No penalty for VER - what a surprise after being let off by Ferrari.The underlying rule is that the driver attempting to overtake has the obligation to do so safely.
" The team representative of Car 44 confirmed that there was no contact between both cars and further stated that the driver of Car 44 chose not
to attempt to remain on track."
WTF ?!!! HAM chose to avoid being hit by VER !
No penalty for VER - what a surprise after being let off by Ferrari.
" The team representative of Car 44 confirmed that there was no contact >between both cars and further stated that the driver of Car 44 chose not
to attempt to remain on track."
WTF ?!!! HAM chose to avoid being hit by VER !
On 4/08/2025 6:33 pm, Yazoo wrote:
On Mon, 4 Aug 2025 15:46:11 +1200, Geoff <[email protected]>
wrote:
No penalty for VER - what a surprise after being let off by Ferrari.
" The team representative of Car 44 confirmed that there was no contact
between both cars and further stated that the driver of Car 44 chose not >>> to attempt to remain on track."
WTF ?!!! HAM chose to avoid being hit by VER !
Smart move. Hamilton knew that idiot would rather hit him, so he
decided to avoid the collision and remain in the race.
Yep. And a penalty to Verstappen post-race wouldn't have helped Hamilton
so why waste time visiting the stewards? Lodging the penalty and then
Max having to attend the stewards was as much of a penalty as anything
else.
On 5/08/2025 12:03 pm, ~misfit~ wrote:
On 4/08/2025 6:33 pm, Yazoo wrote:
On Mon, 4 Aug 2025 15:46:11 +1200, Geoff <[email protected]>
wrote:
No penalty for VER - what a surprise after being let off by Ferrari.
" The team representative of Car 44 confirmed that there was no contact >>>> between both cars and further stated that the driver of Car 44 chose
not
to attempt to remain on track."
WTF ?!!! HAM chose to avoid being hit by VER !
Smart move. Hamilton knew that idiot would rather hit him, so he
decided to avoid the collision and remain in the race.
Yep. And a penalty to Verstappen post-race wouldn't have helped
Hamilton so why waste time visiting the stewards? Lodging the penalty
and then Max having to attend the stewards was as much of a penalty as
anything else.
Irrespective of the effect on the other driver's race, no action
effectively implies that the illegal driving is OK to do. Should get
some demerit points for it at least.
On 8/3/2025 11:46 PM, Geoff wrote:
No penalty for VER - what a surprise after being let off by Ferrari.
" The team representative of Car 44 confirmed that there was no
contact between both cars and further stated that the driver of Car 44
chose not to attempt to remain on track."
WTF ?!!! HAM chose to avoid being hit by VER !
86 the HAM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vl9fFwUzmP4
On 8/3/2025 11:46 PM, Geoff wrote:
No penalty for VER - what a surprise after being let off by Ferrari.
" The team representative of Car 44 confirmed that there was no
contact between both cars and further stated that the driver of Car 44
chose not to attempt to remain on track."
WTF ?!!! HAM chose to avoid being hit by VER !
86 the HAM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vl9fFwUzmP4
On 6/08/2025 3:57 am, News wrote:
On 8/3/2025 11:46 PM, Geoff wrote:
No penalty for VER - what a surprise after being let off by Ferrari.
" The team representative of Car 44 confirmed that there was no
contact between both cars and further stated that the driver of Car
44 chose not to attempt to remain on track."
WTF ?!!! HAM chose to avoid being hit by VER !
86 the HAM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vl9fFwUzmP4
A rather bizarre take - "AM didn't turn up to DEFEND himself" ???!!!
On 6/08/2025 10:13 am, Geoff wrote:
On 6/08/2025 3:57 am, News wrote:
On 8/3/2025 11:46 PM, Geoff wrote:
No penalty for VER - what a surprise after being let off by Ferrari.
" The team representative of Car 44 confirmed that there was no
contact between both cars and further stated that the driver of Car
44 chose not to attempt to remain on track."
WTF ?!!! HAM chose to avoid being hit by VER !
86 the HAM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vl9fFwUzmP4
A rather bizarre take - "AM didn't turn up to DEFEND himself" ???!!!
"HAM ..."
No penalty for VER - what a surprise after being let off by Ferrari.
" The team representative of Car 44 confirmed that there was no contact between both cars and further stated that the driver of Car 44 chose not
to attempt to remain on track."
WTF ?!!! HAM chose to avoid being hit by VER !
Carl Keehn <[email protected]> wrote:
On 8/3/2025 11:46 PM, Geoff wrote:
No penalty for VER - what a surprise after being let off by Ferrari.
" The team representative of Car 44 confirmed that there was no contact
between both cars and further stated that the driver of Car 44 chose not >>> to attempt to remain on track."
WTF ?!!! HAM chose to avoid being hit by VER !
I believe that Anthony Davidson summed it up best (only because he
agreed with my judgment).
Clearly, Max Verstappen was at fault. FIA regulations state that on an
overtake, if the front wheel of the overtaking car is even to the mirror
of the leading car, he has a right to the corner.
If the overtaking car is not even to the mirror, he has to yield to the
leading driver. Max's front wheels were not that far advanced, he did
not have the right to the corner. Lewis Hamilton "chose" to not contest
the corner. He was in 12th place and nothing would change that. Why
chance damaging or wrecking your car on a pointless corner.
It showed maturity on Lewis part. He weighed the potential gains, he
weighed the potential consequences and they did'nt balance out.
I agree with that. What I /don't/ understand is the stewards. The
application of rules - where evidence like this exist - should be
regardless of whether Hamilton is there or not. Yes, it means that there
are certain bits of evidence that won't be challenged in the same way
without a driver complainant, but to say that his absence means that we
can disregard any rule breaking by Verstappen makes a farce of the
process.
Not only does this kind of ruling mean that the rules are even less
uniformly applied, but also that precedents are set which everyone has
to live by...which you can bet Red Bull will refer back to in future incidents.
I remember the thing I disliked in the 80s with Senna and later with Schumacher was not the occasions when their (fantastic) aggressive
driving styles led to incidents - they often had to live with
consequences there - but rather how often they benefited from people
"jumping out of the way" to /avoid/ incidents. That gave them an
advantage which was nothing to do with their driving talent, but instead
was a reflection of their lack of fear of any consequences to their aggression.
Verstappen has always had an aggressive driving style - particularly
when on the back foot - and the only curb on that was application of penalties. He benefited massively from this in the past...but had calmed things down. You can see that now he's not leading the WDC and WCC the
more aggressive side has come back, and it needs to be addressed or some
of Verstappen's worst behaviours will be back for good.
IMO.
Mark
Carl Keehn <[email protected]> wrote:
On 8/3/2025 11:46 PM, Geoff wrote:
No penalty for VER - what a surprise after being let off by Ferrari.
" The team representative of Car 44 confirmed that there was no contact
between both cars and further stated that the driver of Car 44 chose not >>> to attempt to remain on track."
WTF ?!!! HAM chose to avoid being hit by VER !
I believe that Anthony Davidson summed it up best (only because he
agreed with my judgment).
Clearly, Max Verstappen was at fault. FIA regulations state that on an
overtake, if the front wheel of the overtaking car is even to the mirror
of the leading car, he has a right to the corner.
If the overtaking car is not even to the mirror, he has to yield to the
leading driver. Max's front wheels were not that far advanced, he did
not have the right to the corner. Lewis Hamilton "chose" to not contest
the corner. He was in 12th place and nothing would change that. Why
chance damaging or wrecking your car on a pointless corner.
It showed maturity on Lewis part. He weighed the potential gains, he
weighed the potential consequences and they did'nt balance out.
I agree with that. What I /don't/ understand is the stewards. The
application of rules - where evidence like this exist - should be
regardless of whether Hamilton is there or not. Yes, it means that there
are certain bits of evidence that won't be challenged in the same way
without a driver complainant, but to say that his absence means that we
can disregard any rule breaking by Verstappen makes a farce of the
process.
Not only does this kind of ruling mean that the rules are even less
uniformly applied, but also that precedents are set which everyone has
to live by...which you can bet Red Bull will refer back to in future incidents.
I remember the thing I disliked in the 80s with Senna and later with Schumacher was not the occasions when their (fantastic) aggressive
driving styles led to incidents - they often had to live with
consequences there - but rather how often they benefited from people
"jumping out of the way" to /avoid/ incidents. That gave them an
advantage which was nothing to do with their driving talent, but instead
was a reflection of their lack of fear of any consequences to their aggression.
Verstappen has always had an aggressive driving style - particularly
when on the back foot - and the only curb on that was application of penalties. He benefited massively from this in the past...but had calmed things down. You can see that now he's not leading the WDC and WCC the
more aggressive side has come back, and it needs to be addressed or some
of Verstappen's worst behaviours will be back for good.
No penalty for VER - what a surprise after being let off by Ferrari.
" The team representative of Car 44 confirmed that there was no contact between both cars and further stated that the driver of Car 44 chose not
to attempt to remain on track."
WTF ?!!! HAM chose to avoid being hit by VER !
I really hope that next year's Red Bull is an absolute dog of a car and he >gets fed up enough of it that he quits the sport, as he's threatened to do
on occaision. Can't wait to see the back of Team Verstappen...
On 2025-08-11 02:25, Yazoo wrote:
On Sat, 09 Aug 2025 07:26:02 +0100, [email protected] (scole)
wrote:
...
I really hope that next year's Red Bull is an absolute dog of a car
and he
gets fed up enough of it that he quits the sport, as he's threatened
to do
on occaision. Can't wait to see the back of Team Verstappen...
Well, personally I'd like to see him go. He is a good driver, but not
respectable in any way. I would not miss him.
He's not that much different than any other F1 driver.
On Sat, 09 Aug 2025 07:26:02 +0100, [email protected] (scole)
wrote:
...
I really hope that next year's Red Bull is an absolute dog of a car and he >> gets fed up enough of it that he quits the sport, as he's threatened to do >> on occaision. Can't wait to see the back of Team Verstappen...
Well, personally I'd like to see him go. He is a good driver, but not respectable in any way. I would not miss him.
On 8/11/2025 1:20 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-08-11 02:25, Yazoo wrote:
On Sat, 09 Aug 2025 07:26:02 +0100, [email protected] (scole)
wrote:
...
I really hope that next year's Red Bull is an absolute dog of a car
and he
gets fed up enough of it that he quits the sport, as he's threatened
to do
on occaision. Can't wait to see the back of Team Verstappen...
Well, personally I'd like to see him go. He is a good driver, but not
respectable in any way. I would not miss him.
He's not that much different than any other F1 driver.
It only appears that way if one uses a log scale.
On 2025-08-11 10:50, Mark Jackson wrote:
On 8/11/2025 1:20 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-08-11 02:25, Yazoo wrote:
On Sat, 09 Aug 2025 07:26:02 +0100, [email protected] (scole)
wrote:
...
I really hope that next year's Red Bull is an absolute dog of a car
and he
gets fed up enough of it that he quits the sport, as he's threatened >>>>> to do
on occaision. Can't wait to see the back of Team Verstappen...
Well, personally I'd like to see him go. He is a good driver, but not
respectable in any way. I would not miss him.
He's not that much different than any other F1 driver.
It only appears that way if one uses a log scale.
Nope.
While there are certainly exceptions, more F1 drivers are like
Verstappen than you might think.
It's just that we don't see it as much.
On Mon, 11 Aug 2025 11:28:34 -0700, Alan <[email protected]> wrote:
On 2025-08-11 10:50, Mark Jackson wrote:
On 8/11/2025 1:20 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-08-11 02:25, Yazoo wrote:
On Sat, 09 Aug 2025 07:26:02 +0100, [email protected] (scole) >>>>> wrote:
...
I really hope that next year's Red Bull is an absolute dog of a car >>>>>> and he
gets fed up enough of it that he quits the sport, as he's threatened >>>>>> to do
on occaision. Can't wait to see the back of Team Verstappen...
Well, personally I'd like to see him go. He is a good driver, but not >>>>> respectable in any way. I would not miss him.
He's not that much different than any other F1 driver.
It only appears that way if one uses a log scale.
Nope.
While there are certainly exceptions, more F1 drivers are like
Verstappen than you might think.
It's just that we don't see it as much.
We can agree to disagree.
I've been following F1 since mid-seventies.
There were some competitive and arrogant drivers: Hunt, Senna, Alonso, Michael Schumacher, Jacques Villeneuve, Montoya, Nelson Piquet,But each of those you've mentioned was in the spotlight.
Hamilton.
But only match in this regard with Max Vertsapen could be Michael
Scumacher. These two stand out in this group.
On 2025-08-12 00:15, Yazoo wrote:
On Mon, 11 Aug 2025 11:28:34 -0700, Alan <[email protected]> wrote:
On 2025-08-11 10:50, Mark Jackson wrote:
On 8/11/2025 1:20 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-08-11 02:25, Yazoo wrote:
On Sat, 09 Aug 2025 07:26:02 +0100, [email protected] (scole) >>>>>> wrote:
...
I really hope that next year's Red Bull is an absolute dog of a car >>>>>>> and he
gets fed up enough of it that he quits the sport, as he's threatened >>>>>>> to do
on occaision. Can't wait to see the back of Team Verstappen...
Well, personally I'd like to see him go. He is a good driver, but not >>>>>> respectable in any way. I would not miss him.
He's not that much different than any other F1 driver.
It only appears that way if one uses a log scale.
Nope.
While there are certainly exceptions, more F1 drivers are like
Verstappen than you might think.
It's just that we don't see it as much.
We can agree to disagree.
I've been following F1 since mid-seventies.
So have I.
But each of those you've mentioned was in the spotlight.
There were some competitive and arrogant drivers: Hunt, Senna, Alonso,
Michael Schumacher, Jacques Villeneuve, Montoya, Nelson Piquet,
Hamilton.
But only match in this regard with Max Vertsapen could be Michael
Scumacher. These two stand out in this group.
On 12/08/2025 7:46 pm, Alan wrote:
On 2025-08-12 00:15, Yazoo wrote:
On Mon, 11 Aug 2025 11:28:34 -0700, Alan <[email protected]> wrote:
On 2025-08-11 10:50, Mark Jackson wrote:
On 8/11/2025 1:20 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-08-11 02:25, Yazoo wrote:
On Sat, 09 Aug 2025 07:26:02 +0100, [email protected]
(scole)
wrote:
...
I really hope that next year's Red Bull is an absolute dog of a car >>>>>>>> and he
gets fed up enough of it that he quits the sport, as he's
threatened
to do
on occaision. Can't wait to see the back of Team Verstappen...
Well, personally I'd like to see him go. He is a good driver, but >>>>>>> not
respectable in any way. I would not miss him.
He's not that much different than any other F1 driver.
It only appears that way if one uses a log scale.
Nope.
While there are certainly exceptions, more F1 drivers are like
Verstappen than you might think.
It's just that we don't see it as much.
We can agree to disagree.
I've been following F1 since mid-seventies.
So have I.
But each of those you've mentioned was in the spotlight.
There were some competitive and arrogant drivers: Hunt, Senna, Alonso,
Michael Schumacher, Jacques Villeneuve, Montoya, Nelson Piquet,
Hamilton.
But only match in this regard with Max Vertsapen could be Michael
Scumacher. These two stand out in this group.
Yeh, but that was part of why they were in the spotlight.
In article <[email protected]>, Yazoo
<[email protected]> wrote:
On Mon, 11 Aug 2025 11:28:34 -0700, Alan <[email protected]> wrote:
Nope.
While there are certainly exceptions, more F1 drivers are like
Verstappen than you might think.
It's just that we don't see it as much.
We can agree to disagree.
I've been following F1 since mid-seventies.
There were some competitive and arrogant drivers: Hunt, Senna, Alonso,
Michael Schumacher, Jacques Villeneuve, Montoya, Nelson Piquet,
Hamilton.
But only match in this regard with Max Vertsapen could be Michael
Scumacher. These two stand out in this group.
Agreed. Watching the Hill documentary reminded me why I hated Schumacher
back in the 90s, he was just an awful, arrogant, unsporting prick, same as Verstappen often defaults to.
Geoff <[email protected]> wrote:
On 12/08/2025 7:46 pm, Alan wrote:
On 2025-08-12 00:15, Yazoo wrote:
We can agree to disagree.
I've been following F1 since mid-seventies.
So have I.
But each of those you've mentioned was in the spotlight.
There were some competitive and arrogant drivers: Hunt, Senna, Alonso, >>>> Michael Schumacher, Jacques Villeneuve, Montoya, Nelson Piquet,
Hamilton.
But only match in this regard with Max Vertsapen could be Michael
Scumacher. These two stand out in this group.
Yeh, but that was part of why they were in the spotlight.
Don't bother, Geoff. We know Alan is a contrarian. He doesn't understand
the "part of" means "not only" or recognise that all of them were well
known at various times (and for various reasons) for aggressive driving.
It wasn't just "results" that made them famous at the time or since.
In most cases, I don't think it was unreasonable - the whole "If you no longer go for a gap which exists you are no longer a racing driver"
quote has merit
- but these pretty much all did things at times that
were well beyond reasonable. Verstappen isn't completely unique, but he
*is* an outlier even within that group. As Yazoo said, of that group I
would only really put Schumacher in the same group. He benefited not
just from when he was the best driver in the best car, he benefited from people jumping out of the way "just in case". It's on such fine margins
that you win additional WDCs. Verstappen is the same.
Some people have blinkers on.
<cue meaningless comment about being a racing driver and knowing better>
Alan <[email protected]> wrote:
On 2025-08-13 00:47, Mark wrote:
- but these pretty much all did things at times that
were well beyond reasonable. Verstappen isn't completely unique, but he
*is* an outlier even within that group. As Yazoo said, of that group I
would only really put Schumacher in the same group. He benefited not
just from when he was the best driver in the best car, he benefited from >>> people jumping out of the way "just in case". It's on such fine margins
that you win additional WDCs. Verstappen is the same.
Some people have blinkers on.
I have no blinkers on at all, but answer me this:
What was Ralf Schumacher like?
Oh, you don't know? Why is that?
And that's why I don't bother discussing stuff with you, Alan.
You have a theory and then have a conversation with yourself.
I remember Ralf perfectly well, so your point was...pointless.
They're almost ALL prima-donnas!
That's something I'm happy to agree with.
Doesn't mean that Verstappen isn't an outlier in his behaviour.
On 2025-08-13 01:38, scole wrote:
Agreed. Watching the Hill documentary reminded me why I hated Schumacher
back in the 90s, he was just an awful, arrogant, unsporting prick,
same as
Verstappen often defaults to.
Schumacher, in my opinion, was far worse than Verstappen has ever been.
Schumacher deliberately drove into people to win.
On 14/08/2025 5:37 am, Alan wrote:
On 2025-08-13 01:38, scole wrote:
Agreed. Watching the Hill documentary reminded me why I hated Schumacher >>> back in the 90s, he was just an awful, arrogant, unsporting prick,
same as
Verstappen often defaults to.
Schumacher, in my opinion, was far worse than Verstappen has ever been.
Schumacher deliberately drove into people to win.
As opposed to 'deliberately driven into people to stop them winning'.
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