• recovering from severe microburst

    From Waveguru@21:1/5 to All on Sun Aug 14 09:15:53 2022
    My beautiful 2-32 has been totally destroyed by a severe thunderstorm here in Arizona. It had 3 chains, and two strong ropes to 4 different tie downs on the glider. I suspect that a hangar door that blew off upwind hit my glider and knocked it from it'
    s tie downs, but that is going to be very hard to prove to the satisfaction of the airport's insurance company. I have started a Gofundme account to help me recover and continue being able to sell rides to the public.

    https://gofund.me/ed12c2ef

    Thank you for considering a donation.

    Gary Boggs
    www.nwskysports.com

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  • From 2G@21:1/5 to Waveguru on Sun Aug 14 20:48:32 2022
    On Sunday, August 14, 2022 at 9:15:55 AM UTC-7, Waveguru wrote:
    My beautiful 2-32 has been totally destroyed by a severe thunderstorm here in Arizona. It had 3 chains, and two strong ropes to 4 different tie downs on the glider. I suspect that a hangar door that blew off upwind hit my glider and knocked it from it'
    s tie downs, but that is going to be very hard to prove to the satisfaction of the airport's insurance company. I have started a Gofundme account to help me recover and continue being able to sell rides to the public.

    https://gofund.me/ed12c2ef

    Thank you for considering a donation.

    Gary Boggs
    www.nwskysports.com

    I assume you are talking about the HANGAR insurance company; correct?

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  • From bumper@21:1/5 to Waveguru on Mon Aug 15 20:31:55 2022
    On Sunday, August 14, 2022 at 9:15:55 AM UTC-7, Waveguru wrote:
    My beautiful 2-32 has been totally destroyed by a severe thunderstorm here in Arizona. It had 3 chains, and two strong ropes to 4 different tie downs on the glider. I suspect that a hangar door that blew off upwind hit my glider and knocked it from it'
    s tie downs, but that is going to be very hard to prove to the satisfaction of the airport's insurance company. I have started a Gofundme account to help me recover and continue being able to sell rides to the public.

    https://gofund.me/ed12c2ef

    Thank you for considering a donation.

    Gary Boggs
    www.nwskysports.com

    Gary,

    Did you check both glider and hangar door for paint transfer that quite often occurs in situations like that?

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  • From 2G@21:1/5 to bumper on Mon Aug 15 22:41:26 2022
    On Monday, August 15, 2022 at 8:31:57 PM UTC-7, bumper wrote:
    On Sunday, August 14, 2022 at 9:15:55 AM UTC-7, Waveguru wrote:
    My beautiful 2-32 has been totally destroyed by a severe thunderstorm here in Arizona. It had 3 chains, and two strong ropes to 4 different tie downs on the glider. I suspect that a hangar door that blew off upwind hit my glider and knocked it from
    it's tie downs, but that is going to be very hard to prove to the satisfaction of the airport's insurance company. I have started a Gofundme account to help me recover and continue being able to sell rides to the public.

    https://gofund.me/ed12c2ef

    Thank you for considering a donation.

    Gary Boggs
    www.nwskysports.com
    Gary,

    Did you check both glider and hangar door for paint transfer that quite often occurs in situations like that?

    No chance of a claim here - there is no evidence of negligence on the part of the hangar owner (the weather caused the accident and try suing the weather).

    Tom

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  • From [email protected]@21:1/5 to All on Tue Aug 16 06:49:47 2022
    On Tuesday, August 16, 2022 at 1:41:28 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
    On Monday, August 15, 2022 at 8:31:57 PM UTC-7, bumper wrote:
    On Sunday, August 14, 2022 at 9:15:55 AM UTC-7, Waveguru wrote:
    My beautiful 2-32 has been totally destroyed by a severe thunderstorm here in Arizona. It had 3 chains, and two strong ropes to 4 different tie downs on the glider. I suspect that a hangar door that blew off upwind hit my glider and knocked it from
    it's tie downs, but that is going to be very hard to prove to the satisfaction of the airport's insurance company. I have started a Gofundme account to help me recover and continue being able to sell rides to the public.

    https://gofund.me/ed12c2ef

    Thank you for considering a donation.

    Gary Boggs
    www.nwskysports.com
    Gary,

    Did you check both glider and hangar door for paint transfer that quite often occurs in situations like that?
    No chance of a claim here - there is no evidence of negligence on the part of the hangar owner (the weather caused the accident and try suing the weather).

    Tom

    I come from a family of lawyers, get a good one, the right one and you can sue the tide for going out and the sun for going down. Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack. You mean you didn't have your own insurance? I had a lightning strike on my
    house last year which resulted in a house fire, weather related for sure but my insurance paid off nicely. I have to give my insurance company credit, they handled it very well. I could not have written that repair writeup like my adjuster did, I'd
    have shot myself in the head after the first page. I have essentially a new home and they paid for my hotel for 10 months.

    Walt Connelly

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  • From Mark Mocho@21:1/5 to All on Tue Aug 16 07:53:23 2022
    I come from a family of lawyers, get a good one, the right one and you can sue the tide for going out and the sun for going down.

    In encapsulated form, this is one of the main things wrong in the US vs. the rest of the world. My opinion.

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  • From [email protected]@21:1/5 to Mark Mocho on Tue Aug 16 09:01:25 2022
    On Tuesday, August 16, 2022 at 10:53:25 AM UTC-4, Mark Mocho wrote:
    I come from a family of lawyers, get a good one, the right one and you can sue the tide for going out and the sun for going down.
    In encapsulated form, this is one of the main things wrong in the US vs. the rest of the world. My opinion.

    There is a common misconception that the USA is the most litigious country in the world, not so. While it’s true that the U.S. has a large number of lawsuits crowding its courts each year, it barely cracks the Top 5 of most litigious countries in the
    world. In his book, “Exploring Global Landscapes of Litigation,” Christian Wollschlager notes that the litigation rates per 1,000 people shows that European nations top the list of the world’s most litigious countries. Here is a list of the top 5
    most litigious countries by capita: 1. Germany: 123.2/1,000 2. Sweden: 111.2/1,000 (I'm sure our Swede friends will deny this as they deny problems with immigrants). 3. Israel: 96.8/1,000 4. Austria: 95.9/1,000 5. U.S.: 74.5/1,000. The Top 10 also
    includes the UK (64.4); Denmark (62.5); Hungary (52.4); Portugal (40.7); and France (40.3).

    I would consult an attorney to see what my rights to recovery might be. I'm not sure why someone would not have insurance on a glider for such an occurrence but Insurance was the one course in the CFP program that confounded me. I have found that a
    letter from an attorney gets action.

    Walt Connelly

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  • From 2G@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Tue Aug 16 17:42:15 2022
    On Tuesday, August 16, 2022 at 6:49:49 AM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
    On Tuesday, August 16, 2022 at 1:41:28 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
    On Monday, August 15, 2022 at 8:31:57 PM UTC-7, bumper wrote:
    On Sunday, August 14, 2022 at 9:15:55 AM UTC-7, Waveguru wrote:
    My beautiful 2-32 has been totally destroyed by a severe thunderstorm here in Arizona. It had 3 chains, and two strong ropes to 4 different tie downs on the glider. I suspect that a hangar door that blew off upwind hit my glider and knocked it
    from it's tie downs, but that is going to be very hard to prove to the satisfaction of the airport's insurance company. I have started a Gofundme account to help me recover and continue being able to sell rides to the public.

    https://gofund.me/ed12c2ef

    Thank you for considering a donation.

    Gary Boggs
    www.nwskysports.com
    Gary,

    Did you check both glider and hangar door for paint transfer that quite often occurs in situations like that?
    No chance of a claim here - there is no evidence of negligence on the part of the hangar owner (the weather caused the accident and try suing the weather).

    Tom
    I come from a family of lawyers, get a good one, the right one and you can sue the tide for going out and the sun for going down. Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack. You mean you didn't have your own insurance? I had a lightning strike on my
    house last year which resulted in a house fire, weather related for sure but my insurance paid off nicely. I have to give my insurance company credit, they handled it very well. I could not have written that repair writeup like my adjuster did, I'd have
    shot myself in the head after the first page. I have essentially a new home and they paid for my hotel for 10 months.

    Walt Connelly

    Your insurance paid because it covered the hazard (you did not sue the weather). The hangar was not the cause of the damage, the weather was. Here is a similar situation:
    https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/my-tree-fell-neighbors-garage-who-pays.html
    Also, I said NOTHING about the insurance I carry and it is irrelevant in any case.

    Tom

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  • From [email protected]@21:1/5 to All on Wed Aug 17 06:12:54 2022
    On Tuesday, August 16, 2022 at 8:42:18 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
    On Tuesday, August 16, 2022 at 6:49:49 AM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
    On Tuesday, August 16, 2022 at 1:41:28 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
    On Monday, August 15, 2022 at 8:31:57 PM UTC-7, bumper wrote:
    On Sunday, August 14, 2022 at 9:15:55 AM UTC-7, Waveguru wrote:
    My beautiful 2-32 has been totally destroyed by a severe thunderstorm here in Arizona. It had 3 chains, and two strong ropes to 4 different tie downs on the glider. I suspect that a hangar door that blew off upwind hit my glider and knocked it
    from it's tie downs, but that is going to be very hard to prove to the satisfaction of the airport's insurance company. I have started a Gofundme account to help me recover and continue being able to sell rides to the public.

    https://gofund.me/ed12c2ef

    Thank you for considering a donation.

    Gary Boggs
    www.nwskysports.com
    Gary,

    Did you check both glider and hangar door for paint transfer that quite often occurs in situations like that?
    No chance of a claim here - there is no evidence of negligence on the part of the hangar owner (the weather caused the accident and try suing the weather).

    Tom
    I come from a family of lawyers, get a good one, the right one and you can sue the tide for going out and the sun for going down. Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack. You mean you didn't have your own insurance? I had a lightning strike on my
    house last year which resulted in a house fire, weather related for sure but my insurance paid off nicely. I have to give my insurance company credit, they handled it very well. I could not have written that repair writeup like my adjuster did, I'd have
    shot myself in the head after the first page. I have essentially a new home and they paid for my hotel for 10 months.

    Walt Connelly
    Your insurance paid because it covered the hazard (you did not sue the weather). The hangar was not the cause of the damage, the weather was. Here is a similar situation:
    https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/my-tree-fell-neighbors-garage-who-pays.html
    Also, I said NOTHING about the insurance I carry and it is irrelevant in any case.

    Tom

    So your insurance doesn't cover this particular hazard? Obviously weather can't be sued but hurricane, wind, hale and other forms of weather damage are usually covered under insurance unless specifically omitted. It appeared to me that asking for
    support via a Go Fund me page indicated you were uninsured.

    Walt

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  • From Frank Whiteley@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Wed Aug 17 09:56:32 2022
    On Wednesday, August 17, 2022 at 7:12:57 AM UTC-6, [email protected] wrote:
    On Tuesday, August 16, 2022 at 8:42:18 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
    On Tuesday, August 16, 2022 at 6:49:49 AM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
    On Tuesday, August 16, 2022 at 1:41:28 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
    On Monday, August 15, 2022 at 8:31:57 PM UTC-7, bumper wrote:
    On Sunday, August 14, 2022 at 9:15:55 AM UTC-7, Waveguru wrote:
    My beautiful 2-32 has been totally destroyed by a severe thunderstorm here in Arizona. It had 3 chains, and two strong ropes to 4 different tie downs on the glider. I suspect that a hangar door that blew off upwind hit my glider and knocked
    it from it's tie downs, but that is going to be very hard to prove to the satisfaction of the airport's insurance company. I have started a Gofundme account to help me recover and continue being able to sell rides to the public.

    https://gofund.me/ed12c2ef

    Thank you for considering a donation.

    Gary Boggs
    www.nwskysports.com
    Gary,

    Did you check both glider and hangar door for paint transfer that quite often occurs in situations like that?
    No chance of a claim here - there is no evidence of negligence on the part of the hangar owner (the weather caused the accident and try suing the weather).

    Tom
    I come from a family of lawyers, get a good one, the right one and you can sue the tide for going out and the sun for going down. Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack. You mean you didn't have your own insurance? I had a lightning strike on my
    house last year which resulted in a house fire, weather related for sure but my insurance paid off nicely. I have to give my insurance company credit, they handled it very well. I could not have written that repair writeup like my adjuster did, I'd have
    shot myself in the head after the first page. I have essentially a new home and they paid for my hotel for 10 months.

    Walt Connelly
    Your insurance paid because it covered the hazard (you did not sue the weather). The hangar was not the cause of the damage, the weather was. Here is a similar situation:
    https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/my-tree-fell-neighbors-garage-who-pays.html
    Also, I said NOTHING about the insurance I carry and it is irrelevant in any case.

    Tom
    So your insurance doesn't cover this particular hazard? Obviously weather can't be sued but hurricane, wind, hale and other forms of weather damage are usually covered under insurance unless specifically omitted. It appeared to me that asking for
    support via a Go Fund me page indicated you were uninsured.

    Walt
    Pat Costello and I had a discussion about this at one point. Insurance doesn't cover act of god events (weather). Someone is negligent and must attest to that, whether it's failure to use adequate tie-downs or parked under a tree that the wind uprooted.
    Now, an inadequately secured hangar door that departed the structure and damaged property as a result could assign some negligence. However, hangar owner/operator insurance is expensive. Airport hangars may be publicly owned or privately owned on
    property leases. That's were the courts will assign responsibility and damages, but getting there probably exceeds the cost of insurance premiums.

    Frank

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  • From Mark Mocho@21:1/5 to All on Wed Aug 17 11:01:50 2022
    Pat Costello and I had a discussion about this at one point. Insurance doesn't cover act of god events (weather).

    Well, that can't be true in all cases. Seems to be a lot of folks collecting when their house floats away in a flood. And then they rebuild in the same spot. Federal flood insurance is offered at a discount, so there is no incentive to take the hint and
    move to higher ground.

    And your homeowner's insurance certainly covers you when lightning hits.

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  • From [email protected]@21:1/5 to Mark Mocho on Wed Aug 17 12:04:49 2022
    On Wednesday, August 17, 2022 at 2:01:52 PM UTC-4, Mark Mocho wrote:
    Pat Costello and I had a discussion about this at one point. Insurance doesn't cover act of god events (weather).
    Well, that can't be true in all cases. Seems to be a lot of folks collecting when their house floats away in a flood. And then they rebuild in the same spot. Federal flood insurance is offered at a discount, so there is no incentive to take the hint
    and move to higher ground.

    And your homeowner's insurance certainly covers you when lightning hits.

    Very true, I would be in deep doo doo if my insurance didn't cover a lightning strike. Methinks someone might have been uninsured or under insured but I would always have an attorney look at the situation.

    I've had my roof replaced after severe hail damage which was weather/act of God related. Insurance company looked at it and denied me first time but I had a roofing company inspect it WITH the insurance company representative (under advice from a family
    attorney). and they then approved the replacement. Insurance companies will try to not pay, that's how they make money but I have to say mine came thru for me.

    I also had replacement cost coverage on contents and instead of recovering leather exercise equipment they just throw it away and reimburse you for the total cost. Seemed odd to me but that's how they do it. Seems soot can destroy leather and fabric
    over time.

    Walt Connelly

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  • From Andy Blackburn@21:1/5 to All on Wed Aug 17 12:57:48 2022
    This is all interesting from a general, theoretical perspective. I'm going to put my ship in the box more often when storms are possible.

    The practical consideration (and the point of this thread) is that Gary is without an airplane that is both his livelihood and enables a service to the sport. I decided to help out.

    Andy Blackburn
    9B

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  • From Frank Whiteley@21:1/5 to Mark Mocho on Wed Aug 17 20:22:39 2022
    On Wednesday, August 17, 2022 at 12:01:52 PM UTC-6, Mark Mocho wrote:
    Pat Costello and I had a discussion about this at one point. Insurance doesn't cover act of god events (weather).
    Well, that can't be true in all cases. Seems to be a lot of folks collecting when their house floats away in a flood. And then they rebuild in the same spot. Federal flood insurance is offered at a discount, so there is no incentive to take the hint
    and move to higher ground.

    And your homeowner's insurance certainly covers you when lightning hits.
    We were discussing aircraft claims. Each insurance pool has different coverages and exclusions, which may change time to time. The government has had some say in which coverages must be offered, especially to homeowners, either as an inclusion or an
    option.

    Flood insurance is optional, but we had it on my father-in-law's home and had a near miss in 2013. It was $800/year. Many years ago, he and his brothers and family successfully sandbagged around the house during one flood. My wife's aunt did not have
    it and her house was destroyed in our 2013 flood. Her children built her a new house at their expense. IIRC, there was a recent remapping of flood plains nation wide. Locally, I've known people to be denied building permits to construct a new house to
    replace the old farm house in the same location because it is in a flood plain.

    I received a letter from Safeco one year concerning my Seattle area house advising me that it was no longer covered under their plan for earthquakes and that I would have to seek supplemental earthquake insurance elsewhere. This was shortly after the
    discovery the "Seattle Fault" running E-W under Seattle. https://www.seattle.gov/Documents/Departments/Emergency/PlansOEM/SHIVA/2014-04-23_Earthquakes(0).pdf https://www.washington.edu/alumni/columns/top10/fault.html

    Frank Whiteley

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  • From 2G@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Wed Aug 17 20:47:46 2022
    On Wednesday, August 17, 2022 at 6:12:57 AM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
    On Tuesday, August 16, 2022 at 8:42:18 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
    On Tuesday, August 16, 2022 at 6:49:49 AM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
    On Tuesday, August 16, 2022 at 1:41:28 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
    On Monday, August 15, 2022 at 8:31:57 PM UTC-7, bumper wrote:
    On Sunday, August 14, 2022 at 9:15:55 AM UTC-7, Waveguru wrote:
    My beautiful 2-32 has been totally destroyed by a severe thunderstorm here in Arizona. It had 3 chains, and two strong ropes to 4 different tie downs on the glider. I suspect that a hangar door that blew off upwind hit my glider and knocked
    it from it's tie downs, but that is going to be very hard to prove to the satisfaction of the airport's insurance company. I have started a Gofundme account to help me recover and continue being able to sell rides to the public.

    https://gofund.me/ed12c2ef

    Thank you for considering a donation.

    Gary Boggs
    www.nwskysports.com
    Gary,

    Did you check both glider and hangar door for paint transfer that quite often occurs in situations like that?
    No chance of a claim here - there is no evidence of negligence on the part of the hangar owner (the weather caused the accident and try suing the weather).

    Tom
    I come from a family of lawyers, get a good one, the right one and you can sue the tide for going out and the sun for going down. Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack. You mean you didn't have your own insurance? I had a lightning strike on my
    house last year which resulted in a house fire, weather related for sure but my insurance paid off nicely. I have to give my insurance company credit, they handled it very well. I could not have written that repair writeup like my adjuster did, I'd have
    shot myself in the head after the first page. I have essentially a new home and they paid for my hotel for 10 months.

    Walt Connelly
    Your insurance paid because it covered the hazard (you did not sue the weather). The hangar was not the cause of the damage, the weather was. Here is a similar situation:
    https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/my-tree-fell-neighbors-garage-who-pays.html
    Also, I said NOTHING about the insurance I carry and it is irrelevant in any case.

    Tom
    So your insurance doesn't cover this particular hazard? Obviously weather can't be sued but hurricane, wind, hale and other forms of weather damage are usually covered under insurance unless specifically omitted. It appeared to me that asking for
    support via a Go Fund me page indicated you were uninsured.

    Walt

    Again, my insurance situation is irrelevant. Boggs obviously wasn't insured and didn't answer my question to that effect. So, WHY does he expect us to reimburse him for his negligence?

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  • From Waveguru@21:1/5 to All on Thu Aug 18 04:45:14 2022
    I have liability only insurance. I don't expect anyone to donate. I do really appreciate any and all donations to help me get thru this and back to promoting out sport. Thanks to all that choose to help.

    Boggs

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  • From John Sinclair@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Thu Aug 18 06:56:33 2022
    On Thursday, August 18, 2022 at 6:21:57 AM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
    On Wednesday, August 17, 2022 at 3:57:51 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
    This is all interesting from a general, theoretical perspective. I'm going to put my ship in the box more often when storms are possible.

    The practical consideration (and the point of this thread) is that Gary is without an airplane that is both his livelihood and enables a service to the sport. I decided to help out.

    Andy Blackburn
    9B
    My take away from this thread is that we should always insure those items which directly impact our livelihood.






    Same kind of situation occurred at Minden a while back. Big overnight wind and one gliders tie downs failed allowing the ship to slide into another glider! Both ships had liability only insurance. The hitt’ee took the hitter to small claims court,
    saying the hitter failed to properly secure his ship! Ten gliders were tied down and only the hitters ship broke loose! Therefore, he should be responsible for damages incurred!

    Court ruled ……………Act of God!

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  • From [email protected]@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Thu Aug 18 06:21:54 2022
    On Wednesday, August 17, 2022 at 3:57:51 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
    This is all interesting from a general, theoretical perspective. I'm going to put my ship in the box more often when storms are possible.

    The practical consideration (and the point of this thread) is that Gary is without an airplane that is both his livelihood and enables a service to the sport. I decided to help out.

    Andy Blackburn
    9B

    My take away from this thread is that we should always insure those items which directly impact our livelihood.

    Walt Connelly

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  • From Roy B.@21:1/5 to All on Thu Aug 18 12:53:05 2022
    You guys are talking about two different situations: When you have a contract with your insurance company your rights are governed by the contract - so "Act of God" is irrelevant - the contract provides whatever coverage you bought. But when somebody
    sues somebody else, the matter is governed by the common law of torts - in which "Act of God" is a defense. Stated differently, the law is different when its what we call a hull claim ( which the insurance company must pay per the contract) compared
    to a liability claim where the insurance company's contract is to defend its customer and can assert all kinds of defenses.
    ROY

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  • From Ramy@21:1/5 to Frank Whiteley on Thu Aug 18 12:32:28 2022
    Frank, that can’t be true. If your glider is insured it is covered in all cases, in the air and on the ground, due to neglect or not (as long as it was not intentional of course). Canopies get blown out by winds all the time and covered by insurance.

    Ramy

    On Wednesday, August 17, 2022 at 8:22:41 PM UTC-7, Frank Whiteley wrote:
    On Wednesday, August 17, 2022 at 12:01:52 PM UTC-6, Mark Mocho wrote:
    Pat Costello and I had a discussion about this at one point. Insurance doesn't cover act of god events (weather).
    Well, that can't be true in all cases. Seems to be a lot of folks collecting when their house floats away in a flood. And then they rebuild in the same spot. Federal flood insurance is offered at a discount, so there is no incentive to take the hint
    and move to higher ground.

    And your homeowner's insurance certainly covers you when lightning hits.
    We were discussing aircraft claims. Each insurance pool has different coverages and exclusions, which may change time to time. The government has had some say in which coverages must be offered, especially to homeowners, either as an inclusion or an
    option.

    Flood insurance is optional, but we had it on my father-in-law's home and had a near miss in 2013. It was $800/year. Many years ago, he and his brothers and family successfully sandbagged around the house during one flood. My wife's aunt did not have
    it and her house was destroyed in our 2013 flood. Her children built her a new house at their expense. IIRC, there was a recent remapping of flood plains nation wide. Locally, I've known people to be denied building permits to construct a new house to
    replace the old farm house in the same location because it is in a flood plain.

    I received a letter from Safeco one year concerning my Seattle area house advising me that it was no longer covered under their plan for earthquakes and that I would have to seek supplemental earthquake insurance elsewhere. This was shortly after the
    discovery the "Seattle Fault" running E-W under Seattle. https://www.seattle.gov/Documents/Departments/Emergency/PlansOEM/SHIVA/2014-04-23_Earthquakes(0).pdf https://www.washington.edu/alumni/columns/top10/fault.html

    Frank Whiteley

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  • From Ramy@21:1/5 to Roy B. on Thu Aug 18 13:25:26 2022
    Correct. We should qualify which insurance we talking about. Hull vs liability.
    Costello’s hull insurance would have covered this scenario.
    Frank’s comment implied it wouldn’t, but I guess he was referring to liability insurance.

    Ramy

    On Thursday, August 18, 2022 at 12:53:07 PM UTC-7, Roy B. wrote:
    You guys are talking about two different situations: When you have a contract with your insurance company your rights are governed by the contract - so "Act of God" is irrelevant - the contract provides whatever coverage you bought. But when somebody
    sues somebody else, the matter is governed by the common law of torts - in which "Act of God" is a defense. Stated differently, the law is different when its what we call a hull claim ( which the insurance company must pay per the contract) compared to a
    liability claim where the insurance company's contract is to defend its customer and can assert all kinds of defenses.
    ROY

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  • From 2G@21:1/5 to Ramy on Thu Aug 18 22:26:33 2022
    On Thursday, August 18, 2022 at 1:25:29 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
    Correct. We should qualify which insurance we talking about. Hull vs liability.
    Costello’s hull insurance would have covered this scenario.
    Frank’s comment implied it wouldn’t, but I guess he was referring to liability insurance.

    Ramy
    On Thursday, August 18, 2022 at 12:53:07 PM UTC-7, Roy B. wrote:
    You guys are talking about two different situations: When you have a contract with your insurance company your rights are governed by the contract - so "Act of God" is irrelevant - the contract provides whatever coverage you bought. But when somebody
    sues somebody else, the matter is governed by the common law of torts - in which "Act of God" is a defense. Stated differently, the law is different when its what we call a hull claim ( which the insurance company must pay per the contract) compared to a
    liability claim where the insurance company's contract is to defend its customer and can assert all kinds of defenses.
    ROY

    Those that don't insure their gliders (or anything else for that matter) should be financially prepared for a total loss and not ask others to pay for their lack of preparedness.

    Tom

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  • From krasw@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Fri Aug 19 01:11:35 2022
    On Tuesday, 16 August 2022 at 17:01:27 UTC+1, [email protected] wrote:
    On Tuesday, August 16, 2022 at 10:53:25 AM UTC-4, Mark Mocho wrote:
    I come from a family of lawyers, get a good one, the right one and you can sue the tide for going out and the sun for going down.
    In encapsulated form, this is one of the main things wrong in the US vs. the rest of the world. My opinion.

    I can assure you that "to sue someone" doesn't even belong vocabulary in most civilized countries. Hiring a lawyer could easily cost more than the hull value? Maybe it's worth it, after all, you get to sue someone.

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  • From [email protected]@21:1/5 to krasw on Fri Aug 19 05:56:52 2022
    On Friday, August 19, 2022 at 4:11:37 AM UTC-4, krasw wrote:
    On Tuesday, 16 August 2022 at 17:01:27 UTC+1, [email protected] wrote:
    On Tuesday, August 16, 2022 at 10:53:25 AM UTC-4, Mark Mocho wrote:
    I come from a family of lawyers, get a good one, the right one and you can sue the tide for going out and the sun for going down.
    In encapsulated form, this is one of the main things wrong in the US vs. the rest of the world. My opinion.
    I can assure you that "to sue someone" doesn't even belong vocabulary in most civilized countries. Hiring a lawyer could easily cost more than the hull value? Maybe it's worth it, after all, you get to sue someone.

    As I previously pointed out, There is a common misconception that the USA is the most litigious country in the world, not so. While it’s true that the U.S. has a large number of lawsuits crowding its courts each year, it barely cracks the Top 5 of most
    litigious countries in the world. In his book, “Exploring Global Landscapes of Litigation,” Christian Wollschlager notes that the litigation rates per 1,000 people shows that European nations top the list of the world’s most litigious countries.
    Here is a list of the top 5 most litigious countries by capita: 1. Germany: 123.2/1,000 2. Sweden: 111.2/1,000 (I'm sure our Swede friends will deny this as they deny problems with immigrants). 3. Israel: 96.8/1,000 4. Austria: 95.9/1,000 5. U.S.: 74.5/1,
    000. The Top 10 also includes the UK (64.4); Denmark (62.5); Hungary (52.4); Portugal (40.7); and France (40.3).

    The law suit is a way for a wrong to be corrected. While the USA leads the world in class action lawsuits, class actions have proven themselves to be an effective means to bring large scale wrongdoers to justice.

    I am suggesting that one pay an attorney for an opinion regarding ones right to recovery. Most reputable lawyers will give you a good idea regarding your chances of prevailing in a suit. To not have hull insurance on an instrument critical to your
    income is folly.

    Walt Connelly

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  • From [email protected]@21:1/5 to All on Fri Aug 19 06:06:30 2022
    On Friday, August 19, 2022 at 1:26:35 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
    On Thursday, August 18, 2022 at 1:25:29 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
    Correct. We should qualify which insurance we talking about. Hull vs liability.
    Costello’s hull insurance would have covered this scenario.
    Frank’s comment implied it wouldn’t, but I guess he was referring to liability insurance.

    Ramy
    On Thursday, August 18, 2022 at 12:53:07 PM UTC-7, Roy B. wrote:
    You guys are talking about two different situations: When you have a contract with your insurance company your rights are governed by the contract - so "Act of God" is irrelevant - the contract provides whatever coverage you bought. But when
    somebody sues somebody else, the matter is governed by the common law of torts - in which "Act of God" is a defense. Stated differently, the law is different when its what we call a hull claim ( which the insurance company must pay per the contract)
    compared to a liability claim where the insurance company's contract is to defend its customer and can assert all kinds of defenses.
    ROY
    Those that don't insure their gliders (or anything else for that matter) should be financially prepared for a total loss and not ask others to pay for their lack of preparedness.

    Tom

    Looks like he is asking for 75K and has raised about 13K so far. Nice to have friends with money.
    My brother, a former tax attorney/family law/elder law attorney and currently retired tells me that contributions made to crowdfunding campaigns like Go Fund Me are considered to be personal gifts and are not taxed as income to the recipient as long as
    they are under a certain amount. The IRS does not consider fundraising proceeds a taxable source of income. I do occasionally give in such situations but I limit them to friends with cancer and high deductibles and a paralyzed friend in need to
    expensive rehab not covered by his insurance.

    Buy insurance and pay the premium my friends. I learned how valuable it can be recently.

    Walt Connelly

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  • From Frank Whiteley@21:1/5 to Ramy on Fri Aug 19 06:59:32 2022
    On Thursday, August 18, 2022 at 2:25:29 PM UTC-6, Ramy wrote:
    Correct. We should qualify which insurance we talking about. Hull vs liability.
    Costello’s hull insurance would have covered this scenario.
    Frank’s comment implied it wouldn’t, but I guess he was referring to liability insurance.

    Ramy
    On Thursday, August 18, 2022 at 12:53:07 PM UTC-7, Roy B. wrote:
    You guys are talking about two different situations: When you have a contract with your insurance company your rights are governed by the contract - so "Act of God" is irrelevant - the contract provides whatever coverage you bought. But when somebody
    sues somebody else, the matter is governed by the common law of torts - in which "Act of God" is a defense. Stated differently, the law is different when its what we call a hull claim ( which the insurance company must pay per the contract) compared to a
    liability claim where the insurance company's contract is to defend its customer and can assert all kinds of defenses.
    ROY
    Ramy,

    No, I was talking about negligence. A tied out glider that blows away is a result of negligence, that is, failure to adequately secure it against that happening or otherwise protecting it against the elements. The owner has to own and accept that in
    settlement of the claim. Three substantial claims due to an owner's negligence will likely result in becoming uninsurable or significantly higher premiums. This happens at both the individual and organizational level. Insisting that the weather was
    solely responsible will likely result in a result in a denial because the policy doesn't cover weather damage. Gust locks anyone?

    Frank

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  • From Frank Whiteley@21:1/5 to Frank Whiteley on Fri Aug 19 08:03:29 2022
    On Friday, August 19, 2022 at 7:59:34 AM UTC-6, Frank Whiteley wrote:
    On Thursday, August 18, 2022 at 2:25:29 PM UTC-6, Ramy wrote:
    Correct. We should qualify which insurance we talking about. Hull vs liability.
    Costello’s hull insurance would have covered this scenario.
    Frank’s comment implied it wouldn’t, but I guess he was referring to liability insurance.

    Ramy
    On Thursday, August 18, 2022 at 12:53:07 PM UTC-7, Roy B. wrote:
    You guys are talking about two different situations: When you have a contract with your insurance company your rights are governed by the contract - so "Act of God" is irrelevant - the contract provides whatever coverage you bought. But when
    somebody sues somebody else, the matter is governed by the common law of torts - in which "Act of God" is a defense. Stated differently, the law is different when its what we call a hull claim ( which the insurance company must pay per the contract)
    compared to a liability claim where the insurance company's contract is to defend its customer and can assert all kinds of defenses.
    ROY
    Ramy,

    No, I was talking about negligence. A tied out glider that blows away is a result of negligence, that is, failure to adequately secure it against that happening or otherwise protecting it against the elements. The owner has to own and accept that in
    settlement of the claim. Three substantial claims due to an owner's negligence will likely result in becoming uninsurable or significantly higher premiums. This happens at both the individual and organizational level. Insisting that the weather was
    solely responsible will likely result in a result in a denial because the policy doesn't cover weather damage. Gust locks anyone?

    Frank
    I was also referring to the SSA Group Hull & Liability Plan. The language has changed in recent years also. At one time, club insurance explicitly stated that for scenic rides, a current commercial or higher rated pilot must be the sole manipulator of
    the controls. That language no longer exists. Also, based on past performance (claims records) clubs are offered options of higher per passenger limits, broader towing privileges, and club based decisions on tow pilots. IOW, rather than the
    underwriter defining certain qualifications, those decisions may be (or are) left to the 'named insured' regarding how you operate. Maybe you recall at one point that in order for a club to tow a visiting pilot, that pilot had to be an SSA member of a
    club also insured under the group plan. That language no longer exists, but you must also read your own policy. Would you want to tow a non-SSA member? Would you want to tow someone whose insurance may have a $100K 'per person' limit on their
    liability? These are now the responsibility of the 'named insured'. So, what do your state statutes say about your club/chapter indemnifying your officers whether or not you are a non-profit? Should you carry D&O insurance?

    Last year, while helping contest organizers with contest management issues on the SSA members server, I noted that a few contest managers were not SSA members, but rather S.O.s of SSA members and were not members of the host organizations. I asked
    myself the question, when the contest host purchases 'air meet' insurance, who is covered? A call to our broker revealed that only members of the host organization were covered. Volunteers could be covered by adding them as 'named insured'. In
    addition, one regional host was an LLC that had few members and they certainly did not include the volunteers. The broker staff provided a solution to the coverage to include language covering 'volunteers', which, of course, are how these events are
    staffed. Fortunately that appears never have to been tested.

    Settlements are always confidential, thus it's difficult to provide specific clarity to our community. In an injury incident at Tonapah, NTSB Identification: LAX02LA231, the resulting demands named several parties, including the SSA. In another, a
    contest organizer settled personally. I was asked to participate as an expert witness (among others) for a 2021 gliding accident. Perhaps some here have also done so at some point. There were three legal teams; the plaintiff, the organization, and the
    CFI-G. We all met at the location to inspect the site, the glider, and associated equipment and for confidential discussions. The case was settled, the details of which are confidential even to the expert witnesses. The team attorney would only affirm
    that it was within the limits of the coverages, though I believe the original demand was rather higher from a comment made in the SSA Insurance Liaison Report to the SSA Winter Board Meeting.

    Please fly safely and take care of equipment and friends,

    Frank Whiteley

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  • From Ramy@21:1/5 to Frank Whiteley on Fri Aug 19 09:26:31 2022
    Just to clarify again, we need to qualify which type of insurance.
    The Costello hull insurance that most private owners carry will cover damages to your glider even if it wasn’t tied down well enough. Negligence or not you are covered. Of course too many claims may eventually result in becoming uninsured.
    To be sure I asked Costello and received the following answer:
    “ your coverage includes both ground and flight loss exposures. Examples of ground losses would be things like storm damage, highway accidents, fire, vandalism, etc. If your glider is tied out and it sustains weather damage, that would be an exposure
    your policy would address.”

    Ramy

    On Friday, August 19, 2022 at 6:59:34 AM UTC-7, Frank Whiteley wrote:
    On Thursday, August 18, 2022 at 2:25:29 PM UTC-6, Ramy wrote:
    Correct. We should qualify which insurance we talking about. Hull vs liability.
    Costello’s hull insurance would have covered this scenario.
    Frank’s comment implied it wouldn’t, but I guess he was referring to liability insurance.

    Ramy
    On Thursday, August 18, 2022 at 12:53:07 PM UTC-7, Roy B. wrote:
    You guys are talking about two different situations: When you have a contract with your insurance company your rights are governed by the contract - so "Act of God" is irrelevant - the contract provides whatever coverage you bought. But when
    somebody sues somebody else, the matter is governed by the common law of torts - in which "Act of God" is a defense. Stated differently, the law is different when its what we call a hull claim ( which the insurance company must pay per the contract)
    compared to a liability claim where the insurance company's contract is to defend its customer and can assert all kinds of defenses.
    ROY
    Ramy,

    No, I was talking about negligence. A tied out glider that blows away is a result of negligence, that is, failure to adequately secure it against that happening or otherwise protecting it against the elements. The owner has to own and accept that in
    settlement of the claim. Three substantial claims due to an owner's negligence will likely result in becoming uninsurable or significantly higher premiums. This happens at both the individual and organizational level. Insisting that the weather was
    solely responsible will likely result in a result in a denial because the policy doesn't cover weather damage. Gust locks anyone?

    Frank

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  • From Frank Whiteley@21:1/5 to Ramy on Fri Aug 19 10:35:48 2022
    On Friday, August 19, 2022 at 10:26:33 AM UTC-6, Ramy wrote:
    Just to clarify again, we need to qualify which type of insurance.
    The Costello hull insurance that most private owners carry will cover damages to your glider even if it wasn’t tied down well enough. Negligence or not you are covered. Of course too many claims may eventually result in becoming uninsured.
    To be sure I asked Costello and received the following answer:
    “ your coverage includes both ground and flight loss exposures. Examples of ground losses would be things like storm damage, highway accidents, fire, vandalism, etc. If your glider is tied out and it sustains weather damage, that would be an exposure
    your policy would address.”

    Thanks for checking. My 'weather related' claim was not storm damage but would have been denied if I had insisted that the damage was caused by weather. Again, the language in the policies may have changed since then. Of the nine two seaters destroyed
    in wind incidents in the past two years in the US, a few had no hull coverage, one was repaired at 3X the market value, and one other was perhaps repaired. Some of the commercial operators and a couple chapters suggest or require their users to have
    renter/non-owner hull (and maybe liability) coverage to operate their gliders.

    Maybe Pat can be asked to present at Reno 2023. Always interesting.

    Frank

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  • From ASM@21:1/5 to Waveguru on Fri Aug 19 21:58:01 2022
    On Sunday, August 14, 2022 at 9:15:55 AM UTC-7, Waveguru wrote:
    My beautiful 2-32 has been totally destroyed by a severe thunderstorm here in Arizona. It had 3 chains, and two strong ropes to 4 different tie downs on the glider. I suspect that a hangar door that blew off upwind hit my glider and knocked it from it'
    s tie downs, but that is going to be very hard to prove to the satisfaction of the airport's insurance company. I have started a Gofundme account to help me recover and continue being able to sell rides to the public.

    https://gofund.me/ed12c2ef

    Thank you for considering a donation.

    Gary Boggs
    www.nwskysports.com

    Gary, in August issue of Soaring Magazine in the classified section there is 2-32 for sale for $30000. An option?

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  • From krasw@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Sun Aug 21 01:45:53 2022
    On Friday, 19 August 2022 at 13:56:54 UTC+1, [email protected] wrote:

    The law suit is a way for a wrong to be corrected.

    Walt Connelly

    I love the idea hear that some poor guy owning hangar is guilty of severe storm blowing hangar door away, and some expensive layer is needed to correct this "wrong". Let's not pretend that this makes any sense in any country other than US.

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  • From [email protected]@21:1/5 to krasw on Sun Aug 21 05:17:35 2022
    On Sunday, August 21, 2022 at 4:45:55 AM UTC-4, krasw wrote:
    On Friday, 19 August 2022 at 13:56:54 UTC+1, [email protected] wrote:

    The law suit is a way for a wrong to be corrected.

    Walt Connelly

    I love the idea hear that some poor guy owning hangar is guilty of severe storm blowing hangar door away, and some expensive layer is needed to correct this "wrong". Let's not pretend that this makes any sense in any country other than US.

    Poor guy owning a hangar? Poor is a very relative term, you must mean poor as in poor, sad, sap. If a facility is properly maintained the door should not blow off in anything other than the most severe of weather conditions. No, the "poor guy" didn't
    cause the storm. I have a two million dollar blanket policy to protect me if someone walks onto my property and trips on my sidewalk or driveway, recommended for anyone who has substantial attachable assets. I have previously pointed out the
    countries other than the USofA who have a high percentage of law suits. Let's not pretend that the USofA is the only country in which this happens. We will obviously have to agree to disagree on this subject, have a great day.

    Walt Connelly

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  • From Eric Greenwell@21:1/5 to krasw on Sun Aug 21 06:36:59 2022
    On 8/21/2022 1:45 AM, krasw wrote:
    On Friday, 19 August 2022 at 13:56:54 UTC+1, [email protected] wrote:

    The law suit is a way for a wrong to be corrected.

    Walt Connelly

    I love the idea hear that some poor guy owning hangar is guilty of severe storm blowing hangar door away, and some expensive layer is needed to correct this "wrong". Let's not pretend that this makes any sense in any country other than US.

    Lots of assumptions here: we don't know if the hangar owner, or the hangar user (may not
    be the same person) took adequate precautions, or if there was liability insurance that
    could/should cover damage to others in a case like this, or that it's going to take an
    "expensive" lawyer to get restitution.

    I agree with Walt: the USA is definitely not the worst. Here's an anecdote from 28 years
    ago: Tug Wilson, British airline pilot and motorglider pilot, had lived in many countries
    around the world while flying for the airlines. He said the US had the best bureaucracies
    of any of those countries he'd lived in, from local officials, state officials, post
    office, even the FAA, and the legal system was the easiest to deal with. Government and
    legal corruption was the lowest, and he compared it to Spain (where he was living at the
    time), saying you needed a lawyer to get many things done that you could do with a phone
    call to city hall in the US, and sometimes needed to hire a lawyer to sue the first lawyer.

    I've heard Spain has significantly improved, but I believe what Tug said is still true:
    "If you don't like US bureaucracies, you're going to hate them everywhere else".

    --
    Eric Greenwell - USA
    - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
    https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

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  • From R@21:1/5 to All on Sun Aug 21 06:16:23 2022
    It’s just Rizhard trolling using his anti-US sentiments for bait. He’s angry because Ruska and the Limeys keep using Poland for a soccer field. Of course living in New Jersey is not helping his attitude. So….the Poles do make good glider pilots.

    R

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  • From Dan Marotta@21:1/5 to Eric Greenwell on Sun Aug 21 08:39:46 2022
    I've bought houses in FL, TX, CO, NY, and NM and only in NY was a layer
    needed for the transaction. In fact THREE lawyers were required to buy
    a house in New York. Seemed excessive to me so I asked our realtor who
    said, "There are a lot of law schools in NY."

    Try to get a pilot's license in Australia when you have a US ATP and
    you're only in the country on business for three weeks. But that's
    another story.

    Dan
    5J

    On 8/21/22 07:36, Eric Greenwell wrote:
    On 8/21/2022 1:45 AM, krasw wrote:
    On Friday, 19 August 2022 at 13:56:54 UTC+1, [email protected] wrote:

    The law suit is a way for a wrong to be corrected.

    Walt Connelly

    I love the idea hear that some poor guy owning hangar is guilty of
    severe storm blowing hangar door away, and some expensive layer is
    needed to correct this "wrong". Let's not pretend that this makes any
    sense in any country other than US.

    Lots of assumptions here: we don't know if the hangar owner, or the
    hangar user (may not be the same person) took adequate precautions, or
    if there was liability insurance that could/should cover damage to
    others in a case like this, or that it's going to take an "expensive"
    lawyer to get restitution.

    I agree with Walt: the USA is definitely not the worst. Here's an
    anecdote from 28 years ago: Tug Wilson, British airline pilot and
    motorglider pilot, had lived in many countries around the world while
    flying for the airlines. He said the US had the best bureaucracies of
    any of those countries he'd lived in, from local officials, state
    officials, post office, even the FAA, and the legal system was the
    easiest to deal with. Government and legal corruption was the lowest,
    and he compared it to Spain (where he was living at the time), saying
    you needed a lawyer to get many things done that you could do with a
    phone call to city hall in the US, and sometimes needed to hire a lawyer
    to sue the first lawyer.

    I've heard Spain has significantly improved, but I believe what Tug said
    is still true: "If you don't like US bureaucracies, you're going to hate
    them everywhere else".


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  • From Martin Gregorie@21:1/5 to Dan Marotta on Sun Aug 21 17:05:16 2022
    On Sun, 21 Aug 2022 08:39:46 -0600, Dan Marotta wrote:

    Try to get a pilot's license in Australia when you have a US ATP and
    you're only in the country on business for three weeks. But that's
    another story.

    Well...

    The US is the only place I've been escorted to the FAA examiners desk by
    an armed guard when I wanted to get a US glider licence by grandfathering
    my UK license.

    However, that was just a week after 9/11, in Denver, and the guy with the
    gun faded as I sat down at the examiner's desk.


    --

    Martin | martin at
    Gregorie | gregorie dot org

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  • From Dan Marotta@21:1/5 to Martin Gregorie on Sun Aug 21 12:56:07 2022
    Ya, and what did you have to do to get a US license? Show them your UK licence? (Did you notice the spelling?)

    In Oz, I had to pay A$150 or thereabouts and then take a written test on
    the Air Regulations. They gave me a stack of books that was, literally
    4 feet high, maybe more. Anyway, I passed the closed book test which
    covered such things as altitudes, distances, light gun signals, etc.,
    but I failed the closed book test. There just wasn't time to dig
    through all those documents which were written in the King's finest
    legalese.

    Much to my surprise, I received a refund of my test fee from the
    Australian Embassy about six weeks later!

    Dan
    5J

    On 8/21/22 11:05, Martin Gregorie wrote:
    On Sun, 21 Aug 2022 08:39:46 -0600, Dan Marotta wrote:

    Try to get a pilot's license in Australia when you have a US ATP and
    you're only in the country on business for three weeks. But that's
    another story.

    Well...

    The US is the only place I've been escorted to the FAA examiners desk by
    an armed guard when I wanted to get a US glider licence by grandfathering
    my UK license.

    However, that was just a week after 9/11, in Denver, and the guy with the
    gun faded as I sat down at the examiner's desk.



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  • From Martin Gregorie@21:1/5 to Dan Marotta on Sun Aug 21 19:44:07 2022
    On Sun, 21 Aug 2022 12:56:07 -0600, Dan Marotta wrote:

    Ya, and what did you have to do to get a US license? Show them your UK licence? (Did you notice the spelling?)

    Yes, pretty much just that, and then go to Boulder for a check ride.

    The only downer in the whole deal was a few years later, when you guys all switched to plastic licenses some years later - not an option for me
    because I'd have needed to go stateside just to pick up plastic, and for
    some reason - probably not enough unused holiday time left - it couldn't
    be tied in with anything else I'd have liked to do while on your side of
    the pond.

    In Oz, I had to pay A$150 or thereabouts and then take a written test on
    the Air Regulations. They gave me a stack of books that was, literally
    4 feet high, maybe more. Anyway, I passed the closed book test which
    covered such things as altitudes, distances, light gun signals, etc.,
    but I failed the closed book test. There just wasn't time to dig
    through all those documents which were written in the King's finest
    legalese.

    Getting an NZ ticket a year or two later was equally easy. That was done
    on the spot when I visited the Wellington club, took a check ride in a
    Twin Astir followed by a solo in the Twin Astir, got the ticket and then
    took flights in their PW-5 and Std Libelle. The Astir was easy - my club
    here had a G103 Twin Acro, so really only the PW-5 and Libelle were new
    types to me.


    --

    Martin | martin at
    Gregorie | gregorie dot org

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  • From Dan Marotta@21:1/5 to Martin Gregorie on Mon Aug 22 13:26:13 2022
    Maybe I should go to NZ, it looks absolutely beautiful! My trips to Oz
    (5 times) were business related.

    My former club in Colorado had a Twin Astir and it was nice to fly.
    Another member (Tom Serkowski) and I test flew a newly imported PW-5 for
    its owner. The guidance from the FSDO was that only documented
    maneuvers from the test flights would be authorized so Tom and I did
    stalls, spins, all sorts of aerobatics, opened the airspeed envelope,
    and air and winch tows. It was a nice flying aircraft, but ugly as a
    pug dog in a mud hole.

    I've never had the pleasure of flying a Libelle.

    Dan
    5J

    On 8/21/22 13:44, Martin Gregorie wrote:
    On Sun, 21 Aug 2022 12:56:07 -0600, Dan Marotta wrote:

    Ya, and what did you have to do to get a US license? Show them your UK
    licence? (Did you notice the spelling?)

    Yes, pretty much just that, and then go to Boulder for a check ride.

    The only downer in the whole deal was a few years later, when you guys all switched to plastic licenses some years later - not an option for me
    because I'd have needed to go stateside just to pick up plastic, and for
    some reason - probably not enough unused holiday time left - it couldn't
    be tied in with anything else I'd have liked to do while on your side of
    the pond.

    In Oz, I had to pay A$150 or thereabouts and then take a written test on
    the Air Regulations. They gave me a stack of books that was, literally
    4 feet high, maybe more. Anyway, I passed the closed book test which
    covered such things as altitudes, distances, light gun signals, etc.,
    but I failed the closed book test. There just wasn't time to dig
    through all those documents which were written in the King's finest
    legalese.

    Getting an NZ ticket a year or two later was equally easy. That was done
    on the spot when I visited the Wellington club, took a check ride in a
    Twin Astir followed by a solo in the Twin Astir, got the ticket and then
    took flights in their PW-5 and Std Libelle. The Astir was easy - my club
    here had a G103 Twin Acro, so really only the PW-5 and Libelle were new
    types to me.



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  • From Eric Greenwell@21:1/5 to Dan Marotta on Mon Aug 22 14:04:50 2022
    On 8/22/2022 12:26 PM, Dan Marotta wrote:
    Maybe I should go to NZ, it looks absolutely beautiful!  My trips to Oz (5 times) were
    business related.

    Go! It's terrific - my wife and I spent 5 weeks there 20 years ago with a van sized
    motorhome. Mostly touring, but I did fly some at Omarama (discus), and a couple other
    clubs (PW5, which is a cutey, not puggy).

    --
    Eric Greenwell - USA
    - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
    https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

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  • From Martin Gregorie@21:1/5 to Dan Marotta on Mon Aug 22 21:27:56 2022
    On Mon, 22 Aug 2022 13:26:13 -0600, Dan Marotta wrote:

    My former club in Colorado had a Twin Astir and it was nice to fly.
    Another member (Tom Serkowski) and I test flew a newly imported PW-5 for
    its owner. The guidance from the FSDO was that only documented
    maneuvers from the test flights would be authorized so Tom and I did
    stalls, spins, all sorts of aerobatics, opened the airspeed envelope,
    and air and winch tows. It was a nice flying aircraft, but ugly as a
    pug dog in a mud hole.

    One of our instructors here described the PW-5 as flying a bit like a
    paper bag, and I must say I agreed with him, but apart from that it was
    nice enough.

    BTW, in Wellington they warned me about PIO at the start of the tow - apparently some if you're a bit ham-fisted and raise the nose too fast,
    too soon you can lift off and stall it before the tow plane has rotated:
    this can cause a nosewheel-main-wheel-pitch-up-and-stall cycle. I
    carefully raised the nose a little and ran on the main until it lifted off
    with quire smoothly - just like you expect an ASK-21 do it.

    Its certainly not a pretty aircraft.

    I've never had the pleasure of flying a Libelle.

    Its about the nicest handling glider I've flown, nicely free of gotchas
    and certainly has the best all-round vision of anything I've flown: I can
    just see the rudder waggle if I kick the pedals, even with my straps
    tight, so very nice in a busy thermal. I've yet to fly anything nicer,
    though a Pegase 90 comes close (MUCH better rear viz than Juniors and
    Discii) and I like the soft ride from its bendy wings. Plus the '90 has
    fully self-connecting controls - no nasty Hoteliers to connect by feel!

    If you go to NZ you can do nice things like fly into Auckland, drive to Wellington via Waitomo, Rotorua and Taupo, catch a ferry across Cook
    Strait to Picton, check out the wine, and then either pick up another
    rental there or ride the train to Christchurch (a nice run down the coast) before picking up a car to visit Akaroa, Queenstown and Omarama (for a
    spot of mountain flying), and maybe use the Hast Pass to visit the West
    Coast on the way back to Christchurch before flying out from there.


    --

    Martin | martin at
    Gregorie | gregorie dot org

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  • From Eric Greenwell@21:1/5 to Martin Gregorie on Mon Aug 22 14:39:13 2022
    On 8/22/2022 2:27 PM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
    On Mon, 22 Aug 2022 13:26:13 -0600, Dan Marotta wrote:

    My former club in Colorado had a Twin Astir and it was nice to fly.
    Another member (Tom Serkowski) and I test flew a newly imported PW-5 for
    its owner. The guidance from the FSDO was that only documented
    maneuvers from the test flights would be authorized so Tom and I did
    stalls, spins, all sorts of aerobatics, opened the airspeed envelope,
    and air and winch tows. It was a nice flying aircraft, but ugly as a
    pug dog in a mud hole.

    One of our instructors here described the PW-5 as flying a bit like a
    paper bag, and I must say I agreed with him, but apart from that it was
    nice enough.

    BTW, in Wellington they warned me about PIO at the start of the tow - apparently some if you're a bit ham-fisted and raise the nose too fast,
    too soon you can lift off and stall it before the tow plane has rotated:
    this can cause a nosewheel-main-wheel-pitch-up-and-stall cycle. I
    carefully raised the nose a little and ran on the main until it lifted off with quire smoothly - just like you expect an ASK-21 do it.

    Its certainly not a pretty aircraft.

    I've never had the pleasure of flying a Libelle.

    Its about the nicest handling glider I've flown, nicely free of gotchas
    and certainly has the best all-round vision of anything I've flown: I can just see the rudder waggle if I kick the pedals, even with my straps
    tight, so very nice in a busy thermal. I've yet to fly anything nicer,
    though a Pegase 90 comes close (MUCH better rear viz than Juniors and
    Discii) and I like the soft ride from its bendy wings. Plus the '90 has
    fully self-connecting controls - no nasty Hoteliers to connect by feel!

    If you go to NZ you can do nice things like fly into Auckland, drive to Wellington via Waitomo, Rotorua and Taupo, catch a ferry across Cook
    Strait to Picton, check out the wine, and then either pick up another
    rental there or ride the train to Christchurch (a nice run down the coast) before picking up a car to visit Akaroa, Queenstown and Omarama (for a
    spot of mountain flying), and maybe use the Hast Pass to visit the West
    Coast on the way back to Christchurch before flying out from there.


    And the penguins! that are as cute as the PW5, and in many sizes (S to XL). And albatrosses - huge!

    --
    Eric Greenwell - USA
    - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
    https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

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  • From 2G@21:1/5 to Eric Greenwell on Mon Aug 22 15:15:44 2022
    On Monday, August 22, 2022 at 2:39:18 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
    On 8/22/2022 2:27 PM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
    On Mon, 22 Aug 2022 13:26:13 -0600, Dan Marotta wrote:

    My former club in Colorado had a Twin Astir and it was nice to fly.
    Another member (Tom Serkowski) and I test flew a newly imported PW-5 for >> its owner. The guidance from the FSDO was that only documented
    maneuvers from the test flights would be authorized so Tom and I did
    stalls, spins, all sorts of aerobatics, opened the airspeed envelope,
    and air and winch tows. It was a nice flying aircraft, but ugly as a
    pug dog in a mud hole.

    One of our instructors here described the PW-5 as flying a bit like a paper bag, and I must say I agreed with him, but apart from that it was nice enough.

    BTW, in Wellington they warned me about PIO at the start of the tow - apparently some if you're a bit ham-fisted and raise the nose too fast, too soon you can lift off and stall it before the tow plane has rotated: this can cause a nosewheel-main-wheel-pitch-up-and-stall cycle. I carefully raised the nose a little and ran on the main until it lifted off with quire smoothly - just like you expect an ASK-21 do it.

    Its certainly not a pretty aircraft.

    I've never had the pleasure of flying a Libelle.

    Its about the nicest handling glider I've flown, nicely free of gotchas and certainly has the best all-round vision of anything I've flown: I can just see the rudder waggle if I kick the pedals, even with my straps tight, so very nice in a busy thermal. I've yet to fly anything nicer, though a Pegase 90 comes close (MUCH better rear viz than Juniors and Discii) and I like the soft ride from its bendy wings. Plus the '90 has fully self-connecting controls - no nasty Hoteliers to connect by feel!

    If you go to NZ you can do nice things like fly into Auckland, drive to Wellington via Waitomo, Rotorua and Taupo, catch a ferry across Cook Strait to Picton, check out the wine, and then either pick up another rental there or ride the train to Christchurch (a nice run down the coast) before picking up a car to visit Akaroa, Queenstown and Omarama (for a spot of mountain flying), and maybe use the Hast Pass to visit the West Coast on the way back to Christchurch before flying out from there.


    And the penguins! that are as cute as the PW5, and in many sizes (S to XL). And
    albatrosses - huge!
    --
    Eric Greenwell - USA
    - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

    The only way for Gary to test some arm chair lawyers theory that the hangar owner is liable is to sue him/her, which means hiring a real lawyer. I assume Gary has already consulted a lawyer and found that avenue was a dead end. You can't go on your own
    to the hangar owner's insurance company and file a claim.

    Tom

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  • From Martin Gregorie@21:1/5 to Eric Greenwell on Tue Aug 23 14:23:18 2022
    On Mon, 22 Aug 2022 14:39:13 -0700, Eric Greenwell wrote:

    And the penguins! that are as cute as the PW5, and in many sizes (S to
    XL). And albatrosses - huge!

    Watching birds is always fun. I remember a calm trip across the Bay of
    Biscay on the Portsmouth-- Bilbao ferry. We were on the rear deck admiding
    the view. There were a flock of gannets plus a few gulls soaring wake turbulence 150m or so behind the boat and every so often a gannet would
    come toward up , evidently planning tpo soar the ship, bit thet always chickened out about 20m short and for some odd reason - turbulence? Then a
    gull tried the same thing, and started soaring the ship without so much as
    a twitch. I can only assume that gulls are better airmen than gannets.

    FWIW the birds I most admire are red kites - for my money kites are the
    most skilful soaring birds I've seen, though I've been well impressed by
    the way a pelican can soar a foot-high ripple in calm conditions.


    --

    Martin | martin at
    Gregorie | gregorie dot org

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  • From Jonathan St. Cloud@21:1/5 to Dan Marotta on Sat Sep 10 14:47:21 2022
    Squirrel

    On Sunday, August 21, 2022 at 7:39:50 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
    I've bought houses in FL, TX, CO, NY, and NM and only in NY was a layer needed for the transaction. In fact THREE lawyers were required to buy
    a house in New York. Seemed excessive to me so I asked our realtor who
    said, "There are a lot of law schools in NY."

    Try to get a pilot's license in Australia when you have a US ATP and
    you're only in the country on business for three weeks. But that's
    another story.

    Dan
    5J
    On 8/21/22 07:36, Eric Greenwell wrote:
    On 8/21/2022 1:45 AM, krasw wrote:
    On Friday, 19 August 2022 at 13:56:54 UTC+1, [email protected] wrote:

    The law suit is a way for a wrong to be corrected.

    Walt Connelly

    I love the idea hear that some poor guy owning hangar is guilty of
    severe storm blowing hangar door away, and some expensive layer is
    needed to correct this "wrong". Let's not pretend that this makes any
    sense in any country other than US.

    Lots of assumptions here: we don't know if the hangar owner, or the
    hangar user (may not be the same person) took adequate precautions, or
    if there was liability insurance that could/should cover damage to
    others in a case like this, or that it's going to take an "expensive" lawyer to get restitution.

    I agree with Walt: the USA is definitely not the worst. Here's an
    anecdote from 28 years ago: Tug Wilson, British airline pilot and motorglider pilot, had lived in many countries around the world while flying for the airlines. He said the US had the best bureaucracies of
    any of those countries he'd lived in, from local officials, state officials, post office, even the FAA, and the legal system was the
    easiest to deal with. Government and legal corruption was the lowest,
    and he compared it to Spain (where he was living at the time), saying
    you needed a lawyer to get many things done that you could do with a
    phone call to city hall in the US, and sometimes needed to hire a lawyer
    to sue the first lawyer.

    I've heard Spain has significantly improved, but I believe what Tug said
    is still true: "If you don't like US bureaucracies, you're going to hate them everywhere else".


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