... but he doesn't know why, so I will do some OLCsplaining for him.because the rules for distance portion (OLC Classic) and the triangle portion of the OLC score (officially the "OLC-Plus" score) required a maximum of 1000M height between the start and endpoints.
He claims some pilots (motorglider pilots, of course) are taking unfair advantage by climbing waaay up into the sky, so they have all that "unearned" altitude to make distance and improve their OLC score. Prior to the 2022 season, that wasn't possible,
That changed for the 2022 season, when they added another bonus to the OLC-Plus score called "OLC-Distance Course". That's measured from the start of soaring (tow release or engine stopped) to the flight point that is the farthest away, without anyconsideration of the height difference. For points, that distance is handicapped as usual, and a fraction of it is added to the OLC-Plus score, just like the FAI triangle bonus.
So, Bob is right that you can increase your (OLC-Plus) score by a high start, but he's wrong that it's unfair: it's in the rules and available to every pilot, whether towed or self-launched. As towplane owner, he should be delighted at this incentivefor glider pilots to take high tows!
... but he doesn't know why, so I will do some OLCsplaining for him.because the rules for distance portion (OLC Classic) and the triangle portion of the OLC score (officially the "OLC-Plus" score) required a maximum of 1000M height between the start and endpoints.
He claims some pilots (motorglider pilots, of course) are taking unfair advantage by climbing waaay up into the sky, so they have all that "unearned" altitude to make distance and improve their OLC score. Prior to the 2022 season, that wasn't possible,
That changed for the 2022 season, when they added another bonus to the OLC-Plus score called "OLC-Distance Course". That's measured from the start of soaring (tow release or engine stopped) to the flight point that is the farthest away, without anyconsideration of the height difference. For points, that distance is handicapped as usual, and a fraction of it is added to the OLC-Plus score, just like the FAI triangle bonus.
So, Bob is right that you can increase your (OLC-Plus) score by a high start, but he's wrong that it's unfair: it's in the rules and available to every pilot, whether towed or self-launched. As towplane owner, he should be delighted at this incentivefor glider pilots to take high tows!
On Friday, June 2, 2023 at 11:15:40 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:possible, because the rules for distance portion (OLC Classic) and the triangle portion of the OLC score (officially the "OLC-Plus" score) required a maximum of 1000M height between the start and endpoints.
... but he doesn't know why, so I will do some OLCsplaining for him.
He claims some pilots (motorglider pilots, of course) are taking unfair advantage by climbing waaay up into the sky, so they have all that "unearned" altitude to make distance and improve their OLC score. Prior to the 2022 season, that wasn't
consideration of the height difference. For points, that distance is handicapped as usual, and a fraction of it is added to the OLC-Plus score, just like the FAI triangle bonus.That changed for the 2022 season, when they added another bonus to the OLC-Plus score called "OLC-Distance Course". That's measured from the start of soaring (tow release or engine stopped) to the flight point that is the farthest away, without any
for glider pilots to take high tows!So, Bob is right that you can increase your (OLC-Plus) score by a high start, but he's wrong that it's unfair: it's in the rules and available to every pilot, whether towed or self-launched. As towplane owner, he should be delighted at this incentive
Seem like the WOKE WORLD of MOTORGLIDING is eating a bit of humble pie. Greenie, I tried to explain to you in the very beginning that the score reflected on the graph at the release altitude and you came back with some kind of engineering excusesomething similar to what my engineer PE son would say. Us PURIST don't' take motorglider height tows, as I stated before I would be embarrassed to record such a flight. No need for any OLCsplaining, it was a teachable moment for me, you are certainly
On Friday, June 2, 2023 at 12:55:36 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:possible, because the rules for distance portion (OLC Classic) and the triangle portion of the OLC score (officially the "OLC-Plus" score) required a maximum of 1000M height between the start and endpoints.
On Friday, June 2, 2023 at 11:15:40 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
... but he doesn't know why, so I will do some OLCsplaining for him.
He claims some pilots (motorglider pilots, of course) are taking unfair advantage by climbing waaay up into the sky, so they have all that "unearned" altitude to make distance and improve their OLC score. Prior to the 2022 season, that wasn't
consideration of the height difference. For points, that distance is handicapped as usual, and a fraction of it is added to the OLC-Plus score, just like the FAI triangle bonus.That changed for the 2022 season, when they added another bonus to the OLC-Plus score called "OLC-Distance Course". That's measured from the start of soaring (tow release or engine stopped) to the flight point that is the farthest away, without any
incentive for glider pilots to take high tows!So, Bob is right that you can increase your (OLC-Plus) score by a high start, but he's wrong that it's unfair: it's in the rules and available to every pilot, whether towed or self-launched. As towplane owner, he should be delighted at this
something similar to what my engineer PE son would say. Us PURIST don't' take motorglider height tows, as I stated before I would be embarrassed to record such a flight. No need for any OLCsplaining, it was a teachable moment for me, you are certainlySeem like the WOKE WORLD of MOTORGLIDING is eating a bit of humble pie. Greenie, I tried to explain to you in the very beginning that the score reflected on the graph at the release altitude and you came back with some kind of engineering excuse
Hey Booby, what height DO you tow to, ten feet? I will bet it is, at least, 2k ft. Some towheads will get off lower because they don't want to pay your exorbitant tow fees, but we MG pilots only consume another quart of fuel to get another 1k ft (abouta buck and a half), so why not?
Tom 2GTommy The Tyrant, I usually to to 2k but have been known to get off at 600 feet, why not, and I still pay the 2Ktow fee, I am not a cheap MG guy. I even still do a high speed pass at say 5 feet and pull up , catch a thermal and go like hell once again.
On Friday, June 2, 2023 at 5:18:39 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:possible, because the rules for distance portion (OLC Classic) and the triangle portion of the OLC score (officially the "OLC-Plus" score) required a maximum of 1000M height between the start and endpoints.
On Friday, June 2, 2023 at 12:55:36 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Friday, June 2, 2023 at 11:15:40 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
... but he doesn't know why, so I will do some OLCsplaining for him.
He claims some pilots (motorglider pilots, of course) are taking unfair advantage by climbing waaay up into the sky, so they have all that "unearned" altitude to make distance and improve their OLC score. Prior to the 2022 season, that wasn't
any consideration of the height difference. For points, that distance is handicapped as usual, and a fraction of it is added to the OLC-Plus score, just like the FAI triangle bonus.That changed for the 2022 season, when they added another bonus to the OLC-Plus score called "OLC-Distance Course". That's measured from the start of soaring (tow release or engine stopped) to the flight point that is the farthest away, without
incentive for glider pilots to take high tows!So, Bob is right that you can increase your (OLC-Plus) score by a high start, but he's wrong that it's unfair: it's in the rules and available to every pilot, whether towed or self-launched. As towplane owner, he should be delighted at this
something similar to what my engineer PE son would say. Us PURIST don't' take motorglider height tows, as I stated before I would be embarrassed to record such a flight. No need for any OLCsplaining, it was a teachable moment for me, you are certainlySeem like the WOKE WORLD of MOTORGLIDING is eating a bit of humble pie. Greenie, I tried to explain to you in the very beginning that the score reflected on the graph at the release altitude and you came back with some kind of engineering excuse
about a buck and a half), so why not?Hey Booby, what height DO you tow to, ten feet? I will bet it is, at least, 2k ft. Some towheads will get off lower because they don't want to pay your exorbitant tow fees, but we MG pilots only consume another quart of fuel to get another 1k ft (
If you take a hard look you can see it on OLC. OBTP, your mentorTom 2GTommy The Tyrant, I usually to to 2k but have been known to get off at 600 feet, why not, and I still pay the 2Ktow fee, I am not a cheap MG guy. I even still do a high speed pass at say 5 feet and pull up , catch a thermal and go like hell once again.
On Friday, June 2, 2023 at 3:07:12 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:possible, because the rules for distance portion (OLC Classic) and the triangle portion of the OLC score (officially the "OLC-Plus" score) required a maximum of 1000M height between the start and endpoints.
On Friday, June 2, 2023 at 5:18:39 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
On Friday, June 2, 2023 at 12:55:36 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Friday, June 2, 2023 at 11:15:40 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
... but he doesn't know why, so I will do some OLCsplaining for him.
He claims some pilots (motorglider pilots, of course) are taking unfair advantage by climbing waaay up into the sky, so they have all that "unearned" altitude to make distance and improve their OLC score. Prior to the 2022 season, that wasn't
any consideration of the height difference. For points, that distance is handicapped as usual, and a fraction of it is added to the OLC-Plus score, just like the FAI triangle bonus.That changed for the 2022 season, when they added another bonus to the OLC-Plus score called "OLC-Distance Course". That's measured from the start of soaring (tow release or engine stopped) to the flight point that is the farthest away, without
incentive for glider pilots to take high tows!So, Bob is right that you can increase your (OLC-Plus) score by a high start, but he's wrong that it's unfair: it's in the rules and available to every pilot, whether towed or self-launched. As towplane owner, he should be delighted at this
something similar to what my engineer PE son would say. Us PURIST don't' take motorglider height tows, as I stated before I would be embarrassed to record such a flight. No need for any OLCsplaining, it was a teachable moment for me, you are certainlySeem like the WOKE WORLD of MOTORGLIDING is eating a bit of humble pie. Greenie, I tried to explain to you in the very beginning that the score reflected on the graph at the release altitude and you came back with some kind of engineering excuse
about a buck and a half), so why not?Hey Booby, what height DO you tow to, ten feet? I will bet it is, at least, 2k ft. Some towheads will get off lower because they don't want to pay your exorbitant tow fees, but we MG pilots only consume another quart of fuel to get another 1k ft (
again. If you take a hard look you can see it on OLC. OBTP, your mentorTom 2GTommy The Tyrant, I usually to to 2k but have been known to get off at 600 feet, why not, and I still pay the 2Ktow fee, I am not a cheap MG guy. I even still do a high speed pass at say 5 feet and pull up , catch a thermal and go like hell once
Yeah, right, Booby. A high-speed, low pass is a DUMB, STUPID maneuver which smart pilots avoid like the plague. But you are not smart, so I am not surprised. And you did not say WHAT you tow fees are, so I was right in saying they are exorbitant. BTW,I have NEVER met a MG pilot who said the primary motivation in buying a MG was to save on tow fees - not a SINGLE ONE!
Tom 2GAre you joking? High speed passes are awesome! Nothing like the sound of it. That’s of course if you don’t have your motor out. Then it’s more of a lawnmower sound….
On Friday, June 2, 2023 at 11:15:40 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:possible, because the rules for distance portion (OLC Classic) and the triangle portion of the OLC score (officially the "OLC-Plus" score) required a maximum of 1000M height between the start and endpoints.
... but he doesn't know why, so I will do some OLCsplaining for him.
He claims some pilots (motorglider pilots, of course) are taking unfair advantage by climbing waaay up into the sky, so they have all that "unearned" altitude to make distance and improve their OLC score. Prior to the 2022 season, that wasn't
consideration of the height difference. For points, that distance is handicapped as usual, and a fraction of it is added to the OLC-Plus score, just like the FAI triangle bonus.That changed for the 2022 season, when they added another bonus to the OLC-Plus score called "OLC-Distance Course". That's measured from the start of soaring (tow release or engine stopped) to the flight point that is the farthest away, without any
for glider pilots to take high tows!So, Bob is right that you can increase your (OLC-Plus) score by a high start, but he's wrong that it's unfair: it's in the rules and available to every pilot, whether towed or self-launched. As towplane owner, he should be delighted at this incentive
Seem like the WOKE WORLD of MOTORGLIDING is eating a bit of humble pie. Greenie, I tried to explain to you in the very beginning that the score reflected on the graph at the release altitude and you came back with some kind of engineering excusesomething similar to what my engineer PE son would say. Us PURIST don't' take motorglider height tows, as I stated before I would be embarrassed to record such a flight. No need for any OLCsplaining, it was a teachable moment for me, you are certainly
So... All I need to do now is get ATC on board to let me self launch to 33,000 feet and perform a 50:1 dead glide to a bit over 500 km. Ofpossible, because the rules for distance portion (OLC Classic) and the triangle portion of the OLC score (officially the "OLC-Plus" score) required a maximum of 1000M height between the start and endpoints.
course, I might get a bump or two along the way. Is that unfair since
Bob's tug can't pull him that high?
Dan
5J
On 6/2/23 09:15, Eric Greenwell wrote:
... but he doesn't know why, so I will do some OLCsplaining for him.
He claims some pilots (motorglider pilots, of course) are taking unfair advantage by climbing waaay up into the sky, so they have all that "unearned" altitude to make distance and improve their OLC score. Prior to the 2022 season, that wasn't
consideration of the height difference. For points, that distance is handicapped as usual, and a fraction of it is added to the OLC-Plus score, just like the FAI triangle bonus.That changed for the 2022 season, when they added another bonus to the OLC-Plus score called "OLC-Distance Course". That's measured from the start of soaring (tow release or engine stopped) to the flight point that is the farthest away, without any
for glider pilots to take high tows!So, Bob is right that you can increase your (OLC-Plus) score by a high start, but he's wrong that it's unfair: it's in the rules and available to every pilot, whether towed or self-launched. As towplane owner, he should be delighted at this incentive
On Friday, June 2, 2023 at 11:15:40 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:possible, because the rules for distance portion (OLC Classic) and the triangle portion of the OLC score (officially the "OLC-Plus" score) required a maximum of 1000M height between the start and endpoints.
... but he doesn't know why, so I will do some OLCsplaining for him.
He claims some pilots (motorglider pilots, of course) are taking unfair advantage by climbing waaay up into the sky, so they have all that "unearned" altitude to make distance and improve their OLC score. Prior to the 2022 season, that wasn't
consideration of the height difference. For points, that distance is handicapped as usual, and a fraction of it is added to the OLC-Plus score, just like the FAI triangle bonus.That changed for the 2022 season, when they added another bonus to the OLC-Plus score called "OLC-Distance Course". That's measured from the start of soaring (tow release or engine stopped) to the flight point that is the farthest away, without any
for glider pilots to take high tows!So, Bob is right that you can increase your (OLC-Plus) score by a high start, but he's wrong that it's unfair: it's in the rules and available to every pilot, whether towed or self-launched. As towplane owner, he should be delighted at this incentive
Seem like the WOKE WORLD of MOTORGLIDING is eating a bit of humble pie. Greenie, I tried to explain to you in the very beginning that the score reflected on the graph at the release altitude and you came back with some kind of engineering excusesomething similar to what my engineer PE son would say. Us PURIST don't' take motorglider height tows, as I stated before I would be embarrassed to record such a flight. No need for any OLCsplaining, it was a teachable moment for me, you are certainly
On Friday, June 2, 2023 at 12:55:36 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:possible, because the rules for distance portion (OLC Classic) and the triangle portion of the OLC score (officially the "OLC-Plus" score) required a maximum of 1000M height between the start and endpoints.
On Friday, June 2, 2023 at 11:15:40 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
... but he doesn't know why, so I will do some OLCsplaining for him.
He claims some pilots (motorglider pilots, of course) are taking unfair advantage by climbing waaay up into the sky, so they have all that "unearned" altitude to make distance and improve their OLC score. Prior to the 2022 season, that wasn't
consideration of the height difference. For points, that distance is handicapped as usual, and a fraction of it is added to the OLC-Plus score, just like the FAI triangle bonus.That changed for the 2022 season, when they added another bonus to the OLC-Plus score called "OLC-Distance Course". That's measured from the start of soaring (tow release or engine stopped) to the flight point that is the farthest away, without any
incentive for glider pilots to take high tows!So, Bob is right that you can increase your (OLC-Plus) score by a high start, but he's wrong that it's unfair: it's in the rules and available to every pilot, whether towed or self-launched. As towplane owner, he should be delighted at this
something similar to what my engineer PE son would say. Us PURIST don't' take motorglider height tows, as I stated before I would be embarrassed to record such a flight. No need for any OLCsplaining, it was a teachable moment for me, you are certainlySeem like the WOKE WORLD of MOTORGLIDING is eating a bit of humble pie. Greenie, I tried to explain to you in the very beginning that the score reflected on the graph at the release altitude and you came back with some kind of engineering excuse
There is an interesting variation in typical launch heights between the different types of motorgliders and their pilots. Some will take the usual 2000 AGL launch, knowing they can easily restart if needed; some will take an extra 1000' or so, becauseit's really cheap and easy to do; and FES pilots will often putter around at 1000'-1500' AGL until they find a thermal, to maximize their remaining battery capacity.
What is the highest you are willing to tow someone?
On Saturday, June 3, 2023 at 11:19:28 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:possible, because the rules for distance portion (OLC Classic) and the triangle portion of the OLC score (officially the "OLC-Plus" score) required a maximum of 1000M height between the start and endpoints.
On Friday, June 2, 2023 at 12:55:36 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Friday, June 2, 2023 at 11:15:40 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
... but he doesn't know why, so I will do some OLCsplaining for him.
He claims some pilots (motorglider pilots, of course) are taking unfair advantage by climbing waaay up into the sky, so they have all that "unearned" altitude to make distance and improve their OLC score. Prior to the 2022 season, that wasn't
any consideration of the height difference. For points, that distance is handicapped as usual, and a fraction of it is added to the OLC-Plus score, just like the FAI triangle bonus.That changed for the 2022 season, when they added another bonus to the OLC-Plus score called "OLC-Distance Course". That's measured from the start of soaring (tow release or engine stopped) to the flight point that is the farthest away, without
incentive for glider pilots to take high tows!So, Bob is right that you can increase your (OLC-Plus) score by a high start, but he's wrong that it's unfair: it's in the rules and available to every pilot, whether towed or self-launched. As towplane owner, he should be delighted at this
something similar to what my engineer PE son would say. Us PURIST don't' take motorglider height tows, as I stated before I would be embarrassed to record such a flight. No need for any OLCsplaining, it was a teachable moment for me, you are certainlySeem like the WOKE WORLD of MOTORGLIDING is eating a bit of humble pie. Greenie, I tried to explain to you in the very beginning that the score reflected on the graph at the release altitude and you came back with some kind of engineering excuse
because it's really cheap and easy to do; and FES pilots will often putter around at 1000'-1500' AGL until they find a thermal, to maximize their remaining battery capacity.There is an interesting variation in typical launch heights between the different types of motorgliders and their pilots. Some will take the usual 2000 AGL launch, knowing they can easily restart if needed; some will take an extra 1000' or so,
What used to amaze me when I was towing was that some guys (KZ) would get off in a popcorn fart just off the end of the runway, climb up and be gone for the afternoon. Others on the same day would take a 2K or 3K tow and be back before the tow plane.
Walt Connelly
On Friday, June 2, 2023 at 5:31:25 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:possible, because the rules for distance portion (OLC Classic) and the triangle portion of the OLC score (officially the "OLC-Plus" score) required a maximum of 1000M height between the start and endpoints.
On Friday, June 2, 2023 at 3:07:12 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Friday, June 2, 2023 at 5:18:39 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
On Friday, June 2, 2023 at 12:55:36 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Friday, June 2, 2023 at 11:15:40 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
... but he doesn't know why, so I will do some OLCsplaining for him.
He claims some pilots (motorglider pilots, of course) are taking unfair advantage by climbing waaay up into the sky, so they have all that "unearned" altitude to make distance and improve their OLC score. Prior to the 2022 season, that wasn't
without any consideration of the height difference. For points, that distance is handicapped as usual, and a fraction of it is added to the OLC-Plus score, just like the FAI triangle bonus.That changed for the 2022 season, when they added another bonus to the OLC-Plus score called "OLC-Distance Course". That's measured from the start of soaring (tow release or engine stopped) to the flight point that is the farthest away,
incentive for glider pilots to take high tows!So, Bob is right that you can increase your (OLC-Plus) score by a high start, but he's wrong that it's unfair: it's in the rules and available to every pilot, whether towed or self-launched. As towplane owner, he should be delighted at this
excuse something similar to what my engineer PE son would say. Us PURIST don't' take motorglider height tows, as I stated before I would be embarrassed to record such a flight. No need for any OLCsplaining, it was a teachable moment for me, you areSeem like the WOKE WORLD of MOTORGLIDING is eating a bit of humble pie. Greenie, I tried to explain to you in the very beginning that the score reflected on the graph at the release altitude and you came back with some kind of engineering
about a buck and a half), so why not?Hey Booby, what height DO you tow to, ten feet? I will bet it is, at least, 2k ft. Some towheads will get off lower because they don't want to pay your exorbitant tow fees, but we MG pilots only consume another quart of fuel to get another 1k ft (
again. If you take a hard look you can see it on OLC. OBTP, your mentorTom 2GTommy The Tyrant, I usually to to 2k but have been known to get off at 600 feet, why not, and I still pay the 2Ktow fee, I am not a cheap MG guy. I even still do a high speed pass at say 5 feet and pull up , catch a thermal and go like hell once
I have NEVER met a MG pilot who said the primary motivation in buying a MG was to save on tow fees - not a SINGLE ONE!Yeah, right, Booby. A high-speed, low pass is a DUMB, STUPID maneuver which smart pilots avoid like the plague. But you are not smart, so I am not surprised. And you did not say WHAT you tow fees are, so I was right in saying they are exorbitant. BTW,
Tom 2GAre you joking? High speed passes are awesome! Nothing like the sound of it. That’s of course if you don’t have your motor out. Then it’s more of a lawnmower sound….
ES
On Friday, June 2, 2023 at 12:55:36 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:possible, because the rules for distance portion (OLC Classic) and the triangle portion of the OLC score (officially the "OLC-Plus" score) required a maximum of 1000M height between the start and endpoints.
On Friday, June 2, 2023 at 11:15:40 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
... but he doesn't know why, so I will do some OLCsplaining for him.
He claims some pilots (motorglider pilots, of course) are taking unfair advantage by climbing waaay up into the sky, so they have all that "unearned" altitude to make distance and improve their OLC score. Prior to the 2022 season, that wasn't
consideration of the height difference. For points, that distance is handicapped as usual, and a fraction of it is added to the OLC-Plus score, just like the FAI triangle bonus.That changed for the 2022 season, when they added another bonus to the OLC-Plus score called "OLC-Distance Course". That's measured from the start of soaring (tow release or engine stopped) to the flight point that is the farthest away, without any
incentive for glider pilots to take high tows!So, Bob is right that you can increase your (OLC-Plus) score by a high start, but he's wrong that it's unfair: it's in the rules and available to every pilot, whether towed or self-launched. As towplane owner, he should be delighted at this
something similar to what my engineer PE son would say. Us PURIST don't' take motorglider height tows, as I stated before I would be embarrassed to record such a flight. No need for any OLCsplaining, it was a teachable moment for me, you are certainlySeem like the WOKE WORLD of MOTORGLIDING is eating a bit of humble pie. Greenie, I tried to explain to you in the very beginning that the score reflected on the graph at the release altitude and you came back with some kind of engineering excuse
There is an interesting variation in typical launch heights between the different types of motorgliders and their pilots. Some will take the usual 2000 AGL launch, knowing they can easily restart if needed; some will take an extra 1000' or so, becauseit's really cheap and easy to do; and FES pilots will often putter around at 1000'-1500' AGL until they find a thermal, to maximize their remaining battery capacity.
On Saturday, June 3, 2023 at 8:19:28 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:possible, because the rules for distance portion (OLC Classic) and the triangle portion of the OLC score (officially the "OLC-Plus" score) required a maximum of 1000M height between the start and endpoints.
On Friday, June 2, 2023 at 12:55:36 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Friday, June 2, 2023 at 11:15:40 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
... but he doesn't know why, so I will do some OLCsplaining for him.
He claims some pilots (motorglider pilots, of course) are taking unfair advantage by climbing waaay up into the sky, so they have all that "unearned" altitude to make distance and improve their OLC score. Prior to the 2022 season, that wasn't
any consideration of the height difference. For points, that distance is handicapped as usual, and a fraction of it is added to the OLC-Plus score, just like the FAI triangle bonus.That changed for the 2022 season, when they added another bonus to the OLC-Plus score called "OLC-Distance Course". That's measured from the start of soaring (tow release or engine stopped) to the flight point that is the farthest away, without
incentive for glider pilots to take high tows!So, Bob is right that you can increase your (OLC-Plus) score by a high start, but he's wrong that it's unfair: it's in the rules and available to every pilot, whether towed or self-launched. As towplane owner, he should be delighted at this
something similar to what my engineer PE son would say. Us PURIST don't' take motorglider height tows, as I stated before I would be embarrassed to record such a flight. No need for any OLCsplaining, it was a teachable moment for me, you are certainlySeem like the WOKE WORLD of MOTORGLIDING is eating a bit of humble pie. Greenie, I tried to explain to you in the very beginning that the score reflected on the graph at the release altitude and you came back with some kind of engineering excuse
because it's really cheap and easy to do; and FES pilots will often putter around at 1000'-1500' AGL until they find a thermal, to maximize their remaining battery capacity.There is an interesting variation in typical launch heights between the different types of motorgliders and their pilots. Some will take the usual 2000 AGL launch, knowing they can easily restart if needed; some will take an extra 1000' or so,
FES pilots have "range anxiety" and often take tows to maximize retrieve range. My goal while launching is to get on course ASAP; scratching around at low altitude is an anathema to this end.It's generally the upowered glider pilots that have the greatest "range anxiety"; FES pilots are grinning like Cheshire Cats because they have 50-100km more range than when they were powerless. Depending on how tows are charged (and other obvious factors)
Tom 2G
On Saturday, June 3, 2023 at 5:10:09 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:possible, because the rules for distance portion (OLC Classic) and the triangle portion of the OLC score (officially the "OLC-Plus" score) required a maximum of 1000M height between the start and endpoints.
On Saturday, June 3, 2023 at 8:19:28 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On Friday, June 2, 2023 at 12:55:36 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Friday, June 2, 2023 at 11:15:40 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
... but he doesn't know why, so I will do some OLCsplaining for him.
He claims some pilots (motorglider pilots, of course) are taking unfair advantage by climbing waaay up into the sky, so they have all that "unearned" altitude to make distance and improve their OLC score. Prior to the 2022 season, that wasn't
any consideration of the height difference. For points, that distance is handicapped as usual, and a fraction of it is added to the OLC-Plus score, just like the FAI triangle bonus.That changed for the 2022 season, when they added another bonus to the OLC-Plus score called "OLC-Distance Course". That's measured from the start of soaring (tow release or engine stopped) to the flight point that is the farthest away, without
incentive for glider pilots to take high tows!So, Bob is right that you can increase your (OLC-Plus) score by a high start, but he's wrong that it's unfair: it's in the rules and available to every pilot, whether towed or self-launched. As towplane owner, he should be delighted at this
something similar to what my engineer PE son would say. Us PURIST don't' take motorglider height tows, as I stated before I would be embarrassed to record such a flight. No need for any OLCsplaining, it was a teachable moment for me, you are certainlySeem like the WOKE WORLD of MOTORGLIDING is eating a bit of humble pie. Greenie, I tried to explain to you in the very beginning that the score reflected on the graph at the release altitude and you came back with some kind of engineering excuse
because it's really cheap and easy to do; and FES pilots will often putter around at 1000'-1500' AGL until they find a thermal, to maximize their remaining battery capacity.There is an interesting variation in typical launch heights between the different types of motorgliders and their pilots. Some will take the usual 2000 AGL launch, knowing they can easily restart if needed; some will take an extra 1000' or so,
factors), they still might get off tow at 1000-1500 to save a bunch of bucks.I've observed "range anxiety" is determined more by the pilot than the equipment; e.g., I've known 1-26 pilots with less concern for range than some 18M pilots.FES pilots have "range anxiety" and often take tows to maximize retrieve range. My goal while launching is to get on course ASAP; scratching around at low altitude is an anathema to this end.
Tom 2GIt's generally the upowered glider pilots that have the greatest "range anxiety"; FES pilots are grinning like Cheshire Cats because they have 50-100km more range than when they were powerless. Depending on how tows are charged (and other obvious
On Saturday, June 3, 2023 at 5:10:09 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:possible, because the rules for distance portion (OLC Classic) and the triangle portion of the OLC score (officially the "OLC-Plus" score) required a maximum of 1000M height between the start and endpoints.
On Saturday, June 3, 2023 at 8:19:28 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On Friday, June 2, 2023 at 12:55:36 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote: >>>> On Friday, June 2, 2023 at 11:15:40 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote: >>>>> ... but he doesn't know why, so I will do some OLCsplaining for him. >>>>>
He claims some pilots (motorglider pilots, of course) are taking unfair advantage by climbing waaay up into the sky, so they have all that "unearned" altitude to make distance and improve their OLC score. Prior to the 2022 season, that wasn't
consideration of the height difference. For points, that distance is handicapped as usual, and a fraction of it is added to the OLC-Plus score, just like the FAI triangle bonus.
That changed for the 2022 season, when they added another bonus to the OLC-Plus score called "OLC-Distance Course". That's measured from the start of soaring (tow release or engine stopped) to the flight point that is the farthest away, without any
incentive for glider pilots to take high tows!
So, Bob is right that you can increase your (OLC-Plus) score by a high start, but he's wrong that it's unfair: it's in the rules and available to every pilot, whether towed or self-launched. As towplane owner, he should be delighted at this
something similar to what my engineer PE son would say. Us PURIST don't' take motorglider height tows, as I stated before I would be embarrassed to record such a flight. No need for any OLCsplaining, it was a teachable moment for me, you are certainlySeem like the WOKE WORLD of MOTORGLIDING is eating a bit of humble pie. Greenie, I tried to explain to you in the very beginning that the score reflected on the graph at the release altitude and you came back with some kind of engineering excuse
because it's really cheap and easy to do; and FES pilots will often putter around at 1000'-1500' AGL until they find a thermal, to maximize their remaining battery capacity.There is an interesting variation in typical launch heights between the different types of motorgliders and their pilots. Some will take the usual 2000 AGL launch, knowing they can easily restart if needed; some will take an extra 1000' or so,
factors), they still might get off tow at 1000-1500 to save a bunch of bucks.I've observed "range anxiety" is determined more by the pilot than the equipment; e.g., I've known 1-26 pilots with less concern for range than some 18M pilots.FES pilots have "range anxiety" and often take tows to maximize retrieve range. My goal while launching is to get on course ASAP; scratching around at low altitude is an anathema to this end.It's generally the upowered glider pilots that have the greatest "range anxiety"; FES pilots are grinning like Cheshire Cats because they have 50-100km more range than when they were powerless. Depending on how tows are charged (and other obvious
Tom 2G
On Saturday, June 3, 2023 at 5:10:09 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:possible, because the rules for distance portion (OLC Classic) and the triangle portion of the OLC score (officially the "OLC-Plus" score) required a maximum of 1000M height between the start and endpoints.
On Saturday, June 3, 2023 at 8:19:28 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On Friday, June 2, 2023 at 12:55:36 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Friday, June 2, 2023 at 11:15:40 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
... but he doesn't know why, so I will do some OLCsplaining for him.
He claims some pilots (motorglider pilots, of course) are taking unfair advantage by climbing waaay up into the sky, so they have all that "unearned" altitude to make distance and improve their OLC score. Prior to the 2022 season, that wasn't
any consideration of the height difference. For points, that distance is handicapped as usual, and a fraction of it is added to the OLC-Plus score, just like the FAI triangle bonus.That changed for the 2022 season, when they added another bonus to the OLC-Plus score called "OLC-Distance Course". That's measured from the start of soaring (tow release or engine stopped) to the flight point that is the farthest away, without
incentive for glider pilots to take high tows!So, Bob is right that you can increase your (OLC-Plus) score by a high start, but he's wrong that it's unfair: it's in the rules and available to every pilot, whether towed or self-launched. As towplane owner, he should be delighted at this
something similar to what my engineer PE son would say. Us PURIST don't' take motorglider height tows, as I stated before I would be embarrassed to record such a flight. No need for any OLCsplaining, it was a teachable moment for me, you are certainlySeem like the WOKE WORLD of MOTORGLIDING is eating a bit of humble pie. Greenie, I tried to explain to you in the very beginning that the score reflected on the graph at the release altitude and you came back with some kind of engineering excuse
because it's really cheap and easy to do; and FES pilots will often putter around at 1000'-1500' AGL until they find a thermal, to maximize their remaining battery capacity.There is an interesting variation in typical launch heights between the different types of motorgliders and their pilots. Some will take the usual 2000 AGL launch, knowing they can easily restart if needed; some will take an extra 1000' or so,
factors), they still might get off tow at 1000-1500 to save a bunch of bucks.I've observed "range anxiety" is determined more by the pilot than the equipment; e.g., I've known 1-26 pilots with less concern for range than some 18M pilots.FES pilots have "range anxiety" and often take tows to maximize retrieve range. My goal while launching is to get on course ASAP; scratching around at low altitude is an anathema to this end.
Tom 2GIt's generally the upowered glider pilots that have the greatest "range anxiety"; FES pilots are grinning like Cheshire Cats because they have 50-100km more range than when they were powerless. Depending on how tows are charged (and other obvious
Yesterday while doodling along and low (for Moriarty) altitude, I
thought that, if necessary, I could land on the gravel strip at
Estancia, about 10 miles south of home. Don't know if I'd want to take
off from a gravel strip given the price of new propeller blades, however.
Then I thought, there's a gravel road (in good condition) that parallels
the highway back to Moriarty. I could hitch hike back to the airport,
get my car and towing gear, and get the local sheriff to give me an
escort through Estancia (37 foot span with wings folded) and then,
either assemble and take off on the highway or have an escort all the
way back to the home field. What a story that would make.
Yeah, either trash my carbon prop ($10K plus mechanic) or have my tail
dolly fail and park my glider in a ditch or have a truck hit the
glider... Nah, I'll stick to glide range of a paved airport.
Dan
5J
On 6/3/23 22:08, Eric Greenwell wrote:possible, because the rules for distance portion (OLC Classic) and the triangle portion of the OLC score (officially the "OLC-Plus" score) required a maximum of 1000M height between the start and endpoints.
On Saturday, June 3, 2023 at 5:10:09 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Saturday, June 3, 2023 at 8:19:28 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote: >>> On Friday, June 2, 2023 at 12:55:36 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Friday, June 2, 2023 at 11:15:40 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote: >>>>> ... but he doesn't know why, so I will do some OLCsplaining for him. >>>>>
He claims some pilots (motorglider pilots, of course) are taking unfair advantage by climbing waaay up into the sky, so they have all that "unearned" altitude to make distance and improve their OLC score. Prior to the 2022 season, that wasn't
any consideration of the height difference. For points, that distance is handicapped as usual, and a fraction of it is added to the OLC-Plus score, just like the FAI triangle bonus.
That changed for the 2022 season, when they added another bonus to the OLC-Plus score called "OLC-Distance Course". That's measured from the start of soaring (tow release or engine stopped) to the flight point that is the farthest away, without
incentive for glider pilots to take high tows!
So, Bob is right that you can increase your (OLC-Plus) score by a high start, but he's wrong that it's unfair: it's in the rules and available to every pilot, whether towed or self-launched. As towplane owner, he should be delighted at this
something similar to what my engineer PE son would say. Us PURIST don't' take motorglider height tows, as I stated before I would be embarrassed to record such a flight. No need for any OLCsplaining, it was a teachable moment for me, you are certainlySeem like the WOKE WORLD of MOTORGLIDING is eating a bit of humble pie. Greenie, I tried to explain to you in the very beginning that the score reflected on the graph at the release altitude and you came back with some kind of engineering excuse
because it's really cheap and easy to do; and FES pilots will often putter around at 1000'-1500' AGL until they find a thermal, to maximize their remaining battery capacity.There is an interesting variation in typical launch heights between the different types of motorgliders and their pilots. Some will take the usual 2000 AGL launch, knowing they can easily restart if needed; some will take an extra 1000' or so,
factors), they still might get off tow at 1000-1500 to save a bunch of bucks.I've observed "range anxiety" is determined more by the pilot than the equipment; e.g., I've known 1-26 pilots with less concern for range than some 18M pilots.FES pilots have "range anxiety" and often take tows to maximize retrieve range. My goal while launching is to get on course ASAP; scratching around at low altitude is an anathema to this end.It's generally the upowered glider pilots that have the greatest "range anxiety"; FES pilots are grinning like Cheshire Cats because they have 50-100km more range than when they were powerless. Depending on how tows are charged (and other obvious
Tom 2G
On Saturday, June 3, 2023 at 9:08:17 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:possible, because the rules for distance portion (OLC Classic) and the triangle portion of the OLC score (officially the "OLC-Plus" score) required a maximum of 1000M height between the start and endpoints.
On Saturday, June 3, 2023 at 5:10:09 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Saturday, June 3, 2023 at 8:19:28 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On Friday, June 2, 2023 at 12:55:36 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Friday, June 2, 2023 at 11:15:40 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
... but he doesn't know why, so I will do some OLCsplaining for him.
He claims some pilots (motorglider pilots, of course) are taking unfair advantage by climbing waaay up into the sky, so they have all that "unearned" altitude to make distance and improve their OLC score. Prior to the 2022 season, that wasn't
without any consideration of the height difference. For points, that distance is handicapped as usual, and a fraction of it is added to the OLC-Plus score, just like the FAI triangle bonus.That changed for the 2022 season, when they added another bonus to the OLC-Plus score called "OLC-Distance Course". That's measured from the start of soaring (tow release or engine stopped) to the flight point that is the farthest away,
incentive for glider pilots to take high tows!So, Bob is right that you can increase your (OLC-Plus) score by a high start, but he's wrong that it's unfair: it's in the rules and available to every pilot, whether towed or self-launched. As towplane owner, he should be delighted at this
excuse something similar to what my engineer PE son would say. Us PURIST don't' take motorglider height tows, as I stated before I would be embarrassed to record such a flight. No need for any OLCsplaining, it was a teachable moment for me, you areSeem like the WOKE WORLD of MOTORGLIDING is eating a bit of humble pie. Greenie, I tried to explain to you in the very beginning that the score reflected on the graph at the release altitude and you came back with some kind of engineering
because it's really cheap and easy to do; and FES pilots will often putter around at 1000'-1500' AGL until they find a thermal, to maximize their remaining battery capacity.There is an interesting variation in typical launch heights between the different types of motorgliders and their pilots. Some will take the usual 2000 AGL launch, knowing they can easily restart if needed; some will take an extra 1000' or so,
factors), they still might get off tow at 1000-1500 to save a bunch of bucks.I've observed "range anxiety" is determined more by the pilot than the equipment; e.g., I've known 1-26 pilots with less concern for range than some 18M pilots.FES pilots have "range anxiety" and often take tows to maximize retrieve range. My goal while launching is to get on course ASAP; scratching around at low altitude is an anathema to this end.
Tom 2GIt's generally the upowered glider pilots that have the greatest "range anxiety"; FES pilots are grinning like Cheshire Cats because they have 50-100km more range than when they were powerless. Depending on how tows are charged (and other obvious
If they are "grinning" then why are they taking tows? You don't have to answer because they have already told me: they are keeping their limited battery energy in reserve for a retrieve, or at least to get to an airport or a safe out-landing site. Atow will cut into their already limited range. And you are assuming that they have no mountain range to climb over, which pretty much eliminates any possibility of self-retrieve.
Tom 2GThey are grinning because the FES glider gives them options they did not have with their towed glider. Some of them take tows to extend those options. I liken it to motorglider pilots that buy optional wing fuel tanks, instead of just using the fuselage
That is the price you may pay for not having a trailer. I could launch from a gravel strip w/o any damage to the prop.
Tom 2G
On Sunday, June 4, 2023 at 10:12:05 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:t possible, because the rules for distance portion (OLC Classic) and the triangle portion of the OLC score (officially the "OLC-Plus" score) required a maximum of 1000M height between the start and endpoints.
On Saturday, June 3, 2023 at 9:08:17 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On Saturday, June 3, 2023 at 5:10:09 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Saturday, June 3, 2023 at 8:19:28 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On Friday, June 2, 2023 at 12:55:36 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Friday, June 2, 2023 at 11:15:40 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
... but he doesn't know why, so I will do some OLCsplaining for him.
He claims some pilots (motorglider pilots, of course) are taking unfair advantage by climbing waaay up into the sky, so they have all that "unearned" altitude to make distance and improve their OLC score. Prior to the 2022 season, that wasn'
without any consideration of the height difference. For points, that distance is handicapped as usual, and a fraction of it is added to the OLC-Plus score, just like the FAI triangle bonus.That changed for the 2022 season, when they added another bonus to the OLC-Plus score called "OLC-Distance Course". That's measured from the start of soaring (tow release or engine stopped) to the flight point that is the farthest away,
incentive for glider pilots to take high tows!So, Bob is right that you can increase your (OLC-Plus) score by a high start, but he's wrong that it's unfair: it's in the rules and available to every pilot, whether towed or self-launched. As towplane owner, he should be delighted at this
excuse something similar to what my engineer PE son would say. Us PURIST don't' take motorglider height tows, as I stated before I would be embarrassed to record such a flight. No need for any OLCsplaining, it was a teachable moment for me, you areSeem like the WOKE WORLD of MOTORGLIDING is eating a bit of humble pie. Greenie, I tried to explain to you in the very beginning that the score reflected on the graph at the release altitude and you came back with some kind of engineering
because it's really cheap and easy to do; and FES pilots will often putter around at 1000'-1500' AGL until they find a thermal, to maximize their remaining battery capacity.There is an interesting variation in typical launch heights between the different types of motorgliders and their pilots. Some will take the usual 2000 AGL launch, knowing they can easily restart if needed; some will take an extra 1000' or so,
factors), they still might get off tow at 1000-1500 to save a bunch of bucks.I've observed "range anxiety" is determined more by the pilot than the equipment; e.g., I've known 1-26 pilots with less concern for range than some 18M pilots.FES pilots have "range anxiety" and often take tows to maximize retrieve range. My goal while launching is to get on course ASAP; scratching around at low altitude is an anathema to this end.
Tom 2GIt's generally the upowered glider pilots that have the greatest "range anxiety"; FES pilots are grinning like Cheshire Cats because they have 50-100km more range than when they were powerless. Depending on how tows are charged (and other obvious
tow will cut into their already limited range. And you are assuming that they have no mountain range to climb over, which pretty much eliminates any possibility of self-retrieve.If they are "grinning" then why are they taking tows? You don't have to answer because they have already told me: they are keeping their limited battery energy in reserve for a retrieve, or at least to get to an airport or a safe out-landing site. A
fuselage tank, or glider pilots that get the 18M tips instead of just using the 15M tips. The FES pilots I've talked to don't have "range anxiety"; instead, their anxiety is reduced, because they can more easily avoid landouts and retrieves.Tom 2GThey are grinning because the FES glider gives them options they did not have with their towed glider. Some of them take tows to extend those options. I liken it to motorglider pilots that buy optional wing fuel tanks, instead of just using the
I'm sure it's tough for a "belt and suspenders" (21M wings and wing fuel tanks) person, such as yourself, to grasp the value of the FES glider, with it's much smaller powered range. Try to recall flying in your ASW19: wouldn't you have had less "rangeanxiety" if the ASW19 had been FES equipped?
On Monday, June 5, 2023 at 7:36:44 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:wasn't possible, because the rules for distance portion (OLC Classic) and the triangle portion of the OLC score (officially the "OLC-Plus" score) required a maximum of 1000M height between the start and endpoints.
On Sunday, June 4, 2023 at 10:12:05 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Saturday, June 3, 2023 at 9:08:17 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On Saturday, June 3, 2023 at 5:10:09 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Saturday, June 3, 2023 at 8:19:28 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On Friday, June 2, 2023 at 12:55:36 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Friday, June 2, 2023 at 11:15:40 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
... but he doesn't know why, so I will do some OLCsplaining for him.
He claims some pilots (motorglider pilots, of course) are taking unfair advantage by climbing waaay up into the sky, so they have all that "unearned" altitude to make distance and improve their OLC score. Prior to the 2022 season, that
without any consideration of the height difference. For points, that distance is handicapped as usual, and a fraction of it is added to the OLC-Plus score, just like the FAI triangle bonus.That changed for the 2022 season, when they added another bonus to the OLC-Plus score called "OLC-Distance Course". That's measured from the start of soaring (tow release or engine stopped) to the flight point that is the farthest away,
this incentive for glider pilots to take high tows!So, Bob is right that you can increase your (OLC-Plus) score by a high start, but he's wrong that it's unfair: it's in the rules and available to every pilot, whether towed or self-launched. As towplane owner, he should be delighted at
excuse something similar to what my engineer PE son would say. Us PURIST don't' take motorglider height tows, as I stated before I would be embarrassed to record such a flight. No need for any OLCsplaining, it was a teachable moment for me, you areSeem like the WOKE WORLD of MOTORGLIDING is eating a bit of humble pie. Greenie, I tried to explain to you in the very beginning that the score reflected on the graph at the release altitude and you came back with some kind of engineering
because it's really cheap and easy to do; and FES pilots will often putter around at 1000'-1500' AGL until they find a thermal, to maximize their remaining battery capacity.There is an interesting variation in typical launch heights between the different types of motorgliders and their pilots. Some will take the usual 2000 AGL launch, knowing they can easily restart if needed; some will take an extra 1000' or so,
factors), they still might get off tow at 1000-1500 to save a bunch of bucks.I've observed "range anxiety" is determined more by the pilot than the equipment; e.g., I've known 1-26 pilots with less concern for range than some 18M pilots.FES pilots have "range anxiety" and often take tows to maximize retrieve range. My goal while launching is to get on course ASAP; scratching around at low altitude is an anathema to this end.
Tom 2GIt's generally the upowered glider pilots that have the greatest "range anxiety"; FES pilots are grinning like Cheshire Cats because they have 50-100km more range than when they were powerless. Depending on how tows are charged (and other obvious
A tow will cut into their already limited range. And you are assuming that they have no mountain range to climb over, which pretty much eliminates any possibility of self-retrieve.If they are "grinning" then why are they taking tows? You don't have to answer because they have already told me: they are keeping their limited battery energy in reserve for a retrieve, or at least to get to an airport or a safe out-landing site.
fuselage tank, or glider pilots that get the 18M tips instead of just using the 15M tips. The FES pilots I've talked to don't have "range anxiety"; instead, their anxiety is reduced, because they can more easily avoid landouts and retrieves.Tom 2GThey are grinning because the FES glider gives them options they did not have with their towed glider. Some of them take tows to extend those options. I liken it to motorglider pilots that buy optional wing fuel tanks, instead of just using the
range anxiety" if the ASW19 had been FES equipped?I'm sure it's tough for a "belt and suspenders" (21M wings and wing fuel tanks) person, such as yourself, to grasp the value of the FES glider, with it's much smaller powered range. Try to recall flying in your ASW19: wouldn't you have had less "
I know of a Mini Lak FES pilot who could not get back to Ely and he was only 50 miles out. He took a tow to preserve his battery capacity, but a small mountain range stood between him and home. Just climbing the required altitude to clear the rangewould have exhausted his battery capacity. Instead, he used his battery to scout for a safe outlanding site. Was this better than the pilot who was forced to land his pure glider in the same general area? Of course.
You can play with semantics all you want, but the fact remains the FES pilots DO have range anxiety when you are flying in high desert country. You haven't flown your electric yet (even after 3 years waiting), but once you do you can report back on thedifference between it and the 26e.
Tom 2GGood Lord, Tom, he was trying to fly Big Records (like a 1000k) in a Small Glider (13.5M!) THAT was his problem, not the FES range! When you fly for records, getting home is a much smaller priority than it is in non-task flying.
On Monday, June 5, 2023 at 6:09:23 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:wasn't possible, because the rules for distance portion (OLC Classic) and the triangle portion of the OLC score (officially the "OLC-Plus" score) required a maximum of 1000M height between the start and endpoints.
On Monday, June 5, 2023 at 7:36:44 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On Sunday, June 4, 2023 at 10:12:05 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Saturday, June 3, 2023 at 9:08:17 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On Saturday, June 3, 2023 at 5:10:09 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Saturday, June 3, 2023 at 8:19:28 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On Friday, June 2, 2023 at 12:55:36 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Friday, June 2, 2023 at 11:15:40 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
... but he doesn't know why, so I will do some OLCsplaining for him.
He claims some pilots (motorglider pilots, of course) are taking unfair advantage by climbing waaay up into the sky, so they have all that "unearned" altitude to make distance and improve their OLC score. Prior to the 2022 season, that
without any consideration of the height difference. For points, that distance is handicapped as usual, and a fraction of it is added to the OLC-Plus score, just like the FAI triangle bonus.That changed for the 2022 season, when they added another bonus to the OLC-Plus score called "OLC-Distance Course". That's measured from the start of soaring (tow release or engine stopped) to the flight point that is the farthest away,
this incentive for glider pilots to take high tows!So, Bob is right that you can increase your (OLC-Plus) score by a high start, but he's wrong that it's unfair: it's in the rules and available to every pilot, whether towed or self-launched. As towplane owner, he should be delighted at
excuse something similar to what my engineer PE son would say. Us PURIST don't' take motorglider height tows, as I stated before I would be embarrassed to record such a flight. No need for any OLCsplaining, it was a teachable moment for me, you areSeem like the WOKE WORLD of MOTORGLIDING is eating a bit of humble pie. Greenie, I tried to explain to you in the very beginning that the score reflected on the graph at the release altitude and you came back with some kind of engineering
so, because it's really cheap and easy to do; and FES pilots will often putter around at 1000'-1500' AGL until they find a thermal, to maximize their remaining battery capacity.There is an interesting variation in typical launch heights between the different types of motorgliders and their pilots. Some will take the usual 2000 AGL launch, knowing they can easily restart if needed; some will take an extra 1000' or
obvious factors), they still might get off tow at 1000-1500 to save a bunch of bucks.I've observed "range anxiety" is determined more by the pilot than the equipment; e.g., I've known 1-26 pilots with less concern for range than some 18M pilots.FES pilots have "range anxiety" and often take tows to maximize retrieve range. My goal while launching is to get on course ASAP; scratching around at low altitude is an anathema to this end.
Tom 2GIt's generally the upowered glider pilots that have the greatest "range anxiety"; FES pilots are grinning like Cheshire Cats because they have 50-100km more range than when they were powerless. Depending on how tows are charged (and other
A tow will cut into their already limited range. And you are assuming that they have no mountain range to climb over, which pretty much eliminates any possibility of self-retrieve.If they are "grinning" then why are they taking tows? You don't have to answer because they have already told me: they are keeping their limited battery energy in reserve for a retrieve, or at least to get to an airport or a safe out-landing site.
fuselage tank, or glider pilots that get the 18M tips instead of just using the 15M tips. The FES pilots I've talked to don't have "range anxiety"; instead, their anxiety is reduced, because they can more easily avoid landouts and retrieves.Tom 2GThey are grinning because the FES glider gives them options they did not have with their towed glider. Some of them take tows to extend those options. I liken it to motorglider pilots that buy optional wing fuel tanks, instead of just using the
range anxiety" if the ASW19 had been FES equipped?I'm sure it's tough for a "belt and suspenders" (21M wings and wing fuel tanks) person, such as yourself, to grasp the value of the FES glider, with it's much smaller powered range. Try to recall flying in your ASW19: wouldn't you have had less "
would have exhausted his battery capacity. Instead, he used his battery to scout for a safe outlanding site. Was this better than the pilot who was forced to land his pure glider in the same general area? Of course.I know of a Mini Lak FES pilot who could not get back to Ely and he was only 50 miles out. He took a tow to preserve his battery capacity, but a small mountain range stood between him and home. Just climbing the required altitude to clear the range
the difference between it and the 26e.You can play with semantics all you want, but the fact remains the FES pilots DO have range anxiety when you are flying in high desert country. You haven't flown your electric yet (even after 3 years waiting), but once you do you can report back on
Tom 2GGood Lord, Tom, he was trying to fly Big Records (like a 1000k) in a Small Glider (13.5M!) THAT was his problem, not the FES range! When you fly for records, getting home is a much smaller priority than it is in non-task flying.
On Monday, June 5, 2023 at 8:55:40 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:that wasn't possible, because the rules for distance portion (OLC Classic) and the triangle portion of the OLC score (officially the "OLC-Plus" score) required a maximum of 1000M height between the start and endpoints.
On Monday, June 5, 2023 at 6:09:23 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Monday, June 5, 2023 at 7:36:44 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On Sunday, June 4, 2023 at 10:12:05 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Saturday, June 3, 2023 at 9:08:17 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On Saturday, June 3, 2023 at 5:10:09 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Saturday, June 3, 2023 at 8:19:28 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On Friday, June 2, 2023 at 12:55:36 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Friday, June 2, 2023 at 11:15:40 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
... but he doesn't know why, so I will do some OLCsplaining for him.
He claims some pilots (motorglider pilots, of course) are taking unfair advantage by climbing waaay up into the sky, so they have all that "unearned" altitude to make distance and improve their OLC score. Prior to the 2022 season,
away, without any consideration of the height difference. For points, that distance is handicapped as usual, and a fraction of it is added to the OLC-Plus score, just like the FAI triangle bonus.That changed for the 2022 season, when they added another bonus to the OLC-Plus score called "OLC-Distance Course". That's measured from the start of soaring (tow release or engine stopped) to the flight point that is the farthest
at this incentive for glider pilots to take high tows!So, Bob is right that you can increase your (OLC-Plus) score by a high start, but he's wrong that it's unfair: it's in the rules and available to every pilot, whether towed or self-launched. As towplane owner, he should be delighted
engineering excuse something similar to what my engineer PE son would say. Us PURIST don't' take motorglider height tows, as I stated before I would be embarrassed to record such a flight. No need for any OLCsplaining, it was a teachable moment for me,Seem like the WOKE WORLD of MOTORGLIDING is eating a bit of humble pie. Greenie, I tried to explain to you in the very beginning that the score reflected on the graph at the release altitude and you came back with some kind of
or so, because it's really cheap and easy to do; and FES pilots will often putter around at 1000'-1500' AGL until they find a thermal, to maximize their remaining battery capacity.There is an interesting variation in typical launch heights between the different types of motorgliders and their pilots. Some will take the usual 2000 AGL launch, knowing they can easily restart if needed; some will take an extra 1000'
obvious factors), they still might get off tow at 1000-1500 to save a bunch of bucks.I've observed "range anxiety" is determined more by the pilot than the equipment; e.g., I've known 1-26 pilots with less concern for range than some 18M pilots.FES pilots have "range anxiety" and often take tows to maximize retrieve range. My goal while launching is to get on course ASAP; scratching around at low altitude is an anathema to this end.
Tom 2GIt's generally the upowered glider pilots that have the greatest "range anxiety"; FES pilots are grinning like Cheshire Cats because they have 50-100km more range than when they were powerless. Depending on how tows are charged (and other
site. A tow will cut into their already limited range. And you are assuming that they have no mountain range to climb over, which pretty much eliminates any possibility of self-retrieve.If they are "grinning" then why are they taking tows? You don't have to answer because they have already told me: they are keeping their limited battery energy in reserve for a retrieve, or at least to get to an airport or a safe out-landing
fuselage tank, or glider pilots that get the 18M tips instead of just using the 15M tips. The FES pilots I've talked to don't have "range anxiety"; instead, their anxiety is reduced, because they can more easily avoid landouts and retrieves.Tom 2GThey are grinning because the FES glider gives them options they did not have with their towed glider. Some of them take tows to extend those options. I liken it to motorglider pilots that buy optional wing fuel tanks, instead of just using the
range anxiety" if the ASW19 had been FES equipped?I'm sure it's tough for a "belt and suspenders" (21M wings and wing fuel tanks) person, such as yourself, to grasp the value of the FES glider, with it's much smaller powered range. Try to recall flying in your ASW19: wouldn't you have had less "
would have exhausted his battery capacity. Instead, he used his battery to scout for a safe outlanding site. Was this better than the pilot who was forced to land his pure glider in the same general area? Of course.I know of a Mini Lak FES pilot who could not get back to Ely and he was only 50 miles out. He took a tow to preserve his battery capacity, but a small mountain range stood between him and home. Just climbing the required altitude to clear the range
the difference between it and the 26e.You can play with semantics all you want, but the fact remains the FES pilots DO have range anxiety when you are flying in high desert country. You haven't flown your electric yet (even after 3 years waiting), but once you do you can report back on
Eric, are you out of your f**king mind? It doesn't matter WHAT record he was trying to achieve, he COULDN'T self-retrieve from 50 miles, your "sweet zone" for FES gliders.Tom 2GGood Lord, Tom, he was trying to fly Big Records (like a 1000k) in a Small Glider (13.5M!) THAT was his problem, not the FES range! When you fly for records, getting home is a much smaller priority than it is in non-task flying.
Tom 2G
Wouldn’t that be the case also with regular sustainers? I understand they too may not be able to cross some of the ranges in the Great Basin, especially when waiting until low to start. Or so they tell me....
Ramy
On Tuesday, June 6, 2023 at 7:49:02 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Monday, June 5, 2023 at 8:55:40 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On Monday, June 5, 2023 at 6:09:23 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
Many sustainers can't even "sustain" at high density altitudes, so crossing mountains isn't possible, and a towed glider can't even "sustain" at low densith altitudes. And why this intense focus on it's powered range, and not the gliding range - it'sEric, are you out of your f**king mind? It doesn't matter WHAT record he was trying to achieve, he COULDN'T self-retrieve from 50 miles, your "sweet zone" for FES gliders.Tom 2GGood Lord, Tom, he was trying to fly Big Records (like a 1000k) in a Small Glider (13.5M!) THAT was his problem, not the FES range! When you fly for records, getting home is a much smaller priority than it is in non-task flying.
Tom 2G
On Monday, June 5, 2023 at 8:55:40 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:possible, because the rules for distance portion (OLC Classic) and the triangle portion of the OLC score (officially the "OLC-Plus" score) required a maximum of 1000M height between the start and endpoints.
On Monday, June 5, 2023 at 6:09:23 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Monday, June 5, 2023 at 7:36:44 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On Sunday, June 4, 2023 at 10:12:05 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Saturday, June 3, 2023 at 9:08:17 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote: >>>>>> On Saturday, June 3, 2023 at 5:10:09 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Saturday, June 3, 2023 at 8:19:28 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote: >>>>>>>> On Friday, June 2, 2023 at 12:55:36 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Friday, June 2, 2023 at 11:15:40 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote: >>>>>>>>>> ... but he doesn't know why, so I will do some OLCsplaining for him. >>>>>>>>>>
He claims some pilots (motorglider pilots, of course) are taking unfair advantage by climbing waaay up into the sky, so they have all that "unearned" altitude to make distance and improve their OLC score. Prior to the 2022 season, that wasn't
without any consideration of the height difference. For points, that distance is handicapped as usual, and a fraction of it is added to the OLC-Plus score, just like the FAI triangle bonus.
That changed for the 2022 season, when they added another bonus to the OLC-Plus score called "OLC-Distance Course". That's measured from the start of soaring (tow release or engine stopped) to the flight point that is the farthest away,
incentive for glider pilots to take high tows!
So, Bob is right that you can increase your (OLC-Plus) score by a high start, but he's wrong that it's unfair: it's in the rules and available to every pilot, whether towed or self-launched. As towplane owner, he should be delighted at this
excuse something similar to what my engineer PE son would say. Us PURIST don't' take motorglider height tows, as I stated before I would be embarrassed to record such a flight. No need for any OLCsplaining, it was a teachable moment for me, you areSeem like the WOKE WORLD of MOTORGLIDING is eating a bit of humble pie. Greenie, I tried to explain to you in the very beginning that the score reflected on the graph at the release altitude and you came back with some kind of engineering
because it's really cheap and easy to do; and FES pilots will often putter around at 1000'-1500' AGL until they find a thermal, to maximize their remaining battery capacity.There is an interesting variation in typical launch heights between the different types of motorgliders and their pilots. Some will take the usual 2000 AGL launch, knowing they can easily restart if needed; some will take an extra 1000' or so,
factors), they still might get off tow at 1000-1500 to save a bunch of bucks.I've observed "range anxiety" is determined more by the pilot than the equipment; e.g., I've known 1-26 pilots with less concern for range than some 18M pilots.FES pilots have "range anxiety" and often take tows to maximize retrieve range. My goal while launching is to get on course ASAP; scratching around at low altitude is an anathema to this end.It's generally the upowered glider pilots that have the greatest "range anxiety"; FES pilots are grinning like Cheshire Cats because they have 50-100km more range than when they were powerless. Depending on how tows are charged (and other obvious
Tom 2G
A tow will cut into their already limited range. And you are assuming that they have no mountain range to climb over, which pretty much eliminates any possibility of self-retrieve.If they are "grinning" then why are they taking tows? You don't have to answer because they have already told me: they are keeping their limited battery energy in reserve for a retrieve, or at least to get to an airport or a safe out-landing site.
fuselage tank, or glider pilots that get the 18M tips instead of just using the 15M tips. The FES pilots I've talked to don't have "range anxiety"; instead, their anxiety is reduced, because they can more easily avoid landouts and retrieves.They are grinning because the FES glider gives them options they did not have with their towed glider. Some of them take tows to extend those options. I liken it to motorglider pilots that buy optional wing fuel tanks, instead of just using the
Tom 2G
range anxiety" if the ASW19 had been FES equipped?
I'm sure it's tough for a "belt and suspenders" (21M wings and wing fuel tanks) person, such as yourself, to grasp the value of the FES glider, with it's much smaller powered range. Try to recall flying in your ASW19: wouldn't you have had less "
would have exhausted his battery capacity. Instead, he used his battery to scout for a safe outlanding site. Was this better than the pilot who was forced to land his pure glider in the same general area? Of course.I know of a Mini Lak FES pilot who could not get back to Ely and he was only 50 miles out. He took a tow to preserve his battery capacity, but a small mountain range stood between him and home. Just climbing the required altitude to clear the range
the difference between it and the 26e.
You can play with semantics all you want, but the fact remains the FES pilots DO have range anxiety when you are flying in high desert country. You haven't flown your electric yet (even after 3 years waiting), but once you do you can report back on
Good Lord, Tom, he was trying to fly Big Records (like a 1000k) in a Small Glider (13.5M!) THAT was his problem, not the FES range! When you fly for records, getting home is a much smaller priority than it is in non-task flying.
Tom 2G
Eric, are you out of your f**king mind? It doesn't matter WHAT record he was trying to achieve, he COULDN'T self-retrieve from 50 miles, your "sweet zone" for FES gliders.
Tom 2G
The fact that he set so many records (over 10) shows us what an FES glider can do,
On Friday, June 2, 2023 at 12:55:36 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:possible, because the rules for distance portion (OLC Classic) and the triangle portion of the OLC score (officially the "OLC-Plus" score) required a maximum of 1000M height between the start and endpoints.
On Friday, June 2, 2023 at 11:15:40 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
... but he doesn't know why, so I will do some OLCsplaining for him.
He claims some pilots (motorglider pilots, of course) are taking unfair advantage by climbing waaay up into the sky, so they have all that "unearned" altitude to make distance and improve their OLC score. Prior to the 2022 season, that wasn't
consideration of the height difference. For points, that distance is handicapped as usual, and a fraction of it is added to the OLC-Plus score, just like the FAI triangle bonus.That changed for the 2022 season, when they added another bonus to the OLC-Plus score called "OLC-Distance Course". That's measured from the start of soaring (tow release or engine stopped) to the flight point that is the farthest away, without any
incentive for glider pilots to take high tows!So, Bob is right that you can increase your (OLC-Plus) score by a high start, but he's wrong that it's unfair: it's in the rules and available to every pilot, whether towed or self-launched. As towplane owner, he should be delighted at this
something similar to what my engineer PE son would say. Us PURIST don't' take motorglider height tows, as I stated before I would be embarrassed to record such a flight. No need for any OLCsplaining, it was a teachable moment for me, you are certainlySeem like the WOKE WORLD of MOTORGLIDING is eating a bit of humble pie. Greenie, I tried to explain to you in the very beginning that the score reflected on the graph at the release altitude and you came back with some kind of engineering excuse
I am surprised that I was the first one to point out the important difference between the OLC-distance course and the other courses. Many, maybe most, pilots aren't aware that OLC-distance does not have height restrictions.you are willing to tow someone?
My OLCsplaining to Old Bob was inadequate for the task, I think, as you (apparently) still do not understand the situation. I am curious about your committment to "fairness": If someone asked for a 10,000' AGL tow, would you refuse? What is the highest
On Saturday, June 3, 2023 at 10:59:14 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:possible, because the rules for distance portion (OLC Classic) and the triangle portion of the OLC score (officially the "OLC-Plus" score) required a maximum of 1000M height between the start and endpoints.
On Friday, June 2, 2023 at 12:55:36 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Friday, June 2, 2023 at 11:15:40 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
... but he doesn't know why, so I will do some OLCsplaining for him.
He claims some pilots (motorglider pilots, of course) are taking unfair advantage by climbing waaay up into the sky, so they have all that "unearned" altitude to make distance and improve their OLC score. Prior to the 2022 season, that wasn't
any consideration of the height difference. For points, that distance is handicapped as usual, and a fraction of it is added to the OLC-Plus score, just like the FAI triangle bonus.That changed for the 2022 season, when they added another bonus to the OLC-Plus score called "OLC-Distance Course". That's measured from the start of soaring (tow release or engine stopped) to the flight point that is the farthest away, without
incentive for glider pilots to take high tows!So, Bob is right that you can increase your (OLC-Plus) score by a high start, but he's wrong that it's unfair: it's in the rules and available to every pilot, whether towed or self-launched. As towplane owner, he should be delighted at this
something similar to what my engineer PE son would say. Us PURIST don't' take motorglider height tows, as I stated before I would be embarrassed to record such a flight. No need for any OLCsplaining, it was a teachable moment for me, you are certainlySeem like the WOKE WORLD of MOTORGLIDING is eating a bit of humble pie. Greenie, I tried to explain to you in the very beginning that the score reflected on the graph at the release altitude and you came back with some kind of engineering excuse
highest you are willing to tow someone?I am surprised that I was the first one to point out the important difference between the OLC-distance course and the other courses. Many, maybe most, pilots aren't aware that OLC-distance does not have height restrictions.
My OLCsplaining to Old Bob was inadequate for the task, I think, as you (apparently) still do not understand the situation. I am curious about your committment to "fairness": If someone asked for a 10,000' AGL tow, would you refuse? What is the
It was a teachable moment for me but Eric was not listening to my lecture. You should have looked at the graph of the flight and you would have seen that the distance was calculated from the start of the vertical red line. I just returned from Cordeleafter a few days of enjoying the activity, the high tow scenario was the topic of discussion at one dinner outing and even the motorglider guys agreed with Old Bob.
Webster gives a pretty good definition of the word fairness, go do your homework, I am just trying to enlighten you a bit. OBTP"What we have here is a failure to communicate": you kept saying "distance", but everyone thought you meant "OLC classic distance", or maybe "OLC-Plus distance". You still don't seem to understand the "distances" that comprise OLC-Plus. Can you name the
On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 9:08:54 AM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:possible, because the rules for distance portion (OLC Classic) and the triangle portion of the OLC score (officially the "OLC-Plus" score) required a maximum of 1000M height between the start and endpoints.
On Saturday, June 3, 2023 at 10:59:14 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On Friday, June 2, 2023 at 12:55:36 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Friday, June 2, 2023 at 11:15:40 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
... but he doesn't know why, so I will do some OLCsplaining for him.
He claims some pilots (motorglider pilots, of course) are taking unfair advantage by climbing waaay up into the sky, so they have all that "unearned" altitude to make distance and improve their OLC score. Prior to the 2022 season, that wasn't
any consideration of the height difference. For points, that distance is handicapped as usual, and a fraction of it is added to the OLC-Plus score, just like the FAI triangle bonus.That changed for the 2022 season, when they added another bonus to the OLC-Plus score called "OLC-Distance Course". That's measured from the start of soaring (tow release or engine stopped) to the flight point that is the farthest away, without
incentive for glider pilots to take high tows!So, Bob is right that you can increase your (OLC-Plus) score by a high start, but he's wrong that it's unfair: it's in the rules and available to every pilot, whether towed or self-launched. As towplane owner, he should be delighted at this
something similar to what my engineer PE son would say. Us PURIST don't' take motorglider height tows, as I stated before I would be embarrassed to record such a flight. No need for any OLCsplaining, it was a teachable moment for me, you are certainlySeem like the WOKE WORLD of MOTORGLIDING is eating a bit of humble pie. Greenie, I tried to explain to you in the very beginning that the score reflected on the graph at the release altitude and you came back with some kind of engineering excuse
highest you are willing to tow someone?I am surprised that I was the first one to point out the important difference between the OLC-distance course and the other courses. Many, maybe most, pilots aren't aware that OLC-distance does not have height restrictions.
My OLCsplaining to Old Bob was inadequate for the task, I think, as you (apparently) still do not understand the situation. I am curious about your committment to "fairness": If someone asked for a 10,000' AGL tow, would you refuse? What is the
Cordele after a few days of enjoying the activity, the high tow scenario was the topic of discussion at one dinner outing and even the motorglider guys agreed with Old Bob.It was a teachable moment for me but Eric was not listening to my lecture. You should have looked at the graph of the flight and you would have seen that the distance was calculated from the start of the vertical red line. I just returned from
the distances that make up the OLC-Plus score? Don't feel bad if you can't, as most pilots posting on the OLC don't seem to know what they are, either. I wasn't aware of it, either, until last week.Webster gives a pretty good definition of the word fairness, go do your homework, I am just trying to enlighten you a bit. OBTP"What we have here is a failure to communicate": you kept saying "distance", but everyone thought you meant "OLC classic distance", or maybe "OLC-Plus distance". You still don't seem to understand the "distances" that comprise OLC-Plus. Can you name
On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 6:23:30 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:possible, because the rules for distance portion (OLC Classic) and the triangle portion of the OLC score (officially the "OLC-Plus" score) required a maximum of 1000M height between the start and endpoints.
On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 9:08:54 AM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Saturday, June 3, 2023 at 10:59:14 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On Friday, June 2, 2023 at 12:55:36 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Friday, June 2, 2023 at 11:15:40 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
... but he doesn't know why, so I will do some OLCsplaining for him.
He claims some pilots (motorglider pilots, of course) are taking unfair advantage by climbing waaay up into the sky, so they have all that "unearned" altitude to make distance and improve their OLC score. Prior to the 2022 season, that wasn't
without any consideration of the height difference. For points, that distance is handicapped as usual, and a fraction of it is added to the OLC-Plus score, just like the FAI triangle bonus.That changed for the 2022 season, when they added another bonus to the OLC-Plus score called "OLC-Distance Course". That's measured from the start of soaring (tow release or engine stopped) to the flight point that is the farthest away,
incentive for glider pilots to take high tows!So, Bob is right that you can increase your (OLC-Plus) score by a high start, but he's wrong that it's unfair: it's in the rules and available to every pilot, whether towed or self-launched. As towplane owner, he should be delighted at this
excuse something similar to what my engineer PE son would say. Us PURIST don't' take motorglider height tows, as I stated before I would be embarrassed to record such a flight. No need for any OLCsplaining, it was a teachable moment for me, you areSeem like the WOKE WORLD of MOTORGLIDING is eating a bit of humble pie. Greenie, I tried to explain to you in the very beginning that the score reflected on the graph at the release altitude and you came back with some kind of engineering
highest you are willing to tow someone?I am surprised that I was the first one to point out the important difference between the OLC-distance course and the other courses. Many, maybe most, pilots aren't aware that OLC-distance does not have height restrictions.
My OLCsplaining to Old Bob was inadequate for the task, I think, as you (apparently) still do not understand the situation. I am curious about your committment to "fairness": If someone asked for a 10,000' AGL tow, would you refuse? What is the
Cordele after a few days of enjoying the activity, the high tow scenario was the topic of discussion at one dinner outing and even the motorglider guys agreed with Old Bob.It was a teachable moment for me but Eric was not listening to my lecture. You should have looked at the graph of the flight and you would have seen that the distance was calculated from the start of the vertical red line. I just returned from
the distances that make up the OLC-Plus score? Don't feel bad if you can't, as most pilots posting on the OLC don't seem to know what they are, either. I wasn't aware of it, either, until last week.Webster gives a pretty good definition of the word fairness, go do your homework, I am just trying to enlighten you a bit. OBTP"What we have here is a failure to communicate": you kept saying "distance", but everyone thought you meant "OLC classic distance", or maybe "OLC-Plus distance". You still don't seem to understand the "distances" that comprise OLC-Plus. Can you name
I am glad I was responsible for increasing your awareness as to the Distance Category. OBTPStill getting it wrong...
On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 4:01:58 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:t possible, because the rules for distance portion (OLC Classic) and the triangle portion of the OLC score (officially the "OLC-Plus" score) required a maximum of 1000M height between the start and endpoints.
On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 6:23:30 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 9:08:54 AM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Saturday, June 3, 2023 at 10:59:14 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On Friday, June 2, 2023 at 12:55:36 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Friday, June 2, 2023 at 11:15:40 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
... but he doesn't know why, so I will do some OLCsplaining for him.
He claims some pilots (motorglider pilots, of course) are taking unfair advantage by climbing waaay up into the sky, so they have all that "unearned" altitude to make distance and improve their OLC score. Prior to the 2022 season, that wasn'
without any consideration of the height difference. For points, that distance is handicapped as usual, and a fraction of it is added to the OLC-Plus score, just like the FAI triangle bonus.That changed for the 2022 season, when they added another bonus to the OLC-Plus score called "OLC-Distance Course". That's measured from the start of soaring (tow release or engine stopped) to the flight point that is the farthest away,
incentive for glider pilots to take high tows!So, Bob is right that you can increase your (OLC-Plus) score by a high start, but he's wrong that it's unfair: it's in the rules and available to every pilot, whether towed or self-launched. As towplane owner, he should be delighted at this
excuse something similar to what my engineer PE son would say. Us PURIST don't' take motorglider height tows, as I stated before I would be embarrassed to record such a flight. No need for any OLCsplaining, it was a teachable moment for me, you areSeem like the WOKE WORLD of MOTORGLIDING is eating a bit of humble pie. Greenie, I tried to explain to you in the very beginning that the score reflected on the graph at the release altitude and you came back with some kind of engineering
highest you are willing to tow someone?I am surprised that I was the first one to point out the important difference between the OLC-distance course and the other courses. Many, maybe most, pilots aren't aware that OLC-distance does not have height restrictions.
My OLCsplaining to Old Bob was inadequate for the task, I think, as you (apparently) still do not understand the situation. I am curious about your committment to "fairness": If someone asked for a 10,000' AGL tow, would you refuse? What is the
Cordele after a few days of enjoying the activity, the high tow scenario was the topic of discussion at one dinner outing and even the motorglider guys agreed with Old Bob.It was a teachable moment for me but Eric was not listening to my lecture. You should have looked at the graph of the flight and you would have seen that the distance was calculated from the start of the vertical red line. I just returned from
name the distances that make up the OLC-Plus score? Don't feel bad if you can't, as most pilots posting on the OLC don't seem to know what they are, either. I wasn't aware of it, either, until last week.Webster gives a pretty good definition of the word fairness, go do your homework, I am just trying to enlighten you a bit. OBTP"What we have here is a failure to communicate": you kept saying "distance", but everyone thought you meant "OLC classic distance", or maybe "OLC-Plus distance". You still don't seem to understand the "distances" that comprise OLC-Plus. Can you
I got it right, didn't I? You stumbled around for a week, glad I made a difference. OBTPI am glad I was responsible for increasing your awareness as to the Distance Category. OBTPStill getting it wrong...
Wouldn’t that be the case also with regular sustainers? I understand they too may not be able to cross some of the ranges in the Great Basin, especially when waiting until low to start. Or so they tell me.that wasn't possible, because the rules for distance portion (OLC Classic) and the triangle portion of the OLC score (officially the "OLC-Plus" score) required a maximum of 1000M height between the start and endpoints.
Ramy
On Tuesday, June 6, 2023 at 7:49:02 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Monday, June 5, 2023 at 8:55:40 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On Monday, June 5, 2023 at 6:09:23 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Monday, June 5, 2023 at 7:36:44 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On Sunday, June 4, 2023 at 10:12:05 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Saturday, June 3, 2023 at 9:08:17 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On Saturday, June 3, 2023 at 5:10:09 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Saturday, June 3, 2023 at 8:19:28 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On Friday, June 2, 2023 at 12:55:36 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Friday, June 2, 2023 at 11:15:40 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
... but he doesn't know why, so I will do some OLCsplaining for him.
He claims some pilots (motorglider pilots, of course) are taking unfair advantage by climbing waaay up into the sky, so they have all that "unearned" altitude to make distance and improve their OLC score. Prior to the 2022 season,
away, without any consideration of the height difference. For points, that distance is handicapped as usual, and a fraction of it is added to the OLC-Plus score, just like the FAI triangle bonus.That changed for the 2022 season, when they added another bonus to the OLC-Plus score called "OLC-Distance Course". That's measured from the start of soaring (tow release or engine stopped) to the flight point that is the farthest
at this incentive for glider pilots to take high tows!So, Bob is right that you can increase your (OLC-Plus) score by a high start, but he's wrong that it's unfair: it's in the rules and available to every pilot, whether towed or self-launched. As towplane owner, he should be delighted
engineering excuse something similar to what my engineer PE son would say. Us PURIST don't' take motorglider height tows, as I stated before I would be embarrassed to record such a flight. No need for any OLCsplaining, it was a teachable moment for me,Seem like the WOKE WORLD of MOTORGLIDING is eating a bit of humble pie. Greenie, I tried to explain to you in the very beginning that the score reflected on the graph at the release altitude and you came back with some kind of
or so, because it's really cheap and easy to do; and FES pilots will often putter around at 1000'-1500' AGL until they find a thermal, to maximize their remaining battery capacity.There is an interesting variation in typical launch heights between the different types of motorgliders and their pilots. Some will take the usual 2000 AGL launch, knowing they can easily restart if needed; some will take an extra 1000'
obvious factors), they still might get off tow at 1000-1500 to save a bunch of bucks.I've observed "range anxiety" is determined more by the pilot than the equipment; e.g., I've known 1-26 pilots with less concern for range than some 18M pilots.FES pilots have "range anxiety" and often take tows to maximize retrieve range. My goal while launching is to get on course ASAP; scratching around at low altitude is an anathema to this end.
Tom 2GIt's generally the upowered glider pilots that have the greatest "range anxiety"; FES pilots are grinning like Cheshire Cats because they have 50-100km more range than when they were powerless. Depending on how tows are charged (and other
site. A tow will cut into their already limited range. And you are assuming that they have no mountain range to climb over, which pretty much eliminates any possibility of self-retrieve.If they are "grinning" then why are they taking tows? You don't have to answer because they have already told me: they are keeping their limited battery energy in reserve for a retrieve, or at least to get to an airport or a safe out-landing
fuselage tank, or glider pilots that get the 18M tips instead of just using the 15M tips. The FES pilots I've talked to don't have "range anxiety"; instead, their anxiety is reduced, because they can more easily avoid landouts and retrieves.Tom 2GThey are grinning because the FES glider gives them options they did not have with their towed glider. Some of them take tows to extend those options. I liken it to motorglider pilots that buy optional wing fuel tanks, instead of just using the
"range anxiety" if the ASW19 had been FES equipped?I'm sure it's tough for a "belt and suspenders" (21M wings and wing fuel tanks) person, such as yourself, to grasp the value of the FES glider, with it's much smaller powered range. Try to recall flying in your ASW19: wouldn't you have had less
range would have exhausted his battery capacity. Instead, he used his battery to scout for a safe outlanding site. Was this better than the pilot who was forced to land his pure glider in the same general area? Of course.I know of a Mini Lak FES pilot who could not get back to Ely and he was only 50 miles out. He took a tow to preserve his battery capacity, but a small mountain range stood between him and home. Just climbing the required altitude to clear the
on the difference between it and the 26e.You can play with semantics all you want, but the fact remains the FES pilots DO have range anxiety when you are flying in high desert country. You haven't flown your electric yet (even after 3 years waiting), but once you do you can report back
Eric, are you out of your f**king mind? It doesn't matter WHAT record he was trying to achieve, he COULDN'T self-retrieve from 50 miles, your "sweet zone" for FES gliders.Tom 2GGood Lord, Tom, he was trying to fly Big Records (like a 1000k) in a Small Glider (13.5M!) THAT was his problem, not the FES range! When you fly for records, getting home is a much smaller priority than it is in non-task flying.
Tom 2G
On Tuesday, June 6, 2023 at 10:35:21 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:retrieve in this area.
Wouldn’t that be the case also with regular sustainers? I understand they too may not be able to cross some of the ranges in the Great Basin, especially when waiting until low to start. Or so they tell me.
RamyIt might be. Sustainers don't have the power to climb, just maintain altitude. But their power also drops with altitude, so they might not be able to do that at the altitudes we fly at in the Western US high desert. I haven't witnessed a sustainer self-
Tom 2GAll sustainers I'm aware of can climb at least 200-300 fpm at sea level. The combustion powered ones do lose power as density altitude increases, but the electric ones do not. The FES - Front Engine Sustainer - system has added a gray area between
On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 9:12:12 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:self-retrieve in this area.
On Tuesday, June 6, 2023 at 10:35:21 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
Wouldn’t that be the case also with regular sustainers? I understand they too may not be able to cross some of the ranges in the Great Basin, especially when waiting until low to start. Or so they tell me.It might be. Sustainers don't have the power to climb, just maintain altitude. But their power also drops with altitude, so they might not be able to do that at the altitudes we fly at in the Western US high desert. I haven't witnessed a sustainer
Ramy
sustainer and self-launch, as some are powerful enough to self-launch. Maybe the FES should mean "front engine system".All sustainers I'm aware of can climb at least 200-300 fpm at sea level. The combustion powered ones do lose power as density altitude increases, but the electric ones do not. The FES - Front Engine Sustainer - system has added a gray area between
Tom 2G
Whereas motor power does not decline with altitude, propeller and wing efficiency do. The result is reduced or no climb capability at higher altitudes.self-retrieve in this area.
Dan
5J
On 6/8/23 07:30, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 9:12:12 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Tuesday, June 6, 2023 at 10:35:21 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
Wouldn’t that be the case also with regular sustainers? I understand they too may not be able to cross some of the ranges in the Great Basin, especially when waiting until low to start. Or so they tell me.It might be. Sustainers don't have the power to climb, just maintain altitude. But their power also drops with altitude, so they might not be able to do that at the altitudes we fly at in the Western US high desert. I haven't witnessed a sustainer
Ramy
sustainer and self-launch, as some are powerful enough to self-launch. Maybe the FES should mean "front engine system".All sustainers I'm aware of can climb at least 200-300 fpm at sea level. The combustion powered ones do lose power as density altitude increases, but the electric ones do not. The FES - Front Engine Sustainer - system has added a gray area between
Tom 2G
Whereas motor power does not decline with altitude, propeller and wing efficiency do. The result is reduced or no climb capability at higher altitudes.self-retrieve in this area.
Dan
5J
On 6/8/23 07:30, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 9:12:12 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Tuesday, June 6, 2023 at 10:35:21 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
Wouldn’t that be the case also with regular sustainers? I understand they too may not be able to cross some of the ranges in the Great Basin, especially when waiting until low to start. Or so they tell me.It might be. Sustainers don't have the power to climb, just maintain altitude. But their power also drops with altitude, so they might not be able to do that at the altitudes we fly at in the Western US high desert. I haven't witnessed a sustainer
Ramy
sustainer and self-launch, as some are powerful enough to self-launch. Maybe the FES should mean "front engine system".All sustainers I'm aware of can climb at least 200-300 fpm at sea level. The combustion powered ones do lose power as density altitude increases, but the electric ones do not. The FES - Front Engine Sustainer - system has added a gray area between
Tom 2G
On Thursday, June 8, 2023 at 7:12:32 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:self-retrieve in this area.
Whereas motor power does not decline with altitude, propeller and wing efficiency do. The result is reduced or no climb capability at higher altitudes.
Dan
5J
On 6/8/23 07:30, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 9:12:12 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Tuesday, June 6, 2023 at 10:35:21 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
Wouldn’t that be the case also with regular sustainers? I understand they too may not be able to cross some of the ranges in the Great Basin, especially when waiting until low to start. Or so they tell me.It might be. Sustainers don't have the power to climb, just maintain altitude. But their power also drops with altitude, so they might not be able to do that at the altitudes we fly at in the Western US high desert. I haven't witnessed a sustainer
Ramy
sustainer and self-launch, as some are powerful enough to self-launch. Maybe the FES should mean "front engine system".All sustainers I'm aware of can climb at least 200-300 fpm at sea level. The combustion powered ones do lose power as density altitude increases, but the electric ones do not. The FES - Front Engine Sustainer - system has added a gray area between
Tom 2G
You ae still much better off with 100% of your power at a 10,000' density altitude, than only 80%. At high elevation airports like Ely and Parowan (6000 feet) in the summer, you often have to launch at that 80%. For self-retrieves, where you might beat 10,000' MSL (and 30% loss of power), it will harder to clear that mountain or fight downdrafts. Kind of like having flat-rated turbocharged enging, eh?
On Thursday, June 8, 2023 at 7:12:32 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:self-retrieve in this area.
Whereas motor power does not decline with altitude, propeller and wing efficiency do. The result is reduced or no climb capability at higher altitudes.
Dan
5J
On 6/8/23 07:30, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 9:12:12 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Tuesday, June 6, 2023 at 10:35:21 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
Wouldn’t that be the case also with regular sustainers? I understand they too may not be able to cross some of the ranges in the Great Basin, especially when waiting until low to start. Or so they tell me.It might be. Sustainers don't have the power to climb, just maintain altitude. But their power also drops with altitude, so they might not be able to do that at the altitudes we fly at in the Western US high desert. I haven't witnessed a sustainer
Ramy
sustainer and self-launch, as some are powerful enough to self-launch. Maybe the FES should mean "front engine system".All sustainers I'm aware of can climb at least 200-300 fpm at sea level. The combustion powered ones do lose power as density altitude increases, but the electric ones do not. The FES - Front Engine Sustainer - system has added a gray area between
Tom 2G
You ae still much better off with 100% of your power at a 10,000' density altitude, than only 80%. At high elevation airports like Ely and Parowan (6000 feet) in the summer, you often have to launch at that 80%. For self-retrieves, where you might beat 10,000' MSL (and 30% loss of power), it will harder to clear that mountain or fight downdrafts. Kind of like having flat-rated turbocharged enging, eh?
On Thursday, June 8, 2023 at 1:18:28 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:sustainer self-retrieve in this area.
On Thursday, June 8, 2023 at 7:12:32 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
Whereas motor power does not decline with altitude, propeller and wing efficiency do. The result is reduced or no climb capability at higher altitudes.
Dan
5J
On 6/8/23 07:30, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 9:12:12 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Tuesday, June 6, 2023 at 10:35:21 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
Wouldn’t that be the case also with regular sustainers? I understand they too may not be able to cross some of the ranges in the Great Basin, especially when waiting until low to start. Or so they tell me.It might be. Sustainers don't have the power to climb, just maintain altitude. But their power also drops with altitude, so they might not be able to do that at the altitudes we fly at in the Western US high desert. I haven't witnessed a
Ramy
between sustainer and self-launch, as some are powerful enough to self-launch. Maybe the FES should mean "front engine system".All sustainers I'm aware of can climb at least 200-300 fpm at sea level. The combustion powered ones do lose power as density altitude increases, but the electric ones do not. The FES - Front Engine Sustainer - system has added a gray area
Tom 2G
at 10,000' MSL (and 30% loss of power), it will harder to clear that mountain or fight downdrafts. Kind of like having flat-rated turbocharged enging, eh?You ae still much better off with 100% of your power at a 10,000' density altitude, than only 80%. At high elevation airports like Ely and Parowan (6000 feet) in the summer, you often have to launch at that 80%. For self-retrieves, where you might be
Once you cut through the BS, all this boils down to the practical retrieve range of electrics is considerably shorter than advertised. Having extra margin is well worth it when you are flying in tiger country. I recall you asking me how I knew I had alandable field below me just a few miles from Ely. My answer: I prepared for it; your reply: I always return to Ely high and don't need to worry about it.
Tom 2GWhy aren't you ragging on the towed glider pilots? Their practical retrieve range is Zero.
On Thursday, June 8, 2023 at 4:18:28 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:sustainer self-retrieve in this area.
On Thursday, June 8, 2023 at 7:12:32 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
Whereas motor power does not decline with altitude, propeller and wing efficiency do. The result is reduced or no climb capability at higher altitudes.
Dan
5J
On 6/8/23 07:30, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 9:12:12 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Tuesday, June 6, 2023 at 10:35:21 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
Wouldn’t that be the case also with regular sustainers? I understand they too may not be able to cross some of the ranges in the Great Basin, especially when waiting until low to start. Or so they tell me.It might be. Sustainers don't have the power to climb, just maintain altitude. But their power also drops with altitude, so they might not be able to do that at the altitudes we fly at in the Western US high desert. I haven't witnessed a
Ramy
between sustainer and self-launch, as some are powerful enough to self-launch. Maybe the FES should mean "front engine system".All sustainers I'm aware of can climb at least 200-300 fpm at sea level. The combustion powered ones do lose power as density altitude increases, but the electric ones do not. The FES - Front Engine Sustainer - system has added a gray area
Tom 2G
at 10,000' MSL (and 30% loss of power), it will harder to clear that mountain or fight downdrafts. Kind of like having flat-rated turbocharged enging, eh?You ae still much better off with 100% of your power at a 10,000' density altitude, than only 80%. At high elevation airports like Ely and Parowan (6000 feet) in the summer, you often have to launch at that 80%. For self-retrieves, where you might be
Eric, now IzaBee looking for answers, how do you get 100% power at 10K? IzaBee, looking for answers. OBTPElectric motors get their power from batteries, and the batteries are not affected by the air density.
On Thursday, June 8, 2023 at 7:15:54 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:sustainer self-retrieve in this area.
On Thursday, June 8, 2023 at 1:18:28 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On Thursday, June 8, 2023 at 7:12:32 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
Whereas motor power does not decline with altitude, propeller and wing efficiency do. The result is reduced or no climb capability at higher altitudes.
Dan
5J
On 6/8/23 07:30, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 9:12:12 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Tuesday, June 6, 2023 at 10:35:21 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
Wouldn’t that be the case also with regular sustainers? I understand they too may not be able to cross some of the ranges in the Great Basin, especially when waiting until low to start. Or so they tell me.It might be. Sustainers don't have the power to climb, just maintain altitude. But their power also drops with altitude, so they might not be able to do that at the altitudes we fly at in the Western US high desert. I haven't witnessed a
Ramy
between sustainer and self-launch, as some are powerful enough to self-launch. Maybe the FES should mean "front engine system".All sustainers I'm aware of can climb at least 200-300 fpm at sea level. The combustion powered ones do lose power as density altitude increases, but the electric ones do not. The FES - Front Engine Sustainer - system has added a gray area
Tom 2G
be at 10,000' MSL (and 30% loss of power), it will harder to clear that mountain or fight downdrafts. Kind of like having flat-rated turbocharged enging, eh?You ae still much better off with 100% of your power at a 10,000' density altitude, than only 80%. At high elevation airports like Ely and Parowan (6000 feet) in the summer, you often have to launch at that 80%. For self-retrieves, where you might
a landable field below me just a few miles from Ely. My answer: I prepared for it; your reply: I always return to Ely high and don't need to worry about it.Once you cut through the BS, all this boils down to the practical retrieve range of electrics is considerably shorter than advertised. Having extra margin is well worth it when you are flying in tiger country. I recall you asking me how I knew I had
Eric, there you go again talking trash about towed glider pilots, when will you ever learn, towed glider pilots are much more capable of flying than those self launch guys and gals. OBTPTom 2GWhy aren't you ragging on the towed glider pilots? Their practical retrieve range is Zero.
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