Today, after I just finished assembling my glider, the airport manager came up to me and asked me not to fly out of the airport today, as there was a wildfire nearby and 4 air-attack aircraft were flying out of our airport to fight it (two Dromaders with
turbine conversion, and two Air Tractors). I would have gotten in their way getting my glider to the end of the runway, and possibly interrupted them when landing. I decided not to make an a$$hole of myself and put up a fight, so put my glider away
again. It takes me about 1-2hrs to rig and derig my glider, due to it being old and the trailer being "sub-optimal" (and I don't have a one-man-rigger). I don't have a tow-out bar either, so have to tow the glider at walking speed down the taxiway to
the end of the runway, which is about a 2,400ft trek. These firefighting aircraft use our airport as a base of operations every summer during wildfire season. So far it hasn't been a problem, but today was different.

Now as I understand it, I have every right to fly out of the airport, and could have legally taken the stance of "too bad for them". But I didn't. I want to have good community relations with the locals, and would like to actually get a glider
operation of some sort going here at our airport (Ronan, MT--7S0). We have another nearby airport (Polson--8S1), and flew out of there the last two times, but it costs me more to get the towplane up there, and Polson is now very close to a new TFR for
the fire they are trying to fight, which is also very close to where some of the best lift usually is.

I understand the importance of getting the fire put out, or protecting structures endangered by the fire, and how this can be a time-sensitive issue at times. But I also don't like that they just shut me down like that. I believe they legally can't
prevent me from flying from the airport unless they declare a TFR over the airport, which would then affect ALL GA traffic, not just gliders. And I don't want to cause that! I should have just started back to Polson today, but Ronan is closer to the
mountains where I was planning to fly. Any ideas of how to approach this in the future? I plan to fly out of Polson as long as they are actively fighting fires, and the TFR comes down so I can actually get away, but I'd like to have a conversation with
them as well to explore ways we can both be flying out of Ronan. Sorry for the long post, but I had to vent, and I do want ideas and advise too. Thanks.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Yeh…it stinks.
I would see if the manager was receptive to you and your towpilot(?) and crew working a plan to thread your operations in with the firebombers. Get his number to contact him for a notam before leaving for the airport.
Maybe he would be willing to help launch you. Bring him a box of donuts. Think …brainstorm a plan…to create a team plan.
Possible he worried but a coming up with safe solution will be his way forward.
Has there been any negative incidents before today?

R

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wednesday, August 17, 2022 at 7:43:49 PM UTC-6, [email protected] wrote:

Today, after I just finished assembling my glider, the airport manager came up to me and asked me not to fly out of the airport today, as there was a wildfire nearby and 4 air-attack aircraft were flying out of our airport to fight it (two Dromaders

with turbine conversion, and two Air Tractors). I would have gotten in their way getting my glider to the end of the runway, and possibly interrupted them when landing. I decided not to make an a$$hole of myself and put up a fight, so put my glider away
again. It takes me about 1-2hrs to rig and derig my glider, due to it being old and the trailer being "sub-optimal" (and I don't have a one-man-rigger). I don't have a tow-out bar either, so have to tow the glider at walking speed down the taxiway to the
end of the runway, which is about a 2,400ft trek. These firefighting aircraft use our airport as a base of operations every summer during wildfire season. So far it hasn't been a problem, but today was different.

Now as I understand it, I have every right to fly out of the airport, and could have legally taken the stance of "too bad for them". But I didn't. I want to have good community relations with the locals, and would like to actually get a glider

operation of some sort going here at our airport (Ronan, MT--7S0). We have another nearby airport (Polson--8S1), and flew out of there the last two times, but it costs me more to get the towplane up there, and Polson is now very close to a new TFR for
the fire they are trying to fight, which is also very close to where some of the best lift usually is.

I understand the importance of getting the fire put out, or protecting structures endangered by the fire, and how this can be a time-sensitive issue at times. But I also don't like that they just shut me down like that. I believe they legally can't

prevent me from flying from the airport unless they declare a TFR over the airport, which would then affect ALL GA traffic, not just gliders. And I don't want to cause that! I should have just started back to Polson today, but Ronan is closer to the
mountains where I was planning to fly. Any ideas of how to approach this in the future? I plan to fly out of Polson as long as they are actively fighting fires, and the TFR comes down so I can actually get away, but I'd like to have a conversation with
them as well to explore ways we can both be flying out of Ronan. Sorry for the long post, but I had to vent, and I do want ideas and advise too. Thanks.


I think you did the right thing.
I know its a PITA at times BUT for the good everyone we should yield at times, if possible.
Take the high road
Nick
T

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 8/17/2022 6:43 PM, John Foster wrote:

Today, after I just finished assembling my glider, the airport manager came up to me and asked me not to fly out of the airport today, as there was a wildfire nearby and 4 air-attack aircraft were flying out of our airport to fight it (two Dromaders

with turbine conversion, and two Air Tractors). I would have gotten in their way getting my glider to the end of the runway, and possibly interrupted them when landing. I decided not to make an a$$hole of myself and put up a fight, so put my glider
away again. It takes me about 1-2hrs to rig and derig my glider, due to it being old and the trailer being "sub-optimal" (and I don't have a one-man-rigger). I don't have a tow-out bar either, so have to tow the glider at walking speed down the
taxiway to the end of the runway, which is about a 2,400ft trek. These firefighting aircraft use our airport as a base of operations every summer during wildfire season. So far it hasn't been a problem, but today was different.

Now as I understand it, I have every right to fly out of the airport, and could have legally taken the stance of "too bad for them". But I didn't. I want to have good community relations with the locals, and would like to actually get a glider

operation of some sort going here at our airport (Ronan, MT--7S0). We have another nearby airport (Polson--8S1), and flew out of there the last two times, but it costs me more to get the towplane up there, and Polson is now very close to a new TFR for
the fire they are trying to fight, which is also very close to where some of the best lift usually is.

I understand the importance of getting the fire put out, or protecting structures endangered by the fire, and how this can be a time-sensitive issue at times. But I also don't like that they just shut me down like that. I believe they legally can't

prevent me from flying from the airport unless they declare a TFR over the airport, which would then affect ALL GA traffic, not just gliders. And I don't want to cause that! I should have just started back to Polson today, but Ronan is closer to the
mountains where I was planning to fly. Any ideas of how to approach this in the future? I plan to fly out of Polson as long as they are actively fighting fires, and the TFR comes down so I can actually get away, but I'd like to have a conversation with
them as well to explore ways we can both be flying out of Ronan. Sorry for the long post, but I had to vent, and I do want ideas and advise too. Thanks.

A motorglider would allow you to launch or land without interfering with the fire
fighters, but obviously not a quick and easy solution. It might be worth considering for
next season, as it would let you fly out of Polson, or most any airport, without needing
to arrange for a towplane.

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wednesday, August 17, 2022 at 9:45:35 PM UTC-6, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On 8/17/2022 6:43 PM, John Foster wrote:

Today, after I just finished assembling my glider, the airport manager came up to me and asked me not to fly out of the airport today, as there was a wildfire nearby and 4 air-attack aircraft were flying out of our airport to fight it (two Dromaders

with turbine conversion, and two Air Tractors). I would have gotten in their way getting my glider to the end of the runway, and possibly interrupted them when landing. I decided not to make an a$$hole of myself and put up a fight, so put my glider away
again. It takes me about 1-2hrs to rig and derig my glider, due to it being old and the trailer being "sub-optimal" (and I don't have a one-man-rigger). I don't have a tow-out bar either, so have to tow the glider at walking speed down the taxiway to the
end of the runway, which is about a 2,400ft trek. These firefighting aircraft use our airport as a base of operations every summer during wildfire season. So far it hasn't been a problem, but today was different.

Now as I understand it, I have every right to fly out of the airport, and could have legally taken the stance of "too bad for them". But I didn't. I want to have good community relations with the locals, and would like to actually get a glider

operation of some sort going here at our airport (Ronan, MT--7S0). We have another nearby airport (Polson--8S1), and flew out of there the last two times, but it costs me more to get the towplane up there, and Polson is now very close to a new TFR for
the fire they are trying to fight, which is also very close to where some of the best lift usually is.

I understand the importance of getting the fire put out, or protecting structures endangered by the fire, and how this can be a time-sensitive issue at times. But I also don't like that they just shut me down like that. I believe they legally can't

prevent me from flying from the airport unless they declare a TFR over the airport, which would then affect ALL GA traffic, not just gliders. And I don't want to cause that! I should have just started back to Polson today, but Ronan is closer to the
mountains where I was planning to fly. Any ideas of how to approach this in the future? I plan to fly out of Polson as long as they are actively fighting fires, and the TFR comes down so I can actually get away, but I'd like to have a conversation with
them as well to explore ways we can both be flying out of Ronan. Sorry for the long post, but I had to vent, and I do want ideas and advise too. Thanks.

A motorglider would allow you to launch or land without interfering with the fire
fighters, but obviously not a quick and easy solution. It might be worth considering for
next season, as it would let you fly out of Polson, or most any airport, without needing
to arrange for a towplane.

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Unfortunately, a motorglider is not anywhere near being in my budget.

I do think there is a way to work around the firebombers, at least for take-off. I'd be willing to explore towing my glider out on the grass next to the taxiway so they could get by me, and then wait for a lul in the activity before launching. But the
grass is pretty rough and clumpy. Where I think the biggest potential for conflict could be, would be landing. It takes a few minutes to get out of my glider and get is pushed off the runway, so they'd have to wait for me to clear before landing. And
the grass between the taxiway and runway is pretty clumpy/rough, and landscaped to create a drainage for water/snow. Not ideal.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 8/18/2022 8:53 AM, John Foster wrote:
...

A motorglider would allow you to launch or land without interfering with the fire
fighters, but obviously not a quick and easy solution. It might be worth considering for
next season, as it would let you fly out of Polson, or most any airport, without needing
to arrange for a towplane.

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Unfortunately, a motorglider is not anywhere near being in my budget.

I do think there is a way to work around the firebombers, at least for take-off. I'd be willing to explore towing my glider out on the grass next to the taxiway so they could get by me, and then wait for a lul in the activity before launching. But

the grass is pretty rough and clumpy. Where I think the biggest potential for conflict could be, would be landing. It takes a few minutes to get out of my glider and get is pushed off the runway, so they'd have to wait for me to clear before landing.
And the grass between the taxiway and runway is pretty clumpy/rough, and landscaped to create a drainage for water/snow. Not ideal.

Having partner cuts the cost in half, and the motor enables both partners to get a lot of
soaring - no tow plane or tow pilot needed, and weather doesn't have to be as good. The
steerable tail wheel let's you easily turn off the runway; worst case, you have to start
the motor to taxi off, but that's a 20 second delay, not a few minutes.

If I had to fly a towed glider, I'd still want to have steerable tail wheel. Besides the
ease of getting off the runway, it's easy to go straight on the runway at the start of the
tow, even with an unassisted launch and a cross wind.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

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* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Agree it's a royal PITA for the airport manager to walk up after two hours of rigging. Better to phone him up before going to the airport.

How about rigging the glider near the takeoff end? Then you're not blocking the runway during a 2400' ground tow and saving yourself a long walk.

Landing try to end up at a good spot to pull off the glider and maybe bring the trailer to it.

Agree with bringing a box of donuts for a cordial chat with the airport manager

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Thursday, August 18, 2022 at 1:15:05 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On 8/18/2022 8:53 AM, John Foster wrote:
...

A motorglider would allow you to launch or land without interfering with the fire
fighters, but obviously not a quick and easy solution. It might be worth considering for
next season, as it would let you fly out of Polson, or most any airport, without needing
to arrange for a towplane.

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Unfortunately, a motorglider is not anywhere near being in my budget.

I do think there is a way to work around the firebombers, at least for take-off. I'd be willing to explore towing my glider out on the grass next to the taxiway so they could get by me, and then wait for a lul in the activity before launching. But

the grass is pretty rough and clumpy. Where I think the biggest potential for conflict could be, would be landing. It takes a few minutes to get out of my glider and get is pushed off the runway, so they'd have to wait for me to clear before landing. And
the grass between the taxiway and runway is pretty clumpy/rough, and landscaped to create a drainage for water/snow. Not ideal.

Having partner cuts the cost in half, and the motor enables both partners to get a lot of
soaring - no tow plane or tow pilot needed, and weather doesn't have to be as good. The
steerable tail wheel let's you easily turn off the runway; worst case, you have to start
the motor to taxi off, but that's a 20 second delay, not a few minutes.

If I had to fly a towed glider, I'd still want to have steerable tail wheel. Besides the
ease of getting off the runway, it's easy to go straight on the runway at the start of the
tow, even with an unassisted launch and a cross wind.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Eric, you will remember the big Brian Head fire near Parowan during our 2019 ASA camp. One day I had tow-launched and was climbing through10,000' when someone called me with my N-number on 123.3. It was the Fire Chief informing me that the TFR had been
changed and if I could please move North, which I immediately did. I had ADS-B out in my -29 and they even knew what frequency to call me on. I had just changed from Parowan Unicom. These guys are professionals, let's always give them space.
Herb

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 8/19/2022 10:58 AM, Herbert Kilian wrote:

On Thursday, August 18, 2022 at 1:15:05 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On 8/18/2022 8:53 AM, John Foster wrote:
...

A motorglider would allow you to launch or land without interfering with the fire
fighters, but obviously not a quick and easy solution. It might be worth considering for
next season, as it would let you fly out of Polson, or most any airport, without needing
to arrange for a towplane.

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Unfortunately, a motorglider is not anywhere near being in my budget.

I do think there is a way to work around the firebombers, at least for take-off. I'd be willing to explore towing my glider out on the grass next to the taxiway so they could get by me, and then wait for a lul in the activity before launching. But

the grass is pretty rough and clumpy. Where I think the biggest potential for conflict could be, would be landing. It takes a few minutes to get out of my glider and get is pushed off the runway, so they'd have to wait for me to clear before landing. And
the grass between the taxiway and runway is pretty clumpy/rough, and landscaped to create a drainage for water/snow. Not ideal.

Having partner cuts the cost in half, and the motor enables both partners to get a lot of
soaring - no tow plane or tow pilot needed, and weather doesn't have to be as good. The
steerable tail wheel let's you easily turn off the runway; worst case, you have to start
the motor to taxi off, but that's a 20 second delay, not a few minutes.

If I had to fly a towed glider, I'd still want to have steerable tail wheel. Besides the
ease of getting off the runway, it's easy to go straight on the runway at the start of the
tow, even with an unassisted launch and a cross wind.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Eric, you will remember the big Brian Head fire near Parowan during our 2019 ASA camp. One day I had tow-launched and was climbing through10,000' when someone called me with my N-number on 123.3. It was the Fire Chief informing me that the TFR had been

changed and if I could please move North, which I immediately did. I had ADS-B out in my -29 and they even knew what frequency to call me on. I had just changed from Parowan Unicom. These guys are professionals, let's always give them space.

Herb

From John's description of the situation, it seemed clear it was the towed glider
operation that concerned him, not aircraft in general. If airplanes were not discouraged
from using the airport, I see no problem with flying a self-launching motorglider (that
can taxi) from the airport. Let's not give them space they don't request or need.

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Friday, August 19, 2022 at 2:34:05 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On 8/19/2022 10:58 AM, Herbert Kilian wrote:

On Thursday, August 18, 2022 at 1:15:05 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On 8/18/2022 8:53 AM, John Foster wrote:
...

A motorglider would allow you to launch or land without interfering with the fire
fighters, but obviously not a quick and easy solution. It might be worth considering for
next season, as it would let you fly out of Polson, or most any airport, without needing
to arrange for a towplane.

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Unfortunately, a motorglider is not anywhere near being in my budget. >>>
I do think there is a way to work around the firebombers, at least for take-off. I'd be willing to explore towing my glider out on the grass next to the taxiway so they could get by me, and then wait for a lul in the activity before launching. But

the grass is pretty rough and clumpy. Where I think the biggest potential for conflict could be, would be landing. It takes a few minutes to get out of my glider and get is pushed off the runway, so they'd have to wait for me to clear before landing. And
the grass between the taxiway and runway is pretty clumpy/rough, and landscaped to create a drainage for water/snow. Not ideal.

Having partner cuts the cost in half, and the motor enables both partners to get a lot of
soaring - no tow plane or tow pilot needed, and weather doesn't have to be as good. The
steerable tail wheel let's you easily turn off the runway; worst case, you have to start
the motor to taxi off, but that's a 20 second delay, not a few minutes. >>
If I had to fly a towed glider, I'd still want to have steerable tail wheel. Besides the
ease of getting off the runway, it's easy to go straight on the runway at the start of the
tow, even with an unassisted launch and a cross wind.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Eric, you will remember the big Brian Head fire near Parowan during our 2019 ASA camp. One day I had tow-launched and was climbing through10,000' when someone called me with my N-number on 123.3. It was the Fire Chief informing me that the TFR had

been changed and if I could please move North, which I immediately did. I had ADS-B out in my -29 and they even knew what frequency to call me on. I had just changed from Parowan Unicom. These guys are professionals, let's always give them space.

Herb

From John's description of the situation, it seemed clear it was the towed glider
operation that concerned him, not aircraft in general. If airplanes were not discouraged
from using the airport, I see no problem with flying a self-launching motorglider (that
can taxi) from the airport. Let's not give them space they don't request or need.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

I think you did the right thing. A glider in the midst of fire fighting aircraft could cause undue delays in the flow when they have to delay their landings to give way to a glider under the right of way rules. Other powered planes can loiter aloft to
give way, but they would be forced to give way to you. Who knows how much a five minute delay in getting fire retardant deployed could affect their efforts.

We do this for fun and they are trying to save lives, homes, livestock, etc. Giving up a day in order to help them is a honorable decision.

PA

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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