After a couple of weeks of glider flights in Florida I have come to the conclusion that the Motorglider guys best be paying attention and possibly asking for a refund for that expensive ego ship.
Yep, another day here in Florida and I take a look on OLC and I see that the Purist #2 has been toying around with the fancy ships flying out of Seminole Lake Motorglider Hovel.
Could it be the weather, no because the weather has been the same up that way, so what would one attribute these great flights to? Well, as OBTP would say, " I Told You So"! Yes, it is what it is, and the late Lewis Grizzard would say, "Elvis Is Dead And
The Motorglider Guys Are Not feeling Well". Get a refund, sell short, buy a pure glider and enjoy the sport as it should be enjoyed. There is a new generation coming along and they also are PURIST. Old Bob, The Purist

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Friday, March 31, 2023 at 5:20:36 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:

After a couple of weeks of glider flights in Florida I have come to the conclusion that the Motorglider guys best be paying attention and possibly asking for a refund for that expensive ego ship.
Yep, another day here in Florida and I take a look on OLC and I see that the Purist #2 has been toying around with the fancy ships flying out of Seminole Lake Motorglider Hovel.
Could it be the weather, no because the weather has been the same up that way, so what would one attribute these great flights to? Well, as OBTP would say, " I Told You So"! Yes, it is what it is, and the late Lewis Grizzard would say, "Elvis Is Dead

And The Motorglider Guys Are Not feeling Well". Get a refund, sell short, buy a pure glider and enjoy the sport as it should be enjoyed. There is a new generation coming along and they also are PURIST. Old Bob, The Purist
Still beating the dead horse, eh? But, I hope you are right that a new generation is coming along, regardless of what they choose to fly, and that they include some "motor pilots" (ie, airplane pilots that can tow). In our area, it's not the purity of
the sailplane pilot that's an issue, it's the increasing difficulty of getting towpilots even for weekends, much less mid-week flying. That's what drives pilots to motorgliders, not ego. A "pure" glider without a towplane and pilot isn't a glider, it's
just a lovely work of art.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

There's always auto tow and winch. We in the USA either forget that or
are just plain chicken. For those who advertise "winch launch camps"
why not just change to full time winch? It's a boat load of fun AND
with practice, getting away is a no brainer.

Dan
5J

On 4/1/23 09:28, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On Friday, March 31, 2023 at 5:20:36 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:

After a couple of weeks of glider flights in Florida I have come to the conclusion that the Motorglider guys best be paying attention and possibly asking for a refund for that expensive ego ship.
Yep, another day here in Florida and I take a look on OLC and I see that the Purist #2 has been toying around with the fancy ships flying out of Seminole Lake Motorglider Hovel.
Could it be the weather, no because the weather has been the same up that way, so what would one attribute these great flights to? Well, as OBTP would say, " I Told You So"! Yes, it is what it is, and the late Lewis Grizzard would say, "Elvis Is Dead

And The Motorglider Guys Are Not feeling Well". Get a refund, sell short, buy a pure glider and enjoy the sport as it should be enjoyed. There is a new generation coming along and they also are PURIST. Old Bob, The Purist

Still beating the dead horse, eh? But, I hope you are right that a new generation is coming along, regardless of what they choose to fly, and that they include some "motor pilots" (ie, airplane pilots that can tow). In our area, it's not the purity of

the sailplane pilot that's an issue, it's the increasing difficulty of getting towpilots even for weekends, much less mid-week flying. That's what drives pilots to motorgliders, not ego. A "pure" glider without a towplane and pilot isn't a glider, it's
just a lovely work of art.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Sat, 1 Apr 2023 10:49:46 -0600, Dan Marotta wrote:

There's always auto tow and winch. We in the USA either forget that or
are just plain chicken. For those who advertise "winch launch camps"
why not just change to full time winch? It's a boat load of fun AND
with practice, getting away is a no brainer.

Winching is my usual launch method because I enjoy it more than a tow and
it costs rather less. On a reasonable day I agree that getting away from 1400ft, a typical launch height on our winches unless you pole bend, isn't hard.

Occasionally its amazing, like the time I abandoned a launch at 1000ft due
to a sudden and unexpected overspeed. I realised it might be a thermal, so sucked up the u/c and cruised down the centre line of the runway to see if
I could find anything: hit it halfway down at 900 ft. It was small
diameter and 4 kts up, quickly rising to +5, so I flew it in a flat,
skidding turn rather than standing on a wingtip because, rightly ot
wrongly, I thought that would give a better climb rate. I passed over the launch point at 2000ft with the climb rate rising; at 3000 ft the averager showed +15kts. Unfortunately, I had to abandon the thermal at 4500ft: straghtened out, stuck the nose down and scarpered at 95 kts because
Stanstead airspace starts at 5000ft above our field. However, I've always wondered what that thermal topped out at.

More seriously, its not likely that either the CAA or the airfield owners
would allow you to winch from a general aviation field: I know that there
were a couple over here that mixed auto towing with general aviation as
late as 2000, but neither do it now. The obvious exception is Lasham, but that's different: the gliding club owns the field and AFAIK non-gliding
traffic there is strictly by prior arrangement,

Winching does work well in the USA on private fields, e.g. Eagle Field, however, I'd guess the main issue preventing it on a public field is down
to visiting GA pilots and their almost total ignorance of the hazards to
them from a winching operation.

I think the problem is this: locally based pilots would know and conform
to the rules, just as tow pilots do at a mixed tow and winch gliding site,
but visiting GA pilots wouldn't know the local rules and would be a danger
to everybody, including themselves. Also, there's a good chance that both helicopter and GA pilots have no idea of just how high winched gliders can
get in good winching conditions.

Our field is shown on the sectionals with a tag saying we winch to 3000ft,
and I've hit 2700ft AGL in a strong breeze on a day with a strong wind
speed gradient.

Yet, we regularly have helicopters and GA aircraft overflying us at no
more than 1500ft: we report them if we can read their registration, but
that doesn't seem to help much: the only thing that has is that, now that
GA and helicopters are starting to carry moving maps, the low overflights
have become less frequent.

You think such stupid things don't happen?

* Does anybody remember the Youtube video shot from a winched hang glider
that showed an ultralight, fat, dumb and happy, bimbling straight
downwind along the centre line of the HG runway, 50 ft or so below the
HG and only missing the cable by 25ft or so.

* My club's field is around a mile from a GA field and more than once
we've had to stop launching during a NOTAMed competition because some
thicko GA pilot joined our circuit and landed. Evidently they:
- hadn't read the NOTAMS (we NOTAM any competitions serious enough to
use a launch grig)
- didn't know that we have three runways in a triangle while the GA's
destination has a single runway
- evidently didn't see the grid of 30 gliders waiting to launch
- didn't notice tugs in circuit or towing gliders


--

Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Saturday, April 1, 2023 at 5:10:19 PM UTC-4, Martin Gregorie wrote:

On Sat, 1 Apr 2023 10:49:46 -0600, Dan Marotta wrote:

There's always auto tow and winch. We in the USA either forget that or
are just plain chicken. For those who advertise "winch launch camps"
why not just change to full time winch? It's a boat load of fun AND
with practice, getting away is a no brainer.

Winching is my usual launch method because I enjoy it more than a tow and
it costs rather less. On a reasonable day I agree that getting away from 1400ft, a typical launch height on our winches unless you pole bend, isn't hard.

Occasionally its amazing, like the time I abandoned a launch at 1000ft due to a sudden and unexpected overspeed. I realised it might be a thermal, so sucked up the u/c and cruised down the centre line of the runway to see if
I could find anything: hit it halfway down at 900 ft. It was small
diameter and 4 kts up, quickly rising to +5, so I flew it in a flat, skidding turn rather than standing on a wingtip because, rightly ot
wrongly, I thought that would give a better climb rate. I passed over the launch point at 2000ft with the climb rate rising; at 3000 ft the averager showed +15kts. Unfortunately, I had to abandon the thermal at 4500ft: straghtened out, stuck the nose down and scarpered at 95 kts because Stanstead airspace starts at 5000ft above our field. However, I've always wondered what that thermal topped out at.

More seriously, its not likely that either the CAA or the airfield owners would allow you to winch from a general aviation field: I know that there were a couple over here that mixed auto towing with general aviation as
late as 2000, but neither do it now. The obvious exception is Lasham, but that's different: the gliding club owns the field and AFAIK non-gliding traffic there is strictly by prior arrangement,

Winching does work well in the USA on private fields, e.g. Eagle Field, however, I'd guess the main issue preventing it on a public field is down
to visiting GA pilots and their almost total ignorance of the hazards to them from a winching operation.

I think the problem is this: locally based pilots would know and conform
to the rules, just as tow pilots do at a mixed tow and winch gliding site, but visiting GA pilots wouldn't know the local rules and would be a danger to everybody, including themselves. Also, there's a good chance that both helicopter and GA pilots have no idea of just how high winched gliders can get in good winching conditions.

Our field is shown on the sectionals with a tag saying we winch to 3000ft, and I've hit 2700ft AGL in a strong breeze on a day with a strong wind
speed gradient.

Yet, we regularly have helicopters and GA aircraft overflying us at no
more than 1500ft: we report them if we can read their registration, but
that doesn't seem to help much: the only thing that has is that, now that
GA and helicopters are starting to carry moving maps, the low overflights have become less frequent.

You think such stupid things don't happen?

* Does anybody remember the Youtube video shot from a winched hang glider that showed an ultralight, fat, dumb and happy, bimbling straight
downwind along the centre line of the HG runway, 50 ft or so below the
HG and only missing the cable by 25ft or so.

* My club's field is around a mile from a GA field and more than once
we've had to stop launching during a NOTAMed competition because some
thicko GA pilot joined our circuit and landed. Evidently they:
- hadn't read the NOTAMS (we NOTAM any competitions serious enough to
use a launch grig)
- didn't know that we have three runways in a triangle while the GA's destination has a single runway
- evidently didn't see the grid of 30 gliders waiting to launch
- didn't notice tugs in circuit or towing gliders

--

Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

I would like to get certified for ground launch (Karl's place or Mifflin is where I would go), but yeah, our place is a private owned GA airport that gets Federal funding. Our club contributes a large amount of income to the airport through hanger rent,
tiedown, gas, etc.
But we seem to be a "nessesary evil".
We are also a place for GA power, State Troopers, helicopters, a hang glider op on field (aerotow), so a mix.
I could NOT even imagine us winching with how things go now.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Sat, 1 Apr 2023 14:37:29 -0700 (PDT), Charlie M. (UH, Pi & 002
owner/pilot) wrote:

I could NOT even imagine us winching with how things go now.

Thanks to confirming that my assumptions also apply on your side of the
pond.

I should have also added that I'd would deservedly have got yelled at for holding up the launch queue if that thermal I described hadn't been a
fizzer: but plan B, if it had been weak, was to leave after a turn or
two, fly an abbreviated circuit and land behind the launch point, which
was a good 300m upwind from the runway threshold and off to one side of
the launch queue. Our main run is grass, 1000m long and 175m wide (3600ft
x 570ft if you prefer). Its a somewhat shortened .WW2 bomber field with
the paving dug up and used to build a local motorway.



--

Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

I've ground launched at several GA airports in the southwest USA. But
most of these airports had little to no traffic whatsoever.

I've ground launched at Kelly Airpark (home of Black Forest Soaring
Society), Taos, NM, Holbrook AZ, Green River, UT, and Grandby, CO.
There are probably others but memory fades.

Dan
5J

On 4/1/23 15:10, Martin Gregorie wrote:

On Sat, 1 Apr 2023 10:49:46 -0600, Dan Marotta wrote:

There's always auto tow and winch. We in the USA either forget that or
are just plain chicken. For those who advertise "winch launch camps"
why not just change to full time winch? It's a boat load of fun AND
with practice, getting away is a no brainer.

Winching is my usual launch method because I enjoy it more than a tow and
it costs rather less. On a reasonable day I agree that getting away from 1400ft, a typical launch height on our winches unless you pole bend, isn't hard.

Occasionally its amazing, like the time I abandoned a launch at 1000ft due
to a sudden and unexpected overspeed. I realised it might be a thermal, so sucked up the u/c and cruised down the centre line of the runway to see if
I could find anything: hit it halfway down at 900 ft. It was small
diameter and 4 kts up, quickly rising to +5, so I flew it in a flat,
skidding turn rather than standing on a wingtip because, rightly ot
wrongly, I thought that would give a better climb rate. I passed over the launch point at 2000ft with the climb rate rising; at 3000 ft the averager showed +15kts. Unfortunately, I had to abandon the thermal at 4500ft: straghtened out, stuck the nose down and scarpered at 95 kts because Stanstead airspace starts at 5000ft above our field. However, I've always wondered what that thermal topped out at.

More seriously, its not likely that either the CAA or the airfield owners would allow you to winch from a general aviation field: I know that there were a couple over here that mixed auto towing with general aviation as
late as 2000, but neither do it now. The obvious exception is Lasham, but that's different: the gliding club owns the field and AFAIK non-gliding traffic there is strictly by prior arrangement,

Winching does work well in the USA on private fields, e.g. Eagle Field, however, I'd guess the main issue preventing it on a public field is down
to visiting GA pilots and their almost total ignorance of the hazards to
them from a winching operation.

I think the problem is this: locally based pilots would know and conform
to the rules, just as tow pilots do at a mixed tow and winch gliding site, but visiting GA pilots wouldn't know the local rules and would be a danger
to everybody, including themselves. Also, there's a good chance that both helicopter and GA pilots have no idea of just how high winched gliders can get in good winching conditions.

Our field is shown on the sectionals with a tag saying we winch to 3000ft, and I've hit 2700ft AGL in a strong breeze on a day with a strong wind
speed gradient.

Yet, we regularly have helicopters and GA aircraft overflying us at no
more than 1500ft: we report them if we can read their registration, but
that doesn't seem to help much: the only thing that has is that, now that
GA and helicopters are starting to carry moving maps, the low overflights have become less frequent.

You think such stupid things don't happen?

* Does anybody remember the Youtube video shot from a winched hang glider
that showed an ultralight, fat, dumb and happy, bimbling straight
downwind along the centre line of the HG runway, 50 ft or so below the
HG and only missing the cable by 25ft or so.

* My club's field is around a mile from a GA field and more than once
we've had to stop launching during a NOTAMed competition because some
thicko GA pilot joined our circuit and landed. Evidently they:
- hadn't read the NOTAMS (we NOTAM any competitions serious enough to
use a launch grig)
- didn't know that we have three runways in a triangle while the GA's
destination has a single runway
- evidently didn't see the grid of 30 gliders waiting to launch
- didn't notice tugs in circuit or towing gliders

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Saturday, April 1, 2023 at 11:28:03 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On Friday, March 31, 2023 at 5:20:36 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:

After a couple of weeks of glider flights in Florida I have come to the conclusion that the Motorglider guys best be paying attention and possibly asking for a refund for that expensive ego ship.
Yep, another day here in Florida and I take a look on OLC and I see that the Purist #2 has been toying around with the fancy ships flying out of Seminole Lake Motorglider Hovel.
Could it be the weather, no because the weather has been the same up that way, so what would one attribute these great flights to? Well, as OBTP would say, " I Told You So"! Yes, it is what it is, and the late Lewis Grizzard would say, "Elvis Is Dead

And The Motorglider Guys Are Not feeling Well". Get a refund, sell short, buy a pure glider and enjoy the sport as it should be enjoyed. There is a new generation coming along and they also are PURIST. Old Bob, The Purist

Still beating the dead horse, eh? But, I hope you are right that a new generation is coming along, regardless of what they choose to fly, and that they include some "motor pilots" (ie, airplane pilots that can tow). In our area, it's not the purity of

the sailplane pilot that's an issue, it's the increasing difficulty of getting towpilots even for weekends, much less mid-week flying. That's what drives pilots to motorgliders, not ego. A "pure" glider without a towplane and pilot isn't a glider, it's
just a lovely work of art.

Eric, the horse is not dead, just trying to survive without a motor, still flying real triangles not those FAI WOKE jobs. Made it back home again today without the assistance of a motor or Thermal generator. Made i around Lake O again, must have
something to do with luck, right? I will do better next time, getting too old do do this kind of thing. Old Bob, The Purist

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Saturday, April 1, 2023 at 3:10:19 PM UTC-6, Martin Gregorie wrote:

On Sat, 1 Apr 2023 10:49:46 -0600, Dan Marotta wrote:

There's always auto tow and winch. We in the USA either forget that or
are just plain chicken. For those who advertise "winch launch camps"
why not just change to full time winch? It's a boat load of fun AND
with practice, getting away is a no brainer.

Winching is my usual launch method because I enjoy it more than a tow and
it costs rather less. On a reasonable day I agree that getting away from 1400ft, a typical launch height on our winches unless you pole bend, isn't hard.

Occasionally its amazing, like the time I abandoned a launch at 1000ft due to a sudden and unexpected overspeed. I realised it might be a thermal, so sucked up the u/c and cruised down the centre line of the runway to see if
I could find anything: hit it halfway down at 900 ft. It was small
diameter and 4 kts up, quickly rising to +5, so I flew it in a flat, skidding turn rather than standing on a wingtip because, rightly ot
wrongly, I thought that would give a better climb rate. I passed over the launch point at 2000ft with the climb rate rising; at 3000 ft the averager showed +15kts. Unfortunately, I had to abandon the thermal at 4500ft: straghtened out, stuck the nose down and scarpered at 95 kts because Stanstead airspace starts at 5000ft above our field. However, I've always wondered what that thermal topped out at.

More seriously, its not likely that either the CAA or the airfield owners would allow you to winch from a general aviation field: I know that there were a couple over here that mixed auto towing with general aviation as
late as 2000, but neither do it now. The obvious exception is Lasham, but that's different: the gliding club owns the field and AFAIK non-gliding traffic there is strictly by prior arrangement,

Winching does work well in the USA on private fields, e.g. Eagle Field, however, I'd guess the main issue preventing it on a public field is down
to visiting GA pilots and their almost total ignorance of the hazards to them from a winching operation.

I think the problem is this: locally based pilots would know and conform
to the rules, just as tow pilots do at a mixed tow and winch gliding site, but visiting GA pilots wouldn't know the local rules and would be a danger to everybody, including themselves. Also, there's a good chance that both helicopter and GA pilots have no idea of just how high winched gliders can get in good winching conditions.

Our field is shown on the sectionals with a tag saying we winch to 3000ft, and I've hit 2700ft AGL in a strong breeze on a day with a strong wind
speed gradient.

Yet, we regularly have helicopters and GA aircraft overflying us at no
more than 1500ft: we report them if we can read their registration, but
that doesn't seem to help much: the only thing that has is that, now that
GA and helicopters are starting to carry moving maps, the low overflights have become less frequent.

You think such stupid things don't happen?

* Does anybody remember the Youtube video shot from a winched hang glider that showed an ultralight, fat, dumb and happy, bimbling straight
downwind along the centre line of the HG runway, 50 ft or so below the
HG and only missing the cable by 25ft or so.

* My club's field is around a mile from a GA field and more than once
we've had to stop launching during a NOTAMed competition because some
thicko GA pilot joined our circuit and landed. Evidently they:
- hadn't read the NOTAMS (we NOTAM any competitions serious enough to
use a launch grig)
- didn't know that we have three runways in a triangle while the GA's destination has a single runway
- evidently didn't see the grid of 30 gliders waiting to launch
- didn't notice tugs in circuit or towing gliders

--

Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

Winching is done a some public airports in the US. True, they are not very busy operations though have some commercial passenger flights. Bruno's group did a winch soarfari last year from several airports, including at least one with commercial
passenger flights.

I've been to three public airports where winching is/was done and a couple of private/public use airports where winching is done.

Many US glider clubs operate on airports that are too short for effective winch launching. These days, auto tow is less common that winching in the US.

Likewise, it seems to me that many US pilots that learned on aerotow are often not keen on winch launching.

Frank Whiteley

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Sat, 1 Apr 2023 22:56:19 -0700 (PDT), Frank Whiteley wrote:

Likewise, it seems to me that many US pilots that learned on aerotow are often not keen on winch launching.

That figures, since you have so many aero tow operations, not many winch
sites and no gravity launch sites..

At my club, the only training aero-tow launches a pre-solo pilot will get
are relatively high tows for spin training. This is because a winch is
much cheaper to operate than a tow plane. I only had one aero-tow before soloing, but that was because we had a paid instructor that year, who knew
how to spin a K-21 WITHOUT tail-weights and there were a series of
excellent thermal days when I hit that part of the pre-solo syllabus, so thermalling up to spin training height was easy.

The launch rate from a two drum winch is a lot higher than a two tug
operation can manage. Back in the day when we when we operated from a
launch list and had a lot of people at the launch point, 5 or 6 of us
would take over the cable tow-out truck, running the buggy to retrieve
landed gliders and marshalling gliders on the launch queue, we regularly launched 18 gliders an hour, but try as we might, we never able to exceed
that rate.

Now that we operate a booking system for training, there are a lot fewer
people at the launch point and the usual launch rate will will be less
than half that figure.


--

Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

I remember reading several years ago that the gliding club at Terlet in Holland went with a Skylaunch single drum winch with the line retrieval winch and was able to get to 24 or more launches per hour. Pretty amazing, but it required serious discipline
on the part of the pilots to be absolutely ready for launch, and the ground crew had to hustle like the "deck monkeys" on an aircraft carrier.

It would be nice to see more winching in the US, as tow pilots and towplanes are getting harder to afford and maintain. (Especially the tow pilots.) I can understand the move to motorgliders because of these factors, but I will never be able to afford
one. I will stick with what I've been doing since I started gliding- renting a towplane for six minutes.

If tow pilots and tow planes get any rarer, the non-motorglider folks might have to band together and collectively purchase a winch just to keep flying.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Sun, 2 Apr 2023 06:28:48 -0700 (PDT), Mark Mocho wrote:

I remember reading several years ago that the gliding club at Terlet in Holland went with a Skylaunch single drum winch with the line retrieval
winch and was able to get to 24 or more launches per hour. Pretty
amazing, but it required serious discipline on the part of the pilots to
be absolutely ready for launch, and the ground crew had to hustle like
the "deck monkeys" on an aircraft carrier.

I know the Terlet field from my free flight days, before I caught the
gliding bug.

There used to be an excellent Open International, the Midsummer Night
Trophy, that was flown on Terlet until a motorway was built along the edge
of the airfield. We stopped flying models there when the motorway opened because of the possibility that our models might land on the motorway and
cause accidents. That contest was replaced by one in Belgium on a NATO air firing range.

At Terlet we model flyers moved onto the field when gliding stopped for
the day and flew the first three rounds before dusk stopped play. Then we headed for the Terlet clubhouse for an evening of snacks, bull and beer,
before eventually crashing in our tents. The contest restarted soon after
dawn. We'd have flown the remaining four rounds, plus any additional
flyoff rounds and had a prize-giving on the field by the time the gliding
club had its hangars open, its gliders DIed and were ready to start
flying.


--

Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Sunday, April 2, 2023 at 7:28:50 AM UTC-6, Mark Mocho wrote:

I remember reading several years ago that the gliding club at Terlet in Holland went with a Skylaunch single drum winch with the line retrieval winch and was able to get to 24 or more launches per hour. Pretty amazing, but it required serious

discipline on the part of the pilots to be absolutely ready for launch, and the ground crew had to hustle like the "deck monkeys" on an aircraft carrier.

It would be nice to see more winching in the US, as tow pilots and towplanes are getting harder to afford and maintain. (Especially the tow pilots.) I can understand the move to motorgliders because of these factors, but I will never be able to afford

one. I will stick with what I've been doing since I started gliding- renting a towplane for six minutes.

If tow pilots and tow planes get any rarer, the non-motorglider folks might have to band together and collectively purchase a winch just to keep flying.

Perhaps the winch from Scottsdale can pay a visit to Moriarty. I suggested to Whitney that he get a winch. I think a winch, especially a two drum winch, would work very well there.

Frank Whiteley

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Apart from being keen or not on winch launching on part of the pilots,
aren't there certain downsides and hazards to the airframe of the
gliders, resulting from the specific forces and tensions when winch
launched? I can vaguely remember an article about it, many years ago -
was it in the German Aerokurier?

Tom BravoMike

.

Likewise, it seems to me that many US pilots that learned on aerotow are often not keen on winch launching.

Frank Whiteley

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Hey Mark,

Why not use your Pegase as a test mule for one of those jet engine installations? Maybe you could even deduct the cost of fuel.

Dan
5J

On 4/2/23 07:28, Mark Mocho wrote:

I remember reading several years ago that the gliding club at Terlet in Holland went with a Skylaunch single drum winch with the line retrieval winch and was able to get to 24 or more launches per hour. Pretty amazing, but it required serious

discipline on the part of the pilots to be absolutely ready for launch, and the ground crew had to hustle like the "deck monkeys" on an aircraft carrier.

It would be nice to see more winching in the US, as tow pilots and towplanes are getting harder to afford and maintain. (Especially the tow pilots.) I can understand the move to motorgliders because of these factors, but I will never be able to afford

one. I will stick with what I've been doing since I started gliding- renting a towplane for six minutes.

If tow pilots and tow planes get any rarer, the non-motorglider folks might have to band together and collectively purchase a winch just to keep flying.

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On Sunday, April 2, 2023 at 7:54:48 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:

Hey Mark,

Why not use your Pegase as a test mule for one of those jet engine installations? Maybe you could even deduct the cost of fuel.

Dan
5J
On 4/2/23 07:28, Mark Mocho wrote:

I remember reading several years ago that the gliding club at Terlet in Holland went with a Skylaunch single drum winch with the line retrieval winch and was able to get to 24 or more launches per hour. Pretty amazing, but it required serious

discipline on the part of the pilots to be absolutely ready for launch, and the ground crew had to hustle like the "deck monkeys" on an aircraft carrier.

It would be nice to see more winching in the US, as tow pilots and towplanes are getting harder to afford and maintain. (Especially the tow pilots.) I can understand the move to motorgliders because of these factors, but I will never be able to

afford one. I will stick with what I've been doing since I started gliding- renting a towplane for six minutes.

If tow pilots and tow planes get any rarer, the non-motorglider folks might have to band together and collectively purchase a winch just to keep flying.

Yes Dan, all we need is another diesel thermal generator.

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Why not use your Pegase as a test mule for one of those jet engine installations? Maybe you could even deduct the cost of fuel.

Because the Pegase does not have an engine bay, and cutting a big hole in the fuselage would require significant reinforcement, plus doors, plus all of the ancillary equipment, plus the engine(s), plus fuel tanks and way more money than I have. I'll
stick with flying the jet gliders whenever I get a chance, but my preference has always been gliding flight, going back to 1974 and hang gliding. After 28 years of hang gliding and another 23 flying sailplanes, I'm pretty well stuck in my ways. Still,
having two turbojet type ratings, but no power license is kinda neat. Especially since it completely confounds the FAA.

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Ah... The FAA...

After 50+ years of flying, I got my first ever ramp check a couple of
weeks ago in my Stemme. It was a painless non-event though a minor
annoyance.

Dan
5J

On 4/2/23 20:16, Mark Mocho wrote:

Why not use your Pegase as a test mule for one of those jet engine
installations? Maybe you could even deduct the cost of fuel.

Because the Pegase does not have an engine bay, and cutting a big hole in the fuselage would require significant reinforcement, plus doors, plus all of the ancillary equipment, plus the engine(s), plus fuel tanks and way more money than I have. I'll

stick with flying the jet gliders whenever I get a chance, but my preference has always been gliding flight, going back to 1974 and hang gliding. After 28 years of hang gliding and another 23 flying sailplanes, I'm pretty well stuck in my ways. Still,
having two turbojet type ratings, but no power license is kinda neat. Especially since it completely confounds the FAA.

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On Sunday, April 2, 2023 at 1:57:15 PM UTC-6, Tom BravoMike wrote:
Use of correct weak links and airspeeds is important. A very few gliders have life limit alterations as a result of winch/ground launching and aerobatics.

There are a few that are not approved for ground launching, at least don't have CG hooks nor the provision for fitting one.

I think few gliders have become ground launch restricted. I think some of this resulted from reviews following the failure of a K-7 wing in the UK as a result of undetected damage and concerns about aging glues.

Frank Whiteley

Apart from being keen or not on winch launching on part of the pilots, aren't there certain downsides and hazards to the airframe of the
gliders, resulting from the specific forces and tensions when winch launched? I can vaguely remember an article about it, many years ago -
was it in the German Aerokurier?

Tom BravoMike
.

Likewise, it seems to me that many US pilots that learned on aerotow are often not keen on winch launching.

Frank Whiteley

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On Saturday, April 1, 2023 at 2:10:19 PM UTC-7, Martin Gregorie wrote:

On Sat, 1 Apr 2023 10:49:46 -0600, Dan Marotta wrote:

There's always auto tow and winch. We in the USA either forget that or
are just plain chicken. For those who advertise "winch launch camps"
why not just change to full time winch? It's a boat load of fun AND
with practice, getting away is a no brainer.

Winching is my usual launch method because I enjoy it more than a tow and
it costs rather less. On a reasonable day I agree that getting away from 1400ft, a typical launch height on our winches unless you pole bend, isn't hard.

Occasionally its amazing, like the time I abandoned a launch at 1000ft due to a sudden and unexpected overspeed. I realised it might be a thermal, so sucked up the u/c and cruised down the centre line of the runway to see if
I could find anything: hit it halfway down at 900 ft. It was small
diameter and 4 kts up, quickly rising to +5, so I flew it in a flat, skidding turn rather than standing on a wingtip because, rightly ot
wrongly, I thought that would give a better climb rate.

You are lucky that you didn't kill yourself. A low-altitude skidding turn is a sure-fire setup to a stall-spin accident. You likely would not have recovered at that altitude.

Tom 2G



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On Thu, 4 May 2023 18:48:47 -0700 (PDT), 2G wrote:

You are lucky that you didn't kill yourself. A low-altitude skidding
turn is a sure-fire setup to a stall-spin accident. You likely would not
have recovered at that altitude.

Unlikely: it wasn't a flat, *SLOW*, over-ruddered turn and I was never
under 50 kts.

FWIW the breeze took me straight down the centre of the runway and smack
over the launch point, at 2300 ft above it, and, as it was a busy day,
there would have been at least two instructors watching. They never said a word, and in my club instructors ALWAYS call you out for unsafe or inconsiderate flying: I was surprised that they didn't have a word later
for holding up the launch queue until the breeze took me past the launch
point: if the lift had been weak I'm sure they would have had a word for
being a time-waster..


--

Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

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On Friday, May 5, 2023 at 3:03:22 AM UTC-7, Martin Gregorie wrote:

On Thu, 4 May 2023 18:48:47 -0700 (PDT), 2G wrote:

You are lucky that you didn't kill yourself. A low-altitude skidding
turn is a sure-fire setup to a stall-spin accident. You likely would not have recovered at that altitude.

Unlikely: it wasn't a flat, *SLOW*, over-ruddered turn and I was never
under 50 kts.

FWIW the breeze took me straight down the centre of the runway and smack over the launch point, at 2300 ft above it, and, as it was a busy day,
there would have been at least two instructors watching. They never said a word, and in my club instructors ALWAYS call you out for unsafe or inconsiderate flying: I was surprised that they didn't have a word later
for holding up the launch queue until the breeze took me past the launch point: if the lift had been weak I'm sure they would have had a word for being a time-waster..
--

Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

"Unlikely" is just your judgment, which is questionable factoring that you considered this to be a good idea at low altitude. Skidding turns at pattern altitude are a major factor in factor airplane accidents because they reduce your margin for error.
Get a tail gust at this point and you are into a spin. The airspeed of the inside wing was lower than your stated 50 kt, which is measured on the nose, so a gust as low as 5 kt could have stalled that wing. Ten to 20 kt gusts are routine.
https://www.faa.gov/news/safety_briefing/2022/media/SE_Topic_22-02_Stall_Spin_Training.pdf

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On Friday, May 5, 2023 at 8:55:02 AM UTC-7, 2G wrote:

On Friday, May 5, 2023 at 3:03:22 AM UTC-7, Martin Gregorie wrote:

On Thu, 4 May 2023 18:48:47 -0700 (PDT), 2G wrote:

You are lucky that you didn't kill yourself. A low-altitude skidding turn is a sure-fire setup to a stall-spin accident. You likely would not have recovered at that altitude.

Unlikely: it wasn't a flat, *SLOW*, over-ruddered turn and I was never under 50 kts.

FWIW the breeze took me straight down the centre of the runway and smack over the launch point, at 2300 ft above it, and, as it was a busy day, there would have been at least two instructors watching. They never said a word, and in my club instructors ALWAYS call you out for unsafe or inconsiderate flying: I was surprised that they didn't have a word later for holding up the launch queue until the breeze took me past the launch point: if the lift had been weak I'm sure they would have had a word for being a time-waster..
--

Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

"Unlikely" is just your judgment, which is questionable factoring that you considered this to be a good idea at low altitude. Skidding turns at pattern altitude are a major factor in factor airplane accidents because they reduce your margin for error.

Get a tail gust at this point and you are into a spin. The airspeed of the inside wing was lower than your stated 50 kt, which is measured on the nose, so a gust as low as 5 kt could have stalled that wing. Ten to 20 kt gusts are routine.

https://www.faa.gov/news/safety_briefing/2022/media/SE_Topic_22-02_Stall_Spin_Training.pdf

"Year after year, stall/spin events account for a
disturbing number of general aviation accidents.
According to the Air Safety Institute’s Nall Report,
“failure to maintain airspeed” appears as a proximate
or contributing cause in roughly 40 percent of the fatal
accidents. This statistic persists in spite of stalls, stall
recovery, and stall prevention having been taught —
ad nauseam — to virtually every candidate for every
certificate, rating, flight review, insurance checkout,
and type certificate over the last half-century, or more."

Preventing Stalls with the Proper Use of Trim https://www.faa.gov/news/safety_briefing/2014/media/MarApr2014.pdf

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