On 6/18/2025 9:56 PM, James wrote:
On 19/6/25 02:35, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/18/2025 4:02 AM, James wrote:
I had been finding that I was suffering more from cramps during a
ride and low blood pressure afterwards, despite drinking about as
much water as was manageable.
I then started adding 1/2 a teaspoon of salt (regular NaCl) to my
800ml bidons of water, and have had no problems since.
Winter is now upon us, and perspiration is much less of an issue, so
I have reduced the dose to 1/4 teaspoon per 800ml water.
I thought initially low blood sugar may have been an issue, but now I
believe I was not able to rehydrate adequately on water alone, after
sweating heavily in the subtropics. I may happen to have a low salt >>> diet. I don't eat junk food or takeaway.
I'm sure I've previously mentioned my experience in my (only) double
century, ridden in the peak of summer heat and humidity. I was being
very careful to drink plenty of water, but at something like 140 miles
I felt a weird and terrible thirst, but my stomach felt overfilled
with water.
I guessed it was hyponatremia, so we stopped at a fast food place and
I downed several little salt packs, then put more salt into my water
bottles. That made me quickly recover. Since then I put salt into my
water bottles for any summer ride over about 20 miles.
BTW, I found it works even better to do that with a "salt substitute"
that includes salts of other elements, e.g. magnesium or potassium.
I am no stranger to rides in excess of 200km, however these issues have become more pronounced in recent years. Maybe age is also a factor.
About the cramping: I went through a couple decades where cramping was a problem during or especially after a hard, hot ride.
In the last year or two, the problem has greatly diminished. I don't
know why.
On Wed, 18 Jun 2025 12:35:58 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/18/2025 4:02 AM, James wrote:
I had been finding that I was suffering more from cramps during a ride
and low blood pressure afterwards, despite drinking about as much water
as was manageable.
I then started adding 1/2 a teaspoon of salt (regular NaCl) to my 800ml
bidons of water, and have had no problems since.
Winter is now upon us, and perspiration is much less of an issue, so I
have reduced the dose to 1/4 teaspoon per 800ml water.
I thought initially low blood sugar may have been an issue, but now I
believe I was not able to rehydrate adequately on water alone, after
sweating heavily in the subtropics.? I may happen to have a low salt
diet.? I don't eat junk food or takeaway.
I'm sure I've previously mentioned my experience in my (only) double >century, ridden in the peak of summer heat and humidity. I was being
very careful to drink plenty of water, but at something like 140 miles I >felt a weird and terrible thirst, but my stomach felt overfilled with >water.
I guessed it was hyponatremia, so we stopped at a fast food place and I >downed several little salt packs, then put more salt into my water
bottles. That made me quickly recover. Since then I put salt into my
water bottles for any summer ride over about 20 miles.
BTW, I found it works even better to do that with a "salt substitute"
that includes salts of other elements, e.g. magnesium or potassium.
Krygowski reports on his undocumented 200 mile ride... again..
The reason? Anything that can cause pain. In the specific case
of cramp, an electrolyte imbalance or tissue hypoxia. Rubbing the
cramped region can make the pain more bearable, but it won't make the
cramp go away. Extending the limb ( better circulation)and breathing deeply(more oxygen) is usually more effective.
On 19/6/25 02:35, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/18/2025 4:02 AM, James wrote:
I had been finding that I was suffering more from cramps during a ride
and low blood pressure afterwards, despite drinking about as much
water as was manageable.
I then started adding 1/2 a teaspoon of salt (regular NaCl) to my
800ml bidons of water, and have had no problems since.
Winter is now upon us, and perspiration is much less of an issue, so I
have reduced the dose to 1/4 teaspoon per 800ml water.
I thought initially low blood sugar may have been an issue, but now I
believe I was not able to rehydrate adequately on water alone, after
sweating heavily in the subtropics. I may happen to have a low salt
diet. I don't eat junk food or takeaway.
I'm sure I've previously mentioned my experience in my (only) double century, ridden in the peak of summer heat and humidity. I was being
very careful to drink plenty of water, but at something like 140 miles I felt a weird and terrible thirst, but my stomach felt overfilled with water.
I guessed it was hyponatremia, so we stopped at a fast food place and I downed several little salt packs, then put more salt into my water
bottles. That made me quickly recover. Since then I put salt into my
water bottles for any summer ride over about 20 miles.
BTW, I found it works even better to do that with a "salt substitute"
that includes salts of other elements, e.g. magnesium or potassium.
I am no stranger to rides in excess of 200km, however these issues have become more pronounced in recent years. Maybe age is also a factor.
On Mon, 23 Jun 2025 11:41:15 -0400, Zen Cycle <[email protected]>
wrote:
On 6/22/2025 4:25 PM, Shadow wrote:
On Sun, 22 Jun 2025 15:58:30 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/22/2025 12:10 PM, Shadow wrote:
On Sun, 22 Jun 2025 10:15:01 -0500, AMuzi <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>There's still the undeniable (IME) fact that swallowing a bit of mustard >>> can stop most cramps almost immediately. That must have nothing to do
On 6/22/2025 10:06 AM, Shadow wrote:
On Fri, 20 Jun 2025 19:54:02 -0500, AMuzi <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>
On 6/20/2025 6:32 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/20/2025 5:17 PM, AMuzi wrote:
When I was new to cycling, the old guys said yellow
mustard for cramps. I have no personal experience.
It works for me, well enough that I used to carry fast food
restaurant packets of mustard in my handlebar bag. I may
still have some in there, but it's been a long time since I
needed them.
When I say "works for me," I should append "for a while"
unless the cramp happens after the ride is done.
I remember one rider who swore that yanking one's nasal
septum downward sharply would relieve a leg cramp -
something about related nerve system points, acupuncture
charts and all that. Again I don't know.
I've also heard, and used, a very strong pinch on my upper lip. >>>>>>>>
It all begins to sound like magic.
I think acupuncture is real, not magic, but I wouldn't know
where to begin and have zero experience.
Acupuncture relieves symptoms. It does not cure anything. Like >>>>>> rubbing a twisted ankle or blowing on a burn. The "touch" stimulus >>>>>> overrides the pain. So it does have its uses but remember that rubbing >>>>>> a twisted ankle might make it worse and blowing on a burn could infect >>>>>> it.
[]'s
Yes, I agree. You make a good point in that acupuncture, in
theory, counters an unwanted nerve signal with a seemingly
unrelated nerve signal to cancel or override the first.
Not unrelated. Usually very close. You don't blow on your
thumb if you burned your finger. Or massage your wrist if you sprained >>>> your ankle.
That is not at all addressing the reason for the initial
unwanted nerve signal.
The reason? Anything that can cause pain. In the specific case
of cramp, an electrolyte imbalance or tissue hypoxia. Rubbing the
cramped region can make the pain more bearable, but it won't make the >>>> cramp go away. Extending the limb ( better circulation)and breathing >>>> deeply(more oxygen) is usually more effective.
with circulation or oxygen.
If you say so....
Any double blind studies to verify that?
[]'s
Lots...
That's good:
https://www.sciencebasedhealth.com/ContentPage.aspx?WebpageId=840&srsltid=AfmBOopa0bSrVFTRwls-sq3AV7QBmMOszEk48w747ePG4qYLlc_wbvw8
Heavy Google datamining and scripting
//
Finally, would pickle juice work for other types of cramps, such as
nighttime cramping? While this hasn?t been studied, it?s likely that
trials in other groups besides those with cirrhosis will be conducted
in the future. For healthy people with exercise-related cramping or
nighttime cramping, a tbsp of pickle juice might be worth a try.
//
https://journals.lww.com/ajg/abstract/2022/06000/pickle_juice_intervention_for_cirrhotic_cramps.19.aspx
Cloudflare datamining. Won't load.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2742453/
//
Ingesting small volumes of pickle juice or
carbohydrate-electrolyte drink produced no changes in plasma
electrolyte concentrations, osmolality, or volume up to 60 minutes postingestion in rested, euhydrated men without exercise-associated
muscle cramps.
Plasma electrolyte concentrations did not change within 1 minute
of pickle juice or carbohydrate-electrolyte drink ingestion.
Ingesting small volumes of pickle juice or
carbohydrate-electrolyte drink may not result in plasma
hyperosmolality or hypervolemia and may not alleviate
exercise-associated muscle cramps by restoring electrolytes or
expanding plasma and/or interstitial volume.
//
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3975776/
//
Ingesting 2 mL/kg body mass of pickle juice (PJ) or hypertonic
saline with water pre-exercise did not affect performance.
Ingesting PJ or hypertonic saline did not alter final core
temperature or sweat volume.
Ingesting PJ or hypertonic saline with modest volumes of water did
not cause plasma volume expansion.
Ingesting small volumes of PJ with water before exercise is
unlikely to affect athletic performance or select thermoregulatory
variables, such as rectal temperature or sweat loss.
//
Ingesting sodium diminishes or even abolished cramps, when
they are hyponatremic. It's an established fact. Take it BEFORE losing
all that sodium.
What does this have to do with Mustard?
On 7/18/2025 1:19 PM, sms wrote:
On 6/18/2025 1:02 AM, James wrote:
I had been finding that I was suffering more from crampsIn the U.S., most cyclists are now drinking PLEZi to
during a ride and low blood pressure afterwards, despite
drinking about as much water as was manageable.
I then started adding 1/2 a teaspoon of salt (regular
NaCl) to my 800ml bidons of water, and have had no
problems since.
Winter is now upon us, and perspiration is much less of an
issue, so I have reduced the dose to 1/4 teaspoon per
800ml water.
I thought initially low blood sugar may have been an
issue, but now I believe I was not able to rehydrate
adequately on water alone, after sweating heavily in the
subtropics. I may happen to have a low salt diet. I
don't eat junk food or takeaway.
replenish electrolytes (the non-carbonated version), see <https://plezi.com/products/hydration-orange-smash> .
PLEZi is a company started by former First Lady Michelle
Obama. Today, in the SF Bay Area, Stephen Curry is appearing
at a Safeway supermarket and a Costco to promote PLEZi.
See https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/stephen-curry-just- launched-no-185553589.html .
I use Nuun tablets, see <https://nuunlife.com/products/nuun-
sport>.
Probably 'some' not 'most'.
https://www.mordorintelligence.com/industry-reports/north-america-sports-drink-market
https://www.cognitivemarketresearch.com/sports-drink-market-report
On 6/18/2025 4:02 AM, James wrote:
I had been finding that I was suffering more from cramps during a ride
and low blood pressure afterwards, despite drinking about as much water
as was manageable.
I then started adding 1/2 a teaspoon of salt (regular NaCl) to my 800ml bidons of water, and have had no problems since.
Winter is now upon us, and perspiration is much less of an issue, so I
have reduced the dose to 1/4 teaspoon per 800ml water.
I thought initially low blood sugar may have been an issue, but now I believe I was not able to rehydrate adequately on water alone, after sweating heavily in the subtropics. I may happen to have a low salt diet. I don't eat junk food or takeaway.
FYI - Ironically, the latest issue of FastTalk has a segment on sodium ingestion in the context of physical activity.
https://www.fasttalklabs.com/fast-talk/too-little-protein-too-much-sodium/
(you can listen to it from that webpage)
No real answers, but a lot of information., such as
"there was some studies that came out in 2016 that showed a U shaped relationship of salt and heart disease and all cause mortality, meaning people on a very high salt diet had higher rates of heart disease, but
people on a lower salt diet also had high rates of heart disease. And
they saw the low point in that curve was up around three, 4000
milligrams of sodium, which is well above the RDA. So there was this
push in a lot of the nutrition world of, oh, we?ve got it wrong. We need
to eat more sodium. There was a serious issue with those studies they
were using, I believe, the NHANES data. So there?s a big collection of
data, and looking at what people ate and looking at development of
chronic disease over, I think it was a 20 year period, so over a long
period, they didn?t control for people that had already been diagnosed
with heart disease. And the issue is. Is, what?s the first thing your
doctor tells you to do when you have heart disease? Yeah, lower it. Stop eating salt. So it wasn?t the low sodium diet that was causing heart
disease. It was the heart disease was causing the low sodium diet. And somebody then went and repeated the study and controlled for that, and
it was a straight line relationship. The less salty ate, the lower your
risk of heart disease."
and
"I have a study that was just sent to me. I?m just going to read the
title to you. It?s "dietary Salt promotes neurovascular and cognitive dysfunction through a gut initiated TH17 response". We know that salt elevates TH17. Th17 is a very inflammatory T cell and chronically
elevated TH17 precedes all autoimmune diseases. It?s been associated
with cancer. It?s been associated with heart disease. This study is now associating it showing basically the mechanism about. How it can promote cognitive decline, and salt contributes to this. Another really
important thing to know about salt is it?s been shown that it
accelerates the breakdown of telomere length. And telomere length, a lot
of people in the science community are now saying that is the primary
factor in aging. So salt will speed up aging, essentially. If this is
true, another impact, and I?m just going to rattle off a few. I could
give you 2030, different ways salt impacts our health, but we can only excrete so much sodium through our kidneys, so when you consume more
than you can excrete, your body has to do something with it. And what
they have discovered, and there?s a fairly recent study, is what they
call the third compartment in our epithelial cells. So epithelial cells
are the cells that line different parts of our body. So all your skin
cells are epithelial cells, but in your arteries and blood vessels, the
cells that line those are also epithelial cells. And what they?ve
discovered is these epithelial cells will store the sodium when you have
too much in your system, your body can?t excrete it that has multiple
effects inside your vascular system."
On 6/23/2025 10:08 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 23 Jun 2025 14:05:23 -0400, Zen Cycle <[email protected]> wrote:
A large component of mustard is vinegar - acetic acid - the same major
component in pickle brine. There's an nervous system response if pickle
juice is taken at the onset of cramps. As the quoted studies show
there's no benefit in taking before cramping, and taking after the onset >> also has little effect. It needs to be ingested when the cramps first
come on.
I'm not sure that's possible or practical. For me, there's no prior warning or any indication of an approaching onset of cramps. One
minute, I'm fine. The next minute, the leg hurts. At best, I might
get a few seconds warning, which is not enough time to make a dash for
the mustard or vinegar.
Correct, there really isn't a good way to set up the test condition.
"Leg Cramps" <https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/14170-leg-cramps> "Unfortunately, leg cramps happen very suddenly. There aren't any
warning signs."
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