Has anyone seen any takeoff distance charts for a Pawnee towing gliders of various weights?
Lawrence Spinetta wrote:variables, grass versus paved surfaces, etc. they are all different.
Has anyone seen any takeoff distance charts for a Pawnee towing gliders of various weights?I've towed with 8 or 9 different Pawnees and I am not sure that I would trust the data if you find it. Among PA25-235s and 260s (not to mention the occasional 180hp), Hutchinson conversions, different wingtips, hopper in or hopper out, fuel load
ROY
Has anyone seen any takeoff distance charts for a Pawnee towing gliders of various weights? My glider club would appreciate any info, data, or insights. Thanks.
On Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 6:44:38 PM UTC-7, Lawrence Spinetta wrote:linda ; happy to share. L
Has anyone seen any takeoff distance charts for a Pawnee towing gliders of various weights? My glider club would appreciate any info, data, or insights. Thanks.Lawrence,
While the RAS responders get all lathered up telling you all the ways your question is wrong, let me offer you & your club info, data, and insights on Pawnee towing performance as you asked. Feel free to contact me directly at “gmail” address chism.
Has anyone seen any takeoff distance charts for a Pawnee towing gliders of various weights? My glider club would appreciate any info, data, or insights. Thanks.
Has anyone seen any takeoff distance charts for a Pawnee towing gliders of various weights? My glider club would appreciate any info, data, or insights. Thanks.
On Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 8:09:35 PM UTC-6, Roy B. wrote:variables, grass versus paved surfaces, etc. they are all different.
Lawrence Spinetta wrote:
Has anyone seen any takeoff distance charts for a Pawnee towing gliders of various weights?I've towed with 8 or 9 different Pawnees and I am not sure that I would trust the data if you find it. Among PA25-235s and 260s (not to mention the occasional 180hp), Hutchinson conversions, different wingtips, hopper in or hopper out, fuel load
ROY
And let us not forget little things like density altitude, field elevation and pilot technique.
On Friday, September 8, 2023 at 12:44:26 AM UTC-4, Linda Chism wrote:chism.linda ; happy to share. L
On Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 6:44:38 PM UTC-7, Lawrence Spinetta wrote:
Has anyone seen any takeoff distance charts for a Pawnee towing gliders of various weights? My glider club would appreciate any info, data, or insights. Thanks.Lawrence,
While the RAS responders get all lathered up telling you all the ways your question is wrong, let me offer you & your club info, data, and insights on Pawnee towing performance as you asked. Feel free to contact me directly at “gmail” address
Linda certainly know towing, she won the coveted tow pilot award for the year with a whopping 83 tows, way to go Linda. I will stick to what Roy said, no two Pawnee's are alike and the takeoff distance is a variable based on many factors includingpilot technique. OBTP, tow pilot that makes over 1200 a year and still learning.
I checked the RAS Expert Qualifications Chart and it seems you were one short for the weekend. Maybe next time.😉
Lawrence Spinetta wrote:variables, grass versus paved surfaces, etc. they are all different.
Has anyone seen any takeoff distance charts for a Pawnee towing gliders of various weights?I've towed with 8 or 9 different Pawnees and I am not sure that I would trust the data if you find it. Among PA25-235s and 260s (not to mention the occasional 180hp), Hutchinson conversions, different wingtips, hopper in or hopper out, fuel load
ROYThanks, Roy. I appreciate there are all sorts of variables. Still would appreciate any advice, insights, or even rules of thumb to keep us tow pilots safe, especially during hot temperatures.
On Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 6:44:38 PM UTC-7, Lawrence Spinetta wrote:linda ; happy to share. L
Has anyone seen any takeoff distance charts for a Pawnee towing gliders of various weights? My glider club would appreciate any info, data, or insights. Thanks.Lawrence,
While the RAS responders get all lathered up telling you all the ways your question is wrong, let me offer you & your club info, data, and insights on Pawnee towing performance as you asked. Feel free to contact me directly at “gmail” address chism.
On Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 9:44:38 PM UTC-4, Lawrence Spinetta wrote:
Has anyone seen any takeoff distance charts for a Pawnee towing gliders of various weights? My glider club would appreciate any info, data, or insights. Thanks.What is your objective?
UH
Rate of climb is important, obviously, but as a glider pilot (I'm not a tow pilot), I care most about one thing: how long does it take to get to 200 feet (preferably at no less than 60 kts) and where am I when that happens? They're related, of course,but I don't think ROC tells the whole story. Thoughts from those more experienced?
Chip Beardengood point.
"JB"
Dan,
I checked the RAS Expert Qualifications Chart and it seems you were one short for the weekend. Maybe next time.😉
Mike
Rate of climb is important, obviously, but as a glider pilot (I'm not a tow pilot), I care most about one thing: how long does it take to get to 200 feet (preferably at no less than 60 kts) and where am I when that happens? They're related, of course,but I don't think ROC tells the whole story. Thoughts from those more experienced?
Chip Bearden
"JB"
Has anyone seen any takeoff distance charts for a Pawnee towing gliders of various weights? My glider club would appreciate any info, data, or insights. Thanks.Lawrence, I will opine on this thread in an effort to inform many current and potential tow pilots of what I consider for all tow pilots to understand and react when necessary.
On Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 9:44:38 PM UTC-4, Lawrence Spinetta wrote:the fact that as a tow pilot I am cognizant of their excess weight and tow requirements.
Has anyone seen any takeoff distance charts for a Pawnee towing gliders of various weights? My glider club would appreciate any info, data, or insights. Thanks.Lawrence, I will opine on this thread in an effort to inform many current and potential tow pilots of what I consider for all tow pilots to understand and react when necessary.
#1- Is the tow plane capable of meeting the requirements to tow.
#2- What are you towing??? Weight, type of glider? There are times when I tow guys full of water and I as the tow pilot inform them that I am aware of their ballast and I inform them that I will be towing them at a bit more speed. Guess what, they love
#3- My flap setting in the Pawnee, sometimes I have a click of flaps to facilitate departure and then stay in ground effect to a needed speed then on to a positive rate of climb.next tow is lingering around the take off line you become irritated, does that affect your tow capability?
#4- Variables, wind, temp, DA,
#5- The glider pilot, who are you towing????? This is an often overlooked aspect. Is it someone that I should be concerned about or someone that I have towed many times before and I know their capabilities at that end of the rope.
#6- Is the tow pilot a glider pilot??? This may be more important than you realize, a TP that flies both ends of the rope just may have a better understanding of any situation that you may encounter.
#7- What is your mental and physical status at the time of your tow?? As a tow pilot we all have times of variable mood changes based on the current or the past tow. When it is approaching 100 degrees F and you have your butt in the hot Pawnee and the
#8- Identifying a critical situation!!!!!exercise you can practice. Personally, IMHO I think that most tow planes should be re evaluated with regard to the tow release. Have you as a tow pilot practiced a release? Practice enhances muscle memory, it may well save your life.
#9- Reaction to a critical situation?????
#10- I will call this #10 but actually it should be number 1, the RELEASE? Have you actually tried to get to the release handle in an mock emergency? Why don't you try seeing if you can get to release handle within two seconds, it may just be the best
I am sure that there are many very experienced tow pilots out there that can add many more quality points to the list, next time you get a tow from your tow pilot tell him or her thanks, your gratitude will go a long way. OBTP
On Friday, September 8, 2023 at 4:25:30 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:love the fact that as a tow pilot I am cognizant of their excess weight and tow requirements.
On Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 9:44:38 PM UTC-4, Lawrence Spinetta wrote:
Has anyone seen any takeoff distance charts for a Pawnee towing gliders of various weights? My glider club would appreciate any info, data, or insights. Thanks.Lawrence, I will opine on this thread in an effort to inform many current and potential tow pilots of what I consider for all tow pilots to understand and react when necessary.
#1- Is the tow plane capable of meeting the requirements to tow.
#2- What are you towing??? Weight, type of glider? There are times when I tow guys full of water and I as the tow pilot inform them that I am aware of their ballast and I inform them that I will be towing them at a bit more speed. Guess what, they
next tow is lingering around the take off line you become irritated, does that affect your tow capability?#3- My flap setting in the Pawnee, sometimes I have a click of flaps to facilitate departure and then stay in ground effect to a needed speed then on to a positive rate of climb.
#4- Variables, wind, temp, DA,
#5- The glider pilot, who are you towing????? This is an often overlooked aspect. Is it someone that I should be concerned about or someone that I have towed many times before and I know their capabilities at that end of the rope.
#6- Is the tow pilot a glider pilot??? This may be more important than you realize, a TP that flies both ends of the rope just may have a better understanding of any situation that you may encounter.
#7- What is your mental and physical status at the time of your tow?? As a tow pilot we all have times of variable mood changes based on the current or the past tow. When it is approaching 100 degrees F and you have your butt in the hot Pawnee and the
exercise you can practice. Personally, IMHO I think that most tow planes should be re evaluated with regard to the tow release. Have you as a tow pilot practiced a release? Practice enhances muscle memory, it may well save your life.#8- Identifying a critical situation!!!!!
#9- Reaction to a critical situation?????
#10- I will call this #10 but actually it should be number 1, the RELEASE? Have you actually tried to get to the release handle in an mock emergency? Why don't you try seeing if you can get to release handle within two seconds, it may just be the best
I am sure that there are many very experienced tow pilots out there that can add many more quality points to the list, next time you get a tow from your tow pilot tell him or her thanks, your gratitude will go a long way. OBTP
I'm still unclear what the original poster is trying to get to. Is it some kind of hard decision point where we don't tow the (fill in) 2-33 with 2 people because it is now too heavy?
There are so many variables to consider.
1- Pure tug performance- type, weight, horse power, prop, current engine condition(plugs clean and clear?)etc.
2 Tug pilot weight
3 Fuel on board
4 Surface - Grass(tall or not), soft ground, paved
5 Glider mass and drag characteristics.
6 Tug pilot technique- Soft takeoff vs "normal", best angle of climb or wait for best rate. Fast acceleration or gentle.
7 Glider pilot technique. A dragging skid can hurt more than mass. Wandering student reduces performance.
8 Temperature and dew point- density altitude
9 Elevation
10 Field slope
11 Obstructions to consider.
12. High tow vs low tow
13- Others could add more to this list
UH
On Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 9:44:38 PM UTC-4, Lawrence Spinetta wrote:
Has anyone seen any takeoff distance charts for a Pawnee towing gliders of various weights? My glider club would appreciate any info, data, or insights. Thanks.Lawrence, I will opine on this thread in an effort to inform many current and potential tow pilots of what I consider for all tow pilots to understand and react when necessary.
#1- Is the tow plane capable of meeting the requirements to tow.
#2- What are you towing??? Weight, type of glider? There are times when I tow guys full of water and I as the tow pilot inform them that I am aware of their ballast and I inform them that I will be towing them at a bit more speed. Guess what, they lovethe fact that as a tow pilot I am cognizant of their excess weight and tow requirements.
#3- My flap setting in the Pawnee, sometimes I have a click of flaps to facilitate departure and then stay in ground effect to a needed speed then on to a positive rate of climb.
#4- Variables, wind, temp, DA,
#5- The glider pilot, who are you towing????? This is an often overlooked aspect. Is it someone that I should be concerned about or someone that I have towed many times before and I know their capabilities at that end of the rope.
#6- Is the tow pilot a glider pilot??? This may be more important than you realize, a TP that flies both ends of the rope just may have a better understanding of any situation that you may encounter.
#7- What is your mental and physical status at the time of your tow?? As a tow pilot we all have times of variable mood changes based on the current or the past tow. When it is approaching 100 degrees F and you have your butt in the hot Pawnee and thenext tow is lingering around the take off line you become irritated, does that affect your tow capability?
#8- Identifying a critical situation!!!!!exercise you can practice. Personally, IMHO I think that most tow planes should be re evaluated with regard to the tow release. Have you as a tow pilot practiced a release? Practice enhances muscle memory, it may well save your life.
#9- Reaction to a critical situation?????
#10- I will call this #10 but actually it should be number 1, the RELEASE? Have you actually tried to get to the release handle in an mock emergency? Why don't you try seeing if you can get to release handle within two seconds, it may just be the best
I am sure that there are many very experienced tow pilots out there that can add many more quality points to the list, next time you get a tow from your tow pilot tell him or her thanks, your gratitude will go a long way. OBTP
On Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 9:44:38 PM UTC-4, Lawrence Spinetta wrote:I'd like a takeoff distance chart for a Pawnee towing a 2-33, 1-26, and Grob.
Has anyone seen any takeoff distance charts for a Pawnee towing gliders of various weights? My glider club would appreciate any info, data, or insights. Thanks.What is your objective?
UH
On Friday, September 8, 2023 at 3:25:30 PM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:love the fact that as a tow pilot I am cognizant of their excess weight and tow requirements.
On Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 9:44:38 PM UTC-4, Lawrence Spinetta wrote:Yes
Has anyone seen any takeoff distance charts for a Pawnee towing gliders of various weights? My glider club would appreciate any info, data, or insights. Thanks.Lawrence, I will opine on this thread in an effort to inform many current and potential tow pilots of what I consider for all tow pilots to understand and react when necessary.
#1- Is the tow plane capable of meeting the requirements to tow.
#2- What are you towing??? Weight, type of glider? There are times when I tow guys full of water and I as the tow pilot inform them that I am aware of their ballast and I inform them that I will be towing them at a bit more speed. Guess what, they
2-33, 1-26, and Grob plus various glass shipsFlaps for takeoff are an option that I use to enhance getting off the ground in a better attempt to obtain ground effect and increase speed to maintain a positive rate of climb at my desired airspeed. they are retracted at about 300 feet. Depending on
#3- My flap setting in the Pawnee, sometimes I have a click of flaps to facilitate departure and then stay in ground effect to a needed speed then on to a positive rate of climb.When do you use flaps?
the next tow is lingering around the take off line you become irritated, does that affect your tow capability?#4- Variables, wind, temp, DA,Often gets hotter than 100 deg here in Texas
#5- The glider pilot, who are you towing????? This is an often overlooked aspect. Is it someone that I should be concerned about or someone that I have towed many times before and I know their capabilities at that end of the rope.Agree
#6- Is the tow pilot a glider pilot??? This may be more important than you realize, a TP that flies both ends of the rope just may have a better understanding of any situation that you may encounter.Agree
#7- What is your mental and physical status at the time of your tow?? As a tow pilot we all have times of variable mood changes based on the current or the past tow. When it is approaching 100 degrees F and you have your butt in the hot Pawnee and
best exercise you can practice. Personally, IMHO I think that most tow planes should be re evaluated with regard to the tow release. Have you as a tow pilot practiced a release? Practice enhances muscle memory, it may well save your life.#8- Identifying a critical situation!!!!!
#9- Reaction to a critical situation?????
#10- I will call this #10 but actually it should be number 1, the RELEASE? Have you actually tried to get to the release handle in an mock emergency? Why don't you try seeing if you can get to release handle within two seconds, it may just be the
I am sure that there are many very experienced tow pilots out there that can add many more quality points to the list, next time you get a tow from your tow pilot tell him or her thanks, your gratitude will go a long way. OBTPAll good advice
There is a lot of good advice in this thread - especially for new tow pilots. If I may, I would like to add a couple of points that have not been mentioned. All have "pros" and "cons".also gets air moving over the glider ailerons earlier. But, it should only be used on a paved runway. On grass it quickly pulls up the top soil and on dirt it causes nicks in the tow plane prop. It also will cause the 2-33 tail to slam down (especially
1) There is a technique (after slack is out) of adding power with the tug brakes held on and then releasing the brakes after rpms come up. This increases the initial acceleration of both aircraft and thus somewhat shortens the take off distance. It
2) A shorter tow rope increases the takeoff margins ( by giving the tug a bit more runway to use) at the expense of a bit more drama and difficulty for the glider pilot. It also increases the dust/visibility problem for the glider pilot on dirt. I haveintentionally tied a 60' loop in a 200' rope for some marginal air retrieves. "Not for beginners".
3) Old Bob's point about familiarity with the tow rope release a very important. It should be noted that many places use 2 ropes for operations and have the tug pilot drop the rope either shortly before or immediately after landing. This solves thefamiliarity problem ( the rope is released after every tow) and it also avoids abrading the rope by dragging it on the ground. When this method is used the awaiting glider is already connected to the new rope and the tug taxis back to have that rope
I am not advocating any of the forgoing - just trying to add to a page that I think has some good information for new tow pilots in it.Roy makes some excellent points about towing, after slack takeoff is a great technique for obvious reasons, being cognizant of the rope and cycle requirements can eliminate coat and release replacement. 99.9% of my tows are done on grass and we have
ROY
There is a lot of good advice in this thread - especially for new tow pilots. If I may, I would like to add a couple of points that have not been mentioned. All have "pros" and "cons".also gets air moving over the glider ailerons earlier. But, it should only be used on a paved runway. On grass it quickly pulls up the top soil and on dirt it causes nicks in the tow plane prop. It also will cause the 2-33 tail to slam down (especially
1) There is a technique (after slack is out) of adding power with the tug brakes held on and then releasing the brakes after rpms come up. This increases the initial acceleration of both aircraft and thus somewhat shortens the take off distance. It
2) A shorter tow rope increases the takeoff margins ( by giving the tug a bit more runway to use) at the expense of a bit more drama and difficulty for the glider pilot. It also increases the dust/visibility problem for the glider pilot on dirt. I haveintentionally tied a 60' loop in a 200' rope for some marginal air retrieves. "Not for beginners".
3) Old Bob's point about familiarity with the tow rope release a very important. It should be noted that many places use 2 ropes for operations and have the tug pilot drop the rope either shortly before or immediately after landing. This solves thefamiliarity problem ( the rope is released after every tow) and it also avoids abrading the rope by dragging it on the ground. When this method is used the awaiting glider is already connected to the new rope and the tug taxis back to have that rope
I am not advocating any of the forgoing - just trying to add to a page that I think has some good information for new tow pilots in it.
ROY
On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 2:27:14 PM UTC-4, Roy B. wrote:also gets air moving over the glider ailerons earlier. But, it should only be used on a paved runway. On grass it quickly pulls up the top soil and on dirt it causes nicks in the tow plane prop. It also will cause the 2-33 tail to slam down (especially
There is a lot of good advice in this thread - especially for new tow pilots. If I may, I would like to add a couple of points that have not been mentioned. All have "pros" and "cons".
1) There is a technique (after slack is out) of adding power with the tug brakes held on and then releasing the brakes after rpms come up. This increases the initial acceleration of both aircraft and thus somewhat shortens the take off distance. It
have intentionally tied a 60' loop in a 200' rope for some marginal air retrieves. "Not for beginners".2) A shorter tow rope increases the takeoff margins ( by giving the tug a bit more runway to use) at the expense of a bit more drama and difficulty for the glider pilot. It also increases the dust/visibility problem for the glider pilot on dirt. I
familiarity problem ( the rope is released after every tow) and it also avoids abrading the rope by dragging it on the ground. When this method is used the awaiting glider is already connected to the new rope and the tug taxis back to have that rope3) Old Bob's point about familiarity with the tow rope release a very important. It should be noted that many places use 2 ropes for operations and have the tug pilot drop the rope either shortly before or immediately after landing. This solves the
the tailwheel spring and, if no spring will ultimately cause failure in the aft longerons . We have seen both. Care should be taken in this situation.I am not advocating any of the forgoing - just trying to add to a page that I think has some good information for new tow pilots in it.ROY makes a couple of useful points.
ROY
Fore newer tug pilots looking for pointers I would comment.
1)Hard brake holding while powering up can get a bit more acceleration which helps height at the end of the runway. As Roy points out this can, and almost certainly will, result in a hard tail bang on 2-33's. This will have a bad effect on the life of
2) If you think you need to shorten the rope to get out of the land out spot, go get the trailer. Short ropes are a big contributor to the possibility of a tug upset.
UH
On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 9:02:55 AM UTC-4, Hank Nixon wrote:also gets air moving over the glider ailerons earlier. But, it should only be used on a paved runway. On grass it quickly pulls up the top soil and on dirt it causes nicks in the tow plane prop. It also will cause the 2-33 tail to slam down (especially
On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 2:27:14 PM UTC-4, Roy B. wrote:
There is a lot of good advice in this thread - especially for new tow pilots. If I may, I would like to add a couple of points that have not been mentioned. All have "pros" and "cons".
1) There is a technique (after slack is out) of adding power with the tug brakes held on and then releasing the brakes after rpms come up. This increases the initial acceleration of both aircraft and thus somewhat shortens the take off distance. It
have intentionally tied a 60' loop in a 200' rope for some marginal air retrieves. "Not for beginners".2) A shorter tow rope increases the takeoff margins ( by giving the tug a bit more runway to use) at the expense of a bit more drama and difficulty for the glider pilot. It also increases the dust/visibility problem for the glider pilot on dirt. I
familiarity problem ( the rope is released after every tow) and it also avoids abrading the rope by dragging it on the ground. When this method is used the awaiting glider is already connected to the new rope and the tug taxis back to have that rope3) Old Bob's point about familiarity with the tow rope release a very important. It should be noted that many places use 2 ropes for operations and have the tug pilot drop the rope either shortly before or immediately after landing. This solves the
of the tailwheel spring and, if no spring will ultimately cause failure in the aft longerons . We have seen both. Care should be taken in this situation.I am not advocating any of the forgoing - just trying to add to a page that I think has some good information for new tow pilots in it.ROY makes a couple of useful points.
ROY
Fore newer tug pilots looking for pointers I would comment.
1)Hard brake holding while powering up can get a bit more acceleration which helps height at the end of the runway. As Roy points out this can, and almost certainly will, result in a hard tail bang on 2-33's. This will have a bad effect on the life
they should RELEASE IMMEDIATELY. Not every instructor is doing an adequate job of driving that point home. It's YOUR life. I would also prohibit any student at any level from having their cell phone with them on solo. Too much temptation to do a video2) If you think you need to shorten the rope to get out of the land out spot, go get the trailer. Short ropes are a big contributor to the possibility of a tug upset.Some very good information and it is laudable that any facility is proactively trying to protect their tow pilots. I would add one thing. The tow pilot should be proactive in insuring that each new student know that if they lose sight of the tow plane
UH
"DON'T KILL THE TOW PILOT," should be the mantra of every Gliderport. Of course saying that might inflame the panties and easily offended sensibilities of some, but F 'em. The tow pilot might do well to remind each "instructor" of this pointconsidering the last two tow pilots deaths were at the hands of an instructor level pilot to some degree. No GoPROs and no reaching for the canopy on tow, the life you save may be the tow pilots.
Walt ConnellyWalt, your remarks are right on!!!! Many instructors do not fly both ends of the rope, nothing wrong with that and on the other hand many tow pilots don't instruct, we are smarter than that. Your remarks in reference to my tow release have been much
Former Tow Pilot
On Tuesday, September 12, 2023 at 8:20:16 AM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:It also gets air moving over the glider ailerons earlier. But, it should only be used on a paved runway. On grass it quickly pulls up the top soil and on dirt it causes nicks in the tow plane prop. It also will cause the 2-33 tail to slam down (
On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 9:02:55 AM UTC-4, Hank Nixon wrote:
On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 2:27:14 PM UTC-4, Roy B. wrote:
There is a lot of good advice in this thread - especially for new tow pilots. If I may, I would like to add a couple of points that have not been mentioned. All have "pros" and "cons".
1) There is a technique (after slack is out) of adding power with the tug brakes held on and then releasing the brakes after rpms come up. This increases the initial acceleration of both aircraft and thus somewhat shortens the take off distance.
I have intentionally tied a 60' loop in a 200' rope for some marginal air retrieves. "Not for beginners".2) A shorter tow rope increases the takeoff margins ( by giving the tug a bit more runway to use) at the expense of a bit more drama and difficulty for the glider pilot. It also increases the dust/visibility problem for the glider pilot on dirt.
the familiarity problem ( the rope is released after every tow) and it also avoids abrading the rope by dragging it on the ground. When this method is used the awaiting glider is already connected to the new rope and the tug taxis back to have that rope3) Old Bob's point about familiarity with the tow rope release a very important. It should be noted that many places use 2 ropes for operations and have the tug pilot drop the rope either shortly before or immediately after landing. This solves
of the tailwheel spring and, if no spring will ultimately cause failure in the aft longerons . We have seen both. Care should be taken in this situation.I am not advocating any of the forgoing - just trying to add to a page that I think has some good information for new tow pilots in it.ROY makes a couple of useful points.
ROY
Fore newer tug pilots looking for pointers I would comment.
1)Hard brake holding while powering up can get a bit more acceleration which helps height at the end of the runway. As Roy points out this can, and almost certainly will, result in a hard tail bang on 2-33's. This will have a bad effect on the life
plane they should RELEASE IMMEDIATELY. Not every instructor is doing an adequate job of driving that point home. It's YOUR life. I would also prohibit any student at any level from having their cell phone with them on solo. Too much temptation to do a2) If you think you need to shorten the rope to get out of the land out spot, go get the trailer. Short ropes are a big contributor to the possibility of a tug upset.Some very good information and it is laudable that any facility is proactively trying to protect their tow pilots. I would add one thing. The tow pilot should be proactive in insuring that each new student know that if they lose sight of the tow
UH
considering the last two tow pilots deaths were at the hands of an instructor level pilot to some degree. No GoPROs and no reaching for the canopy on tow, the life you save may be the tow pilots."DON'T KILL THE TOW PILOT," should be the mantra of every Gliderport. Of course saying that might inflame the panties and easily offended sensibilities of some, but F 'em. The tow pilot might do well to remind each "instructor" of this point
appreciated, nothing like enchasing the safety of the tow pilot. Your statement about , "DON'T KILL THE TOW PILOT", should be one of the first directives driven into the mind of every student.Walt ConnellyWalt, your remarks are right on!!!! Many instructors do not fly both ends of the rope, nothing wrong with that and on the other hand many tow pilots don't instruct, we are smarter than that. Your remarks in reference to my tow release have been much
Former Tow Pilot
After a few thousand tows I have decided to pretty much cut back and enjoy my glider flying, and if you are ever down this way hop in the Pawnee and give be a tow, I want to give all these motorglider guys something to shoot for. OBTP
On Tuesday, September 12, 2023 at 4:07:39 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:It also gets air moving over the glider ailerons earlier. But, it should only be used on a paved runway. On grass it quickly pulls up the top soil and on dirt it causes nicks in the tow plane prop. It also will cause the 2-33 tail to slam down (
On Tuesday, September 12, 2023 at 8:20:16 AM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 9:02:55 AM UTC-4, Hank Nixon wrote:
On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 2:27:14 PM UTC-4, Roy B. wrote:
There is a lot of good advice in this thread - especially for new tow pilots. If I may, I would like to add a couple of points that have not been mentioned. All have "pros" and "cons".
1) There is a technique (after slack is out) of adding power with the tug brakes held on and then releasing the brakes after rpms come up. This increases the initial acceleration of both aircraft and thus somewhat shortens the take off distance.
I have intentionally tied a 60' loop in a 200' rope for some marginal air retrieves. "Not for beginners".2) A shorter tow rope increases the takeoff margins ( by giving the tug a bit more runway to use) at the expense of a bit more drama and difficulty for the glider pilot. It also increases the dust/visibility problem for the glider pilot on dirt.
the familiarity problem ( the rope is released after every tow) and it also avoids abrading the rope by dragging it on the ground. When this method is used the awaiting glider is already connected to the new rope and the tug taxis back to have that rope3) Old Bob's point about familiarity with the tow rope release a very important. It should be noted that many places use 2 ropes for operations and have the tug pilot drop the rope either shortly before or immediately after landing. This solves
life of the tailwheel spring and, if no spring will ultimately cause failure in the aft longerons . We have seen both. Care should be taken in this situation.I am not advocating any of the forgoing - just trying to add to a page that I think has some good information for new tow pilots in it.ROY makes a couple of useful points.
ROY
Fore newer tug pilots looking for pointers I would comment.
1)Hard brake holding while powering up can get a bit more acceleration which helps height at the end of the runway. As Roy points out this can, and almost certainly will, result in a hard tail bang on 2-33's. This will have a bad effect on the
plane they should RELEASE IMMEDIATELY. Not every instructor is doing an adequate job of driving that point home. It's YOUR life. I would also prohibit any student at any level from having their cell phone with them on solo. Too much temptation to do a2) If you think you need to shorten the rope to get out of the land out spot, go get the trailer. Short ropes are a big contributor to the possibility of a tug upset.Some very good information and it is laudable that any facility is proactively trying to protect their tow pilots. I would add one thing. The tow pilot should be proactive in insuring that each new student know that if they lose sight of the tow
UH
considering the last two tow pilots deaths were at the hands of an instructor level pilot to some degree. No GoPROs and no reaching for the canopy on tow, the life you save may be the tow pilots."DON'T KILL THE TOW PILOT," should be the mantra of every Gliderport. Of course saying that might inflame the panties and easily offended sensibilities of some, but F 'em. The tow pilot might do well to remind each "instructor" of this point
appreciated, nothing like enchasing the safety of the tow pilot. Your statement about , "DON'T KILL THE TOW PILOT", should be one of the first directives driven into the mind of every student.Walt ConnellyWalt, your remarks are right on!!!! Many instructors do not fly both ends of the rope, nothing wrong with that and on the other hand many tow pilots don't instruct, we are smarter than that. Your remarks in reference to my tow release have been much
Former Tow Pilot
didn't instruct because I knew I didn't have the proper personality and I find many working instructors who don't either.After a few thousand tows I have decided to pretty much cut back and enjoy my glider flying, and if you are ever down this way hop in the Pawnee and give be a tow, I want to give all these motorglider guys something to shoot for. OBTPAin't gonna happen anytime soon Bob, I'm current only in a Helicopter but thanks for the invite. I lived thru 7000 tows and almost died in one of my last. I like not having to get out of bed until I damn well please every day, retirement is nice. I
Walt Connelly
FORMER tow pilot.
On Saturday, September 16, 2023 at 7:03:45 AM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:distance. It also gets air moving over the glider ailerons earlier. But, it should only be used on a paved runway. On grass it quickly pulls up the top soil and on dirt it causes nicks in the tow plane prop. It also will cause the 2-33 tail to slam down (
On Tuesday, September 12, 2023 at 4:07:39 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Tuesday, September 12, 2023 at 8:20:16 AM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 9:02:55 AM UTC-4, Hank Nixon wrote:
On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 2:27:14 PM UTC-4, Roy B. wrote:
There is a lot of good advice in this thread - especially for new tow pilots. If I may, I would like to add a couple of points that have not been mentioned. All have "pros" and "cons".
1) There is a technique (after slack is out) of adding power with the tug brakes held on and then releasing the brakes after rpms come up. This increases the initial acceleration of both aircraft and thus somewhat shortens the take off
dirt. I have intentionally tied a 60' loop in a 200' rope for some marginal air retrieves. "Not for beginners".2) A shorter tow rope increases the takeoff margins ( by giving the tug a bit more runway to use) at the expense of a bit more drama and difficulty for the glider pilot. It also increases the dust/visibility problem for the glider pilot on
solves the familiarity problem ( the rope is released after every tow) and it also avoids abrading the rope by dragging it on the ground. When this method is used the awaiting glider is already connected to the new rope and the tug taxis back to have3) Old Bob's point about familiarity with the tow rope release a very important. It should be noted that many places use 2 ropes for operations and have the tug pilot drop the rope either shortly before or immediately after landing. This
life of the tailwheel spring and, if no spring will ultimately cause failure in the aft longerons . We have seen both. Care should be taken in this situation.I am not advocating any of the forgoing - just trying to add to a page that I think has some good information for new tow pilots in it.ROY makes a couple of useful points.
ROY
Fore newer tug pilots looking for pointers I would comment.
1)Hard brake holding while powering up can get a bit more acceleration which helps height at the end of the runway. As Roy points out this can, and almost certainly will, result in a hard tail bang on 2-33's. This will have a bad effect on the
plane they should RELEASE IMMEDIATELY. Not every instructor is doing an adequate job of driving that point home. It's YOUR life. I would also prohibit any student at any level from having their cell phone with them on solo. Too much temptation to do a2) If you think you need to shorten the rope to get out of the land out spot, go get the trailer. Short ropes are a big contributor to the possibility of a tug upset.Some very good information and it is laudable that any facility is proactively trying to protect their tow pilots. I would add one thing. The tow pilot should be proactive in insuring that each new student know that if they lose sight of the tow
UH
considering the last two tow pilots deaths were at the hands of an instructor level pilot to some degree. No GoPROs and no reaching for the canopy on tow, the life you save may be the tow pilots."DON'T KILL THE TOW PILOT," should be the mantra of every Gliderport. Of course saying that might inflame the panties and easily offended sensibilities of some, but F 'em. The tow pilot might do well to remind each "instructor" of this point
much appreciated, nothing like enchasing the safety of the tow pilot. Your statement about , "DON'T KILL THE TOW PILOT", should be one of the first directives driven into the mind of every student.Walt ConnellyWalt, your remarks are right on!!!! Many instructors do not fly both ends of the rope, nothing wrong with that and on the other hand many tow pilots don't instruct, we are smarter than that. Your remarks in reference to my tow release have been
Former Tow Pilot
didn't instruct because I knew I didn't have the proper personality and I find many working instructors who don't either.After a few thousand tows I have decided to pretty much cut back and enjoy my glider flying, and if you are ever down this way hop in the Pawnee and give be a tow, I want to give all these motorglider guys something to shoot for. OBTPAin't gonna happen anytime soon Bob, I'm current only in a Helicopter but thanks for the invite. I lived thru 7000 tows and almost died in one of my last. I like not having to get out of bed until I damn well please every day, retirement is nice. I
the data (UGH, that is a lot of work!). Then, you have to find a competent statistician to do the analysis.Walt ConnellyI am not a tow pilot and never will be a tow pilot, but what I read here is either:
FORMER tow pilot.
1. A pissing contest to prove the others don't know shit.
or
2. A multi-dimensional data analysis problem.
In the first case you just ignore the poster and move on; in the second case (in my former professional life) we would engage a statistician to analyze all of the relevant data to build a workable scientific model. The first part of this is gathering
I don't think anybody here will get past the first part.Since you do NOT tow, and want to opine on the topic in which you know nothing about that makes you an untracrepidarian in a profound way. Tow pilots like myself and others who have done thousands of tows and are much more qualified to make professional
Tom 2G
On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 1:25:11 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote:distance. It also gets air moving over the glider ailerons earlier. But, it should only be used on a paved runway. On grass it quickly pulls up the top soil and on dirt it causes nicks in the tow plane prop. It also will cause the 2-33 tail to slam down (
On Saturday, September 16, 2023 at 7:03:45 AM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Tuesday, September 12, 2023 at 4:07:39 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Tuesday, September 12, 2023 at 8:20:16 AM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 9:02:55 AM UTC-4, Hank Nixon wrote:
On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 2:27:14 PM UTC-4, Roy B. wrote:
There is a lot of good advice in this thread - especially for new tow pilots. If I may, I would like to add a couple of points that have not been mentioned. All have "pros" and "cons".
1) There is a technique (after slack is out) of adding power with the tug brakes held on and then releasing the brakes after rpms come up. This increases the initial acceleration of both aircraft and thus somewhat shortens the take off
dirt. I have intentionally tied a 60' loop in a 200' rope for some marginal air retrieves. "Not for beginners".2) A shorter tow rope increases the takeoff margins ( by giving the tug a bit more runway to use) at the expense of a bit more drama and difficulty for the glider pilot. It also increases the dust/visibility problem for the glider pilot on
solves the familiarity problem ( the rope is released after every tow) and it also avoids abrading the rope by dragging it on the ground. When this method is used the awaiting glider is already connected to the new rope and the tug taxis back to have3) Old Bob's point about familiarity with the tow rope release a very important. It should be noted that many places use 2 ropes for operations and have the tug pilot drop the rope either shortly before or immediately after landing. This
the life of the tailwheel spring and, if no spring will ultimately cause failure in the aft longerons . We have seen both. Care should be taken in this situation.I am not advocating any of the forgoing - just trying to add to a page that I think has some good information for new tow pilots in it.ROY makes a couple of useful points.
ROY
Fore newer tug pilots looking for pointers I would comment.
1)Hard brake holding while powering up can get a bit more acceleration which helps height at the end of the runway. As Roy points out this can, and almost certainly will, result in a hard tail bang on 2-33's. This will have a bad effect on
tow plane they should RELEASE IMMEDIATELY. Not every instructor is doing an adequate job of driving that point home. It's YOUR life. I would also prohibit any student at any level from having their cell phone with them on solo. Too much temptation to do2) If you think you need to shorten the rope to get out of the land out spot, go get the trailer. Short ropes are a big contributor to the possibility of a tug upset.Some very good information and it is laudable that any facility is proactively trying to protect their tow pilots. I would add one thing. The tow pilot should be proactive in insuring that each new student know that if they lose sight of the
UH
considering the last two tow pilots deaths were at the hands of an instructor level pilot to some degree. No GoPROs and no reaching for the canopy on tow, the life you save may be the tow pilots."DON'T KILL THE TOW PILOT," should be the mantra of every Gliderport. Of course saying that might inflame the panties and easily offended sensibilities of some, but F 'em. The tow pilot might do well to remind each "instructor" of this point
much appreciated, nothing like enchasing the safety of the tow pilot. Your statement about , "DON'T KILL THE TOW PILOT", should be one of the first directives driven into the mind of every student.Walt ConnellyWalt, your remarks are right on!!!! Many instructors do not fly both ends of the rope, nothing wrong with that and on the other hand many tow pilots don't instruct, we are smarter than that. Your remarks in reference to my tow release have been
Former Tow Pilot
didn't instruct because I knew I didn't have the proper personality and I find many working instructors who don't either.After a few thousand tows I have decided to pretty much cut back and enjoy my glider flying, and if you are ever down this way hop in the Pawnee and give be a tow, I want to give all these motorglider guys something to shoot for. OBTPAin't gonna happen anytime soon Bob, I'm current only in a Helicopter but thanks for the invite. I lived thru 7000 tows and almost died in one of my last. I like not having to get out of bed until I damn well please every day, retirement is nice. I
the data (UGH, that is a lot of work!). Then, you have to find a competent statistician to do the analysis.Walt ConnellyI am not a tow pilot and never will be a tow pilot, but what I read here is either:
FORMER tow pilot.
1. A pissing contest to prove the others don't know shit.
or
2. A multi-dimensional data analysis problem.
In the first case you just ignore the poster and move on; in the second case (in my former professional life) we would engage a statistician to analyze all of the relevant data to build a workable scientific model. The first part of this is gathering
professional remarks and develop guidelines on the subject.I don't think anybody here will get past the first part.
Tom 2GSince you do NOT tow, and want to opine on the topic in which you know nothing about that makes you an untracrepidarian in a profound way. Tow pilots like myself and others who have done thousands of tows and are much more qualified to make
My suggestion to you would be for you to stick to something that you are at least qualified to comment on. Most people that cannot stay behind the tow plane go straight to motorgliding, looks like you found the perfect home. Old Bob, The PuristBeing towed is a lot easier than launching in a motorglider, and arguably safer (at least for the glider pilot, but not the tow pilot). When I was instructing, it only took a few flights for a student to learn to fly the whole tow. I doubt I could teach
On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 3:43:09 AM UTC-7, rec.aviation.soaring wrote:distance. It also gets air moving over the glider ailerons earlier. But, it should only be used on a paved runway. On grass it quickly pulls up the top soil and on dirt it causes nicks in the tow plane prop. It also will cause the 2-33 tail to slam down (
On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 1:25:11 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
On Saturday, September 16, 2023 at 7:03:45 AM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Tuesday, September 12, 2023 at 4:07:39 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Tuesday, September 12, 2023 at 8:20:16 AM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 9:02:55 AM UTC-4, Hank Nixon wrote:
On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 2:27:14 PM UTC-4, Roy B. wrote:
There is a lot of good advice in this thread - especially for new tow pilots. If I may, I would like to add a couple of points that have not been mentioned. All have "pros" and "cons".
1) There is a technique (after slack is out) of adding power with the tug brakes held on and then releasing the brakes after rpms come up. This increases the initial acceleration of both aircraft and thus somewhat shortens the take off
on dirt. I have intentionally tied a 60' loop in a 200' rope for some marginal air retrieves. "Not for beginners".2) A shorter tow rope increases the takeoff margins ( by giving the tug a bit more runway to use) at the expense of a bit more drama and difficulty for the glider pilot. It also increases the dust/visibility problem for the glider pilot
solves the familiarity problem ( the rope is released after every tow) and it also avoids abrading the rope by dragging it on the ground. When this method is used the awaiting glider is already connected to the new rope and the tug taxis back to have3) Old Bob's point about familiarity with the tow rope release a very important. It should be noted that many places use 2 ropes for operations and have the tug pilot drop the rope either shortly before or immediately after landing. This
the life of the tailwheel spring and, if no spring will ultimately cause failure in the aft longerons . We have seen both. Care should be taken in this situation.I am not advocating any of the forgoing - just trying to add to a page that I think has some good information for new tow pilots in it.ROY makes a couple of useful points.
ROY
Fore newer tug pilots looking for pointers I would comment. 1)Hard brake holding while powering up can get a bit more acceleration which helps height at the end of the runway. As Roy points out this can, and almost certainly will, result in a hard tail bang on 2-33's. This will have a bad effect on
tow plane they should RELEASE IMMEDIATELY. Not every instructor is doing an adequate job of driving that point home. It's YOUR life. I would also prohibit any student at any level from having their cell phone with them on solo. Too much temptation to do2) If you think you need to shorten the rope to get out of the land out spot, go get the trailer. Short ropes are a big contributor to the possibility of a tug upset.Some very good information and it is laudable that any facility is proactively trying to protect their tow pilots. I would add one thing. The tow pilot should be proactive in insuring that each new student know that if they lose sight of the
UH
considering the last two tow pilots deaths were at the hands of an instructor level pilot to some degree. No GoPROs and no reaching for the canopy on tow, the life you save may be the tow pilots."DON'T KILL THE TOW PILOT," should be the mantra of every Gliderport. Of course saying that might inflame the panties and easily offended sensibilities of some, but F 'em. The tow pilot might do well to remind each "instructor" of this point
much appreciated, nothing like enchasing the safety of the tow pilot. Your statement about , "DON'T KILL THE TOW PILOT", should be one of the first directives driven into the mind of every student.Walt ConnellyWalt, your remarks are right on!!!! Many instructors do not fly both ends of the rope, nothing wrong with that and on the other hand many tow pilots don't instruct, we are smarter than that. Your remarks in reference to my tow release have been
Former Tow Pilot
I didn't instruct because I knew I didn't have the proper personality and I find many working instructors who don't either.After a few thousand tows I have decided to pretty much cut back and enjoy my glider flying, and if you are ever down this way hop in the Pawnee and give be a tow, I want to give all these motorglider guys something to shoot for. OBTPAin't gonna happen anytime soon Bob, I'm current only in a Helicopter but thanks for the invite. I lived thru 7000 tows and almost died in one of my last. I like not having to get out of bed until I damn well please every day, retirement is nice.
gathering the data (UGH, that is a lot of work!). Then, you have to find a competent statistician to do the analysis.Walt ConnellyI am not a tow pilot and never will be a tow pilot, but what I read here is either:
FORMER tow pilot.
1. A pissing contest to prove the others don't know shit.
or
2. A multi-dimensional data analysis problem.
In the first case you just ignore the poster and move on; in the second case (in my former professional life) we would engage a statistician to analyze all of the relevant data to build a workable scientific model. The first part of this is
professional remarks and develop guidelines on the subject.I don't think anybody here will get past the first part.
Tom 2GSince you do NOT tow, and want to opine on the topic in which you know nothing about that makes you an untracrepidarian in a profound way. Tow pilots like myself and others who have done thousands of tows and are much more qualified to make
teach a student to fly a self-launch as quickly. It'd be fun to try, though. Please read my "A Guide to Operating Self-launching Sailplanes" for a detailed explanation.My suggestion to you would be for you to stick to something that you are at least qualified to comment on. Most people that cannot stay behind the tow plane go straight to motorgliding, looks like you found the perfect home. Old Bob, The PuristBeing towed is a lot easier than launching in a motorglider, and arguably safer (at least for the glider pilot, but not the tow pilot). When I was instructing, it only took a few flights for a student to learn to fly the whole tow. I doubt I could
On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 9:45:27 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:distance. It also gets air moving over the glider ailerons earlier. But, it should only be used on a paved runway. On grass it quickly pulls up the top soil and on dirt it causes nicks in the tow plane prop. It also will cause the 2-33 tail to slam down (
On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 3:43:09 AM UTC-7, rec.aviation.soaring wrote:
On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 1:25:11 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
On Saturday, September 16, 2023 at 7:03:45 AM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Tuesday, September 12, 2023 at 4:07:39 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Tuesday, September 12, 2023 at 8:20:16 AM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 9:02:55 AM UTC-4, Hank Nixon wrote:
On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 2:27:14 PM UTC-4, Roy B. wrote:
There is a lot of good advice in this thread - especially for new tow pilots. If I may, I would like to add a couple of points that have not been mentioned. All have "pros" and "cons".
1) There is a technique (after slack is out) of adding power with the tug brakes held on and then releasing the brakes after rpms come up. This increases the initial acceleration of both aircraft and thus somewhat shortens the take off
on dirt. I have intentionally tied a 60' loop in a 200' rope for some marginal air retrieves. "Not for beginners".2) A shorter tow rope increases the takeoff margins ( by giving the tug a bit more runway to use) at the expense of a bit more drama and difficulty for the glider pilot. It also increases the dust/visibility problem for the glider pilot
This solves the familiarity problem ( the rope is released after every tow) and it also avoids abrading the rope by dragging it on the ground. When this method is used the awaiting glider is already connected to the new rope and the tug taxis back to3) Old Bob's point about familiarity with the tow rope release a very important. It should be noted that many places use 2 ropes for operations and have the tug pilot drop the rope either shortly before or immediately after landing.
on the life of the tailwheel spring and, if no spring will ultimately cause failure in the aft longerons . We have seen both. Care should be taken in this situation.I am not advocating any of the forgoing - just trying to add to a page that I think has some good information for new tow pilots in it.ROY makes a couple of useful points.
ROY
Fore newer tug pilots looking for pointers I would comment. 1)Hard brake holding while powering up can get a bit more acceleration which helps height at the end of the runway. As Roy points out this can, and almost certainly will, result in a hard tail bang on 2-33's. This will have a bad effect
the tow plane they should RELEASE IMMEDIATELY. Not every instructor is doing an adequate job of driving that point home. It's YOUR life. I would also prohibit any student at any level from having their cell phone with them on solo. Too much temptation to2) If you think you need to shorten the rope to get out of the land out spot, go get the trailer. Short ropes are a big contributor to the possibility of a tug upset.Some very good information and it is laudable that any facility is proactively trying to protect their tow pilots. I would add one thing. The tow pilot should be proactive in insuring that each new student know that if they lose sight of
UH
point considering the last two tow pilots deaths were at the hands of an instructor level pilot to some degree. No GoPROs and no reaching for the canopy on tow, the life you save may be the tow pilots."DON'T KILL THE TOW PILOT," should be the mantra of every Gliderport. Of course saying that might inflame the panties and easily offended sensibilities of some, but F 'em. The tow pilot might do well to remind each "instructor" of this
been much appreciated, nothing like enchasing the safety of the tow pilot. Your statement about , "DON'T KILL THE TOW PILOT", should be one of the first directives driven into the mind of every student.Walt ConnellyWalt, your remarks are right on!!!! Many instructors do not fly both ends of the rope, nothing wrong with that and on the other hand many tow pilots don't instruct, we are smarter than that. Your remarks in reference to my tow release have
Former Tow Pilot
nice. I didn't instruct because I knew I didn't have the proper personality and I find many working instructors who don't either.After a few thousand tows I have decided to pretty much cut back and enjoy my glider flying, and if you are ever down this way hop in the Pawnee and give be a tow, I want to give all these motorglider guys something to shoot for. OBTPAin't gonna happen anytime soon Bob, I'm current only in a Helicopter but thanks for the invite. I lived thru 7000 tows and almost died in one of my last. I like not having to get out of bed until I damn well please every day, retirement is
gathering the data (UGH, that is a lot of work!). Then, you have to find a competent statistician to do the analysis.Walt ConnellyI am not a tow pilot and never will be a tow pilot, but what I read here is either:
FORMER tow pilot.
1. A pissing contest to prove the others don't know shit.
or
2. A multi-dimensional data analysis problem.
In the first case you just ignore the poster and move on; in the second case (in my former professional life) we would engage a statistician to analyze all of the relevant data to build a workable scientific model. The first part of this is
professional remarks and develop guidelines on the subject.I don't think anybody here will get past the first part.
Tom 2GSince you do NOT tow, and want to opine on the topic in which you know nothing about that makes you an untracrepidarian in a profound way. Tow pilots like myself and others who have done thousands of tows and are much more qualified to make
teach a student to fly a self-launch as quickly. It'd be fun to try, though. Please read my "A Guide to Operating Self-launching Sailplanes" for a detailed explanation.My suggestion to you would be for you to stick to something that you are at least qualified to comment on. Most people that cannot stay behind the tow plane go straight to motorgliding, looks like you found the perfect home. Old Bob, The PuristBeing towed is a lot easier than launching in a motorglider, and arguably safer (at least for the glider pilot, but not the tow pilot). When I was instructing, it only took a few flights for a student to learn to fly the whole tow. I doubt I could
Eric, that last comment really made me laugh, I find it laughable to compare self launching to staying behind the tow plane in a pure glider. I make over a thousand tows a year, about 75% or more are training flights and it takes more than just a fewflights to teach someone how to stay behind the tow plane. Old Bob, The Purist I thought you said you didn't instruct? Or is that what the instructors in your club tell you? Anyway, my students were not ready to solo or to handle tow emergencies after a few flights, but it didn't take them long to learn towing basics, which are...
On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 12:42:39 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:off distance. It also gets air moving over the glider ailerons earlier. But, it should only be used on a paved runway. On grass it quickly pulls up the top soil and on dirt it causes nicks in the tow plane prop. It also will cause the 2-33 tail to slam
On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 9:45:27 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 3:43:09 AM UTC-7, rec.aviation.soaring wrote:
On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 1:25:11 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
On Saturday, September 16, 2023 at 7:03:45 AM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Tuesday, September 12, 2023 at 4:07:39 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Tuesday, September 12, 2023 at 8:20:16 AM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 9:02:55 AM UTC-4, Hank Nixon wrote:
On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 2:27:14 PM UTC-4, Roy B. wrote:
There is a lot of good advice in this thread - especially for new tow pilots. If I may, I would like to add a couple of points that have not been mentioned. All have "pros" and "cons".
1) There is a technique (after slack is out) of adding power with the tug brakes held on and then releasing the brakes after rpms come up. This increases the initial acceleration of both aircraft and thus somewhat shortens the take
pilot on dirt. I have intentionally tied a 60' loop in a 200' rope for some marginal air retrieves. "Not for beginners".2) A shorter tow rope increases the takeoff margins ( by giving the tug a bit more runway to use) at the expense of a bit more drama and difficulty for the glider pilot. It also increases the dust/visibility problem for the glider
This solves the familiarity problem ( the rope is released after every tow) and it also avoids abrading the rope by dragging it on the ground. When this method is used the awaiting glider is already connected to the new rope and the tug taxis back to3) Old Bob's point about familiarity with the tow rope release a very important. It should be noted that many places use 2 ropes for operations and have the tug pilot drop the rope either shortly before or immediately after landing.
on the life of the tailwheel spring and, if no spring will ultimately cause failure in the aft longerons . We have seen both. Care should be taken in this situation.I am not advocating any of the forgoing - just trying to add to a page that I think has some good information for new tow pilots in it.ROY makes a couple of useful points.
ROY
Fore newer tug pilots looking for pointers I would comment. 1)Hard brake holding while powering up can get a bit more acceleration which helps height at the end of the runway. As Roy points out this can, and almost certainly will, result in a hard tail bang on 2-33's. This will have a bad effect
the tow plane they should RELEASE IMMEDIATELY. Not every instructor is doing an adequate job of driving that point home. It's YOUR life. I would also prohibit any student at any level from having their cell phone with them on solo. Too much temptation to2) If you think you need to shorten the rope to get out of the land out spot, go get the trailer. Short ropes are a big contributor to the possibility of a tug upset.Some very good information and it is laudable that any facility is proactively trying to protect their tow pilots. I would add one thing. The tow pilot should be proactive in insuring that each new student know that if they lose sight of
UH
point considering the last two tow pilots deaths were at the hands of an instructor level pilot to some degree. No GoPROs and no reaching for the canopy on tow, the life you save may be the tow pilots."DON'T KILL THE TOW PILOT," should be the mantra of every Gliderport. Of course saying that might inflame the panties and easily offended sensibilities of some, but F 'em. The tow pilot might do well to remind each "instructor" of this
been much appreciated, nothing like enchasing the safety of the tow pilot. Your statement about , "DON'T KILL THE TOW PILOT", should be one of the first directives driven into the mind of every student.Walt ConnellyWalt, your remarks are right on!!!! Many instructors do not fly both ends of the rope, nothing wrong with that and on the other hand many tow pilots don't instruct, we are smarter than that. Your remarks in reference to my tow release have
Former Tow Pilot
nice. I didn't instruct because I knew I didn't have the proper personality and I find many working instructors who don't either.After a few thousand tows I have decided to pretty much cut back and enjoy my glider flying, and if you are ever down this way hop in the Pawnee and give be a tow, I want to give all these motorglider guys something to shoot for. OBTPAin't gonna happen anytime soon Bob, I'm current only in a Helicopter but thanks for the invite. I lived thru 7000 tows and almost died in one of my last. I like not having to get out of bed until I damn well please every day, retirement is
gathering the data (UGH, that is a lot of work!). Then, you have to find a competent statistician to do the analysis.Walt ConnellyI am not a tow pilot and never will be a tow pilot, but what I read here is either:
FORMER tow pilot.
1. A pissing contest to prove the others don't know shit.
or
2. A multi-dimensional data analysis problem.
In the first case you just ignore the poster and move on; in the second case (in my former professional life) we would engage a statistician to analyze all of the relevant data to build a workable scientific model. The first part of this is
professional remarks and develop guidelines on the subject.I don't think anybody here will get past the first part.
Tom 2GSince you do NOT tow, and want to opine on the topic in which you know nothing about that makes you an untracrepidarian in a profound way. Tow pilots like myself and others who have done thousands of tows and are much more qualified to make
teach a student to fly a self-launch as quickly. It'd be fun to try, though. Please read my "A Guide to Operating Self-launching Sailplanes" for a detailed explanation.My suggestion to you would be for you to stick to something that you are at least qualified to comment on. Most people that cannot stay behind the tow plane go straight to motorgliding, looks like you found the perfect home. Old Bob, The PuristBeing towed is a lot easier than launching in a motorglider, and arguably safer (at least for the glider pilot, but not the tow pilot). When I was instructing, it only took a few flights for a student to learn to fly the whole tow. I doubt I could
flights to teach someone how to stay behind the tow plane. Old Bob, The PuristEric, that last comment really made me laugh, I find it laughable to compare self launching to staying behind the tow plane in a pure glider. I make over a thousand tows a year, about 75% or more are training flights and it takes more than just a few
I thought you said you didn't instruct? Or is that what the instructors in your club tell you? Anyway, my students were not ready to solo or to handle tow emergencies after a few flights, but it didn't take them long to learn towing basics, which are...
First things First: The glider responds slowly, so move the stick deliberately. Please don't wiggle it all over the place!
Second, the BIG SECRET: If you hold the stick approximately centered, the glider will settle down in about the right place (you are not balancing a broom on the palm of your hand - it's stable system if you give it a chance)
Then, point the glider at the tow plane...
- use the ailerons to keep the wing parallel to the tow plane wing
- use the elevator to position the tow plane on the horizon
- use the rudder to point the nose at the tow plane
How long does it take Treasure Coast students to learn to point the glider at the tow plane?
On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 12:42:39 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:off distance. It also gets air moving over the glider ailerons earlier. But, it should only be used on a paved runway. On grass it quickly pulls up the top soil and on dirt it causes nicks in the tow plane prop. It also will cause the 2-33 tail to slam
On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 9:45:27 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 3:43:09 AM UTC-7, rec.aviation.soaring wrote:
On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 1:25:11 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
On Saturday, September 16, 2023 at 7:03:45 AM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Tuesday, September 12, 2023 at 4:07:39 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Tuesday, September 12, 2023 at 8:20:16 AM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 9:02:55 AM UTC-4, Hank Nixon wrote:
On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 2:27:14 PM UTC-4, Roy B. wrote:
There is a lot of good advice in this thread - especially for new tow pilots. If I may, I would like to add a couple of points that have not been mentioned. All have "pros" and "cons".
1) There is a technique (after slack is out) of adding power with the tug brakes held on and then releasing the brakes after rpms come up. This increases the initial acceleration of both aircraft and thus somewhat shortens the take
pilot on dirt. I have intentionally tied a 60' loop in a 200' rope for some marginal air retrieves. "Not for beginners".2) A shorter tow rope increases the takeoff margins ( by giving the tug a bit more runway to use) at the expense of a bit more drama and difficulty for the glider pilot. It also increases the dust/visibility problem for the glider
This solves the familiarity problem ( the rope is released after every tow) and it also avoids abrading the rope by dragging it on the ground. When this method is used the awaiting glider is already connected to the new rope and the tug taxis back to3) Old Bob's point about familiarity with the tow rope release a very important. It should be noted that many places use 2 ropes for operations and have the tug pilot drop the rope either shortly before or immediately after landing.
on the life of the tailwheel spring and, if no spring will ultimately cause failure in the aft longerons . We have seen both. Care should be taken in this situation.I am not advocating any of the forgoing - just trying to add to a page that I think has some good information for new tow pilots in it.ROY makes a couple of useful points.
ROY
Fore newer tug pilots looking for pointers I would comment. 1)Hard brake holding while powering up can get a bit more acceleration which helps height at the end of the runway. As Roy points out this can, and almost certainly will, result in a hard tail bang on 2-33's. This will have a bad effect
the tow plane they should RELEASE IMMEDIATELY. Not every instructor is doing an adequate job of driving that point home. It's YOUR life. I would also prohibit any student at any level from having their cell phone with them on solo. Too much temptation to2) If you think you need to shorten the rope to get out of the land out spot, go get the trailer. Short ropes are a big contributor to the possibility of a tug upset.Some very good information and it is laudable that any facility is proactively trying to protect their tow pilots. I would add one thing. The tow pilot should be proactive in insuring that each new student know that if they lose sight of
UH
point considering the last two tow pilots deaths were at the hands of an instructor level pilot to some degree. No GoPROs and no reaching for the canopy on tow, the life you save may be the tow pilots."DON'T KILL THE TOW PILOT," should be the mantra of every Gliderport. Of course saying that might inflame the panties and easily offended sensibilities of some, but F 'em. The tow pilot might do well to remind each "instructor" of this
been much appreciated, nothing like enchasing the safety of the tow pilot. Your statement about , "DON'T KILL THE TOW PILOT", should be one of the first directives driven into the mind of every student.Walt ConnellyWalt, your remarks are right on!!!! Many instructors do not fly both ends of the rope, nothing wrong with that and on the other hand many tow pilots don't instruct, we are smarter than that. Your remarks in reference to my tow release have
Former Tow Pilot
nice. I didn't instruct because I knew I didn't have the proper personality and I find many working instructors who don't either.After a few thousand tows I have decided to pretty much cut back and enjoy my glider flying, and if you are ever down this way hop in the Pawnee and give be a tow, I want to give all these motorglider guys something to shoot for. OBTPAin't gonna happen anytime soon Bob, I'm current only in a Helicopter but thanks for the invite. I lived thru 7000 tows and almost died in one of my last. I like not having to get out of bed until I damn well please every day, retirement is
gathering the data (UGH, that is a lot of work!). Then, you have to find a competent statistician to do the analysis.Walt ConnellyI am not a tow pilot and never will be a tow pilot, but what I read here is either:
FORMER tow pilot.
1. A pissing contest to prove the others don't know shit.
or
2. A multi-dimensional data analysis problem.
In the first case you just ignore the poster and move on; in the second case (in my former professional life) we would engage a statistician to analyze all of the relevant data to build a workable scientific model. The first part of this is
professional remarks and develop guidelines on the subject.I don't think anybody here will get past the first part.
Tom 2GSince you do NOT tow, and want to opine on the topic in which you know nothing about that makes you an untracrepidarian in a profound way. Tow pilots like myself and others who have done thousands of tows and are much more qualified to make
teach a student to fly a self-launch as quickly. It'd be fun to try, though. Please read my "A Guide to Operating Self-launching Sailplanes" for a detailed explanation.My suggestion to you would be for you to stick to something that you are at least qualified to comment on. Most people that cannot stay behind the tow plane go straight to motorgliding, looks like you found the perfect home. Old Bob, The PuristBeing towed is a lot easier than launching in a motorglider, and arguably safer (at least for the glider pilot, but not the tow pilot). When I was instructing, it only took a few flights for a student to learn to fly the whole tow. I doubt I could
flights to teach someone how to stay behind the tow plane. Old Bob, The PuristEric, that last comment really made me laugh, I find it laughable to compare self launching to staying behind the tow plane in a pure glider. I make over a thousand tows a year, about 75% or more are training flights and it takes more than just a few
I thought you said you didn't instruct? Or is that what the instructors in your club tell you? Anyway, my students were not ready to solo or to handle tow emergencies after a few flights, but it didn't take them long to learn towing basics, which are...
First things First: The glider responds slowly, so move the stick deliberately. Please don't wiggle it all over the place!Eric, I would never instruct, I am smarter than that. I do tow more than most and most of my tows are for training flights, no, the glider does not respond slowly, an out of position glider can kill you in two seconds. There is no BIG SECRET, just good
Second, the BIG SECRET: If you hold the stick approximately centered, the glider will settle down in about the right place (you are not balancing a broom on the palm of your hand - it's stable system if you give it a chance)
Then, point the glider at the tow plane...
- use the ailerons to keep the wing parallel to the tow plane wing
- use the elevator to position the tow plane on the horizon
- use the rudder to point the nose at the tow plane
How long does it take Treasure Coast students to learn to point the glider at the tow plane?
On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 5:00:49 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:off distance. It also gets air moving over the glider ailerons earlier. But, it should only be used on a paved runway. On grass it quickly pulls up the top soil and on dirt it causes nicks in the tow plane prop. It also will cause the 2-33 tail to slam
On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 12:42:39 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 9:45:27 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 3:43:09 AM UTC-7, rec.aviation.soaring wrote:
On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 1:25:11 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
On Saturday, September 16, 2023 at 7:03:45 AM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Tuesday, September 12, 2023 at 4:07:39 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Tuesday, September 12, 2023 at 8:20:16 AM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 9:02:55 AM UTC-4, Hank Nixon wrote:
On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 2:27:14 PM UTC-4, Roy B. wrote:
There is a lot of good advice in this thread - especially for new tow pilots. If I may, I would like to add a couple of points that have not been mentioned. All have "pros" and "cons".
1) There is a technique (after slack is out) of adding power with the tug brakes held on and then releasing the brakes after rpms come up. This increases the initial acceleration of both aircraft and thus somewhat shortens the take
pilot on dirt. I have intentionally tied a 60' loop in a 200' rope for some marginal air retrieves. "Not for beginners".2) A shorter tow rope increases the takeoff margins ( by giving the tug a bit more runway to use) at the expense of a bit more drama and difficulty for the glider pilot. It also increases the dust/visibility problem for the glider
This solves the familiarity problem ( the rope is released after every tow) and it also avoids abrading the rope by dragging it on the ground. When this method is used the awaiting glider is already connected to the new rope and the tug taxis back to3) Old Bob's point about familiarity with the tow rope release a very important. It should be noted that many places use 2 ropes for operations and have the tug pilot drop the rope either shortly before or immediately after landing.
effect on the life of the tailwheel spring and, if no spring will ultimately cause failure in the aft longerons . We have seen both. Care should be taken in this situation.I am not advocating any of the forgoing - just trying to add to a page that I think has some good information for new tow pilots in it.ROY makes a couple of useful points.
ROY
Fore newer tug pilots looking for pointers I would comment.
1)Hard brake holding while powering up can get a bit more acceleration which helps height at the end of the runway. As Roy points out this can, and almost certainly will, result in a hard tail bang on 2-33's. This will have a bad
of the tow plane they should RELEASE IMMEDIATELY. Not every instructor is doing an adequate job of driving that point home. It's YOUR life. I would also prohibit any student at any level from having their cell phone with them on solo. Too much temptation2) If you think you need to shorten the rope to get out of the land out spot, go get the trailer. Short ropes are a big contributor to the possibility of a tug upset.Some very good information and it is laudable that any facility is proactively trying to protect their tow pilots. I would add one thing. The tow pilot should be proactive in insuring that each new student know that if they lose sight
UH
point considering the last two tow pilots deaths were at the hands of an instructor level pilot to some degree. No GoPROs and no reaching for the canopy on tow, the life you save may be the tow pilots."DON'T KILL THE TOW PILOT," should be the mantra of every Gliderport. Of course saying that might inflame the panties and easily offended sensibilities of some, but F 'em. The tow pilot might do well to remind each "instructor" of this
have been much appreciated, nothing like enchasing the safety of the tow pilot. Your statement about , "DON'T KILL THE TOW PILOT", should be one of the first directives driven into the mind of every student.Walt ConnellyWalt, your remarks are right on!!!! Many instructors do not fly both ends of the rope, nothing wrong with that and on the other hand many tow pilots don't instruct, we are smarter than that. Your remarks in reference to my tow release
Former Tow Pilot
nice. I didn't instruct because I knew I didn't have the proper personality and I find many working instructors who don't either.After a few thousand tows I have decided to pretty much cut back and enjoy my glider flying, and if you are ever down this way hop in the Pawnee and give be a tow, I want to give all these motorglider guys something to shoot for. OBTPAin't gonna happen anytime soon Bob, I'm current only in a Helicopter but thanks for the invite. I lived thru 7000 tows and almost died in one of my last. I like not having to get out of bed until I damn well please every day, retirement is
gathering the data (UGH, that is a lot of work!). Then, you have to find a competent statistician to do the analysis.Walt ConnellyI am not a tow pilot and never will be a tow pilot, but what I read here is either:
FORMER tow pilot.
1. A pissing contest to prove the others don't know shit.
or
2. A multi-dimensional data analysis problem.
In the first case you just ignore the poster and move on; in the second case (in my former professional life) we would engage a statistician to analyze all of the relevant data to build a workable scientific model. The first part of this is
professional remarks and develop guidelines on the subject.I don't think anybody here will get past the first part.
Tom 2GSince you do NOT tow, and want to opine on the topic in which you know nothing about that makes you an untracrepidarian in a profound way. Tow pilots like myself and others who have done thousands of tows and are much more qualified to make
could teach a student to fly a self-launch as quickly. It'd be fun to try, though. Please read my "A Guide to Operating Self-launching Sailplanes" for a detailed explanation.My suggestion to you would be for you to stick to something that you are at least qualified to comment on. Most people that cannot stay behind the tow plane go straight to motorgliding, looks like you found the perfect home. Old Bob, The PuristBeing towed is a lot easier than launching in a motorglider, and arguably safer (at least for the glider pilot, but not the tow pilot). When I was instructing, it only took a few flights for a student to learn to fly the whole tow. I doubt I
few flights to teach someone how to stay behind the tow plane. Old Bob, The PuristEric, that last comment really made me laugh, I find it laughable to compare self launching to staying behind the tow plane in a pure glider. I make over a thousand tows a year, about 75% or more are training flights and it takes more than just a
..I thought you said you didn't instruct? Or is that what the instructors in your club tell you? Anyway, my students were not ready to solo or to handle tow emergencies after a few flights, but it didn't take them long to learn towing basics, which are.
Ten flights to "master" the tow seems reasonable. That's more advanced than just being able to follow the tow plane. And the secrets aren't really secrets, except for the new student, who tend to overcontrol at first, in part from nervousness, andFirst things First: The glider responds slowly, so move the stick deliberately. Please don't wiggle it all over the place!
Second, the BIG SECRET: If you hold the stick approximately centered, the glider will settle down in about the right place (you are not balancing a broom on the palm of your hand - it's stable system if you give it a chance)
Then, point the glider at the tow plane...
- use the ailerons to keep the wing parallel to the tow plane wing
- use the elevator to position the tow plane on the horizon
- use the rudder to point the nose at the tow plane
How long does it take Treasure Coast students to learn to point the glider at the tow plane?My experience is that most students master the tow in about 10 flights. It takes time to develop the sense of position and timing.
It has little to do with big secrets. It takes a few flights to get it. I have seen some hold position on the first try but that is rare.
UH
On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 5:00:49 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:off distance. It also gets air moving over the glider ailerons earlier. But, it should only be used on a paved runway. On grass it quickly pulls up the top soil and on dirt it causes nicks in the tow plane prop. It also will cause the 2-33 tail to slam
On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 12:42:39 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 9:45:27 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 3:43:09 AM UTC-7, rec.aviation.soaring wrote:
On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 1:25:11 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
On Saturday, September 16, 2023 at 7:03:45 AM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Tuesday, September 12, 2023 at 4:07:39 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Tuesday, September 12, 2023 at 8:20:16 AM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 9:02:55 AM UTC-4, Hank Nixon wrote:
On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 2:27:14 PM UTC-4, Roy B. wrote:
There is a lot of good advice in this thread - especially for new tow pilots. If I may, I would like to add a couple of points that have not been mentioned. All have "pros" and "cons".
1) There is a technique (after slack is out) of adding power with the tug brakes held on and then releasing the brakes after rpms come up. This increases the initial acceleration of both aircraft and thus somewhat shortens the take
pilot on dirt. I have intentionally tied a 60' loop in a 200' rope for some marginal air retrieves. "Not for beginners".2) A shorter tow rope increases the takeoff margins ( by giving the tug a bit more runway to use) at the expense of a bit more drama and difficulty for the glider pilot. It also increases the dust/visibility problem for the glider
This solves the familiarity problem ( the rope is released after every tow) and it also avoids abrading the rope by dragging it on the ground. When this method is used the awaiting glider is already connected to the new rope and the tug taxis back to3) Old Bob's point about familiarity with the tow rope release a very important. It should be noted that many places use 2 ropes for operations and have the tug pilot drop the rope either shortly before or immediately after landing.
effect on the life of the tailwheel spring and, if no spring will ultimately cause failure in the aft longerons . We have seen both. Care should be taken in this situation.I am not advocating any of the forgoing - just trying to add to a page that I think has some good information for new tow pilots in it.ROY makes a couple of useful points.
ROY
Fore newer tug pilots looking for pointers I would comment.
1)Hard brake holding while powering up can get a bit more acceleration which helps height at the end of the runway. As Roy points out this can, and almost certainly will, result in a hard tail bang on 2-33's. This will have a bad
of the tow plane they should RELEASE IMMEDIATELY. Not every instructor is doing an adequate job of driving that point home. It's YOUR life. I would also prohibit any student at any level from having their cell phone with them on solo. Too much temptation2) If you think you need to shorten the rope to get out of the land out spot, go get the trailer. Short ropes are a big contributor to the possibility of a tug upset.Some very good information and it is laudable that any facility is proactively trying to protect their tow pilots. I would add one thing. The tow pilot should be proactive in insuring that each new student know that if they lose sight
UH
point considering the last two tow pilots deaths were at the hands of an instructor level pilot to some degree. No GoPROs and no reaching for the canopy on tow, the life you save may be the tow pilots."DON'T KILL THE TOW PILOT," should be the mantra of every Gliderport. Of course saying that might inflame the panties and easily offended sensibilities of some, but F 'em. The tow pilot might do well to remind each "instructor" of this
have been much appreciated, nothing like enchasing the safety of the tow pilot. Your statement about , "DON'T KILL THE TOW PILOT", should be one of the first directives driven into the mind of every student.Walt ConnellyWalt, your remarks are right on!!!! Many instructors do not fly both ends of the rope, nothing wrong with that and on the other hand many tow pilots don't instruct, we are smarter than that. Your remarks in reference to my tow release
Former Tow Pilot
nice. I didn't instruct because I knew I didn't have the proper personality and I find many working instructors who don't either.After a few thousand tows I have decided to pretty much cut back and enjoy my glider flying, and if you are ever down this way hop in the Pawnee and give be a tow, I want to give all these motorglider guys something to shoot for. OBTPAin't gonna happen anytime soon Bob, I'm current only in a Helicopter but thanks for the invite. I lived thru 7000 tows and almost died in one of my last. I like not having to get out of bed until I damn well please every day, retirement is
gathering the data (UGH, that is a lot of work!). Then, you have to find a competent statistician to do the analysis.Walt ConnellyI am not a tow pilot and never will be a tow pilot, but what I read here is either:
FORMER tow pilot.
1. A pissing contest to prove the others don't know shit.
or
2. A multi-dimensional data analysis problem.
In the first case you just ignore the poster and move on; in the second case (in my former professional life) we would engage a statistician to analyze all of the relevant data to build a workable scientific model. The first part of this is
professional remarks and develop guidelines on the subject.I don't think anybody here will get past the first part.
Tom 2GSince you do NOT tow, and want to opine on the topic in which you know nothing about that makes you an untracrepidarian in a profound way. Tow pilots like myself and others who have done thousands of tows and are much more qualified to make
could teach a student to fly a self-launch as quickly. It'd be fun to try, though. Please read my "A Guide to Operating Self-launching Sailplanes" for a detailed explanation.My suggestion to you would be for you to stick to something that you are at least qualified to comment on. Most people that cannot stay behind the tow plane go straight to motorgliding, looks like you found the perfect home. Old Bob, The PuristBeing towed is a lot easier than launching in a motorglider, and arguably safer (at least for the glider pilot, but not the tow pilot). When I was instructing, it only took a few flights for a student to learn to fly the whole tow. I doubt I
few flights to teach someone how to stay behind the tow plane. Old Bob, The PuristEric, that last comment really made me laugh, I find it laughable to compare self launching to staying behind the tow plane in a pure glider. I make over a thousand tows a year, about 75% or more are training flights and it takes more than just a
..I thought you said you didn't instruct? Or is that what the instructors in your club tell you? Anyway, my students were not ready to solo or to handle tow emergencies after a few flights, but it didn't take them long to learn towing basics, which are.
execution will make the tow pilot a nicer guy or girl. I rarely see students conquer the tow in very few flights, and I have seen a student take over 150 flights to solo. I thought I was going to buy the farm last week on a first solo, it was damn rightFirst things First: The glider responds slowly, so move the stick deliberately. Please don't wiggle it all over the place!
Second, the BIG SECRET: If you hold the stick approximately centered, the glider will settle down in about the right place (you are not balancing a broom on the palm of your hand - it's stable system if you give it a chance)
Then, point the glider at the tow plane...
- use the ailerons to keep the wing parallel to the tow plane wing
- use the elevator to position the tow plane on the horizon
- use the rudder to point the nose at the tow plane
How long does it take Treasure Coast students to learn to point the glider at the tow plane?Eric, I would never instruct, I am smarter than that. I do tow more than most and most of my tows are for training flights, no, the glider does not respond slowly, an out of position glider can kill you in two seconds. There is no BIG SECRET, just good
...
First things First: The glider responds slowly, so move the stick deliberately. Please don't wiggle it all over the place!
Second, the BIG SECRET: If you hold the stick approximately centered, the glider will settle down in about the right place (you are not balancing a broom on the palm of your hand - it's stable system if you give it a chance)
Then, point the glider at the tow plane...
- use the ailerons to keep the wing parallel to the tow plane wing
- use the elevator to position the tow plane on the horizon
- use the rudder to point the nose at the tow plane
How long does it take Treasure Coast students to learn to point the glider at the tow plane?
"use the elevator to position the tow plane on the horizon"
- I find that that leads to over-correction by the student pilots. What
I tell them is to "use the elevator to position the tow plane in the
right spot in the windshield/canopy". The position relative to the
horizon then corrects itself, slowly.
On 9/19/2023 5:00 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
...
First things First: The glider responds slowly, so move the stick deliberately. Please don't wiggle it all over the place!
Second, the BIG SECRET: If you hold the stick approximately centered, the glider will settle down in about the right place (you are not balancing a broom on the palm of your hand - it's stable system if you give it a chance)
Then, point the glider at the tow plane...
- use the ailerons to keep the wing parallel to the tow plane wing
- use the elevator to position the tow plane on the horizon
- use the rudder to point the nose at the tow plane
How long does it take Treasure Coast students to learn to point the glider at the tow plane?
"use the elevator to position the tow plane on the horizon"...
- I find that that leads to over-correction by the student pilots. What
I tell them is to "use the elevator to position the tow plane in the
right spot in the windshield/canopy". The position relative to the
horizon then corrects itself, slowly.
On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 8:02:45 PM UTC-5, Moshe Braner wrote:
"use the elevator to position the tow plane on the horizon"...
- I find that that leads to over-correction by the student pilots. What
I tell them is to "use the elevator to position the tow plane in the
right spot in the windshield/canopy". The position relative to the
horizon then corrects itself, slowly.
Finally discovering that secret was what enabled me to finally towIt was a SECRET, and you found it. OBTP
cleanly. Nobody ever told me, I had to stumble on this myself.
Rich L.
On Wednesday, September 20, 2023 at 10:10:43 AM UTC-4, Richard Livingston wrote:
On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 8:02:45 PM UTC-5, Moshe Braner wrote:
"use the elevator to position the tow plane on the horizon"...
- I find that that leads to over-correction by the student pilots. What I tell them is to "use the elevator to position the tow plane in the right spot in the windshield/canopy". The position relative to the horizon then corrects itself, slowly.
Told you! You gotta tell the student the SECRET, which is using the elevator and rudder to point a spot on the canopy at the tow plane, then using the ailerons to match the glider wing (the bank) with the tow plane wing. Learn to that, and you can flyFinally discovering that secret was what enabled me to finally tow cleanly. Nobody ever told me, I had to stumble on this myself.
Rich L.It was a SECRET, and you found it. OBTP
On Wednesday, September 20, 2023 at 10:27:51 AM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Wednesday, September 20, 2023 at 10:10:43 AM UTC-4, Richard Livingston wrote:
On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 8:02:45 PM UTC-5, Moshe Braner wrote:
"use the elevator to position the tow plane on the horizon"...
- I find that that leads to over-correction by the student pilots. What
I tell them is to "use the elevator to position the tow plane in the right spot in the windshield/canopy". The position relative to the horizon then corrects itself, slowly.
entire tow from rope attachment to rope release even do wing down, unassisted takeoffs. You need more training to be solo ready, but hey! That's great progress that doesn't take a lot of flights to learn.Finally discovering that secret was what enabled me to finally tow cleanly. Nobody ever told me, I had to stumble on this myself.
Told you! You gotta tell the student the SECRET, which is using the elevator and rudder to point a spot on the canopy at the tow plane, then using the ailerons to match the glider wing (the bank) with the tow plane wing. Learn to that, and you can flyRich L.It was a SECRET, and you found it. OBTP
I've only trained students in a Blanik L-13, and other gliders might not be as docile, and require a slightly different approach.Eric, the SECRET is that Elvis is not at a pizza parlor in Detroit, he might just be flying his motorglider somewhere near Memphis while he sings Amazing Grace. I love how all you instructors come up with these theories on how to follow the towplane,
Eric
On Wednesday, September 20, 2023 at 7:27:31 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On Wednesday, September 20, 2023 at 10:27:51 AM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Wednesday, September 20, 2023 at 10:10:43 AM UTC-4, Richard Livingston wrote:
On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 8:02:45 PM UTC-5, Moshe Braner wrote:
"use the elevator to position the tow plane on the horizon"...
- I find that that leads to over-correction by the student pilots. What
I tell them is to "use the elevator to position the tow plane in the right spot in the windshield/canopy". The position relative to the horizon then corrects itself, slowly.
fly entire tow from rope attachment to rope release even do wing down, unassisted takeoffs. You need more training to be solo ready, but hey! That's great progress that doesn't take a lot of flights to learn.Finally discovering that secret was what enabled me to finally tow cleanly. Nobody ever told me, I had to stumble on this myself.
Told you! You gotta tell the student the SECRET, which is using the elevator and rudder to point a spot on the canopy at the tow plane, then using the ailerons to match the glider wing (the bank) with the tow plane wing. Learn to that, and you canRich L.It was a SECRET, and you found it. OBTP
just put that dot on the window and all is good, I am going to call BS on that theory. OBTPI've only trained students in a Blanik L-13, and other gliders might not be as docile, and require a slightly different approach.
EricEric, the SECRET is that Elvis is not at a pizza parlor in Detroit, he might just be flying his motorglider somewhere near Memphis while he sings Amazing Grace. I love how all you instructors come up with these theories on how to follow the towplane,
I'm waiting for one of the eminent instructors here to reveal the simple SECRET for following the tow plane when it's turning.
I'm waiting for one of the eminent instructors here to reveal the simple SECRET for following the tow plane when it's turning.
On Thursday, September 21, 2023 at 1:04:25 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:fly entire tow from rope attachment to rope release even do wing down, unassisted takeoffs. You need more training to be solo ready, but hey! That's great progress that doesn't take a lot of flights to learn.
On Wednesday, September 20, 2023 at 7:27:31 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On Wednesday, September 20, 2023 at 10:27:51 AM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Wednesday, September 20, 2023 at 10:10:43 AM UTC-4, Richard Livingston wrote:Told you! You gotta tell the student the SECRET, which is using the elevator and rudder to point a spot on the canopy at the tow plane, then using the ailerons to match the glider wing (the bank) with the tow plane wing. Learn to that, and you can
On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 8:02:45 PM UTC-5, Moshe Braner wrote: >>>>>> "use the elevator to position the tow plane on the horizon"It was a SECRET, and you found it. OBTP
- I find that that leads to over-correction by the student pilots. What >>>>>> I tell them is to "use the elevator to position the tow plane in the >>>>>> right spot in the windshield/canopy". The position relative to the >>>>>> horizon then corrects itself, slowly....
Finally discovering that secret was what enabled me to finally tow
cleanly. Nobody ever told me, I had to stumble on this myself.
Rich L.
just put that dot on the window and all is good, I am going to call BS on that theory. OBTPEric, the SECRET is that Elvis is not at a pizza parlor in Detroit, he might just be flying his motorglider somewhere near Memphis while he sings Amazing Grace. I love how all you instructors come up with these theories on how to follow the towplane,
I've only trained students in a Blanik L-13, and other gliders might not be as docile, and require a slightly different approach.
Eric
It's not just me and Moshe, Old Bob, but also ... (wait for it) ... the 1989 Joy of Soaring [rimshot ]put out by the SSA (page 28): "The third, and preferred, technique is to keep the towplane in a fixed position on the glider's windshield. ... Ineffect, the glider pilot aligns two points in the glider upon the towplane, ... thus aiming the glider at the towplane." [2nd rimshot]
Now, there are TWO things you should read: "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" and "The Joy of Soaring". You are probably still busy with towing and all, but summer's almost gone, yes, and winter's comin' on, so you'll have those long, darkevenings to catch up on some this stuff.
You and Bob gotta be old farts, Eric! But I love the reference to Billy Grammer.fly entire tow from rope attachment to rope release even do wing down, unassisted takeoffs. You need more training to be solo ready, but hey! That's great progress that doesn't take a lot of flights to learn.
BTW, the trick to flying tow is, indeed, to keep the tug in a spot on
the canopy. But the REAL trick that nobody has revealed yet is to know
just where that spot is and how it changes during turns and straight
ahead flight.
Not an instructor (by choice) - just an old fart, too...
Dan
5J
On 9/21/23 17:13, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On Thursday, September 21, 2023 at 1:04:25 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Wednesday, September 20, 2023 at 7:27:31 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On Wednesday, September 20, 2023 at 10:27:51 AM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Wednesday, September 20, 2023 at 10:10:43 AM UTC-4, Richard Livingston wrote:Told you! You gotta tell the student the SECRET, which is using the elevator and rudder to point a spot on the canopy at the tow plane, then using the ailerons to match the glider wing (the bank) with the tow plane wing. Learn to that, and you can
On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 8:02:45 PM UTC-5, Moshe Braner wrote:It was a SECRET, and you found it. OBTP
"use the elevator to position the tow plane on the horizon"...
- I find that that leads to over-correction by the student pilots. What
I tell them is to "use the elevator to position the tow plane in the >>>>>> right spot in the windshield/canopy". The position relative to the >>>>>> horizon then corrects itself, slowly.
Finally discovering that secret was what enabled me to finally tow >>>>> cleanly. Nobody ever told me, I had to stumble on this myself.
Rich L.
just put that dot on the window and all is good, I am going to call BS on that theory. OBTPEric, the SECRET is that Elvis is not at a pizza parlor in Detroit, he might just be flying his motorglider somewhere near Memphis while he sings Amazing Grace. I love how all you instructors come up with these theories on how to follow the towplane,
I've only trained students in a Blanik L-13, and other gliders might not be as docile, and require a slightly different approach.
Eric
effect, the glider pilot aligns two points in the glider upon the towplane, ... thus aiming the glider at the towplane." [2nd rimshot]It's not just me and Moshe, Old Bob, but also ... (wait for it) ... the 1989 Joy of Soaring [rimshot ]put out by the SSA (page 28): "The third, and preferred, technique is to keep the towplane in a fixed position on the glider's windshield. ... In
dark evenings to catch up on some this stuff.Now, there are TWO things you should read: "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" and "The Joy of Soaring". You are probably still busy with towing and all, but summer's almost gone, yes, and winter's comin' on, so you'll have those long,
On Friday, September 22, 2023 at 10:44:59 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:can fly entire tow from rope attachment to rope release even do wing down, unassisted takeoffs. You need more training to be solo ready, but hey! That's great progress that doesn't take a lot of flights to learn.
You and Bob gotta be old farts, Eric! But I love the reference to Billy Grammer.
BTW, the trick to flying tow is, indeed, to keep the tug in a spot on
the canopy. But the REAL trick that nobody has revealed yet is to know just where that spot is and how it changes during turns and straight
ahead flight.
Not an instructor (by choice) - just an old fart, too...
Dan
5J
On 9/21/23 17:13, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On Thursday, September 21, 2023 at 1:04:25 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Wednesday, September 20, 2023 at 7:27:31 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On Wednesday, September 20, 2023 at 10:27:51 AM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Wednesday, September 20, 2023 at 10:10:43 AM UTC-4, Richard Livingston wrote:Told you! You gotta tell the student the SECRET, which is using the elevator and rudder to point a spot on the canopy at the tow plane, then using the ailerons to match the glider wing (the bank) with the tow plane wing. Learn to that, and you
On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 8:02:45 PM UTC-5, Moshe Braner wrote:It was a SECRET, and you found it. OBTP
"use the elevator to position the tow plane on the horizon"...
- I find that that leads to over-correction by the student pilots. What
I tell them is to "use the elevator to position the tow plane in the
right spot in the windshield/canopy". The position relative to the >>>>>> horizon then corrects itself, slowly.
Finally discovering that secret was what enabled me to finally tow >>>>> cleanly. Nobody ever told me, I had to stumble on this myself.
Rich L.
towplane, just put that dot on the window and all is good, I am going to call BS on that theory. OBTPEric, the SECRET is that Elvis is not at a pizza parlor in Detroit, he might just be flying his motorglider somewhere near Memphis while he sings Amazing Grace. I love how all you instructors come up with these theories on how to follow the
I've only trained students in a Blanik L-13, and other gliders might not be as docile, and require a slightly different approach.
Eric
effect, the glider pilot aligns two points in the glider upon the towplane, ... thus aiming the glider at the towplane." [2nd rimshot]It's not just me and Moshe, Old Bob, but also ... (wait for it) ... the 1989 Joy of Soaring [rimshot ]put out by the SSA (page 28): "The third, and preferred, technique is to keep the towplane in a fixed position on the glider's windshield. ... In
dark evenings to catch up on some this stuff.Now, there are TWO things you should read: "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" and "The Joy of Soaring". You are probably still busy with towing and all, but summer's almost gone, yes, and winter's comin' on, so you'll have those long,
Dan, I am a bit confused about the spot or is it a dot? If it is a spot I am going to get a Magic Marker and place a spot from the marker on the windshield of the 2-33, AKA, Skyhag, in hopes that the students will keep the spot on the Pawnee. Now if itis a dot then I will place a red dot sticker on the windshield and never again do I expect any glider pilot to be out of position.
Yes Eric, the days will be getting shorter and darkness will cover the sky sooner than expected, this will allow more time for me to catch up on all the books that I have on my night stand. Don't think the Joy Of Soaring or The Guide To Motorglidingwill be at the top of my list. I have the new Mark Levin book on how the democrats have ruined the country.
With this new fall weather approaching I do plan on flying my pure ASW27B on some nice triangles around South Florida, who knows, might just make a few more trips around 2901 taking the left and right banana. OBTPOB, don't worry, be happy, it doesn't need to be done note for note, but just keep the towplane somewhere near the "dot". Which, btw, will have a location that depends mostly on the pilot's seated height; also, you are the towpilot way up front, so it
On Friday, September 22, 2023 at 10:44:59 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:fly entire tow from rope attachment to rope release even do wing down, unassisted takeoffs. You need more training to be solo ready, but hey! That's great progress that doesn't take a lot of flights to learn.
You and Bob gotta be old farts, Eric! But I love the reference to Billy
Grammer.
BTW, the trick to flying tow is, indeed, to keep the tug in a spot on
the canopy. But the REAL trick that nobody has revealed yet is to know
just where that spot is and how it changes during turns and straight
ahead flight.
Not an instructor (by choice) - just an old fart, too...
Dan
5J
On 9/21/23 17:13, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On Thursday, September 21, 2023 at 1:04:25 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Wednesday, September 20, 2023 at 7:27:31 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On Wednesday, September 20, 2023 at 10:27:51 AM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Wednesday, September 20, 2023 at 10:10:43 AM UTC-4, Richard Livingston wrote:Told you! You gotta tell the student the SECRET, which is using the elevator and rudder to point a spot on the canopy at the tow plane, then using the ailerons to match the glider wing (the bank) with the tow plane wing. Learn to that, and you can
On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 8:02:45 PM UTC-5, Moshe Braner wrote:It was a SECRET, and you found it. OBTP
"use the elevator to position the tow plane on the horizon"...
- I find that that leads to over-correction by the student pilots. What
I tell them is to "use the elevator to position the tow plane in the >>>>>>>> right spot in the windshield/canopy". The position relative to the >>>>>>>> horizon then corrects itself, slowly.
Finally discovering that secret was what enabled me to finally tow >>>>>>> cleanly. Nobody ever told me, I had to stumble on this myself.
Rich L.
just put that dot on the window and all is good, I am going to call BS on that theory. OBTPEric, the SECRET is that Elvis is not at a pizza parlor in Detroit, he might just be flying his motorglider somewhere near Memphis while he sings Amazing Grace. I love how all you instructors come up with these theories on how to follow the towplane,
I've only trained students in a Blanik L-13, and other gliders might not be as docile, and require a slightly different approach.
Eric
effect, the glider pilot aligns two points in the glider upon the towplane, ... thus aiming the glider at the towplane." [2nd rimshot]It's not just me and Moshe, Old Bob, but also ... (wait for it) ... the 1989 Joy of Soaring [rimshot ]put out by the SSA (page 28): "The third, and preferred, technique is to keep the towplane in a fixed position on the glider's windshield. ... In
dark evenings to catch up on some this stuff.
Now, there are TWO things you should read: "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" and "The Joy of Soaring". You are probably still busy with towing and all, but summer's almost gone, yes, and winter's comin' on, so you'll have those long,
Dan, I am a bit confused about the spot or is it a dot? If it is a spot I am going to get a Magic Marker and place a spot from the marker on the windshield of the 2-33, AKA, Skyhag, in hopes that the students will keep the spot on the Pawnee. Now if itis a dot then I will place a red dot sticker on the windshield and never again do I expect any glider pilot to be out of position.
Yes Eric, the days will be getting shorter and darkness will cover the sky sooner than expected, this will allow more time for me to catch up on all the books that I have on my night stand. Don't think the Joy Of Soaring or The Guide To Motorglidingwill be at the top of my list. I have the new Mark Levin book on how the democrats have ruined the country.
With this new fall weather approaching I do plan on flying my pure ASW27B on some nice triangles around South Florida, who knows, might just make a few more trips around 2901 taking the left and right banana. OBTP
On Friday, September 22, 2023 at 3:03:22 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:can fly entire tow from rope attachment to rope release even do wing down, unassisted takeoffs. You need more training to be solo ready, but hey! That's great progress that doesn't take a lot of flights to learn.
On Friday, September 22, 2023 at 10:44:59 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
You and Bob gotta be old farts, Eric! But I love the reference to Billy Grammer.
BTW, the trick to flying tow is, indeed, to keep the tug in a spot on the canopy. But the REAL trick that nobody has revealed yet is to know just where that spot is and how it changes during turns and straight ahead flight.
Not an instructor (by choice) - just an old fart, too...
Dan
5J
On 9/21/23 17:13, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On Thursday, September 21, 2023 at 1:04:25 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Wednesday, September 20, 2023 at 7:27:31 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On Wednesday, September 20, 2023 at 10:27:51 AM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Wednesday, September 20, 2023 at 10:10:43 AM UTC-4, Richard Livingston wrote:Told you! You gotta tell the student the SECRET, which is using the elevator and rudder to point a spot on the canopy at the tow plane, then using the ailerons to match the glider wing (the bank) with the tow plane wing. Learn to that, and you
On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 8:02:45 PM UTC-5, Moshe Braner wrote:It was a SECRET, and you found it. OBTP
"use the elevator to position the tow plane on the horizon" >>>>>> - I find that that leads to over-correction by the student pilots. What...
I tell them is to "use the elevator to position the tow plane in the
right spot in the windshield/canopy". The position relative to the
horizon then corrects itself, slowly.
Finally discovering that secret was what enabled me to finally tow >>>>> cleanly. Nobody ever told me, I had to stumble on this myself. >>>>>
Rich L.
towplane, just put that dot on the window and all is good, I am going to call BS on that theory. OBTPEric, the SECRET is that Elvis is not at a pizza parlor in Detroit, he might just be flying his motorglider somewhere near Memphis while he sings Amazing Grace. I love how all you instructors come up with these theories on how to follow the
I've only trained students in a Blanik L-13, and other gliders might not be as docile, and require a slightly different approach.
Eric
In effect, the glider pilot aligns two points in the glider upon the towplane, ... thus aiming the glider at the towplane." [2nd rimshot]It's not just me and Moshe, Old Bob, but also ... (wait for it) ... the 1989 Joy of Soaring [rimshot ]put out by the SSA (page 28): "The third, and preferred, technique is to keep the towplane in a fixed position on the glider's windshield. ...
dark evenings to catch up on some this stuff.Now, there are TWO things you should read: "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" and "The Joy of Soaring". You are probably still busy with towing and all, but summer's almost gone, yes, and winter's comin' on, so you'll have those long,
it is a dot then I will place a red dot sticker on the windshield and never again do I expect any glider pilot to be out of position.Dan, I am a bit confused about the spot or is it a dot? If it is a spot I am going to get a Magic Marker and place a spot from the marker on the windshield of the 2-33, AKA, Skyhag, in hopes that the students will keep the spot on the Pawnee. Now if
will be at the top of my list. I have the new Mark Levin book on how the democrats have ruined the country.Yes Eric, the days will be getting shorter and darkness will cover the sky sooner than expected, this will allow more time for me to catch up on all the books that I have on my night stand. Don't think the Joy Of Soaring or The Guide To Motorgliding
will be your club instructors revealing the "secret" of the aim point.With this new fall weather approaching I do plan on flying my pure ASW27B on some nice triangles around South Florida, who knows, might just make a few more trips around 2901 taking the left and right banana. OBTPOB, don't worry, be happy, it doesn't need to be done note for note, but just keep the towplane somewhere near the "dot". Which, btw, will have a location that depends mostly on the pilot's seated height; also, you are the towpilot way up front, so it
On Friday, September 22, 2023 at 7:06:36 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:you can fly entire tow from rope attachment to rope release even do wing down, unassisted takeoffs. You need more training to be solo ready, but hey! That's great progress that doesn't take a lot of flights to learn.
On Friday, September 22, 2023 at 3:03:22 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Friday, September 22, 2023 at 10:44:59 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
You and Bob gotta be old farts, Eric! But I love the reference to Billy
Grammer.
BTW, the trick to flying tow is, indeed, to keep the tug in a spot on the canopy. But the REAL trick that nobody has revealed yet is to know just where that spot is and how it changes during turns and straight ahead flight.
Not an instructor (by choice) - just an old fart, too...
Dan
5J
On 9/21/23 17:13, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On Thursday, September 21, 2023 at 1:04:25 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Wednesday, September 20, 2023 at 7:27:31 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On Wednesday, September 20, 2023 at 10:27:51 AM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote:
On Wednesday, September 20, 2023 at 10:10:43 AM UTC-4, Richard Livingston wrote:Told you! You gotta tell the student the SECRET, which is using the elevator and rudder to point a spot on the canopy at the tow plane, then using the ailerons to match the glider wing (the bank) with the tow plane wing. Learn to that, and
On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 8:02:45 PM UTC-5, Moshe Braner wrote:It was a SECRET, and you found it. OBTP
"use the elevator to position the tow plane on the horizon" >>>>>> - I find that that leads to over-correction by the student pilots. What...
I tell them is to "use the elevator to position the tow plane in the
right spot in the windshield/canopy". The position relative to the
horizon then corrects itself, slowly.
Finally discovering that secret was what enabled me to finally tow
cleanly. Nobody ever told me, I had to stumble on this myself. >>>>>
Rich L.
towplane, just put that dot on the window and all is good, I am going to call BS on that theory. OBTPEric, the SECRET is that Elvis is not at a pizza parlor in Detroit, he might just be flying his motorglider somewhere near Memphis while he sings Amazing Grace. I love how all you instructors come up with these theories on how to follow the
I've only trained students in a Blanik L-13, and other gliders might not be as docile, and require a slightly different approach.
Eric
In effect, the glider pilot aligns two points in the glider upon the towplane, ... thus aiming the glider at the towplane." [2nd rimshot]It's not just me and Moshe, Old Bob, but also ... (wait for it) ... the 1989 Joy of Soaring [rimshot ]put out by the SSA (page 28): "The third, and preferred, technique is to keep the towplane in a fixed position on the glider's windshield. ...
long, dark evenings to catch up on some this stuff.Now, there are TWO things you should read: "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" and "The Joy of Soaring". You are probably still busy with towing and all, but summer's almost gone, yes, and winter's comin' on, so you'll have those
if it is a dot then I will place a red dot sticker on the windshield and never again do I expect any glider pilot to be out of position.Dan, I am a bit confused about the spot or is it a dot? If it is a spot I am going to get a Magic Marker and place a spot from the marker on the windshield of the 2-33, AKA, Skyhag, in hopes that the students will keep the spot on the Pawnee. Now
Motorgliding will be at the top of my list. I have the new Mark Levin book on how the democrats have ruined the country.Yes Eric, the days will be getting shorter and darkness will cover the sky sooner than expected, this will allow more time for me to catch up on all the books that I have on my night stand. Don't think the Joy Of Soaring or The Guide To
it will be your club instructors revealing the "secret" of the aim point.With this new fall weather approaching I do plan on flying my pure ASW27B on some nice triangles around South Florida, who knows, might just make a few more trips around 2901 taking the left and right banana. OBTPOB, don't worry, be happy, it doesn't need to be done note for note, but just keep the towplane somewhere near the "dot". Which, btw, will have a location that depends mostly on the pilot's seated height; also, you are the towpilot way up front, so
I was able to get to the gliderport today after a visit in the hospital this week, but I did have my IPAD next to me reading the BS in RAS, it actually lowers my blood pressure. At the port today I had a fill in tow pilot, I briefed him on the pilotsthat he might be towing and I asked the instructor if he had gone over SPOTS and DOTS with the student, they looked at me and asked me if I felt ok. I took a few minutes of my time to show them where the marker was to make the SPOT and I had some of my
Now Eric, these guys looked at me like I had flown in on one of the alien spaceships or one of those motorglider spaceships. OBTP
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