have a nasty electrical fire if there is a short between board layers. I know this fromThe MGM HBC series controllers that were being used(not sure if they still are), can
systems. If those guys can screw up, how are we going to get fool-proof zero maintenanceFWIW
UH
That's weird. MGM-Compro is sposed to be a world leader in electrical propulsion
Trying to get this into it's own thread - 1st try failed.
On 4/6/2022 6:23 AM, kinsell wrote:
have a nasty electrical fire if there is a short between board layers. I know this fromThe MGM HBC series controllers that were being used(not sure if they still are), can
first hand experience. The fire stops as soon as power is removed. Very stinky.
FWIW
UH
That's weird. MGM-Compro is sposed to be a world leader in electrical propulsionsystems. If those guys can screw up, how are we going to get fool-proof zero maintenance
ultra reliable electric motor gliders??
I have good news for you: we have that glider already! And, it uses an FES propulsion.
Talk to FES owners, monitor their news groups, and you'll discover what I did: the owners
are very happy, and the news groups have very little conversation. Why is that? One dealer
summed it up this way: "What's to talk about? You charge it, you fly it, repeat as desired."
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
Trying to get this into it's own thread - 1st try failed.
On 4/6/2022 6:23 AM, kinsell wrote:
have a nasty electrical fire if there is a short between board layers. I know this fromThe MGM HBC series controllers that were being used(not sure if they still are), can
first hand experience. The fire stops as soon as power is removed. Very stinky.
FWIW
UH
That's weird. MGM-Compro is sposed to be a world leader in electrical propulsionsystems. If those guys can screw up, how are we going to get fool-proof zero maintenance
ultra reliable electric motor gliders??
I have good news for you: we have that glider already! And, it uses an FES propulsion.
Talk to FES owners, monitor their news groups, and you'll discover what I did: the owners
are very happy, and the news groups have very little conversation. Why is that? One dealer
summed it up this way: "What's to talk about? You charge it, you fly it, repeat as desired."
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
ultra reliable electric motor gliders??
Trying to get this into it's own thread - 1st try failed.
On 4/6/2022 6:23 AM, kinsell wrote:
have a nasty electrical fire if there is a short between board layers. I know this fromThe MGM HBC series controllers that were being used(not sure if they still are), can
first hand experience. The fire stops as soon as power is removed. Very stinky.
FWIW
UH
That's weird. MGM-Compro is sposed to be a world leader in electrical propulsionsystems. If those guys can screw up, how are we going to get fool-proof zero maintenance
ultra reliable electric motor gliders??
I have good news for you: we have that glider already! And, it uses an FES propulsion.
Talk to FES owners, monitor their news groups, and you'll discover what I did: the owners
are very happy, and the news groups have very little conversation. Why is that? One dealer
summed it up this way: "What's to talk about? You charge it, you fly it, repeat as desired."
When the engine is running, the ventilation opening is automatically
opened under the wing by means of an electric servo."
But what about when the engine is NOT running? Will these ventilation ducts openWe still don't know what caused the fire on the ship, so I don't think we should assume it
automagically if the engine is off and a battery fire starts anyway? Think about that
ship; I don't think any of the cars onboard were running.
Dan
5J
On 4/8/22 08:40, Eric Greenwell wrote:
When the engine is running, the ventilation opening is automatically opened under the
wing by means of an electric servo."
On 4/8/2022 9:13 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
But what about when the engine is NOT running? Will these ventilationWe still don't know what caused the fire on the ship, so I don't think
ducts open automagically if the engine is off and a battery fire
starts anyway? Think about that ship; I don't think any of the cars
onboard were running.
Dan
5J
On 4/8/22 08:40, Eric Greenwell wrote:
When the engine is running, the ventilation opening is automatically
opened under the wing by means of an electric servo."
we should assume it occurred spontaneously in an EV.
I don't know the details of the Antares system, but making the vent open automatically when a fire is detected would be simple, as the sensors,
servo, and control unit are already there, and likely standard operation
is to leave them turned on during flight.
Other simpler methods could be used: a mechanical thermofuse could
release a spring loaded vent door when the battery box temperature
increased after cell eruption.
Oh - Sensors and servos... I've got them all over my Stemme.
As to not assuming the shipboard fire started in a car, I would find it easier to assume
that than some other thing. True, we don't have any details and probably won't get any
but I gotta ask: What generates a fire hot enough to sink a ship which, one would assume,
has fire suppression systems.
Dan
5J
On 4/8/22 10:57, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 4/8/2022 9:13 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
But what about when the engine is NOT running? Will these ventilation ducts openWe still don't know what caused the fire on the ship, so I don't think we should assume
automagically if the engine is off and a battery fire starts anyway? Think about that
ship; I don't think any of the cars onboard were running.
Dan
5J
On 4/8/22 08:40, Eric Greenwell wrote:
When the engine is running, the ventilation opening is automatically opened under the
wing by means of an electric servo."
it occurred spontaneously in an EV.
I don't know the details of the Antares system, but making the vent open automatically
when a fire is detected would be simple, as the sensors, servo, and control unit are
already there, and likely standard operation is to leave them turned on during flight.
Other simpler methods could be used: a mechanical thermofuse could release a spring
loaded vent door when the battery box temperature increased after cell eruption.
BREAKING NEWS: The (former) owner of the Felicity Ace has decided against shipping used
bev cars in the future.
https://wonderfulengineering.com/this-car-shipping-giant-has-banned-shipping-of-used-evs-after-the-felicity-ace-sinking/
Now that doesn't definitively prove anything, but it shows which way they're leaning (or
listing).
On 4/8/22 20:10, Eric Greenwell wrote:
It would be very entertaining to listen in on the board meetings of the insurance
company(s), shipping company, the ship designers, the ship builder, owners of the cargo
(car-go: got to be a good pun in there), and their discussions with each other and the
people that loaded the vehicles, and the captain and the crew. A lot of actors in this
disaster, likely multiple errors.
On 4/8/2022 5:14 PM, Dan Marotta wrote:
Oh - Sensors and servos... I've got them all over my Stemme.
As to not assuming the shipboard fire started in a car, I would find it easier to
assume that than some other thing. True, we don't have any details and probably won't
get any but I gotta ask: What generates a fire hot enough to sink a ship which, one
would assume, has fire suppression systems.
Dan
5J
On 4/8/22 10:57, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 4/8/2022 9:13 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
But what about when the engine is NOT running? Will these ventilation ducts openWe still don't know what caused the fire on the ship, so I don't think we should
automagically if the engine is off and a battery fire starts anyway? Think about
that ship; I don't think any of the cars onboard were running.
Dan
5J
On 4/8/22 08:40, Eric Greenwell wrote:
When the engine is running, the ventilation opening is automatically opened under
the wing by means of an electric servo."
assume it occurred spontaneously in an EV.
I don't know the details of the Antares system, but making the vent open automatically
when a fire is detected would be simple, as the sensors, servo, and control unit are
already there, and likely standard operation is to leave them turned on during flight.
Other simpler methods could be used: a mechanical thermofuse could release a spring
loaded vent door when the battery box temperature increased after cell eruption.
It would be very entertaining to listen in on the board meetings of the insurance company(s), shipping company, the ship designers, the ship
builder, owners of the cargo (car-go: got to be a good pun in there),
and their discussions with each other and the people that loaded the vehicles, and the captain and the crew. A lot of actors in this
disaster, likely multiple errors.
On 4/8/2022 5:14 PM, Dan Marotta wrote:
Oh - Sensors and servos... I've got them all over my Stemme.
As to not assuming the shipboard fire started in a car, I would find
it easier to assume that than some other thing. True, we don't have
any details and probably won't get any but I gotta ask: What
generates a fire hot enough to sink a ship which, one would assume,
has fire suppression systems.
Dan
5J
On 4/8/22 10:57, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 4/8/2022 9:13 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
But what about when the engine is NOT running? Will theseWe still don't know what caused the fire on the ship, so I don't
ventilation ducts open automagically if the engine is off and a
battery fire starts anyway? Think about that ship; I don't think
any of the cars onboard were running.
Dan
5J
On 4/8/22 08:40, Eric Greenwell wrote:
When the engine is running, the ventilation opening is
automatically opened under the wing by means of an electric servo."
think we should assume it occurred spontaneously in an EV.
I don't know the details of the Antares system, but making the vent
open automatically when a fire is detected would be simple, as the
sensors, servo, and control unit are already there, and likely
standard operation is to leave them turned on during flight.
Other simpler methods could be used: a mechanical thermofuse could
release a spring loaded vent door when the battery box temperature
increased after cell eruption.
On 4/8/2022 9:13 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
But what about when the engine is NOT running? Will these ventilation ducts open
automagically if the engine is off and a battery fire starts anyway? Think about that
ship; I don't think any of the cars onboard were running.
Dan
5J
On 4/8/22 08:40, Eric Greenwell wrote:We still don't know what caused the fire on the ship, so I don't think we should assume it
When the engine is running, the ventilation opening is automatically opened under the
wing by means of an electric servo."
occurred spontaneously in an EV.
I don't know the details of the Antares system, but making the vent open automatically
when a fire is detected would be simple, as the sensors, servo, and control unit are
already there, and likely standard operation is to leave them turned on during flight.
Other simpler methods could be used: a mechanical thermofuse could release a spring loaded
vent door when the battery box temperature increased after cell eruption.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
Is supplying a burning battery compartment with fresh oxygen the right solution? Most modern battery fires cannot be extinguished (see Tesla advice to fire fighters). Smaller Lipo and LiFe batteries are charged and stored in a sealed fiberglass bagto deprive the battery of oxygen if it catches fire. I would prefer that the pilot is supplied with fresh air until he can bail out.
Matt
On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 9:57:22 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 4/8/2022 9:13 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
But what about when the engine is NOT running? Will these ventilation ducts openWe still don't know what caused the fire on the ship, so I don't think we should assume it
automagically if the engine is off and a battery fire starts anyway? Think about that
ship; I don't think any of the cars onboard were running.
Dan
5J
On 4/8/22 08:40, Eric Greenwell wrote:
When the engine is running, the ventilation opening is automatically opened under the
wing by means of an electric servo."
occurred spontaneously in an EV.
I don't know the details of the Antares system, but making the vent open automatically
when a fire is detected would be simple, as the sensors, servo, and control unit are
already there, and likely standard operation is to leave them turned on during flight.
Other simpler methods could be used: a mechanical thermofuse could release a spring loaded
vent door when the battery box temperature increased after cell eruption.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
The pilot's fresh air vents still work normally, and if the battery box design meets the
certification requirements, he will not need to bail out, but simply land at an airport.
The pilot's fresh air vents still work normally, and if the battery box design meets the
certification requirements, he will not need to bail out, but simply land at an airport.
Or you can simply land directly below the place your wings or fuselage melted. Venting fumes probably won't compensate for the heat of the battery fire.
Trying to get this into it's own thread - 1st try failed.
On 4/6/2022 6:23 AM, kinsell wrote:
have a nasty electrical fire if there is a short between board layers. I know this fromThe MGM HBC series controllers that were being used(not sure if they still are), can
first hand experience. The fire stops as soon as power is removed. Very stinky.
FWIW
UH
That's weird. MGM-Compro is sposed to be a world leader in electrical propulsionsystems. If those guys can screw up, how are we going to get fool-proof zero maintenance
ultra reliable electric motor gliders??
I have good news for you: we have that glider already! And, it uses an FES propulsion.
Talk to FES owners, monitor their news groups, and you'll discover what I did: the owners
are very happy, and the news groups have very little conversation. Why is that? One dealer
summed it up this way: "What's to talk about? You charge it, you fly it, repeat as desired."
On 4/8/2022 7:18 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Trying to get this into it's own thread - 1st try failed.
On 4/6/2022 6:23 AM, kinsell wrote:
have a nasty electrical fire if there is a short between board layers. I know this fromThe MGM HBC series controllers that were being used(not sure if they still are), can
first hand experience. The fire stops as soon as power is removed. Very stinky.
FWIW
UH
That's weird. MGM-Compro is sposed to be a world leader in electrical propulsionsystems. If those guys can screw up, how are we going to get fool-proof zero maintenance
ultra reliable electric motor gliders??
I have good news for you: we have that glider already! And, it uses an FES propulsion.
Talk to FES owners, monitor their news groups, and you'll discover what I did: the owners
are very happy, and the news groups have very little conversation. Why is that? One dealer
summed it up this way: "What's to talk about? You charge it, you fly it, repeat as desired."
I'm surprised no one has disputed the claim FES gliders are (relatively) simple to
operate, very low maintenance, highly reliable motorgliders. I don't think the claim is
exaggerated, but I thought some might think so.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
On 4/8/2022 7:18 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Trying to get this into it's own thread - 1st try failed.I'm surprised no one has disputed the claim FES gliders are (relatively) simple to
On 4/6/2022 6:23 AM, kinsell wrote:
have a nasty electrical fire if there is a short between board layers. I know this fromThe MGM HBC series controllers that were being used(not sure if they still are), can
first hand experience. The fire stops as soon as power is removed. Very stinky.
systems. If those guys can screw up, how are we going to get fool-proof zeroFWIW;
UH
That's weird. MGM-Compro is sposed to be a world leader in electrical propulsion
maintenance ultra reliable electric motor gliders??
I have good news for you: we have that glider already! And, it uses an FES propulsion.
Talk to FES owners, monitor their news groups, and you'll discover what I did: the
owners are very happy, and the news groups have very little conversation. Why is that?
One dealer summed it up this way: "What's to talk about? You charge it, you fly it,
repeat as desired."
operate, very low maintenance, highly reliable motorgliders. I don't think the claim is
exaggerated, but I thought some might think so.
On 4/10/2022 10:01 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:They'll just make a better fool. It's like an arms race!
On 4/8/2022 7:18 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Trying to get this into it's own thread - 1st try failed.I'm surprised no one has disputed the claim FES gliders are (relatively) simple to
On 4/6/2022 6:23 AM, kinsell wrote:
have a nasty electrical fire if there is a short between board layers. I know this fromThe MGM HBC series controllers that were being used(not sure if they still are), can
first hand experience. The fire stops as soon as power is removed. Very stinky.
systems. If those guys can screw up, how are we going to get fool-proof zeroFWIW
UH
That's weird. MGM-Compro is sposed to be a world leader in electrical propulsion
maintenance ultra reliable electric motor gliders??
I have good news for you: we have that glider already! And, it uses an FES propulsion.
Talk to FES owners, monitor their news groups, and you'll discover what I did: the
owners are very happy, and the news groups have very little conversation. Why is that?
One dealer summed it up this way: "What's to talk about? You charge it, you fly it,
repeat as desired."
operate, very low maintenance, highly reliable motorgliders. I don't think the claim is
exaggerated, but I thought some might think so.
I haven't heard from anyone disputing my remarks about FES gliders, but I did hear from
the owner of an FES glider, who also owns a very nice gas glider:
"The FES system is almost as reliable as a bird flapping its wings.
The need to read the manuals and follow limitations falls on a human.
So battery care and weather element care might be forgotten maintenance by humans.
The birds just need to find food and not become food.
So FES is close to zero but not without fool-proof reliability."
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
If those guys can screw up, how are we going to get fool-proof zero maintenance
Anything more complex than a rock is probably never going to qualify as fool-proof, zero maintenance and ultra reliable.ultra reliable electric motor gliders??
It doesn't help that the department in charge of engineering fools has a better budget, no limits on overtime and a real aptitude for getting new models into production.
If those guys can screw up, how are we going to get fool-proof zero maintenance
Anything more complex than a rock is probably never going to qualify as fool-proof, zero maintenance and ultra reliable.ultra reliable electric motor gliders??
Not sure rocks are fool proof. There's a reason you don't put two rock and a US Marine in a closed room....They will lose one and break the other. :)
On 4/10/2022 10:01 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:Eric,
On 4/8/2022 7:18 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Trying to get this into it's own thread - 1st try failed.I'm surprised no one has disputed the claim FES gliders are (relatively) simple to
On 4/6/2022 6:23 AM, kinsell wrote:
have a nasty electrical fire if there is a short between board layers. I know this fromThe MGM HBC series controllers that were being used(not sure if they still are), can
first hand experience. The fire stops as soon as power is removed. Very stinky.
systems. If those guys can screw up, how are we going to get fool-proof zeroFWIW
UH
That's weird. MGM-Compro is sposed to be a world leader in electrical propulsion
maintenance ultra reliable electric motor gliders??
I have good news for you: we have that glider already! And, it uses an FES propulsion.
Talk to FES owners, monitor their news groups, and you'll discover what I did: the
owners are very happy, and the news groups have very little conversation. Why is that?
One dealer summed it up this way: "What's to talk about? You charge it, you fly it,
repeat as desired."
operate, very low maintenance, highly reliable motorgliders. I don't think the claim is
exaggerated, but I thought some might think so.
I haven't heard from anyone disputing my remarks about FES gliders, but I did hear from
the owner of an FES glider, who also owns a very nice gas glider:
"The FES system is almost as reliable as a bird flapping its wings.
The need to read the manuals and follow limitations falls on a human.
So battery care and weather element care might be forgotten maintenance by humans.
The birds just need to find food and not become food.
So FES is close to zero but not without fool-proof reliability."
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
FES system incorporates Reed switch(aka contactor, aka proximity sensor)
to monitor closed canopy.
Those switches brake. Broken switch prevents activating FES.
I undersood, broken Reed switch prevented use of GP14 electric
propulsion in Sebastian Kawa hard landing accident.(not a FES)
The main reason I sell almost 1000/yr of those switches in tiny market
of NJ gas stations is: they do brake.
Ryszard Krolikowski
On Sunday, April 10, 2022 at 7:07:35 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Eric,I haven't heard from anyone disputing my remarks about FES gliders, but I did hear fromI have good news for you: we have that glider already! And, it uses an FES propulsion.I'm surprised no one has disputed the claim FES gliders are (relatively) simple to
Talk to FES owners, monitor their news groups, and you'll discover what I did: the
owners are very happy, and the news groups have very little conversation. Why is that?
One dealer summed it up this way: "What's to talk about? You charge it, you fly it,
repeat as desired."
operate, very low maintenance, highly reliable motorgliders. I don't think the claim is
exaggerated, but I thought some might think so.
the owner of an FES glider, who also owns a very nice gas glider:
"The FES system is almost as reliable as a bird flapping its wings.
The need to read the manuals and follow limitations falls on a human.
So battery care and weather element care might be forgotten maintenance by humans.
The birds just need to find food and not become food.
So FES is close to zero but not without fool-proof reliability."
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
FES system incorporates Reed switch(aka contactor, aka proximity sensor) to monitor closed canopy.
Those switches brake. Broken switch prevents activating FES.
I undersood, broken Reed switch prevented use of GP14 electric propulsion in Sebastian Kawa hard landing accident.(not a FES)
The main reason I sell almost 1000/yr of those switches in tiny market of NJ gas stations is: they do brake.
Ryszard Krolikowski
FES system incorporates Reed switch(aka contactor, aka proximity sensor)
to monitor closed canopy.
Those switches brake. Broken switch prevents activating FES.
On Wed, 20 Apr 2022 12:15:19 -0700 (PDT), RW wrote:
FES system incorporates Reed switch(aka contactor, aka proximity sensor)
to monitor closed canopy.
Those switches brake. Broken switch prevents activating FES.
I undersood, broken Reed switch prevented use of GP14 electric
propulsion in Sebastian Kawa hard landing accident.(not a FES)
The main reason I sell almost 1000/yr of those switches in tiny market
of NJ gas stations is: they do brake.
Ryszard Krolikowski
Simple, CHEAP, obvious solution: add a green LED that is on when sensor
says canopy is closed and locked.
On 4/10/2022 8:37 AM, Mark Mocho wrote:
"Fumes" may not be a good choice of words for what is very hot gases. My understanding is "venting fumes" is not the certification requirement; instead, the battery box must protect the glider from the catastrophic failure of one cell, and the cell fire must not spread to other cells. Venting the gases overboard is part of the solution; a fire resistant
The pilot's fresh air vents still work normally, and if the battery
box design meets the
certification requirements, he will not need to bail out, but simply
land at an airport.
Or you can simply land directly below the place your wings or fuselage
melted. Venting fumes probably won't compensate for the heat of the
battery fire.
box is another part. There may be additional measures used to meet the certification requirements, of course.
On Sunday, April 10, 2022 at 7:07:35 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 4/10/2022 10:01 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 4/8/2022 7:18 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Trying to get this into it's own thread - 1st try failed.I'm surprised no one has disputed the claim FES gliders are (relatively) simple to
On 4/6/2022 6:23 AM, kinsell wrote:
have a nasty electrical fire if there is a short between board layers. I know this fromThe MGM HBC series controllers that were being used(not sure if they still are), can
first hand experience. The fire stops as soon as power is removed. Very stinky.
systems. If those guys can screw up, how are we going to get fool-proof zeroFWIW
UH
That's weird. MGM-Compro is sposed to be a world leader in electrical propulsion
maintenance ultra reliable electric motor gliders??
I have good news for you: we have that glider already! And, it uses an FES propulsion.
Talk to FES owners, monitor their news groups, and you'll discover what I did: the
owners are very happy, and the news groups have very little conversation. Why is that?
One dealer summed it up this way: "What's to talk about? You charge it, you fly it,
repeat as desired."
operate, very low maintenance, highly reliable motorgliders. I don't think the claim is
exaggerated, but I thought some might think so.
I haven't heard from anyone disputing my remarks about FES gliders, but I did hear from
the owner of an FES glider, who also owns a very nice gas glider:
"The FES system is almost as reliable as a bird flapping its wings.Eric,
The need to read the manuals and follow limitations falls on a human.
So battery care and weather element care might be forgotten maintenance by humans.
The birds just need to find food and not become food.
So FES is close to zero but not without fool-proof reliability."
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
FES system incorporates Reed switch(aka contactor, aka proximity sensor) to monitor closed canopy.
Those switches brake. Broken switch prevents activating FES.
I undersood, broken Reed switch prevented use of GP14 electric propulsion in Sebastian Kawa hard landing accident.(not a FES)
The main reason I sell almost 1000/yr of those switches in tiny market of NJ gas stations is: they do brake.
Ryszard Krolikowski
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