Yup, I said it. It was a halfway decent day at Moriarty today and onlyYou trying to Troll my buddy Bob? Personally I would rather stay on the ground.
two gliders got airborne. And wouldn't you know it? They were both
damned motorgliders.
Now that Sundance Aviation has closed its doors, the new owners are
working on getting the new operation going. It'll probably be a while
before there are week day tows and so those damned motorgliders will get
all of the fun between weekends.
--
Dan
5J
On Monday, April 17, 2023 at 3:58:43 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
Yup, I said it. It was a halfway decent day at Moriarty today and onlyYou trying to Troll my buddy Bob? Personally I would rather stay on the ground.
two gliders got airborne. And wouldn't you know it? They were both
damned motorgliders.
Now that Sundance Aviation has closed its doors, the new owners are
working on getting the new operation going. It'll probably be a while
before there are week day tows and so those damned motorgliders will get
all of the fun between weekends.
--
Dan
5J
Charlie
On Monday, April 17, 2023 at 3:58:43 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:Can you believe that Dan, my friend is trolling OBTP! Being one of Miami's finest that is what we do when we fish, TROLL, sometimes we catch and sometimes we don't.
Yup, I said it. It was a halfway decent day at Moriarty today and only
two gliders got airborne. And wouldn't you know it? They were both
damned motorgliders.
Now that Sundance Aviation has closed its doors, the new owners are working on getting the new operation going. It'll probably be a while before there are week day tows and so those damned motorgliders will get all of the fun between weekends.
--You trying to Troll my buddy Bob? Personally I would rather stay on the ground.
Dan
5J
Charlie
On Monday, April 17, 2023 at 8:01:17 PM UTC-4, Charles Longley wrote:and Gordon Boettger tearing up the skies above the western skies of Minden. I said to myself these guys are all flying Motorgliders and that in and of itself is cheating. Now there is JJ saying that his scores have increased since he went to the dark
On Monday, April 17, 2023 at 3:58:43 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:Can you believe that Dan, my friend is trolling OBTP! Being one of Miami's finest that is what we do when we fish, TROLL, sometimes we catch and sometimes we don't.
Yup, I said it. It was a halfway decent day at Moriarty today and onlyYou trying to Troll my buddy Bob? Personally I would rather stay on the ground.
two gliders got airborne. And wouldn't you know it? They were both
damned motorgliders.
Now that Sundance Aviation has closed its doors, the new owners are
working on getting the new operation going. It'll probably be a while
before there are week day tows and so those damned motorgliders will get >>> all of the fun between weekends.
--
Dan
5J
Charlie
Now about yesterday, I was watching the OGN network after a hard day of working in the mango grove and I did see Dan trolling along in that motorglider and enjoying the afternoon in the cool skies above Moriarity, then I looked west and noticed Jim Lee
I moved to a MG last Aug and I'm truly enjoying the self-launch freedom (and the better performance vs my previous glider). However, I'll concede a few points the purists make based on my limited experience to-date.owners aren't mechanically inclined (or simply disinclined) and not really able/willing to identify and address minor degradation issues until they become quite noticeable. Typical: slop in the controls, bad radio, scratched up canopy, low tire pressure,
1) Expensive, Complicated: It takes a commitment to learn and properly maintain a MG. I've seen a number of non-motorized gliders that are maintained sufficiently to pass annual inspections but not really kept in top form by their owners. Often, the
2) Much more pre-flight tasks: Aside from all the motor and prop-related inspections and prep like fueling and oil, the glider has a more readiness demands. It needs multiple batteries to maintain/charge. It's heavy so I can't push it out to the lineby myself anymore. At my site I need to tow it out, return and stow my vehicle, then find my way back out to line. Pre-launch and launch checklists are very lengthy with more critical steps. I'm now responsible for all the launch related responsibilities
3) XC Confidence Advantage: Sorry if this offends some but I am definitely experiencing a distinct confidence boost in my XC decisions. I've had a number of flights that I've pressed on with under conditions I would have avoided previously due tohigher potential to landout. Once I have a safe arrival altitude over the next bail out site, I go for it knowing my motor will most likely start and get me home if things don't pan out. I find a 2-300km OLC day in my previous glider becomes 4-500km in
I'm not sure how I feel about the 'XC confidence advantage'. On one hand, I'm soaring and achieving the distance results without use of the motor. I've worked my butt off to get these longer flights and under pretty marginable conditions. On the otherhand, knowing I'm getting home certainly relieves a lot of the stress I used to experience when pushing it - which is a big performance factor for me. I suspect that top pilots have an ability to compartmentalize and deal with potential landout stress
Eric Greenwell's excellent guide covers these points and a lot more very well and I highly recommend the read. I think I have the right disposition to own and maintain a MG responsibly. For sure I am going to wring out every XC mile I can from mine.What you were suffering from is Retrieve Anxiety. This is where you turn back because you fear the inconvenience of a retrieve. Provided you were flying with an airport or known good field within easy glide, this has nothing to do with safety, merely
JJ
What you were suffering from is Retrieve Anxiety. This is where you turn back because you fear the inconvenience of a retrieve...
On Tuesday, April 18, 2023 at 10:11:52 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:This came as a bit of a surprise to me. I thought my land out tolerance was pretty high. I have had a number of land outs in my first 3 glider seasons (and 100's in my 20+yrs of downwind hang gliding XC) and didn't think it was too big a deal. But the
What you were suffering from is Retrieve Anxiety. This is where you turn back because you fear the inconvenience of a retrieve...
Yes - I agree.
I initially thought that self-launch capability would be 90+% of the MG benefit but came to realize that I'm now flying XC significantly more relaxed. The whole XC experience is more enjoyable knowing a retrieve hassle is much less likely to occur.
It's certainly true that a lot of retrieves are much cheaper than buying a MG. But I can afford it and the focus was on flying when a tow wasn't available and increasing my overall soaring enjoyment. The biggest concern for me: I might learn the hasslefactors of owning a complex MG would overcome the advantages and I would be saddled with an expensive glider I didn't enjoy that much. After 7mos, that fear is behind me and I'm truly enjoying this new environment. Maybe that will change when something
JJJohn what did you get? A reliable mg sounds like snake oil too me lol
Yup, I said it. It was a halfway decent day at Moriarty today and onlyWhile operations are transitioning to Merlin Aviation at Moriarty and yes our Pawnee is having some work done, we have made arrangements to have tows available 7 days a week. I do suggest that you give us a call or email in advance to confirm but again
two gliders got airborne. And wouldn't you know it? They were both
damned motorgliders.
Now that Sundance Aviation has closed its doors, the new owners are
working on getting the new operation going. It'll probably be a while
before there are week day tows and so those damned motorgliders will get
all of the fun between weekends.
--
Dan
5J
On Tuesday, April 18, 2023 at 10:11:52 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:This came as a bit of a surprise to me. I thought my land out tolerance was pretty high. I have had a number of land outs in my first 3 glider seasons (and 100's in my 20+yrs of downwind hang gliding XC) and didn't think it was too big a deal. But the
What you were suffering from is Retrieve Anxiety. This is where you turn back because you fear the inconvenience of a retrieve...
Yes - I agree.
I initially thought that self-launch capability would be 90+% of the MG benefit but came to realize that I'm now flying XC significantly more relaxed. The whole XC experience is more enjoyable knowing a retrieve hassle is much less likely to occur.
It's certainly true that a lot of retrieves are much cheaper than buying a MG. But I can afford it and the focus was on flying when a tow wasn't available and increasing my overall soaring enjoyment. The biggest concern for me: I might learn the hasslefactors of owning a complex MG would overcome the advantages and I would be saddled with an expensive glider I didn't enjoy that much. After 7mos, that fear is behind me and I'm truly enjoying this new environment. Maybe that will change when something
JJThis is the very thing that Old Bob (in his regrettable ignorance) unknowingly complains about. It no doubt adds to OLC scores, or rather, Retrieve Anxiety detracts from OLC scores. It has nothing to do with safety or "saving your ass", unless the latter
On Monday, April 17, 2023 at 4:58:43 PM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:tows are available at Moriarty seven days a week.
Yup, I said it. It was a halfway decent day at Moriarty today and onlyWhile operations are transitioning to Merlin Aviation at Moriarty and yes our Pawnee is having some work done, we have made arrangements to have tows available 7 days a week. I do suggest that you give us a call or email in advance to confirm but again
two gliders got airborne. And wouldn't you know it? They were both
damned motorgliders.
Now that Sundance Aviation has closed its doors, the new owners are
working on getting the new operation going. It'll probably be a while
before there are week day tows and so those damned motorgliders will get
all of the fun between weekends.
--
Dan
5J
Whitney Van Brink
Merlin Aviation Inc
(505)226-5556
On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 3:00:56 PM UTC-7, John Johnson wrote:This came as a bit of a surprise to me. I thought my land out tolerance was pretty high. I have had a number of land outs in my first 3 glider seasons (and 100's in my 20+yrs of downwind hang gliding XC) and didn't think it was too big a deal. But the
On Tuesday, April 18, 2023 at 10:11:52 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
What you were suffering from is Retrieve Anxiety. This is where you turn back because you fear the inconvenience of a retrieve...
Yes - I agree.
I initially thought that self-launch capability would be 90+% of the MG benefit but came to realize that I'm now flying XC significantly more relaxed. The whole XC experience is more enjoyable knowing a retrieve hassle is much less likely to occur.
hassle factors of owning a complex MG would overcome the advantages and I would be saddled with an expensive glider I didn't enjoy that much. After 7mos, that fear is behind me and I'm truly enjoying this new environment. Maybe that will change whenIt's certainly true that a lot of retrieves are much cheaper than buying a MG. But I can afford it and the focus was on flying when a tow wasn't available and increasing my overall soaring enjoyment. The biggest concern for me: I might learn the
latter is qualified to "saving your ass from a tedious retrieve". In a real contest (not OLC!) a motorglider is at a distinct disadvantage, carrying ballast that cannot be dumped.JJThis is the very thing that Old Bob (in his regrettable ignorance) unknowingly complains about. It no doubt adds to OLC scores, or rather, Retrieve Anxiety detracts from OLC scores. It has nothing to do with safety or "saving your ass", unless the
On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 11:33:18 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:This came as a bit of a surprise to me. I thought my land out tolerance was pretty high. I have had a number of land outs in my first 3 glider seasons (and 100's in my 20+yrs of downwind hang gliding XC) and didn't think it was too big a deal. But the
On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 3:00:56 PM UTC-7, John Johnson wrote:
On Tuesday, April 18, 2023 at 10:11:52 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
What you were suffering from is Retrieve Anxiety. This is where you turn back because you fear the inconvenience of a retrieve...
Yes - I agree.
I initially thought that self-launch capability would be 90+% of the MG benefit but came to realize that I'm now flying XC significantly more relaxed. The whole XC experience is more enjoyable knowing a retrieve hassle is much less likely to occur.
hassle factors of owning a complex MG would overcome the advantages and I would be saddled with an expensive glider I didn't enjoy that much. After 7mos, that fear is behind me and I'm truly enjoying this new environment. Maybe that will change whenIt's certainly true that a lot of retrieves are much cheaper than buying a MG. But I can afford it and the focus was on flying when a tow wasn't available and increasing my overall soaring enjoyment. The biggest concern for me: I might learn the
latter is qualified to "saving your ass from a tedious retrieve". In a real contest (not OLC!) a motorglider is at a distinct disadvantage, carrying ballast that cannot be dumped.JJThis is the very thing that Old Bob (in his regrettable ignorance) unknowingly complains about. It no doubt adds to OLC scores, or rather, Retrieve Anxiety detracts from OLC scores. It has nothing to do with safety or "saving your ass", unless the
Fitch, are you ok??? Carrying water, is pretty much standard procedure in contest, and you certainly want to spend more time running than you do thermaling. Even a motorglider or sustainer has a cruise advantage over a non ballasted glider in thatscenario, go back to the basics of sailplane flight and even you may figure it out. Old Bob, The Purist
On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 11:33:18 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:This came as a bit of a surprise to me. I thought my land out tolerance was pretty high. I have had a number of land outs in my first 3 glider seasons (and 100's in my 20+yrs of downwind hang gliding XC) and didn't think it was too big a deal. But the
On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 3:00:56 PM UTC-7, John Johnson wrote:
On Tuesday, April 18, 2023 at 10:11:52 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
What you were suffering from is Retrieve Anxiety. This is where you turn back because you fear the inconvenience of a retrieve...
Yes - I agree.
I initially thought that self-launch capability would be 90+% of the MG benefit but came to realize that I'm now flying XC significantly more relaxed. The whole XC experience is more enjoyable knowing a retrieve hassle is much less likely to occur.
hassle factors of owning a complex MG would overcome the advantages and I would be saddled with an expensive glider I didn't enjoy that much. After 7mos, that fear is behind me and I'm truly enjoying this new environment. Maybe that will change whenIt's certainly true that a lot of retrieves are much cheaper than buying a MG. But I can afford it and the focus was on flying when a tow wasn't available and increasing my overall soaring enjoyment. The biggest concern for me: I might learn the
latter is qualified to "saving your ass from a tedious retrieve". In a real contest (not OLC!) a motorglider is at a distinct disadvantage, carrying ballast that cannot be dumped.JJThis is the very thing that Old Bob (in his regrettable ignorance) unknowingly complains about. It no doubt adds to OLC scores, or rather, Retrieve Anxiety detracts from OLC scores. It has nothing to do with safety or "saving your ass", unless the
Fitch, are you ok??? Carrying water, is pretty much standard procedure in contest, and you certainly want to spend more time running than you do thermaling. Even a motorglider or sustainer has a cruise advantage over a non ballasted glider in thatscenario, go back to the basics of sailplane flight and even you may figure it out. Old Bob, The Purist
On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 8:00:37 PM UTC-7, Jason Leonard wrote: John what did you get? A reliable mg sounds like snake oil too me lolAnd Schleicher owners have an great user newsgroup, complemented by the "tech site", a website with 130+ pages of maintenance information accumulated over 28 years of Wankel powered glider operation. If you have a problem, it's probably addressed on the
I bought an ASH 31 Mi from a local pilot who decided to go the other direction and is now flying a LS8. Aside from the performance, I really value having a MG glider with great domestic support via Rex and company at Williams.
JJ
On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 12:15:24 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:occur. This came as a bit of a surprise to me. I thought my land out tolerance was pretty high. I have had a number of land outs in my first 3 glider seasons (and 100's in my 20+yrs of downwind hang gliding XC) and didn't think it was too big a deal. But
On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 11:33:18 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 3:00:56 PM UTC-7, John Johnson wrote:
On Tuesday, April 18, 2023 at 10:11:52 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
What you were suffering from is Retrieve Anxiety. This is where you turn back because you fear the inconvenience of a retrieve...
Yes - I agree.
I initially thought that self-launch capability would be 90+% of the MG benefit but came to realize that I'm now flying XC significantly more relaxed. The whole XC experience is more enjoyable knowing a retrieve hassle is much less likely to
hassle factors of owning a complex MG would overcome the advantages and I would be saddled with an expensive glider I didn't enjoy that much. After 7mos, that fear is behind me and I'm truly enjoying this new environment. Maybe that will change whenIt's certainly true that a lot of retrieves are much cheaper than buying a MG. But I can afford it and the focus was on flying when a tow wasn't available and increasing my overall soaring enjoyment. The biggest concern for me: I might learn the
latter is qualified to "saving your ass from a tedious retrieve". In a real contest (not OLC!) a motorglider is at a distinct disadvantage, carrying ballast that cannot be dumped.JJThis is the very thing that Old Bob (in his regrettable ignorance) unknowingly complains about. It no doubt adds to OLC scores, or rather, Retrieve Anxiety detracts from OLC scores. It has nothing to do with safety or "saving your ass", unless the
scenario, go back to the basics of sailplane flight and even you may figure it out. Old Bob, The PuristFitch, are you ok??? Carrying water, is pretty much standard procedure in contest, and you certainly want to spend more time running than you do thermaling. Even a motorglider or sustainer has a cruise advantage over a non ballasted glider in that
Bob, you do realize that a SG has a wider range of wing loading available than a motorglider? Or maybe that is more ignorance showing. In strong conditions, between water and/or engine they are the same, in weak conditions they are most definitely not.Now we can even that out by requiring that the SG finish the contest with 200 lbs of ballast still aboard, to make it fair, if you'd prefer.
On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 6:28:48 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:occur. This came as a bit of a surprise to me. I thought my land out tolerance was pretty high. I have had a number of land outs in my first 3 glider seasons (and 100's in my 20+yrs of downwind hang gliding XC) and didn't think it was too big a deal. But
On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 12:15:24 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 11:33:18 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 3:00:56 PM UTC-7, John Johnson wrote:
On Tuesday, April 18, 2023 at 10:11:52 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
What you were suffering from is Retrieve Anxiety. This is where you turn back because you fear the inconvenience of a retrieve...
Yes - I agree.
I initially thought that self-launch capability would be 90+% of the MG benefit but came to realize that I'm now flying XC significantly more relaxed. The whole XC experience is more enjoyable knowing a retrieve hassle is much less likely to
the hassle factors of owning a complex MG would overcome the advantages and I would be saddled with an expensive glider I didn't enjoy that much. After 7mos, that fear is behind me and I'm truly enjoying this new environment. Maybe that will change whenIt's certainly true that a lot of retrieves are much cheaper than buying a MG. But I can afford it and the focus was on flying when a tow wasn't available and increasing my overall soaring enjoyment. The biggest concern for me: I might learn
the latter is qualified to "saving your ass from a tedious retrieve". In a real contest (not OLC!) a motorglider is at a distinct disadvantage, carrying ballast that cannot be dumped.JJThis is the very thing that Old Bob (in his regrettable ignorance) unknowingly complains about. It no doubt adds to OLC scores, or rather, Retrieve Anxiety detracts from OLC scores. It has nothing to do with safety or "saving your ass", unless
scenario, go back to the basics of sailplane flight and even you may figure it out. Old Bob, The PuristFitch, are you ok??? Carrying water, is pretty much standard procedure in contest, and you certainly want to spend more time running than you do thermaling. Even a motorglider or sustainer has a cruise advantage over a non ballasted glider in that
not. Now we can even that out by requiring that the SG finish the contest with 200 lbs of ballast still aboard, to make it fair, if you'd prefer.Bob, you do realize that a SG has a wider range of wing loading available than a motorglider? Or maybe that is more ignorance showing. In strong conditions, between water and/or engine they are the same, in weak conditions they are most definitely
Fitch, it's not what you know, it's what you don't know! I'll take that water on any good day, why wouldn't you??? Weight works to your advantage. Old Bob, The PuristWeight works to your advantage until it doesn't. Then it puts you in a field. Not such a problem in OLC, but can be a big problem in a real contest. You can't dump the engine. A single landout virtually guarantees 10 or 20 places lost in rankings the way
On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 6:28:48 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:occur. This came as a bit of a surprise to me. I thought my land out tolerance was pretty high. I have had a number of land outs in my first 3 glider seasons (and 100's in my 20+yrs of downwind hang gliding XC) and didn't think it was too big a deal. But
On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 12:15:24 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 11:33:18 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 3:00:56 PM UTC-7, John Johnson wrote:
On Tuesday, April 18, 2023 at 10:11:52 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
What you were suffering from is Retrieve Anxiety. This is where you turn back because you fear the inconvenience of a retrieve...
Yes - I agree.
I initially thought that self-launch capability would be 90+% of the MG benefit but came to realize that I'm now flying XC significantly more relaxed. The whole XC experience is more enjoyable knowing a retrieve hassle is much less likely to
the hassle factors of owning a complex MG would overcome the advantages and I would be saddled with an expensive glider I didn't enjoy that much. After 7mos, that fear is behind me and I'm truly enjoying this new environment. Maybe that will change whenIt's certainly true that a lot of retrieves are much cheaper than buying a MG. But I can afford it and the focus was on flying when a tow wasn't available and increasing my overall soaring enjoyment. The biggest concern for me: I might learn
the latter is qualified to "saving your ass from a tedious retrieve". In a real contest (not OLC!) a motorglider is at a distinct disadvantage, carrying ballast that cannot be dumped.JJThis is the very thing that Old Bob (in his regrettable ignorance) unknowingly complains about. It no doubt adds to OLC scores, or rather, Retrieve Anxiety detracts from OLC scores. It has nothing to do with safety or "saving your ass", unless
scenario, go back to the basics of sailplane flight and even you may figure it out. Old Bob, The PuristFitch, are you ok??? Carrying water, is pretty much standard procedure in contest, and you certainly want to spend more time running than you do thermaling. Even a motorglider or sustainer has a cruise advantage over a non ballasted glider in that
not. Now we can even that out by requiring that the SG finish the contest with 200 lbs of ballast still aboard, to make it fair, if you'd prefer.Bob, you do realize that a SG has a wider range of wing loading available than a motorglider? Or maybe that is more ignorance showing. In strong conditions, between water and/or engine they are the same, in weak conditions they are most definitely
Fitch, it's not what you know, it's what you don't know! I'll take that water on any good day, why wouldn't you??? Weight works to your advantage. Old Bob, The Purist
On Sunday, April 23, 2023 at 6:34:06 AM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:occur. This came as a bit of a surprise to me. I thought my land out tolerance was pretty high. I have had a number of land outs in my first 3 glider seasons (and 100's in my 20+yrs of downwind hang gliding XC) and didn't think it was too big a deal. But
On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 6:28:48 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 12:15:24 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 11:33:18 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 3:00:56 PM UTC-7, John Johnson wrote:
On Tuesday, April 18, 2023 at 10:11:52 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
What you were suffering from is Retrieve Anxiety. This is where you turn back because you fear the inconvenience of a retrieve...
Yes - I agree.
I initially thought that self-launch capability would be 90+% of the MG benefit but came to realize that I'm now flying XC significantly more relaxed. The whole XC experience is more enjoyable knowing a retrieve hassle is much less likely to
the hassle factors of owning a complex MG would overcome the advantages and I would be saddled with an expensive glider I didn't enjoy that much. After 7mos, that fear is behind me and I'm truly enjoying this new environment. Maybe that will change whenIt's certainly true that a lot of retrieves are much cheaper than buying a MG. But I can afford it and the focus was on flying when a tow wasn't available and increasing my overall soaring enjoyment. The biggest concern for me: I might learn
the latter is qualified to "saving your ass from a tedious retrieve". In a real contest (not OLC!) a motorglider is at a distinct disadvantage, carrying ballast that cannot be dumped.JJThis is the very thing that Old Bob (in his regrettable ignorance) unknowingly complains about. It no doubt adds to OLC scores, or rather, Retrieve Anxiety detracts from OLC scores. It has nothing to do with safety or "saving your ass", unless
that scenario, go back to the basics of sailplane flight and even you may figure it out. Old Bob, The PuristFitch, are you ok??? Carrying water, is pretty much standard procedure in contest, and you certainly want to spend more time running than you do thermaling. Even a motorglider or sustainer has a cruise advantage over a non ballasted glider in
not. Now we can even that out by requiring that the SG finish the contest with 200 lbs of ballast still aboard, to make it fair, if you'd prefer.Bob, you do realize that a SG has a wider range of wing loading available than a motorglider? Or maybe that is more ignorance showing. In strong conditions, between water and/or engine they are the same, in weak conditions they are most definitely
in the wind compared to with the engine. The issue is the wing loading was SO low that I couldn't get any kind of speed without sinking to 20:1, in a 45:1 glider.Fitch, it's not what you know, it's what you don't know! I'll take that water on any good day, why wouldn't you??? Weight works to your advantage. Old Bob, The Purist"Oh look!!! Another wing loading guru!!!!" That's what you said when I explained my slow cruise speed. Anything faster than 75kts and I was practically diving! So you DO acknowledge what I was perceiving? No engine in the glider and it felt like a leaf
One thing you didn't note is the CG advantage of an engine. The CG of a glider with an engine as opposed to wing ballast is obvious. Wing ballast can be accounted for using tail ballast, HOWEVER, you cannot add too much tail ballast to the aircraft,should you need to dump the water, thus leaving you outside of the safe (and legal) aft CG limits. So the pylon motor glider does have a CG advantage that helps offset it's weight by being further aft CG. In the case of the DG500, being a double seater,
Now that the engine is back in: you can REALLY feel the disadvantage. With two pilots and the engine it's even more so. If I had my druthers, though, I'd have that ridiculous Solo engine removed and never put it back in. But OBTB (baby) won't tow mycollosal beast, so I'm stuck self launching.
On Sunday, April 23, 2023 at 2:50:09 PM UTC-4, Jason Leonard wrote:to occur. This came as a bit of a surprise to me. I thought my land out tolerance was pretty high. I have had a number of land outs in my first 3 glider seasons (and 100's in my 20+yrs of downwind hang gliding XC) and didn't think it was too big a deal.
On Sunday, April 23, 2023 at 6:34:06 AM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 6:28:48 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 12:15:24 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 11:33:18 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 3:00:56 PM UTC-7, John Johnson wrote:
On Tuesday, April 18, 2023 at 10:11:52 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
What you were suffering from is Retrieve Anxiety. This is where you turn back because you fear the inconvenience of a retrieve...
Yes - I agree.
I initially thought that self-launch capability would be 90+% of the MG benefit but came to realize that I'm now flying XC significantly more relaxed. The whole XC experience is more enjoyable knowing a retrieve hassle is much less likely
learn the hassle factors of owning a complex MG would overcome the advantages and I would be saddled with an expensive glider I didn't enjoy that much. After 7mos, that fear is behind me and I'm truly enjoying this new environment. Maybe that will changeIt's certainly true that a lot of retrieves are much cheaper than buying a MG. But I can afford it and the focus was on flying when a tow wasn't available and increasing my overall soaring enjoyment. The biggest concern for me: I might
unless the latter is qualified to "saving your ass from a tedious retrieve". In a real contest (not OLC!) a motorglider is at a distinct disadvantage, carrying ballast that cannot be dumped.JJThis is the very thing that Old Bob (in his regrettable ignorance) unknowingly complains about. It no doubt adds to OLC scores, or rather, Retrieve Anxiety detracts from OLC scores. It has nothing to do with safety or "saving your ass",
that scenario, go back to the basics of sailplane flight and even you may figure it out. Old Bob, The PuristFitch, are you ok??? Carrying water, is pretty much standard procedure in contest, and you certainly want to spend more time running than you do thermaling. Even a motorglider or sustainer has a cruise advantage over a non ballasted glider in
definitely not. Now we can even that out by requiring that the SG finish the contest with 200 lbs of ballast still aboard, to make it fair, if you'd prefer.Bob, you do realize that a SG has a wider range of wing loading available than a motorglider? Or maybe that is more ignorance showing. In strong conditions, between water and/or engine they are the same, in weak conditions they are most
leaf in the wind compared to with the engine. The issue is the wing loading was SO low that I couldn't get any kind of speed without sinking to 20:1, in a 45:1 glider.Fitch, it's not what you know, it's what you don't know! I'll take that water on any good day, why wouldn't you??? Weight works to your advantage. Old Bob, The Purist"Oh look!!! Another wing loading guru!!!!" That's what you said when I explained my slow cruise speed. Anything faster than 75kts and I was practically diving! So you DO acknowledge what I was perceiving? No engine in the glider and it felt like a
should you need to dump the water, thus leaving you outside of the safe (and legal) aft CG limits. So the pylon motor glider does have a CG advantage that helps offset it's weight by being further aft CG. In the case of the DG500, being a double seater,One thing you didn't note is the CG advantage of an engine. The CG of a glider with an engine as opposed to wing ballast is obvious. Wing ballast can be accounted for using tail ballast, HOWEVER, you cannot add too much tail ballast to the aircraft,
collosal beast, so I'm stuck self launching.Now that the engine is back in: you can REALLY feel the disadvantage. With two pilots and the engine it's even more so. If I had my druthers, though, I'd have that ridiculous Solo engine removed and never put it back in. But OBTB (baby) won't tow my
There is more than one reason that I refused to tow you, it was a safety concern based on prior experiences with towing your Lead Sled. Having 14K volts of electricity staring me in the face is a big concern, your inability to realize a safety concernis another. I set a limit as to the max weight that MY tow plane would tow and that was the all up weight of the JS3's fully loaded with H2O and I even went a bit over that to tow you with your child. If I was your wife I would never let the kids fly
I have done thousands of tows and may I ask how many have you done? So please let me be the judge of what I consider safe, so, someday when you get more sailplane experience you will become more cognizant of the safety issues. Your only explanation forgetting a tow was that you did not want to put time on your new engine, so why did you buy a self launch motorglider. I think that the best thing for you to do would be just move on. Please let me know and I will refund you your dues out of my pocket ,
On Sunday, April 23, 2023 at 2:50:09 PM UTC-4, Jason Leonard wrote:to occur. This came as a bit of a surprise to me. I thought my land out tolerance was pretty high. I have had a number of land outs in my first 3 glider seasons (and 100's in my 20+yrs of downwind hang gliding XC) and didn't think it was too big a deal.
On Sunday, April 23, 2023 at 6:34:06 AM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 6:28:48 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 12:15:24 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 11:33:18 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 3:00:56 PM UTC-7, John Johnson wrote:
On Tuesday, April 18, 2023 at 10:11:52 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
What you were suffering from is Retrieve Anxiety. This is where you turn back because you fear the inconvenience of a retrieve...
Yes - I agree.
I initially thought that self-launch capability would be 90+% of the MG benefit but came to realize that I'm now flying XC significantly more relaxed. The whole XC experience is more enjoyable knowing a retrieve hassle is much less likely
learn the hassle factors of owning a complex MG would overcome the advantages and I would be saddled with an expensive glider I didn't enjoy that much. After 7mos, that fear is behind me and I'm truly enjoying this new environment. Maybe that will changeIt's certainly true that a lot of retrieves are much cheaper than buying a MG. But I can afford it and the focus was on flying when a tow wasn't available and increasing my overall soaring enjoyment. The biggest concern for me: I might
unless the latter is qualified to "saving your ass from a tedious retrieve". In a real contest (not OLC!) a motorglider is at a distinct disadvantage, carrying ballast that cannot be dumped.JJThis is the very thing that Old Bob (in his regrettable ignorance) unknowingly complains about. It no doubt adds to OLC scores, or rather, Retrieve Anxiety detracts from OLC scores. It has nothing to do with safety or "saving your ass",
that scenario, go back to the basics of sailplane flight and even you may figure it out. Old Bob, The PuristFitch, are you ok??? Carrying water, is pretty much standard procedure in contest, and you certainly want to spend more time running than you do thermaling. Even a motorglider or sustainer has a cruise advantage over a non ballasted glider in
definitely not. Now we can even that out by requiring that the SG finish the contest with 200 lbs of ballast still aboard, to make it fair, if you'd prefer.Bob, you do realize that a SG has a wider range of wing loading available than a motorglider? Or maybe that is more ignorance showing. In strong conditions, between water and/or engine they are the same, in weak conditions they are most
leaf in the wind compared to with the engine. The issue is the wing loading was SO low that I couldn't get any kind of speed without sinking to 20:1, in a 45:1 glider.Fitch, it's not what you know, it's what you don't know! I'll take that water on any good day, why wouldn't you??? Weight works to your advantage. Old Bob, The Purist"Oh look!!! Another wing loading guru!!!!" That's what you said when I explained my slow cruise speed. Anything faster than 75kts and I was practically diving! So you DO acknowledge what I was perceiving? No engine in the glider and it felt like a
should you need to dump the water, thus leaving you outside of the safe (and legal) aft CG limits. So the pylon motor glider does have a CG advantage that helps offset it's weight by being further aft CG. In the case of the DG500, being a double seater,One thing you didn't note is the CG advantage of an engine. The CG of a glider with an engine as opposed to wing ballast is obvious. Wing ballast can be accounted for using tail ballast, HOWEVER, you cannot add too much tail ballast to the aircraft,
collosal beast, so I'm stuck self launching.Now that the engine is back in: you can REALLY feel the disadvantage. With two pilots and the engine it's even more so. If I had my druthers, though, I'd have that ridiculous Solo engine removed and never put it back in. But OBTB (baby) won't tow my
There is more than one reason that I refused to tow you, it was a safety concern based on prior experiences with towing your Lead Sled. Having 14K volts of electricity staring me in the face is a big concern, your inability to realize a safety concernis another. I set a limit as to the max weight that MY tow plane would tow and that was the all up weight of the JS3's fully loaded with H2O and I even went a bit over that to tow you with your child. If I was your wife I would never let the kids fly
I have done thousands of tows and may I ask how many have you done? So please let me be the judge of what I consider safe, so, someday when you get more sailplane experience you will become more cognizant of the safety issues. Your only explanation forgetting a tow was that you did not want to put time on your new engine, so why did you buy a self launch motorglider. I think that the best thing for you to do would be just move on. Please let me know and I will refund you your dues out of my pocket ,
On Sunday, April 23, 2023 at 5:46:25 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:to occur. This came as a bit of a surprise to me. I thought my land out tolerance was pretty high. I have had a number of land outs in my first 3 glider seasons (and 100's in my 20+yrs of downwind hang gliding XC) and didn't think it was too big a deal.
On Sunday, April 23, 2023 at 2:50:09 PM UTC-4, Jason Leonard wrote:
On Sunday, April 23, 2023 at 6:34:06 AM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 6:28:48 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 12:15:24 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 11:33:18 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 3:00:56 PM UTC-7, John Johnson wrote:
On Tuesday, April 18, 2023 at 10:11:52 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
What you were suffering from is Retrieve Anxiety. This is where you turn back because you fear the inconvenience of a retrieve...
Yes - I agree.
I initially thought that self-launch capability would be 90+% of the MG benefit but came to realize that I'm now flying XC significantly more relaxed. The whole XC experience is more enjoyable knowing a retrieve hassle is much less likely
learn the hassle factors of owning a complex MG would overcome the advantages and I would be saddled with an expensive glider I didn't enjoy that much. After 7mos, that fear is behind me and I'm truly enjoying this new environment. Maybe that will changeIt's certainly true that a lot of retrieves are much cheaper than buying a MG. But I can afford it and the focus was on flying when a tow wasn't available and increasing my overall soaring enjoyment. The biggest concern for me: I might
unless the latter is qualified to "saving your ass from a tedious retrieve". In a real contest (not OLC!) a motorglider is at a distinct disadvantage, carrying ballast that cannot be dumped.JJThis is the very thing that Old Bob (in his regrettable ignorance) unknowingly complains about. It no doubt adds to OLC scores, or rather, Retrieve Anxiety detracts from OLC scores. It has nothing to do with safety or "saving your ass",
that scenario, go back to the basics of sailplane flight and even you may figure it out. Old Bob, The PuristFitch, are you ok??? Carrying water, is pretty much standard procedure in contest, and you certainly want to spend more time running than you do thermaling. Even a motorglider or sustainer has a cruise advantage over a non ballasted glider in
definitely not. Now we can even that out by requiring that the SG finish the contest with 200 lbs of ballast still aboard, to make it fair, if you'd prefer.Bob, you do realize that a SG has a wider range of wing loading available than a motorglider? Or maybe that is more ignorance showing. In strong conditions, between water and/or engine they are the same, in weak conditions they are most
leaf in the wind compared to with the engine. The issue is the wing loading was SO low that I couldn't get any kind of speed without sinking to 20:1, in a 45:1 glider.Fitch, it's not what you know, it's what you don't know! I'll take that water on any good day, why wouldn't you??? Weight works to your advantage. Old Bob, The Purist"Oh look!!! Another wing loading guru!!!!" That's what you said when I explained my slow cruise speed. Anything faster than 75kts and I was practically diving! So you DO acknowledge what I was perceiving? No engine in the glider and it felt like a
should you need to dump the water, thus leaving you outside of the safe (and legal) aft CG limits. So the pylon motor glider does have a CG advantage that helps offset it's weight by being further aft CG. In the case of the DG500, being a double seater,One thing you didn't note is the CG advantage of an engine. The CG of a glider with an engine as opposed to wing ballast is obvious. Wing ballast can be accounted for using tail ballast, HOWEVER, you cannot add too much tail ballast to the aircraft,
my collosal beast, so I'm stuck self launching.Now that the engine is back in: you can REALLY feel the disadvantage. With two pilots and the engine it's even more so. If I had my druthers, though, I'd have that ridiculous Solo engine removed and never put it back in. But OBTB (baby) won't tow
concern is another. I set a limit as to the max weight that MY tow plane would tow and that was the all up weight of the JS3's fully loaded with H2O and I even went a bit over that to tow you with your child. If I was your wife I would never let the kidsThere is more than one reason that I refused to tow you, it was a safety concern based on prior experiences with towing your Lead Sled. Having 14K volts of electricity staring me in the face is a big concern, your inability to realize a safety
for getting a tow was that you did not want to put time on your new engine, so why did you buy a self launch motorglider. I think that the best thing for you to do would be just move on. Please let me know and I will refund you your dues out of my pocketI have done thousands of tows and may I ask how many have you done? So please let me be the judge of what I consider safe, so, someday when you get more sailplane experience you will become more cognizant of the safety issues. Your only explanation
OBTP stands for another thing to me. Hahahaha all I can say is you sure know how to dish the fun out but you certainly don't know how to take it. Old Bob The Moving Goalposts - it's funny that at the end of the runway I'm higher than the Grob, but that's not in 100 OLC logs and "total horse****" right?
Have a good day. I'm not quitting. The club can take my money, and I'll wait you out. When you can cite a safety concern I'll hear it. But literally to this day you've not said an actual concern other than "it's too heavy". I'll give you that. It'sheavy. Anything else? The very first takeoff wasn't pretty for margins. Yes. That I acknowledge. It was the first takeoff. Every subsequent has not been like that since. I was so focused on keeping my eyes on you that YES I didn't see how low we were. I
But I'm unsafe, while you buzz aircraft, pilots and guests of the club taking rides well within 500' while most certainly not landing. Don't ever come to me regarding safety while you perform low passes less than 50' from people on the ground. Youropinion of safety brings nothing to the table. I'll leave the "old days" that you so proudly cite off the internet. 12,000 hours and 30 years of flying say otherwise to your pitiful judgement. Yes, the engine was started before I bought it. Bending
On Sunday, April 23, 2023 at 11:49:51 PM UTC-4, Jason Leonard wrote:likely to occur. This came as a bit of a surprise to me. I thought my land out tolerance was pretty high. I have had a number of land outs in my first 3 glider seasons (and 100's in my 20+yrs of downwind hang gliding XC) and didn't think it was too big a
On Sunday, April 23, 2023 at 5:46:25 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Sunday, April 23, 2023 at 2:50:09 PM UTC-4, Jason Leonard wrote:
On Sunday, April 23, 2023 at 6:34:06 AM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 6:28:48 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 12:15:24 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 11:33:18 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 3:00:56 PM UTC-7, John Johnson wrote:
On Tuesday, April 18, 2023 at 10:11:52 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
What you were suffering from is Retrieve Anxiety. This is where you turn back because you fear the inconvenience of a retrieve...
Yes - I agree.
I initially thought that self-launch capability would be 90+% of the MG benefit but came to realize that I'm now flying XC significantly more relaxed. The whole XC experience is more enjoyable knowing a retrieve hassle is much less
learn the hassle factors of owning a complex MG would overcome the advantages and I would be saddled with an expensive glider I didn't enjoy that much. After 7mos, that fear is behind me and I'm truly enjoying this new environment. Maybe that will changeIt's certainly true that a lot of retrieves are much cheaper than buying a MG. But I can afford it and the focus was on flying when a tow wasn't available and increasing my overall soaring enjoyment. The biggest concern for me: I might
unless the latter is qualified to "saving your ass from a tedious retrieve". In a real contest (not OLC!) a motorglider is at a distinct disadvantage, carrying ballast that cannot be dumped.JJThis is the very thing that Old Bob (in his regrettable ignorance) unknowingly complains about. It no doubt adds to OLC scores, or rather, Retrieve Anxiety detracts from OLC scores. It has nothing to do with safety or "saving your ass",
in that scenario, go back to the basics of sailplane flight and even you may figure it out. Old Bob, The PuristFitch, are you ok??? Carrying water, is pretty much standard procedure in contest, and you certainly want to spend more time running than you do thermaling. Even a motorglider or sustainer has a cruise advantage over a non ballasted glider
definitely not. Now we can even that out by requiring that the SG finish the contest with 200 lbs of ballast still aboard, to make it fair, if you'd prefer.Bob, you do realize that a SG has a wider range of wing loading available than a motorglider? Or maybe that is more ignorance showing. In strong conditions, between water and/or engine they are the same, in weak conditions they are most
a leaf in the wind compared to with the engine. The issue is the wing loading was SO low that I couldn't get any kind of speed without sinking to 20:1, in a 45:1 glider.Fitch, it's not what you know, it's what you don't know! I'll take that water on any good day, why wouldn't you??? Weight works to your advantage. Old Bob, The Purist"Oh look!!! Another wing loading guru!!!!" That's what you said when I explained my slow cruise speed. Anything faster than 75kts and I was practically diving! So you DO acknowledge what I was perceiving? No engine in the glider and it felt like
aircraft, should you need to dump the water, thus leaving you outside of the safe (and legal) aft CG limits. So the pylon motor glider does have a CG advantage that helps offset it's weight by being further aft CG. In the case of the DG500, being aOne thing you didn't note is the CG advantage of an engine. The CG of a glider with an engine as opposed to wing ballast is obvious. Wing ballast can be accounted for using tail ballast, HOWEVER, you cannot add too much tail ballast to the
my collosal beast, so I'm stuck self launching.Now that the engine is back in: you can REALLY feel the disadvantage. With two pilots and the engine it's even more so. If I had my druthers, though, I'd have that ridiculous Solo engine removed and never put it back in. But OBTB (baby) won't tow
concern is another. I set a limit as to the max weight that MY tow plane would tow and that was the all up weight of the JS3's fully loaded with H2O and I even went a bit over that to tow you with your child. If I was your wife I would never let the kidsThere is more than one reason that I refused to tow you, it was a safety concern based on prior experiences with towing your Lead Sled. Having 14K volts of electricity staring me in the face is a big concern, your inability to realize a safety
for getting a tow was that you did not want to put time on your new engine, so why did you buy a self launch motorglider. I think that the best thing for you to do would be just move on. Please let me know and I will refund you your dues out of my pocketI have done thousands of tows and may I ask how many have you done? So please let me be the judge of what I consider safe, so, someday when you get more sailplane experience you will become more cognizant of the safety issues. Your only explanation
that's not in 100 OLC logs and "total horse****" right?OBTP stands for another thing to me. Hahahaha all I can say is you sure know how to dish the fun out but you certainly don't know how to take it. Old Bob The Moving Goalposts - it's funny that at the end of the runway I'm higher than the Grob, but
heavy. Anything else? The very first takeoff wasn't pretty for margins. Yes. That I acknowledge. It was the first takeoff. Every subsequent has not been like that since. I was so focused on keeping my eyes on you that YES I didn't see how low we were. IHave a good day. I'm not quitting. The club can take my money, and I'll wait you out. When you can cite a safety concern I'll hear it. But literally to this day you've not said an actual concern other than "it's too heavy". I'll give you that. It's
opinion of safety brings nothing to the table. I'll leave the "old days" that you so proudly cite off the internet. 12,000 hours and 30 years of flying say otherwise to your pitiful judgement. Yes, the engine was started before I bought it. BendingBut I'm unsafe, while you buzz aircraft, pilots and guests of the club taking rides well within 500' while most certainly not landing. Don't ever come to me regarding safety while you perform low passes less than 50' from people on the ground. Your
Your last takeoff was not much better than your first, keep trying you may get the hang of it. There are only two people that I have ever refused to tow, you being one of them, that should tell you something. Maybe your assessment of towing wouldcertainly have more credibility if you were capable of towing and judge someone like yourself. Old Bob, The Purist
On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 6:47:45 AM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:likely to occur. This came as a bit of a surprise to me. I thought my land out tolerance was pretty high. I have had a number of land outs in my first 3 glider seasons (and 100's in my 20+yrs of downwind hang gliding XC) and didn't think it was too big a
On Sunday, April 23, 2023 at 11:49:51 PM UTC-4, Jason Leonard wrote:
On Sunday, April 23, 2023 at 5:46:25 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Sunday, April 23, 2023 at 2:50:09 PM UTC-4, Jason Leonard wrote:
On Sunday, April 23, 2023 at 6:34:06 AM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 6:28:48 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 12:15:24 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 11:33:18 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 3:00:56 PM UTC-7, John Johnson wrote:
On Tuesday, April 18, 2023 at 10:11:52 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
What you were suffering from is Retrieve Anxiety. This is where you turn back because you fear the inconvenience of a retrieve...
Yes - I agree.
I initially thought that self-launch capability would be 90+% of the MG benefit but came to realize that I'm now flying XC significantly more relaxed. The whole XC experience is more enjoyable knowing a retrieve hassle is much less
might learn the hassle factors of owning a complex MG would overcome the advantages and I would be saddled with an expensive glider I didn't enjoy that much. After 7mos, that fear is behind me and I'm truly enjoying this new environment. Maybe that willIt's certainly true that a lot of retrieves are much cheaper than buying a MG. But I can afford it and the focus was on flying when a tow wasn't available and increasing my overall soaring enjoyment. The biggest concern for me: I
unless the latter is qualified to "saving your ass from a tedious retrieve". In a real contest (not OLC!) a motorglider is at a distinct disadvantage, carrying ballast that cannot be dumped.JJThis is the very thing that Old Bob (in his regrettable ignorance) unknowingly complains about. It no doubt adds to OLC scores, or rather, Retrieve Anxiety detracts from OLC scores. It has nothing to do with safety or "saving your ass",
glider in that scenario, go back to the basics of sailplane flight and even you may figure it out. Old Bob, The PuristFitch, are you ok??? Carrying water, is pretty much standard procedure in contest, and you certainly want to spend more time running than you do thermaling. Even a motorglider or sustainer has a cruise advantage over a non ballasted
definitely not. Now we can even that out by requiring that the SG finish the contest with 200 lbs of ballast still aboard, to make it fair, if you'd prefer.Bob, you do realize that a SG has a wider range of wing loading available than a motorglider? Or maybe that is more ignorance showing. In strong conditions, between water and/or engine they are the same, in weak conditions they are most
like a leaf in the wind compared to with the engine. The issue is the wing loading was SO low that I couldn't get any kind of speed without sinking to 20:1, in a 45:1 glider.Fitch, it's not what you know, it's what you don't know! I'll take that water on any good day, why wouldn't you??? Weight works to your advantage. Old Bob, The Purist"Oh look!!! Another wing loading guru!!!!" That's what you said when I explained my slow cruise speed. Anything faster than 75kts and I was practically diving! So you DO acknowledge what I was perceiving? No engine in the glider and it felt
aircraft, should you need to dump the water, thus leaving you outside of the safe (and legal) aft CG limits. So the pylon motor glider does have a CG advantage that helps offset it's weight by being further aft CG. In the case of the DG500, being aOne thing you didn't note is the CG advantage of an engine. The CG of a glider with an engine as opposed to wing ballast is obvious. Wing ballast can be accounted for using tail ballast, HOWEVER, you cannot add too much tail ballast to the
tow my collosal beast, so I'm stuck self launching.Now that the engine is back in: you can REALLY feel the disadvantage. With two pilots and the engine it's even more so. If I had my druthers, though, I'd have that ridiculous Solo engine removed and never put it back in. But OBTB (baby) won't
concern is another. I set a limit as to the max weight that MY tow plane would tow and that was the all up weight of the JS3's fully loaded with H2O and I even went a bit over that to tow you with your child. If I was your wife I would never let the kidsThere is more than one reason that I refused to tow you, it was a safety concern based on prior experiences with towing your Lead Sled. Having 14K volts of electricity staring me in the face is a big concern, your inability to realize a safety
explanation for getting a tow was that you did not want to put time on your new engine, so why did you buy a self launch motorglider. I think that the best thing for you to do would be just move on. Please let me know and I will refund you your dues outI have done thousands of tows and may I ask how many have you done? So please let me be the judge of what I consider safe, so, someday when you get more sailplane experience you will become more cognizant of the safety issues. Your only
that's not in 100 OLC logs and "total horse****" right?OBTP stands for another thing to me. Hahahaha all I can say is you sure know how to dish the fun out but you certainly don't know how to take it. Old Bob The Moving Goalposts - it's funny that at the end of the runway I'm higher than the Grob, but
heavy. Anything else? The very first takeoff wasn't pretty for margins. Yes. That I acknowledge. It was the first takeoff. Every subsequent has not been like that since. I was so focused on keeping my eyes on you that YES I didn't see how low we were. IHave a good day. I'm not quitting. The club can take my money, and I'll wait you out. When you can cite a safety concern I'll hear it. But literally to this day you've not said an actual concern other than "it's too heavy". I'll give you that. It's
opinion of safety brings nothing to the table. I'll leave the "old days" that you so proudly cite off the internet. 12,000 hours and 30 years of flying say otherwise to your pitiful judgement. Yes, the engine was started before I bought it. BendingBut I'm unsafe, while you buzz aircraft, pilots and guests of the club taking rides well within 500' while most certainly not landing. Don't ever come to me regarding safety while you perform low passes less than 50' from people on the ground. Your
certainly have more credibility if you were capable of towing and judge someone like yourself. Old Bob, The PuristYour last takeoff was not much better than your first, keep trying you may get the hang of it. There are only two people that I have ever refused to tow, you being one of them, that should tell you something. Maybe your assessment of towing would
Well the data doesn't lie, Bob. Why are YOU the only one who has an issue towing me or my glider with the "might" Pawnee? Suddenly it's a 180hp guerilla when I show up lol suddenly when we want to talk takeoff performance: wing loading no longer playsany role in aviation.
On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 8:41:31 AM UTC-4, Jason Leonard wrote:likely to occur. This came as a bit of a surprise to me. I thought my land out tolerance was pretty high. I have had a number of land outs in my first 3 glider seasons (and 100's in my 20+yrs of downwind hang gliding XC) and didn't think it was too big a
On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 6:47:45 AM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Sunday, April 23, 2023 at 11:49:51 PM UTC-4, Jason Leonard wrote:
On Sunday, April 23, 2023 at 5:46:25 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Sunday, April 23, 2023 at 2:50:09 PM UTC-4, Jason Leonard wrote:
On Sunday, April 23, 2023 at 6:34:06 AM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 6:28:48 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 12:15:24 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 11:33:18 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 3:00:56 PM UTC-7, John Johnson wrote:
On Tuesday, April 18, 2023 at 10:11:52 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
What you were suffering from is Retrieve Anxiety. This is where you turn back because you fear the inconvenience of a retrieve...
Yes - I agree.
I initially thought that self-launch capability would be 90+% of the MG benefit but came to realize that I'm now flying XC significantly more relaxed. The whole XC experience is more enjoyable knowing a retrieve hassle is much less
might learn the hassle factors of owning a complex MG would overcome the advantages and I would be saddled with an expensive glider I didn't enjoy that much. After 7mos, that fear is behind me and I'm truly enjoying this new environment. Maybe that willIt's certainly true that a lot of retrieves are much cheaper than buying a MG. But I can afford it and the focus was on flying when a tow wasn't available and increasing my overall soaring enjoyment. The biggest concern for me: I
, unless the latter is qualified to "saving your ass from a tedious retrieve". In a real contest (not OLC!) a motorglider is at a distinct disadvantage, carrying ballast that cannot be dumped.JJThis is the very thing that Old Bob (in his regrettable ignorance) unknowingly complains about. It no doubt adds to OLC scores, or rather, Retrieve Anxiety detracts from OLC scores. It has nothing to do with safety or "saving your ass"
glider in that scenario, go back to the basics of sailplane flight and even you may figure it out. Old Bob, The PuristFitch, are you ok??? Carrying water, is pretty much standard procedure in contest, and you certainly want to spend more time running than you do thermaling. Even a motorglider or sustainer has a cruise advantage over a non ballasted
definitely not. Now we can even that out by requiring that the SG finish the contest with 200 lbs of ballast still aboard, to make it fair, if you'd prefer.Bob, you do realize that a SG has a wider range of wing loading available than a motorglider? Or maybe that is more ignorance showing. In strong conditions, between water and/or engine they are the same, in weak conditions they are most
like a leaf in the wind compared to with the engine. The issue is the wing loading was SO low that I couldn't get any kind of speed without sinking to 20:1, in a 45:1 glider.Fitch, it's not what you know, it's what you don't know! I'll take that water on any good day, why wouldn't you??? Weight works to your advantage. Old Bob, The Purist"Oh look!!! Another wing loading guru!!!!" That's what you said when I explained my slow cruise speed. Anything faster than 75kts and I was practically diving! So you DO acknowledge what I was perceiving? No engine in the glider and it felt
aircraft, should you need to dump the water, thus leaving you outside of the safe (and legal) aft CG limits. So the pylon motor glider does have a CG advantage that helps offset it's weight by being further aft CG. In the case of the DG500, being aOne thing you didn't note is the CG advantage of an engine. The CG of a glider with an engine as opposed to wing ballast is obvious. Wing ballast can be accounted for using tail ballast, HOWEVER, you cannot add too much tail ballast to the
tow my collosal beast, so I'm stuck self launching.Now that the engine is back in: you can REALLY feel the disadvantage. With two pilots and the engine it's even more so. If I had my druthers, though, I'd have that ridiculous Solo engine removed and never put it back in. But OBTB (baby) won't
concern is another. I set a limit as to the max weight that MY tow plane would tow and that was the all up weight of the JS3's fully loaded with H2O and I even went a bit over that to tow you with your child. If I was your wife I would never let the kidsThere is more than one reason that I refused to tow you, it was a safety concern based on prior experiences with towing your Lead Sled. Having 14K volts of electricity staring me in the face is a big concern, your inability to realize a safety
explanation for getting a tow was that you did not want to put time on your new engine, so why did you buy a self launch motorglider. I think that the best thing for you to do would be just move on. Please let me know and I will refund you your dues outI have done thousands of tows and may I ask how many have you done? So please let me be the judge of what I consider safe, so, someday when you get more sailplane experience you will become more cognizant of the safety issues. Your only
but that's not in 100 OLC logs and "total horse****" right?OBTP stands for another thing to me. Hahahaha all I can say is you sure know how to dish the fun out but you certainly don't know how to take it. Old Bob The Moving Goalposts - it's funny that at the end of the runway I'm higher than the Grob,
s heavy. Anything else? The very first takeoff wasn't pretty for margins. Yes. That I acknowledge. It was the first takeoff. Every subsequent has not been like that since. I was so focused on keeping my eyes on you that YES I didn't see how low we were.Have a good day. I'm not quitting. The club can take my money, and I'll wait you out. When you can cite a safety concern I'll hear it. But literally to this day you've not said an actual concern other than "it's too heavy". I'll give you that. It'
Your opinion of safety brings nothing to the table. I'll leave the "old days" that you so proudly cite off the internet. 12,000 hours and 30 years of flying say otherwise to your pitiful judgement. Yes, the engine was started before I bought it. BendingBut I'm unsafe, while you buzz aircraft, pilots and guests of the club taking rides well within 500' while most certainly not landing. Don't ever come to me regarding safety while you perform low passes less than 50' from people on the ground.
certainly have more credibility if you were capable of towing and judge someone like yourself. Old Bob, The PuristYour last takeoff was not much better than your first, keep trying you may get the hang of it. There are only two people that I have ever refused to tow, you being one of them, that should tell you something. Maybe your assessment of towing would
plays any role in aviation.Well the data doesn't lie, Bob. Why are YOU the only one who has an issue towing me or my glider with the "might" Pawnee? Suddenly it's a 180hp guerilla when I show up lol suddenly when we want to talk takeoff performance: wing loading no longer
I do not own the tow plane anymore, our club owns the towplane, maybe you should ask the club for a tow. Why would you even want a tow if you are a self launch. Your explanation to me was that you just did not want to put time on your engine, then whydid you buy a motorglider? You seem to pull out the motor on most occasions to get you back home, why not just take off with your own power as the POS was designed to do? It's Gorilla, not guerilla as you made reference to. Maybe if you had more
On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 8:43:08 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:less likely to occur. This came as a bit of a surprise to me. I thought my land out tolerance was pretty high. I have had a number of land outs in my first 3 glider seasons (and 100's in my 20+yrs of downwind hang gliding XC) and didn't think it was too
On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 8:41:31 AM UTC-4, Jason Leonard wrote:
On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 6:47:45 AM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Sunday, April 23, 2023 at 11:49:51 PM UTC-4, Jason Leonard wrote:
On Sunday, April 23, 2023 at 5:46:25 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Sunday, April 23, 2023 at 2:50:09 PM UTC-4, Jason Leonard wrote:
On Sunday, April 23, 2023 at 6:34:06 AM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 6:28:48 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 12:15:24 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 11:33:18 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 3:00:56 PM UTC-7, John Johnson wrote:
On Tuesday, April 18, 2023 at 10:11:52 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
What you were suffering from is Retrieve Anxiety. This is where you turn back because you fear the inconvenience of a retrieve...
Yes - I agree.
I initially thought that self-launch capability would be 90+% of the MG benefit but came to realize that I'm now flying XC significantly more relaxed. The whole XC experience is more enjoyable knowing a retrieve hassle is much
might learn the hassle factors of owning a complex MG would overcome the advantages and I would be saddled with an expensive glider I didn't enjoy that much. After 7mos, that fear is behind me and I'm truly enjoying this new environment. Maybe that willIt's certainly true that a lot of retrieves are much cheaper than buying a MG. But I can afford it and the focus was on flying when a tow wasn't available and increasing my overall soaring enjoyment. The biggest concern for me: I
ass", unless the latter is qualified to "saving your ass from a tedious retrieve". In a real contest (not OLC!) a motorglider is at a distinct disadvantage, carrying ballast that cannot be dumped.JJThis is the very thing that Old Bob (in his regrettable ignorance) unknowingly complains about. It no doubt adds to OLC scores, or rather, Retrieve Anxiety detracts from OLC scores. It has nothing to do with safety or "saving your
glider in that scenario, go back to the basics of sailplane flight and even you may figure it out. Old Bob, The PuristFitch, are you ok??? Carrying water, is pretty much standard procedure in contest, and you certainly want to spend more time running than you do thermaling. Even a motorglider or sustainer has a cruise advantage over a non ballasted
definitely not. Now we can even that out by requiring that the SG finish the contest with 200 lbs of ballast still aboard, to make it fair, if you'd prefer.Bob, you do realize that a SG has a wider range of wing loading available than a motorglider? Or maybe that is more ignorance showing. In strong conditions, between water and/or engine they are the same, in weak conditions they are most
like a leaf in the wind compared to with the engine. The issue is the wing loading was SO low that I couldn't get any kind of speed without sinking to 20:1, in a 45:1 glider.Fitch, it's not what you know, it's what you don't know! I'll take that water on any good day, why wouldn't you??? Weight works to your advantage. Old Bob, The Purist"Oh look!!! Another wing loading guru!!!!" That's what you said when I explained my slow cruise speed. Anything faster than 75kts and I was practically diving! So you DO acknowledge what I was perceiving? No engine in the glider and it felt
aircraft, should you need to dump the water, thus leaving you outside of the safe (and legal) aft CG limits. So the pylon motor glider does have a CG advantage that helps offset it's weight by being further aft CG. In the case of the DG500, being aOne thing you didn't note is the CG advantage of an engine. The CG of a glider with an engine as opposed to wing ballast is obvious. Wing ballast can be accounted for using tail ballast, HOWEVER, you cannot add too much tail ballast to the
t tow my collosal beast, so I'm stuck self launching.Now that the engine is back in: you can REALLY feel the disadvantage. With two pilots and the engine it's even more so. If I had my druthers, though, I'd have that ridiculous Solo engine removed and never put it back in. But OBTB (baby) won'
safety concern is another. I set a limit as to the max weight that MY tow plane would tow and that was the all up weight of the JS3's fully loaded with H2O and I even went a bit over that to tow you with your child. If I was your wife I would never letThere is more than one reason that I refused to tow you, it was a safety concern based on prior experiences with towing your Lead Sled. Having 14K volts of electricity staring me in the face is a big concern, your inability to realize a
explanation for getting a tow was that you did not want to put time on your new engine, so why did you buy a self launch motorglider. I think that the best thing for you to do would be just move on. Please let me know and I will refund you your dues outI have done thousands of tows and may I ask how many have you done? So please let me be the judge of what I consider safe, so, someday when you get more sailplane experience you will become more cognizant of the safety issues. Your only
but that's not in 100 OLC logs and "total horse****" right?OBTP stands for another thing to me. Hahahaha all I can say is you sure know how to dish the fun out but you certainly don't know how to take it. Old Bob The Moving Goalposts - it's funny that at the end of the runway I'm higher than the Grob,
It's heavy. Anything else? The very first takeoff wasn't pretty for margins. Yes. That I acknowledge. It was the first takeoff. Every subsequent has not been like that since. I was so focused on keeping my eyes on you that YES I didn't see how low weHave a good day. I'm not quitting. The club can take my money, and I'll wait you out. When you can cite a safety concern I'll hear it. But literally to this day you've not said an actual concern other than "it's too heavy". I'll give you that.
Your opinion of safety brings nothing to the table. I'll leave the "old days" that you so proudly cite off the internet. 12,000 hours and 30 years of flying say otherwise to your pitiful judgement. Yes, the engine was started before I bought it. BendingBut I'm unsafe, while you buzz aircraft, pilots and guests of the club taking rides well within 500' while most certainly not landing. Don't ever come to me regarding safety while you perform low passes less than 50' from people on the ground.
certainly have more credibility if you were capable of towing and judge someone like yourself. Old Bob, The PuristYour last takeoff was not much better than your first, keep trying you may get the hang of it. There are only two people that I have ever refused to tow, you being one of them, that should tell you something. Maybe your assessment of towing would
plays any role in aviation.Well the data doesn't lie, Bob. Why are YOU the only one who has an issue towing me or my glider with the "might" Pawnee? Suddenly it's a 180hp guerilla when I show up lol suddenly when we want to talk takeoff performance: wing loading no longer
why did you buy a motorglider? You seem to pull out the motor on most occasions to get you back home, why not just take off with your own power as the POS was designed to do? It's Gorilla, not guerilla as you made reference to. Maybe if you had moreI do not own the tow plane anymore, our club owns the towplane, maybe you should ask the club for a tow. Why would you even want a tow if you are a self launch. Your explanation to me was that you just did not want to put time on your engine, then
Ah! There we go. Bob, I wasn't trying to publicly pressure you into towing me. I also wasn't and am not asking you for a tow. I'm actually not interested in you towing me and especially my children. Notice the last tow: the tow pilot said there wasabsolutely nothing abnormal. He said he'd tow me again - I informed him of your choice words with me, and that he could suffer the same treatment. I strongly urged him not to cross you by offering to tow me again. His words? "A Super Cub could've done
Maybe for the 104th glider flight I'll do the diamond goal again doing your "holy grail" around the lake again. That was frankly an easy trip. Why do you make it to be such a big deal? It was fun.The second was on the 2901 triangle - and I couldn't relieve myself so I held over an airport until I could go. I came up 30km short, and successfully threaded the needle. Wow so amazing (insert sarcasm). One more thermal and the day was done. So yeah,
Oh, I've only motored out of a landout three times. One on a day when you couldn't have flown in a pure sailplane - because no one was there even if I could've gotten a tow. 20kts and you guys pack up and leave. I had a nice flight after that first leg.
So technically I've only used the engine to "motor home" once.as a soaring pilot. I enjoyed the chats. The moment I arrived with my glider you began down this road that we are on.
Bob, I'm not here to fight. I don't know what it is with you and me and where we got our hairs crossed, but I sure wish you'd bury the hatchet. I don't frankly care what you think of me anymore. And that's been pretty freeing. I used to look up to you
That bottle of rum was a peace offering with no strings attached. I'll do it again. I expect zero in return. Just stop it with the "All My Children" converted to "All My Pilots" and "As the Propeller Turns" - it's nauseating. I'd rather have a beerwith you than get yelled at over nothing.
YOU are why I bought a motorglider. YOU have run off a lot of people and brag about it. YOU are an example of why this sport is not doing well. Have fun, make fun of my glider. I don't care man. Just bury the hatchet and drop it. I just don't care -really. I'm only here to fire you up lol I won't stay long.
The Solo got me as far as I wanted to go. Then it broke again. I'm not looking to save the hours. I'm trying to reduce the maintenance. I'm surprised it lasted that long before having another issue. You don't see how often I'm out there working on thatthing. You have literally no idea. Ask Victor how often I am the one to close the big hangar up. Then, I'm usually there until 1-3am working on it by myself. All within the confines of the FARs I might add.
Gorilla, Guerilla, whatever. Don't act like I didn't ever offer to help. That was me that helped you with the strut. I didn't expect anything in return - nor did I think anything of it. You've called me to help out 1x time to sign off a guy who hasbillions of hours in sailplanes, but won't "say" they read the manual. You didn't get that? I was trying to tell you to tell him to SAY he read it. Get it? Man. And you were so angry with me after that lol I can't win with you. I'd have happily signed
You *never* said I couldn't be towed or that it wasn't allowed. So when I rejoined the club - I asked for a tow from another tow pilot and he gleefully said absolutely. It wasn't an issue, and my son, who's still scarred from the engine failure, washappy to get an aerotow. We were off in 200' and at 300' at the end of the runway. What's unsafe? Me? How so? Give me an actual data point or action that was unsafe. Just yelling that it's heavy doesn't mean much to me because I've never towed. Help me
Again I haven't asked you to tow me since December when you suggested I self launch from now on. But you never said I couldn't be towed. To be clear - I appreciate it if you'd never speak to me like you did in March again. I don't want your money. Oryour tow.
Also, I'll let anyone but you be the judge of my safety. I've been to many glider clubs across the country now, and not a one had anything bad to say.... Weird. Every time I ask them to debrief how I can be better, same as I did when you towed me.Instead of yelling at me and zero instruction on what I did wrong (or that my glider is heavy), they told me I did a great job. Really weird. I don't mind your other thread... Maybe I'll jump in later. I hope you have a great day Bob.
On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 1:15:34 AM UTC-4, Jason Leonard wrote:less likely to occur. This came as a bit of a surprise to me. I thought my land out tolerance was pretty high. I have had a number of land outs in my first 3 glider seasons (and 100's in my 20+yrs of downwind hang gliding XC) and didn't think it was too
On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 8:43:08 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 8:41:31 AM UTC-4, Jason Leonard wrote:
On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 6:47:45 AM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Sunday, April 23, 2023 at 11:49:51 PM UTC-4, Jason Leonard wrote:
On Sunday, April 23, 2023 at 5:46:25 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Sunday, April 23, 2023 at 2:50:09 PM UTC-4, Jason Leonard wrote:
On Sunday, April 23, 2023 at 6:34:06 AM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 6:28:48 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 12:15:24 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 11:33:18 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 3:00:56 PM UTC-7, John Johnson wrote:
On Tuesday, April 18, 2023 at 10:11:52 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
What you were suffering from is Retrieve Anxiety. This is where you turn back because you fear the inconvenience of a retrieve...
Yes - I agree.
I initially thought that self-launch capability would be 90+% of the MG benefit but came to realize that I'm now flying XC significantly more relaxed. The whole XC experience is more enjoyable knowing a retrieve hassle is much
I might learn the hassle factors of owning a complex MG would overcome the advantages and I would be saddled with an expensive glider I didn't enjoy that much. After 7mos, that fear is behind me and I'm truly enjoying this new environment. Maybe thatIt's certainly true that a lot of retrieves are much cheaper than buying a MG. But I can afford it and the focus was on flying when a tow wasn't available and increasing my overall soaring enjoyment. The biggest concern for me:
ass", unless the latter is qualified to "saving your ass from a tedious retrieve". In a real contest (not OLC!) a motorglider is at a distinct disadvantage, carrying ballast that cannot be dumped.JJThis is the very thing that Old Bob (in his regrettable ignorance) unknowingly complains about. It no doubt adds to OLC scores, or rather, Retrieve Anxiety detracts from OLC scores. It has nothing to do with safety or "saving your
glider in that scenario, go back to the basics of sailplane flight and even you may figure it out. Old Bob, The PuristFitch, are you ok??? Carrying water, is pretty much standard procedure in contest, and you certainly want to spend more time running than you do thermaling. Even a motorglider or sustainer has a cruise advantage over a non ballasted
most definitely not. Now we can even that out by requiring that the SG finish the contest with 200 lbs of ballast still aboard, to make it fair, if you'd prefer.Bob, you do realize that a SG has a wider range of wing loading available than a motorglider? Or maybe that is more ignorance showing. In strong conditions, between water and/or engine they are the same, in weak conditions they are
felt like a leaf in the wind compared to with the engine. The issue is the wing loading was SO low that I couldn't get any kind of speed without sinking to 20:1, in a 45:1 glider.Fitch, it's not what you know, it's what you don't know! I'll take that water on any good day, why wouldn't you??? Weight works to your advantage. Old Bob, The Purist"Oh look!!! Another wing loading guru!!!!" That's what you said when I explained my slow cruise speed. Anything faster than 75kts and I was practically diving! So you DO acknowledge what I was perceiving? No engine in the glider and it
the aircraft, should you need to dump the water, thus leaving you outside of the safe (and legal) aft CG limits. So the pylon motor glider does have a CG advantage that helps offset it's weight by being further aft CG. In the case of the DG500, being aOne thing you didn't note is the CG advantage of an engine. The CG of a glider with an engine as opposed to wing ballast is obvious. Wing ballast can be accounted for using tail ballast, HOWEVER, you cannot add too much tail ballast to
won't tow my collosal beast, so I'm stuck self launching.Now that the engine is back in: you can REALLY feel the disadvantage. With two pilots and the engine it's even more so. If I had my druthers, though, I'd have that ridiculous Solo engine removed and never put it back in. But OBTB (baby)
safety concern is another. I set a limit as to the max weight that MY tow plane would tow and that was the all up weight of the JS3's fully loaded with H2O and I even went a bit over that to tow you with your child. If I was your wife I would never letThere is more than one reason that I refused to tow you, it was a safety concern based on prior experiences with towing your Lead Sled. Having 14K volts of electricity staring me in the face is a big concern, your inability to realize a
explanation for getting a tow was that you did not want to put time on your new engine, so why did you buy a self launch motorglider. I think that the best thing for you to do would be just move on. Please let me know and I will refund you your dues outI have done thousands of tows and may I ask how many have you done? So please let me be the judge of what I consider safe, so, someday when you get more sailplane experience you will become more cognizant of the safety issues. Your only
but that's not in 100 OLC logs and "total horse****" right?OBTP stands for another thing to me. Hahahaha all I can say is you sure know how to dish the fun out but you certainly don't know how to take it. Old Bob The Moving Goalposts - it's funny that at the end of the runway I'm higher than the Grob,
It's heavy. Anything else? The very first takeoff wasn't pretty for margins. Yes. That I acknowledge. It was the first takeoff. Every subsequent has not been like that since. I was so focused on keeping my eyes on you that YES I didn't see how low weHave a good day. I'm not quitting. The club can take my money, and I'll wait you out. When you can cite a safety concern I'll hear it. But literally to this day you've not said an actual concern other than "it's too heavy". I'll give you that.
Your opinion of safety brings nothing to the table. I'll leave the "old days" that you so proudly cite off the internet. 12,000 hours and 30 years of flying say otherwise to your pitiful judgement. Yes, the engine was started before I bought it. BendingBut I'm unsafe, while you buzz aircraft, pilots and guests of the club taking rides well within 500' while most certainly not landing. Don't ever come to me regarding safety while you perform low passes less than 50' from people on the ground.
would certainly have more credibility if you were capable of towing and judge someone like yourself. Old Bob, The PuristYour last takeoff was not much better than your first, keep trying you may get the hang of it. There are only two people that I have ever refused to tow, you being one of them, that should tell you something. Maybe your assessment of towing
plays any role in aviation.Well the data doesn't lie, Bob. Why are YOU the only one who has an issue towing me or my glider with the "might" Pawnee? Suddenly it's a 180hp guerilla when I show up lol suddenly when we want to talk takeoff performance: wing loading no longer
why did you buy a motorglider? You seem to pull out the motor on most occasions to get you back home, why not just take off with your own power as the POS was designed to do? It's Gorilla, not guerilla as you made reference to. Maybe if you had moreI do not own the tow plane anymore, our club owns the towplane, maybe you should ask the club for a tow. Why would you even want a tow if you are a self launch. Your explanation to me was that you just did not want to put time on your engine, then
absolutely nothing abnormal. He said he'd tow me again - I informed him of your choice words with me, and that he could suffer the same treatment. I strongly urged him not to cross you by offering to tow me again. His words? "A Super Cub could've doneAh! There we go. Bob, I wasn't trying to publicly pressure you into towing me. I also wasn't and am not asking you for a tow. I'm actually not interested in you towing me and especially my children. Notice the last tow: the tow pilot said there was
leg. The second was on the 2901 triangle - and I couldn't relieve myself so I held over an airport until I could go. I came up 30km short, and successfully threaded the needle. Wow so amazing (insert sarcasm). One more thermal and the day was done. SoMaybe for the 104th glider flight I'll do the diamond goal again doing your "holy grail" around the lake again. That was frankly an easy trip. Why do you make it to be such a big deal? It was fun.
Oh, I've only motored out of a landout three times. One on a day when you couldn't have flown in a pure sailplane - because no one was there even if I could've gotten a tow. 20kts and you guys pack up and leave. I had a nice flight after that first
you as a soaring pilot. I enjoyed the chats. The moment I arrived with my glider you began down this road that we are on.So technically I've only used the engine to "motor home" once.
Bob, I'm not here to fight. I don't know what it is with you and me and where we got our hairs crossed, but I sure wish you'd bury the hatchet. I don't frankly care what you think of me anymore. And that's been pretty freeing. I used to look up to
with you than get yelled at over nothing.That bottle of rum was a peace offering with no strings attached. I'll do it again. I expect zero in return. Just stop it with the "All My Children" converted to "All My Pilots" and "As the Propeller Turns" - it's nauseating. I'd rather have a beer
really. I'm only here to fire you up lol I won't stay long.YOU are why I bought a motorglider. YOU have run off a lot of people and brag about it. YOU are an example of why this sport is not doing well. Have fun, make fun of my glider. I don't care man. Just bury the hatchet and drop it. I just don't care -
that thing. You have literally no idea. Ask Victor how often I am the one to close the big hangar up. Then, I'm usually there until 1-3am working on it by myself. All within the confines of the FARs I might add.The Solo got me as far as I wanted to go. Then it broke again. I'm not looking to save the hours. I'm trying to reduce the maintenance. I'm surprised it lasted that long before having another issue. You don't see how often I'm out there working on
billions of hours in sailplanes, but won't "say" they read the manual. You didn't get that? I was trying to tell you to tell him to SAY he read it. Get it? Man. And you were so angry with me after that lol I can't win with you. I'd have happily signedGorilla, Guerilla, whatever. Don't act like I didn't ever offer to help. That was me that helped you with the strut. I didn't expect anything in return - nor did I think anything of it. You've called me to help out 1x time to sign off a guy who has
happy to get an aerotow. We were off in 200' and at 300' at the end of the runway. What's unsafe? Me? How so? Give me an actual data point or action that was unsafe. Just yelling that it's heavy doesn't mean much to me because I've never towed. Help meYou *never* said I couldn't be towed or that it wasn't allowed. So when I rejoined the club - I asked for a tow from another tow pilot and he gleefully said absolutely. It wasn't an issue, and my son, who's still scarred from the engine failure, was
your tow.Again I haven't asked you to tow me since December when you suggested I self launch from now on. But you never said I couldn't be towed. To be clear - I appreciate it if you'd never speak to me like you did in March again. I don't want your money. Or
Instead of yelling at me and zero instruction on what I did wrong (or that my glider is heavy), they told me I did a great job. Really weird. I don't mind your other thread... Maybe I'll jump in later. I hope you have a great day Bob.Also, I'll let anyone but you be the judge of my safety. I've been to many glider clubs across the country now, and not a one had anything bad to say.... Weird. Every time I ask them to debrief how I can be better, same as I did when you towed me.
Hey Slapdick, which is your nickname around the club, you should have been some type of fictional writer. Looking at situations through rose colored glasses creates false impressions, you seem to have a answer for everything. Just to let you know,there would never even be a glider operation at X52 if it weren't for me, I started the club, funded the club, bought three Pawnee's for the club, bought sailplanes for rebuilding, worked out a LOA for increased safety within Class D with the FAA, and
Now about running people off, the club should have never let you return after you requested your money back, which the club refunded. Old Bob, The Purist
On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 6:57:08 AM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:less likely to occur. This came as a bit of a surprise to me. I thought my land out tolerance was pretty high. I have had a number of land outs in my first 3 glider seasons (and 100's in my 20+yrs of downwind hang gliding XC) and didn't think it was too
On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 1:15:34 AM UTC-4, Jason Leonard wrote:
On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 8:43:08 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 8:41:31 AM UTC-4, Jason Leonard wrote:
On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 6:47:45 AM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Sunday, April 23, 2023 at 11:49:51 PM UTC-4, Jason Leonard wrote:
On Sunday, April 23, 2023 at 5:46:25 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Sunday, April 23, 2023 at 2:50:09 PM UTC-4, Jason Leonard wrote:
On Sunday, April 23, 2023 at 6:34:06 AM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 6:28:48 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 12:15:24 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 11:33:18 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 3:00:56 PM UTC-7, John Johnson wrote:
On Tuesday, April 18, 2023 at 10:11:52 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
What you were suffering from is Retrieve Anxiety. This is where you turn back because you fear the inconvenience of a retrieve...
Yes - I agree.
I initially thought that self-launch capability would be 90+% of the MG benefit but came to realize that I'm now flying XC significantly more relaxed. The whole XC experience is more enjoyable knowing a retrieve hassle is much
I might learn the hassle factors of owning a complex MG would overcome the advantages and I would be saddled with an expensive glider I didn't enjoy that much. After 7mos, that fear is behind me and I'm truly enjoying this new environment. Maybe thatIt's certainly true that a lot of retrieves are much cheaper than buying a MG. But I can afford it and the focus was on flying when a tow wasn't available and increasing my overall soaring enjoyment. The biggest concern for me:
your ass", unless the latter is qualified to "saving your ass from a tedious retrieve". In a real contest (not OLC!) a motorglider is at a distinct disadvantage, carrying ballast that cannot be dumped.JJThis is the very thing that Old Bob (in his regrettable ignorance) unknowingly complains about. It no doubt adds to OLC scores, or rather, Retrieve Anxiety detracts from OLC scores. It has nothing to do with safety or "saving
ballasted glider in that scenario, go back to the basics of sailplane flight and even you may figure it out. Old Bob, The PuristFitch, are you ok??? Carrying water, is pretty much standard procedure in contest, and you certainly want to spend more time running than you do thermaling. Even a motorglider or sustainer has a cruise advantage over a non
most definitely not. Now we can even that out by requiring that the SG finish the contest with 200 lbs of ballast still aboard, to make it fair, if you'd prefer.Bob, you do realize that a SG has a wider range of wing loading available than a motorglider? Or maybe that is more ignorance showing. In strong conditions, between water and/or engine they are the same, in weak conditions they are
felt like a leaf in the wind compared to with the engine. The issue is the wing loading was SO low that I couldn't get any kind of speed without sinking to 20:1, in a 45:1 glider.Fitch, it's not what you know, it's what you don't know! I'll take that water on any good day, why wouldn't you??? Weight works to your advantage. Old Bob, The Purist"Oh look!!! Another wing loading guru!!!!" That's what you said when I explained my slow cruise speed. Anything faster than 75kts and I was practically diving! So you DO acknowledge what I was perceiving? No engine in the glider and it
the aircraft, should you need to dump the water, thus leaving you outside of the safe (and legal) aft CG limits. So the pylon motor glider does have a CG advantage that helps offset it's weight by being further aft CG. In the case of the DG500, being aOne thing you didn't note is the CG advantage of an engine. The CG of a glider with an engine as opposed to wing ballast is obvious. Wing ballast can be accounted for using tail ballast, HOWEVER, you cannot add too much tail ballast to
won't tow my collosal beast, so I'm stuck self launching.Now that the engine is back in: you can REALLY feel the disadvantage. With two pilots and the engine it's even more so. If I had my druthers, though, I'd have that ridiculous Solo engine removed and never put it back in. But OBTB (baby)
safety concern is another. I set a limit as to the max weight that MY tow plane would tow and that was the all up weight of the JS3's fully loaded with H2O and I even went a bit over that to tow you with your child. If I was your wife I would never letThere is more than one reason that I refused to tow you, it was a safety concern based on prior experiences with towing your Lead Sled. Having 14K volts of electricity staring me in the face is a big concern, your inability to realize a
explanation for getting a tow was that you did not want to put time on your new engine, so why did you buy a self launch motorglider. I think that the best thing for you to do would be just move on. Please let me know and I will refund you your dues outI have done thousands of tows and may I ask how many have you done? So please let me be the judge of what I consider safe, so, someday when you get more sailplane experience you will become more cognizant of the safety issues. Your only
Grob, but that's not in 100 OLC logs and "total horse****" right?OBTP stands for another thing to me. Hahahaha all I can say is you sure know how to dish the fun out but you certainly don't know how to take it. Old Bob The Moving Goalposts - it's funny that at the end of the runway I'm higher than the
that. It's heavy. Anything else? The very first takeoff wasn't pretty for margins. Yes. That I acknowledge. It was the first takeoff. Every subsequent has not been like that since. I was so focused on keeping my eyes on you that YES I didn't see how lowHave a good day. I'm not quitting. The club can take my money, and I'll wait you out. When you can cite a safety concern I'll hear it. But literally to this day you've not said an actual concern other than "it's too heavy". I'll give you
ground. Your opinion of safety brings nothing to the table. I'll leave the "old days" that you so proudly cite off the internet. 12,000 hours and 30 years of flying say otherwise to your pitiful judgement. Yes, the engine was started before I bought it.But I'm unsafe, while you buzz aircraft, pilots and guests of the club taking rides well within 500' while most certainly not landing. Don't ever come to me regarding safety while you perform low passes less than 50' from people on the
would certainly have more credibility if you were capable of towing and judge someone like yourself. Old Bob, The PuristYour last takeoff was not much better than your first, keep trying you may get the hang of it. There are only two people that I have ever refused to tow, you being one of them, that should tell you something. Maybe your assessment of towing
longer plays any role in aviation.Well the data doesn't lie, Bob. Why are YOU the only one who has an issue towing me or my glider with the "might" Pawnee? Suddenly it's a 180hp guerilla when I show up lol suddenly when we want to talk takeoff performance: wing loading no
then why did you buy a motorglider? You seem to pull out the motor on most occasions to get you back home, why not just take off with your own power as the POS was designed to do? It's Gorilla, not guerilla as you made reference to. Maybe if you had moreI do not own the tow plane anymore, our club owns the towplane, maybe you should ask the club for a tow. Why would you even want a tow if you are a self launch. Your explanation to me was that you just did not want to put time on your engine,
absolutely nothing abnormal. He said he'd tow me again - I informed him of your choice words with me, and that he could suffer the same treatment. I strongly urged him not to cross you by offering to tow me again. His words? "A Super Cub could've doneAh! There we go. Bob, I wasn't trying to publicly pressure you into towing me. I also wasn't and am not asking you for a tow. I'm actually not interested in you towing me and especially my children. Notice the last tow: the tow pilot said there was
leg. The second was on the 2901 triangle - and I couldn't relieve myself so I held over an airport until I could go. I came up 30km short, and successfully threaded the needle. Wow so amazing (insert sarcasm). One more thermal and the day was done. SoMaybe for the 104th glider flight I'll do the diamond goal again doing your "holy grail" around the lake again. That was frankly an easy trip. Why do you make it to be such a big deal? It was fun.
Oh, I've only motored out of a landout three times. One on a day when you couldn't have flown in a pure sailplane - because no one was there even if I could've gotten a tow. 20kts and you guys pack up and leave. I had a nice flight after that first
you as a soaring pilot. I enjoyed the chats. The moment I arrived with my glider you began down this road that we are on.So technically I've only used the engine to "motor home" once.
Bob, I'm not here to fight. I don't know what it is with you and me and where we got our hairs crossed, but I sure wish you'd bury the hatchet. I don't frankly care what you think of me anymore. And that's been pretty freeing. I used to look up to
with you than get yelled at over nothing.That bottle of rum was a peace offering with no strings attached. I'll do it again. I expect zero in return. Just stop it with the "All My Children" converted to "All My Pilots" and "As the Propeller Turns" - it's nauseating. I'd rather have a beer
really. I'm only here to fire you up lol I won't stay long.YOU are why I bought a motorglider. YOU have run off a lot of people and brag about it. YOU are an example of why this sport is not doing well. Have fun, make fun of my glider. I don't care man. Just bury the hatchet and drop it. I just don't care -
that thing. You have literally no idea. Ask Victor how often I am the one to close the big hangar up. Then, I'm usually there until 1-3am working on it by myself. All within the confines of the FARs I might add.The Solo got me as far as I wanted to go. Then it broke again. I'm not looking to save the hours. I'm trying to reduce the maintenance. I'm surprised it lasted that long before having another issue. You don't see how often I'm out there working on
billions of hours in sailplanes, but won't "say" they read the manual. You didn't get that? I was trying to tell you to tell him to SAY he read it. Get it? Man. And you were so angry with me after that lol I can't win with you. I'd have happily signedGorilla, Guerilla, whatever. Don't act like I didn't ever offer to help. That was me that helped you with the strut. I didn't expect anything in return - nor did I think anything of it. You've called me to help out 1x time to sign off a guy who has
was happy to get an aerotow. We were off in 200' and at 300' at the end of the runway. What's unsafe? Me? How so? Give me an actual data point or action that was unsafe. Just yelling that it's heavy doesn't mean much to me because I've never towed. HelpYou *never* said I couldn't be towed or that it wasn't allowed. So when I rejoined the club - I asked for a tow from another tow pilot and he gleefully said absolutely. It wasn't an issue, and my son, who's still scarred from the engine failure,
Or your tow.Again I haven't asked you to tow me since December when you suggested I self launch from now on. But you never said I couldn't be towed. To be clear - I appreciate it if you'd never speak to me like you did in March again. I don't want your money.
Instead of yelling at me and zero instruction on what I did wrong (or that my glider is heavy), they told me I did a great job. Really weird. I don't mind your other thread... Maybe I'll jump in later. I hope you have a great day Bob.Also, I'll let anyone but you be the judge of my safety. I've been to many glider clubs across the country now, and not a one had anything bad to say.... Weird. Every time I ask them to debrief how I can be better, same as I did when you towed me.
there would never even be a glider operation at X52 if it weren't for me, I started the club, funded the club, bought three Pawnee's for the club, bought sailplanes for rebuilding, worked out a LOA for increased safety within Class D with the FAA, andHey Slapdick, which is your nickname around the club, you should have been some type of fictional writer. Looking at situations through rose colored glasses creates false impressions, you seem to have a answer for everything. Just to let you know,
ADS-B had nothing to do with you violating our handshake agreement with the FAA! OBTPNow about running people off, the club should have never let you return after you requested your money back, which the club refunded. Old Bob, The PuristYou said "you have ADS-B" I took it for what you said, that it didn't matter.
Bob - we are all supremely grateful for what you've done.
I have an answer because I speak nothing but the truth. Not altered reality. Again, I hope you have a great day and get to go soaring soon.
On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 6:34:56 PM UTC-4, Jason Leonard wrote:much less likely to occur. This came as a bit of a surprise to me. I thought my land out tolerance was pretty high. I have had a number of land outs in my first 3 glider seasons (and 100's in my 20+yrs of downwind hang gliding XC) and didn't think it was
On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 6:57:08 AM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 1:15:34 AM UTC-4, Jason Leonard wrote:
On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 8:43:08 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 8:41:31 AM UTC-4, Jason Leonard wrote:
On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 6:47:45 AM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Sunday, April 23, 2023 at 11:49:51 PM UTC-4, Jason Leonard wrote:
On Sunday, April 23, 2023 at 5:46:25 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Sunday, April 23, 2023 at 2:50:09 PM UTC-4, Jason Leonard wrote:
On Sunday, April 23, 2023 at 6:34:06 AM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 6:28:48 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 12:15:24 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 11:33:18 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 3:00:56 PM UTC-7, John Johnson wrote:
On Tuesday, April 18, 2023 at 10:11:52 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
What you were suffering from is Retrieve Anxiety. This is where you turn back because you fear the inconvenience of a retrieve...
Yes - I agree.
I initially thought that self-launch capability would be 90+% of the MG benefit but came to realize that I'm now flying XC significantly more relaxed. The whole XC experience is more enjoyable knowing a retrieve hassle is
me: I might learn the hassle factors of owning a complex MG would overcome the advantages and I would be saddled with an expensive glider I didn't enjoy that much. After 7mos, that fear is behind me and I'm truly enjoying this new environment. Maybe thatIt's certainly true that a lot of retrieves are much cheaper than buying a MG. But I can afford it and the focus was on flying when a tow wasn't available and increasing my overall soaring enjoyment. The biggest concern for
your ass", unless the latter is qualified to "saving your ass from a tedious retrieve". In a real contest (not OLC!) a motorglider is at a distinct disadvantage, carrying ballast that cannot be dumped.JJThis is the very thing that Old Bob (in his regrettable ignorance) unknowingly complains about. It no doubt adds to OLC scores, or rather, Retrieve Anxiety detracts from OLC scores. It has nothing to do with safety or "saving
ballasted glider in that scenario, go back to the basics of sailplane flight and even you may figure it out. Old Bob, The PuristFitch, are you ok??? Carrying water, is pretty much standard procedure in contest, and you certainly want to spend more time running than you do thermaling. Even a motorglider or sustainer has a cruise advantage over a non
are most definitely not. Now we can even that out by requiring that the SG finish the contest with 200 lbs of ballast still aboard, to make it fair, if you'd prefer.Bob, you do realize that a SG has a wider range of wing loading available than a motorglider? Or maybe that is more ignorance showing. In strong conditions, between water and/or engine they are the same, in weak conditions they
it felt like a leaf in the wind compared to with the engine. The issue is the wing loading was SO low that I couldn't get any kind of speed without sinking to 20:1, in a 45:1 glider.Fitch, it's not what you know, it's what you don't know! I'll take that water on any good day, why wouldn't you??? Weight works to your advantage. Old Bob, The Purist"Oh look!!! Another wing loading guru!!!!" That's what you said when I explained my slow cruise speed. Anything faster than 75kts and I was practically diving! So you DO acknowledge what I was perceiving? No engine in the glider and
to the aircraft, should you need to dump the water, thus leaving you outside of the safe (and legal) aft CG limits. So the pylon motor glider does have a CG advantage that helps offset it's weight by being further aft CG. In the case of the DG500, beingOne thing you didn't note is the CG advantage of an engine. The CG of a glider with an engine as opposed to wing ballast is obvious. Wing ballast can be accounted for using tail ballast, HOWEVER, you cannot add too much tail ballast
baby) won't tow my collosal beast, so I'm stuck self launching.Now that the engine is back in: you can REALLY feel the disadvantage. With two pilots and the engine it's even more so. If I had my druthers, though, I'd have that ridiculous Solo engine removed and never put it back in. But OBTB (
safety concern is another. I set a limit as to the max weight that MY tow plane would tow and that was the all up weight of the JS3's fully loaded with H2O and I even went a bit over that to tow you with your child. If I was your wife I would never letThere is more than one reason that I refused to tow you, it was a safety concern based on prior experiences with towing your Lead Sled. Having 14K volts of electricity staring me in the face is a big concern, your inability to realize a
explanation for getting a tow was that you did not want to put time on your new engine, so why did you buy a self launch motorglider. I think that the best thing for you to do would be just move on. Please let me know and I will refund you your dues outI have done thousands of tows and may I ask how many have you done? So please let me be the judge of what I consider safe, so, someday when you get more sailplane experience you will become more cognizant of the safety issues. Your only
Grob, but that's not in 100 OLC logs and "total horse****" right?OBTP stands for another thing to me. Hahahaha all I can say is you sure know how to dish the fun out but you certainly don't know how to take it. Old Bob The Moving Goalposts - it's funny that at the end of the runway I'm higher than the
that. It's heavy. Anything else? The very first takeoff wasn't pretty for margins. Yes. That I acknowledge. It was the first takeoff. Every subsequent has not been like that since. I was so focused on keeping my eyes on you that YES I didn't see how lowHave a good day. I'm not quitting. The club can take my money, and I'll wait you out. When you can cite a safety concern I'll hear it. But literally to this day you've not said an actual concern other than "it's too heavy". I'll give you
ground. Your opinion of safety brings nothing to the table. I'll leave the "old days" that you so proudly cite off the internet. 12,000 hours and 30 years of flying say otherwise to your pitiful judgement. Yes, the engine was started before I bought it.But I'm unsafe, while you buzz aircraft, pilots and guests of the club taking rides well within 500' while most certainly not landing. Don't ever come to me regarding safety while you perform low passes less than 50' from people on the
would certainly have more credibility if you were capable of towing and judge someone like yourself. Old Bob, The PuristYour last takeoff was not much better than your first, keep trying you may get the hang of it. There are only two people that I have ever refused to tow, you being one of them, that should tell you something. Maybe your assessment of towing
longer plays any role in aviation.Well the data doesn't lie, Bob. Why are YOU the only one who has an issue towing me or my glider with the "might" Pawnee? Suddenly it's a 180hp guerilla when I show up lol suddenly when we want to talk takeoff performance: wing loading no
then why did you buy a motorglider? You seem to pull out the motor on most occasions to get you back home, why not just take off with your own power as the POS was designed to do? It's Gorilla, not guerilla as you made reference to. Maybe if you had moreI do not own the tow plane anymore, our club owns the towplane, maybe you should ask the club for a tow. Why would you even want a tow if you are a self launch. Your explanation to me was that you just did not want to put time on your engine,
was absolutely nothing abnormal. He said he'd tow me again - I informed him of your choice words with me, and that he could suffer the same treatment. I strongly urged him not to cross you by offering to tow me again. His words? "A Super Cub could'veAh! There we go. Bob, I wasn't trying to publicly pressure you into towing me. I also wasn't and am not asking you for a tow. I'm actually not interested in you towing me and especially my children. Notice the last tow: the tow pilot said there
first leg. The second was on the 2901 triangle - and I couldn't relieve myself so I held over an airport until I could go. I came up 30km short, and successfully threaded the needle. Wow so amazing (insert sarcasm). One more thermal and the day was done.Maybe for the 104th glider flight I'll do the diamond goal again doing your "holy grail" around the lake again. That was frankly an easy trip. Why do you make it to be such a big deal? It was fun.
Oh, I've only motored out of a landout three times. One on a day when you couldn't have flown in a pure sailplane - because no one was there even if I could've gotten a tow. 20kts and you guys pack up and leave. I had a nice flight after that
to you as a soaring pilot. I enjoyed the chats. The moment I arrived with my glider you began down this road that we are on.So technically I've only used the engine to "motor home" once.
Bob, I'm not here to fight. I don't know what it is with you and me and where we got our hairs crossed, but I sure wish you'd bury the hatchet. I don't frankly care what you think of me anymore. And that's been pretty freeing. I used to look up
beer with you than get yelled at over nothing.That bottle of rum was a peace offering with no strings attached. I'll do it again. I expect zero in return. Just stop it with the "All My Children" converted to "All My Pilots" and "As the Propeller Turns" - it's nauseating. I'd rather have a
care - really. I'm only here to fire you up lol I won't stay long.YOU are why I bought a motorglider. YOU have run off a lot of people and brag about it. YOU are an example of why this sport is not doing well. Have fun, make fun of my glider. I don't care man. Just bury the hatchet and drop it. I just don't
on that thing. You have literally no idea. Ask Victor how often I am the one to close the big hangar up. Then, I'm usually there until 1-3am working on it by myself. All within the confines of the FARs I might add.The Solo got me as far as I wanted to go. Then it broke again. I'm not looking to save the hours. I'm trying to reduce the maintenance. I'm surprised it lasted that long before having another issue. You don't see how often I'm out there working
has billions of hours in sailplanes, but won't "say" they read the manual. You didn't get that? I was trying to tell you to tell him to SAY he read it. Get it? Man. And you were so angry with me after that lol I can't win with you. I'd have happilyGorilla, Guerilla, whatever. Don't act like I didn't ever offer to help. That was me that helped you with the strut. I didn't expect anything in return - nor did I think anything of it. You've called me to help out 1x time to sign off a guy who
was happy to get an aerotow. We were off in 200' and at 300' at the end of the runway. What's unsafe? Me? How so? Give me an actual data point or action that was unsafe. Just yelling that it's heavy doesn't mean much to me because I've never towed. HelpYou *never* said I couldn't be towed or that it wasn't allowed. So when I rejoined the club - I asked for a tow from another tow pilot and he gleefully said absolutely. It wasn't an issue, and my son, who's still scarred from the engine failure,
Or your tow.Again I haven't asked you to tow me since December when you suggested I self launch from now on. But you never said I couldn't be towed. To be clear - I appreciate it if you'd never speak to me like you did in March again. I don't want your money.
Instead of yelling at me and zero instruction on what I did wrong (or that my glider is heavy), they told me I did a great job. Really weird. I don't mind your other thread... Maybe I'll jump in later. I hope you have a great day Bob.Also, I'll let anyone but you be the judge of my safety. I've been to many glider clubs across the country now, and not a one had anything bad to say.... Weird. Every time I ask them to debrief how I can be better, same as I did when you towed me.
there would never even be a glider operation at X52 if it weren't for me, I started the club, funded the club, bought three Pawnee's for the club, bought sailplanes for rebuilding, worked out a LOA for increased safety within Class D with the FAA, andHey Slapdick, which is your nickname around the club, you should have been some type of fictional writer. Looking at situations through rose colored glasses creates false impressions, you seem to have a answer for everything. Just to let you know,
Now about running people off, the club should have never let you return after you requested your money back, which the club refunded. Old Bob, The PuristYou said "you have ADS-B" I took it for what you said, that it didn't matter.
Bob - we are all supremely grateful for what you've done.
I have an answer because I speak nothing but the truth. Not altered reality. Again, I hope you have a great day and get to go soaring soon.ADS-B had nothing to do with you violating our handshake agreement with the FAA! OBTP
On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 5:31:53 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:much less likely to occur. This came as a bit of a surprise to me. I thought my land out tolerance was pretty high. I have had a number of land outs in my first 3 glider seasons (and 100's in my 20+yrs of downwind hang gliding XC) and didn't think it was
On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 6:34:56 PM UTC-4, Jason Leonard wrote:
On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 6:57:08 AM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 1:15:34 AM UTC-4, Jason Leonard wrote:
On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 8:43:08 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 8:41:31 AM UTC-4, Jason Leonard wrote:
On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 6:47:45 AM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Sunday, April 23, 2023 at 11:49:51 PM UTC-4, Jason Leonard wrote:
On Sunday, April 23, 2023 at 5:46:25 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Sunday, April 23, 2023 at 2:50:09 PM UTC-4, Jason Leonard wrote:
On Sunday, April 23, 2023 at 6:34:06 AM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 6:28:48 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 12:15:24 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 11:33:18 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 3:00:56 PM UTC-7, John Johnson wrote:
On Tuesday, April 18, 2023 at 10:11:52 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
What you were suffering from is Retrieve Anxiety. This is where you turn back because you fear the inconvenience of a retrieve...
Yes - I agree.
I initially thought that self-launch capability would be 90+% of the MG benefit but came to realize that I'm now flying XC significantly more relaxed. The whole XC experience is more enjoyable knowing a retrieve hassle is
for me: I might learn the hassle factors of owning a complex MG would overcome the advantages and I would be saddled with an expensive glider I didn't enjoy that much. After 7mos, that fear is behind me and I'm truly enjoying this new environment. MaybeIt's certainly true that a lot of retrieves are much cheaper than buying a MG. But I can afford it and the focus was on flying when a tow wasn't available and increasing my overall soaring enjoyment. The biggest concern
saving your ass", unless the latter is qualified to "saving your ass from a tedious retrieve". In a real contest (not OLC!) a motorglider is at a distinct disadvantage, carrying ballast that cannot be dumped.JJThis is the very thing that Old Bob (in his regrettable ignorance) unknowingly complains about. It no doubt adds to OLC scores, or rather, Retrieve Anxiety detracts from OLC scores. It has nothing to do with safety or "
ballasted glider in that scenario, go back to the basics of sailplane flight and even you may figure it out. Old Bob, The PuristFitch, are you ok??? Carrying water, is pretty much standard procedure in contest, and you certainly want to spend more time running than you do thermaling. Even a motorglider or sustainer has a cruise advantage over a non
are most definitely not. Now we can even that out by requiring that the SG finish the contest with 200 lbs of ballast still aboard, to make it fair, if you'd prefer.Bob, you do realize that a SG has a wider range of wing loading available than a motorglider? Or maybe that is more ignorance showing. In strong conditions, between water and/or engine they are the same, in weak conditions they
it felt like a leaf in the wind compared to with the engine. The issue is the wing loading was SO low that I couldn't get any kind of speed without sinking to 20:1, in a 45:1 glider.Fitch, it's not what you know, it's what you don't know! I'll take that water on any good day, why wouldn't you??? Weight works to your advantage. Old Bob, The Purist"Oh look!!! Another wing loading guru!!!!" That's what you said when I explained my slow cruise speed. Anything faster than 75kts and I was practically diving! So you DO acknowledge what I was perceiving? No engine in the glider and
to the aircraft, should you need to dump the water, thus leaving you outside of the safe (and legal) aft CG limits. So the pylon motor glider does have a CG advantage that helps offset it's weight by being further aft CG. In the case of the DG500, beingOne thing you didn't note is the CG advantage of an engine. The CG of a glider with an engine as opposed to wing ballast is obvious. Wing ballast can be accounted for using tail ballast, HOWEVER, you cannot add too much tail ballast
baby) won't tow my collosal beast, so I'm stuck self launching.Now that the engine is back in: you can REALLY feel the disadvantage. With two pilots and the engine it's even more so. If I had my druthers, though, I'd have that ridiculous Solo engine removed and never put it back in. But OBTB (
a safety concern is another. I set a limit as to the max weight that MY tow plane would tow and that was the all up weight of the JS3's fully loaded with H2O and I even went a bit over that to tow you with your child. If I was your wife I would never letThere is more than one reason that I refused to tow you, it was a safety concern based on prior experiences with towing your Lead Sled. Having 14K volts of electricity staring me in the face is a big concern, your inability to realize
only explanation for getting a tow was that you did not want to put time on your new engine, so why did you buy a self launch motorglider. I think that the best thing for you to do would be just move on. Please let me know and I will refund you your duesI have done thousands of tows and may I ask how many have you done? So please let me be the judge of what I consider safe, so, someday when you get more sailplane experience you will become more cognizant of the safety issues. Your
the Grob, but that's not in 100 OLC logs and "total horse****" right?OBTP stands for another thing to me. Hahahaha all I can say is you sure know how to dish the fun out but you certainly don't know how to take it. Old Bob The Moving Goalposts - it's funny that at the end of the runway I'm higher than
you that. It's heavy. Anything else? The very first takeoff wasn't pretty for margins. Yes. That I acknowledge. It was the first takeoff. Every subsequent has not been like that since. I was so focused on keeping my eyes on you that YES I didn't see howHave a good day. I'm not quitting. The club can take my money, and I'll wait you out. When you can cite a safety concern I'll hear it. But literally to this day you've not said an actual concern other than "it's too heavy". I'll give
ground. Your opinion of safety brings nothing to the table. I'll leave the "old days" that you so proudly cite off the internet. 12,000 hours and 30 years of flying say otherwise to your pitiful judgement. Yes, the engine was started before I bought it.But I'm unsafe, while you buzz aircraft, pilots and guests of the club taking rides well within 500' while most certainly not landing. Don't ever come to me regarding safety while you perform low passes less than 50' from people on the
towing would certainly have more credibility if you were capable of towing and judge someone like yourself. Old Bob, The PuristYour last takeoff was not much better than your first, keep trying you may get the hang of it. There are only two people that I have ever refused to tow, you being one of them, that should tell you something. Maybe your assessment of
longer plays any role in aviation.Well the data doesn't lie, Bob. Why are YOU the only one who has an issue towing me or my glider with the "might" Pawnee? Suddenly it's a 180hp guerilla when I show up lol suddenly when we want to talk takeoff performance: wing loading no
then why did you buy a motorglider? You seem to pull out the motor on most occasions to get you back home, why not just take off with your own power as the POS was designed to do? It's Gorilla, not guerilla as you made reference to. Maybe if you had moreI do not own the tow plane anymore, our club owns the towplane, maybe you should ask the club for a tow. Why would you even want a tow if you are a self launch. Your explanation to me was that you just did not want to put time on your engine,
was absolutely nothing abnormal. He said he'd tow me again - I informed him of your choice words with me, and that he could suffer the same treatment. I strongly urged him not to cross you by offering to tow me again. His words? "A Super Cub could'veAh! There we go. Bob, I wasn't trying to publicly pressure you into towing me. I also wasn't and am not asking you for a tow. I'm actually not interested in you towing me and especially my children. Notice the last tow: the tow pilot said there
first leg. The second was on the 2901 triangle - and I couldn't relieve myself so I held over an airport until I could go. I came up 30km short, and successfully threaded the needle. Wow so amazing (insert sarcasm). One more thermal and the day was done.Maybe for the 104th glider flight I'll do the diamond goal again doing your "holy grail" around the lake again. That was frankly an easy trip. Why do you make it to be such a big deal? It was fun.
Oh, I've only motored out of a landout three times. One on a day when you couldn't have flown in a pure sailplane - because no one was there even if I could've gotten a tow. 20kts and you guys pack up and leave. I had a nice flight after that
to you as a soaring pilot. I enjoyed the chats. The moment I arrived with my glider you began down this road that we are on.So technically I've only used the engine to "motor home" once.
Bob, I'm not here to fight. I don't know what it is with you and me and where we got our hairs crossed, but I sure wish you'd bury the hatchet. I don't frankly care what you think of me anymore. And that's been pretty freeing. I used to look up
beer with you than get yelled at over nothing.That bottle of rum was a peace offering with no strings attached. I'll do it again. I expect zero in return. Just stop it with the "All My Children" converted to "All My Pilots" and "As the Propeller Turns" - it's nauseating. I'd rather have a
care - really. I'm only here to fire you up lol I won't stay long.YOU are why I bought a motorglider. YOU have run off a lot of people and brag about it. YOU are an example of why this sport is not doing well. Have fun, make fun of my glider. I don't care man. Just bury the hatchet and drop it. I just don't
on that thing. You have literally no idea. Ask Victor how often I am the one to close the big hangar up. Then, I'm usually there until 1-3am working on it by myself. All within the confines of the FARs I might add.The Solo got me as far as I wanted to go. Then it broke again. I'm not looking to save the hours. I'm trying to reduce the maintenance. I'm surprised it lasted that long before having another issue. You don't see how often I'm out there working
has billions of hours in sailplanes, but won't "say" they read the manual. You didn't get that? I was trying to tell you to tell him to SAY he read it. Get it? Man. And you were so angry with me after that lol I can't win with you. I'd have happilyGorilla, Guerilla, whatever. Don't act like I didn't ever offer to help. That was me that helped you with the strut. I didn't expect anything in return - nor did I think anything of it. You've called me to help out 1x time to sign off a guy who
was happy to get an aerotow. We were off in 200' and at 300' at the end of the runway. What's unsafe? Me? How so? Give me an actual data point or action that was unsafe. Just yelling that it's heavy doesn't mean much to me because I've never towed. HelpYou *never* said I couldn't be towed or that it wasn't allowed. So when I rejoined the club - I asked for a tow from another tow pilot and he gleefully said absolutely. It wasn't an issue, and my son, who's still scarred from the engine failure,
money. Or your tow.Again I haven't asked you to tow me since December when you suggested I self launch from now on. But you never said I couldn't be towed. To be clear - I appreciate it if you'd never speak to me like you did in March again. I don't want your
me. Instead of yelling at me and zero instruction on what I did wrong (or that my glider is heavy), they told me I did a great job. Really weird. I don't mind your other thread... Maybe I'll jump in later. I hope you have a great day Bob.Also, I'll let anyone but you be the judge of my safety. I've been to many glider clubs across the country now, and not a one had anything bad to say.... Weird. Every time I ask them to debrief how I can be better, same as I did when you towed
there would never even be a glider operation at X52 if it weren't for me, I started the club, funded the club, bought three Pawnee's for the club, bought sailplanes for rebuilding, worked out a LOA for increased safety within Class D with the FAA, andHey Slapdick, which is your nickname around the club, you should have been some type of fictional writer. Looking at situations through rose colored glasses creates false impressions, you seem to have a answer for everything. Just to let you know,
DSM-5, we do have a LOA, if you had the capacity to read the thread you would have been cognizant of the agreement. OBTPNow about running people off, the club should have never let you return after you requested your money back, which the club refunded. Old Bob, The PuristYou said "you have ADS-B" I took it for what you said, that it didn't matter.
Bob - we are all supremely grateful for what you've done.
Handshake? There is NO SUCH THING! You either have a Letter Of Agreement (LOA) or you DON'T.I have an answer because I speak nothing but the truth. Not altered reality. Again, I hope you have a great day and get to go soaring soon.ADS-B had nothing to do with you violating our handshake agreement with the FAA! OBTP
On Sunday, April 30, 2023 at 9:29:40 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:is much less likely to occur. This came as a bit of a surprise to me. I thought my land out tolerance was pretty high. I have had a number of land outs in my first 3 glider seasons (and 100's in my 20+yrs of downwind hang gliding XC) and didn't think it
On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 5:31:53 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 6:34:56 PM UTC-4, Jason Leonard wrote:
On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 6:57:08 AM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 1:15:34 AM UTC-4, Jason Leonard wrote:
On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 8:43:08 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 8:41:31 AM UTC-4, Jason Leonard wrote:
On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 6:47:45 AM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Sunday, April 23, 2023 at 11:49:51 PM UTC-4, Jason Leonard wrote:
On Sunday, April 23, 2023 at 5:46:25 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Sunday, April 23, 2023 at 2:50:09 PM UTC-4, Jason Leonard wrote:
On Sunday, April 23, 2023 at 6:34:06 AM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 6:28:48 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 12:15:24 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 11:33:18 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 3:00:56 PM UTC-7, John Johnson wrote:
On Tuesday, April 18, 2023 at 10:11:52 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
What you were suffering from is Retrieve Anxiety. This is where you turn back because you fear the inconvenience of a retrieve...
Yes - I agree.
I initially thought that self-launch capability would be 90+% of the MG benefit but came to realize that I'm now flying XC significantly more relaxed. The whole XC experience is more enjoyable knowing a retrieve hassle
for me: I might learn the hassle factors of owning a complex MG would overcome the advantages and I would be saddled with an expensive glider I didn't enjoy that much. After 7mos, that fear is behind me and I'm truly enjoying this new environment. MaybeIt's certainly true that a lot of retrieves are much cheaper than buying a MG. But I can afford it and the focus was on flying when a tow wasn't available and increasing my overall soaring enjoyment. The biggest concern
saving your ass", unless the latter is qualified to "saving your ass from a tedious retrieve". In a real contest (not OLC!) a motorglider is at a distinct disadvantage, carrying ballast that cannot be dumped.JJThis is the very thing that Old Bob (in his regrettable ignorance) unknowingly complains about. It no doubt adds to OLC scores, or rather, Retrieve Anxiety detracts from OLC scores. It has nothing to do with safety or "
ballasted glider in that scenario, go back to the basics of sailplane flight and even you may figure it out. Old Bob, The PuristFitch, are you ok??? Carrying water, is pretty much standard procedure in contest, and you certainly want to spend more time running than you do thermaling. Even a motorglider or sustainer has a cruise advantage over a non
they are most definitely not. Now we can even that out by requiring that the SG finish the contest with 200 lbs of ballast still aboard, to make it fair, if you'd prefer.Bob, you do realize that a SG has a wider range of wing loading available than a motorglider? Or maybe that is more ignorance showing. In strong conditions, between water and/or engine they are the same, in weak conditions
and it felt like a leaf in the wind compared to with the engine. The issue is the wing loading was SO low that I couldn't get any kind of speed without sinking to 20:1, in a 45:1 glider.Fitch, it's not what you know, it's what you don't know! I'll take that water on any good day, why wouldn't you??? Weight works to your advantage. Old Bob, The Purist"Oh look!!! Another wing loading guru!!!!" That's what you said when I explained my slow cruise speed. Anything faster than 75kts and I was practically diving! So you DO acknowledge what I was perceiving? No engine in the glider
ballast to the aircraft, should you need to dump the water, thus leaving you outside of the safe (and legal) aft CG limits. So the pylon motor glider does have a CG advantage that helps offset it's weight by being further aft CG. In the case of the DG500,One thing you didn't note is the CG advantage of an engine. The CG of a glider with an engine as opposed to wing ballast is obvious. Wing ballast can be accounted for using tail ballast, HOWEVER, you cannot add too much tail
baby) won't tow my collosal beast, so I'm stuck self launching.Now that the engine is back in: you can REALLY feel the disadvantage. With two pilots and the engine it's even more so. If I had my druthers, though, I'd have that ridiculous Solo engine removed and never put it back in. But OBTB (
realize a safety concern is another. I set a limit as to the max weight that MY tow plane would tow and that was the all up weight of the JS3's fully loaded with H2O and I even went a bit over that to tow you with your child. If I was your wife I wouldThere is more than one reason that I refused to tow you, it was a safety concern based on prior experiences with towing your Lead Sled. Having 14K volts of electricity staring me in the face is a big concern, your inability to
only explanation for getting a tow was that you did not want to put time on your new engine, so why did you buy a self launch motorglider. I think that the best thing for you to do would be just move on. Please let me know and I will refund you your duesI have done thousands of tows and may I ask how many have you done? So please let me be the judge of what I consider safe, so, someday when you get more sailplane experience you will become more cognizant of the safety issues. Your
the Grob, but that's not in 100 OLC logs and "total horse****" right?OBTP stands for another thing to me. Hahahaha all I can say is you sure know how to dish the fun out but you certainly don't know how to take it. Old Bob The Moving Goalposts - it's funny that at the end of the runway I'm higher than
you that. It's heavy. Anything else? The very first takeoff wasn't pretty for margins. Yes. That I acknowledge. It was the first takeoff. Every subsequent has not been like that since. I was so focused on keeping my eyes on you that YES I didn't see howHave a good day. I'm not quitting. The club can take my money, and I'll wait you out. When you can cite a safety concern I'll hear it. But literally to this day you've not said an actual concern other than "it's too heavy". I'll give
the ground. Your opinion of safety brings nothing to the table. I'll leave the "old days" that you so proudly cite off the internet. 12,000 hours and 30 years of flying say otherwise to your pitiful judgement. Yes, the engine was started before I boughtBut I'm unsafe, while you buzz aircraft, pilots and guests of the club taking rides well within 500' while most certainly not landing. Don't ever come to me regarding safety while you perform low passes less than 50' from people on
towing would certainly have more credibility if you were capable of towing and judge someone like yourself. Old Bob, The PuristYour last takeoff was not much better than your first, keep trying you may get the hang of it. There are only two people that I have ever refused to tow, you being one of them, that should tell you something. Maybe your assessment of
longer plays any role in aviation.Well the data doesn't lie, Bob. Why are YOU the only one who has an issue towing me or my glider with the "might" Pawnee? Suddenly it's a 180hp guerilla when I show up lol suddenly when we want to talk takeoff performance: wing loading no
engine, then why did you buy a motorglider? You seem to pull out the motor on most occasions to get you back home, why not just take off with your own power as the POS was designed to do? It's Gorilla, not guerilla as you made reference to. Maybe if youI do not own the tow plane anymore, our club owns the towplane, maybe you should ask the club for a tow. Why would you even want a tow if you are a self launch. Your explanation to me was that you just did not want to put time on your
there was absolutely nothing abnormal. He said he'd tow me again - I informed him of your choice words with me, and that he could suffer the same treatment. I strongly urged him not to cross you by offering to tow me again. His words? "A Super Cub could'Ah! There we go. Bob, I wasn't trying to publicly pressure you into towing me. I also wasn't and am not asking you for a tow. I'm actually not interested in you towing me and especially my children. Notice the last tow: the tow pilot said
first leg. The second was on the 2901 triangle - and I couldn't relieve myself so I held over an airport until I could go. I came up 30km short, and successfully threaded the needle. Wow so amazing (insert sarcasm). One more thermal and the day was done.Maybe for the 104th glider flight I'll do the diamond goal again doing your "holy grail" around the lake again. That was frankly an easy trip. Why do you make it to be such a big deal? It was fun.
Oh, I've only motored out of a landout three times. One on a day when you couldn't have flown in a pure sailplane - because no one was there even if I could've gotten a tow. 20kts and you guys pack up and leave. I had a nice flight after that
up to you as a soaring pilot. I enjoyed the chats. The moment I arrived with my glider you began down this road that we are on.So technically I've only used the engine to "motor home" once.
Bob, I'm not here to fight. I don't know what it is with you and me and where we got our hairs crossed, but I sure wish you'd bury the hatchet. I don't frankly care what you think of me anymore. And that's been pretty freeing. I used to look
a beer with you than get yelled at over nothing.That bottle of rum was a peace offering with no strings attached. I'll do it again. I expect zero in return. Just stop it with the "All My Children" converted to "All My Pilots" and "As the Propeller Turns" - it's nauseating. I'd rather have
care - really. I'm only here to fire you up lol I won't stay long.YOU are why I bought a motorglider. YOU have run off a lot of people and brag about it. YOU are an example of why this sport is not doing well. Have fun, make fun of my glider. I don't care man. Just bury the hatchet and drop it. I just don't
working on that thing. You have literally no idea. Ask Victor how often I am the one to close the big hangar up. Then, I'm usually there until 1-3am working on it by myself. All within the confines of the FARs I might add.The Solo got me as far as I wanted to go. Then it broke again. I'm not looking to save the hours. I'm trying to reduce the maintenance. I'm surprised it lasted that long before having another issue. You don't see how often I'm out there
who has billions of hours in sailplanes, but won't "say" they read the manual. You didn't get that? I was trying to tell you to tell him to SAY he read it. Get it? Man. And you were so angry with me after that lol I can't win with you. I'd have happilyGorilla, Guerilla, whatever. Don't act like I didn't ever offer to help. That was me that helped you with the strut. I didn't expect anything in return - nor did I think anything of it. You've called me to help out 1x time to sign off a guy
failure, was happy to get an aerotow. We were off in 200' and at 300' at the end of the runway. What's unsafe? Me? How so? Give me an actual data point or action that was unsafe. Just yelling that it's heavy doesn't mean much to me because I've neverYou *never* said I couldn't be towed or that it wasn't allowed. So when I rejoined the club - I asked for a tow from another tow pilot and he gleefully said absolutely. It wasn't an issue, and my son, who's still scarred from the engine
money. Or your tow.Again I haven't asked you to tow me since December when you suggested I self launch from now on. But you never said I couldn't be towed. To be clear - I appreciate it if you'd never speak to me like you did in March again. I don't want your
towed me. Instead of yelling at me and zero instruction on what I did wrong (or that my glider is heavy), they told me I did a great job. Really weird. I don't mind your other thread... Maybe I'll jump in later. I hope you have a great day Bob.Also, I'll let anyone but you be the judge of my safety. I've been to many glider clubs across the country now, and not a one had anything bad to say.... Weird. Every time I ask them to debrief how I can be better, same as I did when you
know, there would never even be a glider operation at X52 if it weren't for me, I started the club, funded the club, bought three Pawnee's for the club, bought sailplanes for rebuilding, worked out a LOA for increased safety within Class D with the FAA,Hey Slapdick, which is your nickname around the club, you should have been some type of fictional writer. Looking at situations through rose colored glasses creates false impressions, you seem to have a answer for everything. Just to let you
Now about running people off, the club should have never let you return after you requested your money back, which the club refunded. Old Bob, The PuristYou said "you have ADS-B" I took it for what you said, that it didn't matter.
Bob - we are all supremely grateful for what you've done.
DSM-5, we do have a LOA, if you had the capacity to read the thread you would have been cognizant of the agreement. OBTPHandshake? There is NO SUCH THING! You either have a Letter Of Agreement (LOA) or you DON'T.I have an answer because I speak nothing but the truth. Not altered reality. Again, I hope you have a great day and get to go soaring soon.ADS-B had nothing to do with you violating our handshake agreement with the FAA! OBTP
On Monday, May 1, 2023 at 4:09:51 AM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:is much less likely to occur. This came as a bit of a surprise to me. I thought my land out tolerance was pretty high. I have had a number of land outs in my first 3 glider seasons (and 100's in my 20+yrs of downwind hang gliding XC) and didn't think it
On Sunday, April 30, 2023 at 9:29:40 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 5:31:53 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 6:34:56 PM UTC-4, Jason Leonard wrote:
On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 6:57:08 AM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 1:15:34 AM UTC-4, Jason Leonard wrote:
On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 8:43:08 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 8:41:31 AM UTC-4, Jason Leonard wrote:
On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 6:47:45 AM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Sunday, April 23, 2023 at 11:49:51 PM UTC-4, Jason Leonard wrote:
On Sunday, April 23, 2023 at 5:46:25 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Sunday, April 23, 2023 at 2:50:09 PM UTC-4, Jason Leonard wrote:
On Sunday, April 23, 2023 at 6:34:06 AM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 6:28:48 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 12:15:24 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 11:33:18 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 3:00:56 PM UTC-7, John Johnson wrote:
On Tuesday, April 18, 2023 at 10:11:52 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
What you were suffering from is Retrieve Anxiety. This is where you turn back because you fear the inconvenience of a retrieve...
Yes - I agree.
I initially thought that self-launch capability would be 90+% of the MG benefit but came to realize that I'm now flying XC significantly more relaxed. The whole XC experience is more enjoyable knowing a retrieve hassle
concern for me: I might learn the hassle factors of owning a complex MG would overcome the advantages and I would be saddled with an expensive glider I didn't enjoy that much. After 7mos, that fear is behind me and I'm truly enjoying this new environment.It's certainly true that a lot of retrieves are much cheaper than buying a MG. But I can afford it and the focus was on flying when a tow wasn't available and increasing my overall soaring enjoyment. The biggest
saving your ass", unless the latter is qualified to "saving your ass from a tedious retrieve". In a real contest (not OLC!) a motorglider is at a distinct disadvantage, carrying ballast that cannot be dumped.JJThis is the very thing that Old Bob (in his regrettable ignorance) unknowingly complains about. It no doubt adds to OLC scores, or rather, Retrieve Anxiety detracts from OLC scores. It has nothing to do with safety or "
ballasted glider in that scenario, go back to the basics of sailplane flight and even you may figure it out. Old Bob, The PuristFitch, are you ok??? Carrying water, is pretty much standard procedure in contest, and you certainly want to spend more time running than you do thermaling. Even a motorglider or sustainer has a cruise advantage over a non
they are most definitely not. Now we can even that out by requiring that the SG finish the contest with 200 lbs of ballast still aboard, to make it fair, if you'd prefer.Bob, you do realize that a SG has a wider range of wing loading available than a motorglider? Or maybe that is more ignorance showing. In strong conditions, between water and/or engine they are the same, in weak conditions
and it felt like a leaf in the wind compared to with the engine. The issue is the wing loading was SO low that I couldn't get any kind of speed without sinking to 20:1, in a 45:1 glider.Fitch, it's not what you know, it's what you don't know! I'll take that water on any good day, why wouldn't you??? Weight works to your advantage. Old Bob, The Purist"Oh look!!! Another wing loading guru!!!!" That's what you said when I explained my slow cruise speed. Anything faster than 75kts and I was practically diving! So you DO acknowledge what I was perceiving? No engine in the glider
ballast to the aircraft, should you need to dump the water, thus leaving you outside of the safe (and legal) aft CG limits. So the pylon motor glider does have a CG advantage that helps offset it's weight by being further aft CG. In the case of the DG500,One thing you didn't note is the CG advantage of an engine. The CG of a glider with an engine as opposed to wing ballast is obvious. Wing ballast can be accounted for using tail ballast, HOWEVER, you cannot add too much tail
OBTB (baby) won't tow my collosal beast, so I'm stuck self launching.Now that the engine is back in: you can REALLY feel the disadvantage. With two pilots and the engine it's even more so. If I had my druthers, though, I'd have that ridiculous Solo engine removed and never put it back in. But
realize a safety concern is another. I set a limit as to the max weight that MY tow plane would tow and that was the all up weight of the JS3's fully loaded with H2O and I even went a bit over that to tow you with your child. If I was your wife I wouldThere is more than one reason that I refused to tow you, it was a safety concern based on prior experiences with towing your Lead Sled. Having 14K volts of electricity staring me in the face is a big concern, your inability to
Your only explanation for getting a tow was that you did not want to put time on your new engine, so why did you buy a self launch motorglider. I think that the best thing for you to do would be just move on. Please let me know and I will refund you yourI have done thousands of tows and may I ask how many have you done? So please let me be the judge of what I consider safe, so, someday when you get more sailplane experience you will become more cognizant of the safety issues.
than the Grob, but that's not in 100 OLC logs and "total horse****" right?OBTP stands for another thing to me. Hahahaha all I can say is you sure know how to dish the fun out but you certainly don't know how to take it. Old Bob The Moving Goalposts - it's funny that at the end of the runway I'm higher
give you that. It's heavy. Anything else? The very first takeoff wasn't pretty for margins. Yes. That I acknowledge. It was the first takeoff. Every subsequent has not been like that since. I was so focused on keeping my eyes on you that YES I didn't seeHave a good day. I'm not quitting. The club can take my money, and I'll wait you out. When you can cite a safety concern I'll hear it. But literally to this day you've not said an actual concern other than "it's too heavy". I'll
the ground. Your opinion of safety brings nothing to the table. I'll leave the "old days" that you so proudly cite off the internet. 12,000 hours and 30 years of flying say otherwise to your pitiful judgement. Yes, the engine was started before I boughtBut I'm unsafe, while you buzz aircraft, pilots and guests of the club taking rides well within 500' while most certainly not landing. Don't ever come to me regarding safety while you perform low passes less than 50' from people on
towing would certainly have more credibility if you were capable of towing and judge someone like yourself. Old Bob, The PuristYour last takeoff was not much better than your first, keep trying you may get the hang of it. There are only two people that I have ever refused to tow, you being one of them, that should tell you something. Maybe your assessment of
no longer plays any role in aviation.Well the data doesn't lie, Bob. Why are YOU the only one who has an issue towing me or my glider with the "might" Pawnee? Suddenly it's a 180hp guerilla when I show up lol suddenly when we want to talk takeoff performance: wing loading
engine, then why did you buy a motorglider? You seem to pull out the motor on most occasions to get you back home, why not just take off with your own power as the POS was designed to do? It's Gorilla, not guerilla as you made reference to. Maybe if youI do not own the tow plane anymore, our club owns the towplane, maybe you should ask the club for a tow. Why would you even want a tow if you are a self launch. Your explanation to me was that you just did not want to put time on your
there was absolutely nothing abnormal. He said he'd tow me again - I informed him of your choice words with me, and that he could suffer the same treatment. I strongly urged him not to cross you by offering to tow me again. His words? "A Super Cub could'Ah! There we go. Bob, I wasn't trying to publicly pressure you into towing me. I also wasn't and am not asking you for a tow. I'm actually not interested in you towing me and especially my children. Notice the last tow: the tow pilot said
that first leg. The second was on the 2901 triangle - and I couldn't relieve myself so I held over an airport until I could go. I came up 30km short, and successfully threaded the needle. Wow so amazing (insert sarcasm). One more thermal and the day wasMaybe for the 104th glider flight I'll do the diamond goal again doing your "holy grail" around the lake again. That was frankly an easy trip. Why do you make it to be such a big deal? It was fun.
Oh, I've only motored out of a landout three times. One on a day when you couldn't have flown in a pure sailplane - because no one was there even if I could've gotten a tow. 20kts and you guys pack up and leave. I had a nice flight after
look up to you as a soaring pilot. I enjoyed the chats. The moment I arrived with my glider you began down this road that we are on.So technically I've only used the engine to "motor home" once.
Bob, I'm not here to fight. I don't know what it is with you and me and where we got our hairs crossed, but I sure wish you'd bury the hatchet. I don't frankly care what you think of me anymore. And that's been pretty freeing. I used to
have a beer with you than get yelled at over nothing.That bottle of rum was a peace offering with no strings attached. I'll do it again. I expect zero in return. Just stop it with the "All My Children" converted to "All My Pilots" and "As the Propeller Turns" - it's nauseating. I'd rather
t care - really. I'm only here to fire you up lol I won't stay long.YOU are why I bought a motorglider. YOU have run off a lot of people and brag about it. YOU are an example of why this sport is not doing well. Have fun, make fun of my glider. I don't care man. Just bury the hatchet and drop it. I just don'
working on that thing. You have literally no idea. Ask Victor how often I am the one to close the big hangar up. Then, I'm usually there until 1-3am working on it by myself. All within the confines of the FARs I might add.The Solo got me as far as I wanted to go. Then it broke again. I'm not looking to save the hours. I'm trying to reduce the maintenance. I'm surprised it lasted that long before having another issue. You don't see how often I'm out there
who has billions of hours in sailplanes, but won't "say" they read the manual. You didn't get that? I was trying to tell you to tell him to SAY he read it. Get it? Man. And you were so angry with me after that lol I can't win with you. I'd have happilyGorilla, Guerilla, whatever. Don't act like I didn't ever offer to help. That was me that helped you with the strut. I didn't expect anything in return - nor did I think anything of it. You've called me to help out 1x time to sign off a guy
failure, was happy to get an aerotow. We were off in 200' and at 300' at the end of the runway. What's unsafe? Me? How so? Give me an actual data point or action that was unsafe. Just yelling that it's heavy doesn't mean much to me because I've neverYou *never* said I couldn't be towed or that it wasn't allowed. So when I rejoined the club - I asked for a tow from another tow pilot and he gleefully said absolutely. It wasn't an issue, and my son, who's still scarred from the engine
money. Or your tow.Again I haven't asked you to tow me since December when you suggested I self launch from now on. But you never said I couldn't be towed. To be clear - I appreciate it if you'd never speak to me like you did in March again. I don't want your
towed me. Instead of yelling at me and zero instruction on what I did wrong (or that my glider is heavy), they told me I did a great job. Really weird. I don't mind your other thread... Maybe I'll jump in later. I hope you have a great day Bob.Also, I'll let anyone but you be the judge of my safety. I've been to many glider clubs across the country now, and not a one had anything bad to say.... Weird. Every time I ask them to debrief how I can be better, same as I did when you
know, there would never even be a glider operation at X52 if it weren't for me, I started the club, funded the club, bought three Pawnee's for the club, bought sailplanes for rebuilding, worked out a LOA for increased safety within Class D with the FAA,Hey Slapdick, which is your nickname around the club, you should have been some type of fictional writer. Looking at situations through rose colored glasses creates false impressions, you seem to have a answer for everything. Just to let you
No Tom, not confused, yet trying to enlighten your ability to understand what an agreement is both written and verbal. I will give you a few points for a good question, but a verbal agreement is a parol contract. OBTPNow about running people off, the club should have never let you return after you requested your money back, which the club refunded. Old Bob, The PuristYou said "you have ADS-B" I took it for what you said, that it didn't matter.
Bob - we are all supremely grateful for what you've done.
Hey Bobby, it was YOU that said the agreement was a "handshake" one. Are you getting confused (that's DSM-5 material, bud)?DSM-5, we do have a LOA, if you had the capacity to read the thread you would have been cognizant of the agreement. OBTPHandshake? There is NO SUCH THING! You either have a Letter Of Agreement (LOA) or you DON'T.I have an answer because I speak nothing but the truth. Not altered reality. Again, I hope you have a great day and get to go soaring soon.ADS-B had nothing to do with you violating our handshake agreement with the FAA! OBTP
Tom 2G
On Monday, May 1, 2023 at 11:52:11 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote:hassle is much less likely to occur. This came as a bit of a surprise to me. I thought my land out tolerance was pretty high. I have had a number of land outs in my first 3 glider seasons (and 100's in my 20+yrs of downwind hang gliding XC) and didn't
On Monday, May 1, 2023 at 4:09:51 AM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Sunday, April 30, 2023 at 9:29:40 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 5:31:53 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 6:34:56 PM UTC-4, Jason Leonard wrote:
On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 6:57:08 AM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 1:15:34 AM UTC-4, Jason Leonard wrote:
On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 8:43:08 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 8:41:31 AM UTC-4, Jason Leonard wrote:
On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 6:47:45 AM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Sunday, April 23, 2023 at 11:49:51 PM UTC-4, Jason Leonard wrote:
On Sunday, April 23, 2023 at 5:46:25 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Sunday, April 23, 2023 at 2:50:09 PM UTC-4, Jason Leonard wrote:
On Sunday, April 23, 2023 at 6:34:06 AM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 6:28:48 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 12:15:24 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 11:33:18 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 3:00:56 PM UTC-7, John Johnson wrote:
On Tuesday, April 18, 2023 at 10:11:52 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
What you were suffering from is Retrieve Anxiety. This is where you turn back because you fear the inconvenience of a retrieve...
Yes - I agree.
I initially thought that self-launch capability would be 90+% of the MG benefit but came to realize that I'm now flying XC significantly more relaxed. The whole XC experience is more enjoyable knowing a retrieve
concern for me: I might learn the hassle factors of owning a complex MG would overcome the advantages and I would be saddled with an expensive glider I didn't enjoy that much. After 7mos, that fear is behind me and I'm truly enjoying this new environment.It's certainly true that a lot of retrieves are much cheaper than buying a MG. But I can afford it and the focus was on flying when a tow wasn't available and increasing my overall soaring enjoyment. The biggest
saving your ass", unless the latter is qualified to "saving your ass from a tedious retrieve". In a real contest (not OLC!) a motorglider is at a distinct disadvantage, carrying ballast that cannot be dumped.JJThis is the very thing that Old Bob (in his regrettable ignorance) unknowingly complains about. It no doubt adds to OLC scores, or rather, Retrieve Anxiety detracts from OLC scores. It has nothing to do with safety or "
non ballasted glider in that scenario, go back to the basics of sailplane flight and even you may figure it out. Old Bob, The PuristFitch, are you ok??? Carrying water, is pretty much standard procedure in contest, and you certainly want to spend more time running than you do thermaling. Even a motorglider or sustainer has a cruise advantage over a
they are most definitely not. Now we can even that out by requiring that the SG finish the contest with 200 lbs of ballast still aboard, to make it fair, if you'd prefer.Bob, you do realize that a SG has a wider range of wing loading available than a motorglider? Or maybe that is more ignorance showing. In strong conditions, between water and/or engine they are the same, in weak conditions
glider and it felt like a leaf in the wind compared to with the engine. The issue is the wing loading was SO low that I couldn't get any kind of speed without sinking to 20:1, in a 45:1 glider.Fitch, it's not what you know, it's what you don't know! I'll take that water on any good day, why wouldn't you??? Weight works to your advantage. Old Bob, The Purist"Oh look!!! Another wing loading guru!!!!" That's what you said when I explained my slow cruise speed. Anything faster than 75kts and I was practically diving! So you DO acknowledge what I was perceiving? No engine in the
ballast to the aircraft, should you need to dump the water, thus leaving you outside of the safe (and legal) aft CG limits. So the pylon motor glider does have a CG advantage that helps offset it's weight by being further aft CG. In the case of the DG500,One thing you didn't note is the CG advantage of an engine. The CG of a glider with an engine as opposed to wing ballast is obvious. Wing ballast can be accounted for using tail ballast, HOWEVER, you cannot add too much tail
OBTB (baby) won't tow my collosal beast, so I'm stuck self launching.Now that the engine is back in: you can REALLY feel the disadvantage. With two pilots and the engine it's even more so. If I had my druthers, though, I'd have that ridiculous Solo engine removed and never put it back in. But
realize a safety concern is another. I set a limit as to the max weight that MY tow plane would tow and that was the all up weight of the JS3's fully loaded with H2O and I even went a bit over that to tow you with your child. If I was your wife I wouldThere is more than one reason that I refused to tow you, it was a safety concern based on prior experiences with towing your Lead Sled. Having 14K volts of electricity staring me in the face is a big concern, your inability to
Your only explanation for getting a tow was that you did not want to put time on your new engine, so why did you buy a self launch motorglider. I think that the best thing for you to do would be just move on. Please let me know and I will refund you yourI have done thousands of tows and may I ask how many have you done? So please let me be the judge of what I consider safe, so, someday when you get more sailplane experience you will become more cognizant of the safety issues.
than the Grob, but that's not in 100 OLC logs and "total horse****" right?OBTP stands for another thing to me. Hahahaha all I can say is you sure know how to dish the fun out but you certainly don't know how to take it. Old Bob The Moving Goalposts - it's funny that at the end of the runway I'm higher
give you that. It's heavy. Anything else? The very first takeoff wasn't pretty for margins. Yes. That I acknowledge. It was the first takeoff. Every subsequent has not been like that since. I was so focused on keeping my eyes on you that YES I didn't seeHave a good day. I'm not quitting. The club can take my money, and I'll wait you out. When you can cite a safety concern I'll hear it. But literally to this day you've not said an actual concern other than "it's too heavy". I'll
on the ground. Your opinion of safety brings nothing to the table. I'll leave the "old days" that you so proudly cite off the internet. 12,000 hours and 30 years of flying say otherwise to your pitiful judgement. Yes, the engine was started before IBut I'm unsafe, while you buzz aircraft, pilots and guests of the club taking rides well within 500' while most certainly not landing. Don't ever come to me regarding safety while you perform low passes less than 50' from people
of towing would certainly have more credibility if you were capable of towing and judge someone like yourself. Old Bob, The PuristYour last takeoff was not much better than your first, keep trying you may get the hang of it. There are only two people that I have ever refused to tow, you being one of them, that should tell you something. Maybe your assessment
loading no longer plays any role in aviation.Well the data doesn't lie, Bob. Why are YOU the only one who has an issue towing me or my glider with the "might" Pawnee? Suddenly it's a 180hp guerilla when I show up lol suddenly when we want to talk takeoff performance: wing
engine, then why did you buy a motorglider? You seem to pull out the motor on most occasions to get you back home, why not just take off with your own power as the POS was designed to do? It's Gorilla, not guerilla as you made reference to. Maybe if youI do not own the tow plane anymore, our club owns the towplane, maybe you should ask the club for a tow. Why would you even want a tow if you are a self launch. Your explanation to me was that you just did not want to put time on your
there was absolutely nothing abnormal. He said he'd tow me again - I informed him of your choice words with me, and that he could suffer the same treatment. I strongly urged him not to cross you by offering to tow me again. His words? "A Super Cub could'Ah! There we go. Bob, I wasn't trying to publicly pressure you into towing me. I also wasn't and am not asking you for a tow. I'm actually not interested in you towing me and especially my children. Notice the last tow: the tow pilot said
that first leg. The second was on the 2901 triangle - and I couldn't relieve myself so I held over an airport until I could go. I came up 30km short, and successfully threaded the needle. Wow so amazing (insert sarcasm). One more thermal and the day wasMaybe for the 104th glider flight I'll do the diamond goal again doing your "holy grail" around the lake again. That was frankly an easy trip. Why do you make it to be such a big deal? It was fun.
Oh, I've only motored out of a landout three times. One on a day when you couldn't have flown in a pure sailplane - because no one was there even if I could've gotten a tow. 20kts and you guys pack up and leave. I had a nice flight after
look up to you as a soaring pilot. I enjoyed the chats. The moment I arrived with my glider you began down this road that we are on.So technically I've only used the engine to "motor home" once.
Bob, I'm not here to fight. I don't know what it is with you and me and where we got our hairs crossed, but I sure wish you'd bury the hatchet. I don't frankly care what you think of me anymore. And that's been pretty freeing. I used to
have a beer with you than get yelled at over nothing.That bottle of rum was a peace offering with no strings attached. I'll do it again. I expect zero in return. Just stop it with the "All My Children" converted to "All My Pilots" and "As the Propeller Turns" - it's nauseating. I'd rather
don't care - really. I'm only here to fire you up lol I won't stay long.YOU are why I bought a motorglider. YOU have run off a lot of people and brag about it. YOU are an example of why this sport is not doing well. Have fun, make fun of my glider. I don't care man. Just bury the hatchet and drop it. I just
working on that thing. You have literally no idea. Ask Victor how often I am the one to close the big hangar up. Then, I'm usually there until 1-3am working on it by myself. All within the confines of the FARs I might add.The Solo got me as far as I wanted to go. Then it broke again. I'm not looking to save the hours. I'm trying to reduce the maintenance. I'm surprised it lasted that long before having another issue. You don't see how often I'm out there
guy who has billions of hours in sailplanes, but won't "say" they read the manual. You didn't get that? I was trying to tell you to tell him to SAY he read it. Get it? Man. And you were so angry with me after that lol I can't win with you. I'd haveGorilla, Guerilla, whatever. Don't act like I didn't ever offer to help. That was me that helped you with the strut. I didn't expect anything in return - nor did I think anything of it. You've called me to help out 1x time to sign off a
failure, was happy to get an aerotow. We were off in 200' and at 300' at the end of the runway. What's unsafe? Me? How so? Give me an actual data point or action that was unsafe. Just yelling that it's heavy doesn't mean much to me because I've neverYou *never* said I couldn't be towed or that it wasn't allowed. So when I rejoined the club - I asked for a tow from another tow pilot and he gleefully said absolutely. It wasn't an issue, and my son, who's still scarred from the engine
your money. Or your tow.Again I haven't asked you to tow me since December when you suggested I self launch from now on. But you never said I couldn't be towed. To be clear - I appreciate it if you'd never speak to me like you did in March again. I don't want
towed me. Instead of yelling at me and zero instruction on what I did wrong (or that my glider is heavy), they told me I did a great job. Really weird. I don't mind your other thread... Maybe I'll jump in later. I hope you have a great day Bob.Also, I'll let anyone but you be the judge of my safety. I've been to many glider clubs across the country now, and not a one had anything bad to say.... Weird. Every time I ask them to debrief how I can be better, same as I did when you
you know, there would never even be a glider operation at X52 if it weren't for me, I started the club, funded the club, bought three Pawnee's for the club, bought sailplanes for rebuilding, worked out a LOA for increased safety within Class D with theHey Slapdick, which is your nickname around the club, you should have been some type of fictional writer. Looking at situations through rose colored glasses creates false impressions, you seem to have a answer for everything. Just to let
Now about running people off, the club should have never let you return after you requested your money back, which the club refunded. Old Bob, The PuristYou said "you have ADS-B" I took it for what you said, that it didn't matter.
Bob - we are all supremely grateful for what you've done.
Hey Bobby, it was YOU that said the agreement was a "handshake" one. Are you getting confused (that's DSM-5 material, bud)?DSM-5, we do have a LOA, if you had the capacity to read the thread you would have been cognizant of the agreement. OBTPHandshake? There is NO SUCH THING! You either have a Letter Of Agreement (LOA) or you DON'T.I have an answer because I speak nothing but the truth. Not altered reality. Again, I hope you have a great day and get to go soaring soon.ADS-B had nothing to do with you violating our handshake agreement with the FAA! OBTP
Tom 2GNo Tom, not confused, yet trying to enlighten your ability to understand what an agreement is both written and verbal. I will give you a few points for a good question, but a verbal agreement is a parol contract. OBTP
On Monday, May 1, 2023 at 1:32:29 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:hassle is much less likely to occur. This came as a bit of a surprise to me. I thought my land out tolerance was pretty high. I have had a number of land outs in my first 3 glider seasons (and 100's in my 20+yrs of downwind hang gliding XC) and didn't
On Monday, May 1, 2023 at 11:52:11 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
On Monday, May 1, 2023 at 4:09:51 AM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Sunday, April 30, 2023 at 9:29:40 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 5:31:53 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 6:34:56 PM UTC-4, Jason Leonard wrote:
On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 6:57:08 AM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 1:15:34 AM UTC-4, Jason Leonard wrote:
On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 8:43:08 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 8:41:31 AM UTC-4, Jason Leonard wrote:
On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 6:47:45 AM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Sunday, April 23, 2023 at 11:49:51 PM UTC-4, Jason Leonard wrote:
On Sunday, April 23, 2023 at 5:46:25 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Sunday, April 23, 2023 at 2:50:09 PM UTC-4, Jason Leonard wrote:
On Sunday, April 23, 2023 at 6:34:06 AM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 6:28:48 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 12:15:24 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 11:33:18 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 3:00:56 PM UTC-7, John Johnson wrote:
On Tuesday, April 18, 2023 at 10:11:52 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
What you were suffering from is Retrieve Anxiety. This is where you turn back because you fear the inconvenience of a retrieve...
Yes - I agree.
I initially thought that self-launch capability would be 90+% of the MG benefit but came to realize that I'm now flying XC significantly more relaxed. The whole XC experience is more enjoyable knowing a retrieve
concern for me: I might learn the hassle factors of owning a complex MG would overcome the advantages and I would be saddled with an expensive glider I didn't enjoy that much. After 7mos, that fear is behind me and I'm truly enjoying this new environment.It's certainly true that a lot of retrieves are much cheaper than buying a MG. But I can afford it and the focus was on flying when a tow wasn't available and increasing my overall soaring enjoyment. The biggest
or "saving your ass", unless the latter is qualified to "saving your ass from a tedious retrieve". In a real contest (not OLC!) a motorglider is at a distinct disadvantage, carrying ballast that cannot be dumped.JJThis is the very thing that Old Bob (in his regrettable ignorance) unknowingly complains about. It no doubt adds to OLC scores, or rather, Retrieve Anxiety detracts from OLC scores. It has nothing to do with safety
non ballasted glider in that scenario, go back to the basics of sailplane flight and even you may figure it out. Old Bob, The PuristFitch, are you ok??? Carrying water, is pretty much standard procedure in contest, and you certainly want to spend more time running than you do thermaling. Even a motorglider or sustainer has a cruise advantage over a
conditions they are most definitely not. Now we can even that out by requiring that the SG finish the contest with 200 lbs of ballast still aboard, to make it fair, if you'd prefer.Bob, you do realize that a SG has a wider range of wing loading available than a motorglider? Or maybe that is more ignorance showing. In strong conditions, between water and/or engine they are the same, in weak
glider and it felt like a leaf in the wind compared to with the engine. The issue is the wing loading was SO low that I couldn't get any kind of speed without sinking to 20:1, in a 45:1 glider.Fitch, it's not what you know, it's what you don't know! I'll take that water on any good day, why wouldn't you??? Weight works to your advantage. Old Bob, The Purist"Oh look!!! Another wing loading guru!!!!" That's what you said when I explained my slow cruise speed. Anything faster than 75kts and I was practically diving! So you DO acknowledge what I was perceiving? No engine in the
ballast to the aircraft, should you need to dump the water, thus leaving you outside of the safe (and legal) aft CG limits. So the pylon motor glider does have a CG advantage that helps offset it's weight by being further aft CG. In the case of the DG500,One thing you didn't note is the CG advantage of an engine. The CG of a glider with an engine as opposed to wing ballast is obvious. Wing ballast can be accounted for using tail ballast, HOWEVER, you cannot add too much tail
OBTB (baby) won't tow my collosal beast, so I'm stuck self launching.Now that the engine is back in: you can REALLY feel the disadvantage. With two pilots and the engine it's even more so. If I had my druthers, though, I'd have that ridiculous Solo engine removed and never put it back in. But
realize a safety concern is another. I set a limit as to the max weight that MY tow plane would tow and that was the all up weight of the JS3's fully loaded with H2O and I even went a bit over that to tow you with your child. If I was your wife I wouldThere is more than one reason that I refused to tow you, it was a safety concern based on prior experiences with towing your Lead Sled. Having 14K volts of electricity staring me in the face is a big concern, your inability to
Your only explanation for getting a tow was that you did not want to put time on your new engine, so why did you buy a self launch motorglider. I think that the best thing for you to do would be just move on. Please let me know and I will refund you yourI have done thousands of tows and may I ask how many have you done? So please let me be the judge of what I consider safe, so, someday when you get more sailplane experience you will become more cognizant of the safety issues.
than the Grob, but that's not in 100 OLC logs and "total horse****" right?OBTP stands for another thing to me. Hahahaha all I can say is you sure know how to dish the fun out but you certainly don't know how to take it. Old Bob The Moving Goalposts - it's funny that at the end of the runway I'm higher
give you that. It's heavy. Anything else? The very first takeoff wasn't pretty for margins. Yes. That I acknowledge. It was the first takeoff. Every subsequent has not been like that since. I was so focused on keeping my eyes on you that YES I didn't seeHave a good day. I'm not quitting. The club can take my money, and I'll wait you out. When you can cite a safety concern I'll hear it. But literally to this day you've not said an actual concern other than "it's too heavy". I'll
on the ground. Your opinion of safety brings nothing to the table. I'll leave the "old days" that you so proudly cite off the internet. 12,000 hours and 30 years of flying say otherwise to your pitiful judgement. Yes, the engine was started before IBut I'm unsafe, while you buzz aircraft, pilots and guests of the club taking rides well within 500' while most certainly not landing. Don't ever come to me regarding safety while you perform low passes less than 50' from people
of towing would certainly have more credibility if you were capable of towing and judge someone like yourself. Old Bob, The PuristYour last takeoff was not much better than your first, keep trying you may get the hang of it. There are only two people that I have ever refused to tow, you being one of them, that should tell you something. Maybe your assessment
loading no longer plays any role in aviation.Well the data doesn't lie, Bob. Why are YOU the only one who has an issue towing me or my glider with the "might" Pawnee? Suddenly it's a 180hp guerilla when I show up lol suddenly when we want to talk takeoff performance: wing
engine, then why did you buy a motorglider? You seem to pull out the motor on most occasions to get you back home, why not just take off with your own power as the POS was designed to do? It's Gorilla, not guerilla as you made reference to. Maybe if youI do not own the tow plane anymore, our club owns the towplane, maybe you should ask the club for a tow. Why would you even want a tow if you are a self launch. Your explanation to me was that you just did not want to put time on your
said there was absolutely nothing abnormal. He said he'd tow me again - I informed him of your choice words with me, and that he could suffer the same treatment. I strongly urged him not to cross you by offering to tow me again. His words? "A Super CubAh! There we go. Bob, I wasn't trying to publicly pressure you into towing me. I also wasn't and am not asking you for a tow. I'm actually not interested in you towing me and especially my children. Notice the last tow: the tow pilot
after that first leg. The second was on the 2901 triangle - and I couldn't relieve myself so I held over an airport until I could go. I came up 30km short, and successfully threaded the needle. Wow so amazing (insert sarcasm). One more thermal and theMaybe for the 104th glider flight I'll do the diamond goal again doing your "holy grail" around the lake again. That was frankly an easy trip. Why do you make it to be such a big deal? It was fun.
Oh, I've only motored out of a landout three times. One on a day when you couldn't have flown in a pure sailplane - because no one was there even if I could've gotten a tow. 20kts and you guys pack up and leave. I had a nice flight
look up to you as a soaring pilot. I enjoyed the chats. The moment I arrived with my glider you began down this road that we are on.So technically I've only used the engine to "motor home" once.
Bob, I'm not here to fight. I don't know what it is with you and me and where we got our hairs crossed, but I sure wish you'd bury the hatchet. I don't frankly care what you think of me anymore. And that's been pretty freeing. I used to
have a beer with you than get yelled at over nothing.That bottle of rum was a peace offering with no strings attached. I'll do it again. I expect zero in return. Just stop it with the "All My Children" converted to "All My Pilots" and "As the Propeller Turns" - it's nauseating. I'd rather
don't care - really. I'm only here to fire you up lol I won't stay long.YOU are why I bought a motorglider. YOU have run off a lot of people and brag about it. YOU are an example of why this sport is not doing well. Have fun, make fun of my glider. I don't care man. Just bury the hatchet and drop it. I just
working on that thing. You have literally no idea. Ask Victor how often I am the one to close the big hangar up. Then, I'm usually there until 1-3am working on it by myself. All within the confines of the FARs I might add.The Solo got me as far as I wanted to go. Then it broke again. I'm not looking to save the hours. I'm trying to reduce the maintenance. I'm surprised it lasted that long before having another issue. You don't see how often I'm out there
guy who has billions of hours in sailplanes, but won't "say" they read the manual. You didn't get that? I was trying to tell you to tell him to SAY he read it. Get it? Man. And you were so angry with me after that lol I can't win with you. I'd haveGorilla, Guerilla, whatever. Don't act like I didn't ever offer to help. That was me that helped you with the strut. I didn't expect anything in return - nor did I think anything of it. You've called me to help out 1x time to sign off a
failure, was happy to get an aerotow. We were off in 200' and at 300' at the end of the runway. What's unsafe? Me? How so? Give me an actual data point or action that was unsafe. Just yelling that it's heavy doesn't mean much to me because I've neverYou *never* said I couldn't be towed or that it wasn't allowed. So when I rejoined the club - I asked for a tow from another tow pilot and he gleefully said absolutely. It wasn't an issue, and my son, who's still scarred from the engine
your money. Or your tow.Again I haven't asked you to tow me since December when you suggested I self launch from now on. But you never said I couldn't be towed. To be clear - I appreciate it if you'd never speak to me like you did in March again. I don't want
you towed me. Instead of yelling at me and zero instruction on what I did wrong (or that my glider is heavy), they told me I did a great job. Really weird. I don't mind your other thread... Maybe I'll jump in later. I hope you have a great day Bob.Also, I'll let anyone but you be the judge of my safety. I've been to many glider clubs across the country now, and not a one had anything bad to say.... Weird. Every time I ask them to debrief how I can be better, same as I did when
you know, there would never even be a glider operation at X52 if it weren't for me, I started the club, funded the club, bought three Pawnee's for the club, bought sailplanes for rebuilding, worked out a LOA for increased safety within Class D with theHey Slapdick, which is your nickname around the club, you should have been some type of fictional writer. Looking at situations through rose colored glasses creates false impressions, you seem to have a answer for everything. Just to let
Thomas, try something else, you have no idea as to what you are talking about. OBTPNow about running people off, the club should have never let you return after you requested your money back, which the club refunded. Old Bob, The PuristYou said "you have ADS-B" I took it for what you said, that it didn't matter.
Bob - we are all supremely grateful for what you've done.
Hey Bobby, it was YOU that said the agreement was a "handshake" one. Are you getting confused (that's DSM-5 material, bud)?DSM-5, we do have a LOA, if you had the capacity to read the thread you would have been cognizant of the agreement. OBTPHandshake? There is NO SUCH THING! You either have a Letter Of Agreement (LOA) or you DON'T.I have an answer because I speak nothing but the truth. Not altered reality. Again, I hope you have a great day and get to go soaring soon.ADS-B had nothing to do with you violating our handshake agreement with the FAA! OBTP
Hey Bobby, here are your EXACT WORDS:Tom 2GNo Tom, not confused, yet trying to enlighten your ability to understand what an agreement is both written and verbal. I will give you a few points for a good question, but a verbal agreement is a parol contract. OBTP
"ADS-B had nothing to do with you violating our handshake agreement"
There is NO SUCH THING as a "handshake agreement" with the FAA. You are CLEARLY confused, hence checking the DSM-5 box.
Tom 2G
On Monday, May 1, 2023 at 8:57:23 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:hassle is much less likely to occur. This came as a bit of a surprise to me. I thought my land out tolerance was pretty high. I have had a number of land outs in my first 3 glider seasons (and 100's in my 20+yrs of downwind hang gliding XC) and didn't
On Monday, May 1, 2023 at 1:32:29 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Monday, May 1, 2023 at 11:52:11 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
On Monday, May 1, 2023 at 4:09:51 AM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Sunday, April 30, 2023 at 9:29:40 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 5:31:53 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 6:34:56 PM UTC-4, Jason Leonard wrote:
On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 6:57:08 AM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 1:15:34 AM UTC-4, Jason Leonard wrote:
On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 8:43:08 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 8:41:31 AM UTC-4, Jason Leonard wrote:
On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 6:47:45 AM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Sunday, April 23, 2023 at 11:49:51 PM UTC-4, Jason Leonard wrote:
On Sunday, April 23, 2023 at 5:46:25 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Sunday, April 23, 2023 at 2:50:09 PM UTC-4, Jason Leonard wrote:
On Sunday, April 23, 2023 at 6:34:06 AM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 6:28:48 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 12:15:24 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 11:33:18 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 3:00:56 PM UTC-7, John Johnson wrote:
On Tuesday, April 18, 2023 at 10:11:52 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
What you were suffering from is Retrieve Anxiety. This is where you turn back because you fear the inconvenience of a retrieve...
Yes - I agree.
I initially thought that self-launch capability would be 90+% of the MG benefit but came to realize that I'm now flying XC significantly more relaxed. The whole XC experience is more enjoyable knowing a retrieve
concern for me: I might learn the hassle factors of owning a complex MG would overcome the advantages and I would be saddled with an expensive glider I didn't enjoy that much. After 7mos, that fear is behind me and I'm truly enjoying this new environment.It's certainly true that a lot of retrieves are much cheaper than buying a MG. But I can afford it and the focus was on flying when a tow wasn't available and increasing my overall soaring enjoyment. The biggest
or "saving your ass", unless the latter is qualified to "saving your ass from a tedious retrieve". In a real contest (not OLC!) a motorglider is at a distinct disadvantage, carrying ballast that cannot be dumped.JJThis is the very thing that Old Bob (in his regrettable ignorance) unknowingly complains about. It no doubt adds to OLC scores, or rather, Retrieve Anxiety detracts from OLC scores. It has nothing to do with safety
a non ballasted glider in that scenario, go back to the basics of sailplane flight and even you may figure it out. Old Bob, The PuristFitch, are you ok??? Carrying water, is pretty much standard procedure in contest, and you certainly want to spend more time running than you do thermaling. Even a motorglider or sustainer has a cruise advantage over
conditions they are most definitely not. Now we can even that out by requiring that the SG finish the contest with 200 lbs of ballast still aboard, to make it fair, if you'd prefer.Bob, you do realize that a SG has a wider range of wing loading available than a motorglider? Or maybe that is more ignorance showing. In strong conditions, between water and/or engine they are the same, in weak
glider and it felt like a leaf in the wind compared to with the engine. The issue is the wing loading was SO low that I couldn't get any kind of speed without sinking to 20:1, in a 45:1 glider.Fitch, it's not what you know, it's what you don't know! I'll take that water on any good day, why wouldn't you??? Weight works to your advantage. Old Bob, The Purist"Oh look!!! Another wing loading guru!!!!" That's what you said when I explained my slow cruise speed. Anything faster than 75kts and I was practically diving! So you DO acknowledge what I was perceiving? No engine in the
tail ballast to the aircraft, should you need to dump the water, thus leaving you outside of the safe (and legal) aft CG limits. So the pylon motor glider does have a CG advantage that helps offset it's weight by being further aft CG. In the case of theOne thing you didn't note is the CG advantage of an engine. The CG of a glider with an engine as opposed to wing ballast is obvious. Wing ballast can be accounted for using tail ballast, HOWEVER, you cannot add too much
But OBTB (baby) won't tow my collosal beast, so I'm stuck self launching.Now that the engine is back in: you can REALLY feel the disadvantage. With two pilots and the engine it's even more so. If I had my druthers, though, I'd have that ridiculous Solo engine removed and never put it back in.
to realize a safety concern is another. I set a limit as to the max weight that MY tow plane would tow and that was the all up weight of the JS3's fully loaded with H2O and I even went a bit over that to tow you with your child. If I was your wife IThere is more than one reason that I refused to tow you, it was a safety concern based on prior experiences with towing your Lead Sled. Having 14K volts of electricity staring me in the face is a big concern, your inability
issues. Your only explanation for getting a tow was that you did not want to put time on your new engine, so why did you buy a self launch motorglider. I think that the best thing for you to do would be just move on. Please let me know and I will refundI have done thousands of tows and may I ask how many have you done? So please let me be the judge of what I consider safe, so, someday when you get more sailplane experience you will become more cognizant of the safety
higher than the Grob, but that's not in 100 OLC logs and "total horse****" right?OBTP stands for another thing to me. Hahahaha all I can say is you sure know how to dish the fun out but you certainly don't know how to take it. Old Bob The Moving Goalposts - it's funny that at the end of the runway I'm
ll give you that. It's heavy. Anything else? The very first takeoff wasn't pretty for margins. Yes. That I acknowledge. It was the first takeoff. Every subsequent has not been like that since. I was so focused on keeping my eyes on you that YES I didn'tHave a good day. I'm not quitting. The club can take my money, and I'll wait you out. When you can cite a safety concern I'll hear it. But literally to this day you've not said an actual concern other than "it's too heavy". I'
people on the ground. Your opinion of safety brings nothing to the table. I'll leave the "old days" that you so proudly cite off the internet. 12,000 hours and 30 years of flying say otherwise to your pitiful judgement. Yes, the engine was started beforeBut I'm unsafe, while you buzz aircraft, pilots and guests of the club taking rides well within 500' while most certainly not landing. Don't ever come to me regarding safety while you perform low passes less than 50' from
assessment of towing would certainly have more credibility if you were capable of towing and judge someone like yourself. Old Bob, The PuristYour last takeoff was not much better than your first, keep trying you may get the hang of it. There are only two people that I have ever refused to tow, you being one of them, that should tell you something. Maybe your
loading no longer plays any role in aviation.Well the data doesn't lie, Bob. Why are YOU the only one who has an issue towing me or my glider with the "might" Pawnee? Suddenly it's a 180hp guerilla when I show up lol suddenly when we want to talk takeoff performance: wing
your engine, then why did you buy a motorglider? You seem to pull out the motor on most occasions to get you back home, why not just take off with your own power as the POS was designed to do? It's Gorilla, not guerilla as you made reference to. Maybe ifI do not own the tow plane anymore, our club owns the towplane, maybe you should ask the club for a tow. Why would you even want a tow if you are a self launch. Your explanation to me was that you just did not want to put time on
said there was absolutely nothing abnormal. He said he'd tow me again - I informed him of your choice words with me, and that he could suffer the same treatment. I strongly urged him not to cross you by offering to tow me again. His words? "A Super CubAh! There we go. Bob, I wasn't trying to publicly pressure you into towing me. I also wasn't and am not asking you for a tow. I'm actually not interested in you towing me and especially my children. Notice the last tow: the tow pilot
after that first leg. The second was on the 2901 triangle - and I couldn't relieve myself so I held over an airport until I could go. I came up 30km short, and successfully threaded the needle. Wow so amazing (insert sarcasm). One more thermal and theMaybe for the 104th glider flight I'll do the diamond goal again doing your "holy grail" around the lake again. That was frankly an easy trip. Why do you make it to be such a big deal? It was fun.
Oh, I've only motored out of a landout three times. One on a day when you couldn't have flown in a pure sailplane - because no one was there even if I could've gotten a tow. 20kts and you guys pack up and leave. I had a nice flight
to look up to you as a soaring pilot. I enjoyed the chats. The moment I arrived with my glider you began down this road that we are on.So technically I've only used the engine to "motor home" once.
Bob, I'm not here to fight. I don't know what it is with you and me and where we got our hairs crossed, but I sure wish you'd bury the hatchet. I don't frankly care what you think of me anymore. And that's been pretty freeing. I used
rather have a beer with you than get yelled at over nothing.That bottle of rum was a peace offering with no strings attached. I'll do it again. I expect zero in return. Just stop it with the "All My Children" converted to "All My Pilots" and "As the Propeller Turns" - it's nauseating. I'd
just don't care - really. I'm only here to fire you up lol I won't stay long.YOU are why I bought a motorglider. YOU have run off a lot of people and brag about it. YOU are an example of why this sport is not doing well. Have fun, make fun of my glider. I don't care man. Just bury the hatchet and drop it. I
there working on that thing. You have literally no idea. Ask Victor how often I am the one to close the big hangar up. Then, I'm usually there until 1-3am working on it by myself. All within the confines of the FARs I might add.The Solo got me as far as I wanted to go. Then it broke again. I'm not looking to save the hours. I'm trying to reduce the maintenance. I'm surprised it lasted that long before having another issue. You don't see how often I'm out
a guy who has billions of hours in sailplanes, but won't "say" they read the manual. You didn't get that? I was trying to tell you to tell him to SAY he read it. Get it? Man. And you were so angry with me after that lol I can't win with you. I'd haveGorilla, Guerilla, whatever. Don't act like I didn't ever offer to help. That was me that helped you with the strut. I didn't expect anything in return - nor did I think anything of it. You've called me to help out 1x time to sign off
engine failure, was happy to get an aerotow. We were off in 200' and at 300' at the end of the runway. What's unsafe? Me? How so? Give me an actual data point or action that was unsafe. Just yelling that it's heavy doesn't mean much to me because I'veYou *never* said I couldn't be towed or that it wasn't allowed. So when I rejoined the club - I asked for a tow from another tow pilot and he gleefully said absolutely. It wasn't an issue, and my son, who's still scarred from the
want your money. Or your tow.Again I haven't asked you to tow me since December when you suggested I self launch from now on. But you never said I couldn't be towed. To be clear - I appreciate it if you'd never speak to me like you did in March again. I don't
you towed me. Instead of yelling at me and zero instruction on what I did wrong (or that my glider is heavy), they told me I did a great job. Really weird. I don't mind your other thread... Maybe I'll jump in later. I hope you have a great day Bob.Also, I'll let anyone but you be the judge of my safety. I've been to many glider clubs across the country now, and not a one had anything bad to say.... Weird. Every time I ask them to debrief how I can be better, same as I did when
let you know, there would never even be a glider operation at X52 if it weren't for me, I started the club, funded the club, bought three Pawnee's for the club, bought sailplanes for rebuilding, worked out a LOA for increased safety within Class D withHey Slapdick, which is your nickname around the club, you should have been some type of fictional writer. Looking at situations through rose colored glasses creates false impressions, you seem to have a answer for everything. Just to
Now about running people off, the club should have never let you return after you requested your money back, which the club refunded. Old Bob, The PuristYou said "you have ADS-B" I took it for what you said, that it didn't matter.
Bob - we are all supremely grateful for what you've done.
Hey Bobby, it was YOU that said the agreement was a "handshake" one. Are you getting confused (that's DSM-5 material, bud)?DSM-5, we do have a LOA, if you had the capacity to read the thread you would have been cognizant of the agreement. OBTPHandshake? There is NO SUCH THING! You either have a Letter Of Agreement (LOA) or you DON'T.I have an answer because I speak nothing but the truth. Not altered reality. Again, I hope you have a great day and get to go soaring soon.ADS-B had nothing to do with you violating our handshake agreement with the FAA! OBTP
Hey Bobby, here are your EXACT WORDS:Tom 2GNo Tom, not confused, yet trying to enlighten your ability to understand what an agreement is both written and verbal. I will give you a few points for a good question, but a verbal agreement is a parol contract. OBTP
"ADS-B had nothing to do with you violating our handshake agreement"
There is NO SUCH THING as a "handshake agreement" with the FAA. You are CLEARLY confused, hence checking the DSM-5 box.
Tom 2GThomas, try something else, you have no idea as to what you are talking about. OBTP
On Tuesday, May 2, 2023 at 8:25:57 AM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:retrieve hassle is much less likely to occur. This came as a bit of a surprise to me. I thought my land out tolerance was pretty high. I have had a number of land outs in my first 3 glider seasons (and 100's in my 20+yrs of downwind hang gliding XC) and
On Monday, May 1, 2023 at 8:57:23 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
On Monday, May 1, 2023 at 1:32:29 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Monday, May 1, 2023 at 11:52:11 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
On Monday, May 1, 2023 at 4:09:51 AM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Sunday, April 30, 2023 at 9:29:40 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 5:31:53 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 6:34:56 PM UTC-4, Jason Leonard wrote:
On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 6:57:08 AM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 1:15:34 AM UTC-4, Jason Leonard wrote:
On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 8:43:08 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 8:41:31 AM UTC-4, Jason Leonard wrote:
On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 6:47:45 AM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Sunday, April 23, 2023 at 11:49:51 PM UTC-4, Jason Leonard wrote:
On Sunday, April 23, 2023 at 5:46:25 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Sunday, April 23, 2023 at 2:50:09 PM UTC-4, Jason Leonard wrote:
On Sunday, April 23, 2023 at 6:34:06 AM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 6:28:48 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 12:15:24 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 11:33:18 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 3:00:56 PM UTC-7, John Johnson wrote:
On Tuesday, April 18, 2023 at 10:11:52 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
What you were suffering from is Retrieve Anxiety. This is where you turn back because you fear the inconvenience of a retrieve...
Yes - I agree.
I initially thought that self-launch capability would be 90+% of the MG benefit but came to realize that I'm now flying XC significantly more relaxed. The whole XC experience is more enjoyable knowing a
biggest concern for me: I might learn the hassle factors of owning a complex MG would overcome the advantages and I would be saddled with an expensive glider I didn't enjoy that much. After 7mos, that fear is behind me and I'm truly enjoying this newIt's certainly true that a lot of retrieves are much cheaper than buying a MG. But I can afford it and the focus was on flying when a tow wasn't available and increasing my overall soaring enjoyment. The
safety or "saving your ass", unless the latter is qualified to "saving your ass from a tedious retrieve". In a real contest (not OLC!) a motorglider is at a distinct disadvantage, carrying ballast that cannot be dumped.JJThis is the very thing that Old Bob (in his regrettable ignorance) unknowingly complains about. It no doubt adds to OLC scores, or rather, Retrieve Anxiety detracts from OLC scores. It has nothing to do with
over a non ballasted glider in that scenario, go back to the basics of sailplane flight and even you may figure it out. Old Bob, The PuristFitch, are you ok??? Carrying water, is pretty much standard procedure in contest, and you certainly want to spend more time running than you do thermaling. Even a motorglider or sustainer has a cruise advantage
conditions they are most definitely not. Now we can even that out by requiring that the SG finish the contest with 200 lbs of ballast still aboard, to make it fair, if you'd prefer.Bob, you do realize that a SG has a wider range of wing loading available than a motorglider? Or maybe that is more ignorance showing. In strong conditions, between water and/or engine they are the same, in weak
the glider and it felt like a leaf in the wind compared to with the engine. The issue is the wing loading was SO low that I couldn't get any kind of speed without sinking to 20:1, in a 45:1 glider.Fitch, it's not what you know, it's what you don't know! I'll take that water on any good day, why wouldn't you??? Weight works to your advantage. Old Bob, The Purist"Oh look!!! Another wing loading guru!!!!" That's what you said when I explained my slow cruise speed. Anything faster than 75kts and I was practically diving! So you DO acknowledge what I was perceiving? No engine in
tail ballast to the aircraft, should you need to dump the water, thus leaving you outside of the safe (and legal) aft CG limits. So the pylon motor glider does have a CG advantage that helps offset it's weight by being further aft CG. In the case of theOne thing you didn't note is the CG advantage of an engine. The CG of a glider with an engine as opposed to wing ballast is obvious. Wing ballast can be accounted for using tail ballast, HOWEVER, you cannot add too much
But OBTB (baby) won't tow my collosal beast, so I'm stuck self launching.Now that the engine is back in: you can REALLY feel the disadvantage. With two pilots and the engine it's even more so. If I had my druthers, though, I'd have that ridiculous Solo engine removed and never put it back in.
inability to realize a safety concern is another. I set a limit as to the max weight that MY tow plane would tow and that was the all up weight of the JS3's fully loaded with H2O and I even went a bit over that to tow you with your child. If I was yourThere is more than one reason that I refused to tow you, it was a safety concern based on prior experiences with towing your Lead Sled. Having 14K volts of electricity staring me in the face is a big concern, your
issues. Your only explanation for getting a tow was that you did not want to put time on your new engine, so why did you buy a self launch motorglider. I think that the best thing for you to do would be just move on. Please let me know and I will refundI have done thousands of tows and may I ask how many have you done? So please let me be the judge of what I consider safe, so, someday when you get more sailplane experience you will become more cognizant of the safety
higher than the Grob, but that's not in 100 OLC logs and "total horse****" right?OBTP stands for another thing to me. Hahahaha all I can say is you sure know how to dish the fun out but you certainly don't know how to take it. Old Bob The Moving Goalposts - it's funny that at the end of the runway I'm
I'll give you that. It's heavy. Anything else? The very first takeoff wasn't pretty for margins. Yes. That I acknowledge. It was the first takeoff. Every subsequent has not been like that since. I was so focused on keeping my eyes on you that YES I didn'Have a good day. I'm not quitting. The club can take my money, and I'll wait you out. When you can cite a safety concern I'll hear it. But literally to this day you've not said an actual concern other than "it's too heavy".
people on the ground. Your opinion of safety brings nothing to the table. I'll leave the "old days" that you so proudly cite off the internet. 12,000 hours and 30 years of flying say otherwise to your pitiful judgement. Yes, the engine was started beforeBut I'm unsafe, while you buzz aircraft, pilots and guests of the club taking rides well within 500' while most certainly not landing. Don't ever come to me regarding safety while you perform low passes less than 50' from
assessment of towing would certainly have more credibility if you were capable of towing and judge someone like yourself. Old Bob, The PuristYour last takeoff was not much better than your first, keep trying you may get the hang of it. There are only two people that I have ever refused to tow, you being one of them, that should tell you something. Maybe your
loading no longer plays any role in aviation.Well the data doesn't lie, Bob. Why are YOU the only one who has an issue towing me or my glider with the "might" Pawnee? Suddenly it's a 180hp guerilla when I show up lol suddenly when we want to talk takeoff performance: wing
your engine, then why did you buy a motorglider? You seem to pull out the motor on most occasions to get you back home, why not just take off with your own power as the POS was designed to do? It's Gorilla, not guerilla as you made reference to. Maybe ifI do not own the tow plane anymore, our club owns the towplane, maybe you should ask the club for a tow. Why would you even want a tow if you are a self launch. Your explanation to me was that you just did not want to put time on
pilot said there was absolutely nothing abnormal. He said he'd tow me again - I informed him of your choice words with me, and that he could suffer the same treatment. I strongly urged him not to cross you by offering to tow me again. His words? "A SuperAh! There we go. Bob, I wasn't trying to publicly pressure you into towing me. I also wasn't and am not asking you for a tow. I'm actually not interested in you towing me and especially my children. Notice the last tow: the tow
after that first leg. The second was on the 2901 triangle - and I couldn't relieve myself so I held over an airport until I could go. I came up 30km short, and successfully threaded the needle. Wow so amazing (insert sarcasm). One more thermal and theMaybe for the 104th glider flight I'll do the diamond goal again doing your "holy grail" around the lake again. That was frankly an easy trip. Why do you make it to be such a big deal? It was fun.
Oh, I've only motored out of a landout three times. One on a day when you couldn't have flown in a pure sailplane - because no one was there even if I could've gotten a tow. 20kts and you guys pack up and leave. I had a nice flight
used to look up to you as a soaring pilot. I enjoyed the chats. The moment I arrived with my glider you began down this road that we are on.So technically I've only used the engine to "motor home" once.
Bob, I'm not here to fight. I don't know what it is with you and me and where we got our hairs crossed, but I sure wish you'd bury the hatchet. I don't frankly care what you think of me anymore. And that's been pretty freeing. I
rather have a beer with you than get yelled at over nothing.That bottle of rum was a peace offering with no strings attached. I'll do it again. I expect zero in return. Just stop it with the "All My Children" converted to "All My Pilots" and "As the Propeller Turns" - it's nauseating. I'd
just don't care - really. I'm only here to fire you up lol I won't stay long.YOU are why I bought a motorglider. YOU have run off a lot of people and brag about it. YOU are an example of why this sport is not doing well. Have fun, make fun of my glider. I don't care man. Just bury the hatchet and drop it. I
there working on that thing. You have literally no idea. Ask Victor how often I am the one to close the big hangar up. Then, I'm usually there until 1-3am working on it by myself. All within the confines of the FARs I might add.The Solo got me as far as I wanted to go. Then it broke again. I'm not looking to save the hours. I'm trying to reduce the maintenance. I'm surprised it lasted that long before having another issue. You don't see how often I'm out
off a guy who has billions of hours in sailplanes, but won't "say" they read the manual. You didn't get that? I was trying to tell you to tell him to SAY he read it. Get it? Man. And you were so angry with me after that lol I can't win with you. I'd haveGorilla, Guerilla, whatever. Don't act like I didn't ever offer to help. That was me that helped you with the strut. I didn't expect anything in return - nor did I think anything of it. You've called me to help out 1x time to sign
engine failure, was happy to get an aerotow. We were off in 200' and at 300' at the end of the runway. What's unsafe? Me? How so? Give me an actual data point or action that was unsafe. Just yelling that it's heavy doesn't mean much to me because I'veYou *never* said I couldn't be towed or that it wasn't allowed. So when I rejoined the club - I asked for a tow from another tow pilot and he gleefully said absolutely. It wasn't an issue, and my son, who's still scarred from the
want your money. Or your tow.Again I haven't asked you to tow me since December when you suggested I self launch from now on. But you never said I couldn't be towed. To be clear - I appreciate it if you'd never speak to me like you did in March again. I don't
when you towed me. Instead of yelling at me and zero instruction on what I did wrong (or that my glider is heavy), they told me I did a great job. Really weird. I don't mind your other thread... Maybe I'll jump in later. I hope you have a great day Bob.Also, I'll let anyone but you be the judge of my safety. I've been to many glider clubs across the country now, and not a one had anything bad to say.... Weird. Every time I ask them to debrief how I can be better, same as I did
let you know, there would never even be a glider operation at X52 if it weren't for me, I started the club, funded the club, bought three Pawnee's for the club, bought sailplanes for rebuilding, worked out a LOA for increased safety within Class D withHey Slapdick, which is your nickname around the club, you should have been some type of fictional writer. Looking at situations through rose colored glasses creates false impressions, you seem to have a answer for everything. Just to
can't have a verbal agreement that only one of them is aware of. That is why when you get verbal advice from an FAA person on the phone it is not legally binding - you have to get a written confirmation from Omaha.Now about running people off, the club should have never let you return after you requested your money back, which the club refunded. Old Bob, The PuristYou said "you have ADS-B" I took it for what you said, that it didn't matter.
Bob - we are all supremely grateful for what you've done.
Hey Bobby, it was YOU that said the agreement was a "handshake" one. Are you getting confused (that's DSM-5 material, bud)?DSM-5, we do have a LOA, if you had the capacity to read the thread you would have been cognizant of the agreement. OBTPHandshake? There is NO SUCH THING! You either have a Letter Of Agreement (LOA) or you DON'T.I have an answer because I speak nothing but the truth. Not altered reality. Again, I hope you have a great day and get to go soaring soon.ADS-B had nothing to do with you violating our handshake agreement with the FAA! OBTP
Hey Bobby, here are your EXACT WORDS:Tom 2GNo Tom, not confused, yet trying to enlighten your ability to understand what an agreement is both written and verbal. I will give you a few points for a good question, but a verbal agreement is a parol contract. OBTP
"ADS-B had nothing to do with you violating our handshake agreement" There is NO SUCH THING as a "handshake agreement" with the FAA. You are CLEARLY confused, hence checking the DSM-5 box.
Having negotiated LOAs with the FAA, yes I do. It is YOU, Bobby, that doesn't know what he is talking about. And, when you think a millisecond about it (yes, I know you don't think much), it makes sense: the FAA is made up of thousands of people, youTom 2GThomas, try something else, you have no idea as to what you are talking about. OBTP
Tom 2GTerrible Tommy, you are clueless!!!
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