• Re: "Danger! Danger!" - or not!

    From AMuzi@21:1/5 to Frank Krygowski on Fri May 30 20:08:00 2025
    On 5/30/2025 7:43 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
    I'm constantly amazed at the "Danger! Danger!" warnings
    heaped on ordinary bicycling. It seems that millions of
    people "know" that one cannot be safe riding a bike unless
    they wear a very weird styrofoam hat; or garish, hi-viz
    clothing; or run bright lights front and back, even in full
    daylight; or ride only on flat, boring multi-use paths,
    because riding anywhere near motor vehicles can't possibly
    be safe.

    Yet research comparisons between various activities almost
    always show ordinary cycling (i.e. not gonzo off-road
    downhilling) to be quite safe. I came across another
    relevant research paper today: "Active Living and Injury
    Risk" by Parkkari, in the International Journal of Sports
    Medicine.
    http://bionics.seas.ucla.edu/education/Rowing/
    Injury_2004_01.pdf

    They used extensive surveys to evaluate risk of injuries per
    1000 hours of activity in dozens of activities. Here are
    results for some common activities - with lower numbers
    being better:

    Ordinary (e.g. commuting) bicycling: 0.42 injuries per 1000
    hours.
    Walking;   0.19 injuries per 1000 hours
    Gardening: 1.01
    Home Repair: 0.54
    Basketball: 9.1
    Soccer: 7.8
    Tennis: 4.7
    Badminton: 4.6
    Running: 3.6
    Competitive cycling: 2.0
    Dancing: 0.7 injuries per 1000 hours.

    So if you're afraid to ride a bike on a normal road, you
    should be more afraid of gardening. (And this is not the
    only study that found gardening to be riskier than cycling!)
    Also, think twice before going dancing, let alone the scary
    sport of badminton!

    BTW, the paper says "when commuting to shop, office or
    school it is
    safer to walk rather than ride a bike." I think that's a
    mistake. Since whatever shop you're heading for is a fixed
    distance away, what matters is the risk per km or per mile,
    not per hour. Bicycling's per hour risk was found to be 2.2
    times that of walking; but I think almost all bicyclists
    ride faster than 6.6 miles per hour - that is, faster than
    2.2 times the normal walking pace of 3 mph. So per mile,
    cycling is safer than walking, a fact that pops up
    consistently in relative risk studies.

    Zen is apparently the only one posting here who still races.
    He should take comfort in the fact that they found racing to
    be safer than badminton!



    I'm with you.

    But out in the actual world (a collection of fantasy
    regardless of fact) La Principessa Maria Carolina is alive
    today solely due to her helmet. Or so goes the reportage:

    https://nypost.com/2025/05/30/entertainment/italys-princess-maria-carolina-crashes-headfirst-into-a-wall-in-motorcycle-accident/

    --
    Andrew Muzi
    [email protected]
    Open every day since 1 April, 1971

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  • From Catrike Ryder@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Sat May 31 04:02:20 2025
    On Fri, 30 May 2025 20:43:02 -0400, Frank Krygowski
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    I'm constantly amazed at the "Danger! Danger!" warnings heaped on
    ordinary bicycling. It seems that millions of people "know" that one
    cannot be safe riding a bike unless they wear a very weird styrofoam
    hat; or garish, hi-viz clothing; or run bright lights front and back,
    even in full daylight; or ride only on flat, boring multi-use paths,
    because riding anywhere near motor vehicles can't possibly be safe.

    Yet research comparisons between various activities almost always show >ordinary cycling (i.e. not gonzo off-road downhilling) to be quite safe.
    I came across another relevant research paper today: "Active Living and >Injury Risk" by Parkkari, in the International Journal of Sports Medicine. >http://bionics.seas.ucla.edu/education/Rowing/Injury_2004_01.pdf

    They used extensive surveys to evaluate risk of injuries per 1000 hours
    of activity in dozens of activities. Here are results for some common >activities - with lower numbers being better:

    Ordinary (e.g. commuting) bicycling: 0.42 injuries per 1000 hours.
    Walking; 0.19 injuries per 1000 hours
    Gardening: 1.01
    Home Repair: 0.54
    Basketball: 9.1
    Soccer: 7.8
    Tennis: 4.7
    Badminton: 4.6
    Running: 3.6
    Competitive cycling: 2.0
    Dancing: 0.7 injuries per 1000 hours.

    So if you're afraid to ride a bike on a normal road, you should be more >afraid of gardening. (And this is not the only study that found
    gardening to be riskier than cycling!) Also, think twice before going >dancing, let alone the scary sport of badminton!

    BTW, the paper says "when commuting to shop, office or school it is
    safer to walk rather than ride a bike." I think that's a mistake. Since >whatever shop you're heading for is a fixed distance away, what matters
    is the risk per km or per mile, not per hour. Bicycling's per hour risk
    was found to be 2.2 times that of walking; but I think almost all
    bicyclists ride faster than 6.6 miles per hour - that is, faster than
    2.2 times the normal walking pace of 3 mph. So per mile, cycling is
    safer than walking, a fact that pops up consistently in relative risk >studies.

    Zen is apparently the only one posting here who still races. He should
    take comfort in the fact that they found racing to be safer than badminton!

    <YAWN>

    Another bunch of pointy-headed researchers wasting time and money on
    surveys that people in real life don't care about.

    I have to wonder what kind of pathetic look-at-me simpletons would
    even respond to surveys like that and how eager were they to be
    included and have their little boo-boos acknowledged by the
    pointy-heads.

    At any rate, I'll evaluate risks for myself.

    --
    C'est bon
    Soloman

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Roger Merriman@21:1/5 to cyclintom on Sat May 31 20:08:40 2025
    cyclintom <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Fri May 30 20:43:02 2025 Frank Krygowski wrote:

    Zen is apparently the only one posting here who still races. He should
    take comfort in the fact that they found racing to be safer than badminton!




    And you don't find those numbers peculiar? What injuries are sustained in badmitten as opposed to riding down mountain passes in the rain at 50 mph?


    Very few racers will be regularly riding down mountain passes, and to be
    honest while the speed clearly makes any crash potentially serious, in my experience they aren’t particularly dangerous, relatively good sight lines, so on.

    Roger Merriman

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Catrike Ryder@21:1/5 to Roger Merriman on Sat May 31 16:45:38 2025
    On 31 May 2025 20:08:40 GMT, Roger Merriman <[email protected]> wrote:

    cyclintom <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Fri May 30 20:43:02 2025 Frank Krygowski wrote:

    Zen is apparently the only one posting here who still races. He should
    take comfort in the fact that they found racing to be safer than badminton! >>



    And you don't find those numbers peculiar? What injuries are sustained in
    badmitten as opposed to riding down mountain passes in the rain at 50 mph? >>

    Very few racers will be regularly riding down mountain passes, and to be >honest while the speed clearly makes any crash potentially serious, in my >experience they aren�t particularly dangerous, relatively good sight lines, >so on.

    Roger Merriman

    I don't what was the intended purpose of that nonsense survey, but it
    was clearly bullshit that was eagerly gobbled up by people who believe
    whatever garbage they're fed.

    --
    C'est bon
    Soloman

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Roger Merriman@21:1/5 to Frank Krygowski on Sat May 31 20:58:37 2025
    Frank Krygowski <[email protected]> wrote:
    I'm constantly amazed at the "Danger! Danger!" warnings heaped on
    ordinary bicycling. It seems that millions of people "know" that one
    cannot be safe riding a bike unless they wear a very weird styrofoam
    hat; or garish, hi-viz clothing; or run bright lights front and back,
    even in full daylight; or ride only on flat, boring multi-use paths,
    because riding anywhere near motor vehicles can't possibly be safe.


    Yet research comparisons between various activities almost always show ordinary cycling (i.e. not gonzo off-road downhilling) to be quite safe.
    I came across another relevant research paper today: "Active Living and Injury Risk" by Parkkari, in the International Journal of Sports Medicine. http://bionics.seas.ucla.edu/education/Rowing/Injury_2004_01.pdf

    Your missing the point that if something feels risky, or isn’t wildly comfortable to do, your unlikely to persuade folks to do so particularly if
    it generally for leisure.

    London’s embankment was that pre the cycleway, hence the main thing I and others noticed was less the extra numbers but the very different types of cyclists.

    As ever it’s back to what you design for!

    They used extensive surveys to evaluate risk of injuries per 1000 hours
    of activity in dozens of activities. Here are results for some common activities - with lower numbers being better:

    Ordinary (e.g. commuting) bicycling: 0.42 injuries per 1000 hours.
    Walking; 0.19 injuries per 1000 hours
    Gardening: 1.01
    Home Repair: 0.54
    Basketball: 9.1
    Soccer: 7.8
    Tennis: 4.7
    Badminton: 4.6
    Running: 3.6
    Competitive cycling: 2.0
    Dancing: 0.7 injuries per 1000 hours.

    So if you're afraid to ride a bike on a normal road, you should be more afraid of gardening. (And this is not the only study that found
    gardening to be riskier than cycling!) Also, think twice before going dancing, let alone the scary sport of badminton!

    BTW, the paper says "when commuting to shop, office or school it is
    safer to walk rather than ride a bike." I think that's a mistake. Since whatever shop you're heading for is a fixed distance away, what matters
    is the risk per km or per mile, not per hour. Bicycling's per hour risk
    was found to be 2.2 times that of walking; but I think almost all
    bicyclists ride faster than 6.6 miles per hour - that is, faster than
    2.2 times the normal walking pace of 3 mph. So per mile, cycling is
    safer than walking, a fact that pops up consistently in relative risk studies.

    Zen is apparently the only one posting here who still races. He should
    take comfort in the fact that they found racing to be safer than badminton!


    Probably differs on type of injury’s some folks MTB for example do jumps
    and so on, and so do ride with armour such as back protection/full face helmets, my new hydration pack is one of few that doesn’t have a back protection built in from that brand.

    Roger Merriman

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Roger Merriman@21:1/5 to Frank Krygowski on Sun Jun 1 10:01:03 2025
    Frank Krygowski <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 5/31/2025 4:58 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
    Frank Krygowski <[email protected]> wrote:
    I'm constantly amazed at the "Danger! Danger!" warnings heaped on
    ordinary bicycling. It seems that millions of people "know" that one
    cannot be safe riding a bike unless they wear a very weird styrofoam
    hat; or garish, hi-viz clothing; or run bright lights front and back,
    even in full daylight; or ride only on flat, boring multi-use paths,
    because riding anywhere near motor vehicles can't possibly be safe.


    Yet research comparisons between various activities almost always show
    ordinary cycling (i.e. not gonzo off-road downhilling) to be quite safe. >>> I came across another relevant research paper today: "Active Living and
    Injury Risk" by Parkkari, in the International Journal of Sports Medicine. >>> http://bionics.seas.ucla.edu/education/Rowing/Injury_2004_01.pdf

    Your missing the point that if something feels risky, or isn’t wildly
    comfortable to do, your unlikely to persuade folks to do so particularly if >> it generally for leisure.

    One way something can "feel" risky is if the person has been subject to
    years of propaganda claiming it's risky. People tend to believe those
    sorts of warnings, true or not. My point is that the warnings typically
    given regarding bicycling are grossly exaggerated, and perhaps purposely dishonest.

    Admittedly we don’t have quite the same level of sensational journalism
    that you do, but I think that’s a bit of red herring, I can see it putting off people trying a bike, but unlikely to alter their perception of which
    roads feel safe/pleasant or not.

    As ever roads designed for highspeed motorists are unlikely to be
    particularly pleasant places for cycling or any other modes such as walking
    and so on.

    They used extensive surveys to evaluate risk of injuries per 1000 hours
    of activity in dozens of activities. Here are results for some common
    activities - with lower numbers being better:

    Ordinary (e.g. commuting) bicycling: 0.42 injuries per 1000 hours.
    Walking; 0.19 injuries per 1000 hours
    Gardening: 1.01
    Home Repair: 0.54
    Basketball: 9.1
    Soccer: 7.8
    Tennis: 4.7
    Badminton: 4.6
    Running: 3.6
    Competitive cycling: 2.0
    Dancing: 0.7 injuries per 1000 hours.

    So if you're afraid to ride a bike on a normal road, you should be more
    afraid of gardening. (And this is not the only study that found
    gardening to be riskier than cycling!) Also, think twice before going
    dancing, let alone the scary sport of badminton!

    BTW, the paper says "when commuting to shop, office or school it is
    safer to walk rather than ride a bike." I think that's a mistake. Since
    whatever shop you're heading for is a fixed distance away, what matters
    is the risk per km or per mile, not per hour. Bicycling's per hour risk
    was found to be 2.2 times that of walking; but I think almost all
    bicyclists ride faster than 6.6 miles per hour - that is, faster than
    2.2 times the normal walking pace of 3 mph. So per mile, cycling is
    safer than walking, a fact that pops up consistently in relative risk
    studies.

    Zen is apparently the only one posting here who still races. He should
    take comfort in the fact that they found racing to be safer than badminton! >>>

    Probably differs on type of injury’s some folks MTB for example do jumps >> and so on, and so do ride with armour such as back protection/full face
    helmets, my new hydration pack is one of few that doesn’t have a back
    protection built in from that brand.
    If you read the paper, you'll see they surveyed about 3500 people
    repeatedly over a year. That should result in data that represents the
    actual practices of participants during the time they participate in
    each activity. So as with Tom's "descending mountains in the rain at 58
    mph" I suspect the time doing jumps in full face helmets and body armor
    is a small sliver of the total time spent riding bikes. Also note they
    had a separate category for what I call "ordinary" cycling - they called
    it cycling as a "commuting activity" or more accurately, cycling as transportation, to just get somewhere.


    Roger Merriman

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Catrike Ryder@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Sun Jun 1 07:29:26 2025
    On Sat, 31 May 2025 20:26:51 -0400, Frank Krygowski
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 5/31/2025 3:56 PM, cyclintom wrote:
    On Fri May 30 20:43:02 2025 Frank Krygowski wrote:

    Zen is apparently the only one posting here who still races. He should
    take comfort in the fact that they found racing to be safer than badminton! >>
    And you don't find those numbers peculiar? What injuries are sustained in badmitten as opposed to riding down mountain passes in the rain at 50 mph?

    Well, Tom, the data I cited was injuries per 1000 hours activity for all
    the hours spent doing that activity. The bicycling data was for all
    hours riding bikes. What percentage of _your_ bicycling time is spent >descending mountain passes in the rain at 58 mph? For most riders, the
    answer is zero - meaning your oh-so-scary fantasy is just a fantasy. IOW >you're one of those avid cyclists who revel in "Danger! Danger!"
    warnings about your favorite sport. That's just weird.

    And what kind of injuries in badminton? (Or "badmitten" [sic])

    I think badminton is vaguely similar to pickleball, which the survey
    doesn't mention. Many of my club mates have taken up pickleball. As club >safety chairman, I've noted we could use a separate pickleball safety >chairman, because it's producing FAR more injuries than bicycling,
    despite club members accumulating much more time on bikes.

    Pickleball injuries I've heard of are severe back injuries (one guy is
    almost unable to walk weeks after that injury), double broken wrists,
    twisted knees, sprained ankles, mild head injuries, various abrasions
    and bruises and more. Most of those seem to be a result of falls, but
    some are just due to the sudden motions of lunging for the ball. I
    suppose it would be similar for badminton, but I'm not involved in
    either sport.

    BTW, Tom, if you disagree with the data, you should dig up better data. >Nobody here has respect for your WAGs.


    Appatrently, Krygowski spends a lot of time digging up obscure (yes,
    obscure) studies and surveys for nonsense (yes nonsense) data that
    nobody else cares about.

    I'm pretty sure that telling someone that their pickleball game is too dangerous and they should ride their bicycles instead would result in
    laughter.

    --
    C'est bon
    Soloman

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  • From zen cycle@21:1/5 to Roger Merriman on Sun Jun 1 07:39:00 2025
    On 5/31/2025 4:08 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
    cyclintom <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Fri May 30 20:43:02 2025 Frank Krygowski wrote:

    Zen is apparently the only one posting here who still races. He should
    take comfort in the fact that they found racing to be safer than badminton! >>



    And you don't find those numbers peculiar? What injuries are sustained in
    badmitten as opposed to riding down mountain passes in the rain at 50 mph? >>

    Very few racers will be regularly riding down mountain passes, and to be honest while the speed clearly makes any crash potentially serious, in my experience they aren’t particularly dangerous, relatively good sight lines, so on.

    Roger Merriman


    Racers generally have more training and are more fit than your average
    backyard badminton player. It's not surprising that racing has better statistics in that comparison. A valid comparison would be bike racers compared to competitive badminton players.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Catrike Ryder@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Sun Jun 1 07:44:26 2025
    On Sat, 31 May 2025 20:36:40 -0400, Frank Krygowski
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 5/31/2025 4:58 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
    Frank Krygowski <[email protected]> wrote:
    I'm constantly amazed at the "Danger! Danger!" warnings heaped on
    ordinary bicycling. It seems that millions of people "know" that one
    cannot be safe riding a bike unless they wear a very weird styrofoam
    hat; or garish, hi-viz clothing; or run bright lights front and back,
    even in full daylight; or ride only on flat, boring multi-use paths,
    because riding anywhere near motor vehicles can't possibly be safe.


    Yet research comparisons between various activities almost always show
    ordinary cycling (i.e. not gonzo off-road downhilling) to be quite safe. >>> I came across another relevant research paper today: "Active Living and
    Injury Risk" by Parkkari, in the International Journal of Sports Medicine. >>> http://bionics.seas.ucla.edu/education/Rowing/Injury_2004_01.pdf

    Your missing the point that if something feels risky, or isn�t wildly
    comfortable to do, your unlikely to persuade folks to do so particularly if >> it generally for leisure.

    One way something can "feel" risky is if the person has been subject to
    years of propaganda claiming it's risky. People tend to believe those
    sorts of warnings, true or not. My point is that the warnings typically
    given regarding bicycling are grossly exaggerated, and perhaps purposely >dishonest.


    They used extensive surveys to evaluate risk of injuries per 1000 hours
    of activity in dozens of activities. Here are results for some common
    activities - with lower numbers being better:

    Ordinary (e.g. commuting) bicycling: 0.42 injuries per 1000 hours.
    Walking; 0.19 injuries per 1000 hours
    Gardening: 1.01
    Home Repair: 0.54
    Basketball: 9.1
    Soccer: 7.8
    Tennis: 4.7
    Badminton: 4.6
    Running: 3.6
    Competitive cycling: 2.0
    Dancing: 0.7 injuries per 1000 hours.

    So if you're afraid to ride a bike on a normal road, you should be more
    afraid of gardening. (And this is not the only study that found
    gardening to be riskier than cycling!) Also, think twice before going
    dancing, let alone the scary sport of badminton!

    BTW, the paper says "when commuting to shop, office or school it is
    safer to walk rather than ride a bike." I think that's a mistake. Since
    whatever shop you're heading for is a fixed distance away, what matters
    is the risk per km or per mile, not per hour. Bicycling's per hour risk
    was found to be 2.2 times that of walking; but I think almost all
    bicyclists ride faster than 6.6 miles per hour - that is, faster than
    2.2 times the normal walking pace of 3 mph. So per mile, cycling is
    safer than walking, a fact that pops up consistently in relative risk
    studies.

    Zen is apparently the only one posting here who still races. He should
    take comfort in the fact that they found racing to be safer than badminton! >>>

    Probably differs on type of injury�s some folks MTB for example do jumps
    and so on, and so do ride with armour such as back protection/full face
    helmets, my new hydration pack is one of few that doesn�t have a back
    protection built in from that brand.
    If you read the paper, you'll see they surveyed about 3500 people
    repeatedly over a year. That should result in data that represents the
    actual practices of participants during the time they participate in
    each activity. So as with Tom's "descending mountains in the rain at 58
    mph" I suspect the time doing jumps in full face helmets and body armor
    is a small sliver of the total time spent riding bikes. Also note they
    had a separate category for what I call "ordinary" cycling - they called
    it cycling as a "commuting activity" or more accurately, cycling as >transportation, to just get somewhere.

    Propaganda is simply information intended to influence how people
    think. It comes in many forms and is easy to recognize and wise people
    ignore it. On the other hand, Krygowski looks for propaganda that
    supports his opinions, soaks it up like a sponge and then passes it on
    to others.

    --
    C'est bon
    Soloman

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Catrike Ryder@21:1/5 to All on Sun Jun 1 08:06:40 2025
    Part of my motivation is to reduce the likelihood that some naive reader
    will actually believe you. On 1 Jun 2025 10:01:03 GMT, Roger Merriman <[email protected]> wrote:

    Frank Krygowski <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 5/31/2025 4:58 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
    Frank Krygowski <[email protected]> wrote:
    I'm constantly amazed at the "Danger! Danger!" warnings heaped on
    ordinary bicycling. It seems that millions of people "know" that one
    cannot be safe riding a bike unless they wear a very weird styrofoam
    hat; or garish, hi-viz clothing; or run bright lights front and back,
    even in full daylight; or ride only on flat, boring multi-use paths,
    because riding anywhere near motor vehicles can't possibly be safe.


    Yet research comparisons between various activities almost always show >>>> ordinary cycling (i.e. not gonzo off-road downhilling) to be quite safe. >>>> I came across another relevant research paper today: "Active Living and >>>> Injury Risk" by Parkkari, in the International Journal of Sports Medicine. >>>> http://bionics.seas.ucla.edu/education/Rowing/Injury_2004_01.pdf

    Your missing the point that if something feels risky, or isn�t wildly
    comfortable to do, your unlikely to persuade folks to do so particularly if >>> it generally for leisure.

    One way something can "feel" risky is if the person has been subject to
    years of propaganda claiming it's risky. People tend to believe those
    sorts of warnings, true or not. My point is that the warnings typically
    given regarding bicycling are grossly exaggerated, and perhaps purposely
    dishonest.

    Admittedly we don�t have quite the same level of sensational journalism
    that you do, but I think that�s a bit of red herring, I can see it putting >off people trying a bike, but unlikely to alter their perception of which >roads feel safe/pleasant or not.

    As ever roads designed for highspeed motorists are unlikely to be >particularly pleasant places for cycling or any other modes such as walking >and so on.

    They used extensive surveys to evaluate risk of injuries per 1000 hours >>>> of activity in dozens of activities. Here are results for some common
    activities - with lower numbers being better:

    Ordinary (e.g. commuting) bicycling: 0.42 injuries per 1000 hours.
    Walking; 0.19 injuries per 1000 hours
    Gardening: 1.01
    Home Repair: 0.54
    Basketball: 9.1
    Soccer: 7.8
    Tennis: 4.7
    Badminton: 4.6
    Running: 3.6
    Competitive cycling: 2.0
    Dancing: 0.7 injuries per 1000 hours.

    So if you're afraid to ride a bike on a normal road, you should be more >>>> afraid of gardening. (And this is not the only study that found
    gardening to be riskier than cycling!) Also, think twice before going
    dancing, let alone the scary sport of badminton!

    BTW, the paper says "when commuting to shop, office or school it is
    safer to walk rather than ride a bike." I think that's a mistake. Since >>>> whatever shop you're heading for is a fixed distance away, what matters >>>> is the risk per km or per mile, not per hour. Bicycling's per hour risk >>>> was found to be 2.2 times that of walking; but I think almost all
    bicyclists ride faster than 6.6 miles per hour - that is, faster than
    2.2 times the normal walking pace of 3 mph. So per mile, cycling is
    safer than walking, a fact that pops up consistently in relative risk
    studies.

    Zen is apparently the only one posting here who still races. He should >>>> take comfort in the fact that they found racing to be safer than badminton!


    Probably differs on type of injury�s some folks MTB for example do jumps >>> and so on, and so do ride with armour such as back protection/full face
    helmets, my new hydration pack is one of few that doesn�t have a back
    protection built in from that brand.
    If you read the paper, you'll see they surveyed about 3500 people
    repeatedly over a year. That should result in data that represents the
    actual practices of participants during the time they participate in
    each activity. So as with Tom's "descending mountains in the rain at 58
    mph" I suspect the time doing jumps in full face helmets and body armor
    is a small sliver of the total time spent riding bikes. Also note they
    had a separate category for what I call "ordinary" cycling - they called
    it cycling as a "commuting activity" or more accurately, cycling as
    transportation, to just get somewhere.


    Roger Merriman



    Krygowski mistakenly believes that everyone is as susceptible to
    propaganda as he is. I suspect that most people pay no attention to
    propaganda about bike helmets or riding on streets and simply decide
    for themselves about such things.

    --
    C'est bon
    Soloman

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  • From Catrike Ryder@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Sun Jun 1 12:06:09 2025
    On Sun, 1 Jun 2025 11:31:42 -0400, Frank Krygowski
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 5/31/2025 11:40 PM, cyclintom wrote:
    On Sat May 31 20:26:51 2025 Frank Krygowski wrote:
    On 5/31/2025 3:56 PM, cyclintom wrote:
    On Fri May 30 20:43:02 2025 Frank Krygowski wrote:

    Zen is apparently the only one posting here who still races. He should >>>>> take comfort in the fact that they found racing to be safer than badminton!

    And you don't find those numbers peculiar? What injuries are sustained in badmitten as opposed to riding down mountain passes in the rain at 50 mph?

    Well, Tom, the data I cited was injuries per 1000 hours activity for all >>> the hours spent doing that activity. The bicycling data was for all
    hours riding bikes. What percentage of _your_ bicycling time is spent
    descending mountain passes in the rain at 58 mph? For most riders, the
    answer is zero - meaning your oh-so-scary fantasy is just a fantasy. IOW >>> you're one of those avid cyclists who revel in "Danger! Danger!"
    warnings about your favorite sport. That's just weird.

    And what kind of injuries in badminton? (Or "badmitten" [sic])

    I think badminton is vaguely similar to pickleball, which the survey
    doesn't mention. Many of my club mates have taken up pickleball. As club >>> safety chairman, I've noted we could use a separate pickleball safety
    chairman, because it's producing FAR more injuries than bicycling,
    despite club members accumulating much more time on bikes.

    Pickleball injuries I've heard of are severe back injuries (one guy is
    almost unable to walk weeks after that injury), double broken wrists,
    twisted knees, sprained ankles, mild head injuries, various abrasions
    and bruises and more. Most of those seem to be a result of falls, but
    some are just due to the sudden motions of lunging for the ball. I
    suppose it would be similar for badminton, but I'm not involved in
    either sport.

    BTW, Tom, if you disagree with the data, you should dig up better data.
    Nobody here has respect for your WAGs.




    I understand that you being a teacher and all makes you believe that you have access to all of the world's data. But exactly what makes you think that?

    Not all the world's data. But I think I have better than average skill
    at locating data regarding my areas of interest. I've certainly done
    better than you! Maybe if you ever returned to those libraries you
    claimed to have "read out" you could improve!

    Let's note that I frequently post links or citations for my data
    sources. You almost never do. Really, your so-called "memory" is not a
    valid source.

    What is and injury and how does it become reported as such?

    injury /?n?j?-r?/ noun
    Damage or harm done to or suffered by a person or thing.
    "escaped from the accident without injury; a scandal that did
    considerable injury to the campaign."
    A particular form of hurt, damage, or loss.
    "a leg injury."...

    The American Heritage� Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition

    See? That wasn't hard! ;-)


    One of the necessities of being a teacher is the ability to totally turn
    off that part of your mind that has the least skepticism.

    Bullshit. I'm terrifically skeptical of anything you ever post! As a
    matter of fact, if you post something, I assume it's wrong.

    As a matter of fact, if krygowski posts something, I assume it's
    either a lie, or useless.

    --
    C'est bon
    Soloman

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Catrike Ryder@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Sun Jun 1 14:09:14 2025
    On Sun, 1 Jun 2025 14:04:39 -0400, Frank Krygowski
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 6/1/2025 12:06 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
    On Sun, 1 Jun 2025 11:31:42 -0400, Frank Krygowski
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 5/31/2025 11:40 PM, cyclintom wrote:
    On Sat May 31 20:26:51 2025 Frank Krygowski wrote:
    On 5/31/2025 3:56 PM, cyclintom wrote:
    On Fri May 30 20:43:02 2025 Frank Krygowski wrote:

    Zen is apparently the only one posting here who still races. He should >>>>>>> take comfort in the fact that they found racing to be safer than badminton!

    And you don't find those numbers peculiar? What injuries are sustained in badmitten as opposed to riding down mountain passes in the rain at 50 mph?

    Well, Tom, the data I cited was injuries per 1000 hours activity for all >>>>> the hours spent doing that activity. The bicycling data was for all
    hours riding bikes. What percentage of _your_ bicycling time is spent >>>>> descending mountain passes in the rain at 58 mph? For most riders, the >>>>> answer is zero - meaning your oh-so-scary fantasy is just a fantasy. IOW >>>>> you're one of those avid cyclists who revel in "Danger! Danger!"
    warnings about your favorite sport. That's just weird.

    And what kind of injuries in badminton? (Or "badmitten" [sic])

    I think badminton is vaguely similar to pickleball, which the survey >>>>> doesn't mention. Many of my club mates have taken up pickleball. As club >>>>> safety chairman, I've noted we could use a separate pickleball safety >>>>> chairman, because it's producing FAR more injuries than bicycling,
    despite club members accumulating much more time on bikes.

    Pickleball injuries I've heard of are severe back injuries (one guy is >>>>> almost unable to walk weeks after that injury), double broken wrists, >>>>> twisted knees, sprained ankles, mild head injuries, various abrasions >>>>> and bruises and more. Most of those seem to be a result of falls, but >>>>> some are just due to the sudden motions of lunging for the ball. I
    suppose it would be similar for badminton, but I'm not involved in
    either sport.

    BTW, Tom, if you disagree with the data, you should dig up better data. >>>>> Nobody here has respect for your WAGs.




    I understand that you being a teacher and all makes you believe that you have access to all of the world's data. But exactly what makes you think that?

    Not all the world's data. But I think I have better than average skill
    at locating data regarding my areas of interest. I've certainly done
    better than you! Maybe if you ever returned to those libraries you
    claimed to have "read out" you could improve!

    Let's note that I frequently post links or citations for my data
    sources. You almost never do. Really, your so-called "memory" is not a
    valid source.

    What is and injury and how does it become reported as such?

    injury /?n?j?-r?/ noun
    Damage or harm done to or suffered by a person or thing.
    "escaped from the accident without injury; a scandal that did
    considerable injury to the campaign."
    A particular form of hurt, damage, or loss.
    "a leg injury."...

    The American Heritage� Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition

    See? That wasn't hard! ;-)


    One of the necessities of being a teacher is the ability to totally turn >>> off that part of your mind that has the least skepticism.

    Bullshit. I'm terrifically skeptical of anything you ever post! As a
    matter of fact, if you post something, I assume it's wrong.

    As a matter of fact, if krygowski posts something, I assume it's
    either a lie, or useless.
    :-) And when I post something, I assume our feeble tricyclist will soon >snark about it. I'm right roughly nine times out of ten.

    It gives his boring life some meaning! ;-)

    Krygowski proves my point... as he often does.

    --
    C'est bon
    Soloman

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From zen cycle@21:1/5 to All on Tue Jun 3 06:12:52 2025
    On 6/1/2025 12:06 PM, floriduh dumbass wrote:
    On Sun, 1 Jun 2025 11:31:42 -0400, Frank Krygowski
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 5/31/2025 11:40 PM, cyclintom wrote:
    On Sat May 31 20:26:51 2025 Frank Krygowski  wrote:
    On 5/31/2025 3:56 PM, cyclintom wrote:
    On Fri May 30 20:43:02 2025 Frank Krygowski  wrote:

    Zen is apparently the only one posting here who still races. He
    should
    take comfort in the fact that they found racing to be safer than >>>>>>> badminton!

    And you don't find those numbers peculiar? What injuries are
    sustained in badmitten as opposed to riding down mountain passes
    in the rain at 50 mph?

    Well, Tom, the data I cited was injuries per 1000 hours activity
    for all
    the hours spent doing that activity. The bicycling data was for all
    hours riding bikes. What percentage of _your_ bicycling time is spent >>>>> descending mountain passes in the rain at 58 mph? For most riders, the >>>>> answer is zero - meaning your oh-so-scary fantasy is just a
    fantasy. IOW
    you're one of those avid cyclists who revel in "Danger! Danger!"
    warnings about your favorite sport. That's just weird.

    And what kind of injuries in badminton? (Or "badmitten" [sic])

    I think badminton is vaguely similar to pickleball, which the survey >>>>> doesn't mention. Many of my club mates have taken up pickleball. As
    club
    safety chairman, I've noted we could use a separate pickleball safety >>>>> chairman, because it's producing FAR more injuries than bicycling,
    despite club members accumulating much more time on bikes.

    Pickleball injuries I've heard of are severe back injuries (one guy is >>>>> almost unable to walk weeks after that injury), double broken wrists, >>>>> twisted knees, sprained ankles, mild head injuries, various abrasions >>>>> and bruises and more. Most of those seem to be a result of falls, but >>>>> some are just due to the sudden motions of lunging for the ball. I
    suppose it would be similar for badminton, but I'm not involved in
    either sport.

    BTW, Tom, if you disagree with the data, you should dig up better
    data.
    Nobody here has respect for your WAGs.




    I understand that you being a teacher and all makes you believe that
    you have access to all of the world's data. But exactly what makes
    you think that?

    Not all the world's data. But I think I have better than average skill
    at locating data regarding my areas of interest. I've certainly done
    better than you! Maybe if you ever returned to those libraries you
    claimed to have "read out" you could improve!

    Let's note that I frequently post links or citations for my data
    sources. You almost never do. Really, your so-called "memory" is not a
    valid source.

    What is and injury and how does it become reported as such?

    injury /?n?j?-r?/ noun
         Damage or harm done to or suffered by a person or thing.
         "escaped from the accident without injury; a scandal that did
    considerable injury to the campaign."
         A particular form of hurt, damage, or loss.
         "a leg injury."...

    The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition

    See? That wasn't hard!   ;-)


    One of the necessities of being a teacher is the ability to totally turn >>> off that part of your mind that has the least skepticism.

    Bullshit. I'm terrifically skeptical of anything you ever post! As a
    matter of fact, if you post something, I assume it's wrong.

    As a matter of fact, if krygowski posts something, I assume it's
    either a lie, or useless.

    That's becasue you're a willfully ignorant dumbass who's unwilling to
    look up anything that isn't spoon fed to you by your magatard echo chamber.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Catrike Ryder@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Tue Jun 3 07:55:07 2025
    On Tue, 3 Jun 2025 06:12:52 -0400, zen cycle
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 6/1/2025 12:06 PM, floriduh dumbass wrote:
    On Sun, 1 Jun 2025 11:31:42 -0400, Frank Krygowski
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 5/31/2025 11:40 PM, cyclintom wrote:
    On Sat May 31 20:26:51 2025 Frank Krygowski� wrote:
    On 5/31/2025 3:56 PM, cyclintom wrote:
    On Fri May 30 20:43:02 2025 Frank Krygowski� wrote:

    Zen is apparently the only one posting here who still races. He >>>>>>>> should
    take comfort in the fact that they found racing to be safer than >>>>>>>> badminton!

    And you don't find those numbers peculiar? What injuries are
    sustained in badmitten as opposed to riding down mountain passes >>>>>>> in the rain at 50 mph?

    Well, Tom, the data I cited was injuries per 1000 hours activity
    for all
    the hours spent doing that activity. The bicycling data was for all >>>>>> hours riding bikes. What percentage of _your_ bicycling time is spent >>>>>> descending mountain passes in the rain at 58 mph? For most riders, the >>>>>> answer is zero - meaning your oh-so-scary fantasy is just a
    fantasy. IOW
    you're one of those avid cyclists who revel in "Danger! Danger!"
    warnings about your favorite sport. That's just weird.

    And what kind of injuries in badminton? (Or "badmitten" [sic])

    I think badminton is vaguely similar to pickleball, which the survey >>>>>> doesn't mention. Many of my club mates have taken up pickleball. As >>>>>> club
    safety chairman, I've noted we could use a separate pickleball safety >>>>>> chairman, because it's producing FAR more injuries than bicycling, >>>>>> despite club members accumulating much more time on bikes.

    Pickleball injuries I've heard of are severe back injuries (one guy is >>>>>> almost unable to walk weeks after that injury), double broken wrists, >>>>>> twisted knees, sprained ankles, mild head injuries, various abrasions >>>>>> and bruises and more. Most of those seem to be a result of falls, but >>>>>> some are just due to the sudden motions of lunging for the ball. I >>>>>> suppose it would be similar for badminton, but I'm not involved in >>>>>> either sport.

    BTW, Tom, if you disagree with the data, you should dig up better
    data.
    Nobody here has respect for your WAGs.




    I understand that you being a teacher and all makes you believe that >>>>> you have access to all of the world's data. But exactly what makes
    you think that?

    Not all the world's data. But I think I have better than average skill >>>> at locating data regarding my areas of interest. I've certainly done
    better than you! Maybe if you ever returned to those libraries you
    claimed to have "read out" you could improve!

    Let's note that I frequently post links or citations for my data
    sources. You almost never do. Really, your so-called "memory" is not a >>>> valid source.

    What is and injury and how does it become reported as such?

    injury /?n?j?-r?/ noun
    ���� Damage or harm done to or suffered by a person or thing.
    ���� "escaped from the accident without injury; a scandal that did
    considerable injury to the campaign."
    ���� A particular form of hurt, damage, or loss.
    ���� "a leg injury."...

    The American Heritage� Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition >>>>
    See? That wasn't hard!�� ;-)


    One of the necessities of being a teacher is the ability to totally turn >>>> off that part of your mind that has the least skepticism.

    Bullshit. I'm terrifically skeptical of anything you ever post! As a
    matter of fact, if you post something, I assume it's wrong.

    As a matter of fact, if krygowski posts something, I assume it's
    either a lie, or useless.

    That's becasue you're a willfully ignorant dumbass who's unwilling to
    look up anything that isn't spoon fed to you by your magatard echo chamber.

    NO, it's because most of what Krygoeski has posted is either a lie, or
    useless.

    --
    C'est bon
    Soloman

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)