XPost: soc.history.war.misc, alt.war.world-war-two

Stacy Tidwell

Did the pilots/bombers who flew over Hiroshima and Nagasaki have any regret?

Paul Tibbets dropped the bomb on Hiroshima. Many people do not know he
bumped the regular Aircraft Commander, Bob Lewis, to the copilot’s seat before takeoff. Lewis did not like it, but he followed orders.

This still happens today. Any high-profile mission has a surplus of
volunteers — not a shortage.

Paul Tibbets started his career with a different kind of bombing. As a
young man, he flew low over beach crowds in an open cockpit biplane. He “bombed” them with Baby Ruth candy bars.

Tibbets was a pre-med student because his parents wanted him to become a doctor. But he never liked medicine. He soon dropped out of college and
joined the Air Corps. Before he left, a professor told his class:

Some people have too much empathy to be doctors. These people cannot
stay detached enough to perform their critical duties. Sometimes there
is a bigger purpose which requires you to set aside human emotion.

During pep talks before bombing missions, Tibbets often mentioned this “doctor” anecdote.

Tibbets led large bombing raids in Europe, North Africa, and the Pacific.

In 1975, General Tibbets told a reporter: I am proud the Bomb worked as perfectly as it did. I sleep clearly every night.

In 1995, Tibbets complained about the Smithsonian Institution. The
Smithsonian had created an exhibit which focused on Hiroshima casualties
rather than the brutality of Japanese military forces. General Tibbets
called it a damn big insult.

In 2005, General Tibbets told a reporter: We knew the Bomb was going to
kill people right and left. But my one driving interest was to do the
best job I could so we could end the war as quickly as possible.


General Tibbets’ grandson, Paul W. Tibbets, flew the B-2 at Whiteman
AFB, Missouri. He became Commander of the 393rd Bomb Squadron, his grandfather’s former unit. He was later promoted to Brigadier General.

In 2014, he became Deputy Director for Nuclear Operations at Offutt AFB, Nebraska.

I flew in SAC. My father flew in SAC before me. He was assigned to the
456th Bomb Group before SAC existed.

My wiseass copilot joked: I guess strategic bombing is the family business.

Civilians would routinely ask “Hiroshima” questions, especially after a
few cocktails. People assumed SAC aircrews lived under tremendous
strain. They surmised we were filled with emotional turmoil and dread.

The idea of dropping hydrogen bombs on Russians, Iranians, or North
Koreans must cause us terrible insomnia and guilt.

Uh, no.

Here is the truth…

If the President gives the order, those people will be vaporized.

When the Air Tasking Order (ATO) arrives from the Pentagon, Aircraft
Commanders will compete and politick to be chosen for those attack missions.

As aircrews, we spent our entire careers preparing for wartime sorties.
No pilot wants to relax at the Club while his buddies launch and fulfill
their duty.

Many civilians asked us about Hiroshima because they wanted to hear a touchy-feely answer. A few believe America should offer a heartfelt
apology to the Japanese Emperor.

Don’t hold your breath, Pal.

Some Americans want our military to protect the nation from harm —
without killing Bad Guys. In the real world, that does not work. It has
not worked for 65 centuries.


In World War II, many young Americans never came home.


The Japanese murdered 30 million innocent civilians.

20 million people died in China. Another 3.5 million were butchered in
the Dutch East Indies.

Everywhere they went, the Japanese brought death and destruction.


General Curtis LeMay told reporters:

The Japs killed 2,400 Americans at Pearl Harbor. They started this
war—not us.

We will kill every Japanese if that is what it takes to win this war.

President Roosevelt was a genial politico, but a muscular
Commander-in-Chief. Roosevelt was much more involved in strategic
bombing than most people realize.

FDR spoke German and French. He studied in Germany as a student. On
October 9, 1938, Roosevelt listened to Hitler’s Nuremberg Speech.

After listening to the broadcast, the President was now fully convinced:
Hitler was a lunatic.

On November 14, 1938, FDR convened a meeting at the White House with all
his top Generals and Admirals. He said: Aircraft! We are going to build thousands of long-range bombers. And we are going to start today,

The military officers were all surprised. Only Harry Hopkins expected
these plans.

President Roosevelt came from a long line of Navy men. He had been
Assistant Secretary of the Navy. His son, James, won the Navy Cross for extraordinary heroism in the Marine Corps during World War II. President
Teddy Roosevelt had written books about Navy operations including The
Naval War of 1812.

Roosevelt set aside his family’s personal history. A massive investment
in air power arose from that 1938 meeting. It signaled a sea change in
the U.S. military which persists today.

Throughout the war, President Roosevelt applied direct pressure to build
more bombers and drop more bombs. He said in 1942:

Germany and Japan asked for it. Now they are going to get it.

General Henry “Hap” Arnold was born and raised in Pennsylvania. The
Wright Brothers taught him to fly in 1911. He received his nickname from
a movie crew. As a young officer, he moonlighted as a stunt pilot.


In 1914, he was assigned to an infantry unit in the Philippines. His
quarters adjoined those of First Lieutenant George C. Marshall.

General Arnold was Chief of Staff of the Air Corps from 1938–1941. He
later became the only 5-star General in the history of the Air Force.

Where General Marshall was reserved and diplomatic, Hap Arnold was
extroverted and blunt. He once chewed out a subordinate with such
ferocity the man dropped dead on the spot. He later told General LeMay:

I liked your friend, General Hansell. But he failed to get results, so I
fired him.

If you fail to get results, I will fire you.

The military is not Sunday School.

Arnold objected to FDR giving so many bombers to the British and other
allies. Arnold believed the planes should be used to bolster American
air power. He forcefully stated his opinion on numerous occasions.

Finally, FDR had enough. In one meeting, the Commander-in-Chief told a
roomful of officers (including Arnold):

If there is anyone here who does not fully support my bomber plans, I’ll
find out soon enough. Then, I shall make him Governor of Guam.

Hap Arnold got the message. Loud and clear.

Even so, the Air Staff at the Pentagon retained their great admiration
for President Roosevelt. FDR once suggested bombing Japanese volcanoes
to release hot lava onto Japanese cities. General Arnold tactfully
deep-sixed the idea.

In the Pacific, General LeMay significantly increased daily missions.

Despite this increase in sorties, Navy Admirals told LeMay he already
had plenty of bombs in the Pacific. They did not see the need to
stockpile additional ordnance.

LeMay was like Arnold — overly blunt. LeMay told the Admirals:

When we run out of bombs, I will tell my aircrews to play golf. Then,
you can explain to Washington why the war has stalled.

The Admirals outranked LeMay. They were just as abrupt:

The Navy has higher priorities than delivering spare bombs for the Air
Corps.

LeMay flew to Washington in a B-29. He landed at National Airport
instead of Andrews Field. The B-29 had never been seen by most
civilians. It caused a stir.

LeMay went directly to the Pentagon. He presented his plans on butcher
paper.

Within hours, General Arnold and General Marshall were briefing the
President. The decision was made quickly. President Roosevelt said:

LeMay gets whatever he needs. I want him to burn Japan to the ground.

LeMay gave his men one night with their wives. They returned to the war
zone the next morning.

The Navy Admirals were very unhappy. LeMay had bucked the chain of
command and gone around them. But they obeyed orders.


LeMay received his bombs — shipload after shipload. He surprised the
Navy by using all of them. 90% of all U.S. bombs dropped in World War II
fell on Japan.

General LeMay told his aircrews: Make the rubble bounce.

Admirals King, Leahy, and Nimitz later changed course. They became
allies of LeMay after receiving new intelligence.

By the summer of 1945, U.S. code breakers were reading Japanese codes in
near real-time. Hundreds of messages from the highest levels of Japanese government (including the Emperor) had been decoded. These cables
repeatedly stated they were prepared to lose 20 million Japanese
defending the southern island of Kyushu.

The Japanese cabinet had already extended the military draft to males
aged 15 to 60. Female draftees were now aged 17–45. In addition, there
was a new program to transform senior citizens and children into armed defenders.

General Douglas MacArthur dismissed those intelligence decrypts as too pessimistic. MacArthur advocated a massive invasion of Japan to be led
by a military genius. Himself.

Nimitz and the other Admirals disagreed. In the intercepted messages,
they detected no signs the Japanese were ready to surrender.

Nimitz thought an invasion of Kyushu would be 20 times worse than
Okinawa. He sought to delay any invasion until 1946. Thus, Nimitz and
the Navy became tacit supporters of LeMay’s strategic bombing campaign.

In June 1945, a Japanese General was tasked to train civilians to defend against invasion. Purely by coincidence, he established his headquarters
in Hiroshima. When he saw the atomic bomb damage in August, he told
Emperor Hirohito:

I cannot defend Japan in the face of such overwhelming weaponry.

Conclusion

Japan had it coming.

If someone wants to rewrite the history of Hiroshima and Nagasaki using politically correct BS, he should consult Ivy League academics. Not
military veterans.

In August 1945, Winston Churchill ridiculed idealists and armchair philosophers:

I am surprised that very worthy people—but people who had no intention
of proceeding to the Japanese front themselves—should adopt the position
that rather than throw this atomic bomb, we should have sacrificed a
million American and a quarter of a million British lives.

Churchill got it 100% right.

In 2022, we still owe a debt of gratitude to General Curtis LeMay and
General Hap Arnold.

Millions of Americans and Britons are alive today because of strategic
bombing in 1945.

Addendum 1 of 4: Casualty Data


Addendum 2 of 4: Gallup Poll

85% of the public approved of the atomic bombings in 1945.


President Truman’s Chief of Staff told him in July 1945:

There is no decision to be made, Mr. President. If you order an
invasion, there will be enormous casualties.

When the American public finds out you refused to drop these these
special bombs — and they will find out — you will be impeached.

The Senate will not save you. Senators will lead the charge against you.

Addendum 3 of 4: SAC Anecdotes

My buddy, John Loggia, is a real character. He was an Air Force weather
officer before he graduated from pilot training.

Loggia was walking through an airport in civilian clothes. A bright-eyed
young woman stepped up with a clipboard.

Sir, would you sign our Greenpeace petition? We want to ban
thermonuclear weapons.

Loggia chuckled and said: Ban them? Lady, I drop them!

A sweet old granny called my bomb wing one day. She somehow got
connected to the Wing Commander. She said:

I read in the newspaper you are installing a large radio tower to talk
with your bombers and tankers. That is a very bad idea.

If Russians get hold of our newspaper, that could make your entire SAC
base a target.


Major Wynn: General, we have 180,000 pounds of fuel onboard. The jet
could blow up.

General LeMay: It wouldn’t dare.

Addendum 4 of 4: Further Reading



41.8K views1K upvotes18 shares133 comments
74K viewsView 433 upvotes
25 comments from
Tom Ryugo
and more

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

XPost: soc.history.war.misc, alt.war.world-war-two

"a425couple" wrote in message news:v%bMJ.39139$%[email protected]...

Stacy Tidwell

Did the pilots/bombers who flew over Hiroshima and Nagasaki have any regret?

--------------------

My father, an Ordnance company commander on Okinawa, drove his Jeep out to
pick up the crew of a B-29 that had made a difficult emergency landing
there. He said he'd never seen an uninjured crew so shocked and subdued. It might have been Bock's Car. Of course they couldn't tell him anything.

The way the Japanese had fought to the death for almost every island
strongly suggested that invading Japan would trigger an unprecedented bloodbath, far worse than the atomic bombing.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

XPost: soc.history.war.misc, alt.war.world-war-two

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message news:strl5n$gq$[email protected]...

The way the Japanese had fought to the death for almost every island
strongly suggested that invading Japan would trigger an unprecedented bloodbath, far worse than the atomic bombing.

---------------------------------

For perspective, taking the war's length as 6 years and death toll as 60 million, that's about 10 million per year or over 27,000 per DAY. The atomic bombings added less than a week's casualties and ended further killing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

XPost: soc.history.war.misc, alt.war.world-war-two

On 2/7/2022 9:33 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:

"a425couple"  wrote in message news:v%bMJ.39139$%[email protected]...

Stacy Tidwell

Did the pilots/bombers who flew over Hiroshima and Nagasaki have any
regret?

--------------------

My father, an Ordnance company commander on Okinawa, drove his Jeep out
to pick up the crew of a B-29 that had made a difficult emergency
landing there. He said he'd never seen an uninjured crew so shocked and subdued. It might have been Bock's Car. Of course they couldn't tell him anything.

The way the Japanese had fought to the death for almost every island
strongly suggested that invading Japan would trigger an unprecedented bloodbath, far worse than the atomic bombing.

Yes, indeed.
For the last year and a half of the war, Imperial Japan
was only trying to prove to the USA that they were willing
to endure more deaths on both sides, then we could stand.
They wanted the US to accept a peace that left the
militarists in power, without punishment, and their
occupation of China.

April Fool, the USA surprised them with a new weapon.

Also, the pacifists / anti bombers do not wish to consider
the over 100,000+ people living in Japanese occupied
lands that were being killed each month by the Japanese
or the fact that Japan still held about 100,000 US, UK,
Australia, and Dutch and they were rapidly killing
them. Japan was resolved to not let any POWs be
repatriated. We owed a debt to our brothers in arms
to try to save their lives.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

XPost: soc.history.war.misc, alt.war.world-war-two

"a425couple" wrote in message news:gVuMJ.8861$[email protected]...

On 2/7/2022 9:33 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:

"a425couple" wrote in message news:v%bMJ.39139$%[email protected]...

Stacy Tidwell

Did the pilots/bombers who flew over Hiroshima and Nagasaki have any
regret?

--------------------

My father, an Ordnance company commander on Okinawa, drove his Jeep out to pick up the crew of a B-29 that had made a difficult emergency landing
there. He said he'd never seen an uninjured crew so shocked and subdued.
It might have been Bock's Car. Of course they couldn't tell him anything.

The way the Japanese had fought to the death for almost every island
strongly suggested that invading Japan would trigger an unprecedented bloodbath, far worse than the atomic bombing.

Yes, indeed.
For the last year and a half of the war, Imperial Japan
was only trying to prove to the USA that they were willing
to endure more deaths on both sides, then we could stand.
They wanted the US to accept a peace that left the
militarists in power, without punishment, and their
occupation of China.

April Fool, the USA surprised them with a new weapon.

Also, the pacifists / anti bombers do not wish to consider
the over 100,000+ people living in Japanese occupied
lands that were being killed each month by the Japanese
or the fact that Japan still held about 100,000 US, UK,
Australia, and Dutch and they were rapidly killing
them. Japan was resolved to not let any POWs be
repatriated. We owed a debt to our brothers in arms
to try to save their lives.

---------------------------

https://irp.fas.org/eprint/arens/chap4.htm
"Furthermore, when the enemy actually lands, if we are ready to sacrifice a million men we will be able to inflict an equal number of casualties upon
them. If the enemy loses a million men, then the public opinion in America
will become inclined towards peace, and Japan will be able to gain peace
with comparatively advantageous conditions."

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

XPost: soc.history.war.misc, alt.war.world-war-two

"a425couple" wrote in message news:gVuMJ.8861$[email protected]...

Japan was resolved to not let any POWs be
repatriated. We owed a debt to our brothers in arms
to try to save their lives.

----------------------

http://www.mansell.com/pow_resources/Formosa/taiwandocs.html

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

XPost: soc.history.war.misc, alt.war.world-war-two

On 2/8/2022 9:11 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:

"a425couple"  wrote in message news:gVuMJ.8861$[email protected]...

On 2/7/2022 9:33 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:

"a425couple"  wrote in message news:v%bMJ.39139$%[email protected]...

Stacy Tidwell

Did the pilots/bombers who flew over Hiroshima and Nagasaki have any
regret?

--------------------

My father, an Ordnance company commander on Okinawa, drove his Jeep
out to pick up the crew of a B-29 that had made a difficult emergency
landing there. He said he'd never seen an uninjured crew so shocked
and subdued. It might have been Bock's Car. Of course they couldn't
tell him anything.

The way the Japanese had fought to the death for almost every island
strongly suggested that invading Japan would trigger an unprecedented
bloodbath, far worse than the atomic bombing.

Yes, indeed.
For the last year and a half of the war, Imperial Japan
was only trying to prove to the USA that they were willing
to endure more deaths on both sides, then we could stand.
They wanted the US to accept a peace that left the
militarists in power, without punishment, and their
occupation of China.

April Fool, the USA surprised them with a new weapon.

Also, the pacifists / anti bombers do not wish to consider
the over 100,000+ people living in Japanese occupied
lands that were being killed each month by the Japanese
or the fact that Japan still held about 100,000 US, UK,
Australia, and Dutch and they were rapidly killing
them.  Japan was resolved to not let any POWs be
repatriated.  We owed a debt to our brothers in arms
to try to save their lives.

---------------------------

https://irp.fas.org/eprint/arens/chap4.htm
"Furthermore, when the enemy actually lands, if we are ready to
sacrifice a million men we will be able to inflict an equal number of casualties upon them. If the enemy loses a million men, then the public opinion in America will become inclined towards peace, and Japan will be
able to gain peace with comparatively advantageous conditions."

I think that is a really outstanding source.
Thank you for giving it.

by the way:

What if Operation Downfall happened? - SpaceBattles https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/what-if...
Nov 03, 2020 · The US intelligence services got so much wrong about the
state of Japanese preparations that a study conducted by Marine Major
Mark P. Arens in the '90s concluded that the planned landing by the V Amphibious Corps (and by extension, the 6th Army as a whole) would have
just straight up failed.

Alternate History Ideas and Discussion | Page 11 - The Sietch https://www.the-sietch.com/index.php?threads/...
Oct 26, 2020 · To quote from the thesis of Marine Major Mark P. Arens's
study of the V Marine Amphibious Corps' proposed role in the plan: "If Operation Olympic had been executed, as planned, on 1 November 1945, it
would have been the largest bloodbath in American history. Although
American forces had superior fire power and were better trained and
equipped than …

HyperWar: Victory over Japan: Contents - ibiblio.org https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/PTO/FatLady/index.html
V [Marine] Amphibious Corps Planning for Operation Olympic and the Role
of Intelligence in Support of Planning, Major Mark P. Arens, USMCR The
Japanese Plan to Defend Kyushu; Japanese Plan for September Defense of
Kyushu, Report, Dec 1945. "Ketsu-go" -- the Japanese Army Air Force Plan
[notes on Japanese monograph] CORONET-- the Invasion of Honshu

Japanese Mass Suicides - Atomic Heritage Foundation https://www.atomicheritage.org/history/japanese-mass-suicides
Jul 28, 2016 · Major Mark P. Arens, V [Marine] Amphibious Corps Planning
for Operation Olympic and the Role of Intelligence in Support of
Planning, USMCR [MCIA], 1996. Ryukyu Shimpo, Ota

V Amphibious Corps | Military Wiki | Fandom https://military-history.fandom.com/wiki/V_Amphibious_Corps
Arens, Major Mark P., USMCR (1995). "Chapter 2: V Amphibious Corps" . V [Marine] Amphibious Corps Planning for Operation Olympic and the Role of Intelligence in Support of Planning .

V Amphibious Corps - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_Amphibious_Corps
Arens, Major Mark P., USMCR (1995). "Chapter 2: V Amphibious Corps". V
[Marine] Amphibious Corps Planning for Operation Olympic and the Role of Intelligence in Support of Planning. Marine Corps Staff and Command
College Written in fulfillment of a requirement for the Marine Corps
Staff and Command College.

If Operation Downfall happened ... - SpaceBattles Forums https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/if...
Dec 19, 2020 · According to Marine Major Mark P. Arens, the Japanese
planned to send out waves of 350 to 400 planes every hour (this probably applied to the 6,225 kamikazes and conventional bombers designated to
target the assault shipping). According to JM-85 pp. 19-21, IJA/IJN air

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)