If anyone out there has any experience with the Anemoi wind estimation device, please comment. It looks interesting to me....
https://www.fly-anemoi.com/
Cheers,
Jim J6
For that kind of money, I'd look at the LXNAX-HAWK upgrade available for V9, V8, V80, S10 and S100 varios, plus the LX80x0 and LX90x0. Reviews have been outstanding.
From the Anemoi website:correct wind data during prolonged straight and level flight.
The core of the anemoi consists of a sophisticated 14-dimensional, non-linear Kalman filter combining inertial & pressure sensors and GPS-data. The result is a very precise measuring device, calibrating itself during flight and capable of delivering
It says the wind indication is updated during prolonged straight and level flight.
Why not circling flight?
From the Anemoi website:correct wind data during prolonged straight and level flight.
The core of the anemoi consists of a sophisticated 14-dimensional, non-linear Kalman filter combining inertial & pressure sensors and GPS-data. The result is a very precise measuring device, calibrating itself during flight and capable of delivering
It says the wind indication is updated during prolonged straight and level flight.
Why not circling flight?
Nick
T
This is the first time I've seen that system.
For that kind of money, I'd look at the LXNAX-HAWK upgrade available for V9, V8, V80, S10 and S100 varios, plus the LX80x0 and LX90x0. Reviews have been outstanding.
PA
If anyone out there has any experience with the Anemoi wind estimation device, please comment. It looks interesting to me....
https://www.fly-anemoi.com/
Cheers,
Jim J6
For those so inclined, in addition to the user manual, there is an
Interface doc for the link between the sensor and display. You can get
the attitude and wind state vectors at 15Hz for other things. Others do
the same on a CAN bus, but don't publish the formats. (A published
Airglide or S10+Hawk CanBus data item spec would be nice.)
-Stu
Stu,Glide Sensor Unit via CANaerospace bus and deliver a simple set of data via RS232 port (RJ45, standard IGC-Pinout for RS232c). Here is a link to a documentation page which contains the installation manual for this NMEA Unit: https://www.air-avionics.com/?
As I stated in a previous post, I currently have an Air Avionics vario (I guess officially called the "Air Glide Display S" and "Air Glide Sensor Unit") and I love it. I also have an "Air Glide NMEA Unit" (currently unused) which can connect to the Air
Before I discovered the Anemoi, I was considering making a custom display unit that would accept this Air Glide wind information (from the Kalman filter algorithm, e.g. "instantaneous winds") and the wind information from my OpenVario (XCSoar software)(the standard simple "average wind" algorithm) and overlay/display them on a dedicated display (my ultimate goal). But now with Anemoi it looks like I can get that sort of standalone/dedicated winds display "out of the box" without any development effort
Now I think I will just go with the Anemoi, but I sure would like to hear from someone who has flown with it....
Cheers,
Jim J6
On Tuesday, September 20, 2022 at 12:34:35 PM UTC-5, Stuart Venters wrote:
For those so inclined, in addition to the user manual, there is an Interface doc for the link between the sensor and display. You can get
the attitude and wind state vectors at 15Hz for other things. Others do the same on a CAN bus, but don't publish the formats. (A published Airglide or S10+Hawk CanBus data item spec would be nice.)
-Stu
The Air Avionics vario I currently have in my panel uses Kalman filter technology in its variometer function, and provides "instantaneous vario" display via its "blue ball". This "blue ball" is the Kalman filter based vario reading, and for me it worksgreat, I suspect providing similar information as the HAWK "blue pointer". The Air Avionics technology uses a slightly different sensor mix in its Kalman filter (it includes an error-prone magnetic compass sensor signal as one of it's inputs, HAWK and
What Air vario does is use that compass sensor, that works just fine when you install it according to installation manual. That gives you the true live wind, because the speed vector can be combined to heading info.
improper alignment with the airflow. Flying in a constant slip would also make the wind vector differ from actual. But of course, we NEVER do that.What Air vario does is use that compass sensor, that works just fine when you install it according to installation manual. That gives you the true live wind, because the speed vector can be combined to heading info.
This is, of course, assuming that your yaw string is straight. If your nose is drifting left and right and the yaw string looks like a windshield wiper, the information from the compass is going to be skewed also. The GPS track cannot compensate for
Jim, perhaps you need to updgrade to iGlide, which allows display of real time wind and average wind :-).
On 9/21/2022 3:14 AM, krasw wrote:better wind info anywhere. You might find an instrument that has a bigger wind arrow, and if that is what you need, then good luck!
..
What Air vario does is use that compass sensor, that works just fine when you install it according to installation manual. That gives you the true live wind, because the speed vector can be combined to heading info. I seriously doubt you will find
User reports indicate Hawk works at least as well as the Air/Butterfly vario, and has
significant advantages over the Air/Butterfly: it's in current production, it is supported
by the manufacturer, it has an active user group, and is continuing to be developed. For
all those reasons, I am no longer concerned about losing the Air vario and it's excellent
wind determination when I eventually replace it with an LXNav 9000/9070 display and V8 vario.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
What Air vario does is use that compass sensor, that works just fine when you install it according to installation manual. That gives you the true live wind, because the speed vector can be combined to heading info. I seriously doubt you will findbetter wind info anywhere. You might find an instrument that has a bigger wind arrow, and if that is what you need, then good luck!
Kalman filter is not some latest and greatest computer magic, it is a very old technique to remove systematic bias from signal. Most common would be your everyday weather forecast. Let's say your temperature forecast for yesterday was 100 deg, andobservation 105 deg. Kalman-corrected temperature forecast for tomorrow (in same conditions) would add that 5 degrees to forecast based on yesterday's forecast error. (To be accurate, weather forecasting moved from Kalman to modern signal processing
So, it is no magic, just common signal filtering. Now what can computer do without that compass signal? Just look for small differences between consecutive speed vectors, and try to calculate wind vector based on comparing these. For identical speedvectors (straight flight), you still get no meaningful data. And almost straight flight leads to unreliable data (as HAWK users have told). Same thing with Anemoi. This is all you can do with no compass data.
What Air vario does is use that compass sensor, that works just fine when you install it according to installation manual. That gives you the true live wind, because the speed vector can be combined to heading info. I seriously doubt you will findbetter wind info anywhere. You might find an instrument that has a bigger wind arrow, and if that is what you need, then good luck!
On Wednesday, 21 September 2022 at 18:17:02 UTC+3, Eric Greenwell wrote:better wind info anywhere. You might find an instrument that has a bigger wind arrow, and if that is what you need, then good luck!
On 9/21/2022 3:14 AM, krasw wrote:
..
What Air vario does is use that compass sensor, that works just fine when you install it according to installation manual. That gives you the true live wind, because the speed vector can be combined to heading info. I seriously doubt you will find
good enough for most pilots.User reports indicate Hawk works at least as well as the Air/Butterfly vario, and has
significant advantages over the Air/Butterfly: it's in current production, it is supported
by the manufacturer, it has an active user group, and is continuing to be developed. For
all those reasons, I am no longer concerned about losing the Air vario and it's excellent
wind determination when I eventually replace it with an LXNav 9000/9070 display and V8 vario.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
I have heard user reports that wind in straight flight is not that reliable, and saying that wind measurement would be "as good as" system with 3D-compass sensor is just not based on understanding what is possible with these systems. I bet Hawk can be
The thing with these high-end systems is that there are very few pilots that can tell if wind measurement (or vario signal) is good or bad. You won't believe how many LX9000 systems I have seen are on factory default settings, and with pilots hardlyknowing how to change vario from climb to cruise mode (I kid you not). These guys are happy with wind arrow pointing to any direction.
Seriously think that someone looking for better wind measuring instrument would make a mistake by taking their working Air system off.
On 9/21/2022 8:55 AM, krasw wrote:better wind info anywhere. You might find an instrument that has a bigger wind arrow, and if that is what you need, then good luck!
On Wednesday, 21 September 2022 at 18:17:02 UTC+3, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 9/21/2022 3:14 AM, krasw wrote:
..
What Air vario does is use that compass sensor, that works just fine when you install it according to installation manual. That gives you the true live wind, because the speed vector can be combined to heading info. I seriously doubt you will find
be good enough for most pilots.User reports indicate Hawk works at least as well as the Air/Butterfly vario, and has
significant advantages over the Air/Butterfly: it's in current production, it is supported
by the manufacturer, it has an active user group, and is continuing to be developed. For
all those reasons, I am no longer concerned about losing the Air vario and it's excellent
wind determination when I eventually replace it with an LXNav 9000/9070 display and V8 vario.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
I have heard user reports that wind in straight flight is not that reliable, and saying that wind measurement would be "as good as" system with 3D-compass sensor is just not based on understanding what is possible with these systems. I bet Hawk can
knowing how to change vario from climb to cruise mode (I kid you not). These guys are happy with wind arrow pointing to any direction.The thing with these high-end systems is that there are very few pilots that can tell if wind measurement (or vario signal) is good or bad. You won't believe how many LX9000 systems I have seen are on factory default settings, and with pilots hardly
Jim (J6) and All,Seriously think that someone looking for better wind measuring instrument would make a mistake by taking their working Air system off.I'm not looking for better wind measuring, but do want one that integrates with an
LX900xx, is supported, and still being improved. "Still being improved" means Hawk could
be better than the Air Avionics vario, sooner or later.
I'm not completely committed to doing without the Air Avionics vario, as there are other
reasons for keeping it: since it is independent of the LX90xx, it provides backups for a
final glide computer, a backup vario, and an AHRS.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
I've been flying with an Anemoi for a few months in the Sugarbush VT area. Assuming the displayed information is accurate, wind interacting with terrain is much more complicated than I had previously imagined. Real time and average wind magnitude anddirection diverge in surprising ways when there is convection, sometimes opposed by 180 degrees.
Good inputs, thanks.wonder if the Anemoi winds calculation is any good, hence this post. Right now, to get this instantaneous vs average comparison, I need to bounce between the wind arrow on my Air Avionics vario and the wind arrow on my OpenVario (XCSoar). A pain.
Yes, the Kalman filter is not magic, just math, but definitely a brilliant insight and breakthrough. Here is a great info source on Kalman filters, a bit of history and background and then some of the math:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalman_filter
Note that (according to this page) one of the earliest practical applications of the Kalman filter was the Apollo navigation computer. Very cool.
A "very old technique"? Hey, I resemble that remark! Kalman first published on this in 1960, and I was born in 1955, you trying to make me feel "very old"? Its working.... Hahahaha!
And speaking of "very old", YES my 67 year old eyes could use a bigger arrow than on the Air Avionics display! Or any other wind arrow I've seen in a glider cockpit so far! Hahahaha!
Seriously, what I really want is an understandable-at-a-glance dedicated display (large format preferred, remember 67 year old eyes....) showing average and instantaneous winds simultaneously. The Anemoi display seems to fit the bill for me - but I
Regarding magnetic compass as a dimension in the Kalman filter, I fully concur that mag compass input to the Kalman filter improves the calculation, as long as its errors are kept low - yes you must have a proper installation. My Air Avionics sensorbox installation (under the glareshield in my ASH-26E) is pretty much at the minimum recommended distances from possible corrupting magnetic field sources, and it seems to perform quite well in both wind and vario performance. In over 300 hours of flying
So there are reports that Anemoi (and HAWK?) have problems with unreliable data in straight flight mode? The Anemoi manual does acknowledge that particular characteristic, and they recommend executing three to four >10 deg heading changes after a longstraight smooth glide before winds can be considered reliable. I would like to hear from an experienced Anemoi user if this technique truly does work, and if it is or is not onerous in the applicable situations.... And also how well Anemoi winds work in
I just saw your new post noting "Seriously think that someone looking for better wind measuring instrument would make a mistake by taking their working Air system off." I couldn't agree more! I love my Air Avionics vario (winds and vario), and have nointention of removing it. In fact, I have acquired a spare, in case the one in my '26 breaks. I just want an understandable-at-a-glance dedicated display of both instantaneous and average winds. Jon has suggested iGlide (which I believe links into the
Hoping to hear from some Anemoi users soon. If you would rather go private, contact me at julietsix at gmail dot comobservation 105 deg. Kalman-corrected temperature forecast for tomorrow (in same conditions) would add that 5 degrees to forecast based on yesterday's forecast error. (To be accurate, weather forecasting moved from Kalman to modern signal processing
Cheers,
Jim J6
On Wednesday, September 21, 2022 at 5:14:05 AM UTC-5, krasw wrote:
Kalman filter is not some latest and greatest computer magic, it is a very old technique to remove systematic bias from signal. Most common would be your everyday weather forecast. Let's say your temperature forecast for yesterday was 100 deg, and
vectors (straight flight), you still get no meaningful data. And almost straight flight leads to unreliable data (as HAWK users have told). Same thing with Anemoi. This is all you can do with no compass data.So, it is no magic, just common signal filtering. Now what can computer do without that compass signal? Just look for small differences between consecutive speed vectors, and try to calculate wind vector based on comparing these. For identical speed
better wind info anywhere. You might find an instrument that has a bigger wind arrow, and if that is what you need, then good luck!What Air vario does is use that compass sensor, that works just fine when you install it according to installation manual. That gives you the true live wind, because the speed vector can be combined to heading info. I seriously doubt you will find
The Air Vario link to the iPhone is WiFi, not Bluetooth. Hard to get visibility into what is transmitted, but a whole lot more than is in the LX sentences sent on their NMEA converter box. Among the Navboxes that can be configured are 'True Wind". Aconstant display (might not be big enough for your wishes) are two vectors surrounding your glider icon, representing (I believe...) real time and average. It is however easier for me to follow the vector displayed in the Navbox on the Display S.
I have three sources of wind data and the Air Vario is the most reliable by some distance, and the only one that responds to momentary changes. In steady state straight flight, they all agree somewhat. The iGlide thermal assistant draws the familiargreen lift dots, but also puts inside each, one per second, an instantaneous wind vector. If you believe this, the wind surrounding (at least a strong western thermal) is quite dynamic, with the vectors tending to point towards the center of lift. I have
On Wednesday, September 21, 2022 at 9:21:41 AM UTC-7, J6 aka Airport Bum wrote:wonder if the Anemoi winds calculation is any good, hence this post. Right now, to get this instantaneous vs average comparison, I need to bounce between the wind arrow on my Air Avionics vario and the wind arrow on my OpenVario (XCSoar). A pain.
Good inputs, thanks.
Yes, the Kalman filter is not magic, just math, but definitely a brilliant insight and breakthrough. Here is a great info source on Kalman filters, a bit of history and background and then some of the math:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalman_filter
Note that (according to this page) one of the earliest practical applications of the Kalman filter was the Apollo navigation computer. Very cool.
A "very old technique"? Hey, I resemble that remark! Kalman first published on this in 1960, and I was born in 1955, you trying to make me feel "very old"? Its working.... Hahahaha!
And speaking of "very old", YES my 67 year old eyes could use a bigger arrow than on the Air Avionics display! Or any other wind arrow I've seen in a glider cockpit so far! Hahahaha!
Seriously, what I really want is an understandable-at-a-glance dedicated display (large format preferred, remember 67 year old eyes....) showing average and instantaneous winds simultaneously. The Anemoi display seems to fit the bill for me - but I
box installation (under the glareshield in my ASH-26E) is pretty much at the minimum recommended distances from possible corrupting magnetic field sources, and it seems to perform quite well in both wind and vario performance. In over 300 hours of flyingRegarding magnetic compass as a dimension in the Kalman filter, I fully concur that mag compass input to the Kalman filter improves the calculation, as long as its errors are kept low - yes you must have a proper installation. My Air Avionics sensor
long straight smooth glide before winds can be considered reliable. I would like to hear from an experienced Anemoi user if this technique truly does work, and if it is or is not onerous in the applicable situations.... And also how well Anemoi windsSo there are reports that Anemoi (and HAWK?) have problems with unreliable data in straight flight mode? The Anemoi manual does acknowledge that particular characteristic, and they recommend executing three to four >10 deg heading changes after a
no intention of removing it. In fact, I have acquired a spare, in case the one in my '26 breaks. I just want an understandable-at-a-glance dedicated display of both instantaneous and average winds. Jon has suggested iGlide (which I believe links into theI just saw your new post noting "Seriously think that someone looking for better wind measuring instrument would make a mistake by taking their working Air system off." I couldn't agree more! I love my Air Avionics vario (winds and vario), and have
observation 105 deg. Kalman-corrected temperature forecast for tomorrow (in same conditions) would add that 5 degrees to forecast based on yesterday's forecast error. (To be accurate, weather forecasting moved from Kalman to modern signal processingHoping to hear from some Anemoi users soon. If you would rather go private, contact me at julietsix at gmail dot com
Cheers,
Jim J6
On Wednesday, September 21, 2022 at 5:14:05 AM UTC-5, krasw wrote:
Kalman filter is not some latest and greatest computer magic, it is a very old technique to remove systematic bias from signal. Most common would be your everyday weather forecast. Let's say your temperature forecast for yesterday was 100 deg, and
speed vectors (straight flight), you still get no meaningful data. And almost straight flight leads to unreliable data (as HAWK users have told). Same thing with Anemoi. This is all you can do with no compass data.So, it is no magic, just common signal filtering. Now what can computer do without that compass signal? Just look for small differences between consecutive speed vectors, and try to calculate wind vector based on comparing these. For identical
better wind info anywhere. You might find an instrument that has a bigger wind arrow, and if that is what you need, then good luck!What Air vario does is use that compass sensor, that works just fine when you install it according to installation manual. That gives you the true live wind, because the speed vector can be combined to heading info. I seriously doubt you will find
Got my beer and popcorn ready..........Yep Dan, things are really getting bazaar here on RAS, I wish they would take this kind of stuff over to RAS Prime, what in the heck will they come up with next, a directional survey of the urine discharge. I guess I am way too old for this kind of
Danconstant display (might not be big enough for your wishes) are two vectors surrounding your glider icon, representing (I believe...) real time and average. It is however easier for me to follow the vector displayed in the Navbox on the Display S.
5J
On 9/22/22 14:28, [email protected] wrote:
On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 3:48:43 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
The Air Vario link to the iPhone is WiFi, not Bluetooth. Hard to get visibility into what is transmitted, but a whole lot more than is in the LX sentences sent on their NMEA converter box. Among the Navboxes that can be configured are 'True Wind". A
green lift dots, but also puts inside each, one per second, an instantaneous wind vector. If you believe this, the wind surrounding (at least a strong western thermal) is quite dynamic, with the vectors tending to point towards the center of lift. I have
I have three sources of wind data and the Air Vario is the most reliable by some distance, and the only one that responds to momentary changes. In steady state straight flight, they all agree somewhat. The iGlide thermal assistant draws the familiar
wonder if the Anemoi winds calculation is any good, hence this post. Right now, to get this instantaneous vs average comparison, I need to bounce between the wind arrow on my Air Avionics vario and the wind arrow on my OpenVario (XCSoar). A pain.On Wednesday, September 21, 2022 at 9:21:41 AM UTC-7, J6 aka Airport Bum wrote:
Good inputs, thanks.
Yes, the Kalman filter is not magic, just math, but definitely a brilliant insight and breakthrough. Here is a great info source on Kalman filters, a bit of history and background and then some of the math:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalman_filter
Note that (according to this page) one of the earliest practical applications of the Kalman filter was the Apollo navigation computer. Very cool.
A "very old technique"? Hey, I resemble that remark! Kalman first published on this in 1960, and I was born in 1955, you trying to make me feel "very old"? Its working.... Hahahaha!
And speaking of "very old", YES my 67 year old eyes could use a bigger arrow than on the Air Avionics display! Or any other wind arrow I've seen in a glider cockpit so far! Hahahaha!
Seriously, what I really want is an understandable-at-a-glance dedicated display (large format preferred, remember 67 year old eyes....) showing average and instantaneous winds simultaneously. The Anemoi display seems to fit the bill for me - but I
sensor box installation (under the glareshield in my ASH-26E) is pretty much at the minimum recommended distances from possible corrupting magnetic field sources, and it seems to perform quite well in both wind and vario performance. In over 300 hours of
Regarding magnetic compass as a dimension in the Kalman filter, I fully concur that mag compass input to the Kalman filter improves the calculation, as long as its errors are kept low - yes you must have a proper installation. My Air Avionics
long straight smooth glide before winds can be considered reliable. I would like to hear from an experienced Anemoi user if this technique truly does work, and if it is or is not onerous in the applicable situations.... And also how well Anemoi winds
So there are reports that Anemoi (and HAWK?) have problems with unreliable data in straight flight mode? The Anemoi manual does acknowledge that particular characteristic, and they recommend executing three to four >10 deg heading changes after a
no intention of removing it. In fact, I have acquired a spare, in case the one in my '26 breaks. I just want an understandable-at-a-glance dedicated display of both instantaneous and average winds. Jon has suggested iGlide (which I believe links into the
I just saw your new post noting "Seriously think that someone looking for better wind measuring instrument would make a mistake by taking their working Air system off." I couldn't agree more! I love my Air Avionics vario (winds and vario), and have
observation 105 deg. Kalman-corrected temperature forecast for tomorrow (in same conditions) would add that 5 degrees to forecast based on yesterday's forecast error. (To be accurate, weather forecasting moved from Kalman to modern signal processing
Hoping to hear from some Anemoi users soon. If you would rather go private, contact me at julietsix at gmail dot com
Cheers,
Jim J6
On Wednesday, September 21, 2022 at 5:14:05 AM UTC-5, krasw wrote:
Kalman filter is not some latest and greatest computer magic, it is a very old technique to remove systematic bias from signal. Most common would be your everyday weather forecast. Let's say your temperature forecast for yesterday was 100 deg, and
speed vectors (straight flight), you still get no meaningful data. And almost straight flight leads to unreliable data (as HAWK users have told). Same thing with Anemoi. This is all you can do with no compass data.
So, it is no magic, just common signal filtering. Now what can computer do without that compass signal? Just look for small differences between consecutive speed vectors, and try to calculate wind vector based on comparing these. For identical
better wind info anywhere. You might find an instrument that has a bigger wind arrow, and if that is what you need, then good luck!
What Air vario does is use that compass sensor, that works just fine when you install it according to installation manual. That gives you the true live wind, because the speed vector can be combined to heading info. I seriously doubt you will find
that will give you wind direction, can't you guys figure it out, or is it a motorglider thing?? If you are so inept to look at your GS and AS, and drift, then what the heck is some instrument that is not even proven going to do for you? I tell you whatI am quiet confused by all the bloviation concerning instrumentation to assist in wind direction. Please help me out, some speak of wind sheer, others speak of thermal centering and I am quiet confused by the importance placed on some new instrument
are better off looking at the clouds and the ground to see what is going on. This is absolutely comical, go back to the basics. Old Bob, The PuristWe fly in more wind sheer than anywhere in the country, it last for twelve months here in Fl, and the same with convergence. I have never used wind direction to determine where the center of the thermal is, also never used it to determine sheer, you
On 9/22/2022 1:28 PM, [email protected] wrote:constant display (might not be big enough for your wishes) are two vectors surrounding your glider icon, representing (I believe...) real time and average. It is however easier for me to follow the vector displayed in the Navbox on the Display S.
On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 3:48:43 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
The Air Vario link to the iPhone is WiFi, not Bluetooth. Hard to get visibility into what is transmitted, but a whole lot more than is in the LX sentences sent on their NMEA converter box. Among the Navboxes that can be configured are 'True Wind". A
green lift dots, but also puts inside each, one per second, an instantaneous wind vector. If you believe this, the wind surrounding (at least a strong western thermal) is quite dynamic, with the vectors tending to point towards the center of lift. I have
I have three sources of wind data and the Air Vario is the most reliable by some distance, and the only one that responds to momentary changes. In steady state straight flight, they all agree somewhat. The iGlide thermal assistant draws the familiar
...that will give you wind direction, can't you guys figure it out, or is it a motorglider thing?? If you are so inept to look at your GS and AS, and drift, then what the heck is some instrument that is not even proven going to do for you? I tell you what
I am quiet confused by all the bloviation concerning instrumentation to assist in wind direction. Please help me out, some speak of wind sheer, others speak of thermal centering and I am quiet confused by the importance placed on some new instrument
are better off looking at the clouds and the ground to see what is going on. This is absolutely comical, go back to the basics. Old Bob, The PuristWe fly in more wind sheer than anywhere in the country, it last for twelve months here in Fl, and the same with convergence. I have never used wind direction to determine where the center of the thermal is, also never used it to determine sheer, you
You have never had an "instantaneous" wind display, so it follows you have never used oneEric, you better get off that crack pipe and get realistic. I wish that you had experienced the flights that I have experienced through convective activity here in Florida. Come on down and we will fly through thunderboomers and watch the light show
for anything. You also fly over flat ground hundreds of miles from mountains and hills
that disturb and twist the wind. Given your inexperience with instant wind and in an area
with simple geography, you really should try one before mocking the pilots using them, and
you should look around, and notice which pilots are using these instruments, or at least
testing them. There are many successful pilots looking for better wind, or a replacement
for the no-longer-supported Butterfly/Air Avionics vario.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 3:48:43 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:constant display (might not be big enough for your wishes) are two vectors surrounding your glider icon, representing (I believe...) real time and average. It is however easier for me to follow the vector displayed in the Navbox on the Display S.
The Air Vario link to the iPhone is WiFi, not Bluetooth. Hard to get visibility into what is transmitted, but a whole lot more than is in the LX sentences sent on their NMEA converter box. Among the Navboxes that can be configured are 'True Wind". A
green lift dots, but also puts inside each, one per second, an instantaneous wind vector. If you believe this, the wind surrounding (at least a strong western thermal) is quite dynamic, with the vectors tending to point towards the center of lift. I haveI have three sources of wind data and the Air Vario is the most reliable by some distance, and the only one that responds to momentary changes. In steady state straight flight, they all agree somewhat. The iGlide thermal assistant draws the familiar
wonder if the Anemoi winds calculation is any good, hence this post. Right now, to get this instantaneous vs average comparison, I need to bounce between the wind arrow on my Air Avionics vario and the wind arrow on my OpenVario (XCSoar). A pain.On Wednesday, September 21, 2022 at 9:21:41 AM UTC-7, J6 aka Airport Bum wrote:
Good inputs, thanks.
Yes, the Kalman filter is not magic, just math, but definitely a brilliant insight and breakthrough. Here is a great info source on Kalman filters, a bit of history and background and then some of the math:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalman_filter
Note that (according to this page) one of the earliest practical applications of the Kalman filter was the Apollo navigation computer. Very cool.
A "very old technique"? Hey, I resemble that remark! Kalman first published on this in 1960, and I was born in 1955, you trying to make me feel "very old"? Its working.... Hahahaha!
And speaking of "very old", YES my 67 year old eyes could use a bigger arrow than on the Air Avionics display! Or any other wind arrow I've seen in a glider cockpit so far! Hahahaha!
Seriously, what I really want is an understandable-at-a-glance dedicated display (large format preferred, remember 67 year old eyes....) showing average and instantaneous winds simultaneously. The Anemoi display seems to fit the bill for me - but I
sensor box installation (under the glareshield in my ASH-26E) is pretty much at the minimum recommended distances from possible corrupting magnetic field sources, and it seems to perform quite well in both wind and vario performance. In over 300 hours ofRegarding magnetic compass as a dimension in the Kalman filter, I fully concur that mag compass input to the Kalman filter improves the calculation, as long as its errors are kept low - yes you must have a proper installation. My Air Avionics
long straight smooth glide before winds can be considered reliable. I would like to hear from an experienced Anemoi user if this technique truly does work, and if it is or is not onerous in the applicable situations.... And also how well Anemoi windsSo there are reports that Anemoi (and HAWK?) have problems with unreliable data in straight flight mode? The Anemoi manual does acknowledge that particular characteristic, and they recommend executing three to four >10 deg heading changes after a
no intention of removing it. In fact, I have acquired a spare, in case the one in my '26 breaks. I just want an understandable-at-a-glance dedicated display of both instantaneous and average winds. Jon has suggested iGlide (which I believe links into theI just saw your new post noting "Seriously think that someone looking for better wind measuring instrument would make a mistake by taking their working Air system off." I couldn't agree more! I love my Air Avionics vario (winds and vario), and have
and observation 105 deg. Kalman-corrected temperature forecast for tomorrow (in same conditions) would add that 5 degrees to forecast based on yesterday's forecast error. (To be accurate, weather forecasting moved from Kalman to modern signal processingHoping to hear from some Anemoi users soon. If you would rather go private, contact me at julietsix at gmail dot com
Cheers,
Jim J6
On Wednesday, September 21, 2022 at 5:14:05 AM UTC-5, krasw wrote:
Kalman filter is not some latest and greatest computer magic, it is a very old technique to remove systematic bias from signal. Most common would be your everyday weather forecast. Let's say your temperature forecast for yesterday was 100 deg,
speed vectors (straight flight), you still get no meaningful data. And almost straight flight leads to unreliable data (as HAWK users have told). Same thing with Anemoi. This is all you can do with no compass data.So, it is no magic, just common signal filtering. Now what can computer do without that compass signal? Just look for small differences between consecutive speed vectors, and try to calculate wind vector based on comparing these. For identical
find better wind info anywhere. You might find an instrument that has a bigger wind arrow, and if that is what you need, then good luck!What Air vario does is use that compass sensor, that works just fine when you install it according to installation manual. That gives you the true live wind, because the speed vector can be combined to heading info. I seriously doubt you will
I am quiet confused by all the bloviation concerning instrumentation to assist in wind direction. Please help me out, some speak of wind sheer, others speak of thermal centering and I am quiet confused by the importance placed on some new instrumentthat will give you wind direction, can't you guys figure it out, or is it a motorglider thing?? If you are so inept to look at your GS and AS, and drift, then what the heck is some instrument that is not even proven going to do for you? I tell you what
We fly in more wind sheer than anywhere in the country, it last for twelve months here in Fl, and the same with convergence. I have never used wind direction to determine where the center of the thermal is, also never used it to determine sheer, youare better off looking at the clouds and the ground to see what is going on. This is absolutely comical, go back to the basics. Old Bob, The Purist
On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 3:28:09 PM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:A constant display (might not be big enough for your wishes) are two vectors surrounding your glider icon, representing (I believe...) real time and average. It is however easier for me to follow the vector displayed in the Navbox on the Display S.
On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 3:48:43 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
The Air Vario link to the iPhone is WiFi, not Bluetooth. Hard to get visibility into what is transmitted, but a whole lot more than is in the LX sentences sent on their NMEA converter box. Among the Navboxes that can be configured are 'True Wind".
familiar green lift dots, but also puts inside each, one per second, an instantaneous wind vector. If you believe this, the wind surrounding (at least a strong western thermal) is quite dynamic, with the vectors tending to point towards the center ofI have three sources of wind data and the Air Vario is the most reliable by some distance, and the only one that responds to momentary changes. In steady state straight flight, they all agree somewhat. The iGlide thermal assistant draws the
I wonder if the Anemoi winds calculation is any good, hence this post. Right now, to get this instantaneous vs average comparison, I need to bounce between the wind arrow on my Air Avionics vario and the wind arrow on my OpenVario (XCSoar). A pain.On Wednesday, September 21, 2022 at 9:21:41 AM UTC-7, J6 aka Airport Bum wrote:
Good inputs, thanks.
Yes, the Kalman filter is not magic, just math, but definitely a brilliant insight and breakthrough. Here is a great info source on Kalman filters, a bit of history and background and then some of the math:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalman_filter
Note that (according to this page) one of the earliest practical applications of the Kalman filter was the Apollo navigation computer. Very cool.
A "very old technique"? Hey, I resemble that remark! Kalman first published on this in 1960, and I was born in 1955, you trying to make me feel "very old"? Its working.... Hahahaha!
And speaking of "very old", YES my 67 year old eyes could use a bigger arrow than on the Air Avionics display! Or any other wind arrow I've seen in a glider cockpit so far! Hahahaha!
Seriously, what I really want is an understandable-at-a-glance dedicated display (large format preferred, remember 67 year old eyes....) showing average and instantaneous winds simultaneously. The Anemoi display seems to fit the bill for me - but
sensor box installation (under the glareshield in my ASH-26E) is pretty much at the minimum recommended distances from possible corrupting magnetic field sources, and it seems to perform quite well in both wind and vario performance. In over 300 hours ofRegarding magnetic compass as a dimension in the Kalman filter, I fully concur that mag compass input to the Kalman filter improves the calculation, as long as its errors are kept low - yes you must have a proper installation. My Air Avionics
long straight smooth glide before winds can be considered reliable. I would like to hear from an experienced Anemoi user if this technique truly does work, and if it is or is not onerous in the applicable situations.... And also how well Anemoi windsSo there are reports that Anemoi (and HAWK?) have problems with unreliable data in straight flight mode? The Anemoi manual does acknowledge that particular characteristic, and they recommend executing three to four >10 deg heading changes after a
have no intention of removing it. In fact, I have acquired a spare, in case the one in my '26 breaks. I just want an understandable-at-a-glance dedicated display of both instantaneous and average winds. Jon has suggested iGlide (which I believe linksI just saw your new post noting "Seriously think that someone looking for better wind measuring instrument would make a mistake by taking their working Air system off." I couldn't agree more! I love my Air Avionics vario (winds and vario), and
and observation 105 deg. Kalman-corrected temperature forecast for tomorrow (in same conditions) would add that 5 degrees to forecast based on yesterday's forecast error. (To be accurate, weather forecasting moved from Kalman to modern signal processingHoping to hear from some Anemoi users soon. If you would rather go private, contact me at julietsix at gmail dot com
Cheers,
Jim J6
On Wednesday, September 21, 2022 at 5:14:05 AM UTC-5, krasw wrote:
Kalman filter is not some latest and greatest computer magic, it is a very old technique to remove systematic bias from signal. Most common would be your everyday weather forecast. Let's say your temperature forecast for yesterday was 100 deg,
speed vectors (straight flight), you still get no meaningful data. And almost straight flight leads to unreliable data (as HAWK users have told). Same thing with Anemoi. This is all you can do with no compass data.So, it is no magic, just common signal filtering. Now what can computer do without that compass signal? Just look for small differences between consecutive speed vectors, and try to calculate wind vector based on comparing these. For identical
find better wind info anywhere. You might find an instrument that has a bigger wind arrow, and if that is what you need, then good luck!What Air vario does is use that compass sensor, that works just fine when you install it according to installation manual. That gives you the true live wind, because the speed vector can be combined to heading info. I seriously doubt you will
that will give you wind direction, can't you guys figure it out, or is it a motorglider thing?? If you are so inept to look at your GS and AS, and drift, then what the heck is some instrument that is not even proven going to do for you? I tell you whatI am quiet confused by all the bloviation concerning instrumentation to assist in wind direction. Please help me out, some speak of wind sheer, others speak of thermal centering and I am quiet confused by the importance placed on some new instrument
are better off looking at the clouds and the ground to see what is going on. This is absolutely comical, go back to the basics. Old Bob, The PuristWe fly in more wind sheer than anywhere in the country, it last for twelve months here in Fl, and the same with convergence. I have never used wind direction to determine where the center of the thermal is, also never used it to determine sheer, you
If you only would be quiet then you wouldn't be so quite confused (English is the easiest language to learn, btw.) Now, it's again all about you and them damned motorglider pilots who don't know where the wind is coming from. At least I know now, whyyou don't post long xc flights - you always turn the wrong direction when entering a thermal. That makes it two things you need to work on, good luck.
On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 3:28:09 PM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:A constant display (might not be big enough for your wishes) are two vectors surrounding your glider icon, representing (I believe...) real time and average. It is however easier for me to follow the vector displayed in the Navbox on the Display S.
On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 3:48:43 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
The Air Vario link to the iPhone is WiFi, not Bluetooth. Hard to get visibility into what is transmitted, but a whole lot more than is in the LX sentences sent on their NMEA converter box. Among the Navboxes that can be configured are 'True Wind".
familiar green lift dots, but also puts inside each, one per second, an instantaneous wind vector. If you believe this, the wind surrounding (at least a strong western thermal) is quite dynamic, with the vectors tending to point towards the center ofI have three sources of wind data and the Air Vario is the most reliable by some distance, and the only one that responds to momentary changes. In steady state straight flight, they all agree somewhat. The iGlide thermal assistant draws the
I wonder if the Anemoi winds calculation is any good, hence this post. Right now, to get this instantaneous vs average comparison, I need to bounce between the wind arrow on my Air Avionics vario and the wind arrow on my OpenVario (XCSoar). A pain.On Wednesday, September 21, 2022 at 9:21:41 AM UTC-7, J6 aka Airport Bum wrote:
Good inputs, thanks.
Yes, the Kalman filter is not magic, just math, but definitely a brilliant insight and breakthrough. Here is a great info source on Kalman filters, a bit of history and background and then some of the math:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalman_filter
Note that (according to this page) one of the earliest practical applications of the Kalman filter was the Apollo navigation computer. Very cool.
A "very old technique"? Hey, I resemble that remark! Kalman first published on this in 1960, and I was born in 1955, you trying to make me feel "very old"? Its working.... Hahahaha!
And speaking of "very old", YES my 67 year old eyes could use a bigger arrow than on the Air Avionics display! Or any other wind arrow I've seen in a glider cockpit so far! Hahahaha!
Seriously, what I really want is an understandable-at-a-glance dedicated display (large format preferred, remember 67 year old eyes....) showing average and instantaneous winds simultaneously. The Anemoi display seems to fit the bill for me - but
sensor box installation (under the glareshield in my ASH-26E) is pretty much at the minimum recommended distances from possible corrupting magnetic field sources, and it seems to perform quite well in both wind and vario performance. In over 300 hours ofRegarding magnetic compass as a dimension in the Kalman filter, I fully concur that mag compass input to the Kalman filter improves the calculation, as long as its errors are kept low - yes you must have a proper installation. My Air Avionics
long straight smooth glide before winds can be considered reliable. I would like to hear from an experienced Anemoi user if this technique truly does work, and if it is or is not onerous in the applicable situations.... And also how well Anemoi windsSo there are reports that Anemoi (and HAWK?) have problems with unreliable data in straight flight mode? The Anemoi manual does acknowledge that particular characteristic, and they recommend executing three to four >10 deg heading changes after a
have no intention of removing it. In fact, I have acquired a spare, in case the one in my '26 breaks. I just want an understandable-at-a-glance dedicated display of both instantaneous and average winds. Jon has suggested iGlide (which I believe linksI just saw your new post noting "Seriously think that someone looking for better wind measuring instrument would make a mistake by taking their working Air system off." I couldn't agree more! I love my Air Avionics vario (winds and vario), and
and observation 105 deg. Kalman-corrected temperature forecast for tomorrow (in same conditions) would add that 5 degrees to forecast based on yesterday's forecast error. (To be accurate, weather forecasting moved from Kalman to modern signal processingHoping to hear from some Anemoi users soon. If you would rather go private, contact me at julietsix at gmail dot com
Cheers,
Jim J6
On Wednesday, September 21, 2022 at 5:14:05 AM UTC-5, krasw wrote:
Kalman filter is not some latest and greatest computer magic, it is a very old technique to remove systematic bias from signal. Most common would be your everyday weather forecast. Let's say your temperature forecast for yesterday was 100 deg,
speed vectors (straight flight), you still get no meaningful data. And almost straight flight leads to unreliable data (as HAWK users have told). Same thing with Anemoi. This is all you can do with no compass data.So, it is no magic, just common signal filtering. Now what can computer do without that compass signal? Just look for small differences between consecutive speed vectors, and try to calculate wind vector based on comparing these. For identical
find better wind info anywhere. You might find an instrument that has a bigger wind arrow, and if that is what you need, then good luck!What Air vario does is use that compass sensor, that works just fine when you install it according to installation manual. That gives you the true live wind, because the speed vector can be combined to heading info. I seriously doubt you will
that will give you wind direction, can't you guys figure it out, or is it a motorglider thing?? If you are so inept to look at your GS and AS, and drift, then what the heck is some instrument that is not even proven going to do for you? I tell you whatI am quiet confused by all the bloviation concerning instrumentation to assist in wind direction. Please help me out, some speak of wind sheer, others speak of thermal centering and I am quiet confused by the importance placed on some new instrument
are better off looking at the clouds and the ground to see what is going on. This is absolutely comical, go back to the basics. Old Bob, The PuristWe fly in more wind sheer than anywhere in the country, it last for twelve months here in Fl, and the same with convergence. I have never used wind direction to determine where the center of the thermal is, also never used it to determine sheer, you
If you only would be quiet then you wouldn't be so quite confused (English is the easiest language to learn, btw.) Now, it's again all about you and them damned motorglider pilots who don't know where the wind is coming from. At least I know now, whyyou don't post long xc flights - you always turn the wrong direction when entering a thermal. That makes it two things you need to work on, good luck.
On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 6:04:46 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:..
On 9/22/2022 1:28 PM, [email protected] wrote:
On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 3:48:43 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
that will give you wind direction, can't you guys figure it out, or is it a motorglider thing?? If you are so inept to look at your GS and AS, and drift, then what the heck is some instrument that is not even proven going to do for you? I tell you what
I am quiet confused by all the bloviation concerning instrumentation to assist in wind direction. Please help me out, some speak of wind sheer, others speak of thermal centering and I am quiet confused by the importance placed on some new instrument
are better off looking at the clouds and the ground to see what is going on. This is absolutely comical, go back to the basics. Old Bob, The PuristWe fly in more wind sheer than anywhere in the country, it last for twelve months here in Fl, and the same with convergence. I have never used wind direction to determine where the center of the thermal is, also never used it to determine sheer, you
right in front of you. Old Bob, The PuristYou have never had an "instantaneous" wind display, so it follows you have never used oneEric, you better get off that crack pipe and get realistic. I wish that you had experienced the flights that I have experienced through convective activity here in Florida. Come on down and we will fly through thunderboomers and watch the light show
for anything. You also fly over flat ground hundreds of miles from mountains and hills
that disturb and twist the wind. Given your inexperience with instant wind and in an area
with simple geography, you really should try one before mocking the pilots using them, and
you should look around, and notice which pilots are using these instruments, or at least
testing them. There are many successful pilots looking for better wind, or a replacement
for the no-longer-supported Butterfly/Air Avionics vario.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 3:48:43 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:constant display (might not be big enough for your wishes) are two vectors surrounding your glider icon, representing (I believe...) real time and average. It is however easier for me to follow the vector displayed in the Navbox on the Display S.
The Air Vario link to the iPhone is WiFi, not Bluetooth. Hard to get visibility into what is transmitted, but a whole lot more than is in the LX sentences sent on their NMEA converter box. Among the Navboxes that can be configured are 'True Wind". A
green lift dots, but also puts inside each, one per second, an instantaneous wind vector. If you believe this, the wind surrounding (at least a strong western thermal) is quite dynamic, with the vectors tending to point towards the center of lift. I haveI have three sources of wind data and the Air Vario is the most reliable by some distance, and the only one that responds to momentary changes. In steady state straight flight, they all agree somewhat. The iGlide thermal assistant draws the familiar
wonder if the Anemoi winds calculation is any good, hence this post. Right now, to get this instantaneous vs average comparison, I need to bounce between the wind arrow on my Air Avionics vario and the wind arrow on my OpenVario (XCSoar). A pain.On Wednesday, September 21, 2022 at 9:21:41 AM UTC-7, J6 aka Airport Bum wrote:
Good inputs, thanks.
Yes, the Kalman filter is not magic, just math, but definitely a brilliant insight and breakthrough. Here is a great info source on Kalman filters, a bit of history and background and then some of the math:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalman_filter
Note that (according to this page) one of the earliest practical applications of the Kalman filter was the Apollo navigation computer. Very cool.
A "very old technique"? Hey, I resemble that remark! Kalman first published on this in 1960, and I was born in 1955, you trying to make me feel "very old"? Its working.... Hahahaha!
And speaking of "very old", YES my 67 year old eyes could use a bigger arrow than on the Air Avionics display! Or any other wind arrow I've seen in a glider cockpit so far! Hahahaha!
Seriously, what I really want is an understandable-at-a-glance dedicated display (large format preferred, remember 67 year old eyes....) showing average and instantaneous winds simultaneously. The Anemoi display seems to fit the bill for me - but I
sensor box installation (under the glareshield in my ASH-26E) is pretty much at the minimum recommended distances from possible corrupting magnetic field sources, and it seems to perform quite well in both wind and vario performance. In over 300 hours ofRegarding magnetic compass as a dimension in the Kalman filter, I fully concur that mag compass input to the Kalman filter improves the calculation, as long as its errors are kept low - yes you must have a proper installation. My Air Avionics
long straight smooth glide before winds can be considered reliable. I would like to hear from an experienced Anemoi user if this technique truly does work, and if it is or is not onerous in the applicable situations.... And also how well Anemoi windsSo there are reports that Anemoi (and HAWK?) have problems with unreliable data in straight flight mode? The Anemoi manual does acknowledge that particular characteristic, and they recommend executing three to four >10 deg heading changes after a
no intention of removing it. In fact, I have acquired a spare, in case the one in my '26 breaks. I just want an understandable-at-a-glance dedicated display of both instantaneous and average winds. Jon has suggested iGlide (which I believe links into theI just saw your new post noting "Seriously think that someone looking for better wind measuring instrument would make a mistake by taking their working Air system off." I couldn't agree more! I love my Air Avionics vario (winds and vario), and have
and observation 105 deg. Kalman-corrected temperature forecast for tomorrow (in same conditions) would add that 5 degrees to forecast based on yesterday's forecast error. (To be accurate, weather forecasting moved from Kalman to modern signal processingHoping to hear from some Anemoi users soon. If you would rather go private, contact me at julietsix at gmail dot com
Cheers,
Jim J6
On Wednesday, September 21, 2022 at 5:14:05 AM UTC-5, krasw wrote:
Kalman filter is not some latest and greatest computer magic, it is a very old technique to remove systematic bias from signal. Most common would be your everyday weather forecast. Let's say your temperature forecast for yesterday was 100 deg,
speed vectors (straight flight), you still get no meaningful data. And almost straight flight leads to unreliable data (as HAWK users have told). Same thing with Anemoi. This is all you can do with no compass data.So, it is no magic, just common signal filtering. Now what can computer do without that compass signal? Just look for small differences between consecutive speed vectors, and try to calculate wind vector based on comparing these. For identical
find better wind info anywhere. You might find an instrument that has a bigger wind arrow, and if that is what you need, then good luck!What Air vario does is use that compass sensor, that works just fine when you install it according to installation manual. That gives you the true live wind, because the speed vector can be combined to heading info. I seriously doubt you will
I am quiet confused by all the bloviation concerning instrumentation to assist in wind direction. Please help me out, some speak of wind sheer, others speak of thermal centering and I am quiet confused by the importance placed on some new instrumentthat will give you wind direction, can't you guys figure it out, or is it a motorglider thing?? If you are so inept to look at your GS and AS, and drift, then what the heck is some instrument that is not even proven going to do for you? I tell you what
We fly in more wind sheer than anywhere in the country, it last for twelve months here in Fl, and the same with convergence. I have never used wind direction to determine where the center of the thermal is, also never used it to determine sheer, youare better off looking at the clouds and the ground to see what is going on. This is absolutely comical, go back to the basics. Old Bob, The Purist
Old Bob, this is just another case of 'you don't know what you don't know'. And you don't know much. Some good advice is: to keep from looking ridiculous, you should stick to talking about things you are at least familiar with. Google "Dunning-Krugereffect" while looking hard in the mirror.
On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 1:28:09 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:A constant display (might not be big enough for your wishes) are two vectors surrounding your glider icon, representing (I believe...) real time and average. It is however easier for me to follow the vector displayed in the Navbox on the Display S.
On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 3:48:43 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
The Air Vario link to the iPhone is WiFi, not Bluetooth. Hard to get visibility into what is transmitted, but a whole lot more than is in the LX sentences sent on their NMEA converter box. Among the Navboxes that can be configured are 'True Wind".
familiar green lift dots, but also puts inside each, one per second, an instantaneous wind vector. If you believe this, the wind surrounding (at least a strong western thermal) is quite dynamic, with the vectors tending to point towards the center ofI have three sources of wind data and the Air Vario is the most reliable by some distance, and the only one that responds to momentary changes. In steady state straight flight, they all agree somewhat. The iGlide thermal assistant draws the
I wonder if the Anemoi winds calculation is any good, hence this post. Right now, to get this instantaneous vs average comparison, I need to bounce between the wind arrow on my Air Avionics vario and the wind arrow on my OpenVario (XCSoar). A pain.On Wednesday, September 21, 2022 at 9:21:41 AM UTC-7, J6 aka Airport Bum wrote:
Good inputs, thanks.
Yes, the Kalman filter is not magic, just math, but definitely a brilliant insight and breakthrough. Here is a great info source on Kalman filters, a bit of history and background and then some of the math:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalman_filter
Note that (according to this page) one of the earliest practical applications of the Kalman filter was the Apollo navigation computer. Very cool.
A "very old technique"? Hey, I resemble that remark! Kalman first published on this in 1960, and I was born in 1955, you trying to make me feel "very old"? Its working.... Hahahaha!
And speaking of "very old", YES my 67 year old eyes could use a bigger arrow than on the Air Avionics display! Or any other wind arrow I've seen in a glider cockpit so far! Hahahaha!
Seriously, what I really want is an understandable-at-a-glance dedicated display (large format preferred, remember 67 year old eyes....) showing average and instantaneous winds simultaneously. The Anemoi display seems to fit the bill for me - but
sensor box installation (under the glareshield in my ASH-26E) is pretty much at the minimum recommended distances from possible corrupting magnetic field sources, and it seems to perform quite well in both wind and vario performance. In over 300 hours ofRegarding magnetic compass as a dimension in the Kalman filter, I fully concur that mag compass input to the Kalman filter improves the calculation, as long as its errors are kept low - yes you must have a proper installation. My Air Avionics
long straight smooth glide before winds can be considered reliable. I would like to hear from an experienced Anemoi user if this technique truly does work, and if it is or is not onerous in the applicable situations.... And also how well Anemoi windsSo there are reports that Anemoi (and HAWK?) have problems with unreliable data in straight flight mode? The Anemoi manual does acknowledge that particular characteristic, and they recommend executing three to four >10 deg heading changes after a
have no intention of removing it. In fact, I have acquired a spare, in case the one in my '26 breaks. I just want an understandable-at-a-glance dedicated display of both instantaneous and average winds. Jon has suggested iGlide (which I believe linksI just saw your new post noting "Seriously think that someone looking for better wind measuring instrument would make a mistake by taking their working Air system off." I couldn't agree more! I love my Air Avionics vario (winds and vario), and
and observation 105 deg. Kalman-corrected temperature forecast for tomorrow (in same conditions) would add that 5 degrees to forecast based on yesterday's forecast error. (To be accurate, weather forecasting moved from Kalman to modern signal processingHoping to hear from some Anemoi users soon. If you would rather go private, contact me at julietsix at gmail dot com
Cheers,
Jim J6
On Wednesday, September 21, 2022 at 5:14:05 AM UTC-5, krasw wrote:
Kalman filter is not some latest and greatest computer magic, it is a very old technique to remove systematic bias from signal. Most common would be your everyday weather forecast. Let's say your temperature forecast for yesterday was 100 deg,
speed vectors (straight flight), you still get no meaningful data. And almost straight flight leads to unreliable data (as HAWK users have told). Same thing with Anemoi. This is all you can do with no compass data.So, it is no magic, just common signal filtering. Now what can computer do without that compass signal? Just look for small differences between consecutive speed vectors, and try to calculate wind vector based on comparing these. For identical
find better wind info anywhere. You might find an instrument that has a bigger wind arrow, and if that is what you need, then good luck!What Air vario does is use that compass sensor, that works just fine when you install it according to installation manual. That gives you the true live wind, because the speed vector can be combined to heading info. I seriously doubt you will
that will give you wind direction, can't you guys figure it out, or is it a motorglider thing?? If you are so inept to look at your GS and AS, and drift, then what the heck is some instrument that is not even proven going to do for you? I tell you whatI am quiet confused by all the bloviation concerning instrumentation to assist in wind direction. Please help me out, some speak of wind sheer, others speak of thermal centering and I am quiet confused by the importance placed on some new instrument
are better off looking at the clouds and the ground to see what is going on. This is absolutely comical, go back to the basics. Old Bob, The PuristWe fly in more wind sheer than anywhere in the country, it last for twelve months here in Fl, and the same with convergence. I have never used wind direction to determine where the center of the thermal is, also never used it to determine sheer, you
Herbie, I speak four languages, I think I have English down fairly well, but what gets me is that the motorglider guys cannot figure out which direction and velocity the wind is blowing. Do you really need an instrument that gives you the results thatis 40% accurate. Have you never figured this out while flying, maybe you should work on you math skills instead of language skills. My gosh, what is wrong with you motorglider guys, go back to basic aviation, desired track, current heading, ground speed,
On Friday, September 23, 2022 at 11:58:40 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:effect" while looking hard in the mirror.
Old Bob, this is just another case of 'you don't know what you don't know'. And you don't know much. Some good advice is: to keep from looking ridiculous, you should stick to talking about things you are at least familiar with. Google "Dunning-Kruger
Fitch, I was wondering when you were going to come out of the closet and opine on the subject, nothing like having a rookie on the roster. Maybe it would be good for you to understand the Imposter Syndrome, but I really don't think that would describeyou motorglider pilots, the Peter Principle would certainly be much better description.
Since "Bum" started this thread I would once again ask why such an instrument would be that valuable to you as a glider pilot, and why other means of acquiring the same information as we have done for decades is no longer valid or not accessible. Someof these guys on here think that technology gives you a huge advantage, I think that some of the technology, yet not all, has dumb downed the sport. Just words of thought! Old Bob, The Purist
A constant display (might not be big enough for your wishes) are two vectors surrounding your glider icon, representing (I believe...) real time and average. It is however easier for me to follow the vector displayed in the Navbox on the Display S.On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 1:28:09 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 3:48:43 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
The Air Vario link to the iPhone is WiFi, not Bluetooth. Hard to get visibility into what is transmitted, but a whole lot more than is in the LX sentences sent on their NMEA converter box. Among the Navboxes that can be configured are 'True Wind".
familiar green lift dots, but also puts inside each, one per second, an instantaneous wind vector. If you believe this, the wind surrounding (at least a strong western thermal) is quite dynamic, with the vectors tending to point towards the center ofI have three sources of wind data and the Air Vario is the most reliable by some distance, and the only one that responds to momentary changes. In steady state straight flight, they all agree somewhat. The iGlide thermal assistant draws the
but I wonder if the Anemoi winds calculation is any good, hence this post. Right now, to get this instantaneous vs average comparison, I need to bounce between the wind arrow on my Air Avionics vario and the wind arrow on my OpenVario (XCSoar). A pain.On Wednesday, September 21, 2022 at 9:21:41 AM UTC-7, J6 aka Airport Bum wrote:
Good inputs, thanks.
Yes, the Kalman filter is not magic, just math, but definitely a brilliant insight and breakthrough. Here is a great info source on Kalman filters, a bit of history and background and then some of the math:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalman_filter
Note that (according to this page) one of the earliest practical applications of the Kalman filter was the Apollo navigation computer. Very cool.
A "very old technique"? Hey, I resemble that remark! Kalman first published on this in 1960, and I was born in 1955, you trying to make me feel "very old"? Its working.... Hahahaha!
And speaking of "very old", YES my 67 year old eyes could use a bigger arrow than on the Air Avionics display! Or any other wind arrow I've seen in a glider cockpit so far! Hahahaha!
Seriously, what I really want is an understandable-at-a-glance dedicated display (large format preferred, remember 67 year old eyes....) showing average and instantaneous winds simultaneously. The Anemoi display seems to fit the bill for me -
sensor box installation (under the glareshield in my ASH-26E) is pretty much at the minimum recommended distances from possible corrupting magnetic field sources, and it seems to perform quite well in both wind and vario performance. In over 300 hours ofRegarding magnetic compass as a dimension in the Kalman filter, I fully concur that mag compass input to the Kalman filter improves the calculation, as long as its errors are kept low - yes you must have a proper installation. My Air Avionics
a long straight smooth glide before winds can be considered reliable. I would like to hear from an experienced Anemoi user if this technique truly does work, and if it is or is not onerous in the applicable situations.... And also how well Anemoi windsSo there are reports that Anemoi (and HAWK?) have problems with unreliable data in straight flight mode? The Anemoi manual does acknowledge that particular characteristic, and they recommend executing three to four >10 deg heading changes after
have no intention of removing it. In fact, I have acquired a spare, in case the one in my '26 breaks. I just want an understandable-at-a-glance dedicated display of both instantaneous and average winds. Jon has suggested iGlide (which I believe linksI just saw your new post noting "Seriously think that someone looking for better wind measuring instrument would make a mistake by taking their working Air system off." I couldn't agree more! I love my Air Avionics vario (winds and vario), and
and observation 105 deg. Kalman-corrected temperature forecast for tomorrow (in same conditions) would add that 5 degrees to forecast based on yesterday's forecast error. (To be accurate, weather forecasting moved from Kalman to modern signal processingHoping to hear from some Anemoi users soon. If you would rather go private, contact me at julietsix at gmail dot com
Cheers,
Jim J6
On Wednesday, September 21, 2022 at 5:14:05 AM UTC-5, krasw wrote:
Kalman filter is not some latest and greatest computer magic, it is a very old technique to remove systematic bias from signal. Most common would be your everyday weather forecast. Let's say your temperature forecast for yesterday was 100 deg,
identical speed vectors (straight flight), you still get no meaningful data. And almost straight flight leads to unreliable data (as HAWK users have told). Same thing with Anemoi. This is all you can do with no compass data.So, it is no magic, just common signal filtering. Now what can computer do without that compass signal? Just look for small differences between consecutive speed vectors, and try to calculate wind vector based on comparing these. For
find better wind info anywhere. You might find an instrument that has a bigger wind arrow, and if that is what you need, then good luck!What Air vario does is use that compass sensor, that works just fine when you install it according to installation manual. That gives you the true live wind, because the speed vector can be combined to heading info. I seriously doubt you will
instrument that will give you wind direction, can't you guys figure it out, or is it a motorglider thing?? If you are so inept to look at your GS and AS, and drift, then what the heck is some instrument that is not even proven going to do for you? I tellI am quiet confused by all the bloviation concerning instrumentation to assist in wind direction. Please help me out, some speak of wind sheer, others speak of thermal centering and I am quiet confused by the importance placed on some new
you are better off looking at the clouds and the ground to see what is going on. This is absolutely comical, go back to the basics. Old Bob, The PuristWe fly in more wind sheer than anywhere in the country, it last for twelve months here in Fl, and the same with convergence. I have never used wind direction to determine where the center of the thermal is, also never used it to determine sheer,
I would once again ask why such an instrument would be that valuable to you as a glider pilot, and why other means of acquiring the same information as we have done for decades is no longer valid or not accessible.
Well Bob, jpg is right on this one. If you don't know what to do with the information, then it won't be useful to you. If you had such an instrument, you might find that the wind is much more dynamic than you thought, not just blowing from left toright at a nice steady speed. It can change radically, in seconds, and that information is useful. When you see a dust devil come through, would you describe it as a nice uniform flow field? Do you think "looking at the clouds and ground" gives you an
On Friday, September 23, 2022 at 12:54:55 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:Kruger effect" while looking hard in the mirror.
On Friday, September 23, 2022 at 11:58:40 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
Old Bob, this is just another case of 'you don't know what you don't know'. And you don't know much. Some good advice is: to keep from looking ridiculous, you should stick to talking about things you are at least familiar with. Google "Dunning-
describe you motorglider pilots, the Peter Principle would certainly be much better description.Fitch, I was wondering when you were going to come out of the closet and opine on the subject, nothing like having a rookie on the roster. Maybe it would be good for you to understand the Imposter Syndrome, but I really don't think that would
Some of these guys on here think that technology gives you a huge advantage, I think that some of the technology, yet not all, has dumb downed the sport. Just words of thought! Old Bob, The PuristSince "Bum" started this thread I would once again ask why such an instrument would be that valuable to you as a glider pilot, and why other means of acquiring the same information as we have done for decades is no longer valid or not accessible.
Wind". A constant display (might not be big enough for your wishes) are two vectors surrounding your glider icon, representing (I believe...) real time and average. It is however easier for me to follow the vector displayed in the Navbox on the Display S.On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 1:28:09 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 3:48:43 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
The Air Vario link to the iPhone is WiFi, not Bluetooth. Hard to get visibility into what is transmitted, but a whole lot more than is in the LX sentences sent on their NMEA converter box. Among the Navboxes that can be configured are 'True
familiar green lift dots, but also puts inside each, one per second, an instantaneous wind vector. If you believe this, the wind surrounding (at least a strong western thermal) is quite dynamic, with the vectors tending to point towards the center ofI have three sources of wind data and the Air Vario is the most reliable by some distance, and the only one that responds to momentary changes. In steady state straight flight, they all agree somewhat. The iGlide thermal assistant draws the
but I wonder if the Anemoi winds calculation is any good, hence this post. Right now, to get this instantaneous vs average comparison, I need to bounce between the wind arrow on my Air Avionics vario and the wind arrow on my OpenVario (XCSoar). A pain.On Wednesday, September 21, 2022 at 9:21:41 AM UTC-7, J6 aka Airport Bum wrote:
Good inputs, thanks.
Yes, the Kalman filter is not magic, just math, but definitely a brilliant insight and breakthrough. Here is a great info source on Kalman filters, a bit of history and background and then some of the math:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalman_filter
Note that (according to this page) one of the earliest practical applications of the Kalman filter was the Apollo navigation computer. Very cool.
A "very old technique"? Hey, I resemble that remark! Kalman first published on this in 1960, and I was born in 1955, you trying to make me feel "very old"? Its working.... Hahahaha!
And speaking of "very old", YES my 67 year old eyes could use a bigger arrow than on the Air Avionics display! Or any other wind arrow I've seen in a glider cockpit so far! Hahahaha!
Seriously, what I really want is an understandable-at-a-glance dedicated display (large format preferred, remember 67 year old eyes....) showing average and instantaneous winds simultaneously. The Anemoi display seems to fit the bill for me -
sensor box installation (under the glareshield in my ASH-26E) is pretty much at the minimum recommended distances from possible corrupting magnetic field sources, and it seems to perform quite well in both wind and vario performance. In over 300 hours ofRegarding magnetic compass as a dimension in the Kalman filter, I fully concur that mag compass input to the Kalman filter improves the calculation, as long as its errors are kept low - yes you must have a proper installation. My Air Avionics
after a long straight smooth glide before winds can be considered reliable. I would like to hear from an experienced Anemoi user if this technique truly does work, and if it is or is not onerous in the applicable situations.... And also how well AnemoiSo there are reports that Anemoi (and HAWK?) have problems with unreliable data in straight flight mode? The Anemoi manual does acknowledge that particular characteristic, and they recommend executing three to four >10 deg heading changes
and have no intention of removing it. In fact, I have acquired a spare, in case the one in my '26 breaks. I just want an understandable-at-a-glance dedicated display of both instantaneous and average winds. Jon has suggested iGlide (which I believe linksI just saw your new post noting "Seriously think that someone looking for better wind measuring instrument would make a mistake by taking their working Air system off." I couldn't agree more! I love my Air Avionics vario (winds and vario),
deg, and observation 105 deg. Kalman-corrected temperature forecast for tomorrow (in same conditions) would add that 5 degrees to forecast based on yesterday's forecast error. (To be accurate, weather forecasting moved from Kalman to modern signalHoping to hear from some Anemoi users soon. If you would rather go private, contact me at julietsix at gmail dot com
Cheers,
Jim J6
On Wednesday, September 21, 2022 at 5:14:05 AM UTC-5, krasw wrote:
Kalman filter is not some latest and greatest computer magic, it is a very old technique to remove systematic bias from signal. Most common would be your everyday weather forecast. Let's say your temperature forecast for yesterday was 100
identical speed vectors (straight flight), you still get no meaningful data. And almost straight flight leads to unreliable data (as HAWK users have told). Same thing with Anemoi. This is all you can do with no compass data.So, it is no magic, just common signal filtering. Now what can computer do without that compass signal? Just look for small differences between consecutive speed vectors, and try to calculate wind vector based on comparing these. For
will find better wind info anywhere. You might find an instrument that has a bigger wind arrow, and if that is what you need, then good luck!What Air vario does is use that compass sensor, that works just fine when you install it according to installation manual. That gives you the true live wind, because the speed vector can be combined to heading info. I seriously doubt you
instrument that will give you wind direction, can't you guys figure it out, or is it a motorglider thing?? If you are so inept to look at your GS and AS, and drift, then what the heck is some instrument that is not even proven going to do for you? I tellI am quiet confused by all the bloviation concerning instrumentation to assist in wind direction. Please help me out, some speak of wind sheer, others speak of thermal centering and I am quiet confused by the importance placed on some new
you are better off looking at the clouds and the ground to see what is going on. This is absolutely comical, go back to the basics. Old Bob, The PuristWe fly in more wind sheer than anywhere in the country, it last for twelve months here in Fl, and the same with convergence. I have never used wind direction to determine where the center of the thermal is, also never used it to determine sheer,
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