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  • Legal question

    From [email protected]@21:1/5 to All on Wed May 3 06:10:38 2023
    Are there any legal restrictions on the movements of checkers
    before players pick up the dice?
    I've never heard of any such rules, but I would think that this part
    of the process needs to be carefully controlled.
    For example, suppose a player rolled 55. The player then
    experiments with three moves of 5, and pauses to look for
    the final 5. While pausing, she decides that she doesn't like
    those three 5s. So she undoes two of the 3 moves of 5.
    She continues in the same vein, never actually showing the
    play of 4 moves of 5 until the end, but constantly reversing
    fragments of the play.
    This could get thoroughly confusing for the opposition, and make
    it incredibly difficult to track that the position is being resurrected
    clearly each time.
    There oughtta be a law against it.

    Paul

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  • From Timothy Chow@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Wed May 3 13:41:39 2023
    On 5/3/2023 9:10 AM, [email protected] wrote:
    Are there any legal restrictions on the movements of checkers
    before players pick up the dice?

    Here's what the USBGF says.

    While testing a play, a moved checker should be offset
    above its intended destination. A hit checker should
    either be covered by the hitting checker or moved to
    the tip of the point it is on, rather than to the bar. A hit
    checker so positioned when the turn is ended must be
    placed on the bar. The original position should be
    restored before testing another play.

    https://usbgf.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/rules.pdf

    ---
    Tim Chow

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  • From Axel Reichert@21:1/5 to Timothy Chow on Wed May 3 20:01:22 2023
    Timothy Chow <[email protected]> writes:

    Here's what the USBGF says.

    Is anyone aware of rulings for creative motion of the checkers by some
    "cool" (wannabee?) players in, e.g., the following situation:

    Imagine the starting position and a roll of 42, played as a slot
    13/7. The player takes a checker off his midpoint and pushes it against
    the bottom-most checker on the 8-point such that the latter slides
    through to the bar-point and the former now is the bottom-most checker
    on the 8-point. While the end result is the same, these kind of plays
    can be quite confusing. Would you argue that technically a 51 was
    played, and thus this behaviour is illegal?

    Best regards

    Axel

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  • From Axel Reichert@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Wed May 3 19:49:18 2023
    "[email protected]" <[email protected]> writes:

    Are there any legal restrictions on the movements of checkers
    before players pick up the dice?

    Not that I know. I would insist on completely restoring the original
    position anyway, for etiquette reasons. In a chouette sometimes new
    members of the team (not the captain) "help" moving the checkers. This
    will be stopped, and in my club we have a rule for this.

    Best regards

    Axel

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  • From Axel Reichert@21:1/5 to Timothy Chow on Wed May 3 19:52:06 2023
    Timothy Chow <[email protected]> writes:

    While testing a play, a moved checker should be offset
    above its intended destination.

    I do this as well and advise other to do so, too.

    A hit checker should either be covered by the hitting checker or moved
    to the tip of the point it is on, rather than to the bar.

    That's a good idea, thanks for the pointer!

    Best regards

    Axel

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  • From MK@21:1/5 to Axel Reichert on Wed May 3 11:30:46 2023
    On May 3, 2023 at 12:01:26 PM UTC-6, Axel Reichert wrote:

    Imagine the starting position and a roll of 42,
    player takes a checker off his midpoint and
    pushes it against the bottom-most checker
    on the 8-point ... the end result is the same,
    these kind of plays can be quite confusing.

    In coffee house style backgammon in Turkey,
    such tricky moves were very common at least
    in the past, aiming at breaking the monotony,
    adding some fun to boring opening moves, etc.

    One such move that I remember very clearly
    is how my dad played opening 66's at times.
    He would move two checkers from 24 to 7,
    and two from 13 to 18 point. Such moves often
    would perplex even experienced players for a
    second and were not only considered perfectly
    legal but also as a characteristic of the game.

    MK

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  • From [email protected]@21:1/5 to All on Thu May 4 09:57:36 2023
    On Wednesday, May 3, 2023 at 7:30:48 PM UTC+1, MK wrote:
    On May 3, 2023 at 12:01:26 PM UTC-6, Axel Reichert wrote:

    Imagine the starting position and a roll of 42,
    player takes a checker off his midpoint and
    pushes it against the bottom-most checker
    on the 8-point ... the end result is the same,
    these kind of plays can be quite confusing.
    In coffee house style backgammon in Turkey,
    such tricky moves were very common at least
    in the past, aiming at breaking the monotony,
    adding some fun to boring opening moves, etc.

    One such move that I remember very clearly
    is how my dad played opening 66's at times.
    He would move two checkers from 24 to 7,
    and two from 13 to 18 point. Such moves often
    would perplex even experienced players for a
    second and were not only considered perfectly
    legal but also as a characteristic of the game.

    MK

    Thanks, Murat.
    This is a great post for (at least)
    the following reasons.

    1) Completely relevant to Axel's point.
    2) Draws on remembered experience.
    3) Interestingly described.
    4) Clearly described.
    5) Expresses a clear point of view.
    6) Uses appropriate language.

    Paul

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  • From [email protected]@21:1/5 to Axel Reichert on Thu May 4 09:51:25 2023
    On Wednesday, May 3, 2023 at 7:01:26 PM UTC+1, Axel Reichert wrote:
    Timothy Chow <[email protected]> writes:

    Here's what the USBGF says.
    Is anyone aware of rulings for creative motion of the checkers by some "cool" (wannabee?) players in, e.g., the following situation:

    Imagine the starting position and a roll of 42, played as a slot
    13/7. The player takes a checker off his midpoint and pushes it against
    the bottom-most checker on the 8-point such that the latter slides
    through to the bar-point and the former now is the bottom-most checker
    on the 8-point. While the end result is the same, these kind of plays
    can be quite confusing. Would you argue that technically a 51 was
    played, and thus this behaviour is illegal?


    No, we can not make this argument.
    We must not make this argument.
    We will not make this argument.

    Here is a proof by contradiction that this argument breaks down.
    Suppose an event is being run to introduce beginners to the game.
    Suppose a player rolls 42 in a situation where the slots on 12 to 7
    are all empty. Suppose the player has weak visualisation and counting
    skills and has to count out the play. So the player touches the 12 slot
    with the midpoint checker, then touches the 11 slot with the same checker, then touches the 10 slot, then touches the 9 slot. Then the player pauses briefly (having
    played the 4). The player then plays from 9 to 7 the same way, maintaining a grip
    on the moved checker throughout the process.
    Now, suppose the rule allowed an opponent to complain by differentiating between 51
    and 42 even when both plays lead to the same result.
    An expert complainer could then state that the pause was actually after landing on the 8
    point, rather than after landing on the 9 point, and that 51 instead of 42 was therefore played.
    Would a TD really get involved? Well, no. So a TD couldn't distinguish between 51 and 42
    in your scenario either.
    So no, no one should complain about the 42 played the way you stated.
    It's this type of spurious complaint that led people to vote for Brexit, and that didn't
    work out well.

    Paul

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  • From MK@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Thu May 4 14:27:03 2023
    On May 4, 2023 at 10:57:37 AM UTC-6, [email protected] wrote:

    Thanks, Murat.
    This is a great post for (at least)
    the following reasons.

    1) Completely relevant to Axel's point.
    2) Draws on remembered experience.
    3) Interestingly described.
    4) Clearly described.
    5) Expresses a clear point of view.
    6) Uses appropriate language.

    Oops. You caught me backstage,
    taking a break between acts...

    MK

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