I would love to have a nice telescoping heavy gantry crane, but I don't
need one often enough to pay the price for one as heavy as I would like.
I do have a metal building with a large I-beam across the center. The building is 60' outside dimension, but the unsupported beam (bolted
together in the middle at the peak with large flanges) is about 55 feet eyeballing the dimensions. Maybe less. The incline is about 4 degrees.

I'm playing with the idea of putting a beam clamp on the I-Beam and
putting a chain fall on it about 8 feet from the support column on that
end. With a 16' eve height a 15' chain fall should allow for laying the
hook on the floor. Mostly it would get used for outboards, small
blocks, and maybe the occasional big block engine. All under a half
ton, but the immediate thing that got me thinking about it is the
Bridgeport Series 1 CNC mill on a trailer in the shop right now.
Depending on where I look it weighs between 2000 and 3000 pounds. The
spec sheet I am most likely to trust puts it at 2600 pounds. Its not overloading the tires or the axle on the trailer I hauled it on. That
trailer has a single 3500lb axle, but a few years ago when I hauled ten
sheets of 1/4 inch A36 it was very close to max for the rig. That would
have been around 3264 lbs. So the mill has to be significantly less
than that. I have heavier trailers, but one is high deck and one has rails.

My thought is the beam is certainly heavy enough if it was a short span
like a gantry crane, but being a 55 ft span I might be playing with fire
if I were to try a heavy lift near the middle. I am hoping near the end
more of the load will be vertical on the support column.

In order to avoid slipping I'd put the type of beam clamp used with all
thread to support conduit, ducting, and sprinkler lines on the bottom
flange of the beam on the downhill side of the lifting beam clamp on
each side.

It would be a single (more or less) short duration load so that I could
lift the mill, roll the trailer out from under, and lower the mill onto
a heavy pallet, so it can be positioned with a pallet jack and
eventually set on the floor with my cherry picker (engine crane). The
last part is how I moved, positioned, and set the South Bend mill (which
is over 3500 pounds). The cherry picker won't go high enough to lift
the mill off the trailer.

I don't know how dumb my idea is, but I'm probably going to go for it.
The load time would be measured in a couple minutes, but my thought is something like this is either going to be strong enough. Or it isn't.

How did I unload the Hurco (4000lbs) you might ask? Yeah, that wasn't
pretty, and I don't have all of that equipment anymore.

It it works I'd leave everything in place, and just swing the chains
over out of the way behind a hook on the support column.


--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff

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Bob La Londe <[email protected]> wrote:

I would love to have a nice telescoping heavy gantry crane, but I don't
need one often enough to pay the price for one as heavy as I would like.
I do have a metal building with a large I-beam across the center. The building is 60' outside dimension, but the unsupported beam (bolted
together in the middle at the peak with large flanges) is about 55 feet eyeballing the dimensions. Maybe less. The incline is about 4 degrees.

I'm playing with the idea of putting a beam clamp on the I-Beam and
putting a chain fall on it about 8 feet from the support column on
that end. With a 16' eve height a 15' chain fall should allow for
laying the hook on the floor. [...snip...] Bridgeport Series 1 CNC
mill on a trailer in the shop right now. Depending on where I look
it weighs between 2000 and 3000 pounds. [...snip...]

My thought is the beam is certainly heavy enough if it was a short span
like a gantry crane, but being a 55 ft span I might be playing with fire
if I were to try a heavy lift near the middle. I am hoping near the end
more of the load will be vertical on the support column. [...snip...]

It would be a single (more or less) short duration load so that I
could lift the mill, roll the trailer out from under, and lower the
mill onto a heavy pallet, so it can be positioned with a pallet jack
and eventually set on the floor with my cherry picker (engine
crane). The last part is how I moved, positioned, and set the South
Bend mill (which is over 3500 pounds). The cherry picker won't go
high enough to lift the mill off the trailer.

I don't know how dumb my idea is, but I'm probably going to go for
it. The load time would be measured in a couple minutes, but my
thought is something like this is either going to be strong
enough. Or it isn't. [...snip...]

You might run a test, lifting say 800#, 1600#, etc while measuring
mid-ceiling deflection, eg with a Bosch laser measure, then
extrapolate to "safe" maximum weight. Of course, if the deflection is
too small to measure (eg <5mm) then probably no worries. Or if it's
several inches, lifting via the ceiling beam would be a no go.*
It's the in-between deflection cases that would be harder to decide...

Whether you can reasonably extrapolate also depends on how the support
column at the wall is braced. Given the 16' eve height, Euler
buckling could occur without warning if the column's not braced both
ways when you exceed critical load. Also see***.

* If ceiling beam lift is no go, you might end up using dual rows of
stacked cribbing, eg crib a platform beside the trailer up to trailer
height, move palleted mill onto platform, and use pallet jack to
alternately take out layers of cribbing.**

** Say pallet jack has 3" min and 8" max to top of forks; and suppose
24" of cribbing between floor and mill's pallet; and 16" of cribbing
between top of forks and pallet. Raise jack a little, remove 4" of
cribbing, lower jack 5", remove 4" of cribbing on jack, raise jack 5",
etc. Ends with forks under the pallet, not in the pallet.

*** If the wall's well-braced you could put your beam clamp nearer the
wall instead of 8' out, and have a winch line across the shop to hold
the chain fall hook out from the wall. [However, if the clamp were
right at the wall I think resultant forces would be about 90% on the
chain fall and 45% on the winch line, which sounds like a high enough
sideways force on the wall to raise the possibility of some exciting
video footage. ... In the grocery store a couple of weeks ago, I
heard one guy say, "How's it going, Bill?", and Bill replies, "Going
great, just great! But it's early enough the whole day could still go sideways."]

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On 8/8/2024 11:03 PM, James Waldby wrote:

Bob La Londe <[email protected]> wrote:

I would love to have a nice telescoping heavy gantry crane, but I don't
need one often enough to pay the price for one as heavy as I would like.
I do have a metal building with a large I-beam across the center. The
building is 60' outside dimension, but the unsupported beam (bolted
together in the middle at the peak with large flanges) is about 55 feet
eyeballing the dimensions. Maybe less. The incline is about 4 degrees.

I'm playing with the idea of putting a beam clamp on the I-Beam and
putting a chain fall on it about 8 feet from the support column on
that end. With a 16' eve height a 15' chain fall should allow for
laying the hook on the floor. [...snip...] Bridgeport Series 1 CNC
mill on a trailer in the shop right now. Depending on where I look
it weighs between 2000 and 3000 pounds. [...snip...]

My thought is the beam is certainly heavy enough if it was a short span
like a gantry crane, but being a 55 ft span I might be playing with fire
if I were to try a heavy lift near the middle. I am hoping near the end
more of the load will be vertical on the support column. [...snip...]

It would be a single (more or less) short duration load so that I
could lift the mill, roll the trailer out from under, and lower the
mill onto a heavy pallet, so it can be positioned with a pallet jack
and eventually set on the floor with my cherry picker (engine
crane). The last part is how I moved, positioned, and set the South
Bend mill (which is over 3500 pounds). The cherry picker won't go
high enough to lift the mill off the trailer.

I don't know how dumb my idea is, but I'm probably going to go for
it. The load time would be measured in a couple minutes, but my
thought is something like this is either going to be strong
enough. Or it isn't. [...snip...]

You might run a test, lifting say 800#, 1600#, etc while measuring mid-ceiling deflection, eg with a Bosch laser measure, then
extrapolate to "safe" maximum weight. Of course, if the deflection is
too small to measure (eg <5mm) then probably no worries. Or if it's
several inches, lifting via the ceiling beam would be a no go.*
It's the in-between deflection cases that would be harder to decide...

Whether you can reasonably extrapolate also depends on how the support
column at the wall is braced. Given the 16' eve height, Euler
buckling could occur without warning if the column's not braced both
ways when you exceed critical load. Also see***.

* If ceiling beam lift is no go, you might end up using dual rows of
stacked cribbing, eg crib a platform beside the trailer up to trailer
height, move palleted mill onto platform, and use pallet jack to
alternately take out layers of cribbing.**

** Say pallet jack has 3" min and 8" max to top of forks; and suppose
24" of cribbing between floor and mill's pallet; and 16" of cribbing
between top of forks and pallet. Raise jack a little, remove 4" of
cribbing, lower jack 5", remove 4" of cribbing on jack, raise jack 5",
etc. Ends with forks under the pallet, not in the pallet.

*** If the wall's well-braced you could put your beam clamp nearer the
wall instead of 8' out, and have a winch line across the shop to hold
the chain fall hook out from the wall. [However, if the clamp were
right at the wall I think resultant forces would be about 90% on the
chain fall and 45% on the winch line, which sounds like a high enough sideways force on the wall to raise the possibility of some exciting
video footage. ... In the grocery store a couple of weeks ago, I
heard one guy say, "How's it going, Bill?", and Bill replies, "Going
great, just great! But it's early enough the whole day could still go sideways."]

If the mills was already on a pallet I might be tempted to tilt the
trailer and slide the mill off the end with a pallet jack and some
ramps. Still wouldn't give me a lift in my shop, but it would get the
mill off the trailer. The distance from the column is dictated by
shelves, position of the mill (or other stuff in the future) on the
trailer, and the parking position options for the trailer. I do have
toe jacks so cribbing it onto a pallet "might" be an option. Haven't
looked yet if there is clearance for them.

There are perlins connecting the central beam and support column to the
front and rear beams and support columns. Of course their are X cables
on one side to prevent extreme building shifting in high wind loads, but
their tension has never visibly changed. Not even with 70 MPH winds.
There is also bracing at a number of locations to prevent beam twist.
Pulling from the bottom of the beam straight down, it doesn't seam that
beam twist would be an issue.

Each column is bolted to a giant steel reinforced concrete cube.
4x4x4ft maybe. Might be bigger. It was big, but it was a while ago.
The cube is part of the foundation, and the slab has fiber reinforcement
and the appropriate steel rebar and steel re mesh. Tilting or shift is
very unlikely. The slab is supposed to be six inches of structural
concrete, but I have drilled it in a couple places, and its possible
it's only 5 to 5.5 in a few places. Except for the deliberate saw cuts
to prevent this 18-19 year old slab has no cracks. I think the biggest
risk is the strength of the beam itself.

I tried using some of the online beam calculators to do basic worst case calculations, but they are really a bit beyond me. Well, beyond my
attention span anyway. The plug and play calculators don't really do it
for me, and I just haven't been able to motivate myself to wade through
the lists of formulas on others.

FYI: This is a commercial steel building rated for 100MPH+ wind loads.
No snow load was provided, because while I have seen snow here 2 or 3
times, it has always melted as it hit the ground. Even hail disappears
very very quickly.

Your shade tree testing approach using a laser tape measure (or a
weighted string) is probably the best approach for me to do some basic
testing. I just happen to have tens of thousands of yards of string
(fishing line) and a 600lb(ish) outboard on a stand almost directly
under the beam already. Only a few feet off the intended chain fall
location. I have to move the outboard anyway.

--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff


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On 8/14/2024 9:58 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:

"Jim Wilkins"  wrote in message news:v9ibrb$fgnr$[email protected]...
...
Perhaps you could suspend a carefully leveled beam track from your existing structure to allow lifting and moving a load off a trailer and onto
pipes or
machinery mice, then set it on the floor with a J-bar.
...
-------------------------
Bad example, you can lift the load and move the trailer, and you have
tongue jacks.

Besides the gantry I have tripod hoists that lift vertically, equivalent
to your stationary suspended hoist. They are cheaper, simpler and
lighter and what I use most, though for assembling the parts of a
milling machine or similar jobs a moving gantry is better.

No, not a bad example. Sure it doesn't fit my exact situation, but its
useful information.


My plan in case I failed to explain it accurately is to lift the load,
roll the trailer forward, and lower the load onto a heavy pallet. I'll probably put the pallet under the trailer so that total suspension time
of the load will be measured in single digits.

Two things...

1. I have looked at prefab gantry cranes and there are many with
adequate vertical clearance... and as you mentioned.. 8 ft width. They
do not have an 8 ft span however. Most are 8' to the center of the
caster pivots. 94-ish inches between the uprights. This makes it
impractical for unloading heavy utility flat bed trailers which are
typically 8' wide or in some cases 8'6 inches wide. Wider ones are
available of course. A gantry has the advantage of a being able to use
a trolley instead of a beam clamp of course.

2. I actually have considered installing a vertical I-Beam to one side
of the parking bay. (There are shelves there so it really would not be
in the way even though it is an open span building.) Then installing a horizontal beam from it to the near column. Braced of course. This
would also allow for use of a trolley instead of a beam clamp. I-beams
tend to be lighter than I would like to use or nearly as much as the
cost of a complete gantry crane, even for excess inventory, locally.

--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff


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On 8/15/2024 6:21 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:

"Jim Wilkins"  wrote in message news:v9jdo0$kv7a$[email protected]...

A tripod of 2" x 10' water pipe is stronger but difficult to set up
because the center of gravity is so high.

Also the pipes alone weigh ~110 Lbs and connecting the 3 top ends on a
ladder is difficult and risky with only two hands, it has to be raised
with its top ends connected, more weight on top to fight. The neighbor
loaned me his 2" pipe tripod but after setting it up once and straining
my back I made my own from lighter 2-3/8" OD x 8' fence tubing, which
has served very well. I think he set it up while standing on a truck bed
or the front of the vehicle whose engine he was swapping.  Although EMT
may be intentionally soft enough to bend its elastic modulus is the same
as any other steel and that's what determines long column buckling resistance.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnson%27s_parabolic_formula

On asphalt or concrete the tripod needs ball joint baseplates which are
tied together to prevent spreading. Connecting the leg ends in a delta pattern creates a tripping hazard, connecting the baseplates to lower
the rope requires ball sockets with enough depth to retain the balls at
the leg angle. For the gantry tripods where the load isn't between the
legs a wye rope pattern is less of a nuisance under foot and tightening
one rope also removes slack from the other two. When possible I guy the tripod top to anchors because lateral pull or any foot slipping can
bring it down.

So far a fence post acorn cap in a beveled hole has been close enough to
a ball joint. The point digs in and holds on dirt when a lighter load
doesn't require a baseplate. The only breakage was a puncture from a
sharp rock in the ground. The EMT ends are cast iron acorn caps too
small to fit over the tube, so I turned their OD down to fit snugly
inside it. The water pipe shear legs have hemi ball ends turned from a dumbbell.

I don't give load capacities to force you to calculate, measure and be responsible for them yourself, as your construction or usage may vary
from mine.

I just don't find much good salvage steel around here, although to be
honest I've pretty much quit looking.

--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff


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On 8/15/2024 3:08 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:

"Bob La Londe"  wrote in message news:v9lhcu$123jg$[email protected]...

On 8/15/2024 6:21 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:

"Jim Wilkins"  wrote in message news:v9jdo0$kv7a$[email protected]...

A tripod ...

I just don't find much good salvage steel around here, although to be
honest I've pretty much quit looking.

Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff

----------------------------

The channels etc for my gantry hoist were salvaged standard shapes, the tripods are new material available from local hardware and big box
stores, at least for the 2000# capacity versions. Fence dealers may have stronger posts with thicker walls. The upgrade chain and fittings came
from a specialty store beside a tractor dealership. The hoists are from Harbor Freight, Northern Tool and a now-closed discount store similar to
HF. I don't usually describe things in detail unless they work well for
me and others can buy or duplicate them.

I looked at Harbor Freight and they sell an "okay" 1 ton gantry crane.
With a maximum lift height of 148 inches and a product width of 128
inches it wouldn't be too bad for a shop crane except... well... its
only rated for 1 ton. They may have sold other options in the past, but
its the only one available today. Much like their machine tools that
have been paired down to just a few of their smallest selections
compared to the past.

I do actually have a gantry crane. Sorta. Its an twin a-frame with a
cross bar made out of what looks like old heavy well casing all welded
up. Its high enough to lift an engine out of the engine bay of a pickup
truck, and just barely wide enough to fit around the fenders of one.
Not much use for this application though. A fellow I know (not a good
human being) loaned it to my dad maybe 50 years ago. My dad told him he
could have it back when the guy paid him the money he owed him. I don't
think my dad ever got his money back because we still have it, and
amazingly that coyote never stole it out from behind the grocery store
where we kept it in an open yard most of those years. Of course all I
ever used it for was pulling and installing engines. Mostly (now that I
think about exclusively) V8s. 318, 360, 351, etc etc... No wheels.
Just steel pads under the four feet. I kinda liked it better than a
cherry picker for pulling an engine. I guess next time I run out to my
folks place I'll have to see if I can drag it up onto a trailer. (Its
freaking heavy.) I might need a gantry crane just to stand this one
back up.

You know... there is another cherry picker out there too... and another
engine stand...

--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff


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On 8/17/2024 6:42 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:

"Jim Wilkins"  wrote in message news:v9njme$1eonm$[email protected]...

There may be other ways to design a self-assembling gantry crane, perhaps temporary or fold-out extra legs that make the end posts free standing
until
the beam is bolted in place. Mine is set up such that I can lift the beam
and move the loaded trolley from outside the leg and beam areas.

---------------------------------
Here are some ideas that may not be too difficult to DIY. They appear to
use common structural shapes pinned or bolted together at flat plate
fittings small enough to make with hobby sized machine tools. https://m.sevenindustry.com/portable-gantry-crane/aluminum-gantry-crane/aluminum-portable-gantry-crane-a.html

For at-home use I would trade the compact folding and rapid setup for
more bolted triangulated bracing to reduce bending stress on the legs
and joints and increase load capacity. I built my tool shed tall enough
for 8' stock and stepladders standing upright. This defines the sizes of
what I build to store in it, like the gantry components. Uncut 8' studs
give a wall 8' 3" high and aluminum Z strips keep water out of the
joints in the siding panels, which are somewhat sheltered by the eaves.

A track made from two channels can be attached to uprights and diagonals
by sandwiching them between the channel webs. For instance a two channel track could be attached atop wood posts with angle iron trimmed to fit between them and bolted to the posts. The diagonal brace could also be
two angles with their ends cut down to fit between the channels and bent
flat against the post, though mine are 3/8"  bar welded into the slotted ends of pipe. The outer post for my temporary track extension is a
braced landscape timber with the track hung on a 1-ton-rated turnbuckle
to level it. I think a gantry track made from channel iron makes sense
if you need manageable weight, compact storage and versatility for
one-time setups more than high capacity for frequent use.
jsw

I have to admit I don't always read your posts from end to end when I
first see them. I skim them, and then come back later and read them
more thoroughly if there was something that caught my attention. My bad really. Often I review them on Narkive from my phone later when I am
winding down for the day. I just saw the comment about c-channel. I
actually have a few pieces I bought as salvage from a buddy to repair an
over stressed hydraulic press. I've since got another hydraulic press
the same size from my dad's shop so I no longer need to fix my old one.
I'll have to walk out back and see how much c-channel I have. Heck, I
have a couple pieces of 1x6 4140 12 feet long too. I bought extra for a
press die job a few years ago. On edge that stuff could probably 8-10
or more tons if it could be kept from twisting. Welding it might not be
a good idea though. I have no practical way to anneal or heat treat
anything that big, and it came in HT hardness for the dies. I'd have
to make a bolt up assembly with it.

I fall into a bad habit of not wanting to use my "good stock" unless I
am getting paid a lot for it. The thing is all that "good stock" was
paid for a long time ago.

I still have 9 out of 10 sheets of 1/4 inch plate I bought a while back
because the price was right too. I saw a guy make a welded 30 ton press
out of that same type of stock a while back.

I guess I should just stop bleating and make something.
--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff


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