Old Bob, The Purist has come up with my resolution for the new year. Resolution #1- Be kind to motor glider pilotsNo. In fact if you had posted that tomorrow, it would have been self violating. I'd suggest an alternative:
Resolution #2- They cannot help being motor glider pilots
Resolution #3- Give those guys something to shoot for during the Geritol Classic at SLGP
Does anyone really think that I can adhere to the first two resolutions? Old Bob, The Purist
Old Bob, The Purist has come up with my resolution for the new year. Resolution #1- Be kind to motor glider pilots
Resolution #2- They cannot help being motor glider pilots
Resolution #3- Give those guys something to shoot for during the Geritol Classic at SLGP
Does anyone really think that I can adhere to the first two resolutions? Old Bob, The Purist
On 12/30/2022 2:36 PM, [email protected] wrote:Eric, I just completed my last day of towing for 2022, I am happy to report that I surpassed the 1300 tow mark for the year and even more satisfied that I towed several new glider pilots on their first solo. The best part of the year was watching the
Old Bob, The Purist has come up with my resolution for the new year. Resolution #1- Be kind to motor glider pilots1) Be kind to all pilots, but especially tow pilots, as they are a critical part of the
Resolution #2- They cannot help being motor glider pilots
Resolution #3- Give those guys something to shoot for during the Geritol Classic at SLGP
Does anyone really think that I can adhere to the first two resolutions? Old Bob, The Purist
launching system for the majority of pilots.
2) Most towed pilots can not help being towed pilots; unfortunately, it takes a lot of
money to purchase one. Not really a resolution, though, is it?
3) What will you give the Seniors pilots to shoot for? Cash prizes, coolers full of beer,
premium ramp "Motorglider Only" tie-down spaces at Hibiscus?
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
Gentlemen,increase the number of gliders used by the club rivals almost any club in the US. He does this with money out of his pocket. We joke a lot about motorgliders, but I can assure you, all of this is in jest. So, my New Year resolution is to continue to rib
I do not post often to RAS by personal choice. I do read the summary each day. I would like everyone to know Bob Youngblood is a stand up person and his club has done a large amount for bringing new (younger) pilots to the community. His work to
Sincerely,+1
Rich Owen
Seminole-Lake Gliderport
Gentlemen,increase the number of gliders used by the club rivals almost any club in the US. He does this with money out of his pocket. We joke a lot about motorgliders, but I can assure you, all of this is in jest. So, my New Year resolution is to continue to rib
I do not post often to RAS by personal choice. I do read the summary each day. I would like everyone to know Bob Youngblood is a stand up person and his club has done a large amount for bringing new (younger) pilots to the community. His work to
Sincerely,
Rich Owen
Seminole-Lake Gliderport
On Sunday, January 1, 2023 at 11:38:48 AM UTC-8, Richard Owen wrote:increase the number of gliders used by the club rivals almost any club in the US. He does this with money out of his pocket. We joke a lot about motorgliders, but I can assure you, all of this is in jest. So, my New Year resolution is to continue to rib
Gentlemen,
I do not post often to RAS by personal choice. I do read the summary each day. I would like everyone to know Bob Youngblood is a stand up person and his club has done a large amount for bringing new (younger) pilots to the community. His work to
Maybe you should change your CN from 2G to DSM-5, it would be more identifiable and better reflect your state of mind. You seem to be extremely sensitive about my opinion on motorgliders, the only thing I can say is that we have a difference of opinion.Sincerely,COME ON, Rich! When I spoke the truth about who exactly owns Seminole you threatened to sue me - PottyMouth is just running off at the mouth with lies about us motorglider owners and you call it "banter!"
Rich Owen
Seminole-Lake Gliderport
Tom
On Friday, December 30, 2022 at 2:36:14 PM UTC-8, [email protected] wrote:Fitch, if I made ten cross country flights in a motorglider it would be 8 more than you have made in the last five years according to OLC, please correct me if I am wrong. Looks like the abject ignorance is part of your playbook.
Old Bob, The Purist has come up with my resolution for the new year. Resolution #1- Be kind to motor glider pilotsNo. In fact if you had posted that tomorrow, it would have been self violating. I'd suggest an alternative:
Resolution #2- They cannot help being motor glider pilots
Resolution #3- Give those guys something to shoot for during the Geritol Classic at SLGP
Does anyone really think that I can adhere to the first two resolutions? Old Bob, The Purist
Resolution #1: Get at least 10 cross country flights in a motorglider so you would have even the slightest idea what you are talking about.
Resolution #2: After accomplishing #1, come back and critique motorgliders based on some knowledge, rather than abject ignorance.
How do those sound? My bet is you will not accomplish either of those sets of resolutions.
Tom (2G),for a Private Initial course and a Commercial Add-on course cancelled their training with us based solely on the comments they read on Rec Aviation Soaring. That resulted in a loss of about $7,000 of revenue to the company. We did not advertise this fact
Since you have brought up my "threatening to sue you" twice in past posts, I would like to let everyone know the context. You made several claims about the owner of Seminole=Lake Gliderport and some of those were false. Two clients who were scheduled
Best Regards,
Rich Owen
Seminole=Lake Gliderport
Tom (2G),for a Private Initial course and a Commercial Add-on course cancelled their training with us based solely on the comments they read on Rec Aviation Soaring. That resulted in a loss of about $7,000 of revenue to the company. We did not advertise this fact
Since you have brought up my "threatening to sue you" twice in past posts, I would like to let everyone know the context. You made several claims about the owner of Seminole=Lake Gliderport and some of those were false. Two clients who were scheduled
Best Regards,
Rich Owen
Seminole=Lake Gliderport
On Monday, January 2, 2023 at 2:50:30 PM UTC-8, Richard Owen wrote:for a Private Initial course and a Commercial Add-on course cancelled their training with us based solely on the comments they read on Rec Aviation Soaring. That resulted in a loss of about $7,000 of revenue to the company. We did not advertise this fact
Tom (2G),
Since you have brought up my "threatening to sue you" twice in past posts, I would like to let everyone know the context. You made several claims about the owner of Seminole=Lake Gliderport and some of those were false. Two clients who were scheduled
questioned was a very small point immersed in the totality of the facts. So be it. Per our agreement, I will NOT discuss the details of this sordid affair - anyone with two ounces of brains (which leaves out PottyMouth) can find it on their own. But,Best Regards,Rich, don't blame me for people who questioned what was going on at Seminole in regards to the questionable purchase by a foreigner that had been CONVICTED of crimes and was being sought by international authorities. That is just a fact. The detail you
Rich Owen
Seminole=Lake Gliderport
TomDSM-5, you better go directly to the community mental health center and get medication, pretty soon you will be biting the props on your motorglider and unlike Amy the dog no one will come to your assistance. Your favorite purist glider pilot , OBTP.
On Saturday, December 31, 2022 at 11:52:12 AM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:and soaring for say 300 k and greater and then having to start the engine to return back to the departure point is a failure.
On Friday, December 30, 2022 at 2:36:14 PM UTC-8, [email protected] wrote:Fitch, if I made ten cross country flights in a motorglider it would be 8 more than you have made in the last five years according to OLC, please correct me if I am wrong. Looks like the abject ignorance is part of your playbook.
Old Bob, The Purist has come up with my resolution for the new year.No. In fact if you had posted that tomorrow, it would have been self violating. I'd suggest an alternative:
Resolution #1- Be kind to motor glider pilots
Resolution #2- They cannot help being motor glider pilots
Resolution #3- Give those guys something to shoot for during the Geritol Classic at SLGP
Does anyone really think that I can adhere to the first two resolutions? Old Bob, The Purist
Resolution #1: Get at least 10 cross country flights in a motorglider so you would have even the slightest idea what you are talking about.
Resolution #2: After accomplishing #1, come back and critique motorgliders based on some knowledge, rather than abject ignorance.
How do those sound? My bet is you will not accomplish either of those sets of resolutions.
If a soaring pilot was to take ten cross country flights in a pure glider vs a motorglider it would be much more challenging, in my way of thinking the pure glider is much more challenging and dangerous than any motorglider. Getting in a motorglider
I have no problem with self launch motorgliders, I might just own one someday, Eileen and I could roll out on our runway and takeoff without assistance. There is nothing that I could find fault with that type of flight. R does that and it isinteresting, scores his flights then calls me to rattle my chain, it is all in fun and games. You also are invited to Vero, you may leave a better person. Your favorite purist, Old Bob, The Purist
On 1/2/2023 12:07 PM, [email protected] wrote:and soaring for say 300 k and greater and then having to start the engine to return back to the departure point is a failure.
On Saturday, December 31, 2022 at 11:52:12 AM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:
On Friday, December 30, 2022 at 2:36:14 PM UTC-8, [email protected] wrote:Fitch, if I made ten cross country flights in a motorglider it would be 8 more than you have made in the last five years according to OLC, please correct me if I am wrong. Looks like the abject ignorance is part of your playbook.
Old Bob, The Purist has come up with my resolution for the new year.No. In fact if you had posted that tomorrow, it would have been self violating. I'd suggest an alternative:
Resolution #1- Be kind to motor glider pilots
Resolution #2- They cannot help being motor glider pilots
Resolution #3- Give those guys something to shoot for during the Geritol Classic at SLGP
Does anyone really think that I can adhere to the first two resolutions? Old Bob, The Purist
Resolution #1: Get at least 10 cross country flights in a motorglider so you would have even the slightest idea what you are talking about.
Resolution #2: After accomplishing #1, come back and critique motorgliders based on some knowledge, rather than abject ignorance.
How do those sound? My bet is you will not accomplish either of those sets of resolutions.
If a soaring pilot was to take ten cross country flights in a pure glider vs a motorglider it would be much more challenging, in my way of thinking the pure glider is much more challenging and dangerous than any motorglider. Getting in a motorglider
interesting, scores his flights then calls me to rattle my chain, it is all in fun and games. You also are invited to Vero, you may leave a better person. Your favorite purist, Old Bob, The PuristI have no problem with self launch motorgliders, I might just own one someday, Eileen and I could roll out on our runway and takeoff without assistance. There is nothing that I could find fault with that type of flight. R does that and it is
A lot to unpack. Starting with the safety part:
" in my way of thinking the pure glider is much more challenging and dangerous than any
motorglider."
I don't know how Old Bod decided a pure glider is much more dangerous than a motorglider;
in fact, I (and most MG pilots) think the towed glider is safer, because self-launching in
a motorglider is more complicated the taking a tow. And, unlike Old Bob, most of us have
thousands of hours in motorized AND towed gliders.
A towed glider pilot just gets in the tow line, waits his turn, follows the towplane, and
gets off in a thermal. His total exposure to the launch system is about 5 minutes. The MG
pilot has much more to do: he has to ensure the motor system is maintained and working
properly during the entire season, taxi safely to the launch point, determine it's safe to
take off, fly the glider and manage the engine, and finally do the shut-down and retraction.
A successful self-retrieve avoids the potential for damage or injury during an off-airport
landing, but managing the engine start exposes the pilot to potential mistakes and
distractions the towed glider pilot doesn't have. A common one is trying too long to save
the flight, then failing the restart and subsequent landing because there isn't enough
altitude left.
Please, please, anyone thinking of getting a motorglider DO NOT listen to Old Bob, because
he is not experienced enough with self-launchers give your good guidance, instead, read my
"A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" (link in the signature line) and talk to
actual motorglider pilots.
And now the "challenge" part: Old Bob should be able to understand that it's not the
glider type that determines the challenge, it's the pilot that determines the challenge.
Old Bob picks "soaring home" for his challenge, and his task is selected to provide the
amount of difficulty he wants. But, that's just Old Bob's choice, and it's not what makes
a pilot a Purist! Other pilots pick different challenges, like contests, record flying,
OLC points, or just getting as much out of a day as is possible. These challenges markedly
increase the chances of needing a retrieve, but they are just as "Purist" as the challenge
Old Bob has selected.
So remember, motorglider pilots get a motorglider for convenience and accept the increased
hazard they present. They get one because it provides more flights in more places, more
challenges than they could get with a towed glider. I hope Old Bob and Eileen get one
ASAP, so they can have even more fun, more adventures than they have now.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
On 1/2/2023 12:07 PM, [email protected] wrote:and soaring for say 300 k and greater and then having to start the engine to return back to the departure point is a failure.
On Saturday, December 31, 2022 at 11:52:12 AM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:
On Friday, December 30, 2022 at 2:36:14 PM UTC-8, [email protected] wrote:Fitch, if I made ten cross country flights in a motorglider it would be 8 more than you have made in the last five years according to OLC, please correct me if I am wrong. Looks like the abject ignorance is part of your playbook.
Old Bob, The Purist has come up with my resolution for the new year.No. In fact if you had posted that tomorrow, it would have been self violating. I'd suggest an alternative:
Resolution #1- Be kind to motor glider pilots
Resolution #2- They cannot help being motor glider pilots
Resolution #3- Give those guys something to shoot for during the Geritol Classic at SLGP
Does anyone really think that I can adhere to the first two resolutions? Old Bob, The Purist
Resolution #1: Get at least 10 cross country flights in a motorglider so you would have even the slightest idea what you are talking about.
Resolution #2: After accomplishing #1, come back and critique motorgliders based on some knowledge, rather than abject ignorance.
How do those sound? My bet is you will not accomplish either of those sets of resolutions.
If a soaring pilot was to take ten cross country flights in a pure glider vs a motorglider it would be much more challenging, in my way of thinking the pure glider is much more challenging and dangerous than any motorglider. Getting in a motorglider
interesting, scores his flights then calls me to rattle my chain, it is all in fun and games. You also are invited to Vero, you may leave a better person. Your favorite purist, Old Bob, The PuristI have no problem with self launch motorgliders, I might just own one someday, Eileen and I could roll out on our runway and takeoff without assistance. There is nothing that I could find fault with that type of flight. R does that and it is
A lot to unpack. Starting with the safety part:Good morning Eric hope all is well and calm out in that part of the country, here in Florida things are great and the weather is nice. Now about your comment referencing managing a motor vs managing a tow, I cannot believe that you wrote that, you should
" in my way of thinking the pure glider is much more challenging and dangerous than any
motorglider."
I don't know how Old Bod decided a pure glider is much more dangerous than a motorglider;
in fact, I (and most MG pilots) think the towed glider is safer, because self-launching in
a motorglider is more complicated the taking a tow. And, unlike Old Bob, most of us have
thousands of hours in motorized AND towed gliders.
A towed glider pilot just gets in the tow line, waits his turn, follows the towplane, and
gets off in a thermal. His total exposure to the launch system is about 5 minutes. The MG
pilot has much more to do: he has to ensure the motor system is maintained and working
properly during the entire season, taxi safely to the launch point, determine it's safe to
take off, fly the glider and manage the engine, and finally do the shut-down and retraction.
A successful self-retrieve avoids the potential for damage or injury during an off-airport
landing, but managing the engine start exposes the pilot to potential mistakes and
distractions the towed glider pilot doesn't have. A common one is trying too long to save
the flight, then failing the restart and subsequent landing because there isn't enough
altitude left.
Please, please, anyone thinking of getting a motorglider DO NOT listen to Old Bob, because
he is not experienced enough with self-launchers give your good guidance, instead, read my
"A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" (link in the signature line) and talk to
actual motorglider pilots.
And now the "challenge" part: Old Bob should be able to understand that it's not the
glider type that determines the challenge, it's the pilot that determines the challenge.
Old Bob picks "soaring home" for his challenge, and his task is selected to provide the
amount of difficulty he wants. But, that's just Old Bob's choice, and it's not what makes
a pilot a Purist! Other pilots pick different challenges, like contests, record flying,
OLC points, or just getting as much out of a day as is possible. These challenges markedly
increase the chances of needing a retrieve, but they are just as "Purist" as the challenge
Old Bob has selected.
So remember, motorglider pilots get a motorglider for convenience and accept the increased
hazard they present. They get one because it provides more flights in more places, more
challenges than they could get with a towed glider. I hope Old Bob and Eileen get one
ASAP, so they can have even more fun, more adventures than they have now.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 6:22:55 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:and soaring for say 300 k and greater and then having to start the engine to return back to the departure point is a failure.
On 1/2/2023 12:07 PM, [email protected] wrote:
On Saturday, December 31, 2022 at 11:52:12 AM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:
On Friday, December 30, 2022 at 2:36:14 PM UTC-8, [email protected] wrote:Fitch, if I made ten cross country flights in a motorglider it would be 8 more than you have made in the last five years according to OLC, please correct me if I am wrong. Looks like the abject ignorance is part of your playbook.
Old Bob, The Purist has come up with my resolution for the new year. >>>>> Resolution #1- Be kind to motor glider pilotsNo. In fact if you had posted that tomorrow, it would have been self violating. I'd suggest an alternative:
Resolution #2- They cannot help being motor glider pilots
Resolution #3- Give those guys something to shoot for during the Geritol Classic at SLGP
Does anyone really think that I can adhere to the first two resolutions? Old Bob, The Purist
Resolution #1: Get at least 10 cross country flights in a motorglider so you would have even the slightest idea what you are talking about.
Resolution #2: After accomplishing #1, come back and critique motorgliders based on some knowledge, rather than abject ignorance.
How do those sound? My bet is you will not accomplish either of those sets of resolutions.
If a soaring pilot was to take ten cross country flights in a pure glider vs a motorglider it would be much more challenging, in my way of thinking the pure glider is much more challenging and dangerous than any motorglider. Getting in a motorglider
interesting, scores his flights then calls me to rattle my chain, it is all in fun and games. You also are invited to Vero, you may leave a better person. Your favorite purist, Old Bob, The PuristI have no problem with self launch motorgliders, I might just own one someday, Eileen and I could roll out on our runway and takeoff without assistance. There is nothing that I could find fault with that type of flight. R does that and it is
A lot to unpack. Starting with the safety part:
" in my way of thinking the pure glider is much more challenging and dangerous than any
motorglider."
I don't know how Old Bod decided a pure glider is much more dangerous than a motorglider;
in fact, I (and most MG pilots) think the towed glider is safer, because self-launching in
a motorglider is more complicated the taking a tow. And, unlike Old Bob, most of us have
thousands of hours in motorized AND towed gliders.
A towed glider pilot just gets in the tow line, waits his turn, follows the towplane, and
gets off in a thermal. His total exposure to the launch system is about 5 minutes. The MG
pilot has much more to do: he has to ensure the motor system is maintained and working
properly during the entire season, taxi safely to the launch point, determine it's safe to
take off, fly the glider and manage the engine, and finally do the shut-down and retraction.
A successful self-retrieve avoids the potential for damage or injury during an off-airport
landing, but managing the engine start exposes the pilot to potential mistakes and
distractions the towed glider pilot doesn't have. A common one is trying too long to save
the flight, then failing the restart and subsequent landing because there isn't enough
altitude left.
Please, please, anyone thinking of getting a motorglider DO NOT listen to Old Bob, because
he is not experienced enough with self-launchers give your good guidance, instead, read my
"A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" (link in the signature line) and talk to
actual motorglider pilots.
And now the "challenge" part: Old Bob should be able to understand that it's not the
glider type that determines the challenge, it's the pilot that determines the challenge.
Old Bob picks "soaring home" for his challenge, and his task is selected to provide the
amount of difficulty he wants. But, that's just Old Bob's choice, and it's not what makes
a pilot a Purist! Other pilots pick different challenges, like contests, record flying,
OLC points, or just getting as much out of a day as is possible. These challenges markedly
increase the chances of needing a retrieve, but they are just as "Purist" as the challenge
Old Bob has selected.
So remember, motorglider pilots get a motorglider for convenience and accept the increased
hazard they present. They get one because it provides more flights in more places, more
challenges than they could get with a towed glider. I hope Old Bob and Eileen get one
ASAP, so they can have even more fun, more adventures than they have now.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
On 1/6/2023 4:47 AM, [email protected] wrote:motorglider and soaring for say 300 k and greater and then having to start the engine to return back to the departure point is a failure.
On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 6:22:55 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 1/2/2023 12:07 PM, [email protected] wrote:
On Saturday, December 31, 2022 at 11:52:12 AM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:
On Friday, December 30, 2022 at 2:36:14 PM UTC-8, [email protected] wrote:Fitch, if I made ten cross country flights in a motorglider it would be 8 more than you have made in the last five years according to OLC, please correct me if I am wrong. Looks like the abject ignorance is part of your playbook.
Old Bob, The Purist has come up with my resolution for the new year. >>>>> Resolution #1- Be kind to motor glider pilotsNo. In fact if you had posted that tomorrow, it would have been self violating. I'd suggest an alternative:
Resolution #2- They cannot help being motor glider pilots
Resolution #3- Give those guys something to shoot for during the Geritol Classic at SLGP
Does anyone really think that I can adhere to the first two resolutions? Old Bob, The Purist
Resolution #1: Get at least 10 cross country flights in a motorglider so you would have even the slightest idea what you are talking about.
Resolution #2: After accomplishing #1, come back and critique motorgliders based on some knowledge, rather than abject ignorance.
How do those sound? My bet is you will not accomplish either of those sets of resolutions.
If a soaring pilot was to take ten cross country flights in a pure glider vs a motorglider it would be much more challenging, in my way of thinking the pure glider is much more challenging and dangerous than any motorglider. Getting in a
interesting, scores his flights then calls me to rattle my chain, it is all in fun and games. You also are invited to Vero, you may leave a better person. Your favorite purist, Old Bob, The PuristI have no problem with self launch motorgliders, I might just own one someday, Eileen and I could roll out on our runway and takeoff without assistance. There is nothing that I could find fault with that type of flight. R does that and it is
Eric, I could be mistaken, yet that hardly ever happens, I do not need an endorsement to fly a motorglider, I flew motorgliders prior to the endorsement requirements. There is a chance that the insurance would require one, but the FAA requirement isNow about your comment referencing managing a motor vs managing a tow, I cannot believeA lot to unpack. Starting with the safety part:
" in my way of thinking the pure glider is much more challenging and dangerous than any
motorglider."
I don't know how Old Bod decided a pure glider is much more dangerous than a motorglider;
in fact, I (and most MG pilots) think the towed glider is safer, because self-launching in
a motorglider is more complicated the taking a tow. And, unlike Old Bob, most of us have
thousands of hours in motorized AND towed gliders.
A towed glider pilot just gets in the tow line, waits his turn, follows the towplane, and
gets off in a thermal. His total exposure to the launch system is about 5 minutes. The MG
pilot has much more to do: he has to ensure the motor system is maintained and working
properly during the entire season, taxi safely to the launch point, determine it's safe to
take off, fly the glider and manage the engine, and finally do the shut-down and retraction.
A successful self-retrieve avoids the potential for damage or injury during an off-airport
landing, but managing the engine start exposes the pilot to potential mistakes and
distractions the towed glider pilot doesn't have. A common one is trying too long to save
the flight, then failing the restart and subsequent landing because there isn't enough
altitude left.
Please, please, anyone thinking of getting a motorglider DO NOT listen to Old Bob, because
he is not experienced enough with self-launchers give your good guidance, instead, read my
"A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" (link in the signature line) and talk to
actual motorglider pilots.
And now the "challenge" part: Old Bob should be able to understand that it's not the
glider type that determines the challenge, it's the pilot that determines the challenge.
Old Bob picks "soaring home" for his challenge, and his task is selected to provide the
amount of difficulty he wants. But, that's just Old Bob's choice, and it's not what makes
a pilot a Purist! Other pilots pick different challenges, like contests, record flying,
OLC points, or just getting as much out of a day as is possible. These challenges markedly
increase the chances of needing a retrieve, but they are just as "Purist" as the challenge
Old Bob has selected.
So remember, motorglider pilots get a motorglider for convenience and accept the increased
hazard they present. They get one because it provides more flights in more places, more
challenges than they could get with a towed glider. I hope Old Bob and Eileen get one
ASAP, so they can have even more fun, more adventures than they have now. >> --
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
that you wrote that, you should re evaluate that scenario,
Perhaps your aren't paying attention to the situation: you are trying to explain towed vs
self-launch to someone that has made 2000+ towed launches and 800+ self-launches, while
you have made no self-launches.
five minutes on tow is certainly more difficult than monitoring an engine. There is much more to it than "monitoring an engine". Here's an important difference: a
self-launcher under power is not the same as a glider being towed. The mast gives it a
very high thrust line, requiring back stick from normal gliding flight, and a nose high
attitude because it's climbing under it's own power. A power loss, even just the power
reduction to idle after entering lift, requires a significant change in attitude - and
then there's the retraction procedure while trying to thermal without endangering yourself
or anyone else. When towed, a glider is in nearly the same attitude it would be in free
flight, and the transition to free flight takes just a few seconds after the tow rope is
released.
And, as a tow pilot, you really should understand you are doing far more than "monitoring
the engine" while you are towing: you are the one doing the "seeing and voiding", and
preparing for emergencies at every point in the tow. The towed glider pilot is basically
just following the tow plane, but self-launch pilot has all those responsibilities you
have as a tow pilot.
Haven't we had this conversation already? It sure sounds familiar as I write it.
I strongly recommend you get your self-launch endorsement ASAP, so you have a better
understanding of self-launchers, and be more likely to aid (instead of unintentionally
mislead) pilots interested in them. Get it in a real self-launcher, like an ASK21Mi, or
ASG32Mi, and not a touring motorglider. Here's a link to the Auxiliary-powered Sailplane
Associates training page, where you will find a list of motorglider instructors;
unfortunately, very few have access to an ASK21Mi or equivalent.
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/licensing-and-training
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 1:11:25 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:motorglider and soaring for say 300 k and greater and then having to start the engine to return back to the departure point is a failure.
On 1/6/2023 4:47 AM, [email protected] wrote:
On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 6:22:55 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote: >>>> On 1/2/2023 12:07 PM, [email protected] wrote:
On Saturday, December 31, 2022 at 11:52:12 AM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:
On Friday, December 30, 2022 at 2:36:14 PM UTC-8, [email protected] wrote:Fitch, if I made ten cross country flights in a motorglider it would be 8 more than you have made in the last five years according to OLC, please correct me if I am wrong. Looks like the abject ignorance is part of your playbook.
Old Bob, The Purist has come up with my resolution for the new year. >>>>>>> Resolution #1- Be kind to motor glider pilotsNo. In fact if you had posted that tomorrow, it would have been self violating. I'd suggest an alternative:
Resolution #2- They cannot help being motor glider pilots
Resolution #3- Give those guys something to shoot for during the Geritol Classic at SLGP
Does anyone really think that I can adhere to the first two resolutions? Old Bob, The Purist
Resolution #1: Get at least 10 cross country flights in a motorglider so you would have even the slightest idea what you are talking about.
Resolution #2: After accomplishing #1, come back and critique motorgliders based on some knowledge, rather than abject ignorance.
How do those sound? My bet is you will not accomplish either of those sets of resolutions.
If a soaring pilot was to take ten cross country flights in a pure glider vs a motorglider it would be much more challenging, in my way of thinking the pure glider is much more challenging and dangerous than any motorglider. Getting in a
interesting, scores his flights then calls me to rattle my chain, it is all in fun and games. You also are invited to Vero, you may leave a better person. Your favorite purist, Old Bob, The PuristI have no problem with self launch motorgliders, I might just own one someday, Eileen and I could roll out on our runway and takeoff without assistance. There is nothing that I could find fault with that type of flight. R does that and it is
satisfied. Old Bob, The PuristEric, I could be mistaken, yet that hardly ever happens, I do not need an endorsement to fly a motorglider, I flew motorgliders prior to the endorsement requirements. There is a chance that the insurance would require one, but the FAA requirement isNow about your comment referencing managing a motor vs managing a tow, I cannot believeA lot to unpack. Starting with the safety part:
" in my way of thinking the pure glider is much more challenging and dangerous than any
motorglider."
I don't know how Old Bod decided a pure glider is much more dangerous than a motorglider;
in fact, I (and most MG pilots) think the towed glider is safer, because self-launching in
a motorglider is more complicated the taking a tow. And, unlike Old Bob, most of us have
thousands of hours in motorized AND towed gliders.
A towed glider pilot just gets in the tow line, waits his turn, follows the towplane, and
gets off in a thermal. His total exposure to the launch system is about 5 minutes. The MG
pilot has much more to do: he has to ensure the motor system is maintained and working
properly during the entire season, taxi safely to the launch point, determine it's safe to
take off, fly the glider and manage the engine, and finally do the shut-down and retraction.
A successful self-retrieve avoids the potential for damage or injury during an off-airport
landing, but managing the engine start exposes the pilot to potential mistakes and
distractions the towed glider pilot doesn't have. A common one is trying too long to save
the flight, then failing the restart and subsequent landing because there isn't enough
altitude left.
Please, please, anyone thinking of getting a motorglider DO NOT listen to Old Bob, because
he is not experienced enough with self-launchers give your good guidance, instead, read my
"A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" (link in the signature line) and talk to
actual motorglider pilots.
And now the "challenge" part: Old Bob should be able to understand that it's not the
glider type that determines the challenge, it's the pilot that determines the challenge.
Old Bob picks "soaring home" for his challenge, and his task is selected to provide the
amount of difficulty he wants. But, that's just Old Bob's choice, and it's not what makes
a pilot a Purist! Other pilots pick different challenges, like contests, record flying,
OLC points, or just getting as much out of a day as is possible. These challenges markedly
increase the chances of needing a retrieve, but they are just as "Purist" as the challenge
Old Bob has selected.
So remember, motorglider pilots get a motorglider for convenience and accept the increased
hazard they present. They get one because it provides more flights in more places, more
challenges than they could get with a towed glider. I hope Old Bob and Eileen get one
ASAP, so they can have even more fun, more adventures than they have now. >>>> --
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
that you wrote that, you should re evaluate that scenario,
Perhaps your aren't paying attention to the situation: you are trying to explain towed vs
self-launch to someone that has made 2000+ towed launches and 800+ self-launches, while
you have made no self-launches.
five minutes on tow is certainly more difficult than monitoring an engine. >> There is much more to it than "monitoring an engine". Here's an important difference: a
self-launcher under power is not the same as a glider being towed. The mast gives it a
very high thrust line, requiring back stick from normal gliding flight, and a nose high
attitude because it's climbing under it's own power. A power loss, even just the power
reduction to idle after entering lift, requires a significant change in attitude - and
then there's the retraction procedure while trying to thermal without endangering yourself
or anyone else. When towed, a glider is in nearly the same attitude it would be in free
flight, and the transition to free flight takes just a few seconds after the tow rope is
released.
And, as a tow pilot, you really should understand you are doing far more than "monitoring
the engine" while you are towing: you are the one doing the "seeing and voiding", and
preparing for emergencies at every point in the tow. The towed glider pilot is basically
just following the tow plane, but self-launch pilot has all those responsibilities you
have as a tow pilot.
Haven't we had this conversation already? It sure sounds familiar as I write it.
I strongly recommend you get your self-launch endorsement ASAP, so you have a better
understanding of self-launchers, and be more likely to aid (instead of unintentionally
mislead) pilots interested in them. Get it in a real self-launcher, like an ASK21Mi, or
ASG32Mi, and not a touring motorglider. Here's a link to the Auxiliary-powered Sailplane
Associates training page, where you will find a list of motorglider instructors;
unfortunately, very few have access to an ASK21Mi or equivalent.
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/licensing-and-training
On 1/6/2023 11:02 AM, [email protected] wrote:motorglider and soaring for say 300 k and greater and then having to start the engine to return back to the departure point is a failure.
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 1:11:25 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 1/6/2023 4:47 AM, [email protected] wrote:
On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 6:22:55 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote: >>>> On 1/2/2023 12:07 PM, [email protected] wrote:
On Saturday, December 31, 2022 at 11:52:12 AM UTC-5, jfitch wrote: >>>>>> On Friday, December 30, 2022 at 2:36:14 PM UTC-8, [email protected] wrote:
Fitch, if I made ten cross country flights in a motorglider it would be 8 more than you have made in the last five years according to OLC, please correct me if I am wrong. Looks like the abject ignorance is part of your playbook.Old Bob, The Purist has come up with my resolution for the new year. >>>>>>> Resolution #1- Be kind to motor glider pilotsNo. In fact if you had posted that tomorrow, it would have been self violating. I'd suggest an alternative:
Resolution #2- They cannot help being motor glider pilots
Resolution #3- Give those guys something to shoot for during the Geritol Classic at SLGP
Does anyone really think that I can adhere to the first two resolutions? Old Bob, The Purist
Resolution #1: Get at least 10 cross country flights in a motorglider so you would have even the slightest idea what you are talking about.
Resolution #2: After accomplishing #1, come back and critique motorgliders based on some knowledge, rather than abject ignorance.
How do those sound? My bet is you will not accomplish either of those sets of resolutions.
If a soaring pilot was to take ten cross country flights in a pure glider vs a motorglider it would be much more challenging, in my way of thinking the pure glider is much more challenging and dangerous than any motorglider. Getting in a
interesting, scores his flights then calls me to rattle my chain, it is all in fun and games. You also are invited to Vero, you may leave a better person. Your favorite purist, Old Bob, The PuristI have no problem with self launch motorgliders, I might just own one someday, Eileen and I could roll out on our runway and takeoff without assistance. There is nothing that I could find fault with that type of flight. R does that and it is
satisfied. Old Bob, The PuristEric, I could be mistaken, yet that hardly ever happens, I do not need an endorsement to fly a motorglider, I flew motorgliders prior to the endorsement requirements. There is a chance that the insurance would require one, but the FAA requirement isNow about your comment referencing managing a motor vs managing a tow, I cannot believeA lot to unpack. Starting with the safety part:
" in my way of thinking the pure glider is much more challenging and dangerous than any
motorglider."
I don't know how Old Bod decided a pure glider is much more dangerous than a motorglider;
in fact, I (and most MG pilots) think the towed glider is safer, because self-launching in
a motorglider is more complicated the taking a tow. And, unlike Old Bob, most of us have
thousands of hours in motorized AND towed gliders.
A towed glider pilot just gets in the tow line, waits his turn, follows the towplane, and
gets off in a thermal. His total exposure to the launch system is about 5 minutes. The MG
pilot has much more to do: he has to ensure the motor system is maintained and working
properly during the entire season, taxi safely to the launch point, determine it's safe to
take off, fly the glider and manage the engine, and finally do the shut-down and retraction.
A successful self-retrieve avoids the potential for damage or injury during an off-airport
landing, but managing the engine start exposes the pilot to potential mistakes and
distractions the towed glider pilot doesn't have. A common one is trying too long to save
the flight, then failing the restart and subsequent landing because there isn't enough
altitude left.
Please, please, anyone thinking of getting a motorglider DO NOT listen to Old Bob, because
he is not experienced enough with self-launchers give your good guidance, instead, read my
"A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" (link in the signature line) and talk to
actual motorglider pilots.
And now the "challenge" part: Old Bob should be able to understand that it's not the
glider type that determines the challenge, it's the pilot that determines the challenge.
Old Bob picks "soaring home" for his challenge, and his task is selected to provide the
amount of difficulty he wants. But, that's just Old Bob's choice, and it's not what makes
a pilot a Purist! Other pilots pick different challenges, like contests, record flying,
OLC points, or just getting as much out of a day as is possible. These challenges markedly
increase the chances of needing a retrieve, but they are just as "Purist" as the challenge
Old Bob has selected.
So remember, motorglider pilots get a motorglider for convenience and accept the increased
hazard they present. They get one because it provides more flights in more places, more
challenges than they could get with a towed glider. I hope Old Bob and Eileen get one
ASAP, so they can have even more fun, more adventures than they have now.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
that you wrote that, you should re evaluate that scenario,
Perhaps your aren't paying attention to the situation: you are trying to explain towed vs
self-launch to someone that has made 2000+ towed launches and 800+ self-launches, while
you have made no self-launches.
five minutes on tow is certainly more difficult than monitoring an engine.
There is much more to it than "monitoring an engine". Here's an important difference: a
self-launcher under power is not the same as a glider being towed. The mast gives it a
very high thrust line, requiring back stick from normal gliding flight, and a nose high
attitude because it's climbing under it's own power. A power loss, even just the power
reduction to idle after entering lift, requires a significant change in attitude - and
then there's the retraction procedure while trying to thermal without endangering yourself
or anyone else. When towed, a glider is in nearly the same attitude it would be in free
flight, and the transition to free flight takes just a few seconds after the tow rope is
released.
And, as a tow pilot, you really should understand you are doing far more than "monitoring
the engine" while you are towing: you are the one doing the "seeing and voiding", and
preparing for emergencies at every point in the tow. The towed glider pilot is basically
just following the tow plane, but self-launch pilot has all those responsibilities you
have as a tow pilot.
Haven't we had this conversation already? It sure sounds familiar as I write it.
I strongly recommend you get your self-launch endorsement ASAP, so you have a better
understanding of self-launchers, and be more likely to aid (instead of unintentionally
mislead) pilots interested in them. Get it in a real self-launcher, like an ASK21Mi, or
ASG32Mi, and not a touring motorglider. Here's a link to the Auxiliary-powered Sailplane
Associates training page, where you will find a list of motorglider instructors;
unfortunately, very few have access to an ASK21Mi or equivalent.
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/licensing-and-training
Do it for the knowledge, not the rating, and do it in a ASK2Mi mast style glider.Eric, there is a good chance that I was flying motorgliders long before you, Herbie, DSM-5, Bum, Fitch, and many more. You should check around and you might be surprised. Eileen also is qualified in motorgliders, gliders, twins, tail draggers, and flew
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 2:43:05 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:...
On 1/6/2023 11:02 AM, [email protected] wrote:
satisfied. Old Bob, The PuristI strongly recommend you get your self-launch endorsement ASAP, so you have a betterEric, I could be mistaken, yet that hardly ever happens, I do not need an endorsement to fly a motorglider, I flew motorgliders prior to the endorsement requirements. There is a chance that the insurance would require one, but the FAA requirement is
understanding of self-launchers, and be more likely to aid (instead of unintentionally
mislead) pilots interested in them. Get it in a real self-launcher, like an ASK21Mi, or
ASG32Mi, and not a touring motorglider. Here's a link to the Auxiliary-powered Sailplane
Associates training page, where you will find a list of motorglider instructors;
unfortunately, very few have access to an ASK21Mi or equivalent.
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/licensing-and-training
the KA350 for testing purposes, don't sell the old girl short, has made 1k parachute jumps, runs marathons, flew gliders like the ASW20L, Ventus, Mosquito, LS3A, Std Cirrus, PIK20D, LS4, Open Cirrus, two different motorgliders, ASK21, Twin Astir, KA6,Do it for the knowledge, not the rating, and do it in a ASK2Mi mast style glider.Eric, there is a good chance that I was flying motorgliders long before you, Herbie, DSM-5, Bum, Fitch, and many more. You should check around and you might be surprised. Eileen also is qualified in motorgliders, gliders, twins, tail draggers, and flew
Tom (2G),for a Private Initial course and a Commercial Add-on course cancelled their training with us based solely on the comments they read on Rec Aviation Soaring. That resulted in a loss of about $7,000 of revenue to the company. We did not advertise this fact
Since you have brought up my "threatening to sue you" twice in past posts, I would like to let everyone know the context. You made several claims about the owner of Seminole=Lake Gliderport and some of those were false. Two clients who were scheduled
Best Regards,
Rich Owen
Seminole=Lake Gliderport
On 1/6/2023 1:40 PM, [email protected] wrote:is satisfied. Old Bob, The Purist
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 2:43:05 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:...
On 1/6/2023 11:02 AM, [email protected] wrote:
I strongly recommend you get your self-launch endorsement ASAP, so you have a betterEric, I could be mistaken, yet that hardly ever happens, I do not need an endorsement to fly a motorglider, I flew motorgliders prior to the endorsement requirements. There is a chance that the insurance would require one, but the FAA requirement
understanding of self-launchers, and be more likely to aid (instead of unintentionally
mislead) pilots interested in them. Get it in a real self-launcher, like an ASK21Mi, or
ASG32Mi, and not a touring motorglider. Here's a link to the Auxiliary-powered Sailplane
Associates training page, where you will find a list of motorglider instructors;
unfortunately, very few have access to an ASK21Mi or equivalent.
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/licensing-and-training
flew the KA350 for testing purposes, don't sell the old girl short, has made 1k parachute jumps, runs marathons, flew gliders like the ASW20L, Ventus, Mosquito, LS3A, Std Cirrus, PIK20D, LS4, Open Cirrus, two different motorgliders, ASK21, Twin Astir,Do it for the knowledge, not the rating, and do it in a ASK2Mi mast style glider.Eric, there is a good chance that I was flying motorgliders long before you, Herbie, DSM-5, Bum, Fitch, and many more. You should check around and you might be surprised. Eileen also is qualified in motorgliders, gliders, twins, tail draggers, and
I am looking forward to meeting Eileen, but she isn't the one posting about MGs on RAS. MyEric, I have not read your guide, I am busy writing the new guide to glider flying called, "Fly Like A Purist". My motorglider experience ranges probably much more diverse than you recent motorglider pilots. The first motorglider I flew was Fornier RF4
remarks are directed to you, because you sometimes say things could mislead a pilot that
is not a MG pilot, or has limited experience MGs. I still hope will you answer my
questions, so I have some idea of why you believe MGs are safer than towed gliders.
1) have you read my Guide?
2) what motorgliders have you self-launched, and how many self-launches in each type?
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 6:34:44 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:is satisfied. Old Bob, The Purist
On 1/6/2023 1:40 PM, [email protected] wrote:
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 2:43:05 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:...
On 1/6/2023 11:02 AM, [email protected] wrote:
I strongly recommend you get your self-launch endorsement ASAP, so you have a betterEric, I could be mistaken, yet that hardly ever happens, I do not need an endorsement to fly a motorglider, I flew motorgliders prior to the endorsement requirements. There is a chance that the insurance would require one, but the FAA requirement
understanding of self-launchers, and be more likely to aid (instead of unintentionally
mislead) pilots interested in them. Get it in a real self-launcher, like an ASK21Mi, or
ASG32Mi, and not a touring motorglider. Here's a link to the Auxiliary-powered Sailplane
Associates training page, where you will find a list of motorglider instructors;
unfortunately, very few have access to an ASK21Mi or equivalent.
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/licensing-and-training
flew the KA350 for testing purposes, don't sell the old girl short, has made 1k parachute jumps, runs marathons, flew gliders like the ASW20L, Ventus, Mosquito, LS3A, Std Cirrus, PIK20D, LS4, Open Cirrus, two different motorgliders, ASK21, Twin Astir,Do it for the knowledge, not the rating, and do it in a ASK2Mi mast style glider.Eric, there is a good chance that I was flying motorgliders long before you, Herbie, DSM-5, Bum, Fitch, and many more. You should check around and you might be surprised. Eileen also is qualified in motorgliders, gliders, twins, tail draggers, and
RF4 in 1977 and the last was a Phoenix in 2022, and there is more in between those dates. yes, I have more flights in a motorglider than you may think. I find it comical that you compare self launch to being towed, there is no comparison, I self launchI am looking forward to meeting Eileen, but she isn't the one posting about MGs on RAS. MyEric, I have not read your guide, I am busy writing the new guide to glider flying called, "Fly Like A Purist". My motorglider experience ranges probably much more diverse than you recent motorglider pilots. The first motorglider I flew was Fornier
remarks are directed to you, because you sometimes say things could mislead a pilot that
is not a MG pilot, or has limited experience MGs. I still hope will you answer my
questions, so I have some idea of why you believe MGs are safer than towed gliders.
1) have you read my Guide?
2) what motorgliders have you self-launched, and how many self-launches in each type?
On 1/7/2023 3:01 PM, [email protected] wrote:is satisfied. Old Bob, The Purist
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 6:34:44 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 1/6/2023 1:40 PM, [email protected] wrote:
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 2:43:05 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote: >>>> On 1/6/2023 11:02 AM, [email protected] wrote:...
I strongly recommend you get your self-launch endorsement ASAP, so you have a better
understanding of self-launchers, and be more likely to aid (instead of unintentionally
mislead) pilots interested in them. Get it in a real self-launcher, like an ASK21Mi, or
ASG32Mi, and not a touring motorglider. Here's a link to the Auxiliary-powered Sailplane
Associates training page, where you will find a list of motorglider instructors;
unfortunately, very few have access to an ASK21Mi or equivalent. >>>>>>
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/licensing-and-training >>>>> Eric, I could be mistaken, yet that hardly ever happens, I do not need an endorsement to fly a motorglider, I flew motorgliders prior to the endorsement requirements. There is a chance that the insurance would require one, but the FAA requirement
flew the KA350 for testing purposes, don't sell the old girl short, has made 1k parachute jumps, runs marathons, flew gliders like the ASW20L, Ventus, Mosquito, LS3A, Std Cirrus, PIK20D, LS4, Open Cirrus, two different motorgliders, ASK21, Twin Astir,Do it for the knowledge, not the rating, and do it in a ASK2Mi mast style glider.Eric, there is a good chance that I was flying motorgliders long before you, Herbie, DSM-5, Bum, Fitch, and many more. You should check around and you might be surprised. Eileen also is qualified in motorgliders, gliders, twins, tail draggers, and
RF4 in 1977 and the last was a Phoenix in 2022, and there is more in between those dates. yes, I have more flights in a motorglider than you may think. I find it comical that you compare self launch to being towed, there is no comparison, I self launchI am looking forward to meeting Eileen, but she isn't the one posting about MGs on RAS. MyEric, I have not read your guide, I am busy writing the new guide to glider flying called, "Fly Like A Purist". My motorglider experience ranges probably much more diverse than you recent motorglider pilots. The first motorglider I flew was Fornier
remarks are directed to you, because you sometimes say things could mislead a pilot that
is not a MG pilot, or has limited experience MGs. I still hope will you answer my
questions, so I have some idea of why you believe MGs are safer than towed gliders.
1) have you read my Guide?
2) what motorgliders have you self-launched, and how many self-launches in each type?
Experience in an RF4 and Phoenix does not prepare you to safely fly a mast styleEric, forget about towing with the Phoenix, it will not get the job done to any degree of satisfaction. You should get a better understanding from the tow pilots seat. OBTP
self-launcher. I have 800+ hours in my Phoenix, so I have the experience to back up that
opinion. What mast style self-launcher have you flown? How many launches? How many hours?
And when?
I do have a power rating, but I have never towed. My Phoenix has a Tost hook and can
legally tow up to 1320 lbs. If there was a local need for tows, I would consider acquiring
the skill, but there isn't any call for it here. It's not something a pilot should dabble
in, but either do enough to be good and current at it, or just fly gliders instead. But,
you know that: it's what you do, and apparently do well.
Please, read the Guide! That will add significantly to your self-launching knowledge, and
we won't need these long threads about them. I can hear bodies tipping over in their
chairs, lying on floor, hoping Daryl will post something to distract them.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
Eric, forget about towing with the Phoenix, it will not get the job done to any degree of satisfaction. You should get a better understanding from the tow pilots seat. OBTP
Le dimanche 8 janvier 2023 à 09:43:10 UTC+1, [email protected] a écrit :need for a complex pilot's license, medical examination nor proof of skills, in Europe there are thousands of pilots available in this category. The 100 HP engine drinks a maximum of 4.7 gallons/h of Mogas, it tows a single-seater at more than 1,000 ft/
Eric, forget about towing with the Phoenix, it will not get the job done to any degree of satisfaction. You should get a better understanding from the tow pilots seat. OBTPMy dear "mister who knows everything and who has seen everything", and who pollutes this forum every day by giving lessons as God the father, I am revolted by your position.
Remember that there are no bad planes nor bad gliders, only bad pilots and readers will choose which category to classify you.
It is not possible to compare the Phoenix to the Pawnee, they are two completely different designs for two different uses and two different markets that have no relation to each other.
There are fifty years of difference between these two projects (2009 and 1959).
The first was designed in the ULM/LSA/ELA spirit where economy of use, light weight and simplicity of maintenance and use are the rules. No need for a certified engineer, no need for an official annual inspection, the owner is solely responsible. No
The neighboring club has already made more than 1,000 tows with the Phoenix, mainly light two-seater school (ASK13) or single-seater training gliders, at a cost of a fraction of that of the Pawnee. The long asphalt runway allows safe take off. InEurope, gliding is not a sport for the rich or the silver-heads and the economy is fundamental in allowing young people to start flying, without whom there is no future. Not to mention the noise which is the main negative factor for light aviation.
The Pawnee was designed to fly with nearly one ton of water, its empty weight is more than double than the one of the Phoenix, it is submitted to maintenance rules that are as strict as they are costly with semi-professional pilots whose number isdecreasing year after year. With its 235 HP, it consumes 4 times more than the Phoenix of a very polluting fuel which should disappear and which costs a fortune (nearly 1 US$/gallon in Europe). It is an aviation dinosaur.
A neighboring club uses it to tow heavy gliders on a short runway, it is very popular when the wind is strong and turbulent, because it increases the safety altitude at the end of the runway. Qualified tow pilots are not numerous and there is sometimesa long queue on the grid.
These two machines therefore have their own place in the gliding landscape, you just have to choose the right one for the right application.
Your statement “forget about towing with the Phoenix, it will not get the job done to any degree of satisfaction” therefore demonstrates a profound misunderstanding of the subject. You are not in a position to give a serious advice.
Cordial regards
jmc
7,000 hours in glider and light aircrafts, multi world record holder in glider, tow pilot on aircraft (since 1960 in a Fieseler Storch) and UL (since 2015). With absolutely no commercial interest in any sale of any aircraft.
On 1/9/2023 4:34 AM, [email protected] wrote:need for a complex pilot's license, medical examination nor proof of skills, in Europe there are thousands of pilots available in this category. The 100 HP engine drinks a maximum of 4.7 gallons/h of Mogas, it tows a single-seater at more than 1,000 ft/
On Monday, January 9, 2023 at 5:21:44 AM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
Le dimanche 8 janvier 2023 à 09:43:10 UTC+1, [email protected] a écrit :
Eric, forget about towing with the Phoenix, it will not get the job done to any degree of satisfaction. You should get a better understanding from the tow pilots seat. OBTPMy dear "mister who knows everything and who has seen everything", and who pollutes this forum every day by giving lessons as God the father, I am revolted by your position.
Remember that there are no bad planes nor bad gliders, only bad pilots and readers will choose which category to classify you.
It is not possible to compare the Phoenix to the Pawnee, they are two completely different designs for two different uses and two different markets that have no relation to each other.
There are fifty years of difference between these two projects (2009 and 1959).
The first was designed in the ULM/LSA/ELA spirit where economy of use, light weight and simplicity of maintenance and use are the rules. No need for a certified engineer, no need for an official annual inspection, the owner is solely responsible. No
Europe, gliding is not a sport for the rich or the silver-heads and the economy is fundamental in allowing young people to start flying, without whom there is no future. Not to mention the noise which is the main negative factor for light aviation.
The neighboring club has already made more than 1,000 tows with the Phoenix, mainly light two-seater school (ASK13) or single-seater training gliders, at a cost of a fraction of that of the Pawnee. The long asphalt runway allows safe take off. In
decreasing year after year. With its 235 HP, it consumes 4 times more than the Phoenix of a very polluting fuel which should disappear and which costs a fortune (nearly 1 US$/gallon in Europe). It is an aviation dinosaur.
The Pawnee was designed to fly with nearly one ton of water, its empty weight is more than double than the one of the Phoenix, it is submitted to maintenance rules that are as strict as they are costly with semi-professional pilots whose number is
sometimes a long queue on the grid.
A neighboring club uses it to tow heavy gliders on a short runway, it is very popular when the wind is strong and turbulent, because it increases the safety altitude at the end of the runway. Qualified tow pilots are not numerous and there is
with a Phoenix in this country. I really love it when someone tries to equate the 912 Rotax to the O-540, your looking at Godzilla vs a Chimpanzee. So until the time comes when I see Phoenix motorgliders on the grid I will continue to stick with the
These two machines therefore have their own place in the gliding landscape, you just have to choose the right one for the right application.
Your statement “forget about towing with the Phoenix, it will not get the job done to any degree of satisfaction” therefore demonstrates a profound misunderstanding of the subject. You are not in a position to give a serious advice.
Cordial regards
jmc
7,000 hours in glider and light aircrafts, multi world record holder in glider, tow pilot on aircraft (since 1960 in a Fieseler Storch) and UL (since 2015). With absolutely no commercial interest in any sale of any aircraft.
to JMC
I am not impressed with your opinion on the Phoenix as a towplane, IMHO it is a platform that will not do the job to meet our needs, and it will not get the job done to any degree of satisfaction, maybe someone can tell me how well they are doing
JMC, thank you for your report on the value and utility of the Phoenix as a towplane inEric, when you rely on such information as provided by UL then you should re-evaluate your thinking on towing with a motorglider, and since you have never towed maybe you should ask a few tow pilots on this forum about their concept of towing with a
Europe. It is more capable than I imagined.
Old Bob, you were giving me and many others advice, and it's advice that doesn't apply
when it's based only on your particular situation, which is very different from my
situation (and most others). I have 4000' of paved runway, at 400' elevation. With a
single person and enough fuel for a dozen+ launches, it climbs at 1500 fpm. Obviously, it
can easily launch the Russia AC-4 at my airport, the glider most likely to want a tow here.
And, the Phoenix has capabilities the Pawnee will never have: with the long wing tips,
it's a 30:1 glider ("only" 20:1 with the short tips), and can be used for glider training
(it's particularly good at cross-country training), and giving rides.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
On Monday, January 9, 2023 at 8:47:01 AM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:No need for a complex pilot's license, medical examination nor proof of skills, in Europe there are thousands of pilots available in this category. The 100 HP engine drinks a maximum of 4.7 gallons/h of Mogas, it tows a single-seater at more than 1,000
On 1/9/2023 4:34 AM, [email protected] wrote:
On Monday, January 9, 2023 at 5:21:44 AM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
Le dimanche 8 janvier 2023 à 09:43:10 UTC+1, [email protected] a écrit :
Eric, forget about towing with the Phoenix, it will not get the job done to any degree of satisfaction. You should get a better understanding from the tow pilots seat. OBTPMy dear "mister who knows everything and who has seen everything", and who pollutes this forum every day by giving lessons as God the father, I am revolted by your position.
Remember that there are no bad planes nor bad gliders, only bad pilots and readers will choose which category to classify you.
It is not possible to compare the Phoenix to the Pawnee, they are two completely different designs for two different uses and two different markets that have no relation to each other.
There are fifty years of difference between these two projects (2009 and 1959).
The first was designed in the ULM/LSA/ELA spirit where economy of use, light weight and simplicity of maintenance and use are the rules. No need for a certified engineer, no need for an official annual inspection, the owner is solely responsible.
Europe, gliding is not a sport for the rich or the silver-heads and the economy is fundamental in allowing young people to start flying, without whom there is no future. Not to mention the noise which is the main negative factor for light aviation.
The neighboring club has already made more than 1,000 tows with the Phoenix, mainly light two-seater school (ASK13) or single-seater training gliders, at a cost of a fraction of that of the Pawnee. The long asphalt runway allows safe take off. In
decreasing year after year. With its 235 HP, it consumes 4 times more than the Phoenix of a very polluting fuel which should disappear and which costs a fortune (nearly 1 US$/gallon in Europe). It is an aviation dinosaur.
The Pawnee was designed to fly with nearly one ton of water, its empty weight is more than double than the one of the Phoenix, it is submitted to maintenance rules that are as strict as they are costly with semi-professional pilots whose number is
sometimes a long queue on the grid.
A neighboring club uses it to tow heavy gliders on a short runway, it is very popular when the wind is strong and turbulent, because it increases the safety altitude at the end of the runway. Qualified tow pilots are not numerous and there is
with a Phoenix in this country. I really love it when someone tries to equate the 912 Rotax to the O-540, your looking at Godzilla vs a Chimpanzee. So until the time comes when I see Phoenix motorgliders on the grid I will continue to stick with the
These two machines therefore have their own place in the gliding landscape, you just have to choose the right one for the right application.
Your statement “forget about towing with the Phoenix, it will not get the job done to any degree of satisfaction” therefore demonstrates a profound misunderstanding of the subject. You are not in a position to give a serious advice.
Cordial regards
jmc
7,000 hours in glider and light aircrafts, multi world record holder in glider, tow pilot on aircraft (since 1960 in a Fieseler Storch) and UL (since 2015). With absolutely no commercial interest in any sale of any aircraft.
to JMC
I am not impressed with your opinion on the Phoenix as a towplane, IMHO it is a platform that will not do the job to meet our needs, and it will not get the job done to any degree of satisfaction, maybe someone can tell me how well they are doing
Phoenix. I do about 1300 tows per year and when I hear someone comment about replacing the Pawnee with a motorglider as a tow plane I just shake my head and laugh. Maybe there are some qualified tow pilots in RAS that could give educated and experiencedJMC, thank you for your report on the value and utility of the Phoenix as a towplane in
Europe. It is more capable than I imagined.
Old Bob, you were giving me and many others advice, and it's advice that doesn't apply
when it's based only on your particular situation, which is very different from my
situation (and most others). I have 4000' of paved runway, at 400' elevation. With a
single person and enough fuel for a dozen+ launches, it climbs at 1500 fpm. Obviously, it
can easily launch the Russia AC-4 at my airport, the glider most likely to want a tow here.
And, the Phoenix has capabilities the Pawnee will never have: with the long wing tips,Eric, when you rely on such information as provided by UL then you should re-evaluate your thinking on towing with a motorglider, and since you have never towed maybe you should ask a few tow pilots on this forum about their concept of towing with a
it's a 30:1 glider ("only" 20:1 with the short tips), and can be used for glider training
(it's particularly good at cross-country training), and giving rides.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
Le lundi 9 janvier 2023 à 19:20:15 UTC+1, [email protected] a écrit :No need for a complex pilot's license, medical examination nor proof of skills, in Europe there are thousands of pilots available in this category. The 100 HP engine drinks a maximum of 4.7 gallons/h of Mogas, it tows a single-seater at more than 1,000
On Monday, January 9, 2023 at 8:47:01 AM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 1/9/2023 4:34 AM, [email protected] wrote:
On Monday, January 9, 2023 at 5:21:44 AM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
Le dimanche 8 janvier 2023 à 09:43:10 UTC+1, [email protected] a écrit :
Eric, forget about towing with the Phoenix, it will not get the job done to any degree of satisfaction. You should get a better understanding from the tow pilots seat. OBTPMy dear "mister who knows everything and who has seen everything", and who pollutes this forum every day by giving lessons as God the father, I am revolted by your position.
Remember that there are no bad planes nor bad gliders, only bad pilots and readers will choose which category to classify you.
It is not possible to compare the Phoenix to the Pawnee, they are two completely different designs for two different uses and two different markets that have no relation to each other.
There are fifty years of difference between these two projects (2009 and 1959).
The first was designed in the ULM/LSA/ELA spirit where economy of use, light weight and simplicity of maintenance and use are the rules. No need for a certified engineer, no need for an official annual inspection, the owner is solely responsible.
In Europe, gliding is not a sport for the rich or the silver-heads and the economy is fundamental in allowing young people to start flying, without whom there is no future. Not to mention the noise which is the main negative factor for light aviation.
The neighboring club has already made more than 1,000 tows with the Phoenix, mainly light two-seater school (ASK13) or single-seater training gliders, at a cost of a fraction of that of the Pawnee. The long asphalt runway allows safe take off.
is decreasing year after year. With its 235 HP, it consumes 4 times more than the Phoenix of a very polluting fuel which should disappear and which costs a fortune (nearly 1 US$/gallon in Europe). It is an aviation dinosaur.
The Pawnee was designed to fly with nearly one ton of water, its empty weight is more than double than the one of the Phoenix, it is submitted to maintenance rules that are as strict as they are costly with semi-professional pilots whose number
sometimes a long queue on the grid.
A neighboring club uses it to tow heavy gliders on a short runway, it is very popular when the wind is strong and turbulent, because it increases the safety altitude at the end of the runway. Qualified tow pilots are not numerous and there is
with a Phoenix in this country. I really love it when someone tries to equate the 912 Rotax to the O-540, your looking at Godzilla vs a Chimpanzee. So until the time comes when I see Phoenix motorgliders on the grid I will continue to stick with the
These two machines therefore have their own place in the gliding landscape, you just have to choose the right one for the right application.
Your statement “forget about towing with the Phoenix, it will not get the job done to any degree of satisfaction” therefore demonstrates a profound misunderstanding of the subject. You are not in a position to give a serious advice.
Cordial regards
jmc
7,000 hours in glider and light aircrafts, multi world record holder in glider, tow pilot on aircraft (since 1960 in a Fieseler Storch) and UL (since 2015). With absolutely no commercial interest in any sale of any aircraft.
to JMC
I am not impressed with your opinion on the Phoenix as a towplane, IMHO it is a platform that will not do the job to meet our needs, and it will not get the job done to any degree of satisfaction, maybe someone can tell me how well they are doing
Phoenix. I do about 1300 tows per year and when I hear someone comment about replacing the Pawnee with a motorglider as a tow plane I just shake my head and laugh. Maybe there are some qualified tow pilots in RAS that could give educated and experiencedJMC, thank you for your report on the value and utility of the Phoenix as a towplane in
Europe. It is more capable than I imagined.
Old Bob, you were giving me and many others advice, and it's advice that doesn't apply
when it's based only on your particular situation, which is very different from my
situation (and most others). I have 4000' of paved runway, at 400' elevation. With a
single person and enough fuel for a dozen+ launches, it climbs at 1500 fpm. Obviously, it
can easily launch the Russia AC-4 at my airport, the glider most likely to want a tow here.
And, the Phoenix has capabilities the Pawnee will never have: with the long wing tips,Eric, when you rely on such information as provided by UL then you should re-evaluate your thinking on towing with a motorglider, and since you have never towed maybe you should ask a few tow pilots on this forum about their concept of towing with a
it's a 30:1 glider ("only" 20:1 with the short tips), and can be used for glider training
(it's particularly good at cross-country training), and giving rides.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
To all :To UL, AKA Jean
This forum is called “SOARING”. If someone makes 1300 tows per year, this means that he does not have time to understand real soaring, the one that make pilots dream.
The question is not to compare the Pawnee, which is ONLY a tow plane, to the Phoenix, which is a fine training self-launching glider, offering occasional towing capabilities.
The question is to compare an aging, heavy and very expensive but powerful post-war tow plane with modern Ultra-Light aircrafts. All types.
In Europe, we get subsidies to replace these old planes with an UL. One good reason is the protection of environment and noise, and then operating cost.
For sure I feel much more comfortable in towing with the good old Stinson L5 and its 235 HP (we have plenty) than with my UL with only 100 HP (not a Phoenix).
There are so many considerations to take into account that it could be a good reason for creating a specialized RAS.
The SOARING RAS is not the right place for that. We all lose time and energy. Please stop this stupid discussion. I leave.
Spring is coming, prepare your toys!
jm
On Monday, January 9, 2023 at 2:08:21 PM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:responsible. No need for a complex pilot's license, medical examination nor proof of skills, in Europe there are thousands of pilots available in this category. The 100 HP engine drinks a maximum of 4.7 gallons/h of Mogas, it tows a single-seater at more
Le lundi 9 janvier 2023 à 19:20:15 UTC+1, [email protected] a écrit :
On Monday, January 9, 2023 at 8:47:01 AM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 1/9/2023 4:34 AM, [email protected] wrote:
On Monday, January 9, 2023 at 5:21:44 AM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
Le dimanche 8 janvier 2023 à 09:43:10 UTC+1, [email protected] a écrit :
Eric, forget about towing with the Phoenix, it will not get the job done to any degree of satisfaction. You should get a better understanding from the tow pilots seat. OBTPMy dear "mister who knows everything and who has seen everything", and who pollutes this forum every day by giving lessons as God the father, I am revolted by your position.
Remember that there are no bad planes nor bad gliders, only bad pilots and readers will choose which category to classify you.
It is not possible to compare the Phoenix to the Pawnee, they are two completely different designs for two different uses and two different markets that have no relation to each other.
There are fifty years of difference between these two projects (2009 and 1959).
The first was designed in the ULM/LSA/ELA spirit where economy of use, light weight and simplicity of maintenance and use are the rules. No need for a certified engineer, no need for an official annual inspection, the owner is solely
In Europe, gliding is not a sport for the rich or the silver-heads and the economy is fundamental in allowing young people to start flying, without whom there is no future. Not to mention the noise which is the main negative factor for light aviation.
The neighboring club has already made more than 1,000 tows with the Phoenix, mainly light two-seater school (ASK13) or single-seater training gliders, at a cost of a fraction of that of the Pawnee. The long asphalt runway allows safe take off.
number is decreasing year after year. With its 235 HP, it consumes 4 times more than the Phoenix of a very polluting fuel which should disappear and which costs a fortune (nearly 1 US$/gallon in Europe). It is an aviation dinosaur.
The Pawnee was designed to fly with nearly one ton of water, its empty weight is more than double than the one of the Phoenix, it is submitted to maintenance rules that are as strict as they are costly with semi-professional pilots whose
sometimes a long queue on the grid.
A neighboring club uses it to tow heavy gliders on a short runway, it is very popular when the wind is strong and turbulent, because it increases the safety altitude at the end of the runway. Qualified tow pilots are not numerous and there is
doing with a Phoenix in this country. I really love it when someone tries to equate the 912 Rotax to the O-540, your looking at Godzilla vs a Chimpanzee. So until the time comes when I see Phoenix motorgliders on the grid I will continue to stick with
These two machines therefore have their own place in the gliding landscape, you just have to choose the right one for the right application.
Your statement “forget about towing with the Phoenix, it will not get the job done to any degree of satisfaction” therefore demonstrates a profound misunderstanding of the subject. You are not in a position to give a serious advice.
Cordial regards
jmc
7,000 hours in glider and light aircrafts, multi world record holder in glider, tow pilot on aircraft (since 1960 in a Fieseler Storch) and UL (since 2015). With absolutely no commercial interest in any sale of any aircraft.
to JMC
I am not impressed with your opinion on the Phoenix as a towplane, IMHO it is a platform that will not do the job to meet our needs, and it will not get the job done to any degree of satisfaction, maybe someone can tell me how well they are
a Phoenix. I do about 1300 tows per year and when I hear someone comment about replacing the Pawnee with a motorglider as a tow plane I just shake my head and laugh. Maybe there are some qualified tow pilots in RAS that could give educated andJMC, thank you for your report on the value and utility of the Phoenix as a towplane in
Europe. It is more capable than I imagined.
Old Bob, you were giving me and many others advice, and it's advice that doesn't apply
when it's based only on your particular situation, which is very different from my
situation (and most others). I have 4000' of paved runway, at 400' elevation. With a
single person and enough fuel for a dozen+ launches, it climbs at 1500 fpm. Obviously, it
can easily launch the Russia AC-4 at my airport, the glider most likely to want a tow here.
And, the Phoenix has capabilities the Pawnee will never have: with the long wing tips,Eric, when you rely on such information as provided by UL then you should re-evaluate your thinking on towing with a motorglider, and since you have never towed maybe you should ask a few tow pilots on this forum about their concept of towing with
it's a 30:1 glider ("only" 20:1 with the short tips), and can be used for glider training
(it's particularly good at cross-country training), and giving rides. --
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
describe. None of us will be alive to see the day when light sport replaces the Pawnee as the tow plane of choice. Thanks for leaving, people are always suspect when they pass gas and depart the room, you really stunk it up. OBTPTo all :To UL, AKA Jean
This forum is called “SOARING”. If someone makes 1300 tows per year, this means that he does not have time to understand real soaring, the one that make pilots dream.
The question is not to compare the Pawnee, which is ONLY a tow plane, to the Phoenix, which is a fine training self-launching glider, offering occasional towing capabilities.
The question is to compare an aging, heavy and very expensive but powerful post-war tow plane with modern Ultra-Light aircrafts. All types.
In Europe, we get subsidies to replace these old planes with an UL. One good reason is the protection of environment and noise, and then operating cost.
For sure I feel much more comfortable in towing with the good old Stinson L5 and its 235 HP (we have plenty) than with my UL with only 100 HP (not a Phoenix).
There are so many considerations to take into account that it could be a good reason for creating a specialized RAS.
The SOARING RAS is not the right place for that. We all lose time and energy. Please stop this stupid discussion. I leave.
Spring is coming, prepare your toys!
jm
I have a pretty good grip on real soaring, logged over 3200 hours in HP Glass, what you seem not to have a very good understanding of the power needed to make a safe tow. Our Pawnee's here in the USA are alive and well, and not dinosaurs as you
On Monday, January 9, 2023 at 12:56:11 PM UTC-8, [email protected] wrote:responsible. No need for a complex pilot's license, medical examination nor proof of skills, in Europe there are thousands of pilots available in this category. The 100 HP engine drinks a maximum of 4.7 gallons/h of Mogas, it tows a single-seater at more
On Monday, January 9, 2023 at 2:08:21 PM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
Le lundi 9 janvier 2023 à 19:20:15 UTC+1, [email protected] a écrit :
On Monday, January 9, 2023 at 8:47:01 AM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 1/9/2023 4:34 AM, [email protected] wrote:
On Monday, January 9, 2023 at 5:21:44 AM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
Le dimanche 8 janvier 2023 à 09:43:10 UTC+1, [email protected] a écrit :
Eric, forget about towing with the Phoenix, it will not get the job done to any degree of satisfaction. You should get a better understanding from the tow pilots seat. OBTPMy dear "mister who knows everything and who has seen everything", and who pollutes this forum every day by giving lessons as God the father, I am revolted by your position.
Remember that there are no bad planes nor bad gliders, only bad pilots and readers will choose which category to classify you.
It is not possible to compare the Phoenix to the Pawnee, they are two completely different designs for two different uses and two different markets that have no relation to each other.
There are fifty years of difference between these two projects (2009 and 1959).
The first was designed in the ULM/LSA/ELA spirit where economy of use, light weight and simplicity of maintenance and use are the rules. No need for a certified engineer, no need for an official annual inspection, the owner is solely
off. In Europe, gliding is not a sport for the rich or the silver-heads and the economy is fundamental in allowing young people to start flying, without whom there is no future. Not to mention the noise which is the main negative factor for light
The neighboring club has already made more than 1,000 tows with the Phoenix, mainly light two-seater school (ASK13) or single-seater training gliders, at a cost of a fraction of that of the Pawnee. The long asphalt runway allows safe take
number is decreasing year after year. With its 235 HP, it consumes 4 times more than the Phoenix of a very polluting fuel which should disappear and which costs a fortune (nearly 1 US$/gallon in Europe). It is an aviation dinosaur.
The Pawnee was designed to fly with nearly one ton of water, its empty weight is more than double than the one of the Phoenix, it is submitted to maintenance rules that are as strict as they are costly with semi-professional pilots whose
is sometimes a long queue on the grid.
A neighboring club uses it to tow heavy gliders on a short runway, it is very popular when the wind is strong and turbulent, because it increases the safety altitude at the end of the runway. Qualified tow pilots are not numerous and there
doing with a Phoenix in this country. I really love it when someone tries to equate the 912 Rotax to the O-540, your looking at Godzilla vs a Chimpanzee. So until the time comes when I see Phoenix motorgliders on the grid I will continue to stick with
These two machines therefore have their own place in the gliding landscape, you just have to choose the right one for the right application.
Your statement “forget about towing with the Phoenix, it will not get the job done to any degree of satisfaction” therefore demonstrates a profound misunderstanding of the subject. You are not in a position to give a serious advice.
Cordial regards
jmc
7,000 hours in glider and light aircrafts, multi world record holder in glider, tow pilot on aircraft (since 1960 in a Fieseler Storch) and UL (since 2015). With absolutely no commercial interest in any sale of any aircraft.
to JMC
I am not impressed with your opinion on the Phoenix as a towplane, IMHO it is a platform that will not do the job to meet our needs, and it will not get the job done to any degree of satisfaction, maybe someone can tell me how well they are
with a Phoenix. I do about 1300 tows per year and when I hear someone comment about replacing the Pawnee with a motorglider as a tow plane I just shake my head and laugh. Maybe there are some qualified tow pilots in RAS that could give educated andJMC, thank you for your report on the value and utility of the Phoenix as a towplane in
Europe. It is more capable than I imagined.
Old Bob, you were giving me and many others advice, and it's advice that doesn't apply
when it's based only on your particular situation, which is very different from my
situation (and most others). I have 4000' of paved runway, at 400' elevation. With a
single person and enough fuel for a dozen+ launches, it climbs at 1500 fpm. Obviously, it
can easily launch the Russia AC-4 at my airport, the glider most likely to want a tow here.
And, the Phoenix has capabilities the Pawnee will never have: with the long wing tips,Eric, when you rely on such information as provided by UL then you should re-evaluate your thinking on towing with a motorglider, and since you have never towed maybe you should ask a few tow pilots on this forum about their concept of towing
it's a 30:1 glider ("only" 20:1 with the short tips), and can be used for glider training
(it's particularly good at cross-country training), and giving rides.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
describe. None of us will be alive to see the day when light sport replaces the Pawnee as the tow plane of choice. Thanks for leaving, people are always suspect when they pass gas and depart the room, you really stunk it up. OBTPTo all :To UL, AKA Jean
This forum is called “SOARING”. If someone makes 1300 tows per year, this means that he does not have time to understand real soaring, the one that make pilots dream.
The question is not to compare the Pawnee, which is ONLY a tow plane, to the Phoenix, which is a fine training self-launching glider, offering occasional towing capabilities.
The question is to compare an aging, heavy and very expensive but powerful post-war tow plane with modern Ultra-Light aircrafts. All types.
In Europe, we get subsidies to replace these old planes with an UL. One good reason is the protection of environment and noise, and then operating cost.
For sure I feel much more comfortable in towing with the good old Stinson L5 and its 235 HP (we have plenty) than with my UL with only 100 HP (not a Phoenix).
There are so many considerations to take into account that it could be a good reason for creating a specialized RAS.
The SOARING RAS is not the right place for that. We all lose time and energy. Please stop this stupid discussion. I leave.
Spring is coming, prepare your toys!
jm
I have a pretty good grip on real soaring, logged over 3200 hours in HP Glass, what you seem not to have a very good understanding of the power needed to make a safe tow. Our Pawnee's here in the USA are alive and well, and not dinosaurs as you
Hey PottyMouth, have you EVER towed with an UL? Just asking...DSM-5 Get help immediately, don't wait until you come to SLGP as you said you were coming, I have a surprise for you. OBTP
I guess if you have a long, hard surface runway, some head wind and a competent, heads up pilot behind you you could tow with a less powerful plane. Having had the glider's spoilers pop open more than once while towing with a Pawnee I can tell you thatwhen it happens I want HORSEPOWER and as much of it as possible. I don't see any subsidies available in the USofA to replace the current crop of tow planes. Perhaps if our government wasn't subsidizing the safety of the rest of the world with our money
Walt ConnellyYep, sign me up coach, I can tow! Where do these nut jobs come from? I just like you Walt have had many adventurous escapades in towing, spoilers out, high on takeoff, pulling your ass all over the place, the list goes on and on, I have pick out my point
Former Tow Pilot
On Thursday, January 12, 2023 at 9:25:48 AM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:that when it happens I want HORSEPOWER and as much of it as possible. I don't see any subsidies available in the USofA to replace the current crop of tow planes. Perhaps if our government wasn't subsidizing the safety of the rest of the world with our
I guess if you have a long, hard surface runway, some head wind and a competent, heads up pilot behind you you could tow with a less powerful plane. Having had the glider's spoilers pop open more than once while towing with a Pawnee I can tell you
point of ground contact more than once . Well, now you have some Frenchman telling us how LSA are great towplanes and that the Pawnee is a dinosaur. I would really like for Jean to hook up behind the Towpecker and give us a critique of how to substituteYep, sign me up coach, I can tow! Where do these nut jobs come from? I just like you Walt have had many adventurous escapades in towing, spoilers out, high on takeoff, pulling your ass all over the place, the list goes on and on, I have pick out my
Walt Connelly
Former Tow Pilot
On 1/12/2023 3:32 PM, [email protected] wrote:that when it happens I want HORSEPOWER and as much of it as possible. I don't see any subsidies available in the USofA to replace the current crop of tow planes. Perhaps if our government wasn't subsidizing the safety of the rest of the world with our
On Thursday, January 12, 2023 at 9:25:48 AM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
I guess if you have a long, hard surface runway, some head wind and a competent, heads up pilot behind you you could tow with a less powerful plane. Having had the glider's spoilers pop open more than once while towing with a Pawnee I can tell you
point of ground contact more than once . Well, now you have some Frenchman telling us how LSA are great towplanes and that the Pawnee is a dinosaur. I would really like for Jean to hook up behind the Towpecker and give us a critique of how to substituteYep, sign me up coach, I can tow! Where do these nut jobs come from? I just like you Walt have had many adventurous escapades in towing, spoilers out, high on takeoff, pulling your ass all over the place, the list goes on and on, I have pick out my
Walt Connelly
Former Tow Pilot
Our club used a 150 hp Citabria, which did a good job for us for many years. After 10The performance is the most critical issue, it also provides a greater safety margin! OBTP
years, we regretted we bought it instead of the tri-cycle gear Cessna 150/150 that was
also available at the time, but was more expensive. By the early 90's it was very
difficult to find willing pilots with enough tail dragger time to satisfy the insurance
requirements (or even common sense), and the Cessna would have increased the number of
potential towpilots by a factor of 5 or more. And how was how the club to train tow pilots
in a single seat tail dragger?
My point: the club circumstances must guide the aircraft choice, not just the performance
of the aircraft.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
On Friday, January 13, 2023 at 9:26:49 AM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:that when it happens I want HORSEPOWER and as much of it as possible. I don't see any subsidies available in the USofA to replace the current crop of tow planes. Perhaps if our government wasn't subsidizing the safety of the rest of the world with our
On 1/12/2023 3:32 PM, [email protected] wrote:
On Thursday, January 12, 2023 at 9:25:48 AM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote: >>>> I guess if you have a long, hard surface runway, some head wind and a competent, heads up pilot behind you you could tow with a less powerful plane. Having had the glider's spoilers pop open more than once while towing with a Pawnee I can tell you
point of ground contact more than once . Well, now you have some Frenchman telling us how LSA are great towplanes and that the Pawnee is a dinosaur. I would really like for Jean to hook up behind the Towpecker and give us a critique of how to substituteYep, sign me up coach, I can tow! Where do these nut jobs come from? I just like you Walt have had many adventurous escapades in towing, spoilers out, high on takeoff, pulling your ass all over the place, the list goes on and on, I have pick out my
Walt Connelly
Former Tow Pilot
Our club used a 150 hp Citabria, which did a good job for us for many years. After 10The performance is the most critical issue, it also provides a greater safety margin! OBTP
years, we regretted we bought it instead of the tri-cycle gear Cessna 150/150 that was
also available at the time, but was more expensive. By the early 90's it was very
difficult to find willing pilots with enough tail dragger time to satisfy the insurance
requirements (or even common sense), and the Cessna would have increased the number of
potential towpilots by a factor of 5 or more. And how was how the club to train tow pilots
in a single seat tail dragger?
My point: the club circumstances must guide the aircraft choice, not just the performance
of the aircraft.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
On 1/13/2023 11:38 AM, [email protected] wrote:that when it happens I want HORSEPOWER and as much of it as possible. I don't see any subsidies available in the USofA to replace the current crop of tow planes. Perhaps if our government wasn't subsidizing the safety of the rest of the world with our
On Friday, January 13, 2023 at 9:26:49 AM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 1/12/2023 3:32 PM, [email protected] wrote:
On Thursday, January 12, 2023 at 9:25:48 AM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
I guess if you have a long, hard surface runway, some head wind and a competent, heads up pilot behind you you could tow with a less powerful plane. Having had the glider's spoilers pop open more than once while towing with a Pawnee I can tell you
point of ground contact more than once . Well, now you have some Frenchman telling us how LSA are great towplanes and that the Pawnee is a dinosaur. I would really like for Jean to hook up behind the Towpecker and give us a critique of how to substituteYep, sign me up coach, I can tow! Where do these nut jobs come from? I just like you Walt have had many adventurous escapades in towing, spoilers out, high on takeoff, pulling your ass all over the place, the list goes on and on, I have pick out my
Walt Connelly
Former Tow Pilot
If the pilot has a tailwheel endorsement why do you think he could not fly a Pawnee? OBTPI agree that our safety margin would have been the greater with a Pawnee, because we'd beOur club used a 150 hp Citabria, which did a good job for us for many years. After 10The performance is the most critical issue, it also provides a greater safety margin! OBTP
years, we regretted we bought it instead of the tri-cycle gear Cessna 150/150 that was
also available at the time, but was more expensive. By the early 90's it was very
difficult to find willing pilots with enough tail dragger time to satisfy the insurance
requirements (or even common sense), and the Cessna would have increased the number of
potential towpilots by a factor of 5 or more. And how was how the club to train tow pilots
in a single seat tail dragger?
My point: the club circumstances must guide the aircraft choice, not just the performance
of the aircraft.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
on the ground all the time. There was zero likelihood we'd have found a pilot with Pawnee
experience that wanted to tow for us. The Citabria gave us 14 years of tows, no glider
accidents, no towplane accidents, except for a broken gear leg caused by an improper
repair in it's previous life. It's easier when there are two 4000' x 75' paved runways.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
On Friday, January 13, 2023 at 3:34:07 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:that when it happens I want HORSEPOWER and as much of it as possible. I don't see any subsidies available in the USofA to replace the current crop of tow planes. Perhaps if our government wasn't subsidizing the safety of the rest of the world with our
On 1/13/2023 11:38 AM, [email protected] wrote:
On Friday, January 13, 2023 at 9:26:49 AM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 1/12/2023 3:32 PM, [email protected] wrote:
On Thursday, January 12, 2023 at 9:25:48 AM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
I guess if you have a long, hard surface runway, some head wind and a competent, heads up pilot behind you you could tow with a less powerful plane. Having had the glider's spoilers pop open more than once while towing with a Pawnee I can tell you
point of ground contact more than once . Well, now you have some Frenchman telling us how LSA are great towplanes and that the Pawnee is a dinosaur. I would really like for Jean to hook up behind the Towpecker and give us a critique of how to substituteYep, sign me up coach, I can tow! Where do these nut jobs come from? I just like you Walt have had many adventurous escapades in towing, spoilers out, high on takeoff, pulling your ass all over the place, the list goes on and on, I have pick out my
Walt Connelly
Former Tow Pilot
If the pilot has a tailwheel endorsement why do you think he could not fly a Pawnee? OBTPI agree that our safety margin would have been the greater with a Pawnee, because we'd beOur club used a 150 hp Citabria, which did a good job for us for many years. After 10The performance is the most critical issue, it also provides a greater safety margin! OBTP
years, we regretted we bought it instead of the tri-cycle gear Cessna 150/150 that was
also available at the time, but was more expensive. By the early 90's it was very
difficult to find willing pilots with enough tail dragger time to satisfy the insurance
requirements (or even common sense), and the Cessna would have increased the number of
potential towpilots by a factor of 5 or more. And how was how the club to train tow pilots
in a single seat tail dragger?
My point: the club circumstances must guide the aircraft choice, not just the performance
of the aircraft.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
on the ground all the time. There was zero likelihood we'd have found a pilot with Pawnee
experience that wanted to tow for us. The Citabria gave us 14 years of tows, no glider
accidents, no towplane accidents, except for a broken gear leg caused by an improper
repair in it's previous life. It's easier when there are two 4000' x 75' paved runways.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
On Thursday, January 12, 2023 at 12:06:39 AM UTC-5, 2G wrote:responsible. No need for a complex pilot's license, medical examination nor proof of skills, in Europe there are thousands of pilots available in this category. The 100 HP engine drinks a maximum of 4.7 gallons/h of Mogas, it tows a single-seater at more
On Monday, January 9, 2023 at 12:56:11 PM UTC-8, [email protected] wrote:
On Monday, January 9, 2023 at 2:08:21 PM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
Le lundi 9 janvier 2023 à 19:20:15 UTC+1, [email protected] a écrit :
On Monday, January 9, 2023 at 8:47:01 AM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 1/9/2023 4:34 AM, [email protected] wrote:
On Monday, January 9, 2023 at 5:21:44 AM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
Le dimanche 8 janvier 2023 à 09:43:10 UTC+1, [email protected] a écrit :
Eric, forget about towing with the Phoenix, it will not get the job done to any degree of satisfaction. You should get a better understanding from the tow pilots seat. OBTPMy dear "mister who knows everything and who has seen everything", and who pollutes this forum every day by giving lessons as God the father, I am revolted by your position.
Remember that there are no bad planes nor bad gliders, only bad pilots and readers will choose which category to classify you.
It is not possible to compare the Phoenix to the Pawnee, they are two completely different designs for two different uses and two different markets that have no relation to each other.
There are fifty years of difference between these two projects (2009 and 1959).
The first was designed in the ULM/LSA/ELA spirit where economy of use, light weight and simplicity of maintenance and use are the rules. No need for a certified engineer, no need for an official annual inspection, the owner is solely
off. In Europe, gliding is not a sport for the rich or the silver-heads and the economy is fundamental in allowing young people to start flying, without whom there is no future. Not to mention the noise which is the main negative factor for light
The neighboring club has already made more than 1,000 tows with the Phoenix, mainly light two-seater school (ASK13) or single-seater training gliders, at a cost of a fraction of that of the Pawnee. The long asphalt runway allows safe take
number is decreasing year after year. With its 235 HP, it consumes 4 times more than the Phoenix of a very polluting fuel which should disappear and which costs a fortune (nearly 1 US$/gallon in Europe). It is an aviation dinosaur.
The Pawnee was designed to fly with nearly one ton of water, its empty weight is more than double than the one of the Phoenix, it is submitted to maintenance rules that are as strict as they are costly with semi-professional pilots whose
is sometimes a long queue on the grid.
A neighboring club uses it to tow heavy gliders on a short runway, it is very popular when the wind is strong and turbulent, because it increases the safety altitude at the end of the runway. Qualified tow pilots are not numerous and there
doing with a Phoenix in this country. I really love it when someone tries to equate the 912 Rotax to the O-540, your looking at Godzilla vs a Chimpanzee. So until the time comes when I see Phoenix motorgliders on the grid I will continue to stick with
These two machines therefore have their own place in the gliding landscape, you just have to choose the right one for the right application.
Your statement “forget about towing with the Phoenix, it will not get the job done to any degree of satisfaction” therefore demonstrates a profound misunderstanding of the subject. You are not in a position to give a serious advice.
Cordial regards
jmc
7,000 hours in glider and light aircrafts, multi world record holder in glider, tow pilot on aircraft (since 1960 in a Fieseler Storch) and UL (since 2015). With absolutely no commercial interest in any sale of any aircraft.
to JMC
I am not impressed with your opinion on the Phoenix as a towplane, IMHO it is a platform that will not do the job to meet our needs, and it will not get the job done to any degree of satisfaction, maybe someone can tell me how well they are
with a Phoenix. I do about 1300 tows per year and when I hear someone comment about replacing the Pawnee with a motorglider as a tow plane I just shake my head and laugh. Maybe there are some qualified tow pilots in RAS that could give educated andJMC, thank you for your report on the value and utility of the Phoenix as a towplane in
Europe. It is more capable than I imagined.
Old Bob, you were giving me and many others advice, and it's advice that doesn't apply
when it's based only on your particular situation, which is very different from my
situation (and most others). I have 4000' of paved runway, at 400' elevation. With a
single person and enough fuel for a dozen+ launches, it climbs at 1500 fpm. Obviously, it
can easily launch the Russia AC-4 at my airport, the glider most likely to want a tow here.
And, the Phoenix has capabilities the Pawnee will never have: with the long wing tips,Eric, when you rely on such information as provided by UL then you should re-evaluate your thinking on towing with a motorglider, and since you have never towed maybe you should ask a few tow pilots on this forum about their concept of towing
it's a 30:1 glider ("only" 20:1 with the short tips), and can be used for glider training
(it's particularly good at cross-country training), and giving rides.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
describe. None of us will be alive to see the day when light sport replaces the Pawnee as the tow plane of choice. Thanks for leaving, people are always suspect when they pass gas and depart the room, you really stunk it up. OBTPTo all :To UL, AKA Jean
This forum is called “SOARING”. If someone makes 1300 tows per year, this means that he does not have time to understand real soaring, the one that make pilots dream.
The question is not to compare the Pawnee, which is ONLY a tow plane, to the Phoenix, which is a fine training self-launching glider, offering occasional towing capabilities.
The question is to compare an aging, heavy and very expensive but powerful post-war tow plane with modern Ultra-Light aircrafts. All types.
In Europe, we get subsidies to replace these old planes with an UL. One good reason is the protection of environment and noise, and then operating cost.
For sure I feel much more comfortable in towing with the good old Stinson L5 and its 235 HP (we have plenty) than with my UL with only 100 HP (not a Phoenix).
There are so many considerations to take into account that it could be a good reason for creating a specialized RAS.
The SOARING RAS is not the right place for that. We all lose time and energy. Please stop this stupid discussion. I leave.
Spring is coming, prepare your toys!
jm
I have a pretty good grip on real soaring, logged over 3200 hours in HP Glass, what you seem not to have a very good understanding of the power needed to make a safe tow. Our Pawnee's here in the USA are alive and well, and not dinosaurs as you
Hey PottyMouth, have you EVER towed with an UL? Just asking...DSM-5 Get help immediately, don't wait until you come to SLGP as you said you were coming, I have a surprise for you. OBTP
If the pilot has a tailwheel endorsement why do you think he could not
fly a Pawnee? OBTP
Insurance requirements for time in type, mainly. The other problem is training a tail wheel pilot to be a tow pilot. That was straight-forward
with the Citabria, but can't be done in a Pawnee.
On Thursday, January 12, 2023 at 4:37:22 AM UTC-8, [email protected] wrote:responsible. No need for a complex pilot's license, medical examination nor proof of skills, in Europe there are thousands of pilots available in this category. The 100 HP engine drinks a maximum of 4.7 gallons/h of Mogas, it tows a single-seater at more
On Thursday, January 12, 2023 at 12:06:39 AM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
On Monday, January 9, 2023 at 12:56:11 PM UTC-8, [email protected] wrote:
On Monday, January 9, 2023 at 2:08:21 PM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
Le lundi 9 janvier 2023 à 19:20:15 UTC+1, [email protected] a écrit :
On Monday, January 9, 2023 at 8:47:01 AM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 1/9/2023 4:34 AM, [email protected] wrote:
On Monday, January 9, 2023 at 5:21:44 AM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
Le dimanche 8 janvier 2023 à 09:43:10 UTC+1, [email protected] a écrit :
Eric, forget about towing with the Phoenix, it will not get the job done to any degree of satisfaction. You should get a better understanding from the tow pilots seat. OBTPMy dear "mister who knows everything and who has seen everything", and who pollutes this forum every day by giving lessons as God the father, I am revolted by your position.
Remember that there are no bad planes nor bad gliders, only bad pilots and readers will choose which category to classify you.
It is not possible to compare the Phoenix to the Pawnee, they are two completely different designs for two different uses and two different markets that have no relation to each other.
There are fifty years of difference between these two projects (2009 and 1959).
The first was designed in the ULM/LSA/ELA spirit where economy of use, light weight and simplicity of maintenance and use are the rules. No need for a certified engineer, no need for an official annual inspection, the owner is solely
take off. In Europe, gliding is not a sport for the rich or the silver-heads and the economy is fundamental in allowing young people to start flying, without whom there is no future. Not to mention the noise which is the main negative factor for light
The neighboring club has already made more than 1,000 tows with the Phoenix, mainly light two-seater school (ASK13) or single-seater training gliders, at a cost of a fraction of that of the Pawnee. The long asphalt runway allows safe
number is decreasing year after year. With its 235 HP, it consumes 4 times more than the Phoenix of a very polluting fuel which should disappear and which costs a fortune (nearly 1 US$/gallon in Europe). It is an aviation dinosaur.
The Pawnee was designed to fly with nearly one ton of water, its empty weight is more than double than the one of the Phoenix, it is submitted to maintenance rules that are as strict as they are costly with semi-professional pilots whose
there is sometimes a long queue on the grid.
A neighboring club uses it to tow heavy gliders on a short runway, it is very popular when the wind is strong and turbulent, because it increases the safety altitude at the end of the runway. Qualified tow pilots are not numerous and
are doing with a Phoenix in this country. I really love it when someone tries to equate the 912 Rotax to the O-540, your looking at Godzilla vs a Chimpanzee. So until the time comes when I see Phoenix motorgliders on the grid I will continue to stick
These two machines therefore have their own place in the gliding landscape, you just have to choose the right one for the right application.
Your statement “forget about towing with the Phoenix, it will not get the job done to any degree of satisfaction” therefore demonstrates a profound misunderstanding of the subject. You are not in a position to give a serious advice.
Cordial regards
jmc
7,000 hours in glider and light aircrafts, multi world record holder in glider, tow pilot on aircraft (since 1960 in a Fieseler Storch) and UL (since 2015). With absolutely no commercial interest in any sale of any aircraft.
to JMC
I am not impressed with your opinion on the Phoenix as a towplane, IMHO it is a platform that will not do the job to meet our needs, and it will not get the job done to any degree of satisfaction, maybe someone can tell me how well they
with a Phoenix. I do about 1300 tows per year and when I hear someone comment about replacing the Pawnee with a motorglider as a tow plane I just shake my head and laugh. Maybe there are some qualified tow pilots in RAS that could give educated andJMC, thank you for your report on the value and utility of the Phoenix as a towplane in
Europe. It is more capable than I imagined.
Old Bob, you were giving me and many others advice, and it's advice that doesn't apply
when it's based only on your particular situation, which is very different from my
situation (and most others). I have 4000' of paved runway, at 400' elevation. With a
single person and enough fuel for a dozen+ launches, it climbs at 1500 fpm. Obviously, it
can easily launch the Russia AC-4 at my airport, the glider most likely to want a tow here.
And, the Phoenix has capabilities the Pawnee will never have: with the long wing tips,Eric, when you rely on such information as provided by UL then you should re-evaluate your thinking on towing with a motorglider, and since you have never towed maybe you should ask a few tow pilots on this forum about their concept of towing
it's a 30:1 glider ("only" 20:1 with the short tips), and can be used for glider training
(it's particularly good at cross-country training), and giving rides.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
describe. None of us will be alive to see the day when light sport replaces the Pawnee as the tow plane of choice. Thanks for leaving, people are always suspect when they pass gas and depart the room, you really stunk it up. OBTPTo all :To UL, AKA Jean
This forum is called “SOARING”. If someone makes 1300 tows per year, this means that he does not have time to understand real soaring, the one that make pilots dream.
The question is not to compare the Pawnee, which is ONLY a tow plane, to the Phoenix, which is a fine training self-launching glider, offering occasional towing capabilities.
The question is to compare an aging, heavy and very expensive but powerful post-war tow plane with modern Ultra-Light aircrafts. All types.
In Europe, we get subsidies to replace these old planes with an UL. One good reason is the protection of environment and noise, and then operating cost.
For sure I feel much more comfortable in towing with the good old Stinson L5 and its 235 HP (we have plenty) than with my UL with only 100 HP (not a Phoenix).
There are so many considerations to take into account that it could be a good reason for creating a specialized RAS.
The SOARING RAS is not the right place for that. We all lose time and energy. Please stop this stupid discussion. I leave.
Spring is coming, prepare your toys!
jm
I have a pretty good grip on real soaring, logged over 3200 hours in HP Glass, what you seem not to have a very good understanding of the power needed to make a safe tow. Our Pawnee's here in the USA are alive and well, and not dinosaurs as you
DH, AKA DSM-5, TCSC is alive and well, many more years to go at X52. OBTPOk, PottyMouth, I will take that as an unqualified NO! Well, here is a video of an LS-8 actually being towed by a Phoenix:Hey PottyMouth, have you EVER towed with an UL? Just asking...DSM-5 Get help immediately, don't wait until you come to SLGP as you said you were coming, I have a surprise for you. OBTP
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjfG5X_P-10
Note that there are operating on GRASS, not pavement and that the takeoff roll was about 30 sec. I am guessing that this translates into about 1500 ft, so they could definitely operate on a 2000 ft strip.
BTW, how IS your hunt for a new strip going? Not well, is my guess.
Tom
On 1/13/2023 2:22 PM, [email protected] wrote:you that when it happens I want HORSEPOWER and as much of it as possible. I don't see any subsidies available in the USofA to replace the current crop of tow planes. Perhaps if our government wasn't subsidizing the safety of the rest of the world with
On Friday, January 13, 2023 at 3:34:07 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 1/13/2023 11:38 AM, [email protected] wrote:
On Friday, January 13, 2023 at 9:26:49 AM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote: >>>> On 1/12/2023 3:32 PM, [email protected] wrote:
On Thursday, January 12, 2023 at 9:25:48 AM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
I guess if you have a long, hard surface runway, some head wind and a competent, heads up pilot behind you you could tow with a less powerful plane. Having had the glider's spoilers pop open more than once while towing with a Pawnee I can tell
my point of ground contact more than once . Well, now you have some Frenchman telling us how LSA are great towplanes and that the Pawnee is a dinosaur. I would really like for Jean to hook up behind the Towpecker and give us a critique of how toYep, sign me up coach, I can tow! Where do these nut jobs come from? I just like you Walt have had many adventurous escapades in towing, spoilers out, high on takeoff, pulling your ass all over the place, the list goes on and on, I have pick out
Walt Connelly
Former Tow Pilot
Most Pawnees require a high power endorsement and a tail wheel endorsement, but IIRC, there is no time in type requirement as in other more challenging taildraggers. Our chief tow pilot has a launch profile taught to the tow pilot candidate and expectsInsurance requirements for time in type, mainly. The other problem is training a tailIf the pilot has a tailwheel endorsement why do you think he could not fly a Pawnee? OBTPI agree that our safety margin would have been the greater with a Pawnee, because we'd beOur club used a 150 hp Citabria, which did a good job for us for many years. After 10The performance is the most critical issue, it also provides a greater safety margin! OBTP
years, we regretted we bought it instead of the tri-cycle gear Cessna 150/150 that was
also available at the time, but was more expensive. By the early 90's it was very
difficult to find willing pilots with enough tail dragger time to satisfy the insurance
requirements (or even common sense), and the Cessna would have increased the number of
potential towpilots by a factor of 5 or more. And how was how the club to train tow pilots
in a single seat tail dragger?
My point: the club circumstances must guide the aircraft choice, not just the performance
of the aircraft.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
on the ground all the time. There was zero likelihood we'd have found a pilot with Pawnee
experience that wanted to tow for us. The Citabria gave us 14 years of tows, no glider
accidents, no towplane accidents, except for a broken gear leg caused by an improper
repair in it's previous life. It's easier when there are two 4000' x 75' paved runways.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
wheel pilot to be a tow pilot. That was straight-forward with the Citabria, but can't be
done in a Pawnee.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
On Friday, January 13, 2023 at 8:10:57 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:responsible. No need for a complex pilot's license, medical examination nor proof of skills, in Europe there are thousands of pilots available in this category. The 100 HP engine drinks a maximum of 4.7 gallons/h of Mogas, it tows a single-seater at more
On Thursday, January 12, 2023 at 4:37:22 AM UTC-8, [email protected] wrote:
On Thursday, January 12, 2023 at 12:06:39 AM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
On Monday, January 9, 2023 at 12:56:11 PM UTC-8, [email protected] wrote:
On Monday, January 9, 2023 at 2:08:21 PM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
Le lundi 9 janvier 2023 à 19:20:15 UTC+1, [email protected] a écrit :
On Monday, January 9, 2023 at 8:47:01 AM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 1/9/2023 4:34 AM, [email protected] wrote:
On Monday, January 9, 2023 at 5:21:44 AM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
Le dimanche 8 janvier 2023 à 09:43:10 UTC+1, [email protected] a écrit :
Eric, forget about towing with the Phoenix, it will not get the job done to any degree of satisfaction. You should get a better understanding from the tow pilots seat. OBTPMy dear "mister who knows everything and who has seen everything", and who pollutes this forum every day by giving lessons as God the father, I am revolted by your position.
Remember that there are no bad planes nor bad gliders, only bad pilots and readers will choose which category to classify you.
It is not possible to compare the Phoenix to the Pawnee, they are two completely different designs for two different uses and two different markets that have no relation to each other.
There are fifty years of difference between these two projects (2009 and 1959).
The first was designed in the ULM/LSA/ELA spirit where economy of use, light weight and simplicity of maintenance and use are the rules. No need for a certified engineer, no need for an official annual inspection, the owner is solely
take off. In Europe, gliding is not a sport for the rich or the silver-heads and the economy is fundamental in allowing young people to start flying, without whom there is no future. Not to mention the noise which is the main negative factor for light
The neighboring club has already made more than 1,000 tows with the Phoenix, mainly light two-seater school (ASK13) or single-seater training gliders, at a cost of a fraction of that of the Pawnee. The long asphalt runway allows safe
whose number is decreasing year after year. With its 235 HP, it consumes 4 times more than the Phoenix of a very polluting fuel which should disappear and which costs a fortune (nearly 1 US$/gallon in Europe). It is an aviation dinosaur.
The Pawnee was designed to fly with nearly one ton of water, its empty weight is more than double than the one of the Phoenix, it is submitted to maintenance rules that are as strict as they are costly with semi-professional pilots
there is sometimes a long queue on the grid.
A neighboring club uses it to tow heavy gliders on a short runway, it is very popular when the wind is strong and turbulent, because it increases the safety altitude at the end of the runway. Qualified tow pilots are not numerous and
These two machines therefore have their own place in the gliding landscape, you just have to choose the right one for the right application.
Your statement “forget about towing with the Phoenix, it will not get the job done to any degree of satisfaction” therefore demonstrates a profound misunderstanding of the subject. You are not in a position to give a serious advice.
are doing with a Phoenix in this country. I really love it when someone tries to equate the 912 Rotax to the O-540, your looking at Godzilla vs a Chimpanzee. So until the time comes when I see Phoenix motorgliders on the grid I will continue to stick
Cordial regards
jmc
7,000 hours in glider and light aircrafts, multi world record holder in glider, tow pilot on aircraft (since 1960 in a Fieseler Storch) and UL (since 2015). With absolutely no commercial interest in any sale of any aircraft.
to JMC
I am not impressed with your opinion on the Phoenix as a towplane, IMHO it is a platform that will not do the job to meet our needs, and it will not get the job done to any degree of satisfaction, maybe someone can tell me how well they
towing with a Phoenix. I do about 1300 tows per year and when I hear someone comment about replacing the Pawnee with a motorglider as a tow plane I just shake my head and laugh. Maybe there are some qualified tow pilots in RAS that could give educatedJMC, thank you for your report on the value and utility of the Phoenix as a towplane in
Europe. It is more capable than I imagined.
Old Bob, you were giving me and many others advice, and it's advice that doesn't apply
when it's based only on your particular situation, which is very different from my
situation (and most others). I have 4000' of paved runway, at 400' elevation. With a
single person and enough fuel for a dozen+ launches, it climbs at 1500 fpm. Obviously, it
can easily launch the Russia AC-4 at my airport, the glider most likely to want a tow here.
And, the Phoenix has capabilities the Pawnee will never have: with the long wing tips,Eric, when you rely on such information as provided by UL then you should re-evaluate your thinking on towing with a motorglider, and since you have never towed maybe you should ask a few tow pilots on this forum about their concept of
it's a 30:1 glider ("only" 20:1 with the short tips), and can be used for glider training
(it's particularly good at cross-country training), and giving rides.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
describe. None of us will be alive to see the day when light sport replaces the Pawnee as the tow plane of choice. Thanks for leaving, people are always suspect when they pass gas and depart the room, you really stunk it up. OBTPTo all :To UL, AKA Jean
This forum is called “SOARING”. If someone makes 1300 tows per year, this means that he does not have time to understand real soaring, the one that make pilots dream.
The question is not to compare the Pawnee, which is ONLY a tow plane, to the Phoenix, which is a fine training self-launching glider, offering occasional towing capabilities.
The question is to compare an aging, heavy and very expensive but powerful post-war tow plane with modern Ultra-Light aircrafts. All types.
In Europe, we get subsidies to replace these old planes with an UL. One good reason is the protection of environment and noise, and then operating cost.
For sure I feel much more comfortable in towing with the good old Stinson L5 and its 235 HP (we have plenty) than with my UL with only 100 HP (not a Phoenix).
There are so many considerations to take into account that it could be a good reason for creating a specialized RAS.
The SOARING RAS is not the right place for that. We all lose time and energy. Please stop this stupid discussion. I leave.
Spring is coming, prepare your toys!
jm
I have a pretty good grip on real soaring, logged over 3200 hours in HP Glass, what you seem not to have a very good understanding of the power needed to make a safe tow. Our Pawnee's here in the USA are alive and well, and not dinosaurs as you
Ok, PottyMouth, I will take that as an unqualified NO! Well, here is a video of an LS-8 actually being towed by a Phoenix:Hey PottyMouth, have you EVER towed with an UL? Just asking...DSM-5 Get help immediately, don't wait until you come to SLGP as you said you were coming, I have a surprise for you. OBTP
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjfG5X_P-10
Note that there are operating on GRASS, not pavement and that the takeoff roll was about 30 sec. I am guessing that this translates into about 1500 ft, so they could definitely operate on a 2000 ft strip.
BTW, how IS your hunt for a new strip going? Not well, is my guess.
TomDH, AKA DSM-5, TCSC is alive and well, many more years to go at X52. OBTP
On Friday, January 13, 2023 at 4:30:19 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:you that when it happens I want HORSEPOWER and as much of it as possible. I don't see any subsidies available in the USofA to replace the current crop of tow planes. Perhaps if our government wasn't subsidizing the safety of the rest of the world with
On 1/13/2023 2:22 PM, [email protected] wrote:
On Friday, January 13, 2023 at 3:34:07 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 1/13/2023 11:38 AM, [email protected] wrote:
On Friday, January 13, 2023 at 9:26:49 AM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote: >>>> On 1/12/2023 3:32 PM, [email protected] wrote:
On Thursday, January 12, 2023 at 9:25:48 AM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
I guess if you have a long, hard surface runway, some head wind and a competent, heads up pilot behind you you could tow with a less powerful plane. Having had the glider's spoilers pop open more than once while towing with a Pawnee I can tell
out my point of ground contact more than once . Well, now you have some Frenchman telling us how LSA are great towplanes and that the Pawnee is a dinosaur. I would really like for Jean to hook up behind the Towpecker and give us a critique of how toYep, sign me up coach, I can tow! Where do these nut jobs come from? I just like you Walt have had many adventurous escapades in towing, spoilers out, high on takeoff, pulling your ass all over the place, the list goes on and on, I have pick
Walt Connelly
Former Tow Pilot
to be followed and appears to have worked well over the years. Two things about Pawnees stand out to me. Time builders (for other ratings) need more supervision. All new tow pilots need to walk the airfield, especially the routes they take to/from theMost Pawnees require a high power endorsement and a tail wheel endorsement, but IIRC, there is no time in type requirement as in other more challenging taildraggers. Our chief tow pilot has a launch profile taught to the tow pilot candidate and expectsInsurance requirements for time in type, mainly. The other problem is training a tailIf the pilot has a tailwheel endorsement why do you think he could not fly a Pawnee? OBTPI agree that our safety margin would have been the greater with a Pawnee, because we'd beOur club used a 150 hp Citabria, which did a good job for us for many years. After 10The performance is the most critical issue, it also provides a greater safety margin! OBTP
years, we regretted we bought it instead of the tri-cycle gear Cessna 150/150 that was
also available at the time, but was more expensive. By the early 90's it was very
difficult to find willing pilots with enough tail dragger time to satisfy the insurance
requirements (or even common sense), and the Cessna would have increased the number of
potential towpilots by a factor of 5 or more. And how was how the club to train tow pilots
in a single seat tail dragger?
My point: the club circumstances must guide the aircraft choice, not just the performance
of the aircraft.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
on the ground all the time. There was zero likelihood we'd have found a pilot with Pawnee
experience that wanted to tow for us. The Citabria gave us 14 years of tows, no glider
accidents, no towplane accidents, except for a broken gear leg caused by an improper
repair in it's previous life. It's easier when there are two 4000' x 75' paved runways.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
wheel pilot to be a tow pilot. That was straight-forward with the Citabria, but can't be
done in a Pawnee.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
It took about 1:50 for the LS-8 to get level with the tug.
On Saturday, January 14, 2023 at 7:30:16 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:the frame was probably some camera mounting tape that came loose.
It took about 1:50 for the LS-8 to get level with the tug. And what was that hanging onto the leading edge of the Phoenix's left wing? I "captured" a corn husk in a thermal in Texas once...
DanI forgot to add that the LS-8 was carrying water ballast, which is why the Phoenix was airborne before the glider. I see the tow rope right in line with the fuselage, so that was their climb trajectory. The fluttering material at the right bottom of
5J
This video clearly disproves PottyMouth's claim that a ROTAX powered motorglider is incapable of towing a glider "to any degree of satisfaction" - I think that the LS-8 pilot was TOTALLY satisfied with the launch. I know I would be.
Tom
It took about 1:50 for the LS-8 to get level with the tug. And what was
that hanging onto the leading edge of the Phoenix's left wing? I
"captured" a corn husk in a thermal in Texas once...
Dan
5J
"Plenty of power" is a very subjective measurement. Adequate power for certain circumstances? Perhaps. I've towed some heavy rigs with a 260 horse Pawnee and then turned around and towed with a 235 and noticed the difference. Really appreciated theextra horses. On a hot day with a bit of crosswind you will want all the ponies in the remuda. And for the record, the Pawnee is a pussycat among taildraggers. If you can fly a super cub. you can fly a Pawnee, easily.
Walt Connelly
On Monday, January 16, 2023 at 5:05:46 AM UTC-8, [email protected] wrote:extra horses. On a hot day with a bit of crosswind you will want all the ponies in the remuda. And for the record, the Pawnee is a pussycat among taildraggers. If you can fly a super cub. you can fly a Pawnee, easily.
"Plenty of power" is a very subjective measurement. Adequate power for certain circumstances? Perhaps. I've towed some heavy rigs with a 260 horse Pawnee and then turned around and towed with a 235 and noticed the difference. Really appreciated the
Phoenix wins hands down. Yet another measure is the amount of noise generated in the vicinity of the airport, which, again, the Phoenix wins hands down. To conclude, the Phoenix wins in most categories. I am surprised that I have to explain this.Walt ConnellyOf course, "plenty of power" means that the tow can be safely performed with an adequate safety margin. It DOES NOT mean that a Phoenix can do as many tows per whatever as a Pawnee. Another measure of performance is the fuel required per tow, which the
TomTO Nutcase, You are crazier than a pet raccoon! OBTP
On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 6:22:55 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:motorglider and soaring for say 300 k and greater and then having to start the engine to return back to the departure point is a failure.
On 1/2/2023 12:07 PM, [email protected] wrote:
On Saturday, December 31, 2022 at 11:52:12 AM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:
On Friday, December 30, 2022 at 2:36:14 PM UTC-8, [email protected] wrote:Fitch, if I made ten cross country flights in a motorglider it would be 8 more than you have made in the last five years according to OLC, please correct me if I am wrong. Looks like the abject ignorance is part of your playbook.
Old Bob, The Purist has come up with my resolution for the new year. >>> Resolution #1- Be kind to motor glider pilotsNo. In fact if you had posted that tomorrow, it would have been self violating. I'd suggest an alternative:
Resolution #2- They cannot help being motor glider pilots
Resolution #3- Give those guys something to shoot for during the Geritol Classic at SLGP
Does anyone really think that I can adhere to the first two resolutions? Old Bob, The Purist
Resolution #1: Get at least 10 cross country flights in a motorglider so you would have even the slightest idea what you are talking about.
Resolution #2: After accomplishing #1, come back and critique motorgliders based on some knowledge, rather than abject ignorance.
How do those sound? My bet is you will not accomplish either of those sets of resolutions.
If a soaring pilot was to take ten cross country flights in a pure glider vs a motorglider it would be much more challenging, in my way of thinking the pure glider is much more challenging and dangerous than any motorglider. Getting in a
interesting, scores his flights then calls me to rattle my chain, it is all in fun and games. You also are invited to Vero, you may leave a better person. Your favorite purist, Old Bob, The PuristI have no problem with self launch motorgliders, I might just own one someday, Eileen and I could roll out on our runway and takeoff without assistance. There is nothing that I could find fault with that type of flight. R does that and it is
A lot to unpack. Starting with the safety part:
" in my way of thinking the pure glider is much more challenging and dangerous than any
motorglider."
I don't know how Old Bod decided a pure glider is much more dangerous than a motorglider;
in fact, I (and most MG pilots) think the towed glider is safer, because self-launching in
a motorglider is more complicated the taking a tow. And, unlike Old Bob, most of us have
thousands of hours in motorized AND towed gliders.
A towed glider pilot just gets in the tow line, waits his turn, follows the towplane, and
gets off in a thermal. His total exposure to the launch system is about 5 minutes. The MG
pilot has much more to do: he has to ensure the motor system is maintained and working
properly during the entire season, taxi safely to the launch point, determine it's safe to
take off, fly the glider and manage the engine, and finally do the shut-down and retraction.
A successful self-retrieve avoids the potential for damage or injury during an off-airport
landing, but managing the engine start exposes the pilot to potential mistakes and
distractions the towed glider pilot doesn't have. A common one is trying too long to save
the flight, then failing the restart and subsequent landing because there isn't enough
altitude left.
Please, please, anyone thinking of getting a motorglider DO NOT listen to Old Bob, because
he is not experienced enough with self-launchers give your good guidance, instead, read my
"A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" (link in the signature line) and talk to
actual motorglider pilots.
And now the "challenge" part: Old Bob should be able to understand that it's not the
glider type that determines the challenge, it's the pilot that determines the challenge.
Old Bob picks "soaring home" for his challenge, and his task is selected to provide the
amount of difficulty he wants. But, that's just Old Bob's choice, and it's not what makes
a pilot a Purist! Other pilots pick different challenges, like contests, record flying,
OLC points, or just getting as much out of a day as is possible. These challenges markedly
increase the chances of needing a retrieve, but they are just as "Purist" as the challenge
Old Bob has selected.
So remember, motorglider pilots get a motorglider for convenience and accept the increasedGood morning Eric hope all is well and calm out in that part of the country, here in Florida things are great and the weather is nice.
hazard they present. They get one because it provides more flights in more places, more
challenges than they could get with a towed glider. I hope Old Bob and Eileen get one
ASAP, so they can have even more fun, more adventures than they have now. --
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
On Tuesday, January 17, 2023 at 1:12:31 AM UTC-5, 2G wrote:extra horses. On a hot day with a bit of crosswind you will want all the ponies in the remuda. And for the record, the Pawnee is a pussycat among taildraggers. If you can fly a super cub. you can fly a Pawnee, easily.
On Monday, January 16, 2023 at 5:05:46 AM UTC-8, [email protected] wrote:
"Plenty of power" is a very subjective measurement. Adequate power for certain circumstances? Perhaps. I've towed some heavy rigs with a 260 horse Pawnee and then turned around and towed with a 235 and noticed the difference. Really appreciated the
the Phoenix wins hands down. Yet another measure is the amount of noise generated in the vicinity of the airport, which, again, the Phoenix wins hands down. To conclude, the Phoenix wins in most categories. I am surprised that I have to explain this.Walt ConnellyOf course, "plenty of power" means that the tow can be safely performed with an adequate safety margin. It DOES NOT mean that a Phoenix can do as many tows per whatever as a Pawnee. Another measure of performance is the fuel required per tow, which
TomTO Nutcase, You are crazier than a pet raccoon! OBTP
On Monday, January 9, 2023 at 5:21:44 AM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:need for a complex pilot's license, medical examination nor proof of skills, in Europe there are thousands of pilots available in this category. The 100 HP engine drinks a maximum of 4.7 gallons/h of Mogas, it tows a single-seater at more than 1,000 ft/
Le dimanche 8 janvier 2023 à 09:43:10 UTC+1, [email protected] a écrit :
Eric, forget about towing with the Phoenix, it will not get the job done to any degree of satisfaction. You should get a better understanding from the tow pilots seat. OBTPMy dear "mister who knows everything and who has seen everything", and who pollutes this forum every day by giving lessons as God the father, I am revolted by your position.
Remember that there are no bad planes nor bad gliders, only bad pilots and readers will choose which category to classify you.
It is not possible to compare the Phoenix to the Pawnee, they are two completely different designs for two different uses and two different markets that have no relation to each other.
There are fifty years of difference between these two projects (2009 and 1959).
The first was designed in the ULM/LSA/ELA spirit where economy of use, light weight and simplicity of maintenance and use are the rules. No need for a certified engineer, no need for an official annual inspection, the owner is solely responsible. No
Europe, gliding is not a sport for the rich or the silver-heads and the economy is fundamental in allowing young people to start flying, without whom there is no future. Not to mention the noise which is the main negative factor for light aviation.The neighboring club has already made more than 1,000 tows with the Phoenix, mainly light two-seater school (ASK13) or single-seater training gliders, at a cost of a fraction of that of the Pawnee. The long asphalt runway allows safe take off. In
decreasing year after year. With its 235 HP, it consumes 4 times more than the Phoenix of a very polluting fuel which should disappear and which costs a fortune (nearly 1 US$/gallon in Europe). It is an aviation dinosaur.The Pawnee was designed to fly with nearly one ton of water, its empty weight is more than double than the one of the Phoenix, it is submitted to maintenance rules that are as strict as they are costly with semi-professional pilots whose number is
sometimes a long queue on the grid.A neighboring club uses it to tow heavy gliders on a short runway, it is very popular when the wind is strong and turbulent, because it increases the safety altitude at the end of the runway. Qualified tow pilots are not numerous and there is
a Phoenix in this country. I really love it when someone tries to equate the 912 Rotax to the O-540, your looking at Godzilla vs a Chimpanzee. So until the time comes when I see Phoenix motorgliders on the grid I will continue to stick with the belovedThese two machines therefore have their own place in the gliding landscape, you just have to choose the right one for the right application.
Your statement “forget about towing with the Phoenix, it will not get the job done to any degree of satisfaction” therefore demonstrates a profound misunderstanding of the subject. You are not in a position to give a serious advice.
Cordial regards
jmc
7,000 hours in glider and light aircrafts, multi world record holder in glider, tow pilot on aircraft (since 1960 in a Fieseler Storch) and UL (since 2015). With absolutely no commercial interest in any sale of any aircraft.to JMC
I am not impressed with your opinion on the Phoenix as a towplane, IMHO it is a platform that will not do the job to meet our needs, and it will not get the job done to any degree of satisfaction, maybe someone can tell me how well they are doing with
On Monday, January 9, 2023 at 4:34:15 AM UTC-8, [email protected] wrote:No need for a complex pilot's license, medical examination nor proof of skills, in Europe there are thousands of pilots available in this category. The 100 HP engine drinks a maximum of 4.7 gallons/h of Mogas, it tows a single-seater at more than 1,000
On Monday, January 9, 2023 at 5:21:44 AM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
Le dimanche 8 janvier 2023 à 09:43:10 UTC+1, [email protected] a écrit :
Eric, forget about towing with the Phoenix, it will not get the job done to any degree of satisfaction. You should get a better understanding from the tow pilots seat. OBTPMy dear "mister who knows everything and who has seen everything", and who pollutes this forum every day by giving lessons as God the father, I am revolted by your position.
Remember that there are no bad planes nor bad gliders, only bad pilots and readers will choose which category to classify you.
It is not possible to compare the Phoenix to the Pawnee, they are two completely different designs for two different uses and two different markets that have no relation to each other.
There are fifty years of difference between these two projects (2009 and 1959).
The first was designed in the ULM/LSA/ELA spirit where economy of use, light weight and simplicity of maintenance and use are the rules. No need for a certified engineer, no need for an official annual inspection, the owner is solely responsible.
Europe, gliding is not a sport for the rich or the silver-heads and the economy is fundamental in allowing young people to start flying, without whom there is no future. Not to mention the noise which is the main negative factor for light aviation.The neighboring club has already made more than 1,000 tows with the Phoenix, mainly light two-seater school (ASK13) or single-seater training gliders, at a cost of a fraction of that of the Pawnee. The long asphalt runway allows safe take off. In
decreasing year after year. With its 235 HP, it consumes 4 times more than the Phoenix of a very polluting fuel which should disappear and which costs a fortune (nearly 1 US$/gallon in Europe). It is an aviation dinosaur.The Pawnee was designed to fly with nearly one ton of water, its empty weight is more than double than the one of the Phoenix, it is submitted to maintenance rules that are as strict as they are costly with semi-professional pilots whose number is
sometimes a long queue on the grid.A neighboring club uses it to tow heavy gliders on a short runway, it is very popular when the wind is strong and turbulent, because it increases the safety altitude at the end of the runway. Qualified tow pilots are not numerous and there is
with a Phoenix in this country. I really love it when someone tries to equate the 912 Rotax to the O-540, your looking at Godzilla vs a Chimpanzee. So until the time comes when I see Phoenix motorgliders on the grid I will continue to stick with theThese two machines therefore have their own place in the gliding landscape, you just have to choose the right one for the right application.
Your statement “forget about towing with the Phoenix, it will not get the job done to any degree of satisfaction” therefore demonstrates a profound misunderstanding of the subject. You are not in a position to give a serious advice.
Cordial regards
jmc
7,000 hours in glider and light aircrafts, multi world record holder in glider, tow pilot on aircraft (since 1960 in a Fieseler Storch) and UL (since 2015). With absolutely no commercial interest in any sale of any aircraft.to JMC
I am not impressed with your opinion on the Phoenix as a towplane, IMHO it is a platform that will not do the job to meet our needs, and it will not get the job done to any degree of satisfaction, maybe someone can tell me how well they are doing
This post by PottyMouth contains a PROVABLE lie - does ANYBODY see it? It's not hard. I will give you a day to figure it out, then I will disclose it.
Tom
On Wednesday, January 18, 2023 at 9:24:14 PM UTC-8, 2G wrote:No need for a complex pilot's license, medical examination nor proof of skills, in Europe there are thousands of pilots available in this category. The 100 HP engine drinks a maximum of 4.7 gallons/h of Mogas, it tows a single-seater at more than 1,000
On Monday, January 9, 2023 at 4:34:15 AM UTC-8, [email protected] wrote:
On Monday, January 9, 2023 at 5:21:44 AM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
Le dimanche 8 janvier 2023 à 09:43:10 UTC+1, [email protected] a écrit :
Eric, forget about towing with the Phoenix, it will not get the job done to any degree of satisfaction. You should get a better understanding from the tow pilots seat. OBTPMy dear "mister who knows everything and who has seen everything", and who pollutes this forum every day by giving lessons as God the father, I am revolted by your position.
Remember that there are no bad planes nor bad gliders, only bad pilots and readers will choose which category to classify you.
It is not possible to compare the Phoenix to the Pawnee, they are two completely different designs for two different uses and two different markets that have no relation to each other.
There are fifty years of difference between these two projects (2009 and 1959).
The first was designed in the ULM/LSA/ELA spirit where economy of use, light weight and simplicity of maintenance and use are the rules. No need for a certified engineer, no need for an official annual inspection, the owner is solely responsible.
Europe, gliding is not a sport for the rich or the silver-heads and the economy is fundamental in allowing young people to start flying, without whom there is no future. Not to mention the noise which is the main negative factor for light aviation.The neighboring club has already made more than 1,000 tows with the Phoenix, mainly light two-seater school (ASK13) or single-seater training gliders, at a cost of a fraction of that of the Pawnee. The long asphalt runway allows safe take off. In
is decreasing year after year. With its 235 HP, it consumes 4 times more than the Phoenix of a very polluting fuel which should disappear and which costs a fortune (nearly 1 US$/gallon in Europe). It is an aviation dinosaur.The Pawnee was designed to fly with nearly one ton of water, its empty weight is more than double than the one of the Phoenix, it is submitted to maintenance rules that are as strict as they are costly with semi-professional pilots whose number
sometimes a long queue on the grid.A neighboring club uses it to tow heavy gliders on a short runway, it is very popular when the wind is strong and turbulent, because it increases the safety altitude at the end of the runway. Qualified tow pilots are not numerous and there is
with a Phoenix in this country. I really love it when someone tries to equate the 912 Rotax to the O-540, your looking at Godzilla vs a Chimpanzee. So until the time comes when I see Phoenix motorgliders on the grid I will continue to stick with theThese two machines therefore have their own place in the gliding landscape, you just have to choose the right one for the right application.
Your statement “forget about towing with the Phoenix, it will not get the job done to any degree of satisfaction” therefore demonstrates a profound misunderstanding of the subject. You are not in a position to give a serious advice.
Cordial regards
jmc
7,000 hours in glider and light aircrafts, multi world record holder in glider, tow pilot on aircraft (since 1960 in a Fieseler Storch) and UL (since 2015). With absolutely no commercial interest in any sale of any aircraft.to JMC
I am not impressed with your opinion on the Phoenix as a towplane, IMHO it is a platform that will not do the job to meet our needs, and it will not get the job done to any degree of satisfaction, maybe someone can tell me how well they are doing
feet (http://www.airnav.com/airport/x52), still much longer than 2,000 feet.This post by PottyMouth contains a PROVABLE lie - does ANYBODY see it? It's not hard. I will give you a day to figure it out, then I will disclose it.
TomHmmm, PottyMouth is strangely silent - very uncharacteristic of him. Well, the lie is his claim that his runway is "2000 foot." On Google Earth it is about 3,800 feet, or nearly TWICE what PottyMouth said. If you look on AirNav X52 is listed at 3,120
The question is WHY would PottyMouth lie about this? He certainly MUST know what the length of his runway is - this is REQUIRED information prior to flying from an airport. But WHY does PottyMouth lie about ANYTHING?DSM-5 you poor demented soul, obviously you cannot read. My runway is FD25, I also take off from my own home strip. Please check out for yourself, my runway is 2000 feet, looks like you are a bigger fool than I thought. Actually my strip total length is
Tom
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 8:49:43 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:feet (http://www.airnav.com/airport/x52), still much longer than 2,000 feet.
...
Hmmm, PottyMouth is strangely silent - very uncharacteristic of him. Well, the lie is his claim that his runway is "2000 foot." On Google Earth it is about 3,800 feet, or nearly TWICE what PottyMouth said. If you look on AirNav X52 is listed at 3,120
is 2600 feet, but the distance between the threshold lights is 2000 as approved by FDOT aviation dept. Old Bob, The PuristDSM-5 you poor demented soul, obviously you cannot read. My runway is FD25, I also take off from my own home strip. Please check out for yourself, my runway is 2000 feet, looks like you are a bigger fool than I thought. Actually my strip total length
The question is WHY would PottyMouth lie about this? He certainly MUST know what the length of his runway is - this is REQUIRED information prior to flying from an airport. But WHY does PottyMouth lie about ANYTHING?
Tom
On 1/20/2023 4:06 AM, [email protected] wrote:120 feet (http://www.airnav.com/airport/x52), still much longer than 2,000 feet.
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 8:49:43 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
...
Hmmm, PottyMouth is strangely silent - very uncharacteristic of him. Well, the lie is his claim that his runway is "2000 foot." On Google Earth it is about 3,800 feet, or nearly TWICE what PottyMouth said. If you look on AirNav X52 is listed at 3,
is 2600 feet, but the distance between the threshold lights is 2000 as approved by FDOT aviation dept. Old Bob, The PuristDSM-5 you poor demented soul, obviously you cannot read. My runway is FD25, I also take off from my own home strip. Please check out for yourself, my runway is 2000 feet, looks like you are a bigger fool than I thought. Actually my strip total length
The question is WHY would PottyMouth lie about this? He certainly MUST know what the length of his runway is - this is REQUIRED information prior to flying from an airport. But WHY does PottyMouth lie about ANYTHING?
Tom
Well, Old Bob, you fooled me, too. I thought we were talking about towing club gliders outEric, I have towed many gliders out of my place, FD25, and I have towed Eileen and others from my place. 2000 feet between the threshold is no big deal, overall length is 2600 and the no obstruction on either end works well. The word, "MY" is a
of New Hibiscus. You did not mention FD25 until now; instead, you said "my 2000 foot
grass runway" which I assumed referred to what we were talking about - New Hibiscus. I
would not take a tow out of a 2000' grass strip, regardless of the towplane, nor would I
self-launch from one. I'd go down the road to a bigger airport.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 9:43:01 AM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:120 feet (http://www.airnav.com/airport/x52), still much longer than 2,000 feet.
On 1/20/2023 4:06 AM, [email protected] wrote:
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 8:49:43 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
...
Hmmm, PottyMouth is strangely silent - very uncharacteristic of him. Well, the lie is his claim that his runway is "2000 foot." On Google Earth it is about 3,800 feet, or nearly TWICE what PottyMouth said. If you look on AirNav X52 is listed at 3,
length is 2600 feet, but the distance between the threshold lights is 2000 as approved by FDOT aviation dept. Old Bob, The PuristDSM-5 you poor demented soul, obviously you cannot read. My runway is FD25, I also take off from my own home strip. Please check out for yourself, my runway is 2000 feet, looks like you are a bigger fool than I thought. Actually my strip total
The question is WHY would PottyMouth lie about this? He certainly MUST know what the length of his runway is - this is REQUIRED information prior to flying from an airport. But WHY does PottyMouth lie about ANYTHING?
Tom
possessive term, I know you engineers have difficulty with possessive nouns, remember almost any noun can become possessive. Lawyers have a better understanding of possessive nouns than most especially in divorce court where the wife or husband says, "Well, Old Bob, you fooled me, too. I thought we were talking about towing club gliders outEric, I have towed many gliders out of my place, FD25, and I have towed Eileen and others from my place. 2000 feet between the threshold is no big deal, overall length is 2600 and the no obstruction on either end works well. The word, "MY" is a
of New Hibiscus. You did not mention FD25 until now; instead, you said "my 2000 foot
grass runway" which I assumed referred to what we were talking about - New Hibiscus. I
would not take a tow out of a 2000' grass strip, regardless of the towplane, nor would I
self-launch from one. I'd go down the road to a bigger airport.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
Tell DSM-5 to get a better understanding of the English language, he certainly may have the handle on OHM's LAW in theory but not from a possessive noun point of view. Old Bob, The Purist
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