I was looking for property on an airport and I see that SLGP is being advertised for sale at just under a cool four million. Well, until someone comes along who needs to buy an American based business to gain a visa I don't think it's gonna happen.

I also noticed that Shawn's house is up for sale. Not sure about the house but the hangar is awesome. Currently I have an offer in on another place.

Walt Connelly

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On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 7:28:23 AM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:

I was looking for property on an airport and I see that SLGP is being advertised for sale at just under a cool four million. Well, until someone comes along who needs to buy an American based business to gain a visa I don't think it's gonna happen.

I also noticed that Shawn's house is up for sale. Not sure about the house but the hangar is awesome. Currently I have an offer in on another place.

Walt Connelly

SLGP has been on the market for several years w/o ANY takers, even in the recent hot real-estate market. That tells you that:
1. It is over-priced.
2. The title is in question.
3. Or both.
I vote for 3. The escapades of the owner are well-known and have been discussed at length on RAS (to the point of me being threatened with a frivolous lawsuit).

Tom 2G

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I don't think the title is a problem if you have adequate title insurance. I used to do title searches (one of those many jobs we all (or most of us anyway) had trying to get thru college) for a title company and we did them often back to the Spanish
Land Grants. If it has not been claimed by Romania by now it most likely won't be. If Mihai is walking around free in the land of Vlad the Impaler, the winds of political change helped his cause or so I was informed by highly placed sources.

The problem I ran into when trying to put together a group of well heeled types (too many lawyers and ONE was too many) was knowing that essentially it looked like the facility would have to remain and be operated as a glider-port because people bought
land and built houses with that expectation. Another economic downturn could spell disaster for this business as well as many others. In short you could not sell off the tow planes and gliders and sell the property for some other use like a trailer
park or RV park. This is what happened to the small airport and flight school I managed while in college, it is now an RV park. It was thriving when I left.

These are of course my CONSTITUTIONALLY PROTECTED OPINIONS.

Walt Connelly

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It is my understanding that ValAir, the soaring operation in Durango,
CO, was sold to someone who turned it into a prairie dog sanctuary.

Somebody, please tell me that that is wrong, factually, not morally.

Dan
5J

On 5/11/23 09:27, [email protected] wrote:

I don't think the title is a problem if you have adequate title insurance. I used to do title searches (one of those many jobs we all (or most of us anyway) had trying to get thru college) for a title company and we did them often back to the Spanish

Land Grants. If it has not been claimed by Romania by now it most likely won't be. If Mihai is walking around free in the land of Vlad the Impaler, the winds of political change helped his cause or so I was informed by highly placed sources.

The problem I ran into when trying to put together a group of well heeled types (too many lawyers and ONE was too many) was knowing that essentially it looked like the facility would have to remain and be operated as a glider-port because people bought

land and built houses with that expectation. Another economic downturn could spell disaster for this business as well as many others. In short you could not sell off the tow planes and gliders and sell the property for some other use like a trailer
park or RV park. This is what happened to the small airport and flight school I managed while in college, it is now an RV park. It was thriving when I left.

These are of course my CONSTITUTIONALLY PROTECTED OPINIONS.

Walt Connelly

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I almost blew my after lunch coffee out my nose!

Dan
5J

On 5/11/23 09:27, [email protected] wrote:

the land of Vlad the Impaler

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On Thursday, May 11, 2023 at 11:27:56 AM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:

I don't think the title is a problem if you have adequate title insurance. I used to do title searches (one of those many jobs we all (or most of us anyway) had trying to get thru college) for a title company and we did them often back to the Spanish

Land Grants. If it has not been claimed by Romania by now it most likely won't be. If Mihai is walking around free in the land of Vlad the Impaler, the winds of political change helped his cause or so I was informed by highly placed sources.

The problem I ran into when trying to put together a group of well heeled types (too many lawyers and ONE was too many) was knowing that essentially it looked like the facility would have to remain and be operated as a glider-port because people bought

land and built houses with that expectation. Another economic downturn could spell disaster for this business as well as many others. In short you could not sell off the tow planes and gliders and sell the property for some other use like a trailer park
or RV park. This is what happened to the small airport and flight school I managed while in college, it is now an RV park. It was thriving when I left.

These are of course my CONSTITUTIONALLY PROTECTED OPINIONS.

Walt Connelly

Most of us are in danger of losing our place to fly gliders unless we are a club that actually owns the property. In our case we do not own the property and were on the verge of having to relocate when the potential buyer pulled out in fear of a
recession. I also might add that the potential buyer could certainly afford the 11 million dollar purchase of the prime property in Vero Beach.
I am currently working to have our club own its own 10 acres on an existing 4000 foot grass strip within 10 miles of our current location. While airports are restricting the non motorized aircraft from operating at their location other favored glider
locations are being squeezed out through increased rent and operational restrictions.
What else can we expect from these ever increasing limitations, not only in locations, but also airspace. Where we once flew gliders in Miami and roamed thermals toward the old concrete plant at the end of Kendall drive is all absorbed within class B.
So, our sport is becoming smaller, more restrictive, and constantly challenging, I guess it still beats watching the squirrels eat my mangoes. OBTP

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On Thursday, May 11, 2023 at 1:34:01 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:

I almost blew my after lunch coffee out my nose!

Dan
5J
On 5/11/23 09:27, [email protected] wrote:

the land of Vlad the Impaler

Vlad really existed and a most unpleasant yet heroic figure in Romania, he gave new meaning to "Shish Kabob.". Vlad along with Zamfir, Master of the Pan Flute and "Mihai the Merciful," the Robin Hood of our time are legendary in Romania. I used to think
Transylvania was a mythical place and although Bram Stoker's Dracula was fictional, Transylvania is a real place in Romania, who wouldathunkit? Those crazy Romanians.

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On Thursday, May 11, 2023 at 8:27:56 AM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:

I don't think the title is a problem if you have adequate title insurance. I used to do title searches (one of those many jobs we all (or most of us anyway) had trying to get thru college) for a title company and we did them often back to the Spanish

Land Grants. If it has not been claimed by Romania by now it most likely won't be. If Mihai is walking around free in the land of Vlad the Impaler, the winds of political change helped his cause or so I was informed by highly placed sources.

The problem I ran into when trying to put together a group of well heeled types (too many lawyers and ONE was too many) was knowing that essentially it looked like the facility would have to remain and be operated as a glider-port because people bought

land and built houses with that expectation. Another economic downturn could spell disaster for this business as well as many others. In short you could not sell off the tow planes and gliders and sell the property for some other use like a trailer park
or RV park. This is what happened to the small airport and flight school I managed while in college, it is now an RV park. It was thriving when I left.

These are of course my CONSTITUTIONALLY PROTECTED OPINIONS.

Walt Connelly

Then you are voting for Number 1: it is over-priced. Fair enough. The proof of the pudding is what would be charged to get title insurance, which nobody has disclosed, or even if you could get said insurance.

I think Booby has nailed it: glider ports ARE NOT user friendly investments for a variety of reasons. This gets back to Reason No. 1: it is OVER-PRICED! If you have an uncertain investment you MUST lower the price to attract investors.

Tom 2G

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On Thu, 11 May 2023 15:35:52 -0700 (PDT), [email protected] wrote:

On Thursday, May 11, 2023 at 1:34:01 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:

I almost blew my after lunch coffee out my nose!

Dan 5J On 5/11/23 09:27, [email protected] wrote:

the land of Vlad the Impaler

Vlad really existed and a most unpleasant yet heroic figure in Romania,
he gave new meaning to "Shish Kabob.". Vlad along with Zamfir, Master of
the Pan Flute and "Mihai the Merciful," the Robin Hood of our time are legendary in Romania. I used to think Transylvania was a mythical place
and although Bram Stoker's Dracula was fictional, Transylvania is a real place in Romania, who wouldathunkit? Those crazy Romanians.

I've been to Romania a few times: nice place and people, romantically
ruined castles in Transylvania too, I visited it first on the way to
Turkey (yes, I know it's not the most direct route: that's via the former Yugoslavia and a somewhat boring one) and also for free flight model competitions. However, Romania does have a remarkably poor track record
when it comes to choosing leaders: stack up Nicolae Ceaușescu and his
terrible orphanages alongside Vlad.


--

Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

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On Friday, May 12, 2023 at 4:24:08 AM UTC-4, Martin Gregorie wrote:

On Thu, 11 May 2023 15:35:52 -0700 (PDT), [email protected] wrote:

On Thursday, May 11, 2023 at 1:34:01 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:

I almost blew my after lunch coffee out my nose!

Dan 5J On 5/11/23 09:27, [email protected] wrote:

the land of Vlad the Impaler

Vlad really existed and a most unpleasant yet heroic figure in Romania,
he gave new meaning to "Shish Kabob.". Vlad along with Zamfir, Master of the Pan Flute and "Mihai the Merciful," the Robin Hood of our time are legendary in Romania. I used to think Transylvania was a mythical place and although Bram Stoker's Dracula was fictional, Transylvania is a real place in Romania, who wouldathunkit? Those crazy Romanians.

I've been to Romania a few times: nice place and people, romantically
ruined castles in Transylvania too, I visited it first on the way to
Turkey (yes, I know it's not the most direct route: that's via the former Yugoslavia and a somewhat boring one) and also for free flight model competitions. However, Romania does have a remarkably poor track record
when it comes to choosing leaders: stack up Nicolae Ceaușescu and his terrible orphanages alongside Vlad.

--

Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

They have an excellent track record on how to handle leaders after their trial. Just my Constitutionally protected opinion.

Walt Connelly

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On Friday, May 12, 2023 at 1:17:26 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote:

On Thursday, May 11, 2023 at 8:27:56 AM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:

I don't think the title is a problem if you have adequate title insurance. I used to do title searches (one of those many jobs we all (or most of us anyway) had trying to get thru college) for a title company and we did them often back to the Spanish

Land Grants. If it has not been claimed by Romania by now it most likely won't be. If Mihai is walking around free in the land of Vlad the Impaler, the winds of political change helped his cause or so I was informed by highly placed sources.

The problem I ran into when trying to put together a group of well heeled types (too many lawyers and ONE was too many) was knowing that essentially it looked like the facility would have to remain and be operated as a glider-port because people

bought land and built houses with that expectation. Another economic downturn could spell disaster for this business as well as many others. In short you could not sell off the tow planes and gliders and sell the property for some other use like a
trailer park or RV park. This is what happened to the small airport and flight school I managed while in college, it is now an RV park. It was thriving when I left.

These are of course my CONSTITUTIONALLY PROTECTED OPINIONS.

Walt Connelly

Then you are voting for Number 1: it is over-priced. Fair enough. The proof of the pudding is what would be charged to get title insurance, which nobody has disclosed, or even if you could get said insurance.

I think Booby has nailed it: glider ports ARE NOT user friendly investments for a variety of reasons. This gets back to Reason No. 1: it is OVER-PRICED! If you have an uncertain investment you MUST lower the price to attract investors.

Tom 2G

I got a very good education on how to value a business during a few talks with people I was trying to interest in purchasing said facility. Lawyers have a unique way of looking into the deepest, darkest crevices of which there are many. There are a
couple of methods or starting points, one is 1 to 5 times the yearly income of said business and another is assets minus liabilities. Again, both only starting points. One of the problems with valuing the land as an asset is the probability of not
being able to repurpose it going forward. The on site home owners are not going to stand idly by as it is converted into a mobile home/RV park. It would make a fine one though, already has a pool and hangars could serve as maintenance facilities for RVs.


You would of course have to have a good private accountant inspect the past financial records along with a real estate attorney. Never underestimate the value of a good real estate attorney in any purchase or sale. If the title company would for some
reason balk at writing title insurance, that would be an eye opener. I'm betting that would not be a problem at this point. I'm afraid any owners going forward will be stuck with a Gliderport.

The one positive would be as other commercial operations meet their demise, SLGP would most likely be able to continue operation. Not withstanding a severe economic downturn. These are of course my Constitutionally protected opinions.

Walt

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On Thursday, May 11, 2023 at 11:37:21 AM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:

It is my understanding that ValAir, the soaring operation in Durango,
CO, was sold to someone who turned it into a prairie dog sanctuary.

Somebody, please tell me that that is wrong, factually, not morally.
Dan
5J

Yep, conservation easement. A wealthy gal across the road who was tired of the activity. The St Clair's did try to sell it as an operation, but didn't wait very long before parting it out. It closed in 2014. LaVerne St. Clair passed away in 2015
after parting out the fleet. At the time, I personally thought the asking price was high for flood plain adjacent to the river where no permanent construction was allowable.

Frank Whiteley

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On Fri, 12 May 2023 05:03:51 -0700 (PDT), [email protected] wrote:

They have an excellent track record on how to handle leaders after their trial. Just my Constitutionally protected opinion.

No argument here.

My first visit to Romania was in 1977. Then it looked much more prosperous
that Hungary and fairly stable: but that was before Ceaușescu started to
get careless and too big for his boots, the news got out about the
childrens' homes, his cronies got greedy and consequently he, his missus
and cronies all got the bullet.

I'd been in Bulgaria in 1975 (FF WC, flying F1A: for NZ and got my first
'full house' score during the rounds', but I digress). Then, all the
rental cars in Bulgaria were Romanian license-built Fiats.

This century Romania, now it and Hungary are in the EU, has changed out of
all recognition: IIRC I've been back there 3 times since 2000, again for
Free Flight competitions.


--

Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

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I achieved my Gold Altitude there.

Dan
5J

On 5/12/23 07:50, Frank Whiteley wrote:

On Thursday, May 11, 2023 at 11:37:21 AM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:

It is my understanding that ValAir, the soaring operation in Durango,
CO, was sold to someone who turned it into a prairie dog sanctuary.

Somebody, please tell me that that is wrong, factually, not morally.
Dan
5J

Yep, conservation easement. A wealthy gal across the road who was tired of the activity. The St Clair's did try to sell it as an operation, but didn't wait very long before parting it out. It closed in 2014. LaVerne St. Clair passed away in 2015

after parting out the fleet. At the time, I personally thought the asking price was high for flood plain adjacent to the river where no permanent construction was allowable.

Frank Whiteley

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