When I looked up how to jump a car battery, they tell you WHAT to do, but
not WHY, which is infuriating as it's harder to remember unless you know
why.
First they say the cars shouldn't touch.
Why?
Then they said positive first.
Why?
Once started, they say remove the negative cable first.
Why?
And what happens if you tap water instead of distilled?
When I looked up how to jump a car battery, they tell you WHAT to do, but
not WHY, which is infuriating as it's harder to remember unless you know
why.
https://blog.napacanada.com/en/how-to-safely-and-quickly-recharge-a-dead-car-battery/
First they say the cars shouldn't touch.
Why?
Then they said positive first.
Why?
Once started, they say remove the negative cable first.
Why?
Here, they say adding water damages the batteries. Why? https://www.uetechnologies.com/add-water-to-battery-before-or-after-charging/
And how often do you need to add water?
This says to add water after every ten charging cycles?
Isn't that like every ten days?
And how do you know how much to add?
They say add water to the "splash plate" but what is that?
They say the six chambers produce 2.1 volts each for 12.6 volts?
Isn't it more than that?
They say adding water before charging will make it overflow.
Does it really change the water level that much from dead to charged?
And what happens if you tap water instead of distilled?
When I looked up how to jump a car battery, they tell you WHAT to do, but
not WHY, which is infuriating as it's harder to remember unless you know
why.
https://blog.napacanada.com/en/how-to-safely-and-quickly-recharge-a-dead-car-battery/
First they say the cars shouldn't touch.
Why?
Then they said positive first.
Why?
Once started, they say remove the negative cable first.
Why?
Here, they say adding water damages the batteries. Why? https://www.uetechnologies.com/add-water-to-battery-before-or-after-charging/
And how often do you need to add water?
This says to add water after every ten charging cycles?
Isn't that like every ten days?
On 18/01/23 14:35, mike wrote:
When I looked up how to jump a car battery, they tell you WHAT to do,
but
not WHY, which is infuriating as it's harder to remember unless you know
why.
First they say the cars shouldn't touch.
Why?
Then they said positive first.
Why?
Once started, they say remove the negative cable first.
Why?
These three questions only need one answer.
In case there is any hydrogen gas that has developed in the battery and
may be still concentrated enough to burn,
any spark from completing the circuit should be made at some distance
from the battery. That is, but connecting the earth to some metal part
of the chassis, not to the battery terminal itself.
The chassis is (usually) negative, which is why that is the first and
last contact point.
And what happens if you tap water instead of distilled?
If there is any ionic content in your tap water, it is likely to
precipitate as conductive salts in the bottom of your battery,
increasing the self-discharge rate. Here in Sydney, our water is clean
enough not to need to bother - any effect on battery life is negligible.
And how do you know how much to add?
They say add water to the "splash plate" but what is that?
In case there is any hydrogen gas that has developed in the battery and
may be still concentrated enough to burn, any spark from completing the circuit should be made at some distance from the battery. That is, but connecting the earth to some metal part of the chassis, not to the
battery terminal itself.
The chassis is (usually) negative, which is why that is the first and
last contact point.
I'm not disputing that since I'm the one asking the question, but didn't
that article above say the opposite?
They said to connect a negative cable last to the chassis of the dead
car.
On 1/17/23 20:34, Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ wrote:
The metal frame of the car is permanently connected to the negative
terminal of the car battery. If you connect the black negative jump
cable first, then when you try to connected the red positive jump cable
you can accidentally drop the big clip into the engine compartment and
cause a fire or battery explosion.
Excellent explanation!
I always did positive first. I will switch!
Last time I had a battery that was not sealed was probably 30 years ago.
Tap water can have chemicals.
The pickup battery isn't sealed
When I looked up how to jump a car battery, they tell you WHAT to do, but
not WHY, which is infuriating as it's harder to remember unless you know
why.
https://blog.napacanada.com/en/how-to-safely-and-quickly-recharge-a-dead-car-battery/
First they say the cars shouldn't touch.
Why?
Then they said positive first.
Why?
Once started, they say remove the negative cable first.
Why?
Here, they say adding water damages the batteries. Why? https://www.uetechnologies.com/add-water-to-battery-before-or-after-charging/
And how often do you need to add water?
This says to add water after every ten charging cycles?
Isn't that like every ten days?
And how do you know how much to add?
They say add water to the "splash plate" but what is that?
They say the six chambers produce 2.1 volts each for 12.6 volts?
Isn't it more than that?
They say adding water before charging will make it overflow.
Does it really change the water level that much from dead to charged?
And what happens if you tap water instead of distilled?
De-ionized water is purer than distilled water.
On 2023-01-18 05:34, Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ wrote:
De-ionized water is purer than distilled water.
The reverse.
When I looked up how to jump a car battery, they tell you WHAT to do, but
not WHY, which is infuriating as it's harder to remember unless you know
why.
https://blog.napacanada.com/en/how-to-safely-and-quickly-recharge-a-dead-car-battery/
First they say the cars shouldn't touch.
Why?
Then they said positive first.
Why?
Once started, they say remove the negative cable first.
Why?
Here, they say adding water damages the batteries. Why? >https://www.uetechnologies.com/add-water-to-battery-before-or-after-charging/
And how often do you need to add water?
This says to add water after every ten charging cycles?
Isn't that like every ten days?
And how do you know how much to add?
They say add water to the "splash plate" but what is that?
They say the six chambers produce 2.1 volts each for 12.6 volts?
Isn't it more than that?
They say adding water before charging will make it overflow.
Does it really change the water level that much from dead to charged?
And what happens if you tap water instead of distilled?
Carlos E.R. wrote on 1/18/2023 5:19 AM:
On 2023-01-18 05:34, Mighty? Wannabe? wrote:
De-ionized water is purer than distilled water.
The reverse.
De-ionized water is pure than distilled water.
https://bescocommercial.com/di-water/deionized-vs-distilled/
Two common types of treated water are distilled and deionized water.
Here are some similarities and differences that are key to understanding >them:
��� Both distilled and deionized water are fit to drink.
��� Deionized water is purer than distilled water.
��� Distilled water conducts electricity, while deionized water does not.
Carlos E.R. wrote on 1/18/2023 5:19 AM:
On 2023-01-18 05:34, Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ wrote:
De-ionized water is purer than distilled water.
The reverse.
De-ionized water is pure than distilled water.
https://bescocommercial.com/di-water/deionized-vs-distilled/
Two common types of treated water are distilled and deionized water.
Here are some similarities and differences that are key to
understanding them:
Both distilled and deionized water are fit to drink.
Deionized water is purer than distilled water.
Distilled water conducts electricity, while deionized water does not.
In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 18 Jan 2023 07:09:56 -0500, Mighty? Wannabe?
<@.> wrote:
Carlos E.R. wrote on 1/18/2023 5:19 AM:Indeed it does say that, but it doesn't give much in the way of reasons. Pretty much proof by assertion.
On 2023-01-18 05:34, Mighty? Wannabe? wrote:De-ionized water is pure than distilled water.
De-ionized water is purer than distilled water.The reverse.
https://bescocommercial.com/di-water/deionized-vs-distilled/
Two common types of treated water are distilled and deionized water.
Here are some similarities and differences that are key to understanding
them:
Both distilled and deionized water are fit to drink.
Deionized water is purer than distilled water.
Distilled water conducts electricity, while deionized water does not.
OTOH, my googling yielded contradictory results!!!!
I haven't read them yet, or looked for tie breakers, becusae I think
it's worth reporting the mere fact that it has contradictory results:
Here is my search https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=deionized+water+vs+distilled+water+for+batteries
and, not counting the Q&A part, these are the first two hits.
Water that has been purified of dissolved minerals and salts through a process called deionization is recognized as the best choice for
maintaining lead-acid batteries. Deionization eliminates more impurities
from water than distillation or conventional filters.
The Perfect “Solution” for Maintaining Your Lead-Acid Batteries https://www.crown.com › articles › energy-management
vs.
Can you use Deionized Water in Batteries?
https://www.phlsci.com › news › articles › can-you-use-...
Oct 12, 2021 — Whilst deionized water is not as pure as distilled water;
it is perfect for industrial battery watering. It is a cost-effective
method
Plainlly, the second article was written by a Brit, or someone from the Commonwealth. As an American, I should favor the first article, but I
don't, so I will control my patriotism and wait for more information.
If the only ions in distilled but not de-ionized water are hyrogen,
oxygen and/or hydroxide ions, I don't see how they would cause a probem
in a battery. Doesn't any water in a lead acid battery ionize into
those very ions? And how could there be other ions than those three in distilled water? Maybe the answer is in the articles, but I've already spent a lot of time on this thread, so I'll either wait until you guys resolve this, or I'll come back later with renewed energy.
micky wrote on 1/18/2023 7:36 AM:
In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 18 Jan 2023 07:09:56 -0500, Mighty? Wannabe?
<@.> wrote:
Carlos E.R. wrote on 1/18/2023 5:19 AM:Indeed it does say that, but it doesn't give much in the way of reasons.
On 2023-01-18 05:34, Mighty? Wannabe? wrote:De-ionized water is pure than distilled water.
De-ionized water is purer than distilled water.The reverse.
https://bescocommercial.com/di-water/deionized-vs-distilled/
Two common types of treated water are distilled and deionized water.
Here are some similarities and differences that are key to
understanding
them:
Both distilled and deionized water are fit to drink.
Deionized water is purer than distilled water.
Distilled water conducts electricity, while deionized water
does not.
Pretty much proof by assertion.
OTOH, my googling yielded contradictory results!!!!
I haven't read them yet, or looked for tie breakers, becusae I think
it's worth reporting the mere fact that it has contradictory results:
Here is my search
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=deionized+water+vs+distilled+water+for+batteries
and, not counting the Q&A part, these are the first two hits.
Water that has been purified of dissolved minerals and salts through a
process called deionization is recognized as the best choice for
maintaining lead-acid batteries. Deionization eliminates more impurities
from water than distillation or conventional filters.
The Perfect “Solution” for Maintaining Your Lead-Acid Batteries
https://www.crown.com › articles › energy-management
vs.
Can you use Deionized Water in Batteries?
https://www.phlsci.com › news › articles › can-you-use-...
Oct 12, 2021 — Whilst deionized water is not as pure as distilled water; >> it is perfect for industrial battery watering. It is a cost-effective
method
Plainlly, the second article was written by a Brit, or someone from the
Commonwealth. As an American, I should favor the first article, but I
don't, so I will control my patriotism and wait for more information.
If the only ions in distilled but not de-ionized water are hyrogen,
oxygen and/or hydroxide ions, I don't see how they would cause a probem
in a battery. Doesn't any water in a lead acid battery ionize into
those very ions? And how could there be other ions than those three in
distilled water? Maybe the answer is in the articles, but I've already >> spent a lot of time on this thread, so I'll either wait until you guys
resolve this, or I'll come back later with renewed energy.
People have the wrong impression that "distilled water" is the purest
form of water but that's not true. Common distilled water is obtained
by boiling water and collecting the condensed steam. The condensed
steam is not 100% pure H2O because there are chemicals in the water
with lower boiling point than H2O that will come over in the
distillation process.
The best way to get deionized water is to start the deionization
process with distilled water because there will be a lot less
impurities to remove, and distilled water is cheap and easy to get.
You don't get pure H2O by using a home water deionizer in your water
pipe using resin beads because most of the impurities will still pass
through the resin beads.
You can tell deionized water is purer simply by the price. I can get a
gallon (4L) of distilled water from a supermarket for about $1, but I
have to go to an auto-parts store to get deionized water for about $6.
https://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/turbo-power-deionized-water-3-78-l-0293003p.html
https://bescocommercial.com/di-water/deionized-vs-distilled/
On Wed, 18 Jan 2023 07:09:56 -0500, Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ wrote:
https://bescocommercial.com/di-water/deionized-vs-distilled/I'll see your URL and raise you two:
https://www.uswatersystems.com/deionized-water-vs-distilled-water
"Deionized water and Distilled water are both types of extremely pure
water, but they are produced in two distinctly different ways. Depending
on the source water, distilled water can be more pure than deionized water – but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's better. There are pros and cons to using deionized water vs. distilled water for particular
processes, particularly when it comes to cost and efficiency."
https://americanhomewater.com/what-is-deionized-water-and-what-is-it-used- for/
"The main difference between these two types of water comes in the form of purity. Deionized water is the purest form of water available and, in some cases, can be considered a type of synthetic water. However, distilled
water does not contain any impurities and therefore has fewer contaminants than deionized water."
It's a toss.
There is a good possibility the rectifiers (diodes) in your alternator
could fry because it is recommended that your car be running when you
jump start another car. The rectifiers of your car is supplying electric current from the alternator and can overload due to the jump start
operation.
There is also the possibility of the voltage drop so low momentarily
that your car stereo's anti-theft system kicks in, and you'll have to go
back to the car dealership to enter the anti-theft code. The anti-theft system detects the zero voltage when it is ripped from the dashboard.
Indeed it does say that, but it doesn't give much in the way of reasons.De-ionized water is pure than distilled water.De-ionized water is purer than distilled water.The reverse.
https://bescocommercial.com/di-water/deionized-vs-distilled/
Two common types of treated water are distilled and deionized water.
Here are some similarities and differences that are key to understanding >>> them:
Both distilled and deionized water are fit to drink.
Deionized water is purer than distilled water.
Distilled water conducts electricity, while deionized water does not.
Pretty much proof by assertion.
OTOH, my googling yielded contradictory results!!!!
I haven't read them yet, or looked for tie breakers, becusae I think
it's worth reporting the mere fact that it has contradictory results:
Here is my search
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=deionized+water+vs+distilled+water+for+batteries
and, not counting the Q&A part, these are the first two hits.
Water that has been purified of dissolved minerals and salts through a
process called deionization is recognized as the best choice for
maintaining lead-acid batteries. Deionization eliminates more impurities
from water than distillation or conventional filters.
The Perfect “Solution” for Maintaining Your Lead-Acid Batteries
https://www.crown.com › articles › energy-management
vs.
Can you use Deionized Water in Batteries?
https://www.phlsci.com › news › articles › can-you-use-...
Oct 12, 2021 — Whilst deionized water is not as pure as distilled water; >> it is perfect for industrial battery watering. It is a cost-effective
method
Plainlly, the second article was written by a Brit, or someone from the
Commonwealth. As an American, I should favor the first article, but I
don't, so I will control my patriotism and wait for more information.
If the only ions in distilled but not de-ionized water are hyrogen,
oxygen and/or hydroxide ions, I don't see how they would cause a probem
in a battery. Doesn't any water in a lead acid battery ionize into
those very ions? And how could there be other ions than those three in
distilled water? Maybe the answer is in the articles, but I've already
spent a lot of time on this thread, so I'll either wait until you guys
resolve this, or I'll come back later with renewed energy.
People have the wrong impression that "distilled water" is the purest
form of water but that's not true. Common distilled water is obtained by boiling water and collecting the condensed steam. The condensed steam is
not 100% pure H2O because there are chemicals in the water with lower
boiling point than H2O that will come over in the distillation process.
The best way to get deionized water is to start the deionization process
with distilled water because there will be a lot less impurities to
remove, and distilled water is cheap and easy to get.
You don't get pure H2O by using a home water deionizer in your water
pipe using resin beads because most of the impurities will still pass
through the resin beads.
You can tell deionized water is purer simply by the price. I can get a
gallon (4L) of distilled water from a supermarket for about $1, but I
have to go to an auto-parts store to get deionized water for about $6.
https://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/turbo-power-deionized-water-3-78-l-0293003p.html
I always did positive first. I will switch!
Think it out first - then decide.
MightyWannabe wrote:
There is a good possibility the rectifiers (diodes) in your alternatorIn the recipient car, when the engine finally starts, I was told since I
could fry because it is recommended that your car be running when you
jump start another car. The rectifiers of your car is supplying electric
current from the alternator and can overload due to the jump start
operation.
was young that the best way to "absorb" some of the excess current in the first few seconds is for the recipient to turn on the headlights.
This seems counterintuitive from the recipient's standpoint in terms of "using" current but the theory is that the "B" sense circuit of the alternator (which is just a coil of wire in the end) senses a "very low" battery so it tells the alternator to put out a "very high" current, whose initial burst could ("they say") fry the rectifying wheatstone diodes.
Maybe it makes sense to the electronics folks who are asked to comment.
There is also the possibility of the voltage drop so low momentarilyBut what happens each time you replace the battery every few years?
that your car stereo's anti-theft system kicks in, and you'll have to go
back to the car dealership to enter the anti-theft code. The anti-theft
system detects the zero voltage when it is ripped from the dashboard.
Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ <@.> wrote:
Didn't the conversation recently happen that rain water (now that "acidPeople have the wrong impression that "distilled water" is the purestIndeed it does say that, but it doesn't give much in the way of reasons. >>> Pretty much proof by assertion.De-ionized water is pure than distilled water.De-ionized water is purer than distilled water.The reverse.
https://bescocommercial.com/di-water/deionized-vs-distilled/
Two common types of treated water are distilled and deionized water.
Here are some similarities and differences that are key to understanding >>>> them:
   Both distilled and deionized water are fit to drink.
   Deionized water is purer than distilled water.
   Distilled water conducts electricity, while deionized water does not.
OTOH, my googling yielded contradictory results!!!!
I haven't read them yet, or looked for tie breakers, becusae I think
it's worth reporting the mere fact that it has contradictory results:
Here is my search
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=deionized+water+vs+distilled+water+for+batteries
and, not counting the Q&A part, these are the first two hits.
Water that has been purified of dissolved minerals and salts through a
process called deionization is recognized as the best choice for
maintaining lead-acid batteries. Deionization eliminates more impurities >>> from water than distillation or conventional filters.
The Perfect “Solution†for Maintaining Your Lead-Acid Batteries >>> https://www.crown.com › articles › energy-management
vs.
Can you use Deionized Water in Batteries?
https://www.phlsci.com › news › articles › can-you-use-...
Oct 12, 2021 — Whilst deionized water is not as pure as distilled water;
it is perfect for industrial battery watering. It is a cost-effective
method
Plainlly, the second article was written by a Brit, or someone from the
Commonwealth. As an American, I should favor the first article, but I
don't, so I will control my patriotism and wait for more information.
If the only ions in distilled but not de-ionized water are hyrogen,
oxygen and/or hydroxide ions, I don't see how they would cause a probem
in a battery. Doesn't any water in a lead acid battery ionize into
those very ions? And how could there be other ions than those three in
distilled water? Maybe the answer is in the articles, but I've already >>> spent a lot of time on this thread, so I'll either wait until you guys
resolve this, or I'll come back later with renewed energy.
form of water but that's not true. Common distilled water is obtained by
boiling water and collecting the condensed steam. The condensed steam is
not 100% pure H2O because there are chemicals in the water with lower
boiling point than H2O that will come over in the distillation process.
The best way to get deionized water is to start the deionization process
with distilled water because there will be a lot less impurities to
remove, and distilled water is cheap and easy to get.
You don't get pure H2O by using a home water deionizer in your water
pipe using resin beads because most of the impurities will still pass
through the resin beads.
You can tell deionized water is purer simply by the price. I can get a
gallon (4L) of distilled water from a supermarket for about $1, but I
have to go to an auto-parts store to get deionized water for about $6.
https://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/turbo-power-deionized-water-3-78-l-0293003p.html
rain" is no longer a thing, thanks to the EPA), is just as good as
distilled water nowadays?
Sure, it's slightly acidic at pH 5.6 (if it's not acid rain, that is, as
acid rain is pH 5.5 or lower by EPA definition someone found out), but a
bit of weak carbonic acid (from the dissolved carbon dioxide) won't hurt
the strong sulfuric acid in a lead:acid battery, will it?
I'm guessing that rain water nowadays, unless you live within a few miles
of a volcano (and you don't) or a coal-fired power plant (and you don't),
is pretty damn close to distilled water in most parts of the country.
Sure rain water will have a bit of "something here" and "something there" based on the dissolved gases in the atmosphere, but so will any bottle of distilled water that has ever been open to the exact same atmosphere.
Someone said there are "particles" in the rain water, but I don't believe that as you can't see any when you collect it outside and even if there
were, a coffee filter would filter them out just fine (and who says store bought distilled water doesn't have particles?).
Sure, both might have particles, but I can't imagine they could matter
given how few there would be if you can't even see them with your eyes.
But I don't know. I'm just trying to reason this stuff out like the rest of you. If there's someone who actually knows what he's talking about (not
me), then that person should set me straight before I go on with this line
of reasoning.
People have the wrong impression that "distilled water" is the purest
form of water but that's not true. Common distilled water is obtained by boiling water and collecting the condensed steam. The condensed steam is
not 100% pure H2O because there are chemicals in the water with lower
boiling point than H2O that will come over in the distillation process.
The best way to get deionized water is to start the deionization process
with distilled water because there will be a lot less impurities to
remove, and distilled water is cheap and easy to get.
"Deionized water and Distilled water are both types of extremely pure
water, but they are produced in two distinctly different ways.
You can make do with rain water or tap water to top up the lead-acid
battery but doing it too often will accumulate too much impurities in
the battery fluid.
You can make do with distilled water but that is not as good as
deionized water, which technically should be processed from distilled water.
A responsible auto shop or car dealership should use deionized water to dilute the sulfuric acid to use as battery fluid.
It had to do with accidentally ....aha it had to do with
accidentally touching both cables to the frame of the car. Say you've
hooked it up to the car with the good battery, and then you connect the negative first. Then while you're trying to connect the positive (and sometimes that's not easy. It has a cover or it's tucked away, or you
can see it but can't get the clamp on, you touch the metal body or
engine or frame of the car. Now you have both cables touching the frame while at the other end, at the car you are using to jump your own, they
are connected to a good battery. Big spark.
rbowman <[email protected]> wrote:
"Deionized water and Distilled water are both types of extremely pureHas anyone wondered whether the "pure" water will be "leaching" out the chemistry of the lead:acid plates inside the battery?
water, but they are produced in two distinctly different ways.
Having owned a pool, all water chemistry tends toward equilibrium, and dissolved salts (metal and a non metal) are no exception to the rule.
So the more pure the water, the more it will dissolve a bit of that
lead:acid compound that they slather on the plates between rubber sheets.
Has anyone thought of that?
Peter wrote on 1/18/2023 10:53 AM:
rbowman <[email protected]> wrote:
"Deionized water and Distilled water are both types of extremely pureHas anyone wondered whether the "pure" water will be "leaching" out the
water, but they are produced in two distinctly different ways.
chemistry of the lead:acid plates inside the battery?
Having owned a pool, all water chemistry tends toward equilibrium, and
dissolved salts (metal and a non metal) are no exception to the rule.
So the more pure the water, the more it will dissolve a bit of that
lead:acid compound that they slather on the plates between rubber sheets.
Has anyone thought of that?
Have you thought of using corncob instead of toilet paper? Corncob is
cheap, natural and reusable. LOL!!!
Although deionized water is 6 times more expensive than distilled water,
but one gallon goes a long way.
Use deionized water if you want the best for your lead-acid battery.
micky <[email protected]> wrote:
It had to do with accidentally ....aha it had to do with
accidentally touching both cables to the frame of the car. Say you've
hooked it up to the car with the good battery, and then you connect the
negative first. Then while you're trying to connect the positive (and
sometimes that's not easy. It has a cover or it's tucked away, or you
can see it but can't get the clamp on, you touch the metal body or
engine or frame of the car. Now you have both cables touching the frame
while at the other end, at the car you are using to jump your own, they
are connected to a good battery. Big spark.
Well. That makes sense. So maybe my initial reasoning was wrong that the
last cable attach will spark, and you want that spark away from the
battery, so that would have to be the negative cable.
However, you also said that the DISCHARGED battery is the one with all the >hydrogen, so that means that you want to put the donor battery cable on
last (because that's where the spark will be and the donor battery is >presumed to have less hydrogen outgassing).
But then you made a good point that if you put the positive on first, then >anything any negative touches by accident, will spark where it touched.
So now we have one good reason to put the negative on last and specifically >the negative on the DONOR car on last by one line of reasoning, and by >another line of reasoning, we have the positive going on last, presumably >also on the donor car because it's going to spark.
Which is the correct line of reasoning?
(A) Put the negative on the donor car last because that spark is least
likely to ignite hydrogen gases from the discharged battery or
(B) Put the positive on the donor car last because you have less chance
of accidentally shorting the circuit & the donor has less outgassing
Which is more logical?
Overall, does ANYONE have ANY real data that tap water actually degrades a car batter enough for someone to actually measure the results in 5 years?
On 18-01-2023 09:40 Clifford Heath <[email protected]> wrote:
In case there is any hydrogen gas that has developed in the battery
and may be still concentrated enough to burn, any spark from
completing the circuit should be made at some distance from the
battery. That is, but connecting the earth to some metal part of the
chassis, not to the battery terminal itself.
Thank you for trying to explain why they said here to connect + first. https://blog.napacanada.com/en/how-to-safely-and-quickly-recharge-a-dead-car-battery/
Isn't there a spark no matter what cable is the last point to be connected?
The chassis is (usually) negative, which is why that is the first and
last contact point.
I'm not disputing that since I'm the one asking the question, but didn't
that article above say the opposite?
They said to connect a negative cable last to the chassis of the dead car.
On 1/18/2023 11:18 AM, Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ wrote:
Peter wrote on 1/18/2023 10:53 AM:
rbowman <[email protected]> wrote:
"Deionized water and Distilled water are both types of extremely pureHas anyone wondered whether the "pure" water will be "leaching" out the
water, but they are produced in two distinctly different ways.
chemistry of the lead:acid plates inside the battery?
Having owned a pool, all water chemistry tends toward equilibrium, and
dissolved salts (metal and a non metal) are no exception to the rule.
So the more pure the water, the more it will dissolve a bit of that
lead:acid compound that they slather on the plates between rubber
sheets.
Has anyone thought of that?
Have you thought of using corncob instead of toilet paper? Corncob is
cheap, natural and reusable. LOL!!!
Although deionized water is 6 times more expensive than distilled
water, but one gallon goes a long way.
Use deionized water if you want the best for your lead-acid battery.
Think those costs are off with two different sources and sizes.
Google sez this:
"However, in general, distilled water is more expensive than deionized
water. This is because it takes more time and energy to produce
distilled water, and it also requires special equipment that not all companies have."
When I worked in the lab we had a distilled water line to every bench
but it was replaced by deionized water to save cost.
Been decades since I had a car battery that needed water but I am
hearing it is better to put distilled or demineralized water in your
car radiator if needed as minerals are bad there too.
Which is the correct line of reasoning?
(A) Put the negative on the donor car last because that spark is least
likely to ignite hydrogen gases from the discharged battery or
(B) Put the positive on the donor car last because you have less chance
of accidentally shorting the circuit & the donor has less outgassing
Which is more logical?
<[email protected]> wrote:
I always did positive first. I will switch!
Think it out first - then decide.
I'm thinking... I'm thinking... I'm trying to think this thing out.
I don't think it matters all that much which cable goes first or last.
As far as I can think about it, the last connection is the one that sparks. And that means the first disconnection is the one that sparks.
Since you don't want that spark to be near any concentration of flammable hydrogen gas, I guess the theory that I'll concoct is you want the negative cable to be as far from that hydrogen gas as possible.
That makes it the negative cable to be the last to connect.
And the first to disconnect.
Now, if the theory is to proceed accordingly, we have to decide which
battery has the most chance of having excess hydrogen gas.
The answer likely is neither will have any, but if we have to choose, which battery will have more hydrogen outgassing?
(A) The donor battery (which is likely already topped off) or
(B) The recipient battery (which is likely taking the greater charge)
The answer seems, to me, to be neither battery will have excess hydrogen
gas, but if I was forced to choose, I guess the battery being charged the most has the most excess hydrogen gas, which would clearly be the donor.
All this is just "thinking it out" so tell me if I'm wrong so I learn from your expertise (the royal your that is, as everyone has something to say).
Has anyone thought of that?
Have you thought of using corncob instead of toilet paper? Corncob is
cheap, natural and reusable. LOL!!!
Although deionized water is 6 times more expensive than distilled water,
but one gallon goes a long way.
Use deionized water if you want the best for your lead-acid battery.
Therefore, as I have explained before, the highest grade of pure water
is deionized water made from distilled water.
Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ <@.> wrote:
I haven't used toilet paper in years.Has anyone thought of that?Have you thought of using corncob instead of toilet paper? Corncob is
cheap, natural and reusable. LOL!!!
There's no need for TP for anyone who is retired and lives at home most of the time because they can just use this which works wonders for cleaning. https://www.amazon.com/Diverter-Portable-Cleaning-Attachment-Polished/dp/B097G9BVQ1/
And no, you dirty minded pervert (I say that jokingly because I know what you're thinking when you saw it) it doesn't go inside of anything.
It stays on the outside.
And it's warm water.
For that quick and easy fifty buck investment, you never need to buy toilet paper for the rest of your life, and, better yet, you're cleaner (by far) than you would have been had you used toilet paper in the first place.
These things should be standard attachments, IMHO, in all bathrooms.
And yes, I recycle the humanure too. And the 1:1:1 NPK urine.
Along with it goes all the kitchen scraps (nothing goes down the drain).
Brown, then green, then wood chips, then brown, green, chips anew.
Repeat until the closed bucket is full.
Then fertilize outside as needed.
And yes, the fruit trees are all fertilized by humanure/urine/scraps.
And the process starts anew.
Although deionized water is 6 times more expensive than distilled water,I'm not disagreeing but I am pointing out the fewer the ionic
but one gallon goes a long way.
concentration, it seems logical the water will demineralize the battery
just as it does with a pool.
Use deionized water if you want the best for your lead-acid battery.The less saturated the water is, the more it demineralizes the battery. The CSI or LSI is a very common issue with pools demineralizing for example.
For a pool, we are careful to manage the calcium saturation index (often specifically the Langelier Saturation Index) to as near to the zero
crossing point as we can, keeping in mind it changes due to a half dozen
key components such as the temperature, pH, total carbonate alkalinity, calcium hardness, cyanuric acid level (for outdoor pools), total dissolved solids (particularly high for salt water chlorine generator pools) & borate (if any).
Why wouldn't demineralized water demineralize a battery?
Bear in mind I don't;t know the answer - I'm just looking at the problem
set logically.
On 2023-01-18 04:35, mike wrote:
When I looked up how to jump a car battery, they tell you WHAT to do,
but
not WHY, which is infuriating as it's harder to remember unless you know
why.
https://blog.napacanada.com/en/how-to-safely-and-quickly-recharge-a-dead-car-battery/
First they say the cars shouldn't touch.
Why?
Then they said positive first.
Why?
Because of the danger of touching metal with the positive lead when the
two negatives are connected.
This assumes the car has negative ground, although a positive ground is
very rare in cars nowdays.
Once started, they say remove the negative cable first.
Why?
Same reason.
Here, they say adding water damages the batteries. Why?
https://www.uetechnologies.com/add-water-to-battery-before-or-after-charging/
I don't know about damaging, but you dilute the existing liquid, will
not have the proper proportions when you start charging immediately.
Better wait.
However, if the plates are partially out of the liquid, don't attempt to charge, fill first. The battery may be dead in any case, though.
Also, read about bubbles below.
And how often do you need to add water?
You find that from observation of how fast the level goes down.
This says to add water after every ten charging cycles?
Isn't that like every ten days?
And how do you know how much to add?
There is typically "something" to show you the level.
They say add water to the "splash plate" but what is that?
As you add water, the level touches the rim of a "tube" and the
reflection of the light in the water surface suddenly changes shape.
Stop there.
They say the six chambers produce 2.1 volts each for 12.6 volts?
Isn't it more than that?
Depends on charge level.
They say adding water before charging will make it overflow.
Does it really change the water level that much from dead to charged?
Gas bubbles form inside when charging. If you do fast charging, they can
be big. Those bubbles inside the liquid make its volume bigger, and it
may overflow. A car battery is designed considering that the vibrations
of the motor will release the bubbles fast, before they become big. A
battery designed to be on a room has more space between plates so that
the bubbles release easier without vibrations.
So, if the level is too low (close to the plates) add some water, but
not the maximum.
And what happens if you tap water instead of distilled?
Damage.
In chemistry, you only use distilled water, for every reaction.
You do not want extra chemicals.
Carlos E.R. wrote on 1/18/2023 5:19 AM:
On 2023-01-18 05:34, Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ wrote:
De-ionized water is purer than distilled water.
The reverse.
De-ionized water is pure than distilled water.
https://bescocommercial.com/di-water/deionized-vs-distilled/
Two common types of treated water are distilled and deionized water.
Here are some similarities and differences that are key to understanding them:
Both distilled and deionized water are fit to drink.
Deionized water is purer than distilled water.
Distilled water conducts electricity,
while deionized water does not.
There's no need for TP for anyone who is retired and lives at home most of >> the time because they can just use this which works wonders for cleaning.
https://www.amazon.com/Diverter-Portable-Cleaning-Attachment-Polished/dp/B097G9BVQ1/
It's a good contraption, much like a hand held bidet.
These things should be standard attachments, IMHO, in all bathrooms.
It is too intimate to be shared, for hygienic reasons, unless everyone
has a personal nozzle.
And yes, I recycle the humanure too. And the 1:1:1 NPK urine.
Along with it goes all the kitchen scraps (nothing goes down the drain).
Do you pee and poo in a plastic urinal like they use in a hospital bed?
A car battery is not like your pool. The electrolyte in a car battery
should be dilute sulfuric acid and nothing else. The car battery
generates electricity by a reversible electro-chemical process.
Impurities will cause internal discharge and will shorten the time that
a battery can hold the charge.
Each cell in a lead-acid battery contains many interleave layers of
positive and negative electrode, and many thin membranes of fibre glass
hold the electrolyte between the electrodes. There is an air vent but
the environment inside the cell is pretty much isolated from the outside world.
Why wouldn't demineralized water demineralize a battery?
Because a car battery doesn't work like a pool. Can your pool generate electricity? Does you pool look like the inside of a car battery?
In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 18 Jan 2023 07:09:56 -0500, Mighty? Wannabe?
<@.> wrote:
Carlos E.R. wrote on 1/18/2023 5:19 AM:Indeed it does say that, but it doesn't give much in the way of reasons. Pretty much proof by assertion.
On 2023-01-18 05:34, Mighty? Wannabe? wrote:
De-ionized water is purer than distilled water.
The reverse.
De-ionized water is pure than distilled water.
https://bescocommercial.com/di-water/deionized-vs-distilled/
Two common types of treated water are distilled and deionized water.
Here are some similarities and differences that are key to understanding
them:
Both distilled and deionized water are fit to drink.
Deionized water is purer than distilled water.
Distilled water conducts electricity, while deionized water does
not.
OTOH, my googling yielded contradictory results!!!!
I haven't read them yet, or looked for tie breakers, becusae I think
it's worth reporting the mere fact that it has contradictory results:
Here is my search https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=deionized+water+vs+distilled+water+for+batteries
and, not counting the Q&A part, these are the first two hits.
Water that has been purified of dissolved minerals and salts through a process called deionization is recognized as the best choice for
maintaining lead-acid batteries. Deionization eliminates more impurities
from water than distillation or conventional filters.
The Perfect “Solution” for Maintaining Your Lead-Acid Batteries https://www.crown.com › articles › energy-management
vs.
Can you use Deionized Water in Batteries?
https://www.phlsci.com › news › articles › can-you-use-...
Oct 12, 2021 — Whilst deionized water is not as pure as distilled water;
it is perfect for industrial battery watering. It is a cost-effective
method
Plainlly, the second article was written by a Brit, or someone from the Commonwealth. As an American, I should favor the first article, but I
don't, so I will control my patriotism and wait for more information.
If the only ions in distilled but not de-ionized water are hyrogen,
oxygen
and/or hydroxide ions,
I don't see how they would cause a probem
in a battery.
Doesn't any water in a lead acid battery ionize into
those very ions?
And how could there be other ions than those three in
distilled water? Maybe the answer is in the articles, but I've already spent a lot of time on this thread, so I'll either wait until you guys resolve this, or I'll come back later with renewed energy.
Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ wrote on 1/18/2023 7:09 AM:
Carlos E.R. wrote on 1/18/2023 5:19 AM:
On 2023-01-18 05:34, Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ wrote:
De-ionized water is purer than distilled water.
The reverse.
De-ionized water is pure than distilled water.
https://bescocommercial.com/di-water/deionized-vs-distilled/
Two common types of treated water are distilled and deionized water.
Here are some similarities and differences that are key to
understanding them:
Both distilled and deionized water are fit to drink.
Deionized water is purer than distilled water.
Distilled water conducts electricity, while deionized water does
not.
People have the wrong impression that "distilled water" is the purest
form of water but that's not true.
Common distilled water is obtained by boiling water and collecting the condensed steam. The condensed steam is not 100% pure H2O because there
are chemicals in the water with lower boiling point than H2O that will
come over in the distillation process.
The best way to get deionized water is to start the deionization process
with distilled water because there will be a lot less impurities to
remove, and distilled water is cheap and easy to get.
On Wed, 18 Jan 2023 07:09:56 -0500, Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ wrote:
https://bescocommercial.com/di-water/deionized-vs-distilled/
I'll see your URL and raise you two:
https://www.uswatersystems.com/deionized-water-vs-distilled-water
"Deionized water and Distilled water are both types of extremely pure
water, but they are produced in two distinctly different ways. Depending
on the source water, distilled water can be more pure than deionized
water
– but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's better. There are pros and cons to using deionized water vs. distilled water for particular
processes, particularly when it comes to cost and efficiency."
https://americanhomewater.com/what-is-deionized-water-and-what-is-it-used- for/
"The main difference between these two types of water comes in the form
of
purity. Deionized water is the purest form of water available
and, in some
cases, can be considered a type of synthetic water.
However, distilled
water does not contain any impurities
and therefore has fewer contaminants
than deionized water."
It's a toss.
rbowman wrote on 1/18/2023 9:40 AM:
On Wed, 18 Jan 2023 07:09:56 -0500, Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ wrote:
https://bescocommercial.com/di-water/deionized-vs-distilled/I'll see your URL and raise you two:
https://www.uswatersystems.com/deionized-water-vs-distilled-water
"Deionized water and Distilled water are both types of extremely pure
water, but they are produced in two distinctly different ways. Depending
on the source water, distilled water can be more pure than deionized
water
– but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's better. There are pros and >> cons to using deionized water vs. distilled water for particular
processes, particularly when it comes to cost and efficiency."
https://americanhomewater.com/what-is-deionized-water-and-what-is-it-used- >> for/
"The main difference between these two types of water comes in the form
of
purity. Deionized water is the purest form of water available and, in
some
cases, can be considered a type of synthetic water. However, distilled
water does not contain any impurities and therefore has fewer
contaminants
than deionized water."
It's a toss.
"However, distilled water does not contain any impurities" is definitely
a misconception. The writer of that article is definitely babbling
nonsense without any real knowledge.
I am a self-made expert in distillation.
I own two expensive fractional distillation columns, and I currently own about 5 counter-top water distillers. If you know how to use the digital counter-top water distiller in an inventive way, you can do fractional distillation professionally in your kitchen.
Fractional distillation column: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractionating_column
When water boils, it is not just pure H2O that is coming out in the
steam. All other minor solutes in the water with boiling point lower
than water will also come out in the steam.
Besides that, some of the light weight microscopic impurities in the
water will also "ride" the steam and come out of the boiling water.
You can do very accurate fractional distillation using a digital
counter-top water distiller from Amazon. You can set the boiling
temperature digitally, and theoretically you can separately a mixture of
many solutes with differently boiling points by distilling at different temperatures.
My own expertise is electrical engineering but I am, in a way, a crazy scientist.
In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 18 Jan 2023 07:09:56 -0500, Mighty? Wannabe?
<@.> wrote:
Carlos E.R. wrote on 1/18/2023 5:19 AM:
On 2023-01-18 05:34, Mighty? Wannabe? wrote:
De-ionized water is purer than distilled water.
The reverse.
De-ionized water is pure than distilled water.
https://bescocommercial.com/di-water/deionized-vs-distilled/
Two common types of treated water are distilled and deionized water.
Here are some similarities and differences that are key to understanding
them:
Both distilled and deionized water are fit to drink.
Indeed it does say that, but it doesn't give much in the way of reasons. Pretty much proof by assertion.
Deionized water is purer than distilled water.
Distilled water conducts electricity, while deionized water does not.
OTOH, my googling yielded contradictory results!!!!
I haven't read them yet, or looked for tie breakers, becusae I think
it's worth reporting the mere fact that it has contradictory results:
Here is my search https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=deionized+water+vs+distilled+water+for+batteries
and, not counting the Q&A part, these are the first two hits.
Water that has been purified of dissolved minerals and salts through a process called deionization is recognized as the best choice for
maintaining lead-acid batteries. Deionization eliminates more impurities
from water than distillation or conventional filters.
The Perfect “Solution” for Maintaining Your Lead-Acid Batteries https://www.crown.com › articles › energy-management
vs.
Can you use Deionized Water in Batteries?
https://www.phlsci.com › news › articles › can-you-use-...
Oct 12, 2021 — Whilst deionized water is not as pure as distilled water;
it is perfect for industrial battery watering. It is a cost-effective
method
Plainlly, the second article was written by a Brit, or someone from the Commonwealth. As an American, I should favor the first article, but I
don't, so I will control my patriotism and wait for more information.
If the only ions in distilled but not de-ionized water are hyrogen,
oxygen and/or hydroxide ions, I don't see how they would cause a probem
in a battery. Doesn't any water in a lead acid battery ionize into
those very ions? And how could there be other ions than those three in distilled water? Maybe the answer is in the articles, but I've already spent a lot of time on this thread, so I'll either wait until you guys resolve this, or I'll come back later with renewed energy.
MightyWannabe wrote:
There is a good possibility the rectifiers (diodes) in your alternator
could fry because it is recommended that your car be running when you
jump start another car. The rectifiers of your car is supplying electric
current from the alternator and can overload due to the jump start
operation.
In the recipient car, when the engine finally starts, I was told since I
was young that the best way to "absorb" some of the excess current in the first few seconds is for the recipient to turn on the headlights.
This seems counterintuitive from the recipient's standpoint in terms of "using" current but the theory is that the "B" sense circuit of the alternator (which is just a coil of wire in the end) senses a "very low" battery so it tells the alternator to put out a "very high" current,
whose
initial burst could ("they say") fry the rectifying wheatstone diodes.
Maybe it makes sense to the electronics folks
who are asked to comment.
There is also the possibility of the voltage drop so low momentarily
that your car stereo's anti-theft system kicks in, and you'll have to go
back to the car dealership to enter the anti-theft code. The anti-theft
system detects the zero voltage when it is ripped from the dashboard.
But what happens each time you replace the battery every few years?
On Wed, 18 Jan 2023 23:09:56 +1100, Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ <.> wrote:
Carlos E.R. wrote on 1/18/2023 5:19 AM:
On 2023-01-18 05:34, Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ wrote:
De-ionized water is purer than distilled water.
The reverse.
De-ionized water is pure than distilled water.
Nope.
https://bescocommercial.com/di-water/deionized-vs-distilled/
That's the operation flogging de-ionizers
Two common types of treated water are distilled and deionized water.
Here are some similarities and differences that are key to
understanding them:
Both distilled and deionized water are fit to drink.
Deionized water is purer than distilled water.
Wrong.
Distilled water conducts electricity,
Wrong.
while deionized water does not.
Separate matter entirely to which has other than H2O in it.
On Wed, 18 Jan 2023 21:39:09 +1100, Carlos E.R.
<[email protected]d> wrote:
On 2023-01-18 04:35, mike wrote:
When I looked up how to jump a car battery, they tell you WHAT to do,
but
not WHY, which is infuriating as it's harder to remember unless you know >>> why.
https://blog.napacanada.com/en/how-to-safely-and-quickly-recharge-a-dead-car-battery/
First they say the cars shouldn't touch.
Why?
Then they said positive first.
Why?
Because of the danger of touching metal with the positive lead when
the two negatives are connected.
This assumes the car has negative ground, although a positive ground
is very rare in cars nowdays.
Once started, they say remove the negative cable first.
Why?
Same reason.
Here, they say adding water damages the batteries. Why?
https://www.uetechnologies.com/add-water-to-battery-before-or-after-charging/
I don't know about damaging, but you dilute the existing liquid, will
not have the proper proportions when you start charging immediately.
Better wait.
However, if the plates are partially out of the liquid, don't attempt
to charge, fill first. The battery may be dead in any case, though.
Also, read about bubbles below.
And how often do you need to add water?
You find that from observation of how fast the level goes down.
This says to add water after every ten charging cycles?
Isn't that like every ten days?
And how do you know how much to add?
There is typically "something" to show you the level.
They say add water to the "splash plate" but what is that?
As you add water, the level touches the rim of a "tube" and the
reflection of the light in the water surface suddenly changes shape.
Stop there.
They say the six chambers produce 2.1 volts each for 12.6 volts?
Isn't it more than that?
Depends on charge level.
They say adding water before charging will make it overflow.
Does it really change the water level that much from dead to charged?
Gas bubbles form inside when charging. If you do fast charging, they
can be big. Those bubbles inside the liquid make its volume bigger,
and it may overflow. A car battery is designed considering that the
vibrations of the motor will release the bubbles fast, before they
become big. A battery designed to be on a room has more space between
plates so that the bubbles release easier without vibrations.
So, if the level is too low (close to the plates) add some water, but
not the maximum.
And what happens if you tap water instead of distilled?
Damage.
In chemistry, you only use distilled water, for every reaction.
Wrong. And my formal qualifications are in chemistry.
You do not want extra chemicals.
Depends on what you are doing. Mostly it doesn't matter.
<[email protected]> wrote:
I always did positive first. I will switch!
Think it out first - then decide.
I'm thinking... I'm thinking... I'm trying to think this thing out.
I don't think it matters all that much which cable goes first or last.
As far as I can think about it, the last connection is the one that
sparks.
And that means the first disconnection is the one that sparks.
Since you don't want that spark to be near any concentration of flammable hydrogen gas, I guess the theory that I'll concoct is you want the
negative
cable to be as far from that hydrogen gas as possible.
That makes it the negative cable to be the last to connect.
And the first to disconnect.
Now, if the theory is to proceed accordingly, we have to decide which
battery has the most chance of having excess hydrogen gas.
The answer likely is neither will have any, but if we have to choose,
which
battery will have more hydrogen outgassing?
(A) The donor battery (which is likely already topped off) or
(B) The recipient battery (which is likely taking the greater charge)
The answer seems, to me, to be neither battery will have excess hydrogen
gas, but if I was forced to choose, I guess the battery being charged the most has the most excess hydrogen gas, which would clearly be the donor.
All this is just "thinking it out" so tell me if I'm wrong so I learn
from
your expertise (the royal your that is, as everyone has something to
say).
Peter wrote on 1/18/2023 10:16 AM:
MightyWannabe wrote:
There is a good possibility the rectifiers (diodes) in your alternatorIn the recipient car, when the engine finally starts, I was told since I
could fry because it is recommended that your car be running when you
jump start another car. The rectifiers of your car is supplying
electric
current from the alternator and can overload due to the jump start
operation.
was young that the best way to "absorb" some of the excess current in
the
first few seconds is for the recipient to turn on the headlights.
This seems counterintuitive from the recipient's standpoint in terms of
"using" current but the theory is that the "B" sense circuit of the
alternator (which is just a coil of wire in the end) senses a "very low"
battery so it tells the alternator to put out a "very high" current,
whose
initial burst could ("they say") fry the rectifying wheatstone diodes.
Maybe it makes sense to the electronics folks who are asked to comment.
There is also the possibility of the voltage drop so low momentarilyBut what happens each time you replace the battery every few years?
that your car stereo's anti-theft system kicks in, and you'll have to
go
back to the car dealership to enter the anti-theft code. The anti-theft
system detects the zero voltage when it is ripped from the dashboard.
I can think of a simple way. Connect jump cable clamps to the car
battery terminals and then carefully loosen and lift the terminals from
the old battery.
Another way is to connect a 12V cigarette lighter plug into the
cigarette lighter socket to temporarily maintain a 12V to the whole
system from another 12V power source before you disconnect your old
battery. You may have to power on the accessories in your car if you car
is designed to cut off the power to the cigarette lighter socket when
the ignition is off.
Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ <@.> wrote:
People have the wrong impression that "distilled water" is the purest
form of water but that's not true. Common distilled water is obtained by
boiling water and collecting the condensed steam. The condensed steam is
not 100% pure H2O because there are chemicals in the water with lower
boiling point than H2O that will come over in the distillation process.
The best way to get deionized water is to start the deionization process
with distilled water because there will be a lot less impurities to
remove, and distilled water is cheap and easy to get.
It's a car battery. It's not a silicon based integrated circuit.
Water is water. To a certain degree it's all the same thing.
I don't know the answer for sure,
but I would reason out that almost all
tap water will be just fine in a car battery
although I don't doubt
chlorine (or chloramines?) that they put in them might affect the
lead:acid
chemistry.
They add fluorine too I think,
and there might be a decent amount of
calcium carbonates
and metallic ions such as copper and phosphorous.
I'm guessing that the minute amount of such things (having owned a pool,
I'm aware they're in the PPM range, and PPB for phosphorous) in a car
battery designed to last five years, won't make one bit of difference.
An example of tap water total alkalinity is around 50 to 200 PPM and the calcium hardness due to calcium salts would range a bit higher, maybe
double (depending, of course, on the amount of old shallow seas in your
area fifty to two hundred million years ago).
But distilled water is cheap and rain water is even cheaper, and, in
fact,
so is tap water - so since they're all dirt cheap, may as well use the
rain
water.
That's how I see it from a reasoned approach, where I'm very familiar
with
the scare tactics pool stores try to pull on people when they find
something, anything, to say "oh that's going to damage your equipment."
Same technique those Indian "Microsoft support tech" try to pull on you
when _they_ call you and tell you to look in the Event Viewer and all
those
errors indicate your computer needs their expert help with ransomware addition.
Overall, does ANYONE have ANY real data that tap water actually degrades
a
car batter enough for someone to actually measure the results in 5 years?
Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ <@.> wrote:
Indeed it does say that, but it doesn't give much in the way ofDe-ionized water is pure than distilled water.De-ionized water is purer than distilled water.The reverse.
https://bescocommercial.com/di-water/deionized-vs-distilled/
Two common types of treated water are distilled and deionized water.
Here are some similarities and differences that are key to
understanding
them:
   Both distilled and deionized water are fit to drink.
   Deionized water is purer than distilled water.
   Distilled water conducts electricity, while deionized water >>>> does not.
reasons.
Pretty much proof by assertion.
OTOH, my googling yielded contradictory results!!!!
I haven't read them yet, or looked for tie breakers, becusae I think
it's worth reporting the mere fact that it has contradictory results:
Here is my search
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=deionized+water+vs+distilled+water+for+batteries
and, not counting the Q&A part, these are the first two hits.
Water that has been purified of dissolved minerals and salts through a
process called deionization is recognized as the best choice for
maintaining lead-acid batteries. Deionization eliminates more
impurities
from water than distillation or conventional filters.
The Perfect “Solution†for Maintaining Your Lead-Acid Batteries >>> https://www.crown.com › articles › energy-management
vs.
Can you use Deionized Water in Batteries?
https://www.phlsci.com › news › articles › can-you-use-...
Oct 12, 2021 — Whilst deionized water is not as pure as distilled >>> water;
it is perfect for industrial battery watering. It is a cost-effective
method
Plainlly, the second article was written by a Brit, or someone from the
Commonwealth. As an American, I should favor the first article, but I
don't, so I will control my patriotism and wait for more information.
If the only ions in distilled but not de-ionized water are hyrogen,
oxygen and/or hydroxide ions, I don't see how they would cause a probem
in a battery. Doesn't any water in a lead acid battery ionize into
those very ions? And how could there be other ions than those three in
distilled water? Maybe the answer is in the articles, but I've
already
spent a lot of time on this thread, so I'll either wait until you guys
resolve this, or I'll come back later with renewed energy.
People have the wrong impression that "distilled water" is the purest
form of water but that's not true. Common distilled water is obtained by
boiling water and collecting the condensed steam. The condensed steam is
not 100% pure H2O because there are chemicals in the water with lower
boiling point than H2O that will come over in the distillation process.
The best way to get deionized water is to start the deionization process
with distilled water because there will be a lot less impurities to
remove, and distilled water is cheap and easy to get.
You don't get pure H2O by using a home water deionizer in your water
pipe using resin beads because most of the impurities will still pass
through the resin beads.
You can tell deionized water is purer simply by the price. I can get a
gallon (4L) of distilled water from a supermarket for about $1, but I
have to go to an auto-parts store to get deionized water for about $6.
https://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/turbo-power-deionized-water-3-78-l-0293003p.html
Didn't the conversation recently happen that rain water (now that "acid
rain" is no longer a thing, thanks to the EPA), is just as good as
distilled water nowadays?
Sure, it's slightly acidic at pH 5.6 (if it's not acid rain, that is, as
acid rain is pH 5.5 or lower by EPA definition someone found out), but a
bit of weak carbonic acid (from the dissolved carbon dioxide) won't hurt
the strong sulfuric acid in a lead:acid battery, will it?
I'm guessing that rain water nowadays, unless you live within a few miles
of a volcano (and you don't) or a coal-fired power plant (and you don't),
is pretty damn close to distilled water in most parts of the country.
Sure rain water will have a bit of "something here" and "something there" based on the dissolved gases in the atmosphere, but so will any bottle of distilled water that has ever been open to the exact same atmosphere.
Someone said there are "particles" in the rain water, but I don't believe that as you can't see any when you collect it outside and even if there
were, a coffee filter would filter them out just fine (and who says store bought distilled water doesn't have particles?).
Sure, both might have particles, but I can't imagine they could matter
given how few there would be if you can't even see them with your eyes.
But I don't know.
I'm just trying to reason this stuff out like the rest of
you. If there's someone who actually knows what he's talking about (not
me), then that person should set me straight before I go on with this
line
of reasoning.
Has anyone wondered whether the "pure" water will be "leaching" out the chemistry of the lead:acid plates inside the battery?
Having owned a pool, all water chemistry tends toward equilibrium,
and
dissolved salts (metal and a non metal) are no exception to the rule.
So the more pure the water, the more it will dissolve a bit of that
lead:acid compound that they slather on the plates between rubber sheets.
Has anyone thought of that?
micky <[email protected]> wrote:
It had to do with accidentally ....aha it had to do with
accidentally touching both cables to the frame of the car. Say you've
hooked it up to the car with the good battery, and then you connect the
negative first. Then while you're trying to connect the positive (and
sometimes that's not easy. It has a cover or it's tucked away, or you
can see it but can't get the clamp on, you touch the metal body or
engine or frame of the car. Now you have both cables touching the frame
while at the other end, at the car you are using to jump your own, they
are connected to a good battery. Big spark.
Well. That makes sense. So maybe my initial reasoning was wrong that the
last cable attach will spark, and you want that spark away from the
battery, so that would have to be the negative cable.
However, you also said that the DISCHARGED battery is the one with all
the
hydrogen,
so that means that you want to put the donor battery cable on
last (because that's where the spark will be and the donor battery is presumed to have less hydrogen outgassing).
But then you made a good point that if you put the positive on first,
then
anything any negative touches by accident, will spark where it touched.
So now we have one good reason to put the negative on last and
specifically
the negative on the DONOR car on last by one line of reasoning, and by another line of reasoning, we have the positive going on last, presumably also on the donor car because it's going to spark.
Which is the correct line of reasoning?
(A) Put the negative on the donor car last because that spark is least
likely to ignite hydrogen gases from the discharged battery or
(B) Put the positive on the donor car last because you have less chance
of accidentally shorting the circuit
Which is more logical?
Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ <@.> wrote:
You can make do with rain water or tap water to top up the lead-acid
battery but doing it too often will accumulate too much impurities in
the battery fluid.
I say from the start that I'm only "reasoning" this out, purely theoretically, so while I'm sure adding tap water with high calcium carbonates will add "some" impurities.
Your use of "too much" is what bothers me, only because I've never seen a single reliable source that tested this for the five year life of a
battery.
I'm sure someone tested it - but I've never seen those tests, where my assumption, without those tests, is sure, "something" will be added, but
will it make any difference in a twenty-five pound battery designed to
last
only five years?
You can make do with distilled water but that is not as good as
deionized water, which technically should be processed from distilled
water.
Again I'm only reasoning this out, and I would back off on my rationale
the
instant someone shows me batteries being harmed by rain water, which is distilled water nowadays, despite the "acid rain" scare tactics of some.
The Indian "Microsoft support techs" tried to pull the same scare tactics
on me that the pool stores do, where they take a single tiny event and
turn
it into the explosion of the Maine in Havana's harbor.
A responsible auto shop or car dealership should use deionized water to
dilute the sulfuric acid to use as battery fluid.
A commercial outfit will always follow industry standards if they're reputable (most are not, in my humble opinion - most are scammers).
That's why you never believe anything coming out of the mouth of someone selling you a service without checking it (for example, they'll tell you
that you "need" a fluid change when the owners manual will disagree).
They're all scheisters in my book - and I've been sheisted by them so I
know this for a fact that some are sheisters who can't be trusted.
Back to this topic, how do you know that the "pure" water isn't leaching
out all the good paste on the plates, now that it's devoid of ions?
I'm not asking this as a challenge - as the basic logic is sound.
What I'm looking for is a real answer to the practical question of how
much
could it possibly matter in a twenty-five pound battery designed for a
short life in what turns out to be miserably inhospitable temperature & vibration conditions, not to mention discharge recharge redox cycles.
On 1/18/2023 11:18 AM, Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ wrote:
Peter wrote on 1/18/2023 10:53 AM:
rbowman <[email protected]> wrote:Have you thought of using corncob instead of toilet paper? Corncob is
"Deionized water and Distilled water are both types of extremely pureHas anyone wondered whether the "pure" water will be "leaching" out the
water, but they are produced in two distinctly different ways.
chemistry of the lead:acid plates inside the battery?
Having owned a pool, all water chemistry tends toward equilibrium, and
dissolved salts (metal and a non metal) are no exception to the rule.
So the more pure the water, the more it will dissolve a bit of that
lead:acid compound that they slather on the plates between rubber
sheets.
Has anyone thought of that?
cheap, natural and reusable. LOL!!!
Although deionized water is 6 times more expensive than distilled
water, but one gallon goes a long way.
Use deionized water if you want the best for your lead-acid battery.
Think those costs are off with two different sources and sizes.
Google sez this:
"However, in general, distilled water is more expensive than deionized
water. This is because it takes more time and energy to produce
distilled water, and it also requires special equipment that not all companies have."
When I worked in the lab we had a distilled water line to every bench
but it was replaced by deionized water to save cost.
Been decades since I had a car battery that needed water but I am
hearing it is better to put distilled or demineralized water in your car radiator if needed as minerals are bad there too.
On 2023-01-18 13:36, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 18 Jan 2023 07:09:56 -0500, Mighty? Wannabe?
<@.> wrote:
Carlos E.R. wrote on 1/18/2023 5:19 AM:
On 2023-01-18 05:34, Mighty? Wannabe? wrote:
De-ionized water is purer than distilled water.
The reverse.
De-ionized water is pure than distilled water.
https://bescocommercial.com/di-water/deionized-vs-distilled/
Two common types of treated water are distilled and deionized water.
Here are some similarities and differences that are key to
understanding
them:
Both distilled and deionized water are fit to drink.
Bullshit, don't try that, you could die.
Why can't we drink distilled water?
Drinking distilled water creates health problems from the lack of
essential nutrients
and causes dehydration.
Drinking distilled water is never a bad idea
because the body cannot absorb dissolved minerals from water into the tissue.Sep 29, 2022
What Is Distilled Water and Is It Safe to Drink? https://www.freshwatersystems.com › blogs › blog › is-...
https://www.freshwatersystems.com/blogs/blog/is-distilled-water-safe-to-drink
Deionized water is purer than distilled water.Indeed it does say that, but it doesn't give much in the way of reasons.
Distilled water conducts electricity, while deionized water does
not.
Pretty much proof by assertion.
OTOH, my googling yielded contradictory results!!!!
I haven't read them yet, or looked for tie breakers, becusae I think
it's worth reporting the mere fact that it has contradictory results:
Here is my search
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=deionized+water+vs+distilled+water+for+batteries
and, not counting the Q&A part, these are the first two hits.
Water that has been purified of dissolved minerals and salts through a
process called deionization is recognized as the best choice for
maintaining lead-acid batteries. Deionization eliminates more impurities
from water than distillation or conventional filters.
The Perfect “Solution” for Maintaining Your Lead-Acid Batteries
https://www.crown.com › articles › energy-management
vs.
Can you use Deionized Water in Batteries?
https://www.phlsci.com › news › articles › can-you-use-...
Oct 12, 2021 — Whilst deionized water is not as pure as distilled water; >> it is perfect for industrial battery watering. It is a cost-effective
method
Plainlly, the second article was written by a Brit, or someone from
the
Commonwealth. As an American, I should favor the first article, but I
don't, so I will control my patriotism and wait for more information.
If the only ions in distilled but not de-ionized water are hyrogen,
oxygen and/or hydroxide ions, I don't see how they would cause a probem
in a battery. Doesn't any water in a lead acid battery ionize into
those very ions? And how could there be other ions than those three in
distilled water? Maybe the answer is in the articles, but I've already
spent a lot of time on this thread, so I'll either wait until you guys
resolve this, or I'll come back later with renewed energy.
<https://www.smacgigworld.com/blog/differences-between-deionized-water-and-distilled-water.php>
Distillation:
Advantages
Removes contaminants to a large extent
Reusable
Lower cost
Limitations
Some contaminants that have the same boiling point as water is
vaporized with water can be carried into the condensate
Careful maintenance is required to ensure purity
Requires more heat / electrical energy to boil the water.
Requires large space on the counter
Slower process
Deionization:
Advantages
Effectively remove dissolved ions in the water.
Able to regenerate resin beds
Low-cost investment
Limitation
Do not remove particles or bacteria.
Operating costs increase when used for the long term.
On 2023/01/17 8:33 p.m., mike wrote:
On 18-01-2023 09:40 Clifford Heath <[email protected]> wrote:
In case there is any hydrogen gas that has developed in the batteryThank you for trying to explain why they said here to connect + first.
and may be still concentrated enough to burn, any spark from
completing the circuit should be made at some distance from the
battery. That is, but connecting the earth to some metal part of the
chassis, not to the battery terminal itself.
https://blog.napacanada.com/en/how-to-safely-and-quickly-recharge-a-dead-car-battery/
Isn't there a spark no matter what cable is the last point to be
connected?
The chassis is (usually) negative, which is why that is the first andI'm not disputing that since I'm the one asking the question, but
last contact point.
didn't
that article above say the opposite?
They said to connect a negative cable last to the chassis of the dead
car.
The point is to first connect the positive lead to the battery positive,
and then the negative lead AWAY FROM THE BATTERY by connecting to the
engine metal. In that order for safety.
After the engine starts, then disconnect the negative lead that is AWAY
FROM THE BATTERY so any spark created at the disconnect point is
unlikely to cause the battery to explode if hydrogen gas was created.
Perhaps you left the jumpers connected for a few minutes while charging
the battery which leads to more hydrogen gas
which makes a spark more and more likely/dangerous as time goes on...
Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ <@.> wrote:
There's no need for TP for anyone who is retired and lives at home
most of
the time because they can just use this which works wonders for
cleaning.
https://www.amazon.com/Diverter-Portable-Cleaning-Attachment-Polished/dp/B097G9BVQ1/
It's a good contraption, much like a hand held bidet.
I got the idea from this newsgroup something like a decade or so ago. https://www.amazon.com/Bathroom-Handheld-78-7inch-Shower-Cleaning/dp/B096RG4XBW/
They had fitted a typical garden hose attachment instead of that one. https://www.amazon.com/Twinkle-Star-Adjustable-Sweeper-TWIS3231/dp/B07D3TBSV7/
I tried it but it was too heavy, especially with the ball valve attached. https://www.amazon.com/Worlds-Best-Water-Shut-Valve/dp/B06XKR2PZX
It was heavier than the diverter valve was designed to handle so I
switched
to this instead, which gets its water volume control from the main valve. https://www.amazon.com/Bathroom-Handheld-Showerhead-Vaginal-Cleaning/dp/B077RXHSC9/
I know what you're thinking and I'm sure it's used for that, but for me,
it's all about keeping it on the outside and making sure things are
clean.
You'll never need toilet paper ever again and you'll be cleaner as a
result. During Covid, I was wondering why anyone hoarded TP in the first place.
How does Covid make you need more TP?
These things should be standard attachments, IMHO, in all bathrooms.
It is too intimate to be shared, for hygienic reasons, unless everyone
has a personal nozzle.
Good point of view, where I live alone but it doesn't touch the body.
And yes, I recycle the humanure too. And the 1:1:1 NPK urine.
Along with it goes all the kitchen scraps (nothing goes down the
drain).
Do you pee and poo in a plastic urinal like they use in a hospital bed?
How did you know?
I used to use this but it was just too difficult to keep clean. https://www.amazon.com/Hand-held-Portable-Capacity-Leak-Proof-Wheelchair/dp/B07VMPYLQ6/
Plus, the only thing getting bigger down there is my prostate, which is wreaking havoc with the drainage hydraulics, where I'll say no more.
Three of these a night tend to be simpler and work better on your side
while in bed, with one more kept by the office computer because it's
emptied more easily into the five gallon containment bucket (which is a re-used Costco 40 pound jug of soybean oil, or whatever size it is). https://www.amazon.com/Portable-Urinal-Bottle-Elderly-Plastic/dp/B08DXKKC2R/
It's really good for the environment NOT to make nitrogen fertilizer at a factory because the nitrogen in the NPK consumes inordinate amounts of
heat.
For the environment, I collect the thicker stuff in one of these. https://www.amazon.com/YUMSUM-Stable-Countoured-Bed-Bound-Patient/dp/B074G3P9BB/
The only problem with any of this is keeping things clean, but consider
it
a tradeoff as I never have to clean the toilets in the house ever again.
It feels good to give back to the soil, where I combine kitchen scraps,
wood chips, and humanure in layers in a re-used Costco dichlor bucket
with
the cap held tightly as the bigger corvids fly around where I've kept
it, I
guess they're thinking a dead animal lives there or something. :)
I don't think I waste anything as I burn all paper in the fireplace along with the wood in the wood-burning stove, so it's only plastic that I have
to place in the recycling bins about once every two months per bucket.
A car battery is not like your pool. The electrolyte in a car battery
should be dilute sulfuric acid and nothing else. The car battery
generates electricity by a reversible electro-chemical process.
Impurities will cause internal discharge and will shorten the time that
a battery can hold the charge.
I'm not disagreeing with you as I said I didn't know from the start.
I do know pool chemistry though - but not battery chemistry.
At least not yet.
But keep talking and I can learn from you which is a good thing.
Each cell in a lead-acid battery contains many interleave layers of
positive and negative electrode, and many thin membranes of fibre glass
hold the electrolyte between the electrodes. There is an air vent but
the environment inside the cell is pretty much isolated from the outside
world.
I don't think I've had to add water to a car battery in years. I guess
it's
done though as the caps come off (two sets of three).
Why wouldn't demineralized water demineralize a battery?
Because a car battery doesn't work like a pool. Can your pool generate
electricity? Does you pool look like the inside of a car battery?
You got me there.
The pool chemistry is simple because pH doesn't matter for sanitation
where
I just pour liquid chlorine into the pool to maintain the chlorine level
at
least 7.5% of the cyanuric acid level. That's it for sanitation.
For saturation, there are a half dozen factors, only half of which do you have any amount of control over, the other half (like temperature) are
out
of your hands so it's a game of matching the saturation index with the expected temperatures combined with the dilution when it rains and the concentration when it evaporates and you have to fill with city water.
I would think battery chemistry has the same "type" of equilibrium
constants (Pka is what we deal with in pool chemistry) though.
Just different chemicals and more redox stuff.
Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ <@.> wrote:
Therefore, as I have explained before, the highest grade of pure water
is deionized water made from distilled water.
What happens to the dissolved carbon dioxide concentration of that
"highest
grade of pure water" once you open the jug & leave it for a while at STP?
Henrys Law says it will reach equilibrium based on the partial pressure
of
the carbon dioxide in the air.
That ionic carbon dioxide dissolves and turns into carbonic acid.
pH about 5.6
It's only "pure water" for an instant.
On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 09:39:01 +1100, Peter <[email protected]> wrote:
Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ <@.> wrote:
There's no need for TP for anyone who is retired and lives at home
most of
the time because they can just use this which works wonders for
cleaning.
https://www.amazon.com/Diverter-Portable-Cleaning-Attachment-Polished/dp/B097G9BVQ1/
It's a good contraption, much like a hand held bidet.
I got the idea from this newsgroup something like a decade or so ago.
https://www.amazon.com/Bathroom-Handheld-78-7inch-Shower-Cleaning/dp/B096RG4XBW/
They had fitted a typical garden hose attachment instead of that one.
https://www.amazon.com/Twinkle-Star-Adjustable-Sweeper-TWIS3231/dp/B07D3TBSV7/
I tried it but it was too heavy, especially with the ball valve
attached.
https://www.amazon.com/Worlds-Best-Water-Shut-Valve/dp/B06XKR2PZX
It was heavier than the diverter valve was designed to handle so I
switched
to this instead, which gets its water volume control from the main
valve.
https://www.amazon.com/Bathroom-Handheld-Showerhead-Vaginal-Cleaning/dp/B077RXHSC9/
I know what you're thinking and I'm sure it's used for that, but for me,
it's all about keeping it on the outside and making sure things are
clean.
You'll never need toilet paper ever again and you'll be cleaner as a
result. During Covid, I was wondering why anyone hoarded TP in the first
place.
How does Covid make you need more TP?
It doesn't but when some fools started buying it up so
they wouldn't be without it, other fools followed suit.
These things should be standard attachments, IMHO, in all bathrooms.
It is too intimate to be shared, for hygienic reasons, unless everyone
has a personal nozzle.
Good point of view, where I live alone but it doesn't touch the body.
And yes, I recycle the humanure too. And the 1:1:1 NPK urine.
Along with it goes all the kitchen scraps (nothing goes down the
drain).
Do you pee and poo in a plastic urinal like they use in a hospital bed?
How did you know?
I used to use this but it was just too difficult to keep clean.
https://www.amazon.com/Hand-held-Portable-Capacity-Leak-Proof-Wheelchair/dp/B07VMPYLQ6/
Plus, the only thing getting bigger down there is my prostate, which is
wreaking havoc with the drainage hydraulics, where I'll say no more.
Three of these a night tend to be simpler and work better on your side
while in bed, with one more kept by the office computer because it's
emptied more easily into the five gallon containment bucket (which is a
re-used Costco 40 pound jug of soybean oil, or whatever size it is).
https://www.amazon.com/Portable-Urinal-Bottle-Elderly-Plastic/dp/B08DXKKC2R/ >>
It's really good for the environment NOT to make nitrogen fertilizer
at a
factory because the nitrogen in the NPK consumes inordinate amounts of
heat.
For the environment, I collect the thicker stuff in one of these.
https://www.amazon.com/YUMSUM-Stable-Countoured-Bed-Bound-Patient/dp/B074G3P9BB/
The only problem with any of this is keeping things clean, but
consider it
a tradeoff as I never have to clean the toilets in the house ever again.
It feels good to give back to the soil, where I combine kitchen scraps,
wood chips, and humanure in layers in a re-used Costco dichlor bucket
with
the cap held tightly as the bigger corvids fly around where I've kept
it, I
guess they're thinking a dead animal lives there or something. :)
I don't think I waste anything as I burn all paper in the fireplace
along
with the wood in the wood-burning stove, so it's only plastic that I
have
to place in the recycling bins about once every two months per bucket.
A car battery is not like your pool. The electrolyte in a car battery
should be dilute sulfuric acid and nothing else. The car battery
generates electricity by a reversible electro-chemical process.
Impurities will cause internal discharge and will shorten the time that
a battery can hold the charge.
I'm not disagreeing with you as I said I didn't know from the start.
I do know pool chemistry though - but not battery chemistry.
At least not yet.
But keep talking and I can learn from you which is a good thing.
Each cell in a lead-acid battery contains many interleave layers of
positive and negative electrode, and many thin membranes of fibre glass
hold the electrolyte between the electrodes. There is an air vent but
the environment inside the cell is pretty much isolated from the
outside
world.
I don't think I've had to add water to a car battery in years. I
guess it's
done though as the caps come off (two sets of three).
Why wouldn't demineralized water demineralize a battery?
Because a car battery doesn't work like a pool. Can your pool generate
electricity? Does you pool look like the inside of a car battery?
You got me there.
The pool chemistry is simple because pH doesn't matter for sanitation
where
I just pour liquid chlorine into the pool to maintain the chlorine
level at
least 7.5% of the cyanuric acid level. That's it for sanitation.
For saturation, there are a half dozen factors, only half of which do
you
have any amount of control over, the other half (like temperature)
are out
of your hands so it's a game of matching the saturation index with the
expected temperatures combined with the dilution when it rains and the
concentration when it evaporates and you have to fill with city water.
I would think battery chemistry has the same "type" of equilibrium
constants (Pka is what we deal with in pool chemistry) though.
Just different chemicals and more redox stuff.
Plus, the only thing getting bigger down there is my prostate, which is wreaking havoc with the drainage hydraulics, where I'll say no more.
Peter wrote
Plus, the only thing getting bigger down there is my prostate, which is
wreaking havoc with the drainage hydraulics, where I'll say no more.
Medical research says that enlarged prostate is a direct consequence of
male hormone, much like male pattern baldness.
I haven't reached a state that I have problem passing urine
but I can sense that the passage is narrowing because it takes longer to empty the bladder.
I have been experimenting with all sorts of herbal hair tonics for more
than ten years now.
I am not bald yet, but like every man I am thinning at the crown.
Finally I come back to think about dealing with the male hormone, the
alleged culprit of male pattern baldness and enlarged prostate.
I found out on the internet that soybean and the artificial sweetener "Stevia" have female hormone effect. So I started using Stevia instead
of Sucralose, and eating a lot of tofu.
https://www.amazon.com/Now-Better-Stevia-Organic-Sweetener/dp/B005F9XFN0
I also make 1% Stevia water mixture as hair tonic to apply in my crown
area. I add 10% in volume isopropyl alcohol mainly as preservative. I
don't know if Stevia can rot in water but I imagine no bacteria can grow
in 10% IPA solution.
For tofu, I buy from Chinese supermarkets soft tofu in plastic buckets
that look like this photo:
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0360/7035/9178/products/WeChatImage_20200414153015_500x_a8743a02-1633-437e-ab22-79f27427aa69.jpg
I empty all the water and refill with cold tap water everyday and keep
in the refrigerator.
You might be able to find soft tofu in small plastic flats of 4, or 6
cubes in normal supermarket but Chinese supermarkets also sell tofu in
bucket size plastic containers as shown in the above photo.
My way of eating this tofu is:
Put one cube in a 2 qt batter bowl like this
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Anchor-Hocking-Glass-Mixing-Batter-Bowl-with-Lid-2-Quart/163913120
Cut the tofu in the batter bowl with scissors vertically many times
without holding the tofu by hand. Then add some cooking oil and close
the lid. Put into microwave and nuke it.
The steam can escape from the lid so there is no danger of the steam and pressure blowing the lid off in the microwave.
Season with anything you like, but I usually eat it with other food in
my meal.
It will take a long time to see results in countering the deleterious
effect of male hormone in man's hair and prostate, but I can tell than I
have less sex drive after two months of using Stevia as sweetener and
adding tofu to my diet. Maybe it is working.
Rod Speed wrote on 1/18/2023 7:52 PM:
On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 09:39:01 +1100, Peter
<[email protected]> wrote:
Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ <@.> wrote:
There's no need for TP for anyone who is retired and lives at home
most of
the time because they can just use this which works wonders for
cleaning.
https://www.amazon.com/Diverter-Portable-Cleaning-Attachment-Polished/dp/B097G9BVQ1/
It's a good contraption, much like a hand held bidet.
I got the idea from this newsgroup something like a decade or so ago.
https://www.amazon.com/Bathroom-Handheld-78-7inch-Shower-Cleaning/dp/B096RG4XBW/
They had fitted a typical garden hose attachment instead of that one.
https://www.amazon.com/Twinkle-Star-Adjustable-Sweeper-TWIS3231/dp/B07D3TBSV7/
I tried it but it was too heavy, especially with the ball valve
attached.
https://www.amazon.com/Worlds-Best-Water-Shut-Valve/dp/B06XKR2PZX
It was heavier than the diverter valve was designed to handle so I
switched
to this instead, which gets its water volume control from the main
valve.
https://www.amazon.com/Bathroom-Handheld-Showerhead-Vaginal-Cleaning/dp/B077RXHSC9/
I know what you're thinking and I'm sure it's used for that, but for
me,
it's all about keeping it on the outside and making sure things are
clean.
You'll never need toilet paper ever again and you'll be cleaner as a
result. During Covid, I was wondering why anyone hoarded TP in the
first
place.
How does Covid make you need more TP?
It doesn't but when some fools started buying it up so
they wouldn't be without it, other fools followed suit.
For them, it is a logical consequence of hoarding food in a survival
mode.
What goes in, must come out.
These things should be standard attachments, IMHO, in all bathrooms.
It is too intimate to be shared, for hygienic reasons, unless everyone >>>> has a personal nozzle.
Good point of view, where I live alone but it doesn't touch the body.
And yes, I recycle the humanure too. And the 1:1:1 NPK urine.
Along with it goes all the kitchen scraps (nothing goes down the
drain).
Do you pee and poo in a plastic urinal like they use in a hospital
bed?
How did you know?
I used to use this but it was just too difficult to keep clean.
https://www.amazon.com/Hand-held-Portable-Capacity-Leak-Proof-Wheelchair/dp/B07VMPYLQ6/
Plus, the only thing getting bigger down there is my prostate, which is
wreaking havoc with the drainage hydraulics, where I'll say no more.
Three of these a night tend to be simpler and work better on your side
while in bed, with one more kept by the office computer because it's
emptied more easily into the five gallon containment bucket (which is a
re-used Costco 40 pound jug of soybean oil, or whatever size it is).
https://www.amazon.com/Portable-Urinal-Bottle-Elderly-Plastic/dp/B08DXKKC2R/
It's really good for the environment NOT to make nitrogen fertilizer
at a
factory because the nitrogen in the NPK consumes inordinate amounts of
heat.
For the environment, I collect the thicker stuff in one of these.
https://www.amazon.com/YUMSUM-Stable-Countoured-Bed-Bound-Patient/dp/B074G3P9BB/
The only problem with any of this is keeping things clean, but
consider it
a tradeoff as I never have to clean the toilets in the house ever
again.
It feels good to give back to the soil, where I combine kitchen scraps,
wood chips, and humanure in layers in a re-used Costco dichlor bucket
with
the cap held tightly as the bigger corvids fly around where I've kept
it, I
guess they're thinking a dead animal lives there or something. :)
I don't think I waste anything as I burn all paper in the fireplace
along
with the wood in the wood-burning stove, so it's only plastic that I
have
to place in the recycling bins about once every two months per bucket.
A car battery is not like your pool. The electrolyte in a car battery
should be dilute sulfuric acid and nothing else. The car battery
generates electricity by a reversible electro-chemical process.
Impurities will cause internal discharge and will shorten the time
that
a battery can hold the charge.
I'm not disagreeing with you as I said I didn't know from the start.
I do know pool chemistry though - but not battery chemistry.
At least not yet.
But keep talking and I can learn from you which is a good thing.
Each cell in a lead-acid battery contains many interleave layers of
positive and negative electrode, and many thin membranes of fibre
glass
hold the electrolyte between the electrodes. There is an air vent but
the environment inside the cell is pretty much isolated from the
outside
world.
I don't think I've had to add water to a car battery in years. I guess
it's
done though as the caps come off (two sets of three).
Why wouldn't demineralized water demineralize a battery?
Because a car battery doesn't work like a pool. Can your pool generate >>>> electricity? Does you pool look like the inside of a car battery?
You got me there.
The pool chemistry is simple because pH doesn't matter for sanitation
where
I just pour liquid chlorine into the pool to maintain the chlorine
level at
least 7.5% of the cyanuric acid level. That's it for sanitation.
For saturation, there are a half dozen factors, only half of which do
you
have any amount of control over, the other half (like temperature) are
out
of your hands so it's a game of matching the saturation index with the
expected temperatures combined with the dilution when it rains and the
concentration when it evaporates and you have to fill with city water.
I would think battery chemistry has the same "type" of equilibrium
constants (Pka is what we deal with in pool chemistry) though.
Just different chemicals and more redox stuff.
You want the spark when disconnecting to be AWAY from the
rapidly charging battery.
So: Run the negative from frame to frame,
and disconnect at the rescue car first.
David Lesher <[email protected]> wrote
You want the spark when disconnecting to be AWAY from the
rapidly charging battery.
There is no hydrogen when the once flat battery
is being charged once the engine has started.
So: Run the negative from frame to frame,
and disconnect at the rescue car first.
Rod Speed wrote on 1/19/2023 3:41 PM:
David Lesher <[email protected]> wrote
You want the spark when disconnecting to be AWAY from the
rapidly charging battery.
There is no hydrogen when the once flat battery
is being charged once the engine has started.
So: Run the negative from frame to frame,
and disconnect at the rescue car first.
I real life scenario there is no danger of hydrogen accumulation under
the hood because it is too airy inside the engine compartment.
There will be danger of hydrogen accumulation if the lead-acid battery
is confined inside a box, like underneath a motorized wheelchair.
=?UTF-8?B?TWlnaHR54pyFIFdhbm5hYmXinIU=?= <@.> writes:
Rod Speed wrote on 1/19/2023 3:41 PM:Then why do space launch vehicles use burners to ensure that any H2
David Lesher <[email protected]> wrote
You want the spark when disconnecting to be AWAY from theThere is no hydrogen when the once flat battery
rapidly charging battery.
is being charged once the engine has started.
So: Run the negative from frame to frame,
and disconnect at the rescue car first.
I real life scenario there is no danger of hydrogen accumulation under
the hood because it is too airy inside the engine compartment.
There will be danger of hydrogen accumulation if the lead-acid battery
is confined inside a box, like underneath a motorized wheelchair.
that pools around the launch site is burned off before launch?
Far more "airy" environment than any automobile engine compartment.
Scott Lurndal wrote on 1/19/2023 5:04 PM:
=?UTF-8?B?TWlnaHR54pyFIFdhbm5hYmXinIU=?= <@.> writes:
Rod Speed wrote on 1/19/2023 3:41 PM:Then why do space launch vehicles use burners to ensure that any H2
David Lesher <[email protected]> wrote
You want the spark when disconnecting to be AWAY from theThere is no hydrogen when the once flat battery
rapidly charging battery.
is being charged once the engine has started.
So: Run the negative from frame to frame,
and disconnect at the rescue car first.
I real life scenario there is no danger of hydrogen accumulation under
the hood because it is too airy inside the engine compartment.
There will be danger of hydrogen accumulation if the lead-acid battery
is confined inside a box, like underneath a motorized wheelchair.
that pools around the launch site is burned off before launch?
Have you actually seen a rocket launch?
=?UTF-8?B?TWlnaHR54pyFIFdhbm5hYmXinIU=?= <@.> writes:
Scott Lurndal wrote on 1/19/2023 5:04 PM:Yes, and a shuttle landing as a guest at Edwards. Note that the SLS uses shuttle main engines.
=?UTF-8?B?TWlnaHR54pyFIFdhbm5hYmXinIU=?= <@.> writes:
Rod Speed wrote on 1/19/2023 3:41 PM:Then why do space launch vehicles use burners to ensure that any H2
David Lesher <[email protected]> wroteI real life scenario there is no danger of hydrogen accumulation under >>>> the hood because it is too airy inside the engine compartment.
You want the spark when disconnecting to be AWAY from theThere is no hydrogen when the once flat battery
rapidly charging battery.
is being charged once the engine has started.
So: Run the negative from frame to frame,
and disconnect at the rescue car first.
There will be danger of hydrogen accumulation if the lead-acid battery >>>> is confined inside a box, like underneath a motorized wheelchair.
that pools around the launch site is burned off before launch?
Have you actually seen a rocket launch?
https://space.stackexchange.com/questions/35983/what-are-the-sparks-flying-at-the-bottom-of-ssmes-at-the-time-of-launch
"At T minus 10 seconds, the "go for main engine start" command
is issued by the GLS. (The GLS retains the capability to command
main engine stop until just before the SRBs are ignited.) At this
time flares are ignited under the main engines to burn away any
residual gaseous hydrogen that may have collected in the vicinity
of the main engine nozzles. A half second later, the flight
computers order the opening of valves which allow the liquid
hydrogen and oxygen to flow into the engine's turbopumps."
Rod Speed wrote on 1/19/2023 3:41 PM:
David Lesher <[email protected]> wrote
You want the spark when disconnecting to be AWAY from the
rapidly charging battery.
There is no hydrogen when the once flat battery
is being charged once the engine has started.
So: Run the negative from frame to frame,
and disconnect at the rescue car first.
I real life scenario there is no danger of hydrogen accumulation under
the hood because it is too airy inside the engine compartment.
There will be danger of hydrogen accumulation if the lead-acid battery
is confined inside a box, like underneath a motorized wheelchair.
=?UTF-8?B?TWlnaHR54pyFIFdhbm5hYmXinIU=?= <@.> writes:
Rod Speed wrote on 1/19/2023 3:41 PM:
David Lesher <[email protected]> wrote
You want the spark when disconnecting to be AWAY from the
rapidly charging battery.
There is no hydrogen when the once flat battery
is being charged once the engine has started.
So: Run the negative from frame to frame,
and disconnect at the rescue car first.
I real life scenario there is no danger of hydrogen accumulation under
the hood because it is too airy inside the engine compartment.
There will be danger of hydrogen accumulation if the lead-acid battery
is confined inside a box, like underneath a motorized wheelchair.
Then why do space launch vehicles use burners to ensure that any H2
that pools around the launch site is burned off before launch?
Far more "airy" environment than any automobile engine compartment.
=?UTF-8?B?TWlnaHR54pyFIFdhbm5hYmXinIU=?= <@.> writes:
Scott Lurndal wrote on 1/19/2023 5:04 PM:
=?UTF-8?B?TWlnaHR54pyFIFdhbm5hYmXinIU=?= <@.> writes:
Rod Speed wrote on 1/19/2023 3:41 PM:Then why do space launch vehicles use burners to ensure that any H2
David Lesher <[email protected]> wrote
You want the spark when disconnecting to be AWAY from theThere is no hydrogen when the once flat battery
rapidly charging battery.
is being charged once the engine has started.
So: Run the negative from frame to frame,
and disconnect at the rescue car first.
I real life scenario there is no danger of hydrogen accumulation under >>>> the hood because it is too airy inside the engine compartment.
There will be danger of hydrogen accumulation if the lead-acid battery >>>> is confined inside a box, like underneath a motorized wheelchair.
that pools around the launch site is burned off before launch?
Have you actually seen a rocket launch?
Yes, and a shuttle landing as a guest at Edwards. Note that the SLS uses shuttle main engines.
https://space.stackexchange.com/questions/35983/what-are-the-sparks-flying-at-the-bottom-of-ssmes-at-the-time-of-launch
"At T minus 10 seconds, the "go for main engine start" command
is issued by the GLS. (The GLS retains the capability to command
main engine stop until just before the SRBs are ignited.) At this
time flares are ignited under the main engines to burn away any
residual gaseous hydrogen that may have collected in the vicinity
of the main engine nozzles. A half second later, the flight
computers order the opening of valves which allow the liquid
hydrogen and oxygen to flow into the engine's turbopumps."
When I looked up how to jump a car battery, they tell you WHAT to do, but
not WHY, which is infuriating as it's harder to remember unless you know
why.
https://blog.napacanada.com/en/how-to-safely-and-quickly-recharge-a-dead-car-battery/
First they say the cars shouldn't touch.
Why?
Then they said positive first.
Why?
Once started, they say remove the negative cable first.
Why?
Here, they say adding water damages the batteries. Why? https://www.uetechnologies.com/add-water-to-battery-before-or-after-charging/
And how often do you need to add water?
This says to add water after every ten charging cycles?
Isn't that like every ten days?
And how do you know how much to add?
They say add water to the "splash plate" but what is that?
They say the six chambers produce 2.1 volts each for 12.6 volts?
Isn't it more than that?
They say adding water before charging will make it overflow.
Does it really change the water level that much from dead to charged?
And what happens if you tap water instead of distilled?
On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 04:54:10 +1100, John Robertson <[email protected]>
wrote:
On 2023/01/17 8:33 p.m., mike wrote:
On 18-01-2023 09:40 Clifford Heath <[email protected]> wrote:
In case there is any hydrogen gas that has developed in the batteryThank you for trying to explain why they said here to connect + first. >>> https://blog.napacanada.com/en/how-to-safely-and-quickly-recharge-a-dead-car-battery/
and may be still concentrated enough to burn, any spark from
completing the circuit should be made at some distance from the
battery. That is, but connecting the earth to some metal part of the
chassis, not to the battery terminal itself.
Isn't there a spark no matter what cable is the last point to be
connected?
The chassis is (usually) negative, which is why that is the firstI'm not disputing that since I'm the one asking the question, but
and last contact point.
didn't
that article above say the opposite?
They said to connect a negative cable last to the chassis of the dead
car.
The point is to first connect the positive lead to the battery
positive, and then the negative lead AWAY FROM THE BATTERY by
connecting to the engine metal. In that order for safety.
After the engine starts, then disconnect the negative lead that is
AWAY FROM THE BATTERY so any spark created at the disconnect point is
unlikely to cause the battery to explode if hydrogen gas was created.
Perhaps you left the jumpers connected for a few minutes while
charging the battery which leads to more hydrogen gas
No, because the battery doesn't gas unless it is being charged when
fully charged already and that won't be happening with either battery.
which makes a spark more and more likely/dangerous as time goes on...
On 2023-01-19 02:01, Rod Speed wrote:
On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 04:54:10 +1100, John Robertson <[email protected]>
wrote:
After the engine starts, then disconnect the negative lead that is
AWAY FROM THE BATTERY so any spark created at the disconnect point is
unlikely to cause the battery to explode if hydrogen gas was created.
No, because the battery doesn't gas unless it is being charged when
fully charged already and that won't be happening with either battery.
The "bad" battery will start charging when connected, and there will be
no current limiting.
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