• Re: Pre Takeoff Checklist

    From Clive Gawler@21:1/5 to Walt Plentis on Sat Feb 11 03:48:44 2023
    On Monday, July 16, 2001 at 4:17:42 PM UTC+1, Walt Plentis wrote:
    Does anyone know the acronym used to remember the pre-takeoff checklist items?
    I was reminiscing with some, now very old, fellow aviators about happy days at West Malling - John Buckle and Gerry Fuller in those days. CBSITCB was I recall - controls, ballast, spoliers (fully open and in line then closed), instruments, trim, canopy,
    brakes. Then shout 'take up slack....all out'. Happy days.

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  • From John Godfrey@21:1/5 to Clive Gawler on Sat Feb 11 15:18:43 2023
    On Saturday, February 11, 2023 at 6:48:46 AM UTC-5, Clive Gawler wrote:
    On Monday, July 16, 2001 at 4:17:42 PM UTC+1, Walt Plentis wrote:
    Does anyone know the acronym used to remember the pre-takeoff checklist items?
    I was reminiscing with some, now very old, fellow aviators about happy days at West Malling - John Buckle and Gerry Fuller in those days. CBSITCB was I recall - controls, ballast, spoliers (fully open and in line then closed), instruments, trim, canopy,
    brakes. Then shout 'take up slack....all out'. Happy days.
    The amount US soaring has benefited from standardization is immeasurable.

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  • From Moshe Braner@21:1/5 to John Godfrey on Sat Feb 11 20:18:21 2023
    On 2/11/2023 6:18 PM, John Godfrey wrote:
    On Saturday, February 11, 2023 at 6:48:46 AM UTC-5, Clive Gawler wrote:
    On Monday, July 16, 2001 at 4:17:42 PM UTC+1, Walt Plentis wrote:
    Does anyone know the acronym used to remember the pre-takeoff checklist
    items?
    I was reminiscing with some, now very old, fellow aviators about happy days at West Malling - John Buckle and Gerry Fuller in those days. CBSITCB was I recall - controls, ballast, spoliers (fully open and in line then closed), instruments, trim,
    canopy, brakes. Then shout 'take up slack....all out'. Happy days.
    The amount US soaring has benefited from standardization is immeasurable.


    Immeasurable as in too small to measure? As they say, the great thing
    about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from!

    I prefer a checklist written on a placard in the cockpit. It may not be standard, but I don't have to memorize it, and thus not likely to forget
    items on it.

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  • From Chip Bearden@21:1/5 to All on Sat Feb 11 21:19:31 2023
    Yeah, I also have a printed checklist I use: 88 items in four groups: Assembly stuff, Grid stuff, Task stuff, and Pre-takeoff stuff. Many contest pilots have something similar. In a contest, I pencil them off. At my home airport, I run my thumb down as I
    walk around the glider (the Assembly items are structured to begin in the cockpit, then proceed to the left wing, fuselage, tail, and right wing before concluding at the cockpit).

    But old habits die hard, and the last, additional segment of the list is another 6 items I read off outloud from the very old days:
    A - altimeter set
    B - Belts and harness fastened
    C - Controls free (positive control check is on the written checklist)
    C - Canopy down and locked
    C - cable connected properly
    D - dive brakes (closed and locked for most, but I roll with my brakes out for better aileron control)

    My philosophy is that the written checklist is too important and far too long for mnemonics. I suspect I would think differently if I instructed or gave rides or flew a lot of different gliders. But except for flight reviews, all of my flying is in my
    ASW 24, and has been for years.

    Chip Bearden

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  • From John Foster@21:1/5 to Chip Bearden on Sat Feb 11 23:12:34 2023
    On Saturday, February 11, 2023 at 10:19:33 PM UTC-7, Chip Bearden wrote:
    Yeah, I also have a printed checklist I use: 88 items in four groups: Assembly stuff, Grid stuff, Task stuff, and Pre-takeoff stuff. Many contest pilots have something similar. In a contest, I pencil them off. At my home airport, I run my thumb down as
    I walk around the glider (the Assembly items are structured to begin in the cockpit, then proceed to the left wing, fuselage, tail, and right wing before concluding at the cockpit).

    But old habits die hard, and the last, additional segment of the list is another 6 items I read off outloud from the very old days:
    A - altimeter set
    B - Belts and harness fastened
    C - Controls free (positive control check is on the written checklist)
    C - Canopy down and locked
    C - cable connected properly
    D - dive brakes (closed and locked for most, but I roll with my brakes out for better aileron control)

    My philosophy is that the written checklist is too important and far too long for mnemonics. I suspect I would think differently if I instructed or gave rides or flew a lot of different gliders. But except for flight reviews, all of my flying is in my
    ASW 24, and has been for years.

    Chip Bearden

    Having learned on a SGS 2-33, I learned the "A-B-C" list, but slightly different:
    A - Altimeter
    B - Belts & Harnesses
    B - Balast
    C - Control check
    C - Canopy closed/latched
    C - Cable connected
    D - Dive brakes closed and locked
    D - Direction (of the wind)
    E - Emergency plan

    1A, 2B, 3C, 2D, 1E
    I also added my own "F" for Flight Computer, as I run XC Soar on an Android phone, and there has been more than one flight where I found out it wasn't turned on while I was on tow already.

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  • From Tim Newport-Peace@21:1/5 to Clive Gawler on Sun Feb 12 10:28:20 2023
    On 11/02/2023 11:48, Clive Gawler wrote:
    On Monday, July 16, 2001 at 4:17:42 PM UTC+1, Walt Plentis wrote:
    Does anyone know the acronym used to remember the pre-takeoff checklist
    items?
    I was reminiscing with some, now very old, fellow aviators about happy days at West Malling - John Buckle and Gerry Fuller in those days. CBSITCB was I recall - controls, ballast, spoliers (fully open and in line then closed), instruments, trim, canopy,
    brakes. Then shout 'take up slack....all out'. Happy days.

    I recall it as:
    Controls, Brakes, Straps, Instruments. Trim, Canopy, Brakes

    Brakes twice as some very experienced pilots had tried to take-off with
    brakes open. I will mention no names. The only Ballast in those days was
    the Talking Ballast sitting beside/behind you.

    There was also another SISTRS, but I never used it.

    Back when winching was the Norm and not the Exception, there was an
    acronym for Cable-brake procedure, NARSTI.

    Nose-down Attitude, Release, Speed, Trim, Instruments

    unless you were an instructor, in which case it was:
    No Attitude Really Surprises This Idiot!

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  • From Dan Marotta@21:1/5 to Chip Bearden on Sun Feb 12 10:25:53 2023
    I could never quite got the hang of CHAOTIC when I was flying a twin
    Lark off the winch at Bond Springs, NT, Australia. I carry (and use)
    printed check lists in the Stemme and Cessna 180.

    Dan
    5J

    On 2/11/23 22:19, Chip Bearden wrote:
    Yeah, I also have a printed checklist I use: 88 items in four groups: Assembly stuff, Grid stuff, Task stuff, and Pre-takeoff stuff. Many contest pilots have something similar. In a contest, I pencil them off. At my home airport, I run my thumb down as
    I walk around the glider (the Assembly items are structured to begin in the cockpit, then proceed to the left wing, fuselage, tail, and right wing before concluding at the cockpit).

    But old habits die hard, and the last, additional segment of the list is another 6 items I read off outloud from the very old days:
    A - altimeter set
    B - Belts and harness fastened
    C - Controls free (positive control check is on the written checklist)
    C - Canopy down and locked
    C - cable connected properly
    D - dive brakes (closed and locked for most, but I roll with my brakes out for better aileron control)

    My philosophy is that the written checklist is too important and far too long for mnemonics. I suspect I would think differently if I instructed or gave rides or flew a lot of different gliders. But except for flight reviews, all of my flying is in my
    ASW 24, and has been for years.

    Chip Bearden

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  • From john firth@21:1/5 to Dan Marotta on Sun Feb 12 10:41:24 2023
    On Sunday, February 12, 2023 at 12:26:05 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
    I could never quite got the hang of CHAOTIC when I was flying a twin
    Lark off the winch at Bond Springs, NT, Australia. I carry (and use)
    printed check lists in the Stemme and Cessna 180.

    Dan
    5J
    On 2/11/23 22:19, Chip Bearden wrote:
    Yeah, I also have a printed checklist I use: 88 items in four groups: Assembly stuff, Grid stuff, Task stuff, and Pre-takeoff stuff. Many contest pilots have something similar. In a contest, I pencil them off. At my home airport, I run my thumb down
    as I walk around the glider (the Assembly items are structured to begin in the cockpit, then proceed to the left wing, fuselage, tail, and right wing before concluding at the cockpit).

    But old habits die hard, and the last, additional segment of the list is another 6 items I read off outloud from the very old days:
    A - altimeter set
    B - Belts and harness fastened
    C - Controls free (positive control check is on the written checklist)
    C - Canopy down and locked
    C - cable connected properly
    D - dive brakes (closed and locked for most, but I roll with my brakes out for better aileron control)

    My philosophy is that the written checklist is too important and far too long for mnemonics. I suspect I would think differently if I instructed or gave rides or flew a lot of different gliders. But except for flight reviews, all of my flying is in
    my ASW 24, and has been for years.

    Chip Bearden
    Having once been National Safety officer and still concerned for my own, I always read the accidents summary
    in Sailplane and Gliding; very few serious injuries and no fatalities for some time; the BGA has clearly been
    doing a good job of monitoring training.
    However, gear up landings still appear regularly; I have done one myself ( no audio warning fitted)
    The Gear/Brake switches plus audio have saved me a few times when distracted, even though I normally
    lower the gear before entering the circuit. Why does the BGA not insist that all retractable gear gliders
    have a warning installed?

    John Firth ( Canada)

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  • From ProfJ@21:1/5 to john firth on Mon Feb 13 14:02:19 2023
    On Sunday, 12 February 2023 at 11:41:26 UTC-7, john firth wrote:
    On Sunday, February 12, 2023 at 12:26:05 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
    I could never quite got the hang of CHAOTIC when I was flying a twin
    Lark off the winch at Bond Springs, NT, Australia. I carry (and use) printed check lists in the Stemme and Cessna 180.

    Dan
    5J
    On 2/11/23 22:19, Chip Bearden wrote:
    Yeah, I also have a printed checklist I use: 88 items in four groups: Assembly stuff, Grid stuff, Task stuff, and Pre-takeoff stuff. Many contest pilots have something similar. In a contest, I pencil them off. At my home airport, I run my thumb
    down as I walk around the glider (the Assembly items are structured to begin in the cockpit, then proceed to the left wing, fuselage, tail, and right wing before concluding at the cockpit).

    But old habits die hard, and the last, additional segment of the list is another 6 items I read off outloud from the very old days:
    A - altimeter set
    B - Belts and harness fastened
    C - Controls free (positive control check is on the written checklist)
    C - Canopy down and locked
    C - cable connected properly
    D - dive brakes (closed and locked for most, but I roll with my brakes out for better aileron control)

    My philosophy is that the written checklist is too important and far too long for mnemonics. I suspect I would think differently if I instructed or gave rides or flew a lot of different gliders. But except for flight reviews, all of my flying is in
    my ASW 24, and has been for years.

    Chip Bearden
    Having once been National Safety officer and still concerned for my own, I always read the accidents summary
    in Sailplane and Gliding; very few serious injuries and no fatalities for some time; the BGA has clearly been
    doing a good job of monitoring training.
    However, gear up landings still appear regularly; I have done one myself ( no audio warning fitted)
    The Gear/Brake switches plus audio have saved me a few times when distracted, even though I normally
    lower the gear before entering the circuit. Why does the BGA not insist that all retractable gear gliders
    have a warning installed?

    John Firth ( Canada)

    One of the items in the landing checklist I was taught (WUFSTALL - you figure it out) was an (A)irbrake check - crack the spoilers an inch or two, to ensure they aren't frozen shut. I did that in my first flight in Australia with a checkride instructor,
    and he really didn't like it..i

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  • From George Haeh@21:1/5 to All on Mon Feb 13 17:32:10 2023
    I am reminded of the earnest discussion by medieval theologians about how many angels can dance on a pinhead.

    Soaring Association Canada offers checklist placards at

    https://www.sac.ca/index.php/en/home-all/supplies

    KISS applies. Hopefully by the time you are flying a single seater where there's typically no room for the placards, you should have them memorized. SWAFTS is pretty easy to memorise for landing.

    A tilt up canopy with the manufacturer checklist visible is very handy.

    Having stalled out of a rambunctious thermal at 9500' while fiddling with my cannula, I now set it up before takeoff.

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  • From Dan Marotta@21:1/5 to George Haeh on Tue Feb 14 12:45:35 2023
    Looks like SWAFTS would be easy to memorize but I'm damned if I can
    figure out what the letters mean...

    No worries - my certificated glider has a gear warning built in from the factory.

    Dan
    5J

    On 2/13/23 18:32, George Haeh wrote:
    I am reminded of the earnest discussion by medieval theologians about how many angels can dance on a pinhead.

    Soaring Association Canada offers checklist placards at

    https://www.sac.ca/index.php/en/home-all/supplies

    KISS applies. Hopefully by the time you are flying a single seater where there's typically no room for the placards, you should have them memorized. SWAFTS is pretty easy to memorise for landing.

    A tilt up canopy with the manufacturer checklist visible is very handy.

    Having stalled out of a rambunctious thermal at 9500' while fiddling with my cannula, I now set it up before takeoff.

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  • From Guy Byars@21:1/5 to Dan Marotta on Tue Feb 14 12:59:15 2023
    On Tuesday, February 14, 2023 at 2:45:44 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
    Looks like SWAFTS would be easy to memorize but I'm damned if I can
    figure out what the letters mean...

    No worries - my certificated glider has a gear warning built in from the factory.

    No worries. Who needs a checklist:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5McECUtM8fw&t=190s

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  • From 2G@21:1/5 to Guy Byars on Tue Feb 14 21:57:31 2023
    On Tuesday, February 14, 2023 at 12:59:17 PM UTC-8, Guy Byars wrote:
    On Tuesday, February 14, 2023 at 2:45:44 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
    Looks like SWAFTS would be easy to memorize but I'm damned if I can
    figure out what the letters mean...

    No worries - my certificated glider has a gear warning built in from the factory.
    No worries. Who needs a checklist:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5McECUtM8fw&t=190s

    I like checklists - when they are written. A verbal mnemonic is only better than nothing, but not by much. A better approach is to physically touch every control and instrument in your cockpit, to force you to consider if they have been set or taken into
    account.

    Tom

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  • From jp@21:1/5 to All on Wed Feb 15 18:28:45 2023
    On Tuesday, February 14, 2023 at 9:57:32 PM UTC-8, 2G wrote:
    On Tuesday, February 14, 2023 at 12:59:17 PM UTC-8, Guy Byars wrote:
    On Tuesday, February 14, 2023 at 2:45:44 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
    Looks like SWAFTS would be easy to memorize but I'm damned if I can figure out what the letters mean...

    No worries - my certificated glider has a gear warning built in from the factory.
    No worries. Who needs a checklist:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5McECUtM8fw&t=190s
    I like checklists - when they are written. A verbal mnemonic is only better than nothing, but not by much. A better approach is to physically touch every control and instrument in your cockpit, to force you to consider if they have been set or taken
    into account.

    Tom
    I have mixed feelings about written checklists. I have felt uneasy when I see a student pilot reading a written pre-landing checklist while in the pattern. I usually would rather they were checking things from memory while paying attention to what's
    outside.

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  • From Moshe Braner@21:1/5 to All on Thu Feb 16 13:04:32 2023
    On 2/15/2023 9:28 PM, jp wrote:
    On Tuesday, February 14, 2023 at 9:57:32 PM UTC-8, 2G wrote:
    On Tuesday, February 14, 2023 at 12:59:17 PM UTC-8, Guy Byars wrote:
    On Tuesday, February 14, 2023 at 2:45:44 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
    Looks like SWAFTS would be easy to memorize but I'm damned if I can
    figure out what the letters mean...

    No worries - my certificated glider has a gear warning built in from the >>>> factory.
    No worries. Who needs a checklist:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5McECUtM8fw&t=190s
    I like checklists - when they are written. A verbal mnemonic is only better than nothing, but not by much. A better approach is to physically touch every control and instrument in your cockpit, to force you to consider if they have been set or taken
    into account.

    Tom
    I have mixed feelings about written checklists. I have felt uneasy when I see a student pilot reading a written pre-landing checklist while in the pattern. I usually would rather they were checking things from memory while paying attention to what's
    outside.


    Being pilot in command requires multi-tasking. Even if not reading a
    written checklist, one must do the things on the memorized list. And
    listen to the radio (and talk sometimes). And look for hints about the
    wind on the ground. All while flying the glider in the pattern,
    maintaining airspeed, observing altitude and 2D location, re-planning
    the pattern if things go out of whack. Etc. Same in other phases of
    flight, e.g., evaluate whether the glide back to the airport is getting marginal, and look for traffic, while flying the glider and perhaps
    working lift. A student pilot is not ready to fly solo until they can multitask to some extent. Sometimes I even intentionally try to
    distract my students - a needed lesson.

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  • From jp@21:1/5 to Moshe Braner on Thu Feb 16 10:51:35 2023
    On Thursday, February 16, 2023 at 10:04:32 AM UTC-8, Moshe Braner wrote:
    On 2/15/2023 9:28 PM, jp wrote:
    On Tuesday, February 14, 2023 at 9:57:32 PM UTC-8, 2G wrote:
    On Tuesday, February 14, 2023 at 12:59:17 PM UTC-8, Guy Byars wrote:
    On Tuesday, February 14, 2023 at 2:45:44 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote: >>>> Looks like SWAFTS would be easy to memorize but I'm damned if I can >>>> figure out what the letters mean...

    No worries - my certificated glider has a gear warning built in from the
    factory.
    No worries. Who needs a checklist:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5McECUtM8fw&t=190s
    I like checklists - when they are written. A verbal mnemonic is only better than nothing, but not by much. A better approach is to physically touch every control and instrument in your cockpit, to force you to consider if they have been set or taken
    into account.

    Tom
    I have mixed feelings about written checklists. I have felt uneasy when I see a student pilot reading a written pre-landing checklist while in the pattern. I usually would rather they were checking things from memory while paying attention to what's
    outside.

    Being pilot in command requires multi-tasking. Even if not reading a
    written checklist, one must do the things on the memorized list. And
    listen to the radio (and talk sometimes). And look for hints about the
    wind on the ground. All while flying the glider in the pattern,
    maintaining airspeed, observing altitude and 2D location, re-planning
    the pattern if things go out of whack. Etc. Same in other phases of
    flight, e.g., evaluate whether the glide back to the airport is getting marginal, and look for traffic, while flying the glider and perhaps
    working lift. A student pilot is not ready to fly solo until they can multitask to some extent. Sometimes I even intentionally try to
    distract my students - a needed lesson.
    That is so true Moshe! The use of a memorized "checklist" does not ensure that the pilot is remaining alert to the outside world. Sometimes it just seems like it may give a little better chance. Students, especially low-time students, often seem to be
    straining a bit to read a written checklist. That scares me a little.

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  • From Martin Gregorie@21:1/5 to Tim Newport-Peace on Thu Feb 16 19:38:42 2023
    On Sun, 12 Feb 2023 10:28:20 +0000, Tim Newport-Peace wrote:

    I recall it as:
    Controls, Brakes, Straps, Instruments. Trim, Canopy, Brakes


    We use

    Controls - full free movement of stick and rudder
    Ballast - If you need cockpit weights, are they installed and secure Straps - are they secure and undamaged
    Instruments - all working? Glass not broken?
    Flaps - Set for takeoff, if fitted
    Trim - trim set for takeoff
    Brakes - airbrakes checked, closed and locked
    Eventualities - think through speeds, turn directions,
    etc if the launch fails
    Canopy - check the canopy is closed and locked
    push to make sure
    - CBSIFTBEC

    We moved 'Eventualities' to last in last summer's heat: don't know if
    we'll move in back the its usual place (formerly CBSIFTBCE)

    WULF is the most common landing mnemonic:

    Water - ballast tanks empty
    Undercarriage - UC down and locked
    Lookout - who's in the circuit
    Flaps - flaps set for landing

    But expect a radio call from 3-5 miles out if you've been cross country to announce your current distance and approach direction and a call before
    you join the circuit to announce your arrival in local airspace and the direction you intend to turn (we allow both circuit directions so that in
    a cross wind the downwind leg can be on the downwind side of the runway.


    --

    Martin | martin at
    Gregorie | gregorie dot org

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  • From Frank Whiteley@21:1/5 to Martin Gregorie on Thu Feb 16 11:53:55 2023
    On Thursday, February 16, 2023 at 12:38:51 PM UTC-7, Martin Gregorie wrote:
    On Sun, 12 Feb 2023 10:28:20 +0000, Tim Newport-Peace wrote:

    I recall it as:
    Controls, Brakes, Straps, Instruments. Trim, Canopy, Brakes

    We use

    Controls - full free movement of stick and rudder
    Ballast - If you need cockpit weights, are they installed and secure
    Straps - are they secure and undamaged
    Instruments - all working? Glass not broken?
    Flaps - Set for takeoff, if fitted
    Trim - trim set for takeoff
    Brakes - airbrakes checked, closed and locked
    Eventualities - think through speeds, turn directions,
    etc if the launch fails
    Canopy - check the canopy is closed and locked
    push to make sure
    - CBSIFTBEC

    We moved 'Eventualities' to last in last summer's heat: don't know if
    we'll move in back the its usual place (formerly CBSIFTBCE)

    WULF is the most common landing mnemonic:

    Water - ballast tanks empty
    Undercarriage - UC down and locked
    Lookout - who's in the circuit
    Flaps - flaps set for landing

    But expect a radio call from 3-5 miles out if you've been cross country to announce your current distance and approach direction and a call before
    you join the circuit to announce your arrival in local airspace and the direction you intend to turn (we allow both circuit directions so that in
    a cross wind the downwind leg can be on the downwind side of the runway.


    --

    Martin | martin at
    Gregorie | gregorie dot org
    What happened to wulfstall, which was an update for ustall?

    Frank Whiteley

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  • From Martin Gregorie@21:1/5 to Frank Whiteley on Thu Feb 16 20:10:07 2023
    On Thu, 16 Feb 2023 11:53:55 -0800 (PST), Frank Whiteley wrote:

    What happened to wulfstall, which was an update for ustall?


    Pass: WULF worked for me when I flew water carrying gliders. Now my
    preferred mount is a 201 Libelle, WULF reduces to UL.


    --

    Martin | martin at
    Gregorie | gregorie dot org

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