I had been finding that I was suffering more from cramps during a ride
and low blood pressure afterwards, despite drinking about as much water
as was manageable.
I then started adding 1/2 a teaspoon of salt (regular NaCl) to my 800ml bidons of water, and have had no problems since.
Winter is now upon us, and perspiration is much less of an issue, so I
have reduced the dose to 1/4 teaspoon per 800ml water.
I thought initially low blood sugar may have been an issue, but now I
believe I was not able to rehydrate adequately on water alone, after
sweating heavily in the subtropics. I may happen to have a low salt
diet. I don't eat junk food or takeaway.
I then started adding 1/2 a teaspoon of salt (regular NaCl) to my 800ml >bidons of water, and have had no problems since.
On 6/18/2025 4:02 AM, James wrote:
I had been finding that I was suffering more from cramps during a ride
and low blood pressure afterwards, despite drinking about as much water
as was manageable.
I then started adding 1/2 a teaspoon of salt (regular NaCl) to my 800ml
bidons of water, and have had no problems since.
Winter is now upon us, and perspiration is much less of an issue, so I
have reduced the dose to 1/4 teaspoon per 800ml water.
I thought initially low blood sugar may have been an issue, but now I
believe I was not able to rehydrate adequately on water alone, after
sweating heavily in the subtropics.� I may happen to have a low salt
diet.� I don't eat junk food or takeaway.
I'm sure I've previously mentioned my experience in my (only) double
century, ridden in the peak of summer heat and humidity. I was being
very careful to drink plenty of water, but at something like 140 miles I
felt a weird and terrible thirst, but my stomach felt overfilled with
water.
I guessed it was hyponatremia, so we stopped at a fast food place and I >downed several little salt packs, then put more salt into my water
bottles. That made me quickly recover. Since then I put salt into my
water bottles for any summer ride over about 20 miles.
BTW, I found it works even better to do that with a "salt substitute"
that includes salts of other elements, e.g. magnesium or potassium.
On 19/6/25 01:23, Zen Cycle wrote:
On 6/18/2025 4:02 AM, James wrote:
I had been finding that I was suffering more from cramps during a ride
and low blood pressure afterwards, despite drinking about as much
water as was manageable.
I then started adding 1/2 a teaspoon of salt (regular NaCl) to my
800ml bidons of water, and have had no problems since.
Winter is now upon us, and perspiration is much less of an issue, so I
have reduced the dose to 1/4 teaspoon per 800ml water.
I thought initially low blood sugar may have been an issue, but now I
believe I was not able to rehydrate adequately on water alone, after
sweating heavily in the subtropics.� I may happen to have a low salt
diet.� I don't eat junk food or takeaway.
This is a well-known issue, and the reason there is a billion-dollar*
hydration/supplement industry. Yes, electrolyte imbalance can lead to a
vast number of physiological problems, cramping being one of the more
common.
You did it right, experimenting on a small scale to see what works best.
I make a DIY "gatorade".
1/4 cup honey (~120 ml)
1/4 cup lemon juice concentrate
1/4 teaspoon electrolyte powder
2 qts water (~ 2L)
The electrolyte powder I'm currently using is 1000mg Sodium, 600mg
Potassium, and 60mg Magnesium per 1/4 teaspoon.
The result is the old-school gatorade flavor which is just slightly
sweet and just slightly salty. It works great for me.
It's important to remember everyone has differnet physiology, what works
great for me may not work great for you. You're using 1/2 tsp per 800 ml
- that would be way too much for me.
*I don't know that it's a billion dollar industry, I do know that it's a
big business.
My wife bought a powdered electrolyte drink that is flavored and
artificially sweetened. It has more other salts than sodium, and
doesn't seem to help much.
I tried sweetening and flavoring my concoction with citrus juice and
honey, but didn't like the taste. 1/2 a teaspoon of salt given a bit
more than 1000mg. I read that athletes can perspire between 200mg and
2000mg per hour. I chose a middle value to consume 800ml per hour.
On 19/6/25 02:35, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/18/2025 4:02 AM, James wrote:
I had been finding that I was suffering more from cramps during a
ride and low blood pressure afterwards, despite drinking about as
much water as was manageable.
I then started adding 1/2 a teaspoon of salt (regular NaCl) to my
800ml bidons of water, and have had no problems since.
Winter is now upon us, and perspiration is much less of an issue, so
I have reduced the dose to 1/4 teaspoon per 800ml water.
I thought initially low blood sugar may have been an issue, but now I
believe I was not able to rehydrate adequately on water alone, after
sweating heavily in the subtropics. I may happen to have a low salt
diet. I don't eat junk food or takeaway.
I'm sure I've previously mentioned my experience in my (only) double
century, ridden in the peak of summer heat and humidity. I was being
very careful to drink plenty of water, but at something like 140 miles
I felt a weird and terrible thirst, but my stomach felt overfilled
with water.
I guessed it was hyponatremia, so we stopped at a fast food place and
I downed several little salt packs, then put more salt into my water
bottles. That made me quickly recover. Since then I put salt into my
water bottles for any summer ride over about 20 miles.
BTW, I found it works even better to do that with a "salt substitute"
that includes salts of other elements, e.g. magnesium or potassium.
I am no stranger to rides in excess of 200km, however these issues have become more pronounced in recent years. Maybe age is also a factor.
On 6/18/2025 9:56 PM, James wrote:
On 19/6/25 02:35, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/18/2025 4:02 AM, James wrote:
I had been finding that I was suffering more from cramps during a
ride and low blood pressure afterwards, despite drinking about as
much water as was manageable.
I then started adding 1/2 a teaspoon of salt (regular NaCl) to my
800ml bidons of water, and have had no problems since.
Winter is now upon us, and perspiration is much less of an issue, so
I have reduced the dose to 1/4 teaspoon per 800ml water.
I thought initially low blood sugar may have been an issue, but now I
believe I was not able to rehydrate adequately on water alone, after
sweating heavily in the subtropics. I may happen to have a low salt
diet. I don't eat junk food or takeaway.
I'm sure I've previously mentioned my experience in my (only) double
century, ridden in the peak of summer heat and humidity. I was being
very careful to drink plenty of water, but at something like 140 miles
I felt a weird and terrible thirst, but my stomach felt overfilled
with water.
I guessed it was hyponatremia, so we stopped at a fast food place and
I downed several little salt packs, then put more salt into my water
bottles. That made me quickly recover. Since then I put salt into my
water bottles for any summer ride over about 20 miles.
BTW, I found it works even better to do that with a "salt substitute"
that includes salts of other elements, e.g. magnesium or potassium.
I am no stranger to rides in excess of 200km, however these issues have
become more pronounced in recent years. Maybe age is also a factor.
Does it coincide (at least somewhat) with your low salt diet?
On 6/18/2025 4:02 AM, James wrote:
I had been finding that I was suffering more from cramps during a ride
and low blood pressure afterwards, despite drinking about as much water
as was manageable.
I then started adding 1/2 a teaspoon of salt (regular NaCl) to my 800ml
bidons of water, and have had no problems since.
Winter is now upon us, and perspiration is much less of an issue, so I
have reduced the dose to 1/4 teaspoon per 800ml water.
I thought initially low blood sugar may have been an issue, but now I
believe I was not able to rehydrate adequately on water alone, after
sweating heavily in the subtropics.� I may happen to have a low salt
diet.� I don't eat junk food or takeaway.
This is a well-known issue, and the reason there is a billion-dollar* >hydration/supplement industry. Yes, electrolyte imbalance can lead to a
vast number of physiological problems, cramping being one of the more
common.
You did it right, experimenting on a small scale to see what works best.
I make a DIY "gatorade".
1/4 cup honey (~120 ml)
1/4 cup lemon juice concentrate
1/4 teaspoon electrolyte powder
2 qts water (~ 2L)
The electrolyte powder I'm currently using is 1000mg Sodium, 600mg
Potassium, and 60mg Magnesium per 1/4 teaspoon.
The result is the old-school gatorade flavor which is just slightly
sweet and just slightly salty. It works great for me.
It's important to remember everyone has differnet physiology, what works >great for me may not work great for you. You're using 1/2 tsp per 800 ml
- that would be way too much for me.
*I don't know that it's a billion dollar industry, I do know that it's a
big business.
On 19/6/25 17:59, Catrike Ryder wrote:
A banana a day keeps the legs cramps away.
Potasium, and proper hydration works for me.
I grow bananas and usually eat some during a ride, but sweat
is primarily water and sodium chloride.
Wikipedia has this to say.
"Although the mineral content varies, some measured
concentrations are: sodium (0.9 gram/litre), potassium (0.2
g/L), calcium (0.015 g/L), and magnesium (0.0013 g/L).[25]"
Now, 0.9 grams of sodium / litre is equivalent to 720 mg /
800 ml. My addition of 1150 mg of sodium in 1/2 a teaspoon
of table salt to 800 ml of water, is a bit above average.
I often weigh myself before and after a ride. In summer I
often don't need to stop for a leak over a 4 hour ride. I
know how much fluid I have taken on, which might be 2.4
litres plus 200 ml of coffee. I often finish 2 kg lighter,
so I know I have lost about 4.5 kg or litres of sweat in total.
On 19/6/25 17:59, Catrike Ryder wrote:
A banana a day keeps the legs cramps away.
Potasium, and proper hydration works for me.
I grow bananas and usually eat some during a ride, but sweat is
primarily water and sodium chloride.
Wikipedia has this to say.
"Although the mineral content varies, some measured concentrations are: >sodium (0.9 gram/litre), potassium (0.2 g/L), calcium (0.015 g/L), and >magnesium (0.0013 g/L).[25]"
Now, 0.9 grams of sodium / litre is equivalent to 720 mg / 800 ml. My >addition of 1150 mg of sodium in 1/2 a teaspoon of table salt to 800 ml
of water, is a bit above average.
I often weigh myself before and after a ride. In summer I often don't
need to stop for a leak over a 4 hour ride. I know how much fluid I
have taken on, which might be 2.4 litres plus 200 ml of coffee. I often >finish 2 kg lighter, so I know I have lost about 4.5 kg or litres of
sweat in total.
On 19/6/25 21:11, Roger Merriman wrote:
zen cycle <[email protected]> wrote:
Does it coincide (at least somewhat) with your low salt diet?
Was the low salt diet a change? Wasn’t sure if it was or not reading James >> post, but absolutely could be a factor.
I don't think my diet has changed significantly. The symptoms have
gradually become more noticeable.
Maybe it's climate change! <joking>
I personally only get problems if minor if it’s hot (for me which means
25+) I’m off to Wales which should be a a fair bit cooler topping out at >> 25/26 rather than 33 ish for London plus my folks place is built into the
valley side one can step on to the roof, and is largely stone built so
thick stone walls that insulated the house from temperature changes and has >> temperature inertia due the mass vs brick etc.
Sounds delightful. It is not uncommon for me to be riding in 40 C temperatures with significant humidity, in the summer wet season.
Now, in winter, it is much cooler and dry, so perspiration is not a problem.
On 19/6/25 20:10, zen cycle wrote:
On 6/18/2025 9:56 PM, James wrote:
On 19/6/25 02:35, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/18/2025 4:02 AM, James wrote:
I had been finding that I was suffering more from cramps during a
ride and low blood pressure afterwards, despite drinking about as
much water as was manageable.
I then started adding 1/2 a teaspoon of salt (regular NaCl) to my
800ml bidons of water, and have had no problems since.
Winter is now upon us, and perspiration is much less of an issue,
so I have reduced the dose to 1/4 teaspoon per 800ml water.
I thought initially low blood sugar may have been an issue, but now
I believe I was not able to rehydrate adequately on water alone,
after sweating heavily in the subtropics. I may happen to have a
low salt diet. I don't eat junk food or takeaway.
I'm sure I've previously mentioned my experience in my (only) double
century, ridden in the peak of summer heat and humidity. I was being
very careful to drink plenty of water, but at something like 140
miles I felt a weird and terrible thirst, but my stomach felt
overfilled with water.
I guessed it was hyponatremia, so we stopped at a fast food place
and I downed several little salt packs, then put more salt into my
water bottles. That made me quickly recover. Since then I put salt
into my water bottles for any summer ride over about 20 miles.
BTW, I found it works even better to do that with a "salt
substitute" that includes salts of other elements, e.g. magnesium or
potassium.
I am no stranger to rides in excess of 200km, however these issues
have become more pronounced in recent years. Maybe age is also a
factor.
Does it coincide (at least somewhat) with your low salt diet?
Well, I didn't think my diet had changed all that much, but perhaps the
foot long subway roll that was my go-to lunch when I worked full time
was more salty than I thought! Lunches are the only change to my daily routine.
I also moved to the subtropics over 10 years ago when I stopped full
time work, but the symptoms seem to have got slowly worse over that
time. When I first moved, I had no problem, that I can recall.
On 6/19/2025 8:24 PM, James wrote:
On 19/6/25 20:10, zen cycle wrote:
On 6/18/2025 9:56 PM, James wrote:
On 19/6/25 02:35, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/18/2025 4:02 AM, James wrote:
I had been finding that I was suffering more from cramps during a
ride and low blood pressure afterwards, despite drinking about as
much water as was manageable.
I then started adding 1/2 a teaspoon of salt (regular NaCl) to my
800ml bidons of water, and have had no problems since.
Winter is now upon us, and perspiration is much less of an issue,
so I have reduced the dose to 1/4 teaspoon per 800ml water.
I thought initially low blood sugar may have been an issue, but
now I believe I was not able to rehydrate adequately on water
alone, after sweating heavily in the subtropics. I may happen to >>>>>> have a low salt diet. I don't eat junk food or takeaway.
I'm sure I've previously mentioned my experience in my (only)
double century, ridden in the peak of summer heat and humidity. I
was being very careful to drink plenty of water, but at something
like 140 miles I felt a weird and terrible thirst, but my stomach
felt overfilled with water.
I guessed it was hyponatremia, so we stopped at a fast food place
and I downed several little salt packs, then put more salt into my
water bottles. That made me quickly recover. Since then I put salt
into my water bottles for any summer ride over about 20 miles.
BTW, I found it works even better to do that with a "salt
substitute" that includes salts of other elements, e.g. magnesium
or potassium.
I am no stranger to rides in excess of 200km, however these issues
have become more pronounced in recent years. Maybe age is also a
factor.
Does it coincide (at least somewhat) with your low salt diet?
Well, I didn't think my diet had changed all that much, but perhaps
the foot long subway roll that was my go-to lunch when I worked full
time was more salty than I thought! Lunches are the only change to my
daily routine.
Yeah, unless it's a veggie sub with only fresh veggies, on plain white
or wheat bread and no condiments, it's loaded with salt (even their
plain sub rolls have an appreciable amount of salt). Still that might
not be enough to explain it depending on other things in your diet.
I also moved to the subtropics over 10 years ago when I stopped full
time work, but the symptoms seem to have got slowly worse over that
time. When I first moved, I had no problem, that I can recall.
I suspect as you have that age might be a significant factor, but hey,
I'm not a doctor.
On 6/19/2025 8:24 PM, James wrote:
I also moved to the subtropics over 10 years ago when I stopped full
time work, but the symptoms seem to have got slowly worse over that
time.� When I first moved, I had no problem, that I can recall.
I suspect as you have that age might be a significant factor, but hey,
I'm not a doctor.
On 6/19/2025 8:24 PM, James wrote:
On 19/6/25 20:10, zen cycle wrote:
On 6/18/2025 9:56 PM, James wrote:
On 19/6/25 02:35, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/18/2025 4:02 AM, James wrote:
I had been finding that I was suffering more from
cramps during a ride and low blood pressure
afterwards, despite drinking about as much water as
was manageable.
I then started adding 1/2 a teaspoon of salt (regular
NaCl) to my 800ml bidons of water, and have had no
problems since.
Winter is now upon us, and perspiration is much less
of an issue, so I have reduced the dose to 1/4
teaspoon per 800ml water.
I thought initially low blood sugar may have been an
issue, but now I believe I was not able to rehydrate
adequately on water alone, after sweating heavily in
the subtropics. I may happen to have a low salt
diet. I don't eat junk food or takeaway.
I'm sure I've previously mentioned my experience in my
(only) double century, ridden in the peak of summer
heat and humidity. I was being very careful to drink
plenty of water, but at something like 140 miles I felt
a weird and terrible thirst, but my stomach felt
overfilled with water.
I guessed it was hyponatremia, so we stopped at a fast
food place and I downed several little salt packs, then
put more salt into my water bottles. That made me
quickly recover. Since then I put salt into my water
bottles for any summer ride over about 20 miles.
BTW, I found it works even better to do that with a
"salt substitute" that includes salts of other
elements, e.g. magnesium or potassium.
I am no stranger to rides in excess of 200km, however
these issues have become more pronounced in recent
years. Maybe age is also a factor.
Does it coincide (at least somewhat) with your low salt
diet?
Well, I didn't think my diet had changed all that much,
but perhaps the foot long subway roll that was my go-to
lunch when I worked full time was more salty than I
thought! Lunches are the only change to my daily routine.
Yeah, unless it's a veggie sub with only fresh veggies, on
plain white or wheat bread and no condiments, it's loaded
with salt (even their plain sub rolls have an appreciable
amount of salt). Still that might not be enough to explain
it depending on other things in your diet.
I also moved to the subtropics over 10 years ago when I
stopped full time work, but the symptoms seem to have got
slowly worse over that time. When I first moved, I had no
problem, that I can recall.
I suspect as you have that age might be a significant
factor, but hey, I'm not a doctor.
On 6/20/2025 8:36 AM, Shadow wrote:
PS Cramp is a lack of sodium, not potassium. Feeling light
headed and weak can be a lack of sodium, potassium or water. Usually
water. But best to take all three. Your kidneys will sort out what was
missing.
About cramps: I'm not a doctor (although one of my siblings is). But a
few years ago when I was suffering the most from cramps, I did a ton of reading trying to solve the problem. What I _thought_ I learned was that cramps are very poorly understood. Whatever triggers them, it's not as
simple as "not enough sodium."
As an example: I frequently got near-instant relief by downing a
spoonful of mustard. Cramps would stop within seconds, far less time
than sodium or any other substance could have been delivered to the
cramping muscle. Many seem to get the same relief from pickle juice.
On 6/20/2025 8:36 AM, Shadow wrote:
PS Cramp is a lack of sodium, not potassium. Feeling
light
headed and weak can be a lack of sodium, potassium or
water. Usually
water. But best to take all three. Your kidneys will sort
out what was
missing.
About cramps: I'm not a doctor (although one of my siblings
is). But a few years ago when I was suffering the most from
cramps, I did a ton of reading trying to solve the problem.
What I _thought_ I learned was that cramps are very poorly
understood. Whatever triggers them, it's not as simple as
"not enough sodium."
As an example: I frequently got near-instant relief by
downing a spoonful of mustard. Cramps would stop within
seconds, far less time than sodium or any other substance
could have been delivered to the cramping muscle. Many seem
to get the same relief from pickle juice.
.................
And on sodium: Everyone knows we consume too much of it. But
then, there's this:
<https://www.tctmd.com/news/fresh-foray-salt-wars-life- expectancy-higher-greater-sodium-intake>
More sodium, longer life. Hmm.
On 6/20/2025 8:36 AM, Shadow wrote:
PS Cramp is a lack of sodium, not potassium. Feeling light
headed and weak can be a lack of sodium, potassium or water. Usually
water. But best to take all three. Your kidneys will sort out what was
missing.
About cramps: I'm not a doctor (although one of my siblings is). But a
few years ago when I was suffering the most from cramps, I did a ton of >reading trying to solve the problem. What I _thought_ I learned was that >cramps are very poorly understood. Whatever triggers them, it's not as
simple as "not enough sodium."
As an example: I frequently got near-instant relief by downing a
spoonful of mustard. Cramps would stop within seconds, far less time
than sodium or any other substance could have been delivered to the
cramping muscle. Many seem to get the same relief from pickle juice.
And on sodium: Everyone knows we consume too much of it. But then,
there's this:
<https://www.tctmd.com/news/fresh-foray-salt-wars-life-expectancy-higher-greater-sodium-intake>
More sodium, longer life. Hmm.
On Fri, 20 Jun 2025 16:57:02 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/20/2025 8:36 AM, Shadow wrote:
PS Cramp is a lack of sodium, not potassium. Feeling light
headed and weak can be a lack of sodium, potassium or water. Usually
water. But best to take all three. Your kidneys will sort out what was
missing.
About cramps: I'm not a doctor (although one of my siblings is). But a
few years ago when I was suffering the most from cramps, I did a ton of
reading trying to solve the problem. What I _thought_ I learned was that
cramps are very poorly understood. Whatever triggers them, it's not as
simple as "not enough sodium."
No, but in the summer the sugar cane cutters came into the ER
writhing in pain. Can you imagine cramps in your whole body?
15 minutes of fast saline (salt + water) EV and the cramps
subsided.
As an example: I frequently got near-instant relief by downing a
spoonful of mustard. Cramps would stop within seconds, far less time
than sodium or any other substance could have been delivered to the
cramping muscle. Many seem to get the same relief from pickle juice.
Well. Best thing to do when you have cramp is EXTEND your leg
or arm or whatever. NEVER contract it. People tend to do the
opposite, thinking "relaxing" the muscle will stop the cramp.
.................
And on sodium: Everyone knows we consume too much of it. But then,
there's this:
<https://www.tctmd.com/news/fresh-foray-salt-wars-life-expectancy-higher-greater-sodium-intake>
More sodium, longer life. Hmm.
About that. Many, many years ago the British Government
decided to limit the amount of salt in tinned goods. In a cold country
people tend to rely more on tinned food, specially the elderly.There
was a great increase in the amount of small strokes(the sort caused by
a drop in blood pressure).
So they advised that tinned goods have to have salt in them.
I learned that at med school. Quoting from memory from over 50
years ago.Sorry, no links. Look it up.... so much #FAKE_NEWS now it
might be impossible to find.
<https://www.actiononsalt.org.uk/reformulation/uk-salt-reduction-timeline/>
Does not go back far enough ..... and suggests the opposite.
[]'s
On 6/20/2025 4:48 PM, Shadow wrote:
On Fri, 20 Jun 2025 16:57:02 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/20/2025 8:36 AM, Shadow wrote:
PS Cramp is a lack of sodium, not potassium. Feeling light
headed and weak can be a lack of sodium, potassium or water. Usually
water. But best to take all three. Your kidneys will sort out what was >>>> missing.
About cramps: I'm not a doctor (although one of my siblings is). But a
few years ago when I was suffering the most from cramps, I did a ton of
reading trying to solve the problem. What I _thought_ I learned was that >>> cramps are very poorly understood. Whatever triggers them, it's not as
simple as "not enough sodium."
No, but in the summer the sugar cane cutters came into the ER
writhing in pain. Can you imagine cramps in your whole body?
15 minutes of fast saline (salt + water) EV and the cramps
subsided.
As an example: I frequently got near-instant relief by downing a
spoonful of mustard. Cramps would stop within seconds, far less time
than sodium or any other substance could have been delivered to the
cramping muscle. Many seem to get the same relief from pickle juice.
Well. Best thing to do when you have cramp is EXTEND your leg
or arm or whatever. NEVER contract it. People tend to do the
opposite, thinking "relaxing" the muscle will stop the cramp.
.................
And on sodium: Everyone knows we consume too much of it. But then,
there's this:
<https://www.tctmd.com/news/fresh-foray-salt-wars-life-expectancy-higher-greater-sodium-intake>
More sodium, longer life. Hmm.
About that. Many, many years ago the British Government
decided to limit the amount of salt in tinned goods. In a cold country
people tend to rely more on tinned food, specially the elderly.There
was a great increase in the amount of small strokes(the sort caused by
a drop in blood pressure).
So they advised that tinned goods have to have salt in them.
I learned that at med school. Quoting from memory from over 50
years ago.Sorry, no links. Look it up.... so much #FAKE_NEWS now it
might be impossible to find.
<https://www.actiononsalt.org.uk/reformulation/uk-salt-reduction-timeline/> >>
Does not go back far enough ..... and suggests the opposite.
[]'s
Well of course it's opposite!
In my lifetime, the US government has decreed 'coffee is
bad' and then 'coffee is good' in cycles. Same with other
food aspects such as marbled fatty meat. They once said
mostly carbohydrates made the best diet:
https://tinyurl.com/2v6mh48d
and so on. Forever.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/travel-back-time-these-old-usda-dietary-guidelines-180957741/
On 6/20/2025 6:00 PM, AMuzi wrote:
In my lifetime, the US government has decreed 'coffee is bad' and then
'coffee is good' in cycles. Same with other food aspects such as marbled
fatty meat. They once said mostly carbohydrates made the best diet:
https://tinyurl.com/2v6mh48d
and so on. Forever.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/travel-back-time-these-old-
usda-dietary-guidelines-180957741/
I'm reading a book debunking "Paleo" logic regarding diet, exercise,
sex, etc. etc.
One of the author's main points may be that people differ much more than
we realize, so many recommendations (scientific or not) may apply poorly
to many people.
On 6/20/2025 5:08 PM, Zen Cycle wrote:
... an imbalance
between your Golgi tendon and your propria receptors,"
Gosh, why didn't I think of that? ;-)
On 6/20/2025 5:17 PM, AMuzi wrote:
When I was new to cycling, the old guys said yellow
mustard for cramps. I have no personal experience.
It works for me, well enough that I used to carry fast food
restaurant packets of mustard in my handlebar bag. I may
still have some in there, but it's been a long time since I
needed them.
When I say "works for me," I should append "for a while"
unless the cramp happens after the ride is done.
I remember one rider who swore that yanking one's nasal
septum downward sharply would relieve a leg cramp -
something about related nerve system points, acupuncture
charts and all that. Again I don't know.
I've also heard, and used, a very strong pinch on my upper lip.
It all begins to sound like magic.
On 6/20/2025 8:54 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/20/2025 6:32 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/20/2025 5:17 PM, AMuzi wrote:
When I was new to cycling, the old guys said yellow
mustard for cramps. I have no personal experience.
It works for me, well enough that I used to carry fast
food restaurant packets of mustard in my handlebar bag. I
may still have some in there, but it's been a long time
since I needed them.
When I say "works for me," I should append "for a while"
unless the cramp happens after the ride is done.
I remember one rider who swore that yanking one's nasal
septum downward sharply would relieve a leg cramp -
something about related nerve system points, acupuncture
charts and all that. Again I don't know.
I've also heard, and used, a very strong pinch on my
upper lip.
It all begins to sound like magic.
I think acupuncture is real, not magic, but I wouldn't
know where to begin and have zero experience.
Hmm. Has anyone tried acupuncture for cycling-generated cramps?
And for the do-it-yourself crowd, the needles would be
lightweight and easy to fit in a bike bag! ;-)
On 20/6/25 18:23, Catrike Ryder wrote:
On Fri, 20 Jun 2025 10:17:28 +1000, James <[email protected]>
wrote:
I often weigh myself before and after a ride. In summer I often don't
need to stop for a leak over a 4 hour ride. I know how much fluid I
have taken on, which might be 2.4 litres plus 200 ml of coffee. I often >>> finish 2 kg lighter, so I know I have lost about 4.5 kg or litres of
sweat in total.
I sweat more than that. I've sometimes lost 4 or 5 pounds on a bike
ride and that's with drinking several 24 oz bottles of water. That's
how I'm able to ride in 90+ degree weather.
24 oz is 710 ml. Several is 3? Not as much as my 3x 800 ml bottles.
5 lb is 2.3 kg. Quite similar to what I said.
In summer I often ride in 100+ degree F, or 38+ C, with RH about 50%.
You might sweat more, but from what you wrote, probably not.
On 6/20/2025 6:32 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/20/2025 5:17 PM, AMuzi wrote:
When I was new to cycling, the old guys said yellow mustard for
cramps. I have no personal experience.
It works for me, well enough that I used to carry fast food restaurant
packets of mustard in my handlebar bag. I may still have some in
there, but it's been a long time since I needed them.
When I say "works for me," I should append "for a while" unless the
cramp happens after the ride is done.
I remember one rider who swore that yanking one's nasal septum
downward sharply would relieve a leg cramp - something about related
nerve system points, acupuncture charts and all that. Again I don't
know.
I've also heard, and used, a very strong pinch on my upper lip.
It all begins to sound like magic.
I think acupuncture is real, not magic, but I wouldn't know where to
begin and have zero experience.
On 6/20/2025 6:00 PM, AMuzi wrote:
In my lifetime, the US government has decreed 'coffee is bad' and then
'coffee is good' in cycles. Same with other food aspects such as
marbled fatty meat. They once said mostly carbohydrates made the best
diet:
https://tinyurl.com/2v6mh48d
and so on. Forever.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/travel-back-time-these-old-
usda-dietary-guidelines-180957741/
I'm reading a book debunking "Paleo" logic regarding diet, exercise,
sex, etc. etc.
One of the author's main points may be that people differ much more than
we realize, so many recommendations (scientific or not) may apply poorly
to many people.
On 6/20/2025 8:54 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/20/2025 6:32 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/20/2025 5:17 PM, AMuzi wrote:
When I was new to cycling, the old guys said yellow
mustard for cramps. I have no personal experience.
It works for me, well enough that I used to carry fast
food restaurant packets of mustard in my handlebar bag. I
may still have some in there, but it's been a long time
since I needed them.
When I say "works for me," I should append "for a while"
unless the cramp happens after the ride is done.
I remember one rider who swore that yanking one's nasal
septum downward sharply would relieve a leg cramp -
something about related nerve system points, acupuncture
charts and all that. Again I don't know.
I've also heard, and used, a very strong pinch on my
upper lip.
It all begins to sound like magic.
I think acupuncture is real, not magic, but I wouldn't
know where to begin and have zero experience.
There's a lot of credibility to acupuncture and acupressure
from the perspective that manipulating certain nerve
networks can illicit autonomic responses. Most notable is
the Vagus nerve which is a conduit for a huge amount of
functions.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5859128/#S7
Acupuncture isn't magic but there is a lot of guesswork
involved becasue the same points don't have the same
response on every person, and the practitioners often don't
have an in-depth understanding of the the physiology of the
human nervous system.
Our nervous system is complex and poorly understood,
medically, in terms of overriding one signal with another,
which is what acupuncture basically does. Here's one man's
assessment of leg cramp therapy:
https://www.manchesteracupuncturestudio.org/blog/258-in-the-absence-of-regular-acupuncture-a-one-point-leg-cramp-fix
Again I have no direct experience.
On 6/20/2025 6:32 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/20/2025 5:17 PM, AMuzi wrote:
When I was new to cycling, the old guys said yellow
mustard for cramps. I have no personal experience.
It works for me, well enough that I used to carry fast food
restaurant packets of mustard in my handlebar bag. I may
still have some in there, but it's been a long time since I
needed them.
When I say "works for me," I should append "for a while"
unless the cramp happens after the ride is done.
I remember one rider who swore that yanking one's nasal
septum downward sharply would relieve a leg cramp -
something about related nerve system points, acupuncture
charts and all that. Again I don't know.
I've also heard, and used, a very strong pinch on my upper lip.
It all begins to sound like magic.
I think acupuncture is real, not magic, but I wouldn't know
where to begin and have zero experience.
On Fri, 20 Jun 2025 19:54:02 -0500, AMuzi <[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/20/2025 6:32 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/20/2025 5:17 PM, AMuzi wrote:
When I was new to cycling, the old guys said yellow
mustard for cramps. I have no personal experience.
It works for me, well enough that I used to carry fast food
restaurant packets of mustard in my handlebar bag. I may
still have some in there, but it's been a long time since I
needed them.
When I say "works for me," I should append "for a while"
unless the cramp happens after the ride is done.
I remember one rider who swore that yanking one's nasal
septum downward sharply would relieve a leg cramp -
something about related nerve system points, acupuncture
charts and all that. Again I don't know.
I've also heard, and used, a very strong pinch on my upper lip.
It all begins to sound like magic.
I think acupuncture is real, not magic, but I wouldn't know
where to begin and have zero experience.
Acupuncture relieves symptoms. It does not cure anything. Like
rubbing a twisted ankle or blowing on a burn. The "touch" stimulus
overrides the pain. So it does have its uses but remember that rubbing
a twisted ankle might make it worse and blowing on a burn could infect
it.
[]'s
On 6/22/2025 10:06 AM, Shadow wrote:
On Fri, 20 Jun 2025 19:54:02 -0500, AMuzi <[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/20/2025 6:32 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/20/2025 5:17 PM, AMuzi wrote:
When I was new to cycling, the old guys said yellow
mustard for cramps. I have no personal experience.
It works for me, well enough that I used to carry fast food
restaurant packets of mustard in my handlebar bag. I may
still have some in there, but it's been a long time since I
needed them.
When I say "works for me," I should append "for a while"
unless the cramp happens after the ride is done.
I remember one rider who swore that yanking one's nasal
septum downward sharply would relieve a leg cramp -
something about related nerve system points, acupuncture
charts and all that. Again I don't know.
I've also heard, and used, a very strong pinch on my upper lip.
It all begins to sound like magic.
I think acupuncture is real, not magic, but I wouldn't know
where to begin and have zero experience.
Acupuncture relieves symptoms. It does not cure anything. Like
rubbing a twisted ankle or blowing on a burn. The "touch" stimulus
overrides the pain. So it does have its uses but remember that rubbing
a twisted ankle might make it worse and blowing on a burn could infect
it.
[]'s
Yes, I agree. You make a good point in that acupuncture, in
theory, counters an unwanted nerve signal with a seemingly
unrelated nerve signal to cancel or override the first.
That is not at all addressing the reason for the initial
unwanted nerve signal.
On 6/22/2025 12:10 PM, Shadow wrote:
On Sun, 22 Jun 2025 10:15:01 -0500, AMuzi <[email protected]> wrote:There's still the undeniable (IME) fact that swallowing a bit of mustard
On 6/22/2025 10:06 AM, Shadow wrote:
On Fri, 20 Jun 2025 19:54:02 -0500, AMuzi <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>
On 6/20/2025 6:32 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/20/2025 5:17 PM, AMuzi wrote:
When I was new to cycling, the old guys said yellow
mustard for cramps. I have no personal experience.
It works for me, well enough that I used to carry fast food
restaurant packets of mustard in my handlebar bag. I may
still have some in there, but it's been a long time since I
needed them.
When I say "works for me," I should append "for a while"
unless the cramp happens after the ride is done.
I remember one rider who swore that yanking one's nasal
septum downward sharply would relieve a leg cramp -
something about related nerve system points, acupuncture
charts and all that. Again I don't know.
I've also heard, and used, a very strong pinch on my upper lip.
It all begins to sound like magic.
I think acupuncture is real, not magic, but I wouldn't know
where to begin and have zero experience.
Acupuncture relieves symptoms. It does not cure anything. Like
rubbing a twisted ankle or blowing on a burn. The "touch" stimulus
overrides the pain. So it does have its uses but remember that rubbing >>>> a twisted ankle might make it worse and blowing on a burn could infect >>>> it.
[]'s
Yes, I agree. You make a good point in that acupuncture, in
theory, counters an unwanted nerve signal with a seemingly
unrelated nerve signal to cancel or override the first.
Not unrelated. Usually very close. You don't blow on your
thumb if you burned your finger. Or massage your wrist if you sprained
your ankle.
That is not at all addressing the reason for the initial
unwanted nerve signal.
The reason? Anything that can cause pain. In the specific case
of cramp, an electrolyte imbalance or tissue hypoxia. Rubbing the
cramped region can make the pain more bearable, but it won't make the
cramp go away. Extending the limb ( better circulation)and breathing
deeply(more oxygen) is usually more effective.
can stop most cramps almost immediately. That must have nothing to do
with circulation or oxygen.
On 6/22/2025 4:25 PM, Shadow wrote:
On Sun, 22 Jun 2025 15:58:30 -0400, Frank Krygowski"IME" means "in my experience." I'm saying mustard works for me
<[email protected]> wrote:
There's still the undeniable (IME) fact that swallowing a bit of mustard >>> can stop most cramps almost immediately. That must have nothing to do
with circulation or oxygen.
If you say so....
Any double blind studies to verify that?
essentially every time.
Kinda hard to do a double blind study on myself!
If you find yourself suffering from cycling-induced leg cramps, try it.
As I said, I carry some of those thin foil packs of mustard from fast
food restaurants. I just checked and there are still a few in my
handlebar bag.
Let me propose a test! Get a few of those, and get a few similar
mayonnaise packs. If you get a leg cramp while (or just after) cycling,
grab one of those packs at random - mustard or mayo - and swallow it.
Keep track of which one works better.
Ah, but you'll be able to taste the difference, so that won't be a blind
test ...
On Sun, 22 Jun 2025 15:58:30 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/22/2025 12:10 PM, Shadow wrote:
On Sun, 22 Jun 2025 10:15:01 -0500, AMuzi <[email protected]> wrote:There's still the undeniable (IME) fact that swallowing a bit of mustard
On 6/22/2025 10:06 AM, Shadow wrote:
On Fri, 20 Jun 2025 19:54:02 -0500, AMuzi <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>
On 6/20/2025 6:32 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/20/2025 5:17 PM, AMuzi wrote:
When I was new to cycling, the old guys said yellow
mustard for cramps. I have no personal experience.
It works for me, well enough that I used to carry fast food
restaurant packets of mustard in my handlebar bag. I may
still have some in there, but it's been a long time since I
needed them.
When I say "works for me," I should append "for a while"
unless the cramp happens after the ride is done.
I remember one rider who swore that yanking one's nasal
septum downward sharply would relieve a leg cramp -
something about related nerve system points, acupuncture
charts and all that. Again I don't know.
I've also heard, and used, a very strong pinch on my upper lip.
It all begins to sound like magic.
I think acupuncture is real, not magic, but I wouldn't know
where to begin and have zero experience.
Acupuncture relieves symptoms. It does not cure anything. Like
rubbing a twisted ankle or blowing on a burn. The "touch" stimulus
overrides the pain. So it does have its uses but remember that rubbing >>>>> a twisted ankle might make it worse and blowing on a burn could infect >>>>> it.
[]'s
Yes, I agree. You make a good point in that acupuncture, in
theory, counters an unwanted nerve signal with a seemingly
unrelated nerve signal to cancel or override the first.
Not unrelated. Usually very close. You don't blow on your
thumb if you burned your finger. Or massage your wrist if you sprained
your ankle.
That is not at all addressing the reason for the initial
unwanted nerve signal.
The reason? Anything that can cause pain. In the specific case
of cramp, an electrolyte imbalance or tissue hypoxia. Rubbing the
cramped region can make the pain more bearable, but it won't make the
cramp go away. Extending the limb ( better circulation)and breathing
deeply(more oxygen) is usually more effective.
can stop most cramps almost immediately. That must have nothing to do
with circulation or oxygen.
If you say so....
Any double blind studies to verify that?
[]'s
I had been finding that I was suffering more from cramps during a ride
and low blood pressure afterwards, despite drinking about as much water
as was manageable.
I then started adding 1/2 a teaspoon of salt (regular NaCl) to my 800ml bidons of water, and have had no problems since.
Winter is now upon us, and perspiration is much less of an issue, so I
have reduced the dose to 1/4 teaspoon per 800ml water.
I thought initially low blood sugar may have been an issue, but now I
believe I was not able to rehydrate adequately on water alone, after
sweating heavily in the subtropics. I may happen to have a low salt
diet. I don't eat junk food or takeaway.
On 6/22/2025 4:25 PM, Shadow wrote:
On Sun, 22 Jun 2025 15:58:30 -0400, Frank Krygowski"IME" means "in my experience." I'm saying mustard works for me
<[email protected]> wrote:
There's still the undeniable (IME) fact that swallowing a bit of mustard >>> can stop most cramps almost immediately. That must have nothing to do
with circulation or oxygen.
If you say so....
Any double blind studies to verify that?
essentially every time.
Kinda hard to do a double blind study on myself!
If you find yourself suffering from cycling-induced leg cramps, try it.
As I said, I carry some of those thin foil packs of mustard from fast
food restaurants. I just checked and there are still a few in my
handlebar bag.
Let me propose a test! Get a few of those, and get a few similar
mayonnaise packs. If you get a leg cramp while (or just after) cycling,
grab one of those packs at random - mustard or mayo - and swallow it.
Keep track of which one works better.
Ah, but you'll be able to taste the difference, so that won't be a blind
test ...
On 6/22/2025 4:25 PM, Shadow wrote:
On Sun, 22 Jun 2025 15:58:30 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/22/2025 12:10 PM, Shadow wrote:
On Sun, 22 Jun 2025 10:15:01 -0500, AMuzi <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>There's still the undeniable (IME) fact that swallowing a bit of mustard >>> can stop most cramps almost immediately. That must have nothing to do
On 6/22/2025 10:06 AM, Shadow wrote:
On Fri, 20 Jun 2025 19:54:02 -0500, AMuzi <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>
On 6/20/2025 6:32 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/20/2025 5:17 PM, AMuzi wrote:
When I was new to cycling, the old guys said yellow
mustard for cramps. I have no personal experience.
It works for me, well enough that I used to carry fast food
restaurant packets of mustard in my handlebar bag. I may
still have some in there, but it's been a long time since I
needed them.
When I say "works for me," I should append "for a while"
unless the cramp happens after the ride is done.
I remember one rider who swore that yanking one's nasal
septum downward sharply would relieve a leg cramp -
something about related nerve system points, acupuncture
charts and all that. Again I don't know.
I've also heard, and used, a very strong pinch on my upper lip. >>>>>>>>
It all begins to sound like magic.
I think acupuncture is real, not magic, but I wouldn't know
where to begin and have zero experience.
Acupuncture relieves symptoms. It does not cure anything. Like
rubbing a twisted ankle or blowing on a burn. The "touch" stimulus >>>>>> overrides the pain. So it does have its uses but remember that rubbing >>>>>> a twisted ankle might make it worse and blowing on a burn could infect >>>>>> it.
[]'s
Yes, I agree. You make a good point in that acupuncture, in
theory, counters an unwanted nerve signal with a seemingly
unrelated nerve signal to cancel or override the first.
Not unrelated. Usually very close. You don't blow on your
thumb if you burned your finger. Or massage your wrist if you sprained >>>> your ankle.
That is not at all addressing the reason for the initial
unwanted nerve signal.
The reason? Anything that can cause pain. In the specific case
of cramp, an electrolyte imbalance or tissue hypoxia. Rubbing the
cramped region can make the pain more bearable, but it won't make the
cramp go away. Extending the limb ( better circulation)and breathing
deeply(more oxygen) is usually more effective.
with circulation or oxygen.
If you say so....
Any double blind studies to verify that?
[]'s
Lots...
https://www.sciencebasedhealth.com/ContentPage.aspx?WebpageId=840&srsltid=AfmBOopa0bSrVFTRwls-sq3AV7QBmMOszEk48w747ePG4qYLlc_wbvw8
https://journals.lww.com/ajg/abstract/2022/06000/pickle_juice_intervention_for_cirrhotic_cramps.19.aspx
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2742453/
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3975776/
On Mon, 23 Jun 2025 11:41:15 -0400, Zen Cycle <[email protected]>
wrote:
On 6/22/2025 4:25 PM, Shadow wrote:
On Sun, 22 Jun 2025 15:58:30 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/22/2025 12:10 PM, Shadow wrote:
On Sun, 22 Jun 2025 10:15:01 -0500, AMuzi <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>There's still the undeniable (IME) fact that swallowing a bit of mustard >>>> can stop most cramps almost immediately. That must have nothing to do
On 6/22/2025 10:06 AM, Shadow wrote:
On Fri, 20 Jun 2025 19:54:02 -0500, AMuzi <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>
On 6/20/2025 6:32 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/20/2025 5:17 PM, AMuzi wrote:
When I was new to cycling, the old guys said yellow
mustard for cramps. I have no personal experience.
It works for me, well enough that I used to carry fast food
restaurant packets of mustard in my handlebar bag. I may
still have some in there, but it's been a long time since I
needed them.
When I say "works for me," I should append "for a while"
unless the cramp happens after the ride is done.
I remember one rider who swore that yanking one's nasal
septum downward sharply would relieve a leg cramp -
something about related nerve system points, acupuncture
charts and all that. Again I don't know.
I've also heard, and used, a very strong pinch on my upper lip. >>>>>>>>>
It all begins to sound like magic.
I think acupuncture is real, not magic, but I wouldn't know
where to begin and have zero experience.
Acupuncture relieves symptoms. It does not cure anything. Like >>>>>>> rubbing a twisted ankle or blowing on a burn. The "touch" stimulus >>>>>>> overrides the pain. So it does have its uses but remember that rubbing >>>>>>> a twisted ankle might make it worse and blowing on a burn could infect >>>>>>> it.
[]'s
Yes, I agree. You make a good point in that acupuncture, in
theory, counters an unwanted nerve signal with a seemingly
unrelated nerve signal to cancel or override the first.
Not unrelated. Usually very close. You don't blow on your
thumb if you burned your finger. Or massage your wrist if you sprained >>>>> your ankle.
That is not at all addressing the reason for the initial
unwanted nerve signal.
The reason? Anything that can cause pain. In the specific case
of cramp, an electrolyte imbalance or tissue hypoxia. Rubbing the
cramped region can make the pain more bearable, but it won't make the >>>>> cramp go away. Extending the limb ( better circulation)and breathing >>>>> deeply(more oxygen) is usually more effective.
with circulation or oxygen.
If you say so....
Any double blind studies to verify that?
[]'s
Lots...
That's good:
https://www.sciencebasedhealth.com/ContentPage.aspx?WebpageId=840&srsltid=AfmBOopa0bSrVFTRwls-sq3AV7QBmMOszEk48w747ePG4qYLlc_wbvw8
Heavy Google datamining and scripting
//
Finally, would pickle juice work for other types of cramps, such as
nighttime cramping? While this hasn’t been studied, it’s likely that trials in other groups besides those with cirrhosis will be conducted
in the future. For healthy people with exercise-related cramping or
nighttime cramping, a tbsp of pickle juice might be worth a try.
//
https://journals.lww.com/ajg/abstract/2022/06000/pickle_juice_intervention_for_cirrhotic_cramps.19.aspx
Cloudflare datamining. Won't load.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2742453/
//
Ingesting small volumes of pickle juice or
carbohydrate-electrolyte drink produced no changes in plasma
electrolyte concentrations, osmolality, or volume up to 60 minutes postingestion in rested, euhydrated men without exercise-associated
muscle cramps.
Plasma electrolyte concentrations did not change within 1 minute
of pickle juice or carbohydrate-electrolyte drink ingestion.
Ingesting small volumes of pickle juice or
carbohydrate-electrolyte drink may not result in plasma
hyperosmolality or hypervolemia and may not alleviate
exercise-associated muscle cramps by restoring electrolytes or
expanding plasma and/or interstitial volume.
//
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3975776/
//
Ingesting 2 mL/kg body mass of pickle juice (PJ) or hypertonic
saline with water pre-exercise did not affect performance.
Ingesting PJ or hypertonic saline did not alter final core
temperature or sweat volume.
Ingesting PJ or hypertonic saline with modest volumes of water did
not cause plasma volume expansion.
Ingesting small volumes of PJ with water before exercise is
unlikely to affect athletic performance or select thermoregulatory
variables, such as rectal temperature or sweat loss.
//
Ingesting sodium diminishes or even abolished cramps, when
they are hyponatremic. It's an established fact. Take it BEFORE losing
all that sodium.
What does this have to do with Mustard?
[]'s
On 6/23/2025 1:22 PM, Shadow wrote:
On Mon, 23 Jun 2025 11:41:15 -0400, Zen Cycle <[email protected]>
wrote:
On 6/22/2025 4:25 PM, Shadow wrote:
On Sun, 22 Jun 2025 15:58:30 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/22/2025 12:10 PM, Shadow wrote:
On Sun, 22 Jun 2025 10:15:01 -0500, AMuzi <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>There's still the undeniable (IME) fact that swallowing a bit of mustard >>>>> can stop most cramps almost immediately. That must have nothing to do >>>>> with circulation or oxygen.
On 6/22/2025 10:06 AM, Shadow wrote:
On Fri, 20 Jun 2025 19:54:02 -0500, AMuzi <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>
On 6/20/2025 6:32 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/20/2025 5:17 PM, AMuzi wrote:
When I was new to cycling, the old guys said yellow
mustard for cramps. I have no personal experience.
It works for me, well enough that I used to carry fast food >>>>>>>>>> restaurant packets of mustard in my handlebar bag. I may
still have some in there, but it's been a long time since I >>>>>>>>>> needed them.
When I say "works for me," I should append "for a while"
unless the cramp happens after the ride is done.
I remember one rider who swore that yanking one's nasal
septum downward sharply would relieve a leg cramp -
something about related nerve system points, acupuncture >>>>>>>>>>> charts and all that. Again I don't know.
I've also heard, and used, a very strong pinch on my upper lip. >>>>>>>>>>
It all begins to sound like magic.
I think acupuncture is real, not magic, but I wouldn't know
where to begin and have zero experience.
Acupuncture relieves symptoms. It does not cure anything. Like >>>>>>>> rubbing a twisted ankle or blowing on a burn. The "touch" stimulus >>>>>>>> overrides the pain. So it does have its uses but remember that rubbing >>>>>>>> a twisted ankle might make it worse and blowing on a burn could infect >>>>>>>> it.
[]'s
Yes, I agree. You make a good point in that acupuncture, in
theory, counters an unwanted nerve signal with a seemingly
unrelated nerve signal to cancel or override the first.
Not unrelated. Usually very close. You don't blow on your
thumb if you burned your finger. Or massage your wrist if you sprained >>>>>> your ankle.
That is not at all addressing the reason for the initial
unwanted nerve signal.
The reason? Anything that can cause pain. In the specific case
of cramp, an electrolyte imbalance or tissue hypoxia. Rubbing the
cramped region can make the pain more bearable, but it won't make the >>>>>> cramp go away. Extending the limb ( better circulation)and breathing >>>>>> deeply(more oxygen) is usually more effective.
If you say so....
Any double blind studies to verify that?
[]'s
Lots...
That's good:
https://www.sciencebasedhealth.com/ContentPage.aspx?WebpageId=840&srsltid=AfmBOopa0bSrVFTRwls-sq3AV7QBmMOszEk48w747ePG4qYLlc_wbvw8
Heavy Google datamining and scripting
//
Finally, would pickle juice work for other types of cramps, such as
nighttime cramping? While this hasn�t been studied, it�s likely that
trials in other groups besides those with cirrhosis will be conducted
in the future. For healthy people with exercise-related cramping or
nighttime cramping, a tbsp of pickle juice might be worth a try.
//
https://journals.lww.com/ajg/abstract/2022/06000/pickle_juice_intervention_for_cirrhotic_cramps.19.aspx
Cloudflare datamining. Won't load.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2742453/
//
Ingesting small volumes of pickle juice or
carbohydrate-electrolyte drink produced no changes in plasma
electrolyte concentrations, osmolality, or volume up to 60 minutes
postingestion in rested, euhydrated men without exercise-associated
muscle cramps.
Plasma electrolyte concentrations did not change within 1 minute
of pickle juice or carbohydrate-electrolyte drink ingestion.
Ingesting small volumes of pickle juice or
carbohydrate-electrolyte drink may not result in plasma
hyperosmolality or hypervolemia and may not alleviate
exercise-associated muscle cramps by restoring electrolytes or
expanding plasma and/or interstitial volume.
//
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3975776/
//
Ingesting 2 mL/kg body mass of pickle juice (PJ) or hypertonic
saline with water pre-exercise did not affect performance.
Ingesting PJ or hypertonic saline did not alter final core
temperature or sweat volume.
Ingesting PJ or hypertonic saline with modest volumes of water did
not cause plasma volume expansion.
Ingesting small volumes of PJ with water before exercise is
unlikely to affect athletic performance or select thermoregulatory
variables, such as rectal temperature or sweat loss.
//
Ingesting sodium diminishes or even abolished cramps, when
they are hyponatremic. It's an established fact. Take it BEFORE losing
all that sodium.
What does this have to do with Mustard?
[]'s
A large component of mustard is vinegar - acetic acid - the same major >component in pickle brine. There's an nervous system response if pickle
juice is taken at the onset of cramps. As the quoted studies show
there's no benefit in taking before cramping, and taking after the onset
also has little effect. It needs to be ingested when the cramps first
come on.
As noted elsethread: >https://www.cooperinstitute.org/blog/does-pickle-juice-relieve-muscle-cramps
"the acetic acid in pickle juice is �noxious tasting� and proposed to >chemically stimulate a reflex in the back of the throat. This reflex has
been shown to decrease activity in the alpha motor neurons which causes >muscle relaxation. You don�t even have to swallow the pickle juice to
trigger the reflex, which can relieve cramps in less than 3-4 minutes >(Miller, 2010b)"
This is Miller 2010b:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19997012/
"We suspect that the rapid inhibition of the electrically induced cramps >reflects a neurally mediated reflex that originates in the oropharyngeal >region and acts to inhibit the firing of alpha motor neurons of the
cramping muscle. "
On Mon, 23 Jun 2025 14:05:23 -0400, Zen Cycle <[email protected]>
wrote:
On 6/23/2025 1:22 PM, Shadow wrote:
On Mon, 23 Jun 2025 11:41:15 -0400, Zen Cycle <[email protected]>
wrote:
On 6/22/2025 4:25 PM, Shadow wrote:
On Sun, 22 Jun 2025 15:58:30 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/22/2025 12:10 PM, Shadow wrote:
On Sun, 22 Jun 2025 10:15:01 -0500, AMuzi <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>There's still the undeniable (IME) fact that swallowing a bit of mustard >>>>>> can stop most cramps almost immediately. That must have nothing to do >>>>>> with circulation or oxygen.
On 6/22/2025 10:06 AM, Shadow wrote:
On Fri, 20 Jun 2025 19:54:02 -0500, AMuzi <[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/20/2025 6:32 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/20/2025 5:17 PM, AMuzi wrote:
When I was new to cycling, the old guys said yellow
mustard for cramps. I have no personal experience.
It works for me, well enough that I used to carry fast food >>>>>>>>>>> restaurant packets of mustard in my handlebar bag. I may >>>>>>>>>>> still have some in there, but it's been a long time since I >>>>>>>>>>> needed them.
When I say "works for me," I should append "for a while" >>>>>>>>>>> unless the cramp happens after the ride is done.
I remember one rider who swore that yanking one's nasal >>>>>>>>>>>> septum downward sharply would relieve a leg cramp -
something about related nerve system points, acupuncture >>>>>>>>>>>> charts and all that. Again I don't know.
I've also heard, and used, a very strong pinch on my upper lip. >>>>>>>>>>>
It all begins to sound like magic.
I think acupuncture is real, not magic, but I wouldn't know >>>>>>>>>> where to begin and have zero experience.
Acupuncture relieves symptoms. It does not cure anything. Like >>>>>>>>> rubbing a twisted ankle or blowing on a burn. The "touch" stimulus >>>>>>>>> overrides the pain. So it does have its uses but remember that rubbing
a twisted ankle might make it worse and blowing on a burn could infect
it.
[]'s
Yes, I agree. You make a good point in that acupuncture, in
theory, counters an unwanted nerve signal with a seemingly
unrelated nerve signal to cancel or override the first.
Not unrelated. Usually very close. You don't blow on your >>>>>>> thumb if you burned your finger. Or massage your wrist if you sprained >>>>>>> your ankle.
That is not at all addressing the reason for the initial
unwanted nerve signal.
The reason? Anything that can cause pain. In the specific case >>>>>>> of cramp, an electrolyte imbalance or tissue hypoxia. Rubbing the >>>>>>> cramped region can make the pain more bearable, but it won't make the >>>>>>> cramp go away. Extending the limb ( better circulation)and breathing >>>>>>> deeply(more oxygen) is usually more effective.
If you say so....
Any double blind studies to verify that?
[]'s
Lots...
That's good:
https://www.sciencebasedhealth.com/ContentPage.aspx?WebpageId=840&srsltid=AfmBOopa0bSrVFTRwls-sq3AV7QBmMOszEk48w747ePG4qYLlc_wbvw8
Heavy Google datamining and scripting
//
Finally, would pickle juice work for other types of cramps, such as
nighttime cramping? While this hasn’t been studied, it’s likely that >>> trials in other groups besides those with cirrhosis will be conducted
in the future. For healthy people with exercise-related cramping or
nighttime cramping, a tbsp of pickle juice might be worth a try.
//
https://journals.lww.com/ajg/abstract/2022/06000/pickle_juice_intervention_for_cirrhotic_cramps.19.aspx
Cloudflare datamining. Won't load.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2742453/
//
Ingesting small volumes of pickle juice or
carbohydrate-electrolyte drink produced no changes in plasma
electrolyte concentrations, osmolality, or volume up to 60 minutes
postingestion in rested, euhydrated men without exercise-associated
muscle cramps.
Plasma electrolyte concentrations did not change within 1 minute
of pickle juice or carbohydrate-electrolyte drink ingestion.
Ingesting small volumes of pickle juice or
carbohydrate-electrolyte drink may not result in plasma
hyperosmolality or hypervolemia and may not alleviate
exercise-associated muscle cramps by restoring electrolytes or
expanding plasma and/or interstitial volume.
//
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3975776/
//
Ingesting 2 mL/kg body mass of pickle juice (PJ) or hypertonic
saline with water pre-exercise did not affect performance.
Ingesting PJ or hypertonic saline did not alter final core
temperature or sweat volume.
Ingesting PJ or hypertonic saline with modest volumes of water did >>> not cause plasma volume expansion.
Ingesting small volumes of PJ with water before exercise is
unlikely to affect athletic performance or select thermoregulatory
variables, such as rectal temperature or sweat loss.
//
Ingesting sodium diminishes or even abolished cramps, when
they are hyponatremic. It's an established fact. Take it BEFORE losing
all that sodium.
What does this have to do with Mustard?
[]'s
A large component of mustard is vinegar - acetic acid - the same major
component in pickle brine. There's an nervous system response if pickle
juice is taken at the onset of cramps. As the quoted studies show
there's no benefit in taking before cramping, and taking after the onset
also has little effect. It needs to be ingested when the cramps first
come on.
As noted elsethread:
https://www.cooperinstitute.org/blog/does-pickle-juice-relieve-muscle-cramps >>
"the acetic acid in pickle juice is ‘noxious tasting’ and proposed to
chemically stimulate a reflex in the back of the throat. This reflex has
been shown to decrease activity in the alpha motor neurons which causes
muscle relaxation. You don’t even have to swallow the pickle juice to
trigger the reflex, which can relieve cramps in less than 3-4 minutes
(Miller, 2010b)"
This is Miller 2010b:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19997012/
"We suspect that the rapid inhibition of the electrically induced cramps
reflects a neurally mediated reflex that originates in the oropharyngeal
region and acts to inhibit the firing of alpha motor neurons of the
cramping muscle. "
The next 5 or 6 studies on that page do not agree.
And 15 years later no Clinical Medicine book recommends
mustard (or pickle juice) to treat an acute case of cramp.
Cramp is so common someone must have done the research...
Maybe the problem is that salt is too cheap?
[]'s
A large component of mustard is vinegar - acetic acid - the same major >component in pickle brine. There's an nervous system response if pickle
juice is taken at the onset of cramps. As the quoted studies show
there's no benefit in taking before cramping, and taking after the onset
also has little effect. It needs to be ingested when the cramps first
come on.
On 6/23/2025 4:19 PM, Shadow wrote:
The next 5 or 6 studies on that page do not agree.
And 15 years later no Clinical Medicine book recommends
mustard (or pickle juice) to treat an acute case of cramp.
Cramp is so common someone must have done the research...
Maybe the problem is that salt is too cheap?
I'm not convinced that "someone must have done the research." There's no >money to be made by the results whether they are positive or negative;
but more important, I think the medical industry is fundamentally >uninterested in a problem that is considered negligible.
As in "You get cramps when you ride your bike in hot weather? Well,
don't ride your bike in hot weather!"
Our riding may be important to us even when its hot, but it's not
important to them.
On Mon, 23 Jun 2025 14:05:23 -0400, Zen Cycle <[email protected]>
wrote:
A large component of mustard is vinegar - acetic acid - the same major
component in pickle brine. There's an nervous system response if pickle
juice is taken at the onset of cramps. As the quoted studies show
there's no benefit in taking before cramping, and taking after the onset
also has little effect. It needs to be ingested when the cramps first
come on.
I'm not sure that's possible or practical. For me, there's no prior
warning or any indication of an approaching onset of cramps. One
minute, I'm fine. The next minute, the leg hurts. At best, I might
get a few seconds warning, which is not enough time to make a dash for
the mustard or vinegar.
"Leg Cramps" <https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/14170-leg-cramps> "Unfortunately, leg cramps happen very suddenly. There aren't any
warning signs."
On 6/23/2025 4:19 PM, Shadow wrote:
The next 5 or 6 studies on that page do not agree.
And 15 years later no Clinical Medicine book recommends
mustard (or pickle juice) to treat an acute case of cramp.
Cramp is so common someone must have done the research...
Maybe the problem is that salt is too cheap?
I'm not convinced that "someone must have done the research." There's no money to be made by the results whether they are positive or negative;
but more important, I think the medical industry is fundamentally uninterested in a problem that is considered negligible.
As in "You get cramps when you ride your bike in hot weather? Well,
don't ride your bike in hot weather!"
Our riding may be important to us even when its hot, but it's not
important to them.
On Mon, 23 Jun 2025 14:05:23 -0400, Zen Cycle <[email protected]>
wrote:
A large component of mustard is vinegar - acetic acid - the same major
component in pickle brine. There's an nervous system response if pickle
juice is taken at the onset of cramps. As the quoted studies show
there's no benefit in taking before cramping, and taking after the onset
also has little effect. It needs to be ingested when the cramps first
come on.
I'm not sure that's possible or practical. For me, there's no prior
warning or any indication of an approaching onset of cramps. One
minute, I'm fine. The next minute, the leg hurts. At best, I might
get a few seconds warning, which is not enough time to make a dash for
the mustard or vinegar.
"Leg Cramps" <https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/14170-leg-cramps> "Unfortunately, leg cramps happen very suddenly. There aren't any
warning signs."
On 6/23/2025 4:19 PM, Shadow wrote:
The next 5 or 6 studies on that page do not agree.
And 15 years later no Clinical Medicine book recommends
mustard (or pickle juice) to treat an acute case of cramp.
Cramp is so common someone must have done the research...
Maybe the problem is that salt is too cheap?
I'm not convinced that "someone must have done the research." There's no >money to be made by the results whether they are positive or negative;
but more important, I think the medical industry is fundamentally >uninterested in a problem that is considered negligible.
As in "You get cramps when you ride your bike in hot weather? Well,
don't ride your bike in hot weather!"
Our riding may be important to us even when its hot, but it's not
important to them.
On 6/24/2025 11:04 AM, Shadow wrote:
On Mon, 23 Jun 2025 21:40:28 -0400, Frank KrygowskiI'm not saying all research is profit oriented. (That idea would more
<[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/23/2025 4:19 PM, Shadow wrote:
The next 5 or 6 studies on that page do not agree.
And 15 years later no Clinical Medicine book recommends
mustard (or pickle juice) to treat an acute case of cramp.
Cramp is so common someone must have done the research...
Maybe the problem is that salt is too cheap?
I'm not convinced that "someone must have done the research." There's no >>> money to be made by the results whether they are positive or negative;
but more important, I think the medical industry is fundamentally
uninterested in a problem that is considered negligible.
As in "You get cramps when you ride your bike in hot weather? Well,
don't ride your bike in hot weather!"
Our riding may be important to us even when its hot, but it's not
important to them.
Almost all research in democratic countries(center or
center-left) are not to make big pharma richer.
In fact, you have to cite that the research is biased if it is
done for profit.
I used to read hundreds of studies a week. I'd say 90% were
not "for profit".
Sugar, cholesterol, salt, eggs, coffee. wine, exercise and how
often and how intense, flight patterns of the barbeiro (transmits
Chaga's disease), minimum amount of inoculate to catch cholera ... all
studies that do not even mention treatment.
I did my thesis on antigens in the streptococcal membrane and
their similarity to antigens of the endothelium of the heart valves.
Why some people get rheumatic fever, they produce antibodies to
themselves... didn't make a cent off that. Everyone knew that a
monthly injection of benzatine penicillin stabilized RF, they just
didn't know why.
likely come from some Florida guy.) But I do think research on a problem
is more likely if industry thinks it has a good chance of leading to
profits.
What I actually said above is that it's more likely that the problem of >cramps from riding in hot weather is considered unimportant.
Like most guys my age, I've had some minor problems with BPH. My
urologist bemoaned the relative paucity of research on that problem, and
he felt it was because it was generally perceived to be too unimportant
to bother researching.
On 6/24/2025 11:04 AM, Shadow wrote:
On Mon, 23 Jun 2025 21:40:28 -0400, Frank KrygowskiI'm not saying all research is profit oriented. (That idea would more
<[email protected]> wrote:
On 6/23/2025 4:19 PM, Shadow wrote:
The next 5 or 6 studies on that page do not agree.
And 15 years later no Clinical Medicine book recommends
mustard (or pickle juice) to treat an acute case of cramp.
Cramp is so common someone must have done the research...
Maybe the problem is that salt is too cheap?
I'm not convinced that "someone must have done the research." There's no >>> money to be made by the results whether they are positive or negative;
but more important, I think the medical industry is fundamentally
uninterested in a problem that is considered negligible.
As in "You get cramps when you ride your bike in hot weather? Well,
don't ride your bike in hot weather!"
Our riding may be important to us even when its hot, but it's not
important to them.
Almost all research in democratic countries(center or
center-left) are not to make big pharma richer.
In fact, you have to cite that the research is biased if it is
done for profit.
I used to read hundreds of studies a week. I'd say 90% were
not "for profit".
Sugar, cholesterol, salt, eggs, coffee. wine, exercise and how
often and how intense, flight patterns of the barbeiro (transmits
Chaga's disease), minimum amount of inoculate to catch cholera ... all
studies that do not even mention treatment.
I did my thesis on antigens in the streptococcal membrane and
their similarity to antigens of the endothelium of the heart valves.
Why some people get rheumatic fever, they produce antibodies to
themselves... didn't make a cent off that. Everyone knew that a
monthly injection of benzatine penicillin stabilized RF, they just
didn't know why.
likely come from some Florida guy.) But I do think research on a problem
is more likely if industry thinks it has a good chance of leading to
profits.
What I actually said above is that it's more likely that the problem of >cramps from riding in hot weather is considered unimportant.
Like most guys my age, I've had some minor problems with BPH. My
urologist bemoaned the relative paucity of research on that problem, and
he felt it was because it was generally perceived to be too unimportant
to bother researching.
YMMV
On Mon, 23 Jun 2025 22:09:08 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<[email protected]> wrote:
YMMV
YMDWV
YMMV
YMDWV
Is that a rainbow colored version of YMMV or is it the
opposite?
On Fri, 04 Jul 2025 18:51:54 -0300, Shadow <[email protected]>
wrote:
YMMV
YMDWV
Is that a rainbow colored version of YMMV or is it the
opposite?
Typo for YMAWV -- your mileage absolutely will vary.
I had been finding that I was suffering more from cramps during a rideIn the U.S., most cyclists are now drinking PLEZi to replenish
and low blood pressure afterwards, despite drinking about as much water
as was manageable.
I then started adding 1/2 a teaspoon of salt (regular NaCl) to my 800ml bidons of water, and have had no problems since.
Winter is now upon us, and perspiration is much less of an issue, so I
have reduced the dose to 1/4 teaspoon per 800ml water.
I thought initially low blood sugar may have been an issue, but now I
believe I was not able to rehydrate adequately on water alone, after
sweating heavily in the subtropics. I may happen to have a low salt
diet. I don't eat junk food or takeaway.
On 6/18/2025 1:02 AM, James wrote:
I had been finding that I was suffering more from crampsIn the U.S., most cyclists are now drinking PLEZi to
during a ride and low blood pressure afterwards, despite
drinking about as much water as was manageable.
I then started adding 1/2 a teaspoon of salt (regular
NaCl) to my 800ml bidons of water, and have had no
problems since.
Winter is now upon us, and perspiration is much less of an
issue, so I have reduced the dose to 1/4 teaspoon per
800ml water.
I thought initially low blood sugar may have been an
issue, but now I believe I was not able to rehydrate
adequately on water alone, after sweating heavily in the
subtropics. I may happen to have a low salt diet. I
don't eat junk food or takeaway.
replenish electrolytes (the non-carbonated version), see <https://plezi.com/products/hydration-orange-smash> .
PLEZi is a company started by former First Lady Michelle
Obama. Today, in the SF Bay Area, Stephen Curry is appearing
at a Safeway supermarket and a Costco to promote PLEZi.
See https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/stephen-curry-just- launched-no-185553589.html .
I use Nuun tablets, see <https://nuunlife.com/products/nuun-
sport>.
On 6/18/2025 1:02 AM, James wrote:
I had been finding that I was suffering more from cramps during a rideIn the U.S., most cyclists are now drinking PLEZi to replenish
and low blood pressure afterwards, despite drinking about as much
water as was manageable.
I then started adding 1/2 a teaspoon of salt (regular NaCl) to my
800ml bidons of water, and have had no problems since.
Winter is now upon us, and perspiration is much less of an issue, so I
have reduced the dose to 1/4 teaspoon per 800ml water.
I thought initially low blood sugar may have been an issue, but now I
believe I was not able to rehydrate adequately on water alone, after
sweating heavily in the subtropics. I may happen to have a low salt
diet. I don't eat junk food or takeaway.
electrolytes (the non-carbonated version),
see <https://plezi.com/
products/hydration-orange-smash> .
PLEZi is a company started by former First Lady Michelle Obama. Today,
in the SF Bay Area, Stephen Curry is appearing at a Safeway supermarket
and a Costco to promote PLEZi.
See https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/stephen-curry-just-launched- no-185553589.html .
I use Nuun tablets, see <https://nuunlife.com/products/nuun-sport>.
On 7/18/2025 2:19 PM, sms wrote:
I'm certain that our favorite troll is anxious to drink PLEZi since it's Michelle Obama's company and he's a great admirer of the Obamas.In the U.S., most cyclists are now drinking PLEZi to replenish
electrolytes (the non-carbonated version),
I don't believe that to be true.
| Sysop: | Keyop |
|---|---|
| Location: | Huddersfield, West Yorkshire, UK |
| Users: | 715 |
| Nodes: | 16 (2 / 14) |
| Uptime: | 18:49:30 |
| Calls: | 12,103 |
| Calls today: | 3 |
| Files: | 15,004 |
| Messages: | 6,518,087 |