GNU Backgammon Position ID: bdsAgBk/YwAAAA
Match ID : UollAUAAKAAE
+24-23-22-21-20-19------18-17-16-15-14-13-+ O: gnubg
| O O O O O O | | | 4 points
| O O O O O | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| |BAR| |v 11 point match
X | 6 | | |
X | X | | |
X | X | | |
X | X O X O X | | | Rolled 31
X | X O X O X | | | 5 points
+-1--2--3--4--5--6-------7--8--9-10-11-12-+ X: axel (Cube: 4)
Pip counts: O 129, X 24

Hint: It's not about the score.

Best regards

Axel

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Friday, March 10, 2023 at 1:58:38 PM UTC-5, Axel Reichert wrote:

GNU Backgammon Position ID: bdsAgBk/YwAAAA
Match ID : UollAUAAKAAE
+24-23-22-21-20-19------18-17-16-15-14-13-+ O: gnubg
| O O O O O O | | | 4 points
| O O O O O | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| |BAR| |v 11 point match
X | 6 | | |
X | X | | |
X | X | | |
X | X O X O X | | | Rolled 31
X | X O X O X | | | 5 points
+-1--2--3--4--5--6-------7--8--9-10-11-12-+ X: axel (Cube: 4)
Pip counts: O 129, X 24

Hint: It's not about the score.

Best regards

Axel

5, 3 seems clear to me. Twenty shots now and an easy clean up when missed. With the other play probably around half the rolls leave a shot/double shot so cumulatively it's far fewer shots to leave more now.

Stick

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On March 10, 2023 at 11:58:38 AM UTC-7, Axel Reichert wrote:

GNU Backgammon Position ID: bdsAgBk/YwAAAA
Match ID : UollAUAAKAAE
O: gnubg
O 4 points
11 point match
X 31
X 5 points
X: axel (Cube: 4)

Hint: It's not about the score.

Why the need for the hint?

Are you hinting at my recent posts about the bots
adjusting their checker decisions based on score?

Do you think you could post a position from an 11
point match, with either side owning the cube at 4,
where the checker decision would depend on score?

(Preferably the above position, a similar one to it or
even a completely different situation.)

I know you don't work for me and you probably have
been Waltized by the church but it thought I may be
worth a try to dare you in front of your arithmetician
peers... ;)

MK

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

MK <[email protected]> writes:

On March 10, 2023 at 11:58:38 AM UTC-7, Axel Reichert wrote:

Hint: It's not about the score.

Why the need for the hint?

Because surprising checker plays or cube decisions are often related to lop-sided match scores or high cubes.

Do you think you could post a position from an 11
point match, with either side owning the cube at 4,
where the checker decision would depend on score?

Opening rolls with the cube at 1 will already do: Gammon Save versus
Gammon Go.

Axel

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On March 11, 2023 at 9:09:29 AM UTC-7, Axel Reichert wrote:

MK <[email protected]> writes:

On March 10, 2023 at 11:58:38 AM UTC-7, Axel Reichert wrote:

Hint: It's not about the score.

Why the need for the hint?

Because surprising checker plays or cube decisions are
often related to lop-sided match scores or high cubes.

The score is not lop-sided and because of what was on
my mind when I read it, I took it as an alluding comment.

Do you think you could post a position from an 11
point match, with either side owning the cube at 4,
where the checker decision would depend on score?

Opening rolls with the cube at 1 will already do:
Gammon Save versus Gammon Go.

Oops. :( While thinking of two different things at once, I
totally confused what I wrote and exaggerated a little. :)

I should have at least stuck to my objection to Tim and
Bob in another thread that the position itself should not
the variant and not go beyond saying "a similar position".
Otherwise, of course, anything is possible...

Your hint that got me going was about score. So I should
have limited my challenge to position and score only. You
may do a retake based on this or just for get about it...

MK

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 3/10/2023 1:58 PM, Axel Reichert wrote:

GNU Backgammon Position ID: bdsAgBk/YwAAAA
Match ID : UollAUAAKAAE
+24-23-22-21-20-19------18-17-16-15-14-13-+ O: gnubg
| O O O O O O | | | 4 points
| O O O O O | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| |BAR| |v 11 point match
X | 6 | | |
X | X | | |
X | X | | |
X | X O X O X | | | Rolled 31
X | X O X O X | | | 5 points
+-1--2--3--4--5--6-------7--8--9-10-11-12-+ X: axel (Cube: 4)
Pip counts: O 129, X 24

3/off 1/off leaves the fewest immediate shots, but will likely
leave a double shot next turn. I would pay now, despite O's
five-point board. The question is whether to play 6/3 1/off
or 6/5 6/3. I would take an extra checker off despite leaving
22 hitting rolls instead of 20 hitting rolls, because the extra
checker off will make a difference if we are hit.

---
Tim Chow

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Axel Reichert <[email protected]> writes:

GNU Backgammon Position ID: Bdsagbk/Ywaaaa
Match Id : Uollauaakaae
+24-23-22-21-20-19------18-17-16-15-14-13-+ O: gnubg
| O O O O O O | | | 4 points
| O O O O O | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| |BAR| |v 11 point match
X | 6 | | |
X | X | | |
X | X | | |
X | X O X O X | | | Rolled 31
X | X O X O X | | | 5 points
+-1--2--3--4--5--6-------7--8--9-10-11-12-+ X: axel (Cube: 4)
Pip counts: O 129, X 24

Paying now is correct. I am a little surprised that ripping off two
checkers is so much worse.

1. Rollout 6/5 6/3 Eq.: +0.451
0.585 0.447 0.040 - 0.415 0.000 0.000 CL +0.425 CF +0.451
[0.002 0.004 0.008 - 0.002 0.000 0.000 CL 0.006 CF 0.006]
Truncated cubeful rollout (depth 6) with variance reduction
36 games, Mersenne Twister dice gen. with seed 449002682 and quasi-random dice
Stop when std.errs. are small enough: limit 0.0100 (min. 36 games)
Play: world class 2-ply cubeful prune [world class]
keep the first 0 0-ply moves and up to 8 more moves within equity 0.16
Skip pruning for 1-ply moves.
Cube: 2-ply cubeful prune [world class]
Different evaluations after 2 plies:
Play: 1-ply cubeful
keep the first 0 0-ply moves and up to 8 more moves within equity 0.16
Cube: 2-ply cubeful prune [world class]
2. Rollout 6/3 1/off Eq.: +0.379 (-0.072)
0.562 0.383 0.052 - 0.438 0.000 0.000 CL +0.343 CF +0.379
[0.003 0.004 0.010 - 0.003 0.000 0.000 CL 0.007 CF 0.008]
Truncated cubeful rollout (depth 6) with variance reduction
36 games, Mersenne Twister dice gen. with seed 449002682 and quasi-random dice
Stop when std.errs. are small enough: limit 0.0100 (min. 36 games)
Play: world class 2-ply cubeful prune [world class]
keep the first 0 0-ply moves and up to 8 more moves within equity 0.16
Skip pruning for 1-ply moves.
Cube: 2-ply cubeful prune [world class]
Different evaluations after 2 plies:
Play: 1-ply cubeful
keep the first 0 0-ply moves and up to 8 more moves within equity 0.16
Cube: 2-ply cubeful prune [world class]
3. Rollout 3/off 1/off Eq.: +0.325 (-0.125)
0.537 0.381 0.075 - 0.463 0.000 0.000 CL +0.287 CF +0.325
[0.003 0.003 0.011 - 0.003 0.000 0.000 CL 0.007 CF 0.010]
Truncated cubeful rollout (depth 6) with variance reduction
46 games, Mersenne Twister dice gen. with seed 449002682 and quasi-random dice
Stop when std.errs. are small enough: limit 0.0100 (min. 36 games)
Play: world class 2-ply cubeful prune [world class]
keep the first 0 0-ply moves and up to 8 more moves within equity 0.16
Skip pruning for 1-ply moves.
Cube: 2-ply cubeful prune [world class]
Different evaluations after 2 plies:
Play: 1-ply cubeful
keep the first 0 0-ply moves and up to 8 more moves within equity 0.16
Cube: 2-ply cubeful prune [world class]

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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