If you are towing full-sized gliders (meaning other than hang gliders or light sport) with an LSA in the United States or know of someone who is, please reply. Otherwise, may I politely and respectfully ask for silence?who has solved this problem and is towing with an LSA.
I have been in recent conversations about how FAA regulations (or their implementation) may or may not make it impossible to legally tow a full-sized glider with a light sport aircraft. I am looking for evidence to the contrary in the form of someone
If the reality is that this has never been accomplished, there's no need to discuss the regulations, except to seek regulatory changes.
Many thanks,
...david
If you are towing full-sized gliders (meaning other than hang gliders or light sport) with an LSA in the United States or know of someone who is, please reply. Otherwise, may I politely and respectfully ask for silence?who has solved this problem and is towing with an LSA.
I have been in recent conversations about how FAA regulations (or their implementation) may or may not make it impossible to legally tow a full-sized glider with a light sport aircraft. I am looking for evidence to the contrary in the form of someone
If the reality is that this has never been accomplished, there's no need to discuss the regulations, except to seek regulatory changes.I like this question, I am anxiously awaiting a reply. I know on NO clubs or commercial operators towing with a LSA or motorglider. The motorglider guys love this towing with a motorglider concept, they have no idea of the towing. OBTP
Many thanks,
...david
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 10:58:27 AM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:who has solved this problem and is towing with an LSA.
If you are towing full-sized gliders (meaning other than hang gliders or light sport) with an LSA in the United States or know of someone who is, please reply. Otherwise, may I politely and respectfully ask for silence?
I have been in recent conversations about how FAA regulations (or their implementation) may or may not make it impossible to legally tow a full-sized glider with a light sport aircraft. I am looking for evidence to the contrary in the form of someone
I like this question, I am anxiously awaiting a reply. I know on NO clubs or commercial operators towing with a LSA or motorglider. The motorglider guys love this towing with a motorglider concept, they have no idea of the towing. OBTP
If the reality is that this has never been accomplished, there's no need to discuss the regulations, except to seek regulatory changes.
Many thanks,
...david
Well... I'm a motorglider guy and I don't love this idea.someone who has solved this problem and is towing with an LSA.
I hope the motorglider guys who tow full scale gliders charge enough to
pay for gas and oil AND engine overhaul.
Dan
5J
On 1/19/23 14:45, [email protected] wrote:
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 10:58:27 AM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
If you are towing full-sized gliders (meaning other than hang gliders or light sport) with an LSA in the United States or know of someone who is, please reply. Otherwise, may I politely and respectfully ask for silence?
I have been in recent conversations about how FAA regulations (or their implementation) may or may not make it impossible to legally tow a full-sized glider with a light sport aircraft. I am looking for evidence to the contrary in the form of
It's a part of the standard boilerplate of FAA restrictions when an experimental certificate is issued, but it doesn't have to be. If you look at the FAA 8900 you may find a path to a certificate without that restriction. I know that it was done by BillI like this question, I am anxiously awaiting a reply. I know on NO clubs or commercial operators towing with a LSA or motorglider. The motorglider guys love this towing with a motorglider concept, they have no idea of the towing. OBTP
If the reality is that this has never been accomplished, there's no need to discuss the regulations, except to seek regulatory changes.
Many thanks,
...david
My understanding is Experimental Aircraft are not authorized to tow anything, at anytime in the United States.The Phoenix is a LSA category airplane, towing with experimental is allowed only with approval from the FSDO. The question that I have is the LSA approved to tow without the FSDO specific aircraft approval ? R, you and I both tow, we understand the need
I believe the Phoenix is experimental.
R
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 7:04:24 PM UTC-5, R wrote:need for horses and performance. Clubs and commercial operators would be hard pressed to make the LSA Motorglider a viable replacement for the Pawnee, or the 182, both which are good workhorses and tow planes. Having been in situations where Pawnee
My understanding is Experimental Aircraft are not authorized to tow anything, at anytime in the United States.The Phoenix is a LSA category airplane, towing with experimental is allowed only with approval from the FSDO. The question that I have is the LSA approved to tow without the FSDO specific aircraft approval ? R, you and I both tow, we understand the
I believe the Phoenix is experimental.
R
On 1/20/2023 5:55 AM, [email protected] wrote:need for horses and performance. Clubs and commercial operators would be hard pressed to make the LSA Motorglider a viable replacement for the Pawnee, or the 182, both which are good workhorses and tow planes. Having been in situations where Pawnee
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 7:04:24 PM UTC-5, R wrote:
My understanding is Experimental Aircraft are not authorized to tow anything, at anytime in the United States.The Phoenix is a LSA category airplane, towing with experimental is allowed only with approval from the FSDO. The question that I have is the LSA approved to tow without the FSDO specific aircraft approval ? R, you and I both tow, we understand the
I believe the Phoenix is experimental.
R
The PHoenix is an LSA category GLIDER, not an airplane. I don't know if that makes aMy vote is for the Pawnee.
difference to the discussion.
Which is safer: Making 1300 tows a year in a Pawnee, or 100 tows a year in an LSA aircraft?
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
For what it is worth, one of the tow planes in the Condor glider flight simulation is an LSA, which suggests towing with an LSA may be legal in Europe. The aircraft is a WT9 Dynamic. https://lsa.aerospool.skThe manufacturers website list specifications for the "Tow Version".
On 1/20/2023 5:55 AM, [email protected] wrote:
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 7:04:24 PM UTC-5, R wrote:
My understanding is Experimental Aircraft are not authorized to towThe Phoenix is a LSA category airplane, towing with experimental is
anything, at anytime in the United States.
I believe the Phoenix is experimental.
R
allowed only with approval from the FSDO. The question that I have is
the LSA approved to tow without the FSDO specific aircraft approval ?
R, you and I both tow, we understand the need for horses and
performance. Clubs and commercial operators would be hard pressed to
make the LSA Motorglider a viable replacement for the Pawnee, or the
182, both which are good workhorses and tow planes. Having been in
situations where Pawnee horsepower saved my life and I am sure you
have had situations down south that made you feel much safer with that
extra hp. How would you like to be towing with a LSA motorglider and
some glider pilot makes that deadly mistake of kiting down low,
wouldn't take much to ruin your day, and it would happen very fast.
See you next week. OBTP
The PHoenix is an LSA category GLIDER, not an airplane. I don't know if
that makes a difference to the discussion.
Which is safer: Making 1300 tows a year in a Pawnee, or 100 tows a year
in an LSA aircraft?
I don't think it's legal to operate commercially with a Light Sport *Aircraft* I haven't
heard of a Light Sport *Glider*. Likewise, I don't know if a club's charging for tows is
considered a "commercial" operation. And, as we all know, commercial operations are not
allowed in Light Sport Aircraft.
Since an aircraft's ability to climb is a function of its *excess* power, and given how
light LSAs are, I'd think you'd use a major chunk of your excess power to tow a glider.
That would translate directly to lower performance and higher wear and tear and at a far
greater proportion to the value of the aircraft than it would with a Pawnee.
If you're so altruistic that you want to give away the life of your Phoenix then, by all
means, go for it! But don't charge for the service.
Dan
5J
On 1/20/23 07:50, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 1/20/2023 5:55 AM, [email protected] wrote:
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 7:04:24 PM UTC-5, R wrote:
My understanding is Experimental Aircraft are not authorized to tow anything, atThe Phoenix is a LSA category airplane, towing with experimental is allowed only with
anytime in the United States.
I believe the Phoenix is experimental.
R
approval from the FSDO. The question that I have is the LSA approved to tow without the
FSDO specific aircraft approval ? R, you and I both tow, we understand the need for
horses and performance. Clubs and commercial operators would be hard pressed to make
the LSA Motorglider a viable replacement for the Pawnee, or the 182, both which are
good workhorses and tow planes. Having been in situations where Pawnee horsepower saved
my life and I am sure you have had situations down south that made you feel much safer
with that extra hp. How would you like to be towing with a LSA motorglider and some
glider pilot makes that deadly mistake of kiting down low, wouldn't take much to ruin
your day, and it would happen very fast. See you next week. OBTP
The PHoenix is an LSA category GLIDER, not an airplane. I don't know if that makes a
difference to the discussion.
Which is safer: Making 1300 tows a year in a Pawnee, or 100 tows a year in an LSA aircraft?
For what it is worth, one of the tow planes in the Condor glider flight simulation is an LSA, which suggests towing with an LSA may be legal in Europe. The aircraft is a WT9 Dynamic. https://lsa.aerospool.sk
On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 5:16:02 AM UTC+10:30, Scott Manley wrote:
For what it is worth, one of the tow planes in the Condor glider flight simulation is an LSA, which suggests towing with an LSA may be legal in Europe. The aircraft is a WT9 Dynamic. https://lsa.aerospool.skThe Dynamic is a wonderful towplane (and aircraft) and is used all over Europe with the 912 Rotax.
For higher density altitudes they also offer it with a 914 or even 915. The 914 is already comparable to a Pawnee in performance.
Operating location would be a utilization factor, in turn determining a good fit for that club. Just having a wing runner who can complete a treadmill test equivalent for each glider launch would require the club to have a very robust Jr. memberprogram (the other thread showing a Phoenix towing with two wing runners doing a 600 yd walk/skip/run). Acceleration was 😴 Zzzzzzz snorkel 💤. I would need oxygen.
And you can forget about tailwind launches …or hire Olympian Peter Bole… But, I can see an LSA earning its pay…hard surface, open spaces, low density altitude average….JATO.I did once see a Phoenix in Florida with a tow release attached to the airplane, if I recall correctly it was near Titusville. As I looked at the airplane I could not figure out why someone would have a tow release on such platform. I finally came to the
If it works, I’m in…
R
It is sold in the USA as a light-sport, the only barrier to its glider towing is legislative.
You've heard of the Phoenix, so you have heard of a Light Sport Glider.
It requires a glider license to fly it. It's 30:1 with the prop feathered.
With myself and about 15 gallons of fuel (enough for 3:45 hours of
cruising at about 110 knots), my Phoenix climbs at about 1300-1400 fpm
(the manual states 1300 fpm at MTOW - 1320 lbs). The propeller is
adjustable and currently set at a "cruise" angle. There is a lot of
"excess" power! Putting a 1000 lb sailplane behind it doubles the
weight, reducing the climb to about 600 fpm, still pretty good, and
better than we got from our 150hp Citabria.
The Rotax 912 is a pretty robust aircraft engine, so I don't think you
should dismiss it's longevity offhand. It does use water cooling, and
can descend more rapidly than the typical air-cooled engines used
towing. The Europeans like it a lot for a variety of reasons, one of
them being the tows are cheaper than a Pawnee style airplane.
On 1/20/2023 11:10 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
I don't think it's legal to operate commercially with a Light Sport
*Aircraft* I haven't heard of a Light Sport *Glider*. Likewise, I
don't know if a club's charging for tows is considered a "commercial"
operation. And, as we all know, commercial operations are not allowed
in Light Sport Aircraft.
Since an aircraft's ability to climb is a function of its *excess*
power, and given how light LSAs are, I'd think you'd use a major chunk
of your excess power to tow a glider. That would translate directly to
lower performance and higher wear and tear and at a far greater
proportion to the value of the aircraft than it would with a Pawnee.
If you're so altruistic that you want to give away the life of your
Phoenix then, by all means, go for it! But don't charge for the service. >>
Dan
5J
On 1/20/23 07:50, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 1/20/2023 5:55 AM, [email protected] wrote:
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 7:04:24 PM UTC-5, R wrote:
My understanding is Experimental Aircraft are not authorized to towThe Phoenix is a LSA category airplane, towing with experimental is
anything, at anytime in the United States.
I believe the Phoenix is experimental.
R
allowed only with approval from the FSDO. The question that I have
is the LSA approved to tow without the FSDO specific aircraft
approval ? R, you and I both tow, we understand the need for horses
and performance. Clubs and commercial operators would be hard
pressed to make the LSA Motorglider a viable replacement for the
Pawnee, or the 182, both which are good workhorses and tow planes.
Having been in situations where Pawnee horsepower saved my life and
I am sure you have had situations down south that made you feel much
safer with that extra hp. How would you like to be towing with a LSA
motorglider and some glider pilot makes that deadly mistake of
kiting down low, wouldn't take much to ruin your day, and it would
happen very fast. See you next week. OBTP
The PHoenix is an LSA category GLIDER, not an airplane. I don't know
if that makes a difference to the discussion.
Which is safer: Making 1300 tows a year in a Pawnee, or 100 tows a
year in an LSA aircraft?
From the FAAWell I guess that pretty much covers the LAS as a replacement for the Pawnee! OBTP
These aircraft may not be operated for compensation or hire except to
tow a light-sport glider or an unpowered ultralight vehicle in
accordance with 14 CFR § 91.309 or to conduct flight training.
So, take it up with the FAA if you want to tow with a light sport
aircraft in the US.
Dan
5J
On 1/21/23 04:52, Mike the Strike wrote:
It is sold in the USA as a light-sport, the only barrier to its glider towing is legislative.
From the FAA
These aircraft may not be operated for compensation or hire except to
tow a light-sport glider or an unpowered ultralight vehicle in
accordance with 14 CFR § 91.309 or to conduct flight training.
So, take it up with the FAA if you want to tow with a light sport
aircraft in the US.
Dan
5J
On 1/21/23 04:52, Mike the Strike wrote:
It is sold in the USA as a light-sport, the only barrier to its glider towing is legislative.
On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 1:08:39 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
From the FAA
These aircraft may not be operated for compensation or hire except to
tow a light-sport glider or an unpowered ultralight vehicle in
accordance with 14 CFR § 91.309 or to conduct flight training.
So, take it up with the FAA if you want to tow with a light sport
aircraft in the US.
Dan
5J
On 1/21/23 04:52, Mike the Strike wrote:
It is sold in the USA as a light-sport, the only barrier to its glider towing is legislative.
Dan, did you get that from someone at the FAA? Name and office via pvt email please?
Please re-read 91.317, I did not see where it restricted the glider in tow to a Light Sport Glider. It just says "glider or an unpowered ultralight vehicle".
I remember something like you said, from years ago, but I have been searching the web and my notes this week and cannot find a printed reference.
I do understand that the issue with the EuroFox used in Europe, sold under the name of AeroTrek in the US, does not have an FAA Approved tow mechanism.
Bill
PM sent.
Dan
5J
On 1/21/23 15:06, Bill Tisdale wrote:
On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 1:08:39 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
From the FAA
These aircraft may not be operated for compensation or hire except to
tow a light-sport glider or an unpowered ultralight vehicle in
accordance with 14 CFR § 91.309 or to conduct flight training.
So, take it up with the FAA if you want to tow with a light sport
aircraft in the US.
Dan
5J
On 1/21/23 04:52, Mike the Strike wrote:
It is sold in the USA as a light-sport, the only barrier to its glider towing is legislative.
Dan, did you get that from someone at the FAA? Name and office via pvt email please?
Please re-read 91.317, I did not see where it restricted the glider in tow to a Light Sport Glider. It just says "glider or an unpowered ultralight vehicle".
I remember something like you said, from years ago, but I have been searching the web and my notes this week and cannot find a printed reference.
I do understand that the issue with the EuroFox used in Europe, sold under the name of AeroTrek in the US, does not have an FAA Approved tow mechanism.
Bill
PM sent.
Dan
5J
On 1/21/23 15:06, Bill Tisdale wrote:
On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 1:08:39 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
From the FAA
These aircraft may not be operated for compensation or hire except to
tow a light-sport glider or an unpowered ultralight vehicle in
accordance with 14 CFR § 91.309 or to conduct flight training.
So, take it up with the FAA if you want to tow with a light sport
aircraft in the US.
Dan
5J
On 1/21/23 04:52, Mike the Strike wrote:
It is sold in the USA as a light-sport, the only barrier to its glider towing is legislative.
Dan, did you get that from someone at the FAA? Name and office via pvt email please?
Please re-read 91.317, I did not see where it restricted the glider in tow to a Light Sport Glider. It just says "glider or an unpowered ultralight vehicle".
I remember something like you said, from years ago, but I have been searching the web and my notes this week and cannot find a printed reference.
I do understand that the issue with the EuroFox used in Europe, sold under the name of AeroTrek in the US, does not have an FAA Approved tow mechanism.
Bill
On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 5:45:28 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:In Denmark it is werry common to tow with at LSA. our nabo club use a Dynamic and i my club we tow with our Rotax falke with the Rotas 912 engine, In Nordic gliding there are several articles obout towing with LSA and TMG , Red this link to the
PM sent.
Dan
5J
On 1/21/23 15:06, Bill Tisdale wrote:
On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 1:08:39 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
From the FAA
These aircraft may not be operated for compensation or hire except to >> tow a light-sport glider or an unpowered ultralight vehicle in
accordance with 14 CFR § 91.309 or to conduct flight training.
So, take it up with the FAA if you want to tow with a light sport
aircraft in the US.
Dan
5J
On 1/21/23 04:52, Mike the Strike wrote:
It is sold in the USA as a light-sport, the only barrier to its glider towing is legislative.
Dan, did you get that from someone at the FAA? Name and office via pvt email please?
Please re-read 91.317, I did not see where it restricted the glider in tow to a Light Sport Glider. It just says "glider or an unpowered ultralight vehicle".
I remember something like you said, from years ago, but I have been searching the web and my notes this week and cannot find a printed reference.
I do understand that the issue with the EuroFox used in Europe, sold under the name of AeroTrek in the US, does not have an FAA Approved tow mechanism.
Thanks Dan, I got it, my reply to you got the obvious bounce.Bill
See you in Reno!
Bill
If you are towing full-sized gliders (meaning other than hang gliders or light sport) with an LSA in the United States or know of someone who is, please reply. Otherwise, may I politely and respectfully ask for silence?who has solved this problem and is towing with an LSA.
I have been in recent conversations about how FAA regulations (or their implementation) may or may not make it impossible to legally tow a full-sized glider with a light sport aircraft. I am looking for evidence to the contrary in the form of someone
If the reality is that this has never been accomplished, there's no need to discuss the regulations, except to seek regulatory changes.
Many thanks,
...david
søndag den 22. januar 2023 kl. 03.31.44 UTC+1 skrev [email protected]:articels. It is in both Danish and English
On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 5:45:28 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:In Denmark it is werry common to tow with at LSA. our nabo club use a Dynamic and i my club we tow with our Rotax falke with the Rotas 912 engine, In Nordic gliding there are several articles obout towing with LSA and TMG , Red this link to the
PM sent.Thanks Dan, I got it, my reply to you got the obvious bounce.
Dan
5J
On 1/21/23 15:06, Bill Tisdale wrote:
On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 1:08:39 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote: >>>>> From the FAA
These aircraft may not be operated for compensation or hire except to >>>>> tow a light-sport glider or an unpowered ultralight vehicle in
accordance with 14 CFR § 91.309 or to conduct flight training.
So, take it up with the FAA if you want to tow with a light sport
aircraft in the US.
Dan
5J
On 1/21/23 04:52, Mike the Strike wrote:
It is sold in the USA as a light-sport, the only barrier to its glider towing is legislative.
Dan, did you get that from someone at the FAA? Name and office via pvt email please?
Please re-read 91.317, I did not see where it restricted the glider in tow to a Light Sport Glider. It just says "glider or an unpowered ultralight vehicle".
I remember something like you said, from years ago, but I have been searching the web and my notes this week and cannot find a printed reference.
I do understand that the issue with the EuroFox used in Europe, sold under the name of AeroTrek in the US, does not have an FAA Approved tow mechanism.
Bill
See you in Reno!
Bill
https://nordicgliding.com/erfaringer-dynamic-slaeb-i-sandefjord-seilflyklubb/
I think that, in the right location, towing with an LSA would be very good. In the US, we...
can not do that and charge for the tow.
Also, in New Mexico, our field elevation is 6,200' (1,890 m) MSL and, with a 100 hp engine
a turbocharger would likely be needed. Also we must consider winds. I have towed gliders
using a Pawnee with 27 kts cross wind and I would not like to do that in such a lightly
loaded aircraft as an LSA.
Dan
5J
I would not be the queue waiting for a tow, even though I think it'd be
a short one! Would a 15 kt cross wind performance be satisfactory most
of the time at Moriarty?
On 1/22/2023 10:40 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
I think that, in the right location, towing with an LSA would be very...
good. In the US, we can not do that and charge for the tow.
Also, in New Mexico, our field elevation is 6,200' (1,890 m) MSL and,
with a 100 hp engine a turbocharger would likely be needed. Also we
must consider winds. I have towed gliders using a Pawnee with 27 kts
cross wind and I would not like to do that in such a lightly loaded
aircraft as an LSA.
Dan
5J
For what it is worth, one of the tow planes in the Condor glider flight simulation is an LSA, which suggests towing with an LSA may be legal in Europe. The aircraft is a WT9 Dynamic. https://lsa.aerospool.sk
On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 3:58:24 AM UTC-5, krasw wrote:allow LSA tow planes. Some regulations are already in place. Per § 91.327, the two things you can do for hire in an LSA (in the USA) are instruct and tow gliders. What is missing is an FAA approved tow release for LSA.
ULs are not as robust or powerful as Pawnee, which is still the gold standard for tow plane, but they are considered as a good enough compromise for many uses, towing included.So it would appear that nobody tows gliders with LSA in the USA. If we believe that the high cost of operations is a significant contributor to the decline of gliding in the USA, then perhaps US pilots should be advocating for regulatory changes to
I asked the original question in this thread after reading a review of the 140 hp Eurofox 915iS flight tested as a tow plane. The article appears in the current edition of the BGA magazine Sailplane & Gliding. The last line of the review is "...inconclusion I have to say (somewhat sadly, as I have more time in Pawnees than any other type) that all legacy tugs are now obsolete.”
The claims include much lower fuel consumption, faster return from tow (liquid cooled heads prevent shock cooling), and quieter operation (four blade prop). The folding wings could be useful for some.for the Aerotrek in the USA.
Elsewhere I found that the Eurofox and the Kitfox are both derived from the Avid Flyer, but independently. The Eurofox is sold in the USA as Aerotrek. In Britain and Europe you can buy the Eurofox already equipped for towing, but that is not an option
Cheers,
...david
ULs are not as robust or powerful as Pawnee, which is still the gold standard for tow plane, but they are considered as a good enough compromise for many uses, towing included.
On Tuesday, 24 January 2023 at 16:25:59 UTC+2, [email protected] wrote:allow LSA tow planes. Some regulations are already in place. Per § 91.327, the two things you can do for hire in an LSA (in the USA) are instruct and tow gliders. What is missing is an FAA approved tow release for LSA.
On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 3:58:24 AM UTC-5, krasw wrote:
ULs are not as robust or powerful as Pawnee, which is still the gold standard for tow plane, but they are considered as a good enough compromise for many uses, towing included.So it would appear that nobody tows gliders with LSA in the USA. If we believe that the high cost of operations is a significant contributor to the decline of gliding in the USA, then perhaps US pilots should be advocating for regulatory changes to
conclusion I have to say (somewhat sadly, as I have more time in Pawnees than any other type) that all legacy tugs are now obsolete.”
I asked the original question in this thread after reading a review of the 140 hp Eurofox 915iS flight tested as a tow plane. The article appears in the current edition of the BGA magazine Sailplane & Gliding. The last line of the review is "...in
for the Aerotrek in the USA.
The claims include much lower fuel consumption, faster return from tow (liquid cooled heads prevent shock cooling), and quieter operation (four blade prop). The folding wings could be useful for some.
Elsewhere I found that the Eurofox and the Kitfox are both derived from the Avid Flyer, but independently. The Eurofox is sold in the USA as Aerotrek. In Britain and Europe you can buy the Eurofox already equipped for towing, but that is not an option
ships on hot days. Our biggest doubt re the 915iS is its performance in hot days: if this is relevant to you, we will surely have 40+ degrees C days in a few months, and will report the results.
Cheers,
...david
Our club in Israel just received our 915iS Eurofox, and we are waiting for the paperwork (CofA) to test it. We have been using two EuroFoxes (one with 912iS and one with 912ULS engine) until now. Performance is adequate, though marginal with the big
If considering the regulations, do look at the weak-link requirements! The max on the Eurofox is not compatible with the min in the FAR! (for all but the lightest gliders)
Along the way, I think we got the FAA to approve the type (915iS) in the US (helped with the local CAA).
Soft landings,
Uri
Well... I took a look at the Phoenix website and found this:allow LSA tow planes. Some regulations are already in place. Per § 91.327, the two things you can do for hire in an LSA (in the USA) are instruct and tow gliders. What is missing is an FAA approved tow release for LSA.
Equipped with the Rotax 912ULS, the Phoenix makes a great towplane, and
is an option from the factory.
I found no mention of a tow release, however.
And, since the Rotax 915 iS is mentioned below, please note that the 912
ULS in the Phoenix delivers 100 hp at sea level whereas the 915 iS is
rated at 141 hp at sea level. If I was going to try towing with such a
light aircraft as a Phoenix or Eurofox, I'd want the 915 iS engine which
is not currently offered on the Phoenix website.
Dan
5J
On 1/24/23 07:38, Uri Savoray wrote:
On Tuesday, 24 January 2023 at 16:25:59 UTC+2, [email protected] wrote:
On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 3:58:24 AM UTC-5, krasw wrote:
ULs are not as robust or powerful as Pawnee, which is still the gold standard for tow plane, but they are considered as a good enough compromise for many uses, towing included.So it would appear that nobody tows gliders with LSA in the USA. If we believe that the high cost of operations is a significant contributor to the decline of gliding in the USA, then perhaps US pilots should be advocating for regulatory changes to
conclusion I have to say (somewhat sadly, as I have more time in Pawnees than any other type) that all legacy tugs are now obsolete.”
I asked the original question in this thread after reading a review of the 140 hp Eurofox 915iS flight tested as a tow plane. The article appears in the current edition of the BGA magazine Sailplane & Gliding. The last line of the review is "...in
option for the Aerotrek in the USA.
The claims include much lower fuel consumption, faster return from tow (liquid cooled heads prevent shock cooling), and quieter operation (four blade prop). The folding wings could be useful for some.
Elsewhere I found that the Eurofox and the Kitfox are both derived from the Avid Flyer, but independently. The Eurofox is sold in the USA as Aerotrek. In Britain and Europe you can buy the Eurofox already equipped for towing, but that is not an
ships on hot days. Our biggest doubt re the 915iS is its performance in hot days: if this is relevant to you, we will surely have 40+ degrees C days in a few months, and will report the results.
Cheers,
...david
Our club in Israel just received our 915iS Eurofox, and we are waiting for the paperwork (CofA) to test it. We have been using two EuroFoxes (one with 912iS and one with 912ULS engine) until now. Performance is adequate, though marginal with the big
If considering the regulations, do look at the weak-link requirements! The max on the Eurofox is not compatible with the min in the FAR! (for all but the lightest gliders)
Along the way, I think we got the FAA to approve the type (915iS) in the US (helped with the local CAA).
Soft landings,
Uri
My Phoenix has the Tost towhook installed (2014), but I don't know what is supplied since the new owner acquired the company.
On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 9:30:33 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:to allow LSA tow planes. Some regulations are already in place. Per § 91.327, the two things you can do for hire in an LSA (in the USA) are instruct and tow gliders. What is missing is an FAA approved tow release for LSA.
Well... I took a look at the Phoenix website and found this:
Equipped with the Rotax 912ULS, the Phoenix makes a great towplane, and
is an option from the factory.
I found no mention of a tow release, however.
And, since the Rotax 915 iS is mentioned below, please note that the 912 ULS in the Phoenix delivers 100 hp at sea level whereas the 915 iS is rated at 141 hp at sea level. If I was going to try towing with such a light aircraft as a Phoenix or Eurofox, I'd want the 915 iS engine which is not currently offered on the Phoenix website.
Dan
5J
On 1/24/23 07:38, Uri Savoray wrote:
On Tuesday, 24 January 2023 at 16:25:59 UTC+2, [email protected] wrote:
On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 3:58:24 AM UTC-5, krasw wrote:
ULs are not as robust or powerful as Pawnee, which is still the gold standard for tow plane, but they are considered as a good enough compromise for many uses, towing included.So it would appear that nobody tows gliders with LSA in the USA. If we believe that the high cost of operations is a significant contributor to the decline of gliding in the USA, then perhaps US pilots should be advocating for regulatory changes
conclusion I have to say (somewhat sadly, as I have more time in Pawnees than any other type) that all legacy tugs are now obsolete.”
I asked the original question in this thread after reading a review of the 140 hp Eurofox 915iS flight tested as a tow plane. The article appears in the current edition of the BGA magazine Sailplane & Gliding. The last line of the review is "...in
option for the Aerotrek in the USA.
The claims include much lower fuel consumption, faster return from tow (liquid cooled heads prevent shock cooling), and quieter operation (four blade prop). The folding wings could be useful for some.
Elsewhere I found that the Eurofox and the Kitfox are both derived from the Avid Flyer, but independently. The Eurofox is sold in the USA as Aerotrek. In Britain and Europe you can buy the Eurofox already equipped for towing, but that is not an
big ships on hot days. Our biggest doubt re the 915iS is its performance in hot days: if this is relevant to you, we will surely have 40+ degrees C days in a few months, and will report the results.
Cheers,
...david
Our club in Israel just received our 915iS Eurofox, and we are waiting for the paperwork (CofA) to test it. We have been using two EuroFoxes (one with 912iS and one with 912ULS engine) until now. Performance is adequate, though marginal with the
Eric, the reason for the tow hook on your Phoenix is so that you can pull it backwards into the hangar with a golf cart. Old Bob, The PuristIf considering the regulations, do look at the weak-link requirements! The max on the Eurofox is not compatible with the min in the FAR! (for all but the lightest gliders)
My Phoenix has the Tost towhook installed (2014), but I don't know what is supplied since the new owner acquired the company.Along the way, I think we got the FAA to approve the type (915iS) in the US (helped with the local CAA).
Soft landings,
Uri
Interesting. Have you towed with it? Are there any procedures in the
POH? What about the FEDs?
Dan
5J
On 1/24/23 14:24, Eric Greenwell wrote:
My Phoenix has the Tost towhook installed (2014), but I don't know what is supplied since the new owner acquired the company.
On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 4:24:56 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:to allow LSA tow planes. Some regulations are already in place. Per § 91.327, the two things you can do for hire in an LSA (in the USA) are instruct and tow gliders. What is missing is an FAA approved tow release for LSA.
On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 9:30:33 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
Well... I took a look at the Phoenix website and found this:
Equipped with the Rotax 912ULS, the Phoenix makes a great towplane, and is an option from the factory.
I found no mention of a tow release, however.
And, since the Rotax 915 iS is mentioned below, please note that the 912 ULS in the Phoenix delivers 100 hp at sea level whereas the 915 iS is rated at 141 hp at sea level. If I was going to try towing with such a light aircraft as a Phoenix or Eurofox, I'd want the 915 iS engine which is not currently offered on the Phoenix website.
Dan
5J
On 1/24/23 07:38, Uri Savoray wrote:
On Tuesday, 24 January 2023 at 16:25:59 UTC+2, [email protected] wrote:
On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 3:58:24 AM UTC-5, krasw wrote:
ULs are not as robust or powerful as Pawnee, which is still the gold standard for tow plane, but they are considered as a good enough compromise for many uses, towing included.So it would appear that nobody tows gliders with LSA in the USA. If we believe that the high cost of operations is a significant contributor to the decline of gliding in the USA, then perhaps US pilots should be advocating for regulatory changes
in conclusion I have to say (somewhat sadly, as I have more time in Pawnees than any other type) that all legacy tugs are now obsolete.”
I asked the original question in this thread after reading a review of the 140 hp Eurofox 915iS flight tested as a tow plane. The article appears in the current edition of the BGA magazine Sailplane & Gliding. The last line of the review is "...
option for the Aerotrek in the USA.
The claims include much lower fuel consumption, faster return from tow (liquid cooled heads prevent shock cooling), and quieter operation (four blade prop). The folding wings could be useful for some.
Elsewhere I found that the Eurofox and the Kitfox are both derived from the Avid Flyer, but independently. The Eurofox is sold in the USA as Aerotrek. In Britain and Europe you can buy the Eurofox already equipped for towing, but that is not an
big ships on hot days. Our biggest doubt re the 915iS is its performance in hot days: if this is relevant to you, we will surely have 40+ degrees C days in a few months, and will report the results.
Cheers,
...david
Our club in Israel just received our 915iS Eurofox, and we are waiting for the paperwork (CofA) to test it. We have been using two EuroFoxes (one with 912iS and one with 912ULS engine) until now. Performance is adequate, though marginal with the
If considering the regulations, do look at the weak-link requirements! The max on the Eurofox is not compatible with the min in the FAR! (for all but the lightest gliders)
Eric, the reason for the tow hook on your Phoenix is so that you can pull it backwards into the hangar with a golf cart. Old Bob, The PuristMy Phoenix has the Tost towhook installed (2014), but I don't know what is supplied since the new owner acquired the company.Along the way, I think we got the FAA to approve the type (915iS) in the US (helped with the local CAA).
Soft landings,
Uri
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