files by Hans Berliner, "From the >Deathbed of 4. N-N5 in the Two Knights Defense," written in 1979,
    about the Fritz variation. It uses descriptive notation. That's not
    very far before 1983. I don't remember where I got the article. On the >Internet? Somewhere else?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Ken Blake@21:1/5 to All on Fri Feb 18 15:24:24 2022
    On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 12:08:10 -0800, The Horny Goat <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 09:20:06 -0700, Ken Blake <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 18:59:56 -0800, The Horny Goat <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    Here's a question for all of you particularly the Americans.

    "All of you" means the two or three of us. There's almost nobody still >>posting here, and most of the posts are by the very boring Eli Kesef, >>posting the same boring three or four games he's played (against
    different opponents) over and over and over and over again.

    I tend to think that anybody who is in the 1800-2000 range or stronger
    who loses as quickly as is typical in Kesef's traps is either
    distracted or unprepared.

    Yep.


    I have reached losing positions as quickly
    as those but not many. (I've spent most of my adult career in the
    1700-1900 range - and am best known for my events which in 2003 got me
    an International Arbiter title which I've let go dormant when FIDE
    introduced licence fees - since I think a lot of the FIDE titles below
    IM are mostly cash grabs - though it hangs on my wall next to my MBA
    diploma and my Distinguished Toastmaster plaque)

    What kind of notation was predominantly used in the US in 1983?

    I don't know for sure, but I *think* by then it was mostly algebraic.

    That's what I thought though of course it would have been descriptive
    in 1969-71 when Beth Harmon was doing her magic. For instance MCO 10
    was descriptive (I think - am not going to go to my shelf to check)
    though I'm pretty sure MCO 12 was algebraic or figurine algebraic.

    I stopped playing competitively around 1959, and almost everyone then
    still kept score in descriptive notation. I was one of the very few
    USAians who used algebraic (starting around 1955), mostly because I
    had several opening books that used algebraic and because I used to >>sometimes get copies of Shakhmaty which used algebraic. I used the
    notation I was most used to.

    The Queen's Gambit was set in the late 60s which at least in North
    America would have been the descriptive era. Informant started in 1966
    and was figurine algebraic from the beginning while in Europe
    generally algebraic was the name of the day. I saw one of Spassky's >scoresheets and it was definitely algebraic with the names of the
    pieces being in Russian of course.

    When I lived in Winnipeg (mid 1980s) I hung around the Communist
    bookstore since they got imports of Russian chess books - I was gifted
    about 3-4 years worth of Shahmaty Bulletin (which I subsequently
    re-gifted when downsizing) from the late 1970s early 80s and they were
    all Cyrillic algebraic. This is of course where I met Abe Yanofsky and
    heard him reminisce about Groningen and how that changed his life. (He >entered law school on the Canadian GI bill shortly after and besides
    playing chess had his law practice plus was a powerful city councillor
    which opened the door to a lot of excellent tournament sites)

    My scoresheets were even stranger because I used the German initials
    for the names of the pieces, since I was used to German scores in my >>opening books in German (some written in German, some translated to
    German from the Russian).

    The most recent Chess publication I have is the New York Times book on
    the 1972 Fischer-Spassky match (I bought it many years later when I
    found out that it had a picture of me in it). It's descriptive.

    Is that the one with the white cover about 6" x 8" in size?


    Yes.


    (I've got that

    Look at the bottom picture just after page 122. At the back, about in
    the middle is a young man with glasses and a horizontally-striped
    shirt. That's me.

    To my left is Bill Lombardy, pointing at something. He was a good
    friend of mine.

    To his left is Aben Rudy, who was my closest chess friend. He's still
    alive (he's 86) and is still a close friend. Although we live in
    different places and haven't seen each other in several years, we
    still correspond by e-mail.

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  • From William Hyde@21:1/5 to The Horny Goat on Fri Feb 18 15:09:25 2022
    On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 3:08:14 PM UTC-5, The Horny Goat wrote:
    On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 09:20:06 -0700, Ken Blake <[email protected]>
    wrote:
    On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 18:59:56 -0800, The Horny Goat <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    Here's a question for all of you particularly the Americans.

    "All of you" means the two or three of us. There's almost nobody still >posting here, and most of the posts are by the very boring Eli Kesef, >posting the same boring three or four games he's played (against
    different opponents) over and over and over and over again.
    I tend to think that anybody who is in the 1800-2000 range or stronger
    who loses as quickly as is typical in Kesef's traps is either
    distracted or unprepared.

    You are paying too much attention to the numbers. Lichess may rate them 1800, but they are not 1800 CFC. The 1800 players are about 1200. Ratings inflation is a serious problem in such systems, and there is no motivation to take care of this, because
    players like being "highly rated".


    I have reached losing positions as quickly
    as those but not many. (I've spent most of my adult career in the
    1700-1900 range

    I suspect that if you played Lichess, you'd be 2200. The overrating in such systems is not consistent, not being as bad at the high end.

    William Hyde

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  • From The Horny Goat@21:1/5 to All on Sat Feb 19 01:07:38 2022
    On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 15:24:24 -0700, Ken Blake <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    The most recent Chess publication I have is the New York Times book on >>>the 1972 Fischer-Spassky match (I bought it many years later when I
    found out that it had a picture of me in it). It's descriptive.

    Is that the one with the white cover about 6" x 8" in size?

    Yes.

    (I've got that

    Look at the bottom picture just after page 122. At the back, about in
    the middle is a young man with glasses and a horizontally-striped
    shirt. That's me.

    To my left is Bill Lombardy, pointing at something. He was a good
    friend of mine.

    OK will have to dig it out at some point - that section of the
    bookshelf currently has two stacks of boxes in front of it (with a
    plastic jack-o-lantern in front of it which didn't get used this year
    as my unvaxxed wife didn't want to deal with kids on Halloween)

    To his left is Aben Rudy, who was my closest chess friend. He's still
    alive (he's 86) and is still a close friend. Although we live in
    different places and haven't seen each other in several years, we
    still correspond by e-mail.

    Will try to keep it in mind when I grab the book. Am pretty sure I
    would recognize Lombardy either with or without collar.

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  • From Quadibloc@21:1/5 to The Horny Goat on Thu Mar 3 18:19:11 2022
    On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 7:59:59 PM UTC-7, The Horny Goat wrote:

    But Tevis wrote the Queens Gambit in 1983 so what notation would have
    been most common in the US at that time?

    It was in 1981 that FIDE stopped recognizing descriptive chess notation, so from
    that point onwards, chess players in international tournaments had to record their
    moves in algebraic.

    But even in 1983, descriptive notation was used along with algebraic in the pages of Chess Life. I'm not sure in what year the USCF made algebraic the only recognized notation in the U.S..

    John Savard

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