What about the impact of the sausage curbs? I think that part of the problem was Max's bounce from hitting that curb. One of the Sky voices was pretty adamant that those curbs are the real hazard and, likely, unnecessary.

To that point, what happens if:

1. There is a wall instead of the curbing? Does that change how the drivers approach the corner and the outcome of this particular incident?

or

2. There was a standard, lower curb? Does Max simply roll over it and the fight moves on?

In my opinion, the apparent openness of the corner (that is, drivers not necessarily seeing the sausage curb in the heat of the moment) allowed for more aggressive actions. If there were a wall, perhaps Hamilton would run further to his right or Max
would have backed off. If there were a regular curb, Max would not have bounced back into Lewis' car.

FWIW
DLM

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On 14/09/2021 10:20 am, D Munz wrote:

What about the impact of the sausage curbs? I think that part of the problem was Max's bounce from hitting that curb. One of the Sky voices was pretty adamant that those curbs are the real hazard and, likely, unnecessary.

To that point, what happens if:

1. There is a wall instead of the curbing? Does that change how the drivers approach the corner and the outcome of this particular incident?

or

2. There was a standard, lower curb? Does Max simply roll over it and the fight moves on?

In my opinion, the apparent openness of the corner (that is, drivers not necessarily seeing the sausage curb in the heat of the moment) allowed for more aggressive actions. If there were a wall, perhaps Hamilton would run further to his right or Max

would have backed off. If there were a regular curb, Max would not have bounced back into Lewis' car.

Yet another different question: Why was it only an issue with Max? Everyone else knew that, if you
didn't have room to get around the corner, then straight-line it and avoid hitting the sausage
kerbs at an angle.

I don't necessarily think they're a good thing but they are, in effect, a de-facto brick wall
without the consequences of hitting a brick wall. Everyone else avoided them (or at least hitting
them at an angle / getting beached on them). One person ignoring the consequences doesn't mean the
mechanism is wrong - it means that person made the wrong choice.

If it were a standard lower kerb than Max might well have got away with passing off-track -
something almost everyone has been vocal about disliking lately.
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy little classification
in the DSM"
David Melville

This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any half-arsed self-promoting software.

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On 14/09/2021 12:50 pm, ~misfit~ wrote:

On 14/09/2021 10:20 am, D Munz wrote:

What about the impact of the sausage curbs? I think that part of the
problem was Max's bounce from hitting that curb. One of the Sky voices
was pretty adamant that those curbs are the real hazard and, likely,
unnecessary.

To that point, what happens if:

1. There is a wall instead of the curbing? Does that change how the
drivers approach the corner and the outcome of this particular incident?

or

2. There was a standard, lower curb? Does Max simply roll over it and
the fight moves on?

In my opinion, the apparent openness of the corner (that is, drivers
not necessarily seeing the sausage curb in the heat of the moment)
allowed for more aggressive actions. If there were a wall, perhaps
Hamilton would run further to his right or Max would have backed off.
If there were a regular curb, Max would not have bounced back into
Lewis' car.

Yet another different question: Why was it only an issue with Max?
Everyone else knew that, if you didn't have room to get around the
corner, then straight-line it and avoid hitting the sausage kerbs at an angle.

I don't necessarily think they're a good thing but they are, in effect,
a de-facto brick wall without the consequences of hitting a brick wall. Everyone else avoided them (or at least hitting them at an angle /
getting beached on them). One person ignoring the consequences doesn't
mean the mechanism is wrong - it means that person made the wrong choice.

If it were a standard lower kerb than Max might well have got away with passing off-track - something almost everyone has been vocal about
disliking lately.

The right thing to do was exactly what HAM did in the same situation
earlier, same place, protagonists swapped.

geoff

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On 13/09/2021 22:20, D Munz wrote:

What about the impact of the sausage curbs? I think that part of the problem was Max's bounce from hitting that curb. One of the Sky voices was pretty adamant that those curbs are the real hazard and, likely, unnecessary.

IMV the sausage kerbs were that 'last act' in the drama that that ended
in the crash. All of the other components of the incident form part of
racing, and had some form of 'normal kerb' been in place, Max would have
cut the corner, likely come out in front, and in the usual way, given
the place back and the racing would carry on.

Considering that sausage kerbs have damaged cars in the past, surely a
better form of 'deterrent' could be devised, electronic* if not
physical. This is a high-tech sport, after all, and lumps of concrete
represent the dinosaur era of motor racing.

* Sensors on the track and car, beep in the driver's earpiece if the
limit is exceeded, flag comes up on the stewards monitor. No more
'saving tyres' by going very wide on the unmonitored corners.


--
JohnM

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On 2021-09-14 1:36 a.m., JohnM wrote:

On 13/09/2021 22:20, D Munz wrote:

What about the impact of the sausage curbs? I think that part of the
problem was Max's bounce from hitting that curb. One of the Sky voices
was pretty adamant that those curbs are the real hazard and, likely,
unnecessary.

IMV the sausage kerbs were that 'last act' in the drama that that ended
in the crash. All of the other components of the incident form part of racing, and had some form of 'normal kerb' been in place, Max would have
cut the corner, likely come out in front, and in the usual way, given
the place back and the racing would carry on.

Considering that sausage kerbs have damaged cars in the past, surely a
better form of 'deterrent' could be devised, electronic* if not
physical. This is a high-tech sport, after all, and lumps of concrete represent the dinosaur era of motor racing.

* Sensors on the track and car, beep in the driver's earpiece if the
limit is exceeded, flag comes up on the stewards monitor. No more
'saving tyres' by going very wide on the unmonitored corners.

I've often wonder this too.

There's already a transponder on the car for timing as it crosses the
timing "loop" at start/finish.

How hard could it be to put similar loops in the places where an
advantage can be gained by going off the track?

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On Tuesday, September 14, 2021 at 2:01:23 PM UTC-6, Alan Baker wrote:

I've often wonder this too.

Not surprising.
Without a fucking life.

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Alan Baker <[email protected]> wrote:

On 2021-09-14 1:36 a.m., JohnM wrote:

* Sensors on the track and car, beep in the driver's earpiece if the
limit is exceeded, flag comes up on the stewards monitor. No more
'saving tyres' by going very wide on the unmonitored corners.

I've often wonder this too.

There's already a transponder on the car for timing as it crosses the
timing "loop" at start/finish.

How hard could it be to put similar loops in the places where an
advantage can be gained by going off the track?

I would say this is very hard.

The transponder only has to be on a single position on the car and
trigger the sensors in a consistent way to represent "I am crossing the start/finish line".

With corners - and, worse, chicanes - you car about all four corners of
the car relative to the track, and the kinds of sensors and transponders required to either reliably "beep" when off (or not beep when "not off")
would be fiendishly tricky. I'm not saying impossible, but I think the
vairious car geometries (despite the formula) combined with the
different shapes and racing lines for the corners make this harder than
we realise.

Perhaps an alternative (though I'm sure there would be arguments) could
be that that cameras and some clever AI algorithms would be more
reliable for this kind of thing.

Any solution would need (in either case) plenty of experimentation to
get right in a fair manner; you don't want (say) the Red Bull triggering
it when it's on the edge of acceptability while Mercedes is able to take advantage...

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On 2021-09-15 1:46 a.m., Mark wrote:

Alan Baker <[email protected]> wrote:

On 2021-09-14 1:36 a.m., JohnM wrote:

* Sensors on the track and car, beep in the driver's earpiece if the
limit is exceeded, flag comes up on the stewards monitor. No more
'saving tyres' by going very wide on the unmonitored corners.

I've often wonder this too.

There's already a transponder on the car for timing as it crosses the
timing "loop" at start/finish.

How hard could it be to put similar loops in the places where an
advantage can be gained by going off the track?

I would say this is very hard.

The transponder only has to be on a single position on the car and
trigger the sensors in a consistent way to represent "I am crossing the start/finish line".

With corners - and, worse, chicanes - you car about all four corners of
the car relative to the track, and the kinds of sensors and transponders required to either reliably "beep" when off (or not beep when "not off") would be fiendishly tricky. I'm not saying impossible, but I think the vairious car geometries (despite the formula) combined with the
different shapes and racing lines for the corners make this harder than
we realise.

Perhaps an alternative (though I'm sure there would be arguments) could
be that that cameras and some clever AI algorithms would be more
reliable for this kind of thing.

Any solution would need (in either case) plenty of experimentation to
get right in a fair manner; you don't want (say) the Red Bull triggering
it when it's on the edge of acceptability while Mercedes is able to take advantage...

I don't think this is as big a problem as you imagine.

Imagine a transponder on the centre line of the car at (say) the front
wheels.

If the entire car is off the track in any orientation that corresponds
with the slip angles of a modern racing car, then the centre line of the
car is one half car width further off the track, so place your detection
loop one half a car width from the edge of the track.

There is no way that the system will trigger except when both front
wheels are off the race track. And while it is POSSIBLE that the car
might be understeering so much that a rear tire might still be on the
track, it doesn't matter...

...because there will be a consistent limit.


Let's look at Monza's first chicane as an example.

Place a detection line all the way around the first apex such that even
if the driver goes to the of it, there's no way he can come back on with
out triggering it. All the way out to a point that intersects the right
edge of the track on the exit of the second chicane would do it.

Similarly, the detection line for the second apex wraps around it all
the way from a line that intersects the left hand side of the front
straight until (say) a car's length beyond the actual racing apex. Now
there is no way to cut the second apex in a way that gains you an
advantage.

Finally, add a detection line for corner exit where cars normally track
out; extending it to cover both early and late track outs.

I'll draw it:

<https://www.dropbox.com/s/vgjlfci4jzi5i6s/Monza%20Chicane.png?dl=0>

Now. Please show me how you could drive through there such that:

1. You don't trigger a detection line if you cut any part of the chicane.

or

2. You do trigger a detection line while remaining on the track.


That it won't be precisely the same limit as previously doesn't present
any problem. All you need is for participants in a sport to have a
consistent rule that they CAN adhere to.

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