I jus finished reading the August edition of Soaring and came across page 21 which titles an article , "How Low Can You Start That Motor"? Some of the highlights of the article explain the unreliability of the motorglider, which is not news to thispurist, even the manufacturer sees the motorglider as a platform that should be treated as a PURE glider. The point made is that the motorglider is not a Toyota or Honda or Chevy, so don't think that the inferior machine will get you out of a bind at the
Stemme claims 50:1 glide angle.� Should I deploy the engine, my glide ratio, in still air, MAY
drop to 49:1 or thereabouts.� And the Rotax 914 is as reliable as a Toyota.� ...Except for that
damned turbo waste gate, but I wouldn't need the turbo for a self retrieve.
But then, again, Whereas I COULD land it in a field, I'd be stuck since I have no trailer.
Dan
5J
On 8/13/22 16:07, [email protected] wrote:
I jus finished reading the August edition of Soaring and came across page 21 which titles an
article , "How Low Can You Start That Motor"? Some of the highlights of the article explain
the unreliability of the motorglider, which is not news to this purist, even the manufacturer
sees the motorglider as a platform that should be treated as a PURE glider. The point made is
that the motorglider is not a Toyota or Honda or Chevy, so don't think that the inferior
machine will get you out of a bind at the snap of finger. That 13 to 1 is a fine example of
the drag of that windmill, even a 2-33 is better. Yes, "Have� A Plan" as the author
suggested. I don't have to worry about that, I am a PURIST, no need for a safety cushion, my
skills have not deteriorated that much. Old Bob, The Purist
Dan Marotta wrote on 8/13/2022 3:53 PM:Eric, once again you missed the facts, I have not always landed back at X52. Now about those unreliable motorgliders, I really enjoyed reading that article in Soaring. Detailing the unreliability of these gliders is interesting, especially the section , "
Stemme claims 50:1 glide angle. Should I deploy the engine, my glide ratio, in still air, MAY
drop to 49:1 or thereabouts. And the Rotax 914 is as reliable as a Toyota. ...Except for that
damned turbo waste gate, but I wouldn't need the turbo for a self retrieve.
But then, again, Whereas I COULD land it in a field, I'd be stuck since I have no trailer.
Dan
5J
On 8/13/22 16:07, [email protected] wrote:You missed the point, Bob, which was to be ready to be a "pure" sailplane whenever you decide
I jus finished reading the August edition of Soaring and came across page 21 which titles an
article , "How Low Can You Start That Motor"? Some of the highlights of the article explain
the unreliability of the motorglider, which is not news to this purist, even the manufacturer
sees the motorglider as a platform that should be treated as a PURE glider. The point made is
that the motorglider is not a Toyota or Honda or Chevy, so don't think that the inferior
machine will get you out of a bind at the snap of finger. That 13 to 1 is a fine example of
the drag of that windmill, even a 2-33 is better. Yes, "Have A Plan" as the author
suggested. I don't have to worry about that, I am a PURIST, no need for a safety cushion, my
skills have not deteriorated that much. Old Bob, The Purist
to start the engine. And only the clueless or thoughtless claim a "pure" sailplane doesn't need
a "safety cushion". Fact is, glider pilots are taught from the beginning of their training to
have cushions (generally altitude). You know that, and since you always make it back to
Hibiscus (well, at least the last 5 years), you've demonstrated you use cushion(s).
Oh, that 13:1 applies to just a few motorgliders with mast up, engine stopped. It certainly
doesn't apply to most Schleicher gliders (20:1 for my 26E), FES gliders, or jet sustainers.
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
... Oh, that 13:1 applies to just a few motorgliders with mast up, engine stopped. It certainly
doesn't apply to most Schleicher gliders (20:1 for my 26E), FES gliders, or jet sustainers.
On Saturday, August 13, 2022 at 7:19:16 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:"Motor Glider Failures". I have witnessed two failures of motorgliders, both blew up their engines on takeoff, fortunately both had gained enough altitude to return to the strip. Old Bob, The Purist.
Dan Marotta wrote on 8/13/2022 3:53 PM:Eric, once again you missed the facts, I have not always landed back at X52. Now about those unreliable motorgliders, I really enjoyed reading that article in Soaring. Detailing the unreliability of these gliders is interesting, especially the section ,
Stemme claims 50:1 glide angle. Should I deploy the engine, my glide ratio, in still air, MAYYou missed the point, Bob, which was to be ready to be a "pure" sailplane whenever you decide
drop to 49:1 or thereabouts. And the Rotax 914 is as reliable as a Toyota. ...Except for that
damned turbo waste gate, but I wouldn't need the turbo for a self retrieve. >>>
But then, again, Whereas I COULD land it in a field, I'd be stuck since I have no trailer.
Dan
5J
On 8/13/22 16:07, [email protected] wrote:
I jus finished reading the August edition of Soaring and came across page 21 which titles an
article , "How Low Can You Start That Motor"? Some of the highlights of the article explain
the unreliability of the motorglider, which is not news to this purist, even the manufacturer
sees the motorglider as a platform that should be treated as a PURE glider. The point made is
that the motorglider is not a Toyota or Honda or Chevy, so don't think that the inferior
machine will get you out of a bind at the snap of finger. That 13 to 1 is a fine example of
the drag of that windmill, even a 2-33 is better. Yes, "Have A Plan" as the author
suggested. I don't have to worry about that, I am a PURIST, no need for a safety cushion, my
skills have not deteriorated that much. Old Bob, The Purist
to start the engine. And only the clueless or thoughtless claim a "pure" sailplane doesn't need
a "safety cushion". Fact is, glider pilots are taught from the beginning of their training to
have cushions (generally altitude). You know that, and since you always make it back to
Hibiscus (well, at least the last 5 years), you've demonstrated you use cushion(s).
Oh, that 13:1 applies to just a few motorgliders with mast up, engine stopped. It certainly
doesn't apply to most Schleicher gliders (20:1 for my 26E), FES gliders, or jet sustainers.
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
On Saturday, August 13, 2022 at 7:19:16 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
... Oh, that 13:1 applies to just a few motorgliders with mast up, engine stopped. It certainly
doesn't apply to most Schleicher gliders (20:1 for my 26E), FES gliders, or jet sustainers.
Eric, for the umpteenth time, it is not "just a few" motorgliders that have high sink rates with engine out and stopped. You are doing nobody any favors continuing to think and write that all gliders are like the ASH-26. Really now...
Dave Nadler wrote on 8/14/2022 6:41 AM:Eric, my comments were far from myopic, actually this is one of the first articles that actually portray the motorglider for what it actually is. I do not know the author, could care less, but the facts were right on target, I felt that it was one of the
On Saturday, August 13, 2022 at 7:19:16 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
... Oh, that 13:1 applies to just a few motorgliders with mast up, engine stopped. It certainly
doesn't apply to most Schleicher gliders (20:1 for my 26E), FES gliders, or jet sustainers.
Eric, for the umpteenth time, it is not "just a few" motorgliders that have high sink rates with engine out and stopped. You are doing nobody any favors continuing to think and write that all gliders are like the ASH-26. Really now...
I was responding to Bob's myopia, which causes him to see only problems, not offering a survey
of all motorgliders, and I specifically said FES, jet gliders, and Stemmes do not suffer the
significant loss of glide ratio that the mast style loses. There are a lot of these mastless
gliders. And, there are 500+ mast style Schleichers that don't drop to 13:1. I don't know the
percentage of 13:1 mast-up gliders, but I believe they are the minority.
But, it's really not important, because it's not a surprise that some gliders are like that:
the pilot should know what the glider can do before he even sits in the glider, and fly
accordingly. Don't want 13:1? Don't buy one, as there are plenty of choices that are better
than that.
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
On Sunday, August 14, 2022 at 11:17:10 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:the better and more realistic accounts of the reliability of the motorglider. I wish there were more articles like this kind in Soaring, it did not take a stand either for or against, rather stated the facts. Old Bob, The Purist
Dave Nadler wrote on 8/14/2022 6:41 AM:Eric, my comments were far from myopic, actually this is one of the first articles that actually portray the motorglider for what it actually is. I do not know the author, could care less, but the facts were right on target, I felt that it was one of
On Saturday, August 13, 2022 at 7:19:16 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote: >>>> ... Oh, that 13:1 applies to just a few motorgliders with mast up, engine stopped. It certainlyI was responding to Bob's myopia, which causes him to see only problems, not offering a survey
doesn't apply to most Schleicher gliders (20:1 for my 26E), FES gliders, or jet sustainers.
Eric, for the umpteenth time, it is not "just a few" motorgliders that have high sink rates with engine out and stopped. You are doing nobody any favors continuing to think and write that all gliders are like the ASH-26. Really now...
of all motorgliders, and I specifically said FES, jet gliders, and Stemmes do not suffer the
significant loss of glide ratio that the mast style loses. There are a lot of these mastless
gliders. And, there are 500+ mast style Schleichers that don't drop to 13:1. I don't know the
percentage of 13:1 mast-up gliders, but I believe they are the minority.
But, it's really not important, because it's not a surprise that some gliders are like that:
the pilot should know what the glider can do before he even sits in the glider, and fly
accordingly. Don't want 13:1? Don't buy one, as there are plenty of choices that are better
than that.
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
[email protected] wrote on 8/14/2022 1:10 PM:the better and more realistic accounts of the reliability of the motorglider. I wish there were more articles like this kind in Soaring, it did not take a stand either for or against, rather stated the facts. Old Bob, The Purist
On Sunday, August 14, 2022 at 11:17:10 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Dave Nadler wrote on 8/14/2022 6:41 AM:Eric, my comments were far from myopic, actually this is one of the first articles that actually portray the motorglider for what it actually is. I do not know the author, could care less, but the facts were right on target, I felt that it was one of
On Saturday, August 13, 2022 at 7:19:16 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote: >>>> ... Oh, that 13:1 applies to just a few motorgliders with mast up, engine stopped. It certainlyI was responding to Bob's myopia, which causes him to see only problems, not offering a survey
doesn't apply to most Schleicher gliders (20:1 for my 26E), FES gliders, or jet sustainers.
Eric, for the umpteenth time, it is not "just a few" motorgliders that have high sink rates with engine out and stopped. You are doing nobody any favors continuing to think and write that all gliders are like the ASH-26. Really now...
of all motorgliders, and I specifically said FES, jet gliders, and Stemmes do not suffer the
significant loss of glide ratio that the mast style loses. There are a lot of these mastless
gliders. And, there are 500+ mast style Schleichers that don't drop to 13:1. I don't know the
percentage of 13:1 mast-up gliders, but I believe they are the minority. >>
But, it's really not important, because it's not a surprise that some gliders are like that:
the pilot should know what the glider can do before he even sits in the glider, and fly
accordingly. Don't want 13:1? Don't buy one, as there are plenty of choices that are better
than that.
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
Until the August Soaring is available online, I can't quote any specifics from the article. In
the meantime, ponder this: "unreliable" is a judgement, not a fact.
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
On Sunday, August 14, 2022 at 1:41:06 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:of the better and more realistic accounts of the reliability of the motorglider. I wish there were more articles like this kind in Soaring, it did not take a stand either for or against, rather stated the facts. Old Bob, The Purist
[email protected] wrote on 8/14/2022 1:10 PM:
On Sunday, August 14, 2022 at 11:17:10 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Dave Nadler wrote on 8/14/2022 6:41 AM:Eric, my comments were far from myopic, actually this is one of the first articles that actually portray the motorglider for what it actually is. I do not know the author, could care less, but the facts were right on target, I felt that it was one
On Saturday, August 13, 2022 at 7:19:16 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:I was responding to Bob's myopia, which causes him to see only problems, not offering a survey
... Oh, that 13:1 applies to just a few motorgliders with mast up, engine stopped. It certainly
doesn't apply to most Schleicher gliders (20:1 for my 26E), FES gliders, or jet sustainers.
Eric, for the umpteenth time, it is not "just a few" motorgliders that have high sink rates with engine out and stopped. You are doing nobody any favors continuing to think and write that all gliders are like the ASH-26. Really now...
of all motorgliders, and I specifically said FES, jet gliders, and Stemmes do not suffer the
significant loss of glide ratio that the mast style loses. There are a lot of these mastless
gliders. And, there are 500+ mast style Schleichers that don't drop to 13:1. I don't know the
percentage of 13:1 mast-up gliders, but I believe they are the minority.
But, it's really not important, because it's not a surprise that some gliders are like that:
the pilot should know what the glider can do before he even sits in the glider, and fly
accordingly. Don't want 13:1? Don't buy one, as there are plenty of choices that are better
than that.
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
failure on take off). But many of the things he discusses are things all glider pilots should be focused on, regardless if it's a pure or a motor glider. Everyone should know their own limitations, understand the glider and its capabilities andUntil the August Soaring is available online, I can't quote any specifics from the article. InAfter reading the article, the author seems rather skeptical of motor gliders, to put it nicely. I also wonder if he's a powered pilot because many of the things he discusses are normal things powered pilots think about when taking off (such as engine
the meantime, ponder this: "unreliable" is a judgement, not a fact.
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
He doesn't share any actual statistics and acts as if you should consider yourself lucky if the motor works. His ideas on "have a plan" are basic to any flight, motor or not. I'm not convinced by his article that motor gliders are somehow more unsafethan pure gliders. It's just another method of getting into the air. A motor quitting at 100' on takeoff can happen just like a rope break can happen. We go over these situations, we practice them, and we prepare for them.
After reading the [August, 2022, "Soaring"] article, the author
seems rather skeptical of motor gliders, to put it nicely. I also
wonder if he's a powered pilot because many of the things he
discusses are normal things powered pilots think about when taking
off (such as engine failure on take off). But many of the things he
discusses are things all glider pilots should be focused on,
regardless if it's a pure or a motor glider. Everyone should know
their own limitations, understand the glider and its capabilities and limitations, and any local/club rules you have to follow. Decision
altitudes are common (at X feet no more searching for thermals, it's
time to land).
He doesn't share any actual statistics and acts as if you should
consider yourself lucky if the motor works. His ideas on "have a
plan" are basic to any flight, motor or not. I'm not convinced by his
article that motor gliders are somehow more unsafe than pure gliders.
It's just another method of getting into the air. A motor quitting at
100' on takeoff can happen just like a rope break can happen. We go
over these situations, we practice them, and we prepare for them.
The actual operating aspects associated with
auxiliary-powered-sailplanes as shared in several decades of "Soaring"
mag, persopnal observation, and many a bull session, show pretty
convincingly (to me) that they're a whole lot more demanding of Joe
Pilot than pure sailplanes. Early-on there were a rash of crashes
associated with (in my view) JGP "waiting too long and until too low and presuming engine-extension/start-up success" and coming up short of the
"out" field or hitting the ground vertically (stall/spin). Eventually, most(?) auxiliary-powered-sailplane pilots came to understand the "Of *course* it'll start and Murphy isn't real, anyway!" attitude was
seriously off-target/misguided/wrongheaded thinking. And yet, Joe Human Glider Pilot continues to crunch his aerial conveyances at an
annually-steady (and depressing) rate. (cf: August's article.)
Yesterday, at Moriarty, there was a ground loop incident which left aSimple answer Dan, either start the motor or bust your ass, what did you do? Old Bob, The purist
Bird Dog damaged in the dirt off the side of the main runway. This
occurred just before I started my engine and I had a front row seat.
I decided to use the north/south runway for takeoff, a benefit of a self launcher, and, as I was climbing out, heard an announcement that the east/west runway was closed until further notice.
On return from my flight I had excess altitude and so offered any
gliders in the vicinity to land ahead of me while I loitered down to
land. Two gliders landed in front of me; a Carat (motor glider) and a
Duo Discus.
When the Duo called final, I extended my landing gear, flaps, and dive
brakes to lose the last bit of altitude before entering the pattern. Unfortunately, the Duo landed in the first thousand feet or so of the
runway and stopped in the middle.
I was in a bind now with both runways closed and down to pattern
altitude. I mentioned on the radio that I could easily land opposite direction on the main runway. The wrecked aircraft was at least 6,000'
from the approach end of the east runway, which the winds favored anyway.
The club's ground ops guy for the day came up on the radio and, in a
very nasty voice said, "That runway is closed". I should simply have
declared an emergency and landed on the suitable area. Instead, I said something along the lines of it would be nice if they'd get that glider blocking the runway clear. Next the ground guy said, "Start your engine
and go around!" I wonder where he thinks he got such authority!
I started my engine (really should have declared the emergency) and
cleaned up the aircraft. With cold oil, I could not apply any more
power that was required to fly level at best L/D. This is something
that nobody has addressed in the use of motor glider engines.
I've been told by the operators of 2 cycle engines that no warm up is required. Not so for the 4 cycle engine in the Stemme. It is for that
reason that I plan to start my engine, if necessary, a minimum of 2,000'
AGL. Pattern altitude is not a good idea as it could cause oil
starvation due to its viscosity at low temperatures.
They eventually pulled the glider clear and I landed safely. They
cleared the wreck as I was taxiing in. I should have taken a couple
more thermals and it would have been a day just like any other.
Dan
5J
On 8/14/22 17:23, Bob W. wrote:
The actual operating aspects associated with
auxiliary-powered-sailplanes as shared in several decades of "Soaring"
mag, persopnal observation, and many a bull session, show pretty convincingly (to me) that they're a whole lot more demanding of Joe
Pilot than pure sailplanes. Early-on there were a rash of crashes associated with (in my view) JGP "waiting too long and until too low and presuming engine-extension/start-up success" and coming up short of the "out" field or hitting the ground vertically (stall/spin). Eventually, most(?) auxiliary-powered-sailplane pilots came to understand the "Of *course* it'll start and Murphy isn't real, anyway!" attitude was
seriously off-target/misguided/wrongheaded thinking. And yet, Joe Human Glider Pilot continues to crunch his aerial conveyances at an annually-steady (and depressing) rate. (cf: August's article.)
... the author seems rather skeptical of motor gliders, to put it nicely.
I also wonder if he's a powered pilot because many of the things he discusses are normal things powered pilots think about when taking off (such as engine failure on take off).
He doesn't share any actual statistics...
...acts as if you should consider yourself lucky if the motor works.
On Monday, August 15, 2022 at 3:44:56 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
Yesterday, at Moriarty, there was a ground loop incident which left aSimple answer Dan, either start the motor or bust your ass, what did you do? Old Bob, The purist
Bird Dog damaged in the dirt off the side of the main runway. This
occurred just before I started my engine and I had a front row seat.
I decided to use the north/south runway for takeoff, a benefit of a self
launcher, and, as I was climbing out, heard an announcement that the
east/west runway was closed until further notice.
On return from my flight I had excess altitude and so offered any
gliders in the vicinity to land ahead of me while I loitered down to
land. Two gliders landed in front of me; a Carat (motor glider) and a
Duo Discus.
When the Duo called final, I extended my landing gear, flaps, and dive
brakes to lose the last bit of altitude before entering the pattern.
Unfortunately, the Duo landed in the first thousand feet or so of the
runway and stopped in the middle.
I was in a bind now with both runways closed and down to pattern
altitude. I mentioned on the radio that I could easily land opposite
direction on the main runway. The wrecked aircraft was at least 6,000'
from the approach end of the east runway, which the winds favored anyway.
The club's ground ops guy for the day came up on the radio and, in a
very nasty voice said, "That runway is closed". I should simply have
declared an emergency and landed on the suitable area. Instead, I said
something along the lines of it would be nice if they'd get that glider
blocking the runway clear. Next the ground guy said, "Start your engine
and go around!" I wonder where he thinks he got such authority!
I started my engine (really should have declared the emergency) and
cleaned up the aircraft. With cold oil, I could not apply any more
power that was required to fly level at best L/D. This is something
that nobody has addressed in the use of motor glider engines.
I've been told by the operators of 2 cycle engines that no warm up is
required. Not so for the 4 cycle engine in the Stemme. It is for that
reason that I plan to start my engine, if necessary, a minimum of 2,000'
AGL. Pattern altitude is not a good idea as it could cause oil
starvation due to its viscosity at low temperatures.
They eventually pulled the glider clear and I landed safely. They
cleared the wreck as I was taxiing in. I should have taken a couple
more thermals and it would have been a day just like any other.
Dan
5J
On 8/14/22 17:23, Bob W. wrote:
The actual operating aspects associated with
auxiliary-powered-sailplanes as shared in several decades of "Soaring"
mag, persopnal observation, and many a bull session, show pretty
convincingly (to me) that they're a whole lot more demanding of Joe
Pilot than pure sailplanes. Early-on there were a rash of crashes
associated with (in my view) JGP "waiting too long and until too low and >>> presuming engine-extension/start-up success" and coming up short of the
"out" field or hitting the ground vertically (stall/spin). Eventually,
most(?) auxiliary-powered-sailplane pilots came to understand the "Of
*course* it'll start and Murphy isn't real, anyway!" attitude was
seriously off-target/misguided/wrongheaded thinking. And yet, Joe Human
Glider Pilot continues to crunch his aerial conveyances at an
annually-steady (and depressing) rate. (cf: August's article.)
Dan….you got bullied out of your job as PIC.
H
You're right and that bothers me. It won't happen again.
[email protected] wrote on 8/14/2022 1:10 PM:the better and more realistic accounts of the reliability of the motorglider. I wish there were more articles like this kind in Soaring, it did not take a stand either for or against, rather stated the facts. Old Bob, The Purist
On Sunday, August 14, 2022 at 11:17:10 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Dave Nadler wrote on 8/14/2022 6:41 AM:Eric, my comments were far from myopic, actually this is one of the first articles that actually portray the motorglider for what it actually is. I do not know the author, could care less, but the facts were right on target, I felt that it was one of
On Saturday, August 13, 2022 at 7:19:16 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote: >>>> ... Oh, that 13:1 applies to just a few motorgliders with mast up, engine stopped. It certainlyI was responding to Bob's myopia, which causes him to see only problems, not offering a survey
doesn't apply to most Schleicher gliders (20:1 for my 26E), FES gliders, or jet sustainers.
Eric, for the umpteenth time, it is not "just a few" motorgliders that have high sink rates with engine out and stopped. You are doing nobody any favors continuing to think and write that all gliders are like the ASH-26. Really now...
of all motorgliders, and I specifically said FES, jet gliders, and Stemmes do not suffer the
significant loss of glide ratio that the mast style loses. There are a lot of these mastless
gliders. And, there are 500+ mast style Schleichers that don't drop to 13:1. I don't know the
percentage of 13:1 mast-up gliders, but I believe they are the minority. >>
But, it's really not important, because it's not a surprise that some gliders are like that:
the pilot should know what the glider can do before he even sits in the glider, and fly
accordingly. Don't want 13:1? Don't buy one, as there are plenty of choices that are better
than that.
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
Until the August Soaring is available online, I can't quote any specifics from the article. InEric, August 2022 is now online. Delayed through no fault of the SSA but the PDF was late this month. Delivery of the print edition has been a bit uneven also since maybe June. My July copy arrived 7/25, but my August arrived 8/7, yet I spoke with
the meantime, ponder this: "unreliable" is a judgement, not a fact.
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
On 8/14/22 15:44, Jon wrote:
<Snip...>
After reading the [August, 2022, "Soaring"] article, the author
seems rather skeptical of motor gliders, to put it nicely. I also
wonder if he's a powered pilot because many of the things he
discusses are normal things powered pilots think about when taking
off (such as engine failure on take off). But many of the things he discusses are things all glider pilots should be focused on,
regardless if it's a pure or a motor glider. Everyone should know
their own limitations, understand the glider and its capabilities and limitations, and any local/club rules you have to follow. Decision altitudes are common (at X feet no more searching for thermals, it's
time to land).
He doesn't share any actual statistics and acts as if you shouldYou touch upon in-flight aspects all pilots certainly *should* have in
consider yourself lucky if the motor works. His ideas on "have a
plan" are basic to any flight, motor or not. I'm not convinced by his article that motor gliders are somehow more unsafe than pure gliders.
It's just another method of getting into the air. A motor quitting at
100' on takeoff can happen just like a rope break can happen. We go
over these situations, we practice them, and we prepare for them.
mind - and have a pre-prepared plan for - before/during flight, e.g.: dealing with an engine issue on takeoff (of any sort, in any type of aircraft); personal limitations; etc.
And while all of us arguably would like more/better "hard statistics" quantifying actual frequencies of certain in-flight risks & problems, reality pretty much ensures that hope must remain "defined"
inferentially more than statistically. (I'll let those who wish to argue this point, argue away! For me, the prime issue isn't (uncertain) frequency-of-occurrence statistics but "black-and=white"
incident/accident *outcomes* if/when "something bad happens.")
My personal perspective/take of soaring's and "single-engine GA's"
overall accident histories-n-outcomes from ~1975 through the present is,
in body-count terms, there's a hefty chasm between what pilots "should
do" and what way too many of them actually *do* when faced with (say) engine-related-systems'-failure-to-operate-as-desired issues.
Being strictly glider-only rated (lacking a motorglider endorsement),
I've several "takeaways" from both an adult lifetime of paying serious attention to incident/accident-related "stuff" in soaring/GA, and, the recent "Soaring" mag article. YMWV, of course...
1) "Pure sailplanes" are arguably the simplest/safest aircraft in which
to be closely associated with some sort of engine (towplane/winch)
problem. No configuration issues to speak of. Lightest wingloadings. Joe Pilot "routinely primed" for off-field landings and the "proper state of mind" they generally positively reward. (And yet, annually, launch/engine-related crunches occur...)
2) Considering auxiliary-powered sailplanes, exposure-to,
consideration-of, and the August "Soaring" article, all make abundantly clear (to me, anyway) - and with the *possible*/arguable exception of "FES-type" motorgliders - that engine-system-issues associated with
grafting motors onto sailplanes considerably complicates EVERYthing:
system mechanics; operating mechanics; decision-making.
3) Wingloading aside, there's arguably little practical difference at
launch time between fixed-gear, fixed-pitch, single-engine powerplanes,
and auxiliary-powered sailplanes, insofar as Joe Pilot is concerned.
Similar decisions and actions required throughout every launch ("just"
the decision heights and touchdown speeds differ in the event of power-system-related issues).
The actual operating aspects associated with
auxiliary-powered-sailplanes as shared in several decades of "Soaring"
mag, persopnal observation, and many a bull session, show pretty convincingly (to me) that they're a whole lot more demanding of Joe
Pilot than pure sailplanes. Early-on there were a rash of crashes
associated with (in my view) JGP "waiting too long and until too low and presuming engine-extension/start-up success" and coming up short of the "out" field or hitting the ground vertically (stall/spin). Eventually, most(?) auxiliary-powered-sailplane pilots came to understand the "Of *course* it'll start and Murphy isn't real, anyway!" attitude was
seriously off-target/misguided/wrongheaded thinking. And yet, Joe Human Glider Pilot continues to crunch his aerial conveyances at an annually-steady (and depressing) rate. (cf: August's article.)
Do I have a panacea solution? Who seriously thinks he or she does? But
to minimize the potential issues and risks and actual complexities is
not - IMHO - part of any realistic worldview. Training is
necessary/good. So is skill. And good judgment. And (sometimes) good
luck. And the absence of bad luck.
Attitude matters as well, in my view - a *lot!* Early-on in my cadging
of power plane rides with friends and acquaintances, I concluded Yours
Truly was considerably more relaxed when flying with glider-also pilots, *especially* those with off-field-landing attitudes & experience. Savvy readers can likely guess why.
Bob W.
the better and more realistic accounts of the reliability of the motorglider. I wish there were more articles like this kind in Soaring, it did not take a stand either for or against, rather stated the facts. Old Bob, The PuristEric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)Eric, my comments were far from myopic, actually this is one of the first articles that actually portray the motorglider for what it actually is. I do not know the author, could care less, but the facts were right on target, I felt that it was one of
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
with someone today still looking for his August copy. The office says there've been no production nor printing delays any month. The USPS advised businesses last fall that first class business mail would slow going forward, but nothing was said aboutEric, August 2022 is now online. Delayed through no fault of the SSA but the PDF was late this month. Delivery of the print edition has been a bit uneven also since maybe June. My July copy arrived 7/25, but my August arrived 8/7, yet I spokeUntil the August Soaring is available online, I can't quote any specifics from the article. In
the meantime, ponder this: "unreliable" is a judgement, not a fact.
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
Frank Whiteley
I started my engine (really should have declared the emergency) and cleaned up the aircraft.
With cold oil, I could not apply any more power that was required to fly level at best L/D.
This is something that nobody has addressed in the use of motor glider engines.
I've been told by the operators of 2 cycle engines that no warm up is required.� Not so for the
4 cycle engine in the Stemme.� It is for that reason that I plan to start my engine, if
necessary, a minimum of 2,000' AGL.� Pattern altitude is not a good idea as it could cause oil
starvation due to its viscosity at low temperatures.
On Mon, 15 Aug 2022 15:38:37 -0600, Dan Marotta wrote:
You're right and that bothers me. It won't happen again.Seems to me that the Duo driver was, shall we say, rather less than a team player.
He must have heard your call and so knew you would be landing after him.
From a quick look at Moriarty with Google Earth its obvious that there was next to no possibility of him rolling clear of the N-S runway, but he
could have either stopped very short or landed fast, cleaned up after touchdown and rolled as far as possible. He should certainly have told you what he was going to do: as No 2 in the landing sequence he should have
had the time to decide what he was going to do and to let you know what it was.
The LAST thing he should have done was to stop where he did in the middle
of the runway without a word. After you'd made a point of letting him in first that was just plain rude.
Frank Whiteley wrote on 8/15/2022 6:07 PM:of the better and more realistic accounts of the reliability of the motorglider. I wish there were more articles like this kind in Soaring, it did not take a stand either for or against, rather stated the facts. Old Bob, The Purist
...
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)Eric, my comments were far from myopic, actually this is one of the first articles that actually portray the motorglider for what it actually is. I do not know the author, could care less, but the facts were right on target, I felt that it was one
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
someone today still looking for his August copy. The office says there've been no production nor printing delays any month. The USPS advised businesses last fall that first class business mail would slow going forward, but nothing was said about otherEric, August 2022 is now online. Delayed through no fault of the SSA but the PDF was late this month. Delivery of the print edition has been a bit uneven also since maybe June. My July copy arrived 7/25, but my August arrived 8/7, yet I spoke withUntil the August Soaring is available online, I can't quote any specifics from the article. In
the meantime, ponder this: "unreliable" is a judgement, not a fact.
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
Eric,Frank Whiteley
Just got it! The delay was frustrating, as so many were referencing Dave's article, and I
couldn't read it. It's puzzling the PDF isn't available weeks before the printed copy, as it
requires nothing physical for it to be generated.
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
On Tuesday, August 16, 2022 at 6:52:52 AM UTC-6, Eric Greenwell wrote:one of the better and more realistic accounts of the reliability of the motorglider. I wish there were more articles like this kind in Soaring, it did not take a stand either for or against, rather stated the facts. Old Bob, The Purist
Frank Whiteley wrote on 8/15/2022 6:07 PM:
...
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)Eric, my comments were far from myopic, actually this is one of the first articles that actually portray the motorglider for what it actually is. I do not know the author, could care less, but the facts were right on target, I felt that it was
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
someone today still looking for his August copy. The office says there've been no production nor printing delays any month. The USPS advised businesses last fall that first class business mail would slow going forward, but nothing was said about otherEric, August 2022 is now online. Delayed through no fault of the SSA but the PDF was late this month. Delivery of the print edition has been a bit uneven also since maybe June. My July copy arrived 7/25, but my August arrived 8/7, yet I spoke withUntil the August Soaring is available online, I can't quote any specifics from the article. In
the meantime, ponder this: "unreliable" is a judgement, not a fact.
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
not as trivial as you think. I don't know what the delay was in getting it to the SSA.Frank Whiteley
Just got it! The delay was frustrating, as so many were referencing Dave's article, and IEric,
couldn't read it. It's puzzling the PDF isn't available weeks before the printed copy, as it
requires nothing physical for it to be generated.
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
The PDF was not received until late last week and is modified before publication including indexing to make it word searchable and to add links and to improve some of the graphic elements. It is not fully up to our standards as received. The process is
Frank
On Tuesday, August 16, 2022 at 11:51:40 AM UTC-4, Frank Whiteley wrote:one of the better and more realistic accounts of the reliability of the motorglider. I wish there were more articles like this kind in Soaring, it did not take a stand either for or against, rather stated the facts. Old Bob, The Purist
On Tuesday, August 16, 2022 at 6:52:52 AM UTC-6, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Frank Whiteley wrote on 8/15/2022 6:07 PM:
...
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)Eric, my comments were far from myopic, actually this is one of the first articles that actually portray the motorglider for what it actually is. I do not know the author, could care less, but the facts were right on target, I felt that it was
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
with someone today still looking for his August copy. The office says there've been no production nor printing delays any month. The USPS advised businesses last fall that first class business mail would slow going forward, but nothing was said aboutEric, August 2022 is now online. Delayed through no fault of the SSA but the PDF was late this month. Delivery of the print edition has been a bit uneven also since maybe June. My July copy arrived 7/25, but my August arrived 8/7, yet I spokeUntil the August Soaring is available online, I can't quote any specifics from the article. In
the meantime, ponder this: "unreliable" is a judgement, not a fact. >> --
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
is not as trivial as you think. I don't know what the delay was in getting it to the SSA.Frank Whiteley
Just got it! The delay was frustrating, as so many were referencing Dave's article, and IEric,
couldn't read it. It's puzzling the PDF isn't available weeks before the printed copy, as it
requires nothing physical for it to be generated.
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
The PDF was not received until late last week and is modified before publication including indexing to make it word searchable and to add links and to improve some of the graphic elements. It is not fully up to our standards as received. The process
FrankAt the conclusion of an extended attempt by Transport Canada to fine me ( since dropped)
for "attempting to land on a runway occupied by a vehicle" I received a final admonition.
"As such you are counselled that CAR 602.19(10) fully applies to gliders such that any glider shall not conduct or attempt to conduct a take-off or landing until there is no risk of collision with any structure, person, vehicle, aircraft or vessel inthe take-off or landing path."
Apparently a glider is required to find lift and stay up until the obstruction is removed, or perhaps
go and find a field; do not risk breaking the law !
John F
Dan Marotta wrote on 8/13/2022 3:53 PM:Eric, let me take this opportunity to explain a few things about the difference between a purist and the motorglider mentality. Actually this is what the author was trying to convey IMHO, and a few of the MG guys cannot seem to get their arms around the
Stemme claims 50:1 glide angle. Should I deploy the engine, my glide ratio, in still air, MAY
drop to 49:1 or thereabouts. And the Rotax 914 is as reliable as a Toyota. ...Except for that
damned turbo waste gate, but I wouldn't need the turbo for a self retrieve.
But then, again, Whereas I COULD land it in a field, I'd be stuck since I have no trailer.
Dan
5J
On 8/13/22 16:07, [email protected] wrote:You missed the point, Bob, which was to be ready to be a "pure" sailplane whenever you decide
I jus finished reading the August edition of Soaring and came across page 21 which titles an
article , "How Low Can You Start That Motor"? Some of the highlights of the article explain
the unreliability of the motorglider, which is not news to this purist, even the manufacturer
sees the motorglider as a platform that should be treated as a PURE glider. The point made is
that the motorglider is not a Toyota or Honda or Chevy, so don't think that the inferior
machine will get you out of a bind at the snap of finger. That 13 to 1 is a fine example of
the drag of that windmill, even a 2-33 is better. Yes, "Have A Plan" as the author
suggested. I don't have to worry about that, I am a PURIST, no need for a safety cushion, my
skills have not deteriorated that much. Old Bob, The Purist
to start the engine. And only the clueless or thoughtless claim a "pure" sailplane doesn't need
a "safety cushion". Fact is, glider pilots are taught from the beginning of their training to
have cushions (generally altitude). You know that, and since you always make it back to
Hibiscus (well, at least the last 5 years), you've demonstrated you use cushion(s).
Oh, that 13:1 applies to just a few motorgliders with mast up, engine stopped. It certainly
doesn't apply to most Schleicher gliders (20:1 for my 26E), FES gliders, or jet sustainers.
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
On Saturday, August 13, 2022 at 7:19:16 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:the conclusion of the article. Purist do not have a safety cushion as you described, we have a DT, AKA decision termination of a flight. There is a big difference between a safety cushion and the termination conclusion. The safety cushion is the motor,
Dan Marotta wrote on 8/13/2022 3:53 PM:
Stemme claims 50:1 glide angle. Should I deploy the engine, my glide ratio, in still air, MAY
drop to 49:1 or thereabouts. And the Rotax 914 is as reliable as a Toyota. ...Except for that
damned turbo waste gate, but I wouldn't need the turbo for a self retrieve.
But then, again, Whereas I COULD land it in a field, I'd be stuck since I have no trailer.
Dan
5J
On 8/13/22 16:07, [email protected] wrote:You missed the point, Bob, which was to be ready to be a "pure" sailplane whenever you decide
I jus finished reading the August edition of Soaring and came across page 21 which titles an
article , "How Low Can You Start That Motor"? Some of the highlights of the article explain
the unreliability of the motorglider, which is not news to this purist, even the manufacturer
sees the motorglider as a platform that should be treated as a PURE glider. The point made is
that the motorglider is not a Toyota or Honda or Chevy, so don't think that the inferior
machine will get you out of a bind at the snap of finger. That 13 to 1 is a fine example of
the drag of that windmill, even a 2-33 is better. Yes, "Have A Plan" as the author
suggested. I don't have to worry about that, I am a PURIST, no need for a safety cushion, my
skills have not deteriorated that much. Old Bob, The Purist
to start the engine. And only the clueless or thoughtless claim a "pure" sailplane doesn't need
a "safety cushion". Fact is, glider pilots are taught from the beginning of their training to
have cushions (generally altitude). You know that, and since you always make it back to
Hibiscus (well, at least the last 5 years), you've demonstrated you use cushion(s).
Oh, that 13:1 applies to just a few motorgliders with mast up, engine stopped. It certainly
doesn't apply to most Schleicher gliders (20:1 for my 26E), FES gliders, or jet sustainers.
--Eric, let me take this opportunity to explain a few things about the difference between a purist and the motorglider mentality. Actually this is what the author was trying to convey IMHO, and a few of the MG guys cannot seem to get their arms around
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
On Tuesday, August 16, 2022 at 1:20:23 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:the conclusion of the article. Purist do not have a safety cushion as you described, we have a DT, AKA decision termination of a flight. There is a big difference between a safety cushion and the termination conclusion. The safety cushion is the motor,
On Saturday, August 13, 2022 at 7:19:16 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Dan Marotta wrote on 8/13/2022 3:53 PM:
Stemme claims 50:1 glide angle. Should I deploy the engine, my glide ratio, in still air, MAY
drop to 49:1 or thereabouts. And the Rotax 914 is as reliable as a Toyota. ...Except for that
damned turbo waste gate, but I wouldn't need the turbo for a self retrieve.
But then, again, Whereas I COULD land it in a field, I'd be stuck since I have no trailer.
Dan
5J
On 8/13/22 16:07, [email protected] wrote:You missed the point, Bob, which was to be ready to be a "pure" sailplane whenever you decide
I jus finished reading the August edition of Soaring and came across page 21 which titles an
article , "How Low Can You Start That Motor"? Some of the highlights of the article explain
the unreliability of the motorglider, which is not news to this purist, even the manufacturer
sees the motorglider as a platform that should be treated as a PURE glider. The point made is
that the motorglider is not a Toyota or Honda or Chevy, so don't think that the inferior
machine will get you out of a bind at the snap of finger. That 13 to 1 is a fine example of
the drag of that windmill, even a 2-33 is better. Yes, "Have A Plan" as the author
suggested. I don't have to worry about that, I am a PURIST, no need for a safety cushion, my
skills have not deteriorated that much. Old Bob, The Purist
to start the engine. And only the clueless or thoughtless claim a "pure" sailplane doesn't need
a "safety cushion". Fact is, glider pilots are taught from the beginning of their training to
have cushions (generally altitude). You know that, and since you always make it back to
Hibiscus (well, at least the last 5 years), you've demonstrated you use cushion(s).
Oh, that 13:1 applies to just a few motorgliders with mast up, engine stopped. It certainly
doesn't apply to most Schleicher gliders (20:1 for my 26E), FES gliders, or jet sustainers.
--Eric, let me take this opportunity to explain a few things about the difference between a purist and the motorglider mentality. Actually this is what the author was trying to convey IMHO, and a few of the MG guys cannot seem to get their arms around
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
Hey Bobby, you need to go back and read the article AGAIN. Dave NEVER regarded the motor as a "safety margin." If you think that you are sadly mistaken. This is a direct quote from the article:unsafe. There is a BIG difference between safety and convenience. The same applies to a pure glider.
"We are required by the certification criteria to plan for the possibility of the motor failing at any time and fly such that no matter how and when and where it fails, we can make a safe landing, because fail it will."
Us motorglider pilots have been telling you this time and TIME AGAIN, but you keep ignoring it out of, I assume, extreme ignorance.
More ignorance: the 13:1 figure applies to the DG400 and DG800A (not later models). I have measured the glide angle of the ASH26E at 20:1; this is a HUGE difference.
The example you gave is exactly the opposite of your "analysis." The pilot did not depend upon the engine to start, but had a safe landing option as Plan A. Granted, it would have been more convenient to land at an airport, but his choice was not
Dave over-emphasizes unreliability, practically stating that if the engine starts it is a surprise. I have thousands of hours of flight experience in motorgliders varying from the DG400 to the ASH31Mi. There is no doubt that engine reliability hasimproved markedly over the years. The 31Mi definitely has the reliability of your typical car.
Dave's bias is revealed in the statement:but this is part of the shut down/engine stowage procedure.
"Some older gliders have a dozen controls scattered about the cockpit and a fiddly start sequence, so demand lots of heads-down time."
I have NEVER seen a motorglider with a "dozen" engine controls. Dave conveniently doesn't cite said glider. The DG400, a pretty old motorglider, has:
1. Motor extension/retraction
2. Ignition
3. Choke
4. Throttle
5. Starter
That is five, NOT a dozen, and they are all conveniently located in one area of the cockpit (the starter pushbutton is even a part of the throttle control). When you shut down the engine there is a prop brake for aligning the prop prior to retraction,
On Tuesday, August 16, 2022 at 1:20:23 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:the conclusion of the article. Purist do not have a safety cushion as you described, we have a DT, AKA decision termination of a flight. There is a big difference between a safety cushion and the termination conclusion. The safety cushion is the motor,
On Saturday, August 13, 2022 at 7:19:16 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Dan Marotta wrote on 8/13/2022 3:53 PM:
Stemme claims 50:1 glide angle. Should I deploy the engine, my glide ratio, in still air, MAY
drop to 49:1 or thereabouts. And the Rotax 914 is as reliable as a Toyota. ...Except for that
damned turbo waste gate, but I wouldn't need the turbo for a self retrieve.
But then, again, Whereas I COULD land it in a field, I'd be stuck since I have no trailer.
Dan
5J
On 8/13/22 16:07, [email protected] wrote:You missed the point, Bob, which was to be ready to be a "pure" sailplane whenever you decide
I jus finished reading the August edition of Soaring and came across page 21 which titles an
article , "How Low Can You Start That Motor"? Some of the highlights of the article explain
the unreliability of the motorglider, which is not news to this purist, even the manufacturer
sees the motorglider as a platform that should be treated as a PURE glider. The point made is
that the motorglider is not a Toyota or Honda or Chevy, so don't think that the inferior
machine will get you out of a bind at the snap of finger. That 13 to 1 is a fine example of
the drag of that windmill, even a 2-33 is better. Yes, "Have A Plan" as the author
suggested. I don't have to worry about that, I am a PURIST, no need for a safety cushion, my
skills have not deteriorated that much. Old Bob, The Purist
to start the engine. And only the clueless or thoughtless claim a "pure" sailplane doesn't need
a "safety cushion". Fact is, glider pilots are taught from the beginning of their training to
have cushions (generally altitude). You know that, and since you always make it back to
Hibiscus (well, at least the last 5 years), you've demonstrated you use cushion(s).
Oh, that 13:1 applies to just a few motorgliders with mast up, engine stopped. It certainly
doesn't apply to most Schleicher gliders (20:1 for my 26E), FES gliders, or jet sustainers.
--Eric, let me take this opportunity to explain a few things about the difference between a purist and the motorglider mentality. Actually this is what the author was trying to convey IMHO, and a few of the MG guys cannot seem to get their arms around
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
Hey Bobby, you need to go back and read the article AGAIN. Dave NEVER regarded the motor as a "safety margin." If you think that you are sadly mistaken. This is a direct quote from the article:unsafe. There is a BIG difference between safety and convenience. The same applies to a pure glider.
"We are required by the certification criteria to plan for the possibility of the motor failing at any time and fly such that no matter how and when and where it fails, we can make a safe landing, because fail it will."
Us motorglider pilots have been telling you this time and TIME AGAIN, but you keep ignoring it out of, I assume, extreme ignorance.
More ignorance: the 13:1 figure applies to the DG400 and DG800A (not later models). I have measured the glide angle of the ASH26E at 20:1; this is a HUGE difference.
The example you gave is exactly the opposite of your "analysis." The pilot did not depend upon the engine to start, but had a safe landing option as Plan A. Granted, it would have been more convenient to land at an airport, but his choice was not
Dave over-emphasizes unreliability, practically stating that if the engine starts it is a surprise. I have thousands of hours of flight experience in motorgliders varying from the DG400 to the ASH31Mi. There is no doubt that engine reliability hasimproved markedly over the years. The 31Mi definitely has the reliability of your typical car.
Dave's bias is revealed in the statement:but this is part of the shut down/engine stowage procedure.
"Some older gliders have a dozen controls scattered about the cockpit and a fiddly start sequence, so demand lots of heads-down time."
I have NEVER seen a motorglider with a "dozen" engine controls. Dave conveniently doesn't cite said glider. The DG400, a pretty old motorglider, has:
1. Motor extension/retraction
2. Ignition
3. Choke
4. Throttle
5. Starter
That is five, NOT a dozen, and they are all conveniently located in one area of the cockpit (the starter pushbutton is even a part of the throttle control). When you shut down the engine there is a prop brake for aligning the prop prior to retraction,
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1Eric, let me take this opportunity to explain a few things about the difference between a purist and the motorglider mentality.
A good example of this that I witnessed was at the Seniors contest a few years back when a guy should have terminated at a nearby airport only to rely on the motor as a safety cushion and the motor, as it does more than you admit, did not start andthe pilot landed his motorglider in a field surrounded by cows and had to leave it there until the next day to get it out and back to the hovel of Seminole.
As the author so eloquently stated that even the manufacturer suggested treating the motorglider as a pure glider and employed decision termination at the airport that he had just left only to rely on that non reliable windmill.
Please re-read the article and you will probably come across with a different understanding as what the author was trying to convey, I think he was right on target! Old Bob, The Purist
On 8/16/2022 1:20 PM, [email protected] wrote:the pilot landed his motorglider in a field surrounded by cows and had to leave it there until the next day to get it out and back to the hovel of Seminole.
...
There is no "motorglider mentality", anymore than there is a "towed glider mentality",https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1Eric, let me take this opportunity to explain a few things about the difference between a purist and the motorglider mentality.
instead, there is a large variation in how pilots flying motorgliders use their motor and
how much they depend on it to start. Some are just as cautious with their soaring as you
are, and rarely, if ever, need to self-retrieve; others fly more aggressively (or explore
more), and use the motor frequently to self-retrieve.
A good example of this that I witnessed was at the Seniors contest a few years back when a guy should have terminated at a nearby airport only to rely on the motor as a safety cushion and the motor, as it does more than you admit, did not start and
Did you talk to that pilot about the decisions he made? I haven't, but I can offer a good
explanation for it without inventing a "safety cushion" concept. It's common in contests
for competitive glider pilots to pass up the opportunity to land at an airport if they
they think there is some chance they can improve their score for the day by pushing on,
and I think that is most likely what the pilot did. The fact that he had a safe field to
land suggests he wasn't relying on the engine for a "safety cushion".
This competitive trait is understood by the Rules Committee, and they try to entice pilots
to do the safer thing - land at an airport instead of a field - by offering an "airport
bonus" of 25 points for landing at an airport (or starting their motor within 1 mile of an
airport).
As the author so eloquently stated that even the manufacturer suggested treating the motorglider as a pure glider and employed decision termination at the airport that he had just left only to rely on that non reliable windmill.It's not "even the manufacturer", but ESPECIALLY the manufacturer that tells you the motor
may not work every time! Schleicher points this out in the manual for my glider, saying
that the motor may not provide the hoped-for climb, and not only due to mechanical
problems, but also pilot error.
Please re-read the article and you will probably come across with a different understanding as what the author was trying to convey, I think he was right on target! Old Bob, The PuristDave and I are on the same page, Bob. I already knew the stuff he discusses (I've been
flying motorgliders for 27 years), and can tell you it's an excellent article. You should
read my "Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" (see link below) to see that I say
similar things, though not as thoroughly as Dave did. It will also give you a clue to my
"motorglider mentality" that you so routinely misunderstand.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
On Tuesday, August 16, 2022 at 8:36:00 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:around the conclusion of the article. Purist do not have a safety cushion as you described, we have a DT, AKA decision termination of a flight. There is a big difference between a safety cushion and the termination conclusion. The safety cushion is the
On Tuesday, August 16, 2022 at 1:20:23 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Saturday, August 13, 2022 at 7:19:16 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Dan Marotta wrote on 8/13/2022 3:53 PM:
Stemme claims 50:1 glide angle. Should I deploy the engine, my glide ratio, in still air, MAY
drop to 49:1 or thereabouts. And the Rotax 914 is as reliable as a Toyota. ...Except for that
damned turbo waste gate, but I wouldn't need the turbo for a self retrieve.
But then, again, Whereas I COULD land it in a field, I'd be stuck since I have no trailer.
Dan
5J
On 8/13/22 16:07, [email protected] wrote:You missed the point, Bob, which was to be ready to be a "pure" sailplane whenever you decide
I jus finished reading the August edition of Soaring and came across page 21 which titles an
article , "How Low Can You Start That Motor"? Some of the highlights of the article explain
the unreliability of the motorglider, which is not news to this purist, even the manufacturer
sees the motorglider as a platform that should be treated as a PURE glider. The point made is
that the motorglider is not a Toyota or Honda or Chevy, so don't think that the inferior
machine will get you out of a bind at the snap of finger. That 13 to 1 is a fine example of
the drag of that windmill, even a 2-33 is better. Yes, "Have A Plan" as the author
suggested. I don't have to worry about that, I am a PURIST, no need for a safety cushion, my
skills have not deteriorated that much. Old Bob, The Purist
to start the engine. And only the clueless or thoughtless claim a "pure" sailplane doesn't need
a "safety cushion". Fact is, glider pilots are taught from the beginning of their training to
have cushions (generally altitude). You know that, and since you always make it back to
Hibiscus (well, at least the last 5 years), you've demonstrated you use cushion(s).
Oh, that 13:1 applies to just a few motorgliders with mast up, engine stopped. It certainly
doesn't apply to most Schleicher gliders (20:1 for my 26E), FES gliders, or jet sustainers.
--Eric, let me take this opportunity to explain a few things about the difference between a purist and the motorglider mentality. Actually this is what the author was trying to convey IMHO, and a few of the MG guys cannot seem to get their arms
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
unsafe. There is a BIG difference between safety and convenience. The same applies to a pure glider.Hey Bobby, you need to go back and read the article AGAIN. Dave NEVER regarded the motor as a "safety margin." If you think that you are sadly mistaken. This is a direct quote from the article:
"We are required by the certification criteria to plan for the possibility of the motor failing at any time and fly such that no matter how and when and where it fails, we can make a safe landing, because fail it will."
Us motorglider pilots have been telling you this time and TIME AGAIN, but you keep ignoring it out of, I assume, extreme ignorance.
More ignorance: the 13:1 figure applies to the DG400 and DG800A (not later models). I have measured the glide angle of the ASH26E at 20:1; this is a HUGE difference.
The example you gave is exactly the opposite of your "analysis." The pilot did not depend upon the engine to start, but had a safe landing option as Plan A. Granted, it would have been more convenient to land at an airport, but his choice was not
improved markedly over the years. The 31Mi definitely has the reliability of your typical car.Dave over-emphasizes unreliability, practically stating that if the engine starts it is a surprise. I have thousands of hours of flight experience in motorgliders varying from the DG400 to the ASH31Mi. There is no doubt that engine reliability has
but this is part of the shut down/engine stowage procedure.Dave's bias is revealed in the statement:
"Some older gliders have a dozen controls scattered about the cockpit and a fiddly start sequence, so demand lots of heads-down time."
I have NEVER seen a motorglider with a "dozen" engine controls. Dave conveniently doesn't cite said glider. The DG400, a pretty old motorglider, has:
1. Motor extension/retraction
2. Ignition
3. Choke
4. Throttle
5. Starter
That is five, NOT a dozen, and they are all conveniently located in one area of the cockpit (the starter pushbutton is even a part of the throttle control). When you shut down the engine there is a prop brake for aligning the prop prior to retraction,
Add in on many if not most:
Master switch for engine system
Associated breaker or fuse
Fuel safety cutoff valve.
Mechanical prop stop position.
Not a dozen, but closer
UH
On Tuesday, August 16, 2022 at 8:36:00 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:around the conclusion of the article. Purist do not have a safety cushion as you described, we have a DT, AKA decision termination of a flight. There is a big difference between a safety cushion and the termination conclusion. The safety cushion is the
On Tuesday, August 16, 2022 at 1:20:23 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Saturday, August 13, 2022 at 7:19:16 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Dan Marotta wrote on 8/13/2022 3:53 PM:
Stemme claims 50:1 glide angle. Should I deploy the engine, my glide ratio, in still air, MAY
drop to 49:1 or thereabouts. And the Rotax 914 is as reliable as a Toyota. ...Except for that
damned turbo waste gate, but I wouldn't need the turbo for a self retrieve.
But then, again, Whereas I COULD land it in a field, I'd be stuck since I have no trailer.
Dan
5J
On 8/13/22 16:07, [email protected] wrote:You missed the point, Bob, which was to be ready to be a "pure" sailplane whenever you decide
I jus finished reading the August edition of Soaring and came across page 21 which titles an
article , "How Low Can You Start That Motor"? Some of the highlights of the article explain
the unreliability of the motorglider, which is not news to this purist, even the manufacturer
sees the motorglider as a platform that should be treated as a PURE glider. The point made is
that the motorglider is not a Toyota or Honda or Chevy, so don't think that the inferior
machine will get you out of a bind at the snap of finger. That 13 to 1 is a fine example of
the drag of that windmill, even a 2-33 is better. Yes, "Have A Plan" as the author
suggested. I don't have to worry about that, I am a PURIST, no need for a safety cushion, my
skills have not deteriorated that much. Old Bob, The Purist
to start the engine. And only the clueless or thoughtless claim a "pure" sailplane doesn't need
a "safety cushion". Fact is, glider pilots are taught from the beginning of their training to
have cushions (generally altitude). You know that, and since you always make it back to
Hibiscus (well, at least the last 5 years), you've demonstrated you use cushion(s).
Oh, that 13:1 applies to just a few motorgliders with mast up, engine stopped. It certainly
doesn't apply to most Schleicher gliders (20:1 for my 26E), FES gliders, or jet sustainers.
--Eric, let me take this opportunity to explain a few things about the difference between a purist and the motorglider mentality. Actually this is what the author was trying to convey IMHO, and a few of the MG guys cannot seem to get their arms
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
unsafe. There is a BIG difference between safety and convenience. The same applies to a pure glider.Hey Bobby, you need to go back and read the article AGAIN. Dave NEVER regarded the motor as a "safety margin." If you think that you are sadly mistaken. This is a direct quote from the article:
"We are required by the certification criteria to plan for the possibility of the motor failing at any time and fly such that no matter how and when and where it fails, we can make a safe landing, because fail it will."
Us motorglider pilots have been telling you this time and TIME AGAIN, but you keep ignoring it out of, I assume, extreme ignorance.
More ignorance: the 13:1 figure applies to the DG400 and DG800A (not later models). I have measured the glide angle of the ASH26E at 20:1; this is a HUGE difference.
The example you gave is exactly the opposite of your "analysis." The pilot did not depend upon the engine to start, but had a safe landing option as Plan A. Granted, it would have been more convenient to land at an airport, but his choice was not
improved markedly over the years. The 31Mi definitely has the reliability of your typical car.Dave over-emphasizes unreliability, practically stating that if the engine starts it is a surprise. I have thousands of hours of flight experience in motorgliders varying from the DG400 to the ASH31Mi. There is no doubt that engine reliability has
but this is part of the shut down/engine stowage procedure.Dave's bias is revealed in the statement:
"Some older gliders have a dozen controls scattered about the cockpit and a fiddly start sequence, so demand lots of heads-down time."
I have NEVER seen a motorglider with a "dozen" engine controls. Dave conveniently doesn't cite said glider. The DG400, a pretty old motorglider, has:
1. Motor extension/retraction
2. Ignition
3. Choke
4. Throttle
5. Starter
That is five, NOT a dozen, and they are all conveniently located in one area of the cockpit (the starter pushbutton is even a part of the throttle control). When you shut down the engine there is a prop brake for aligning the prop prior to retraction,
Add in on many if not most:
Master switch for engine system
Associated breaker or fuse
Fuel safety cutoff valve.
Mechanical prop stop position.
Not a dozen, but closer
UH
On Tuesday, August 16, 2022 at 8:36:00 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:around the conclusion of the article. Purist do not have a safety cushion as you described, we have a DT, AKA decision termination of a flight. There is a big difference between a safety cushion and the termination conclusion. The safety cushion is the
On Tuesday, August 16, 2022 at 1:20:23 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Saturday, August 13, 2022 at 7:19:16 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Dan Marotta wrote on 8/13/2022 3:53 PM:
Stemme claims 50:1 glide angle. Should I deploy the engine, my glide ratio, in still air, MAY
drop to 49:1 or thereabouts. And the Rotax 914 is as reliable as a Toyota. ...Except for that
damned turbo waste gate, but I wouldn't need the turbo for a self retrieve.
But then, again, Whereas I COULD land it in a field, I'd be stuck since I have no trailer.
Dan
5J
On 8/13/22 16:07, [email protected] wrote:You missed the point, Bob, which was to be ready to be a "pure" sailplane whenever you decide
I jus finished reading the August edition of Soaring and came across page 21 which titles an
article , "How Low Can You Start That Motor"? Some of the highlights of the article explain
the unreliability of the motorglider, which is not news to this purist, even the manufacturer
sees the motorglider as a platform that should be treated as a PURE glider. The point made is
that the motorglider is not a Toyota or Honda or Chevy, so don't think that the inferior
machine will get you out of a bind at the snap of finger. That 13 to 1 is a fine example of
the drag of that windmill, even a 2-33 is better. Yes, "Have A Plan" as the author
suggested. I don't have to worry about that, I am a PURIST, no need for a safety cushion, my
skills have not deteriorated that much. Old Bob, The Purist
to start the engine. And only the clueless or thoughtless claim a "pure" sailplane doesn't need
a "safety cushion". Fact is, glider pilots are taught from the beginning of their training to
have cushions (generally altitude). You know that, and since you always make it back to
Hibiscus (well, at least the last 5 years), you've demonstrated you use cushion(s).
Oh, that 13:1 applies to just a few motorgliders with mast up, engine stopped. It certainly
doesn't apply to most Schleicher gliders (20:1 for my 26E), FES gliders, or jet sustainers.
--Eric, let me take this opportunity to explain a few things about the difference between a purist and the motorglider mentality. Actually this is what the author was trying to convey IMHO, and a few of the MG guys cannot seem to get their arms
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
unsafe. There is a BIG difference between safety and convenience. The same applies to a pure glider.Hey Bobby, you need to go back and read the article AGAIN. Dave NEVER regarded the motor as a "safety margin." If you think that you are sadly mistaken. This is a direct quote from the article:
"We are required by the certification criteria to plan for the possibility of the motor failing at any time and fly such that no matter how and when and where it fails, we can make a safe landing, because fail it will."
Us motorglider pilots have been telling you this time and TIME AGAIN, but you keep ignoring it out of, I assume, extreme ignorance.
More ignorance: the 13:1 figure applies to the DG400 and DG800A (not later models). I have measured the glide angle of the ASH26E at 20:1; this is a HUGE difference.
The example you gave is exactly the opposite of your "analysis." The pilot did not depend upon the engine to start, but had a safe landing option as Plan A. Granted, it would have been more convenient to land at an airport, but his choice was not
improved markedly over the years. The 31Mi definitely has the reliability of your typical car.Dave over-emphasizes unreliability, practically stating that if the engine starts it is a surprise. I have thousands of hours of flight experience in motorgliders varying from the DG400 to the ASH31Mi. There is no doubt that engine reliability has
but this is part of the shut down/engine stowage procedure.Dave's bias is revealed in the statement:
"Some older gliders have a dozen controls scattered about the cockpit and a fiddly start sequence, so demand lots of heads-down time."
I have NEVER seen a motorglider with a "dozen" engine controls. Dave conveniently doesn't cite said glider. The DG400, a pretty old motorglider, has:
1. Motor extension/retraction
2. Ignition
3. Choke
4. Throttle
5. Starter
That is five, NOT a dozen, and they are all conveniently located in one area of the cockpit (the starter pushbutton is even a part of the throttle control). When you shut down the engine there is a prop brake for aligning the prop prior to retraction,
Hey Dickhead, I said "Safety Cushion", not margin, what took you so long to respond?
On Tuesday, August 16, 2022 at 8:36:00 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:around the conclusion of the article. Purist do not have a safety cushion as you described, we have a DT, AKA decision termination of a flight. There is a big difference between a safety cushion and the termination conclusion. The safety cushion is the
On Tuesday, August 16, 2022 at 1:20:23 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Saturday, August 13, 2022 at 7:19:16 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Dan Marotta wrote on 8/13/2022 3:53 PM:
Stemme claims 50:1 glide angle. Should I deploy the engine, my glide ratio, in still air, MAY
drop to 49:1 or thereabouts. And the Rotax 914 is as reliable as a Toyota. ...Except for that
damned turbo waste gate, but I wouldn't need the turbo for a self retrieve.
But then, again, Whereas I COULD land it in a field, I'd be stuck since I have no trailer.
Dan
5J
On 8/13/22 16:07, [email protected] wrote:You missed the point, Bob, which was to be ready to be a "pure" sailplane whenever you decide
I jus finished reading the August edition of Soaring and came across page 21 which titles an
article , "How Low Can You Start That Motor"? Some of the highlights of the article explain
the unreliability of the motorglider, which is not news to this purist, even the manufacturer
sees the motorglider as a platform that should be treated as a PURE glider. The point made is
that the motorglider is not a Toyota or Honda or Chevy, so don't think that the inferior
machine will get you out of a bind at the snap of finger. That 13 to 1 is a fine example of
the drag of that windmill, even a 2-33 is better. Yes, "Have A Plan" as the author
suggested. I don't have to worry about that, I am a PURIST, no need for a safety cushion, my
skills have not deteriorated that much. Old Bob, The Purist
to start the engine. And only the clueless or thoughtless claim a "pure" sailplane doesn't need
a "safety cushion". Fact is, glider pilots are taught from the beginning of their training to
have cushions (generally altitude). You know that, and since you always make it back to
Hibiscus (well, at least the last 5 years), you've demonstrated you use cushion(s).
Oh, that 13:1 applies to just a few motorgliders with mast up, engine stopped. It certainly
doesn't apply to most Schleicher gliders (20:1 for my 26E), FES gliders, or jet sustainers.
--Eric, let me take this opportunity to explain a few things about the difference between a purist and the motorglider mentality. Actually this is what the author was trying to convey IMHO, and a few of the MG guys cannot seem to get their arms
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
unsafe. There is a BIG difference between safety and convenience. The same applies to a pure glider.Hey Bobby, you need to go back and read the article AGAIN. Dave NEVER regarded the motor as a "safety margin." If you think that you are sadly mistaken. This is a direct quote from the article:
"We are required by the certification criteria to plan for the possibility of the motor failing at any time and fly such that no matter how and when and where it fails, we can make a safe landing, because fail it will."
Us motorglider pilots have been telling you this time and TIME AGAIN, but you keep ignoring it out of, I assume, extreme ignorance.
More ignorance: the 13:1 figure applies to the DG400 and DG800A (not later models). I have measured the glide angle of the ASH26E at 20:1; this is a HUGE difference.
The example you gave is exactly the opposite of your "analysis." The pilot did not depend upon the engine to start, but had a safe landing option as Plan A. Granted, it would have been more convenient to land at an airport, but his choice was not
improved markedly over the years. The 31Mi definitely has the reliability of your typical car.Dave over-emphasizes unreliability, practically stating that if the engine starts it is a surprise. I have thousands of hours of flight experience in motorgliders varying from the DG400 to the ASH31Mi. There is no doubt that engine reliability has
but this is part of the shut down/engine stowage procedure.Dave's bias is revealed in the statement:
"Some older gliders have a dozen controls scattered about the cockpit and a fiddly start sequence, so demand lots of heads-down time."
I have NEVER seen a motorglider with a "dozen" engine controls. Dave conveniently doesn't cite said glider. The DG400, a pretty old motorglider, has:
1. Motor extension/retraction
2. Ignition
3. Choke
4. Throttle
5. Starter
That is five, NOT a dozen, and they are all conveniently located in one area of the cockpit (the starter pushbutton is even a part of the throttle control). When you shut down the engine there is a prop brake for aligning the prop prior to retraction,
Add in on many if not most:
Master switch for engine system
Associated breaker or fuse
Fuel safety cutoff valve.
Mechanical prop stop position.
Not a dozen, but closer
UH
On Wednesday, August 17, 2022 at 4:40:18 AM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:around the conclusion of the article. Purist do not have a safety cushion as you described, we have a DT, AKA decision termination of a flight. There is a big difference between a safety cushion and the termination conclusion. The safety cushion is the
On Tuesday, August 16, 2022 at 8:36:00 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
On Tuesday, August 16, 2022 at 1:20:23 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Saturday, August 13, 2022 at 7:19:16 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Dan Marotta wrote on 8/13/2022 3:53 PM:
Stemme claims 50:1 glide angle. Should I deploy the engine, my glide ratio, in still air, MAY
drop to 49:1 or thereabouts. And the Rotax 914 is as reliable as a Toyota. ...Except for that
damned turbo waste gate, but I wouldn't need the turbo for a self retrieve.
But then, again, Whereas I COULD land it in a field, I'd be stuck since I have no trailer.
Dan
5J
On 8/13/22 16:07, [email protected] wrote:You missed the point, Bob, which was to be ready to be a "pure" sailplane whenever you decide
I jus finished reading the August edition of Soaring and came across page 21 which titles an
article , "How Low Can You Start That Motor"? Some of the highlights of the article explain
the unreliability of the motorglider, which is not news to this purist, even the manufacturer
sees the motorglider as a platform that should be treated as a PURE glider. The point made is
that the motorglider is not a Toyota or Honda or Chevy, so don't think that the inferior
machine will get you out of a bind at the snap of finger. That 13 to 1 is a fine example of
the drag of that windmill, even a 2-33 is better. Yes, "Have A Plan" as the author
suggested. I don't have to worry about that, I am a PURIST, no need for a safety cushion, my
skills have not deteriorated that much. Old Bob, The Purist
to start the engine. And only the clueless or thoughtless claim a "pure" sailplane doesn't need
a "safety cushion". Fact is, glider pilots are taught from the beginning of their training to
have cushions (generally altitude). You know that, and since you always make it back to
Hibiscus (well, at least the last 5 years), you've demonstrated you use cushion(s).
Oh, that 13:1 applies to just a few motorgliders with mast up, engine stopped. It certainly
doesn't apply to most Schleicher gliders (20:1 for my 26E), FES gliders, or jet sustainers.
--Eric, let me take this opportunity to explain a few things about the difference between a purist and the motorglider mentality. Actually this is what the author was trying to convey IMHO, and a few of the MG guys cannot seem to get their arms
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
unsafe. There is a BIG difference between safety and convenience. The same applies to a pure glider.Hey Bobby, you need to go back and read the article AGAIN. Dave NEVER regarded the motor as a "safety margin." If you think that you are sadly mistaken. This is a direct quote from the article:
"We are required by the certification criteria to plan for the possibility of the motor failing at any time and fly such that no matter how and when and where it fails, we can make a safe landing, because fail it will."
Us motorglider pilots have been telling you this time and TIME AGAIN, but you keep ignoring it out of, I assume, extreme ignorance.
More ignorance: the 13:1 figure applies to the DG400 and DG800A (not later models). I have measured the glide angle of the ASH26E at 20:1; this is a HUGE difference.
The example you gave is exactly the opposite of your "analysis." The pilot did not depend upon the engine to start, but had a safe landing option as Plan A. Granted, it would have been more convenient to land at an airport, but his choice was not
improved markedly over the years. The 31Mi definitely has the reliability of your typical car.Dave over-emphasizes unreliability, practically stating that if the engine starts it is a surprise. I have thousands of hours of flight experience in motorgliders varying from the DG400 to the ASH31Mi. There is no doubt that engine reliability has
retraction, but this is part of the shut down/engine stowage procedure.Dave's bias is revealed in the statement:
"Some older gliders have a dozen controls scattered about the cockpit and a fiddly start sequence, so demand lots of heads-down time."
I have NEVER seen a motorglider with a "dozen" engine controls. Dave conveniently doesn't cite said glider. The DG400, a pretty old motorglider, has:
1. Motor extension/retraction
2. Ignition
3. Choke
4. Throttle
5. Starter
That is five, NOT a dozen, and they are all conveniently located in one area of the cockpit (the starter pushbutton is even a part of the throttle control). When you shut down the engine there is a prop brake for aligning the prop prior to
Hey Dickhead, I said "Safety Cushion", not margin, what took you so long to respond?Hey Bobby, it's the same thing. BTW, would you use that language around your grandkids?
retraction, but this is part of the shut down/engine stowage procedure.That is five, NOT a dozen, and they are all conveniently located in one area of the cockpit (the starter pushbutton is even a part of the throttle control). When you shut down the engine there is a prop brake for aligning the prop prior to
Hey Dickhead, I said "Safety Cushion", not margin, what took you so long to respond?Hey Bobby, it's the same thing. BTW, would you use that language around your grandkids?
Dh, if I had grandkids they would call you the same name. One of the guys up in Richland informed me that that was the name that the group gave to you. Old Bob, The Purist
On 8/18/2022 5:31 AM, [email protected] wrote:retraction, but this is part of the shut down/engine stowage procedure.
...
That is five, NOT a dozen, and they are all conveniently located in one area of the cockpit (the starter pushbutton is even a part of the throttle control). When you shut down the engine there is a prop brake for aligning the prop prior to
Hey Dickhead, I said "Safety Cushion", not margin, what took you so long to respond?Hey Bobby, it's the same thing. BTW, would you use that language around your grandkids?
Dh, if I had grandkids they would call you the same name. One of the guys up in Richland informed me that that was the name that the group gave to you. Old Bob, The PuristBut not this guy in Richland, WA, who does not think either of you is a DH. --
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
On Tuesday, August 16, 2022 at 8:36:00 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
I have NEVER seen a motorglider with a "dozen" engine controls.Add in on many if not most:
Dave conveniently doesn't cite said glider. The DG400, a pretty old motorglider, has:
1. Motor extension/retraction
2. Ignition
3. Choke
4. Throttle
5. Starter
6. Master switch for engine system
7. Associated breaker or fuse
8. Fuel safety cutoff valve.
9. Mechanical prop stop position.
Not a dozen, but closer
UH
On Wednesday, August 17, 2022 at 8:35:51 AM UTC-4, Hank Nixon wrote:
On Tuesday, August 16, 2022 at 8:36:00 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:Also, depending on model:
I have NEVER seen a motorglider with a "dozen" engine controls.Add in on many if not most:
Dave conveniently doesn't cite said glider. The DG400, a pretty old motorglider, has:
1. Motor extension/retraction
2. Ignition
3. Choke
4. Throttle
5. Starter
6. Master switch for engine system
7. Associated breaker or fuse
8. Fuel safety cutoff valve.
9. Mechanical prop stop position.
Not a dozen, but closer
UH
10. manual prop brake
11. manual primer
12. emergency override switch (or switches)
But I've probably forgotten some...
On Friday, August 19, 2022 at 8:00:31 AM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:Hey DH, you sure are making a lot of friends! Old Bob, The Purist
On Wednesday, August 17, 2022 at 8:35:51 AM UTC-4, Hank Nixon wrote:
On Tuesday, August 16, 2022 at 8:36:00 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:Also, depending on model:
I have NEVER seen a motorglider with a "dozen" engine controls.Add in on many if not most:
Dave conveniently doesn't cite said glider. The DG400, a pretty old motorglider, has:
1. Motor extension/retraction
2. Ignition
3. Choke
4. Throttle
5. Starter
6. Master switch for engine system
7. Associated breaker or fuse
8. Fuel safety cutoff valve.
9. Mechanical prop stop position.
Not a dozen, but closer
UH
10. manual prop brake
11. manual primer
12. emergency override switch (or switches)
But I've probably forgotten some...1. I don't use the prop brake to start the engine, only to stop the prop AFTER you have run the engine - maybe that's why it didn't start for you.
2. The DG400 doesn't have a manual primer - but if you wasted your time searching for it that would explain why you didn't get it started.
3. The DG400 has an emergency override motor extension switch if the regular switch doesn't work, but would ONLY be used in an emergency - maybe that is why you couldn't start it.
One REALLY shouldn't present themselves as an authority on a glider that they have not flown.
Tom
On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 12:09:17 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
On Friday, August 19, 2022 at 8:00:31 AM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Wednesday, August 17, 2022 at 8:35:51 AM UTC-4, Hank Nixon wrote:
On Tuesday, August 16, 2022 at 8:36:00 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:Also, depending on model:
I have NEVER seen a motorglider with a "dozen" engine controls.Add in on many if not most:
Dave conveniently doesn't cite said glider. The DG400, a pretty old motorglider, has:
1. Motor extension/retraction
2. Ignition
3. Choke
4. Throttle
5. Starter
6. Master switch for engine system
7. Associated breaker or fuse
8. Fuel safety cutoff valve.
9. Mechanical prop stop position.
Not a dozen, but closer
UH
10. manual prop brake
11. manual primer
12. emergency override switch (or switches)
But I've probably forgotten some...1. I don't use the prop brake to start the engine, only to stop the prop AFTER you have run the engine - maybe that's why it didn't start for you.
2. The DG400 doesn't have a manual primer - but if you wasted your time searching for it that would explain why you didn't get it started.
3. The DG400 has an emergency override motor extension switch if the regular switch doesn't work, but would ONLY be used in an emergency - maybe that is why you couldn't start it.
One REALLY shouldn't present themselves as an authority on a glider that they have not flown.
TomHey DH, you sure are making a lot of friends! Old Bob, The Purist
On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 5:28:18 AM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 12:09:17 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
On Friday, August 19, 2022 at 8:00:31 AM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Wednesday, August 17, 2022 at 8:35:51 AM UTC-4, Hank Nixon wrote:
On Tuesday, August 16, 2022 at 8:36:00 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:Also, depending on model:
I have NEVER seen a motorglider with a "dozen" engine controls. Dave conveniently doesn't cite said glider. The DG400, a pretty old motorglider, has:Add in on many if not most:
1. Motor extension/retraction
2. Ignition
3. Choke
4. Throttle
5. Starter
6. Master switch for engine system
7. Associated breaker or fuse
8. Fuel safety cutoff valve.
9. Mechanical prop stop position.
Not a dozen, but closer
UH
10. manual prop brake
11. manual primer
12. emergency override switch (or switches)
But I've probably forgotten some...1. I don't use the prop brake to start the engine, only to stop the prop AFTER you have run the engine - maybe that's why it didn't start for you.
2. The DG400 doesn't have a manual primer - but if you wasted your time searching for it that would explain why you didn't get it started.
3. The DG400 has an emergency override motor extension switch if the regular switch doesn't work, but would ONLY be used in an emergency - maybe that is why you couldn't start it.
One REALLY shouldn't present themselves as an authority on a glider that they have not flown.
Hey Bobby, how is the search for the new airstrip going?TomHey DH, you sure are making a lot of friends! Old Bob, The Purist
On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 6:55:44 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:looks like Bob has bested you in that area.
On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 5:28:18 AM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 12:09:17 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
On Friday, August 19, 2022 at 8:00:31 AM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Wednesday, August 17, 2022 at 8:35:51 AM UTC-4, Hank Nixon wrote:
On Tuesday, August 16, 2022 at 8:36:00 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:Also, depending on model:
I have NEVER seen a motorglider with a "dozen" engine controls. Dave conveniently doesn't cite said glider. The DG400, a pretty old motorglider, has:Add in on many if not most:
1. Motor extension/retraction
2. Ignition
3. Choke
4. Throttle
5. Starter
6. Master switch for engine system
7. Associated breaker or fuse
8. Fuel safety cutoff valve.
9. Mechanical prop stop position.
Not a dozen, but closer
UH
10. manual prop brake
11. manual primer
12. emergency override switch (or switches)
But I've probably forgotten some...1. I don't use the prop brake to start the engine, only to stop the prop AFTER you have run the engine - maybe that's why it didn't start for you.
2. The DG400 doesn't have a manual primer - but if you wasted your time searching for it that would explain why you didn't get it started.
3. The DG400 has an emergency override motor extension switch if the regular switch doesn't work, but would ONLY be used in an emergency - maybe that is why you couldn't start it.
One REALLY shouldn't present themselves as an authority on a glider that they have not flown.
Why do you find such pleasure in the troubles of a club that is potentially going to have to move? RAS sparring is one thing, but you seem to enjoy the fact that a fellow club might be losing their home. Do you care about promoting soaring at all? ItHey Bobby, how is the search for the new airstrip going?TomHey DH, you sure are making a lot of friends! Old Bob, The Purist
FWIW - There are a number of private airports in the area discussing the possibility of hosting the club. Plus, there is always the chance that the sale of New Hibiscus won't go through this time. Old ag strips can be a real estate environmentalhairball.
In the meantime, it's pretty low use the club's challenges as a personal attack on a fellow SSA member.
PA
On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 5:40:52 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:looks like Bob has bested you in that area.
On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 6:55:44 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 5:28:18 AM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 12:09:17 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
On Friday, August 19, 2022 at 8:00:31 AM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Wednesday, August 17, 2022 at 8:35:51 AM UTC-4, Hank Nixon wrote:
On Tuesday, August 16, 2022 at 8:36:00 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:Also, depending on model:
I have NEVER seen a motorglider with a "dozen" engine controls.Add in on many if not most:
Dave conveniently doesn't cite said glider. The DG400, a pretty old motorglider, has:
1. Motor extension/retraction
2. Ignition
3. Choke
4. Throttle
5. Starter
6. Master switch for engine system
7. Associated breaker or fuse
8. Fuel safety cutoff valve.
9. Mechanical prop stop position.
Not a dozen, but closer
UH
10. manual prop brake
11. manual primer
12. emergency override switch (or switches)
But I've probably forgotten some...1. I don't use the prop brake to start the engine, only to stop the prop AFTER you have run the engine - maybe that's why it didn't start for you.
2. The DG400 doesn't have a manual primer - but if you wasted your time searching for it that would explain why you didn't get it started.
3. The DG400 has an emergency override motor extension switch if the regular switch doesn't work, but would ONLY be used in an emergency - maybe that is why you couldn't start it.
One REALLY shouldn't present themselves as an authority on a glider that they have not flown.
Why do you find such pleasure in the troubles of a club that is potentially going to have to move? RAS sparring is one thing, but you seem to enjoy the fact that a fellow club might be losing their home. Do you care about promoting soaring at all? ItHey Bobby, how is the search for the new airstrip going?TomHey DH, you sure are making a lot of friends! Old Bob, The Purist
hairball.FWIW - There are a number of private airports in the area discussing the possibility of hosting the club. Plus, there is always the chance that the sale of New Hibiscus won't go through this time. Old ag strips can be a real estate environmental
DH, don't you ever get tired of getting your ass kicked? As Bluejet stated, we will be better and stronger than ever, even if X52 does sell we have plans for the future. Next week we will put 5 new glider pilots in the air, yes five more purist toIn the meantime, it's pretty low use the club's challenges as a personal attack on a fellow SSA member.
PAWho said I was finding pleasure in anything? I was making a simple inquiry, that's all.
Tom
On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 11:02:22 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:It looks like Bob has bested you in that area.
On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 5:40:52 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 6:55:44 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 5:28:18 AM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 12:09:17 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
On Friday, August 19, 2022 at 8:00:31 AM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Wednesday, August 17, 2022 at 8:35:51 AM UTC-4, Hank Nixon wrote:
On Tuesday, August 16, 2022 at 8:36:00 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:Also, depending on model:
I have NEVER seen a motorglider with a "dozen" engine controls.Add in on many if not most:
Dave conveniently doesn't cite said glider. The DG400, a pretty old motorglider, has:
1. Motor extension/retraction
2. Ignition
3. Choke
4. Throttle
5. Starter
6. Master switch for engine system
7. Associated breaker or fuse
8. Fuel safety cutoff valve.
9. Mechanical prop stop position.
Not a dozen, but closer
UH
10. manual prop brake
11. manual primer
12. emergency override switch (or switches)
But I've probably forgotten some...1. I don't use the prop brake to start the engine, only to stop the prop AFTER you have run the engine - maybe that's why it didn't start for you.
2. The DG400 doesn't have a manual primer - but if you wasted your time searching for it that would explain why you didn't get it started.
3. The DG400 has an emergency override motor extension switch if the regular switch doesn't work, but would ONLY be used in an emergency - maybe that is why you couldn't start it.
One REALLY shouldn't present themselves as an authority on a glider that they have not flown.
Why do you find such pleasure in the troubles of a club that is potentially going to have to move? RAS sparring is one thing, but you seem to enjoy the fact that a fellow club might be losing their home. Do you care about promoting soaring at all?Hey Bobby, how is the search for the new airstrip going?TomHey DH, you sure are making a lot of friends! Old Bob, The Purist
hairball.FWIW - There are a number of private airports in the area discussing the possibility of hosting the club. Plus, there is always the chance that the sale of New Hibiscus won't go through this time. Old ag strips can be a real estate environmental
contribute to this sport. Based on projections I will do more than 1200 tows myself in 2022. What have you done to support the soaring world? We have a great club and we are still growing, just as the kids that we are putting into the air, they mightIn the meantime, it's pretty low use the club's challenges as a personal attack on a fellow SSA member.
PAWho said I was finding pleasure in anything? I was making a simple inquiry, that's all.
TomDH, don't you ever get tired of getting your ass kicked? As Bluejet stated, we will be better and stronger than ever, even if X52 does sell we have plans for the future. Next week we will put 5 new glider pilots in the air, yes five more purist to
On Sunday, August 21, 2022 at 1:31:20 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:It looks like Bob has bested you in that area.
On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 11:02:22 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 5:40:52 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 6:55:44 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 5:28:18 AM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 12:09:17 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
On Friday, August 19, 2022 at 8:00:31 AM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Wednesday, August 17, 2022 at 8:35:51 AM UTC-4, Hank Nixon wrote:
On Tuesday, August 16, 2022 at 8:36:00 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:Also, depending on model:
I have NEVER seen a motorglider with a "dozen" engine controls.Add in on many if not most:
Dave conveniently doesn't cite said glider. The DG400, a pretty old motorglider, has:
1. Motor extension/retraction
2. Ignition
3. Choke
4. Throttle
5. Starter
6. Master switch for engine system
7. Associated breaker or fuse
8. Fuel safety cutoff valve.
9. Mechanical prop stop position.
Not a dozen, but closer
UH
10. manual prop brake
11. manual primer
12. emergency override switch (or switches)
But I've probably forgotten some...1. I don't use the prop brake to start the engine, only to stop the prop AFTER you have run the engine - maybe that's why it didn't start for you.
2. The DG400 doesn't have a manual primer - but if you wasted your time searching for it that would explain why you didn't get it started.
3. The DG400 has an emergency override motor extension switch if the regular switch doesn't work, but would ONLY be used in an emergency - maybe that is why you couldn't start it.
One REALLY shouldn't present themselves as an authority on a glider that they have not flown.
Why do you find such pleasure in the troubles of a club that is potentially going to have to move? RAS sparring is one thing, but you seem to enjoy the fact that a fellow club might be losing their home. Do you care about promoting soaring at all?Hey Bobby, how is the search for the new airstrip going?TomHey DH, you sure are making a lot of friends! Old Bob, The Purist
hairball.FWIW - There are a number of private airports in the area discussing the possibility of hosting the club. Plus, there is always the chance that the sale of New Hibiscus won't go through this time. Old ag strips can be a real estate environmental
contribute to this sport. Based on projections I will do more than 1200 tows myself in 2022. What have you done to support the soaring world? We have a great club and we are still growing, just as the kids that we are putting into the air, they mightIn the meantime, it's pretty low use the club's challenges as a personal attack on a fellow SSA member.
PAWho said I was finding pleasure in anything? I was making a simple inquiry, that's all.
TomDH, don't you ever get tired of getting your ass kicked? As Bluejet stated, we will be better and stronger than ever, even if X52 does sell we have plans for the future. Next week we will put 5 new glider pilots in the air, yes five more purist to
Hey Bobby, why are you so ANGRY?
On Monday, August 22, 2022 at 12:54:51 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote:all? It looks like Bob has bested you in that area.
On Sunday, August 21, 2022 at 1:31:20 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 11:02:22 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 5:40:52 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 6:55:44 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 5:28:18 AM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 12:09:17 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
On Friday, August 19, 2022 at 8:00:31 AM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Wednesday, August 17, 2022 at 8:35:51 AM UTC-4, Hank Nixon wrote:
On Tuesday, August 16, 2022 at 8:36:00 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:Also, depending on model:
I have NEVER seen a motorglider with a "dozen" engine controls.Add in on many if not most:
Dave conveniently doesn't cite said glider. The DG400, a pretty old motorglider, has:
1. Motor extension/retraction
2. Ignition
3. Choke
4. Throttle
5. Starter
6. Master switch for engine system
7. Associated breaker or fuse
8. Fuel safety cutoff valve.
9. Mechanical prop stop position.
Not a dozen, but closer
UH
10. manual prop brake
11. manual primer
12. emergency override switch (or switches)
But I've probably forgotten some...1. I don't use the prop brake to start the engine, only to stop the prop AFTER you have run the engine - maybe that's why it didn't start for you.
2. The DG400 doesn't have a manual primer - but if you wasted your time searching for it that would explain why you didn't get it started.
3. The DG400 has an emergency override motor extension switch if the regular switch doesn't work, but would ONLY be used in an emergency - maybe that is why you couldn't start it.
One REALLY shouldn't present themselves as an authority on a glider that they have not flown.
Why do you find such pleasure in the troubles of a club that is potentially going to have to move? RAS sparring is one thing, but you seem to enjoy the fact that a fellow club might be losing their home. Do you care about promoting soaring atHey Bobby, how is the search for the new airstrip going?TomHey DH, you sure are making a lot of friends! Old Bob, The Purist
environmental hairball.FWIW - There are a number of private airports in the area discussing the possibility of hosting the club. Plus, there is always the chance that the sale of New Hibiscus won't go through this time. Old ag strips can be a real estate
contribute to this sport. Based on projections I will do more than 1200 tows myself in 2022. What have you done to support the soaring world? We have a great club and we are still growing, just as the kids that we are putting into the air, they mightIn the meantime, it's pretty low use the club's challenges as a personal attack on a fellow SSA member.
PAWho said I was finding pleasure in anything? I was making a simple inquiry, that's all.
TomDH, don't you ever get tired of getting your ass kicked? As Bluejet stated, we will be better and stronger than ever, even if X52 does sell we have plans for the future. Next week we will put 5 new glider pilots in the air, yes five more purist to
Hey Bobby, why are you so ANGRY?Dream on DH! Old Bob, The Purist
On Monday, August 22, 2022 at 12:02:36 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:all? It looks like Bob has bested you in that area.
On Monday, August 22, 2022 at 12:54:51 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
On Sunday, August 21, 2022 at 1:31:20 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 11:02:22 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 5:40:52 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 6:55:44 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 5:28:18 AM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 12:09:17 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
On Friday, August 19, 2022 at 8:00:31 AM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Wednesday, August 17, 2022 at 8:35:51 AM UTC-4, Hank Nixon wrote:
On Tuesday, August 16, 2022 at 8:36:00 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:Also, depending on model:
I have NEVER seen a motorglider with a "dozen" engine controls.Add in on many if not most:
Dave conveniently doesn't cite said glider. The DG400, a pretty old motorglider, has:
1. Motor extension/retraction
2. Ignition
3. Choke
4. Throttle
5. Starter
6. Master switch for engine system
7. Associated breaker or fuse
8. Fuel safety cutoff valve.
9. Mechanical prop stop position.
Not a dozen, but closer
UH
10. manual prop brake
11. manual primer
12. emergency override switch (or switches)
But I've probably forgotten some...1. I don't use the prop brake to start the engine, only to stop the prop AFTER you have run the engine - maybe that's why it didn't start for you.
2. The DG400 doesn't have a manual primer - but if you wasted your time searching for it that would explain why you didn't get it started.
3. The DG400 has an emergency override motor extension switch if the regular switch doesn't work, but would ONLY be used in an emergency - maybe that is why you couldn't start it.
One REALLY shouldn't present themselves as an authority on a glider that they have not flown.
Why do you find such pleasure in the troubles of a club that is potentially going to have to move? RAS sparring is one thing, but you seem to enjoy the fact that a fellow club might be losing their home. Do you care about promoting soaring atHey Bobby, how is the search for the new airstrip going?TomHey DH, you sure are making a lot of friends! Old Bob, The Purist
environmental hairball.FWIW - There are a number of private airports in the area discussing the possibility of hosting the club. Plus, there is always the chance that the sale of New Hibiscus won't go through this time. Old ag strips can be a real estate
to contribute to this sport. Based on projections I will do more than 1200 tows myself in 2022. What have you done to support the soaring world? We have a great club and we are still growing, just as the kids that we are putting into the air, they mightIn the meantime, it's pretty low use the club's challenges as a personal attack on a fellow SSA member.
PAWho said I was finding pleasure in anything? I was making a simple inquiry, that's all.
TomDH, don't you ever get tired of getting your ass kicked? As Bluejet stated, we will be better and stronger than ever, even if X52 does sell we have plans for the future. Next week we will put 5 new glider pilots in the air, yes five more purist
The DH, which is reference to you is far beyond being gutter language, it is just a realistic description of you, as I mentioned prior, your reputation precedes your appearance. Old Bob, The PuristHardly - you have a LONG track record of nasty (and false) motorglider comments, among others. Now you are using gutter language. So sad...Hey Bobby, why are you so ANGRY?Dream on DH! Old Bob, The Purist
Tom
On Tuesday, August 16, 2022 at 6:52:52 AM UTC-6, Eric Greenwell wrote:one of the better and more realistic accounts of the reliability of the motorglider. I wish there were more articles like this kind in Soaring, it did not take a stand either for or against, rather stated the facts. Old Bob, The Purist
Frank Whiteley wrote on 8/15/2022 6:07 PM:
...
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)Eric, my comments were far from myopic, actually this is one of the first articles that actually portray the motorglider for what it actually is. I do not know the author, could care less, but the facts were right on target, I felt that it was
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
someone today still looking for his August copy. The office says there've been no production nor printing delays any month. The USPS advised businesses last fall that first class business mail would slow going forward, but nothing was said about otherEric, August 2022 is now online. Delayed through no fault of the SSA but the PDF was late this month. Delivery of the print edition has been a bit uneven also since maybe June. My July copy arrived 7/25, but my August arrived 8/7, yet I spoke withUntil the August Soaring is available online, I can't quote any specifics from the article. In
the meantime, ponder this: "unreliable" is a judgement, not a fact.
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
not as trivial as you think. I don't know what the delay was in getting it to the SSA.Frank Whiteley
Just got it! The delay was frustrating, as so many were referencing Dave's article, and IEric,
couldn't read it. It's puzzling the PDF isn't available weeks before the printed copy, as it
requires nothing physical for it to be generated.
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
The PDF was not received until late last week and is modified before publication including indexing to make it word searchable and to add links and to improve some of the graphic elements. It is not fully up to our standards as received. The process is
Frank
I cannot find a link on the SSA website to download anything. But:failure or failure to start, and have had to take unwanted tows about 5 times (out of hundreds of launches) due either to scheduled or unscheduled maintenance of the engine.
Dave seems to have had an unfortunate series of motorglider ownership experiences. Others have had better experiences. In 22 years, I have had exactly one failure to start (first start after the winter layup, fouled plug), zero occurrences of in-flight
The glider part of a motorglider is no more complex than any glider. The engine installation makes it more complicated as a system, but the engine installation is not functionally required for towed operation, so reliability is identical to a towedglider, if considering the same task. Maintenance of the engine/glider system, in my estimation and with my glider, is about 3x what the glider alone would be - however less than the glider/Pawnee system maintenance alternative.
In flight, there is definitely more complexity near a forced termination of flight (i.e. landout), if one wants to avail oneself of the option of self retrieve (and it is an option, not a necessity). One has to decide when to begin the engine startprocedure, keeping in mind that it may not cooperate. I do agree that one should always act surprised if it starts (though as I mentioned I have always been surprised). If you don't like surprises, then don't exercise that option.
If you cannot deal with the extra complexity, or cannot exercise the self control required to fly responsibly and depend on your life for surprises, then a motorglider is not for you. Where problems occur, they are most often in a mismatch of skill orexpectation with reality. You cannot really say "motorgliders are unreliable" - compared to what? They are what they are. Just don't misunderstand what they are.
On 8/23/2022 2:07 PM, jfitch wrote:flight failure or failure to start, and have had to take unwanted tows about 5 times (out of hundreds of launches) due either to scheduled or unscheduled maintenance of the engine.
I cannot find a link on the SSA website to download anything. But:
Dave seems to have had an unfortunate series of motorglider ownership experiences. Others have had better experiences. In 22 years, I have had exactly one failure to start (first start after the winter layup, fouled plug), zero occurrences of in-
glider, if considering the same task. Maintenance of the engine/glider system, in my estimation and with my glider, is about 3x what the glider alone would be - however less than the glider/Pawnee system maintenance alternative.The glider part of a motorglider is no more complex than any glider. The engine installation makes it more complicated as a system, but the engine installation is not functionally required for towed operation, so reliability is identical to a towed
procedure, keeping in mind that it may not cooperate. I do agree that one should always act surprised if it starts (though as I mentioned I have always been surprised). If you don't like surprises, then don't exercise that option.In flight, there is definitely more complexity near a forced termination of flight (i.e. landout), if one wants to avail oneself of the option of self retrieve (and it is an option, not a necessity). One has to decide when to begin the engine start
or expectation with reality. You cannot really say "motorgliders are unreliable" - compared to what? They are what they are. Just don't misunderstand what they are.If you cannot deal with the extra complexity, or cannot exercise the self control required to fly responsibly and depend on your life for surprises, then a motorglider is not for you. Where problems occur, they are most often in a mismatch of skill
My 27 years of motorglider experience closely matches Jon's experience (maybe it's aEric, Ramy is a member of a unique and respected group of glider pilots known as PURIST! there may be a day where he decides to go over to the dark side and he will forever be a purist to us select group of glider pilots void of motors. Ramy makes some
Schleicher thing). To those who insist "motorgliders are unreliable" should wonder why the
majority of sailplanes sold have a motor. Would pilots really fork over an extra
$30,000-$60,000 to buy an unreliable glider?
Most of those buyers get a (self-launching) motorglider because they want one that gets
them in the air more reliably than a towed glider, and all of them get it because it gets
them home more reliably. You can point out all the ways a motorglider can fail to perform
properly, but we owners know there isn't always a towplane when you we one, whether it's
the launch or a retrieve and the reliability a motor brings to our flying is worth the
extra cost, complexity, and occasional motor problem.
Of course, if you are Ramy Yanetz, and a tow plane magically appears exactly where and
when you need one, well then, don't bother with a motor!
https://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-3.0/gliding/flightinfo.html?dsId=9169517#comment
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
On Tuesday, August 23, 2022 at 6:07:02 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:flight failure or failure to start, and have had to take unwanted tows about 5 times (out of hundreds of launches) due either to scheduled or unscheduled maintenance of the engine.
On 8/23/2022 2:07 PM, jfitch wrote:
I cannot find a link on the SSA website to download anything. But:
Dave seems to have had an unfortunate series of motorglider ownership experiences. Others have had better experiences. In 22 years, I have had exactly one failure to start (first start after the winter layup, fouled plug), zero occurrences of in-
glider, if considering the same task. Maintenance of the engine/glider system, in my estimation and with my glider, is about 3x what the glider alone would be - however less than the glider/Pawnee system maintenance alternative.
The glider part of a motorglider is no more complex than any glider. The engine installation makes it more complicated as a system, but the engine installation is not functionally required for towed operation, so reliability is identical to a towed
procedure, keeping in mind that it may not cooperate. I do agree that one should always act surprised if it starts (though as I mentioned I have always been surprised). If you don't like surprises, then don't exercise that option.
In flight, there is definitely more complexity near a forced termination of flight (i.e. landout), if one wants to avail oneself of the option of self retrieve (and it is an option, not a necessity). One has to decide when to begin the engine start
or expectation with reality. You cannot really say "motorgliders are unreliable" - compared to what? They are what they are. Just don't misunderstand what they are.
If you cannot deal with the extra complexity, or cannot exercise the self control required to fly responsibly and depend on your life for surprises, then a motorglider is not for you. Where problems occur, they are most often in a mismatch of skill
great flight with that PURE 29. that must drive the motorglider guys crazy. Old Bob, The PuristMy 27 years of motorglider experience closely matches Jon's experience (maybe it's aEric, Ramy is a member of a unique and respected group of glider pilots known as PURIST! there may be a day where he decides to go over to the dark side and he will forever be a purist to us select group of glider pilots void of motors. Ramy makes some
Schleicher thing). To those who insist "motorgliders are unreliable" should wonder why the
majority of sailplanes sold have a motor. Would pilots really fork over an extra
$30,000-$60,000 to buy an unreliable glider?
Most of those buyers get a (self-launching) motorglider because they want one that gets
them in the air more reliably than a towed glider, and all of them get it because it gets
them home more reliably. You can point out all the ways a motorglider can fail to perform
properly, but we owners know there isn't always a towplane when you we one, whether it's
the launch or a retrieve and the reliability a motor brings to our flying is worth the
extra cost, complexity, and occasional motor problem.
Of course, if you are Ramy Yanetz, and a tow plane magically appears exactly where and
when you need one, well then, don't bother with a motor!
https://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-3.0/gliding/flightinfo.html?dsId=9169517#comment
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
On Monday, August 22, 2022 at 6:21:47 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:at all? It looks like Bob has bested you in that area.
On Monday, August 22, 2022 at 12:02:36 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Monday, August 22, 2022 at 12:54:51 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
On Sunday, August 21, 2022 at 1:31:20 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 11:02:22 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 5:40:52 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 6:55:44 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 5:28:18 AM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 12:09:17 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
On Friday, August 19, 2022 at 8:00:31 AM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Wednesday, August 17, 2022 at 8:35:51 AM UTC-4, Hank Nixon wrote:
On Tuesday, August 16, 2022 at 8:36:00 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:Also, depending on model:
I have NEVER seen a motorglider with a "dozen" engine controls.Add in on many if not most:
Dave conveniently doesn't cite said glider. The DG400, a pretty old motorglider, has:
1. Motor extension/retraction
2. Ignition
3. Choke
4. Throttle
5. Starter
6. Master switch for engine system
7. Associated breaker or fuse
8. Fuel safety cutoff valve.
9. Mechanical prop stop position.
Not a dozen, but closer
UH
10. manual prop brake
11. manual primer
12. emergency override switch (or switches)
But I've probably forgotten some...1. I don't use the prop brake to start the engine, only to stop the prop AFTER you have run the engine - maybe that's why it didn't start for you.
2. The DG400 doesn't have a manual primer - but if you wasted your time searching for it that would explain why you didn't get it started.
3. The DG400 has an emergency override motor extension switch if the regular switch doesn't work, but would ONLY be used in an emergency - maybe that is why you couldn't start it.
One REALLY shouldn't present themselves as an authority on a glider that they have not flown.
Why do you find such pleasure in the troubles of a club that is potentially going to have to move? RAS sparring is one thing, but you seem to enjoy the fact that a fellow club might be losing their home. Do you care about promoting soaringHey Bobby, how is the search for the new airstrip going?TomHey DH, you sure are making a lot of friends! Old Bob, The Purist
environmental hairball.FWIW - There are a number of private airports in the area discussing the possibility of hosting the club. Plus, there is always the chance that the sale of New Hibiscus won't go through this time. Old ag strips can be a real estate
to contribute to this sport. Based on projections I will do more than 1200 tows myself in 2022. What have you done to support the soaring world? We have a great club and we are still growing, just as the kids that we are putting into the air, they mightIn the meantime, it's pretty low use the club's challenges as a personal attack on a fellow SSA member.
PAWho said I was finding pleasure in anything? I was making a simple inquiry, that's all.
TomDH, don't you ever get tired of getting your ass kicked? As Bluejet stated, we will be better and stronger than ever, even if X52 does sell we have plans for the future. Next week we will put 5 new glider pilots in the air, yes five more purist
Hardly - you have a LONG track record of nasty (and false) motorglider comments, among others. Now you are using gutter language. So sad...Hey Bobby, why are you so ANGRY?Dream on DH! Old Bob, The Purist
TomThe DH, which is reference to you is far beyond being gutter language, it is just a realistic description of you, as I mentioned prior, your reputation precedes your appearance. Old Bob, The Purist
On Tuesday, August 23, 2022 at 12:29:15 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:soaring at all? It looks like Bob has bested you in that area.
On Monday, August 22, 2022 at 6:21:47 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
On Monday, August 22, 2022 at 12:02:36 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Monday, August 22, 2022 at 12:54:51 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
On Sunday, August 21, 2022 at 1:31:20 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 11:02:22 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 5:40:52 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 6:55:44 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 5:28:18 AM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 12:09:17 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
On Friday, August 19, 2022 at 8:00:31 AM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Wednesday, August 17, 2022 at 8:35:51 AM UTC-4, Hank Nixon wrote:
On Tuesday, August 16, 2022 at 8:36:00 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:Also, depending on model:
I have NEVER seen a motorglider with a "dozen" engine controls.Add in on many if not most:
Dave conveniently doesn't cite said glider. The DG400, a pretty old motorglider, has:
1. Motor extension/retraction
2. Ignition
3. Choke
4. Throttle
5. Starter
6. Master switch for engine system
7. Associated breaker or fuse
8. Fuel safety cutoff valve.
9. Mechanical prop stop position.
Not a dozen, but closer
UH
10. manual prop brake
11. manual primer
12. emergency override switch (or switches)
But I've probably forgotten some...1. I don't use the prop brake to start the engine, only to stop the prop AFTER you have run the engine - maybe that's why it didn't start for you.
2. The DG400 doesn't have a manual primer - but if you wasted your time searching for it that would explain why you didn't get it started.
3. The DG400 has an emergency override motor extension switch if the regular switch doesn't work, but would ONLY be used in an emergency - maybe that is why you couldn't start it.
One REALLY shouldn't present themselves as an authority on a glider that they have not flown.
Why do you find such pleasure in the troubles of a club that is potentially going to have to move? RAS sparring is one thing, but you seem to enjoy the fact that a fellow club might be losing their home. Do you care about promotingHey Bobby, how is the search for the new airstrip going?TomHey DH, you sure are making a lot of friends! Old Bob, The Purist
environmental hairball.FWIW - There are a number of private airports in the area discussing the possibility of hosting the club. Plus, there is always the chance that the sale of New Hibiscus won't go through this time. Old ag strips can be a real estate
purist to contribute to this sport. Based on projections I will do more than 1200 tows myself in 2022. What have you done to support the soaring world? We have a great club and we are still growing, just as the kids that we are putting into the air, theyIn the meantime, it's pretty low use the club's challenges as a personal attack on a fellow SSA member.
PAWho said I was finding pleasure in anything? I was making a simple inquiry, that's all.
TomDH, don't you ever get tired of getting your ass kicked? As Bluejet stated, we will be better and stronger than ever, even if X52 does sell we have plans for the future. Next week we will put 5 new glider pilots in the air, yes five more
You motorglider pilots are a bunch of queers. Not that there’s anything wrong with that. ;)Hardly - you have a LONG track record of nasty (and false) motorglider comments, among others. Now you are using gutter language. So sad...Hey Bobby, why are you so ANGRY?Dream on DH! Old Bob, The Purist
Hey Bobby, that is a TOTAL REFLECTION of YOU and YOUR character - it has nothing to do with me. You are an angry, bitter old man to be pitied. I feel sorry for you...TomThe DH, which is reference to you is far beyond being gutter language, it is just a realistic description of you, as I mentioned prior, your reputation precedes your appearance. Old Bob, The Purist
On Tuesday, August 23, 2022 at 12:29:15 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:all? It looks like Bob has bested you in that area.
On Monday, August 22, 2022 at 6:21:47 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
On Monday, August 22, 2022 at 12:02:36 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Monday, August 22, 2022 at 12:54:51 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
On Sunday, August 21, 2022 at 1:31:20 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 11:02:22 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 5:40:52 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 6:55:44 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 5:28:18 AM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:Why do you find such pleasure in the troubles of a club that is potentially going to have to move? RAS sparring is one thing, but you seem to enjoy the fact that a fellow club might be losing their home. Do you care about promoting soaring at
On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 12:09:17 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, August 19, 2022 at 8:00:31 AM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
Hey DH, you sure are making a lot of friends! Old Bob, The Purist >>>>>>>>> Hey Bobby, how is the search for the new airstrip going?On Wednesday, August 17, 2022 at 8:35:51 AM UTC-4, Hank Nixon wrote:1. I don't use the prop brake to start the engine, only to stop the prop AFTER you have run the engine - maybe that's why it didn't start for you.
On Tuesday, August 16, 2022 at 8:36:00 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have NEVER seen a motorglider with a "dozen" engine controls. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dave conveniently doesn't cite said glider. The DG400, a pretty old motorglider, has:Also, depending on model:
1. Motor extension/retractionAdd in on many if not most:
2. Ignition
3. Choke
4. Throttle
5. Starter
6. Master switch for engine system
7. Associated breaker or fuse
8. Fuel safety cutoff valve.
9. Mechanical prop stop position.
Not a dozen, but closer
UH
10. manual prop brake
11. manual primer
12. emergency override switch (or switches)
But I've probably forgotten some...
2. The DG400 doesn't have a manual primer - but if you wasted your time searching for it that would explain why you didn't get it started.
3. The DG400 has an emergency override motor extension switch if the regular switch doesn't work, but would ONLY be used in an emergency - maybe that is why you couldn't start it.
One REALLY shouldn't present themselves as an authority on a glider that they have not flown.
Tom
hairball.
FWIW - There are a number of private airports in the area discussing the possibility of hosting the club. Plus, there is always the chance that the sale of New Hibiscus won't go through this time. Old ag strips can be a real estate environmental
contribute to this sport. Based on projections I will do more than 1200 tows myself in 2022. What have you done to support the soaring world? We have a great club and we are still growing, just as the kids that we are putting into the air, they mightDH, don't you ever get tired of getting your ass kicked? As Bluejet stated, we will be better and stronger than ever, even if X52 does sell we have plans for the future. Next week we will put 5 new glider pilots in the air, yes five more purist toWho said I was finding pleasure in anything? I was making a simple inquiry, that's all.
In the meantime, it's pretty low use the club's challenges as a personal attack on a fellow SSA member.
PA
Tom
The DH, which is reference to you is far beyond being gutter language, it is just a realistic description of you, as I mentioned prior, your reputation precedes your appearance. Old Bob, The PuristHardly - you have a LONG track record of nasty (and false) motorglider comments, among others. Now you are using gutter language. So sad...Hey Bobby, why are you so ANGRY?Dream on DH! Old Bob, The Purist
Tom
Hey Bobby, that is a TOTAL REFLECTION of YOU and YOUR character - it has nothing to do with me. You are an angry, bitter old man to be pitied. I feel sorry for you...
I cannot find a link on the SSA website to download anything. But:failure or failure to start, and have had to take unwanted tows about 5 times (out of hundreds of launches) due either to scheduled or unscheduled maintenance of the engine.
Dave seems to have had an unfortunate series of motorglider ownership experiences. Others have had better experiences. In 22 years, I have had exactly one failure to start (first start after the winter layup, fouled plug), zero occurrences of in-flight
The glider part of a motorglider is no more complex than any glider. The engine installation makes it more complicated as a system, but the engine installation is not functionally required for towed operation, so reliability is identical to a towedglider, if considering the same task. Maintenance of the engine/glider system, in my estimation and with my glider, is about 3x what the glider alone would be - however less than the glider/Pawnee system maintenance alternative.
In flight, there is definitely more complexity near a forced termination of flight (i.e. landout), if one wants to avail oneself of the option of self retrieve (and it is an option, not a necessity). One has to decide when to begin the engine startprocedure, keeping in mind that it may not cooperate. I do agree that one should always act surprised if it starts (though as I mentioned I have always been surprised). If you don't like surprises, then don't exercise that option.
If you cannot deal with the extra complexity, or cannot exercise the self control required to fly responsibly and depend on your life for surprises, then a motorglider is not for you. Where problems occur, they are most often in a mismatch of skill orexpectation with reality. You cannot really say "motorgliders are unreliable" - compared to what? They are what they are. Just don't misunderstand what they are.
On Tuesday, August 16, 2022 at 8:51:40 AM UTC-7, Frank Whiteley wrote:one of the better and more realistic accounts of the reliability of the motorglider. I wish there were more articles like this kind in Soaring, it did not take a stand either for or against, rather stated the facts. Old Bob, The Purist
On Tuesday, August 16, 2022 at 6:52:52 AM UTC-6, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Frank Whiteley wrote on 8/15/2022 6:07 PM:
...
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)Eric, my comments were far from myopic, actually this is one of the first articles that actually portray the motorglider for what it actually is. I do not know the author, could care less, but the facts were right on target, I felt that it was
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
with someone today still looking for his August copy. The office says there've been no production nor printing delays any month. The USPS advised businesses last fall that first class business mail would slow going forward, but nothing was said aboutEric, August 2022 is now online. Delayed through no fault of the SSA but the PDF was late this month. Delivery of the print edition has been a bit uneven also since maybe June. My July copy arrived 7/25, but my August arrived 8/7, yet I spokeUntil the August Soaring is available online, I can't quote any specifics from the article. In
the meantime, ponder this: "unreliable" is a judgement, not a fact.
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
is not as trivial as you think. I don't know what the delay was in getting it to the SSA.Frank Whiteley
Just got it! The delay was frustrating, as so many were referencing Dave's article, and IEric,
couldn't read it. It's puzzling the PDF isn't available weeks before the printed copy, as it
requires nothing physical for it to be generated.
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
The PDF was not received until late last week and is modified before publication including indexing to make it word searchable and to add links and to improve some of the graphic elements. It is not fully up to our standards as received. The process
Frank
On Tuesday, August 23, 2022 at 5:07:07 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:flight failure or failure to start, and have had to take unwanted tows about 5 times (out of hundreds of launches) due either to scheduled or unscheduled maintenance of the engine.
I cannot find a link on the SSA website to download anything. But:
Dave seems to have had an unfortunate series of motorglider ownership experiences. Others have had better experiences. In 22 years, I have had exactly one failure to start (first start after the winter layup, fouled plug), zero occurrences of in-
glider, if considering the same task. Maintenance of the engine/glider system, in my estimation and with my glider, is about 3x what the glider alone would be - however less than the glider/Pawnee system maintenance alternative.
The glider part of a motorglider is no more complex than any glider. The engine installation makes it more complicated as a system, but the engine installation is not functionally required for towed operation, so reliability is identical to a towed
procedure, keeping in mind that it may not cooperate. I do agree that one should always act surprised if it starts (though as I mentioned I have always been surprised). If you don't like surprises, then don't exercise that option.
In flight, there is definitely more complexity near a forced termination of flight (i.e. landout), if one wants to avail oneself of the option of self retrieve (and it is an option, not a necessity). One has to decide when to begin the engine start
expectation with reality. You cannot really say "motorgliders are unreliable" - compared to what? They are what they are. Just don't misunderstand what they are.
If you cannot deal with the extra complexity, or cannot exercise the self control required to fly responsibly and depend on your life for surprises, then a motorglider is not for you. Where problems occur, they are most often in a mismatch of skill or
Fitch, I hope you have returned back home safely from the adventures on the pacific into Alaska, I was pondering if and when you would return. I would consider Dave as an authority on motorgliders, although I have never met the gentleman I have seensome of his OLC flights, and his experience speaks for itself . You continue to talk about all this motorglider experience over 26 years yet I still only see a few flights posted. On the other hand Eric takes his motorglider to Ely and sits there the
I certainly have not been as active lately as I would like to have been, the fishing boat is keeping me busy when I am not towing those fantastic purist. The invitation still stands, bring those motorglider down to Florida and we will go for a flight,Eric, make sure all the maintenance is done before you get here.
Well, guess I better get going because tomorrow is a fishing day, headed out to the deep blue early and hopefully will bring home a few grouper for the evening dinner. Old Bob, The Purist. Except for the fishing boat, 900 hp of outboard.>
On Tuesday, August 23, 2022 at 5:07:07 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:flight failure or failure to start, and have had to take unwanted tows about 5 times (out of hundreds of launches) due either to scheduled or unscheduled maintenance of the engine.
I cannot find a link on the SSA website to download anything. But:
Dave seems to have had an unfortunate series of motorglider ownership experiences. Others have had better experiences. In 22 years, I have had exactly one failure to start (first start after the winter layup, fouled plug), zero occurrences of in-
glider, if considering the same task. Maintenance of the engine/glider system, in my estimation and with my glider, is about 3x what the glider alone would be - however less than the glider/Pawnee system maintenance alternative.The glider part of a motorglider is no more complex than any glider. The engine installation makes it more complicated as a system, but the engine installation is not functionally required for towed operation, so reliability is identical to a towed
procedure, keeping in mind that it may not cooperate. I do agree that one should always act surprised if it starts (though as I mentioned I have always been surprised). If you don't like surprises, then don't exercise that option.In flight, there is definitely more complexity near a forced termination of flight (i.e. landout), if one wants to avail oneself of the option of self retrieve (and it is an option, not a necessity). One has to decide when to begin the engine start
or expectation with reality. You cannot really say "motorgliders are unreliable" - compared to what? They are what they are. Just don't misunderstand what they are.If you cannot deal with the extra complexity, or cannot exercise the self control required to fly responsibly and depend on your life for surprises, then a motorglider is not for you. Where problems occur, they are most often in a mismatch of skill
Fitch, I hope you have returned back home safely from the adventures on the pacific into Alaska, I was pondering if and when you would return. I would consider Dave as an authority on motorgliders, although I have never met the gentleman I have seensome of his OLC flights, and his experience speaks for itself . You continue to talk about all this motorglider experience over 26 years yet I still only see a few flights posted. On the other hand Eric takes his motorglider to Ely and sits there the
I certainly have not been as active lately as I would like to have been, the fishing boat is keeping me busy when I am not towing those fantastic purist. The invitation still stands, bring those motorglider down to Florida and we will go for a flight,Eric, make sure all the maintenance is done before you get here.
Well, guess I better get going because tomorrow is a fishing day, headed out to the deep blue early and hopefully will bring home a few grouper for the evening dinner. Old Bob, The Purist. Except for the fishing boat, 900 hp of outboard.>was one of the better and more realistic accounts of the reliability of the motorglider. I wish there were more articles like this kind in Soaring, it did not take a stand either for or against, rather stated the facts. Old Bob, The Purist
On Tuesday, August 16, 2022 at 8:51:40 AM UTC-7, Frank Whiteley wrote:
On Tuesday, August 16, 2022 at 6:52:52 AM UTC-6, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Frank Whiteley wrote on 8/15/2022 6:07 PM:
...
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)Eric, my comments were far from myopic, actually this is one of the first articles that actually portray the motorglider for what it actually is. I do not know the author, could care less, but the facts were right on target, I felt that it
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
with someone today still looking for his August copy. The office says there've been no production nor printing delays any month. The USPS advised businesses last fall that first class business mail would slow going forward, but nothing was said aboutEric, August 2022 is now online. Delayed through no fault of the SSA but the PDF was late this month. Delivery of the print edition has been a bit uneven also since maybe June. My July copy arrived 7/25, but my August arrived 8/7, yet I spokeUntil the August Soaring is available online, I can't quote any specifics from the article. In
the meantime, ponder this: "unreliable" is a judgement, not a fact. >> --
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
process is not as trivial as you think. I don't know what the delay was in getting it to the SSA.Frank Whiteley
Just got it! The delay was frustrating, as so many were referencing Dave's article, and IEric,
couldn't read it. It's puzzling the PDF isn't available weeks before the printed copy, as it
requires nothing physical for it to be generated.
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
The PDF was not received until late last week and is modified before publication including indexing to make it word searchable and to add links and to improve some of the graphic elements. It is not fully up to our standards as received. The
Frank
Old Bob, you aren't a Purist or you would be fishing from a rowboat or at least under sail. I'm still southbound on the boat, now in Canada near the north end of Vancouver Island. I may yet make it back for a few flights before End Of Season in Truckee.
To answer your question, yes you have missed something, willfully and persistently. You define and contain your life to OLC. There are those of us (who are many) that don't give a damn about OLC and don't post there. I've said this before but it justwhistles through the vacuum and out your other ear. Also, it is 22 years of motorglider experience, not 26 - let's stick to the facts (and not the alternative ones) - while you have no cross country motorglider experience at all. You've said as much, and
On Wednesday, August 24, 2022 at 1:21:15 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:flight failure or failure to start, and have had to take unwanted tows about 5 times (out of hundreds of launches) due either to scheduled or unscheduled maintenance of the engine.
On Tuesday, August 23, 2022 at 5:07:07 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
I cannot find a link on the SSA website to download anything. But:
Dave seems to have had an unfortunate series of motorglider ownership experiences. Others have had better experiences. In 22 years, I have had exactly one failure to start (first start after the winter layup, fouled plug), zero occurrences of in-
glider, if considering the same task. Maintenance of the engine/glider system, in my estimation and with my glider, is about 3x what the glider alone would be - however less than the glider/Pawnee system maintenance alternative.The glider part of a motorglider is no more complex than any glider. The engine installation makes it more complicated as a system, but the engine installation is not functionally required for towed operation, so reliability is identical to a towed
procedure, keeping in mind that it may not cooperate. I do agree that one should always act surprised if it starts (though as I mentioned I have always been surprised). If you don't like surprises, then don't exercise that option.In flight, there is definitely more complexity near a forced termination of flight (i.e. landout), if one wants to avail oneself of the option of self retrieve (and it is an option, not a necessity). One has to decide when to begin the engine start
or expectation with reality. You cannot really say "motorgliders are unreliable" - compared to what? They are what they are. Just don't misunderstand what they are.If you cannot deal with the extra complexity, or cannot exercise the self control required to fly responsibly and depend on your life for surprises, then a motorglider is not for you. Where problems occur, they are most often in a mismatch of skill
some of his OLC flights, and his experience speaks for itself . You continue to talk about all this motorglider experience over 26 years yet I still only see a few flights posted. On the other hand Eric takes his motorglider to Ely and sits there theFitch, I hope you have returned back home safely from the adventures on the pacific into Alaska, I was pondering if and when you would return. I would consider Dave as an authority on motorgliders, although I have never met the gentleman I have seen
Eric, make sure all the maintenance is done before you get here.I certainly have not been as active lately as I would like to have been, the fishing boat is keeping me busy when I am not towing those fantastic purist. The invitation still stands, bring those motorglider down to Florida and we will go for a flight,
was one of the better and more realistic accounts of the reliability of the motorglider. I wish there were more articles like this kind in Soaring, it did not take a stand either for or against, rather stated the facts. Old Bob, The PuristWell, guess I better get going because tomorrow is a fishing day, headed out to the deep blue early and hopefully will bring home a few grouper for the evening dinner. Old Bob, The Purist. Except for the fishing boat, 900 hp of outboard.>
On Tuesday, August 16, 2022 at 8:51:40 AM UTC-7, Frank Whiteley wrote:
On Tuesday, August 16, 2022 at 6:52:52 AM UTC-6, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Frank Whiteley wrote on 8/15/2022 6:07 PM:
...
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)Eric, my comments were far from myopic, actually this is one of the first articles that actually portray the motorglider for what it actually is. I do not know the author, could care less, but the facts were right on target, I felt that it
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
with someone today still looking for his August copy. The office says there've been no production nor printing delays any month. The USPS advised businesses last fall that first class business mail would slow going forward, but nothing was said aboutEric, August 2022 is now online. Delayed through no fault of the SSA but the PDF was late this month. Delivery of the print edition has been a bit uneven also since maybe June. My July copy arrived 7/25, but my August arrived 8/7, yet I spokeUntil the August Soaring is available online, I can't quote any specifics from the article. In
the meantime, ponder this: "unreliable" is a judgement, not a fact.
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
process is not as trivial as you think. I don't know what the delay was in getting it to the SSA.Frank Whiteley
Just got it! The delay was frustrating, as so many were referencing Dave's article, and IEric,
couldn't read it. It's puzzling the PDF isn't available weeks before the printed copy, as it
requires nothing physical for it to be generated.
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
The PDF was not received until late last week and is modified before publication including indexing to make it word searchable and to add links and to improve some of the graphic elements. It is not fully up to our standards as received. The
Fitch, Bro, you know that I love you, only pulling your chain. Yes fishing from the rowboat would take a while to get to the gulfstream, but the Freeman and 900 horses get me there in record time.Frank
On Wednesday, August 24, 2022 at 6:18:45 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:Truckee.
Old Bob, you aren't a Purist or you would be fishing from a rowboat or at least under sail. I'm still southbound on the boat, now in Canada near the north end of Vancouver Island. I may yet make it back for a few flights before End Of Season in
whistles through the vacuum and out your other ear. Also, it is 22 years of motorglider experience, not 26 - let's stick to the facts (and not the alternative ones) - while you have no cross country motorglider experience at all. You've said as much, andTo answer your question, yes you have missed something, willfully and persistently. You define and contain your life to OLC. There are those of us (who are many) that don't give a damn about OLC and don't post there. I've said this before but it just
flight failure or failure to start, and have had to take unwanted tows about 5 times (out of hundreds of launches) due either to scheduled or unscheduled maintenance of the engine.On Wednesday, August 24, 2022 at 1:21:15 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Tuesday, August 23, 2022 at 5:07:07 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
I cannot find a link on the SSA website to download anything. But:
Dave seems to have had an unfortunate series of motorglider ownership experiences. Others have had better experiences. In 22 years, I have had exactly one failure to start (first start after the winter layup, fouled plug), zero occurrences of in-
towed glider, if considering the same task. Maintenance of the engine/glider system, in my estimation and with my glider, is about 3x what the glider alone would be - however less than the glider/Pawnee system maintenance alternative.The glider part of a motorglider is no more complex than any glider. The engine installation makes it more complicated as a system, but the engine installation is not functionally required for towed operation, so reliability is identical to a
start procedure, keeping in mind that it may not cooperate. I do agree that one should always act surprised if it starts (though as I mentioned I have always been surprised). If you don't like surprises, then don't exercise that option.In flight, there is definitely more complexity near a forced termination of flight (i.e. landout), if one wants to avail oneself of the option of self retrieve (and it is an option, not a necessity). One has to decide when to begin the engine
skill or expectation with reality. You cannot really say "motorgliders are unreliable" - compared to what? They are what they are. Just don't misunderstand what they are.If you cannot deal with the extra complexity, or cannot exercise the self control required to fly responsibly and depend on your life for surprises, then a motorglider is not for you. Where problems occur, they are most often in a mismatch of
seen some of his OLC flights, and his experience speaks for itself . You continue to talk about all this motorglider experience over 26 years yet I still only see a few flights posted. On the other hand Eric takes his motorglider to Ely and sits thereFitch, I hope you have returned back home safely from the adventures on the pacific into Alaska, I was pondering if and when you would return. I would consider Dave as an authority on motorgliders, although I have never met the gentleman I have
flight, Eric, make sure all the maintenance is done before you get here.I certainly have not been as active lately as I would like to have been, the fishing boat is keeping me busy when I am not towing those fantastic purist. The invitation still stands, bring those motorglider down to Florida and we will go for a
it was one of the better and more realistic accounts of the reliability of the motorglider. I wish there were more articles like this kind in Soaring, it did not take a stand either for or against, rather stated the facts. Old Bob, The PuristWell, guess I better get going because tomorrow is a fishing day, headed out to the deep blue early and hopefully will bring home a few grouper for the evening dinner. Old Bob, The Purist. Except for the fishing boat, 900 hp of outboard.>
On Tuesday, August 16, 2022 at 8:51:40 AM UTC-7, Frank Whiteley wrote:
On Tuesday, August 16, 2022 at 6:52:52 AM UTC-6, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Frank Whiteley wrote on 8/15/2022 6:07 PM:
...
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)Eric, my comments were far from myopic, actually this is one of the first articles that actually portray the motorglider for what it actually is. I do not know the author, could care less, but the facts were right on target, I felt that
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
spoke with someone today still looking for his August copy. The office says there've been no production nor printing delays any month. The USPS advised businesses last fall that first class business mail would slow going forward, but nothing was saidEric, August 2022 is now online. Delayed through no fault of the SSA but the PDF was late this month. Delivery of the print edition has been a bit uneven also since maybe June. My July copy arrived 7/25, but my August arrived 8/7, yet IUntil the August Soaring is available online, I can't quote any specifics from the article. In
the meantime, ponder this: "unreliable" is a judgement, not a fact.
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
process is not as trivial as you think. I don't know what the delay was in getting it to the SSA.Frank Whiteley
Just got it! The delay was frustrating, as so many were referencing Dave's article, and IEric,
couldn't read it. It's puzzling the PDF isn't available weeks before the printed copy, as it
requires nothing physical for it to be generated.
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
The PDF was not received until late last week and is modified before publication including indexing to make it word searchable and to add links and to improve some of the graphic elements. It is not fully up to our standards as received. The
cheat to gain a Florida record that should have never been permitted.Fitch, Bro, you know that I love you, only pulling your chain. Yes fishing from the rowboat would take a while to get to the gulfstream, but the Freeman and 900 horses get me there in record time.Frank
Now about OLC, I too spent years skirting the sky with no OLC to post, kind of felt comfortable just having a great time and causing havoc among those motorglider guys. What really gets my goat is those damn cheaters among us all. I even had a purist
Now the invitation still stands for you motorglider pukes, come on down to Vero Beach and fly with me here at FD25, you can motorhome here at my place, I will throw out the red carpet, Eileen will prepare her wonderful dish of fresh ceviche, and thebooze will be on me. You can bring Eric, as long as he spends his time flying instead of working on the POS motorglider. Please keep that Dickhead 2G somewhere near the pacific northwest where he belongs, I would hate for him to stink up the entire
Here's a better plan: we meet half way at Moriarty, where the soaring is
much better, and so is the scenery. Maybe Dan will give us rides in his gyrocopter. B
Sure! But I have to watch the gross weight!
Dan
5J
On 8/24/22 16:24, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Here's a better plan: we meet half way at Moriarty, where the soaring is much better,
and so is the scenery. Maybe Dan will give us rides in his gyrocopter. B
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