• Trevor's Gun Control Plan....

    From Art Sackman@21:1/5 to All on Sun Jul 2 11:04:54 2023
    Would save, at most, at maximum 100% compliance, 66 lives per year.
    The more likely outcome would be about half that, 33 lives saved.

    350 million guns already on the streets
    A) about 17 million gun sales each year (5% of total number of guns)
    B) about 13% of those without background checks. (Gun sales without
    checks are .065% of existing guns)

    So..... Eliminating the unchecked sales would reduce our total
    gun inventory by only 0.65% and woud]l reduce our gun deaths by
    a corresponding .065%, or about 666 deaths.

    And that would be only if the program were 100% effective.

    And criminals being criminals, they don't obey our existing laws,
    and they won't be obeying the new ones.

    So at 50% compliance, Trevor's plan saves 33 lives.

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  • From Fascist Flea@21:1/5 to All on Sun Jul 2 11:43:23 2023
    mINE109 wrote:

    So..... Eliminating the unchecked sales would reduce our total
    gun inventory by only 0.65% and woud]l reduce our gun deaths by
    a corresponding .065%, or about 666 deaths.
    The back of your envelope is satanic.

    Is Sack-Shmoo smart enough to cook up an algorithm with all
    those IFs and THENs? I doubt it. He should admit to copping from
    his satanic master.

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  • From mINE109@21:1/5 to Art Sackman on Sun Jul 2 13:30:17 2023
    On 7/2/23 1:04 PM, Art Sackman wrote:

    So..... Eliminating the unchecked sales would reduce our total
    gun inventory by only 0.65% and woud]l reduce our gun deaths by
    a corresponding .065%, or about 666 deaths.
    The back of your envelope is satanic.

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  • From mINE109@21:1/5 to Fascist Flea on Sun Jul 2 14:33:09 2023
    On 7/2/23 1:43 PM, Fascist Flea wrote:
    mINE109 wrote:

    So..... Eliminating the unchecked sales would reduce our total
    gun inventory by only 0.65% and woud]l reduce our gun deaths by
    a corresponding .065%, or about 666 deaths.
    The back of your envelope is satanic.

    Is Sack-Shmoo smart enough to cook up an algorithm with all
    those IFs and THENs? I doubt it. He should admit to copping from
    his satanic master.

    I couldn't find a source for his text but search engines aren't set up
    for that in the way I remember. Do his typos indicate originality?

    I did quickly find a list of mass shootings with legally purchased guns:

    https://apnews.com/article/uvalde-school-shooting-buffalo-supermarket-texas-d1415e5a50eb85a50d5464970a225b2d

    I guess his argument is we have so many shootings with legal guns
    there's no point in background checks.

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  • From Trevor Wilson@21:1/5 to Art Sackman on Mon Jul 3 08:13:44 2023
    On 3/07/2023 4:04 am, Art Sackman wrote:
    Would save, at most, at maximum 100% compliance, 66 lives per year.
    The more likely outcome would be about half that, 33 lives saved.

    **Prove it.


    350 million guns already on the streets
    A) about 17 million gun sales each year (5% of total number of guns)
    B) about 13% of those without background checks. (Gun sales without
    checks are .065% of existing guns)

    **There's your problem, right there. Most murders are committed with
    illegally obtained firearms.


    So..... Eliminating the unchecked sales would reduce our total
    gun inventory by only 0.65% and woud]l reduce our gun deaths by
    a corresponding .065%, or about 666 deaths.

    **I realise that you have likely been told this for your entire life,
    but it does bear repeating: You are dumber than most people.

    Here's the thing: If you make it harder for drunks, drug addicts and
    violent people to buy firearms (legally or illegally), then the murder
    rate, via gunshot, will fall.


    And that would be only if the program were 100% effective.

    **Nothing is 100% effective. However, if the murder rate, via gunshot,
    can be reduced by even a small amount, then US society is safer and richer.


    And criminals being criminals, they don't obey our existing laws,
    and they won't be obeying the new ones.

    **That is a bogus claim. Criminals commit the smallest number of crimes
    they can, in order to further their aims. Drunks, drug addicts and
    insane people are excepted.


    So at 50% compliance, Trevor's plan saves 33 lives.

    **Let's say you are correct (and I do not believe for 1 millisecond that
    you are even close to the mark), saving 33 lives is a good thing. Not a
    bad thing. Let me give you an example:

    In 1991, Australia's finest heart surgeon (Victor Chang) was murdered,
    via gunshot, in a bungled kidnapping attempt. How many lives could
    Victor Chang have saved, had he not been shot? The murder of one,
    particularly valuable, member of society can have far reaching
    ramifications.

    Between 1984 and 1990, Chang's unit performed over 197 heart transplants
    and 14 heart-lung transplants. The unit had a high rate of success with
    90% of those receiving transplants from the unit surviving beyond the
    first year.

    How many more people could have been saved by Chang, had he survived?
    His murder shocked and disgusted all Australians.


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  • From Fascist Flea@21:1/5 to Trevor Wilson on Sun Jul 2 15:28:05 2023
    Trevor Wilson wrote:

    How many more people could have been saved by Chang, had he survived?
    His murder shocked and disgusted all Australians.

    Sacktard has a ready solution for that problem: More guns. Did you hear
    the NRA and their loonier exponents proposing that teachers be trained
    and armed? That is their "solution" to school shootings. "Good guys with guns" is their bloodthirsty fantasy to counter, as JEB! Bush put it, "stuff that happens".

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  • From Fascist Flea@21:1/5 to Trevor Wilson on Sun Jul 2 15:31:53 2023
    Trevor Wilson wrote:

    In 1991, Australia's finest heart surgeon (Victor Chang) was murdered,
    via gunshot, in a bungled kidnapping attempt.

    BTW, we had a very similar loss in 1980, when a cardiologist named
    Michael Halberstam was murdered in his own home. That was in Washington D.C., which is near to where Sackflack resides.

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  • From Trevor Wilson@21:1/5 to Art Sackman on Mon Jul 3 08:27:43 2023
    On 3/07/2023 4:04 am, Art Sackman wrote:
    Would save, at most, at maximum 100% compliance, 66 lives per year.
    The more likely outcome would be about half that, 33 lives saved.

    350 million guns already on the streets
    A) about 17 million gun sales each year (5% of total number of guns)
    B) about 13% of those without background checks. (Gun sales without
    checks are .065% of existing guns)

    So..... Eliminating the unchecked sales would reduce our total
    gun inventory by only 0.65% and woud]l reduce our gun deaths by
    a corresponding .065%, or about 666 deaths.

    And that would be only if the program were 100% effective.

    And criminals being criminals, they don't obey our existing laws,
    and they won't be obeying the new ones.

    So at 50% compliance, Trevor's plan saves 33 lives.

    **Read this moron:

    https://www.vox.com/2015/8/27/9212725/australia-buyback

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  • From ScottW@21:1/5 to Trevor Wilson on Sun Jul 2 15:54:56 2023
    On Sunday, July 2, 2023 at 3:13:48 PM UTC-7, Trevor Wilson wrote:


    Here's the thing: If you make it harder for drunks, drug addicts and
    violent people to buy firearms (legally or illegally), then the murder
    rate, via gunshot, will fall.

    And you be branded a racist by the left for your inequitable outcome of enforcement.

    ScottW

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  • From Fascist Flea@21:1/5 to All on Sun Jul 2 17:09:24 2023
    Pandora was a Shmoo. Who knew?

    Here's the thing: If you make it harder for drunks, drug addicts and violent people to buy firearms (legally or illegally), then the murder rate, via gunshot, will fall.
    And you be branded a racist by the left for your inequitable outcome of enforcement.

    It still surprises me how easily you seal up your hermetic victim pressure suit.

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  • From Art Sackman@21:1/5 to Trevor Wilson on Sun Jul 2 17:11:32 2023
    On Sunday, July 2, 2023 at 6:13:48 PM UTC-4, Trevor Wilson wrote:
    On 3/07/2023 4:04 am, Art Sackman wrote:
    Would save, at most, at maximum 100% compliance, 66 lives per year.
    The more likely outcome would be about half that, 33 lives saved.
    **Prove it.

    https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2018/mar/16/steve-bullock/what-percentage-gun-sales-are-done-without-backgro/


    350 million guns already on the streets
    A) about 17 million gun sales each year (5% of total number of guns)
    B) about 13% of those without background checks. (Gun sales without
    checks are .065% of existing guns)
    **There's your problem, right there. Most murders are committed with illegally obtained firearms.

    Lordy!!!!
    By criminals who already violate a multitude of existing firearms laws




    So..... Eliminating the unchecked sales would reduce our total
    gun inventory by only 0.65% and woud]l reduce our gun deaths by
    a corresponding .065%, or about 666 deaths.
    **I realise that you have likely been told this for your entire life,
    but it does bear repeating: You are dumber than most people.



    I made a typo, its only 66 deaths to be saved,

    Here's the thing: If you make it harder for drunks, drug addicts and
    violent people to buy firearms (legally or illegally), then the murder
    rate, via gunshot, will fall.

    Your proposal
    will not make it harder.
    those people will continue to buy guns illegally

    guns will be bought and sold illegally despite your proposals.
    And I must remind you that the number if guns sold each year is only
    5% of all the guns out on the streets, and only 13% of the guns sold are
    sold without background checks,

    You are chasing windmills into oblivion.



    And that would be only if the program were 100% effective.
    **Nothing is 100% effective. However, if the murder rate, via gunshot,
    can be reduced by even a small amount, then US society is safer and richer.

    And criminals being criminals, they don't obey our existing laws,
    and they won't be obeying the new ones.
    **That is a bogus claim. Criminals commit the smallest number of crimes
    they can, in order to further their aims. Drunks, drug addicts and
    insane people are excepted.

    They buy guns like they buy crack, meth, heroin, and fetanyl.
    Off of other criminals.




    So at 50% compliance, Trevor's plan saves 33 lives.
    **Let's say you are correct (and I do not believe for 1 millisecond that
    you are even close to the mark), saving 33 lives is a good thing. Not a
    bad thing. Let me give you an example:

    In 1991, Australia's finest heart surgeon (Victor Chang) was murdered,
    via gunshot, in a bungled kidnapping attempt. How many lives could
    Victor Chang have saved, had he not been shot? The murder of one, particularly valuable, member of society can have far reaching ramifications.

    So, then , by your "logic", if one worthless criminal guns down another worthless criminal, that's a good thing, because it also saves lives.

    And that if I good guy with a gun takes down an armed murderer,
    that's a good thng, as he saved lives.



    Between 1984 and 1990, Chang's unit performed over 197 heart transplants
    and 14 heart-lung transplants. The unit had a high rate of success with
    90% of those receiving transplants from the unit surviving beyond the
    first year.

    How many more people could have been saved by Chang, had he survived?
    His murder shocked and disgusted all Australians.




    Your proposal had about a 0.33% chance of averting Chang's death, had the incident happened in the US.


    Here are some examples of good guys with a gun have saved lives.

    https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/twelve-stories-about-good-guy-gun-progressives-wont-128052



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  • From Fascist Flea@21:1/5 to All on Sun Jul 2 17:17:17 2023
    Here's why Shmoos love "guns"...

    https://youtu.be/eIxrb6QNDO4

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  • From Art Sackman@21:1/5 to Trevor Wilson on Sun Jul 2 17:17:59 2023
    On Sunday, July 2, 2023 at 6:27:46 PM UTC-4, Trevor Wilson wrote:
    On 3/07/2023 4:04 am, Art Sackman wrote:
    Would save, at most, at maximum 100% compliance, 66 lives per year.
    The more likely outcome would be about half that, 33 lives saved.

    350 million guns already on the streets
    A) about 17 million gun sales each year (5% of total number of guns)
    B) about 13% of those without background checks. (Gun sales without
    checks are .065% of existing guns)

    So..... Eliminating the unchecked sales would reduce our total
    gun inventory by only 0.65% and woud]l reduce our gun deaths by
    a corresponding .065%, or about 666 deaths.

    And that would be only if the program were 100% effective.

    And criminals being criminals, they don't obey our existing laws,
    and they won't be obeying the new ones.

    So at 50% compliance, Trevor's plan saves 33 lives.
    **Read this moron:

    https://www.vox.com/2015/8/27/9212725/australia-buyback
    --

    That would save about 19 lives here.
    We have 350 million
    660 thousand is a drop in the bucket.
    Less than two tenths of a percent.

    That would save even fewer lives than your previous proposal.

    You're a fucking moron.

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  • From Trevor Wilson@21:1/5 to Fascist Flea on Mon Jul 3 14:15:48 2023
    On 3/07/2023 8:28 am, Fascist Flea wrote:
    Trevor Wilson wrote:

    How many more people could have been saved by Chang, had he survived?
    His murder shocked and disgusted all Australians.

    Sacktard has a ready solution for that problem: More guns. Did you hear
    the NRA and their loonier exponents proposing that teachers be trained
    and armed? That is their "solution" to school shootings. "Good guys with guns"
    is their bloodthirsty fantasy to counter, as JEB! Bush put it, "stuff that happens".


    **I am well-versed in the arguments put forward by gun loons. I've
    inhabited a US-centred gun loon group for a couple of decades. I even
    purchased Mary Rosh's (oops, sorry, that would be John Lott Jnr's) book
    - More Guns Less Crime, so I could ascertain the depths that gun loons
    would go to defend their hobby against common-sense and reason. In fact,
    I've argued with John Lott Jnr a couple of times. After I called him a
    liar (with proof), he skulked away.

    Arty has no idea that his so-called arguments are trivially easy to
    dismiss. My experience in this area is quite extensive.

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  • From Trevor Wilson@21:1/5 to ScottW on Mon Jul 3 14:16:48 2023
    On 3/07/2023 8:54 am, ScottW wrote:
    On Sunday, July 2, 2023 at 3:13:48 PM UTC-7, Trevor Wilson wrote:


    Here's the thing: If you make it harder for drunks, drug addicts and
    violent people to buy firearms (legally or illegally), then the murder
    rate, via gunshot, will fall.

    And you be branded a racist by the left for your inequitable outcome of enforcement.

    ScottW

    **No need. Just focus on the guns. Guns are not a racial group.

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  • From Trevor Wilson@21:1/5 to Art Sackman on Mon Jul 3 14:28:40 2023
    On 3/07/2023 10:11 am, Art Sackman wrote:
    On Sunday, July 2, 2023 at 6:13:48 PM UTC-4, Trevor Wilson wrote:
    On 3/07/2023 4:04 am, Art Sackman wrote:
    Would save, at most, at maximum 100% compliance, 66 lives per year.
    The more likely outcome would be about half that, 33 lives saved.
    **Prove it.

    https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2018/mar/16/steve-bullock/what-percentage-gun-sales-are-done-without-backgro/


    350 million guns already on the streets
    A) about 17 million gun sales each year (5% of total number of guns)
    B) about 13% of those without background checks. (Gun sales without
    checks are .065% of existing guns)
    **There's your problem, right there. Most murders are committed with
    illegally obtained firearms.

    Lordy!!!!
    By criminals who already violate a multitude of existing firearms laws

    **And, the big problem are the LEGAL gun owners who sell firearms to
    people who should not possess them.





    So..... Eliminating the unchecked sales would reduce our total
    gun inventory by only 0.65% and woud]l reduce our gun deaths by
    a corresponding .065%, or about 666 deaths.
    **I realise that you have likely been told this for your entire life,
    but it does bear repeating: You are dumber than most people.



    I made a typo, its only 66 deaths to be saved,

    Here's the thing: If you make it harder for drunks, drug addicts and
    violent people to buy firearms (legally or illegally), then the murder
    rate, via gunshot, will fall.

    Your proposal
    will not make it harder.

    **Oh goody. Tell us: What, PRECISELY, is my proposal?

    those people will continue to buy guns illegally

    **And yet, that is the reverse of what happens in Australia.


    guns will be bought and sold illegally despite your proposals.

    **Maybe, but the number of guns entering the system will be reduced.

    And I must remind you that the number if guns sold each year is only
    5% of all the guns out on the streets, and only 13% of the guns sold are
    sold without background checks,

    **Your wild guesses are just that: Wild guesses.


    You are chasing windmills into oblivion.



    And that would be only if the program were 100% effective.
    **Nothing is 100% effective. However, if the murder rate, via gunshot,
    can be reduced by even a small amount, then US society is safer and richer. >>>
    And criminals being criminals, they don't obey our existing laws,
    and they won't be obeying the new ones.
    **That is a bogus claim. Criminals commit the smallest number of crimes
    they can, in order to further their aims. Drunks, drug addicts and
    insane people are excepted.

    They buy guns like they buy crack, meth, heroin, and fetanyl.
    Off of other criminals.

    **Are you seriously trying to tell us that guns don't begin life as
    legal objects? Seriously?





    So at 50% compliance, Trevor's plan saves 33 lives.
    **Let's say you are correct (and I do not believe for 1 millisecond that
    you are even close to the mark), saving 33 lives is a good thing. Not a
    bad thing. Let me give you an example:

    In 1991, Australia's finest heart surgeon (Victor Chang) was murdered,
    via gunshot, in a bungled kidnapping attempt. How many lives could
    Victor Chang have saved, had he not been shot? The murder of one,
    particularly valuable, member of society can have far reaching
    ramifications.

    So, then , by your "logic", if one worthless criminal guns down another worthless criminal, that's a good thing, because it also saves lives.

    **That's your strawman.


    And that if I good guy with a gun takes down an armed murderer,
    that's a good thng, as he saved lives.

    **Better that the person who wants to murder someone, cannot easily
    obtain a firearm. Like the situation here in Australia.




    Between 1984 and 1990, Chang's unit performed over 197 heart transplants
    and 14 heart-lung transplants. The unit had a high rate of success with
    90% of those receiving transplants from the unit surviving beyond the
    first year.

    How many more people could have been saved by Chang, had he survived?
    His murder shocked and disgusted all Australians.




    Your proposal had about a 0.33% chance of averting Chang's death, had the incident happened in the US.

    **Your strawman. You built it, you burn it down.



    Here are some examples of good guys with a gun have saved lives.

    https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/twelve-stories-about-good-guy-gun-progressives-wont-128052

    **Whoo-hoo. 12 'stories'. Points:

    * That's 12 'stories' in 31 days. In that same time period, EIGHT
    HUNDRED AND THIRTY SEVEN (837) Americans (on average) were murdered via gunshot.

    * I note that in a large number of those cases, assailants were armed
    with firearms. Take away their firearms (like we have in Australia) and
    the bad guys won't have firearms. Fewer people die as a result.



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  • From Trevor Wilson@21:1/5 to Art Sackman on Mon Jul 3 14:30:09 2023
    On 3/07/2023 10:17 am, Art Sackman wrote:
    On Sunday, July 2, 2023 at 6:27:46 PM UTC-4, Trevor Wilson wrote:
    On 3/07/2023 4:04 am, Art Sackman wrote:
    Would save, at most, at maximum 100% compliance, 66 lives per year.
    The more likely outcome would be about half that, 33 lives saved.

    350 million guns already on the streets
    A) about 17 million gun sales each year (5% of total number of guns)
    B) about 13% of those without background checks. (Gun sales without
    checks are .065% of existing guns)

    So..... Eliminating the unchecked sales would reduce our total
    gun inventory by only 0.65% and woud]l reduce our gun deaths by
    a corresponding .065%, or about 666 deaths.

    And that would be only if the program were 100% effective.

    And criminals being criminals, they don't obey our existing laws,
    and they won't be obeying the new ones.

    So at 50% compliance, Trevor's plan saves 33 lives.
    **Read this moron:

    https://www.vox.com/2015/8/27/9212725/australia-buyback
    --

    That would save about 19 lives here.

    **PROVE IT!

    We have 350 million
    660 thousand is a drop in the bucket.
    Less than two tenths of a percent.

    **Moron.


    That would save even fewer lives than your previous proposal.

    You're a fucking moron.

    **Umm no. Go look in the mirror. You'll see the moron.


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  • From Art Sackman@21:1/5 to Trevor Wilson on Mon Jul 3 09:21:20 2023
    On Monday, July 3, 2023 at 12:30:13 AM UTC-4, Trevor Wilson wrote:
    On 3/07/2023 10:17 am, Art Sackman wrote:
    On Sunday, July 2, 2023 at 6:27:46 PM UTC-4, Trevor Wilson wrote:
    On 3/07/2023 4:04 am, Art Sackman wrote:
    Would save, at most, at maximum 100% compliance, 66 lives per year.
    The more likely outcome would be about half that, 33 lives saved.

    350 million guns already on the streets
    A) about 17 million gun sales each year (5% of total number of guns)
    B) about 13% of those without background checks. (Gun sales without
    checks are .065% of existing guns)

    So..... Eliminating the unchecked sales would reduce our total
    gun inventory by only 0.65% and woud]l reduce our gun deaths by
    a corresponding .065%, or about 666 deaths.

    And that would be only if the program were 100% effective.

    And criminals being criminals, they don't obey our existing laws,
    and they won't be obeying the new ones.

    So at 50% compliance, Trevor's plan saves 33 lives.
    **Read this moron:

    https://www.vox.com/2015/8/27/9212725/australia-buyback
    --

    That would save about 19 lives here.
    **PROVE IT!

    I already have.

    if you have alternate evidence on how many lives it would save, provide it Remember the 350 million guns already in private hands., and prove how buying back
    less than two tenths of a percent of them would have a greater effect.

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  • From Trevor Wilson@21:1/5 to Art Sackman on Tue Jul 4 08:24:29 2023
    On 4/07/2023 2:21 am, Art Sackman wrote:
    On Monday, July 3, 2023 at 12:30:13 AM UTC-4, Trevor Wilson wrote:
    On 3/07/2023 10:17 am, Art Sackman wrote:
    On Sunday, July 2, 2023 at 6:27:46 PM UTC-4, Trevor Wilson wrote:
    On 3/07/2023 4:04 am, Art Sackman wrote:
    Would save, at most, at maximum 100% compliance, 66 lives per year.
    The more likely outcome would be about half that, 33 lives saved.

    350 million guns already on the streets
    A) about 17 million gun sales each year (5% of total number of guns) >>>>> B) about 13% of those without background checks. (Gun sales without
    checks are .065% of existing guns)

    So..... Eliminating the unchecked sales would reduce our total
    gun inventory by only 0.65% and woud]l reduce our gun deaths by
    a corresponding .065%, or about 666 deaths.

    And that would be only if the program were 100% effective.

    And criminals being criminals, they don't obey our existing laws,
    and they won't be obeying the new ones.

    So at 50% compliance, Trevor's plan saves 33 lives.
    **Read this moron:

    https://www.vox.com/2015/8/27/9212725/australia-buyback
    --

    That would save about 19 lives here.
    **PROVE IT!

    I already have.

    **No, you have not. You have employed a strawman argument and claimed
    that it is proof.


    if you have alternate evidence on how many lives it would save, provide it Remember the 350 million guns already in private hands., and prove how buying back
    less than two tenths of a percent of them would have a greater effect.

    **I don't need to prove your claim. I merely point you to the PROOF that
    the 1996 gun control laws worked in Australia. Will they work in the US? Probably. What will it cost the US to emulate the Australian approach?
    Possibly as many as 10,000 live Americans each and every year.

    BTW: You seem to be fixated on ONE aspect of the 1996 Australian gun
    control laws. I suggest you examine the entire suite of law changes.



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  • From Art Sackman@21:1/5 to Trevor Wilson on Mon Jul 3 16:51:50 2023
    On Monday, July 3, 2023 at 6:24:33 PM UTC-4, Trevor Wilson wrote:
    On 4/07/2023 2:21 am, Art Sackman wrote:
    On Monday, July 3, 2023 at 12:30:13 AM UTC-4, Trevor Wilson wrote:
    On 3/07/2023 10:17 am, Art Sackman wrote:
    On Sunday, July 2, 2023 at 6:27:46 PM UTC-4, Trevor Wilson wrote:
    On 3/07/2023 4:04 am, Art Sackman wrote:
    Would save, at most, at maximum 100% compliance, 66 lives per year. >>>>> The more likely outcome would be about half that, 33 lives saved. >>>>>
    350 million guns already on the streets
    A) about 17 million gun sales each year (5% of total number of guns) >>>>> B) about 13% of those without background checks. (Gun sales without >>>>> checks are .065% of existing guns)

    So..... Eliminating the unchecked sales would reduce our total
    gun inventory by only 0.65% and woud]l reduce our gun deaths by
    a corresponding .065%, or about 666 deaths.

    And that would be only if the program were 100% effective.

    And criminals being criminals, they don't obey our existing laws, >>>>> and they won't be obeying the new ones.

    So at 50% compliance, Trevor's plan saves 33 lives.
    **Read this moron:

    https://www.vox.com/2015/8/27/9212725/australia-buyback
    --

    That would save about 19 lives here.
    **PROVE IT!

    I already have.
    **No, you have not. You have employed a strawman argument and claimed
    that it is proof.

    if you have alternate evidence on how many lives it would save, provide it Remember the 350 million guns already in private hands., and prove how buying back
    less than two tenths of a percent of them would have a greater effect.
    **I don't need to prove your claim. I merely point you to the PROOF that
    the 1996 gun control laws worked in Australia. Will they work in the US? Probably. What will it cost the US to emulate the Australian approach? Possibly as many as 10,000 live Americans each and every year.

    BTW: You seem to be fixated on ONE aspect of the 1996 Australian gun
    control laws. I suggest you examine the entire suite of law changes.
    --

    Australia bought back about 20% of privately held guns, about 650,000
    Here, that would be 70,000,000 guns, ten times the number of guns!
    At about $200 per gun, that would cost $14 BILLION dollars here.
    Not including the administrative costs of the program.
    The total existing budget of our FBI, the primary Federal Law
    Enforcement agency, is less than that, about $10.3 billion

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Trevor Wilson@21:1/5 to Art Sackman on Tue Jul 4 16:35:29 2023
    On 4/07/2023 9:51 am, Art Sackman wrote:
    On Monday, July 3, 2023 at 6:24:33 PM UTC-4, Trevor Wilson wrote:
    On 4/07/2023 2:21 am, Art Sackman wrote:
    On Monday, July 3, 2023 at 12:30:13 AM UTC-4, Trevor Wilson wrote:
    On 3/07/2023 10:17 am, Art Sackman wrote:
    On Sunday, July 2, 2023 at 6:27:46 PM UTC-4, Trevor Wilson wrote:
    On 3/07/2023 4:04 am, Art Sackman wrote:
    Would save, at most, at maximum 100% compliance, 66 lives per year.
    The more likely outcome would be about half that, 33 lives saved.

    350 million guns already on the streets
    A) about 17 million gun sales each year (5% of total number of
    guns)
    B) about 13% of those without background checks. (Gun sales without
    checks are .065% of existing guns)

    So..... Eliminating the unchecked sales would reduce our total
    gun inventory by only 0.65% and woud]l reduce our gun deaths by
    a corresponding .065%, or about 666 deaths.

    And that would be only if the program were 100% effective.

    And criminals being criminals, they don't obey our existing laws,
    and they won't be obeying the new ones.

    So at 50% compliance, Trevor's plan saves 33 lives.
    **Read this moron:

    https://www.vox.com/2015/8/27/9212725/australia-buyback
    --

    That would save about 19 lives here.
    **PROVE IT!

    I already have.
    **No, you have not. You have employed a strawman argument and claimed
    that it is proof.

    if you have alternate evidence on how many lives it would save,
    provide it
    Remember the 350 million guns already in private hands., and prove
    how buying back
    less than two tenths of a percent of them would have a greater effect.
    **I don't need to prove your claim. I merely point you to the PROOF that
    the 1996 gun control laws worked in Australia. Will they work in the US?
    Probably. What will it cost the US to emulate the Australian approach?
    Possibly as many as 10,000 live Americans each and every year.

    BTW: You seem to be fixated on ONE aspect of the 1996 Australian gun
    control laws. I suggest you examine the entire suite of law changes.
    --

    Australia bought back about 20% of privately held guns, about 650,000
    Here, that would be 70,000,000 guns, ten times the number of guns!
    At about $200 per gun, that would cost $14 BILLION dollars here.
    Not including the administrative costs of the program.
    The total existing budget of our FBI, the primary Federal Law
    Enforcement agency, is less than that, about $10.3 billion

    **And, once more, for the class moron: The gun buyback was ONE PART of
    the suite of gun laws passed by parliament in 1996. ONE PART. You need
    to acquaint yourself with ALL the law changes passed that year.

    10,000 Americans murdered each year, via gunshot, costs the US economy
    around 172 BILLION Dollars. ONE HUNDRED AND SEVENTY TWO DOLLARS! Each
    and every year. Oh, and those figures were established in 2010. It's
    more today. Every year. Year in, year out. Figure on at least double
    that number of people who are seriously wounded, requiring many months
    or years of care.

    It is estimated that each murder costs the US taxpayer around $17.25
    million.

    https://www.johntfloyd.com/the-cost-of-murder-the-price-of-innocence/

    https://www.zdnet.com/article/how-much-does-murder-cost/

    https://slate.com/culture/2010/10/does-every-murder-in-the-united-states-really-cost-society-17-million.html

    So, although you seem unconcerned with the death of your fellow
    Americans, perhaps you may be more concerned about the cost to YOU and
    every other American citizen. The financial cost of horrendous. Way, WAY
    more more than the numbers you just promulgated.

    And, I will say once more: The gun buyback was just one part of the gun
    law changes brought about, by VERY popular support, in 1996. The
    government (Conservative party) and Prime Minister, that enacted those
    changes to gun laws, was returned 3 more times to government. It was a
    seminal moment in Australian history and one that Australians are happy
    and proud of. We don't need your fucking gun culture here. We like to
    live safely and peacefully with our neighbours. You guys just shoot them.

    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Trevor Wilson@21:1/5 to Trevor Wilson on Tue Jul 4 18:38:43 2023
    On 4/07/2023 4:35 pm, Trevor Wilson wrote:
    ONE HUNDRED AND SEVENTY TWO DOLLARS!

    **Oops. Obviously, that should read: ONE HUNDRED AND SEVENTY TWO
    _BILLION_ DOLLARS.




    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Art Sackman@21:1/5 to Trevor Wilson on Tue Jul 4 11:51:14 2023
    On Tuesday, July 4, 2023 at 2:35:33 AM UTC-4, Trevor Wilson wrote:
    On 4/07/2023 9:51 am, Art Sackman wrote:
    On Monday, July 3, 2023 at 6:24:33 PM UTC-4, Trevor Wilson wrote:
    On 4/07/2023 2:21 am, Art Sackman wrote:
    On Monday, July 3, 2023 at 12:30:13 AM UTC-4, Trevor Wilson wrote: >>>> On 3/07/2023 10:17 am, Art Sackman wrote:
    On Sunday, July 2, 2023 at 6:27:46 PM UTC-4, Trevor Wilson wrote: >>>>>> On 3/07/2023 4:04 am, Art Sackman wrote:
    Would save, at most, at maximum 100% compliance, 66 lives per year. >>>>>>> The more likely outcome would be about half that, 33 lives saved. >>>>>>>
    350 million guns already on the streets
    A) about 17 million gun sales each year (5% of total number of
    guns)
    B) about 13% of those without background checks. (Gun sales without >>>>>>> checks are .065% of existing guns)

    So..... Eliminating the unchecked sales would reduce our total >>>>>>> gun inventory by only 0.65% and woud]l reduce our gun deaths by >>>>>>> a corresponding .065%, or about 666 deaths.

    And that would be only if the program were 100% effective.

    And criminals being criminals, they don't obey our existing laws, >>>>>>> and they won't be obeying the new ones.

    So at 50% compliance, Trevor's plan saves 33 lives.
    **Read this moron:

    https://www.vox.com/2015/8/27/9212725/australia-buyback
    --

    That would save about 19 lives here.
    **PROVE IT!

    I already have.
    **No, you have not. You have employed a strawman argument and claimed
    that it is proof.

    if you have alternate evidence on how many lives it would save,
    provide it
    Remember the 350 million guns already in private hands., and prove
    how buying back
    less than two tenths of a percent of them would have a greater effect. >> **I don't need to prove your claim. I merely point you to the PROOF that >> the 1996 gun control laws worked in Australia. Will they work in the US? >> Probably. What will it cost the US to emulate the Australian approach?
    Possibly as many as 10,000 live Americans each and every year.

    BTW: You seem to be fixated on ONE aspect of the 1996 Australian gun
    control laws. I suggest you examine the entire suite of law changes.
    --

    Australia bought back about 20% of privately held guns, about 650,000 Here, that would be 70,000,000 guns, ten times the number of guns!
    At about $200 per gun, that would cost $14 BILLION dollars here.
    Not including the administrative costs of the program.
    The total existing budget of our FBI, the primary Federal Law
    Enforcement agency, is less than that, about $10.3 billion
    **And, once more, for the class moron: The gun buyback was ONE PART of
    the suite of gun laws passed by parliament in 1996. ONE PART. You need
    to acquaint yourself with ALL the law changes passed that year.

    10,000 Americans murdered each year, via gunshot, costs the US economy around 172 BILLION Dollars. ONE HUNDRED AND SEVENTY TWO DOLLARS! Each
    and every year. Oh, and those figures were established in 2010. It's
    more today. Every year. Year in, year out. Figure on at least double
    that number of people who are seriously wounded, requiring many months
    or years of care.

    It is estimated that each murder costs the US taxpayer around $17.25 million.

    https://www.johntfloyd.com/the-cost-of-murder-the-price-of-innocence/

    https://www.zdnet.com/article/how-much-does-murder-cost/

    https://slate.com/culture/2010/10/does-every-murder-in-the-united-states-really-cost-society-17-million.html

    So, although you seem unconcerned with the death of your fellow
    Americans, perhaps you may be more concerned about the cost to YOU and
    every other American citizen. The financial cost of horrendous. Way, WAY more more than the numbers you just promulgated.

    And, I will say once more: The gun buyback was just one part of the gun
    law changes brought about, by VERY popular support, in 1996. The
    government (Conservative party) and Prime Minister, that enacted those changes to gun laws, was returned 3 more times to government. It was a seminal moment in Australian history and one that Australians are happy
    and proud of. We don't need your fucking gun culture here. We like to
    live safely and peacefully with our neighbours. You guys just shoot them.
    --

    I don't know the cost in Australia, but I'm feverishly trying to raise the $17.25 million
    to cover the U.S. cost of yours. So far I'm at the $500 mark.

    BTW, your proposed gun sale legislation will not work
    Nor will your buyback proposal.
    Nor does your previous ludicrous comment that professional criminals
    would not violate gu laws to acquire a gun. Do you actually believe that
    a professional criminal would obey the law by filling out a form
    detailing lots of private information, and, subjecting
    himself to a background check? Really? A criminal would do that?

    Murder is sad, murder has its costs, but the best way to
    abate its frequency is a tough on violent crime policy.
    Your idea of the failure of incarceration is insane.
    Like letting criminals out of jail, and lax prosecution
    of new cases will actually reduce murders? You're flat out bonkers lunatic crazy.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Fascist Flea@21:1/5 to All on Tue Jul 4 12:29:48 2023
    The Rev. Shmoo-Poo-Clueless stumps up to his rickety pulpit.

    Murder is sad, murder has its costs, but the best way to
    abate its frequency is a tough on violent crime policy.

    For the 900th time, keep your inane, faith-based religious views to yourself. As your fellow roadkill scavenger Super Shitty says, bring us "information". This "tough on crime" shit has been discredited for at least 50 years. Since you're apparently too stupid to figure this out for yourself, violent crime is a
    symptom of social ills. It's not an annoying insect you can kill with a splat or a spray.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Art Sackman@21:1/5 to Fascist Flea on Tue Jul 4 21:11:03 2023
    On Tuesday, July 4, 2023 at 3:29:50 PM UTC-4, Fascist Flea wrote:
    The Rev. Shmoo-Poo-Clueless stumps up to his rickety pulpit.

    Murder is sad, murder has its costs, but the best way to
    abate its frequency is a tough on violent crime policy.

    For the 900th time, keep your inane, faith-based religious views to yourself.
    As your fellow roadkill scavenger Super Shitty says, bring us "information". This "tough on crime" shit has been discredited for at least 50 years. Since you're apparently too stupid to figure this out for yourself, violent crime is a
    symptom of social ills. It's not an annoying insect you can kill with a splat or a spray.

    Incarceration also works for annoying insects, such as fleas.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Trevor Wilson@21:1/5 to Art Sackman on Wed Jul 5 14:30:08 2023
    On 5/07/2023 4:51 am, Art Sackman wrote:
    On Tuesday, July 4, 2023 at 2:35:33 AM UTC-4, Trevor Wilson wrote:
    On 4/07/2023 9:51 am, Art Sackman wrote:
    On Monday, July 3, 2023 at 6:24:33 PM UTC-4, Trevor Wilson wrote:
    On 4/07/2023 2:21 am, Art Sackman wrote:
    On Monday, July 3, 2023 at 12:30:13 AM UTC-4, Trevor Wilson wrote: >>>>>> On 3/07/2023 10:17 am, Art Sackman wrote:
    On Sunday, July 2, 2023 at 6:27:46 PM UTC-4, Trevor Wilson wrote: >>>>>>>> On 3/07/2023 4:04 am, Art Sackman wrote:
    Would save, at most, at maximum 100% compliance, 66 lives per year. >>>>>>>>> The more likely outcome would be about half that, 33 lives saved. >>>>>>>>>
    350 million guns already on the streets
    A) about 17 million gun sales each year (5% of total number of
    guns)
    B) about 13% of those without background checks. (Gun sales without >>>>>>>>> checks are .065% of existing guns)

    So..... Eliminating the unchecked sales would reduce our total >>>>>>>>> gun inventory by only 0.65% and woud]l reduce our gun deaths by >>>>>>>>> a corresponding .065%, or about 666 deaths.

    And that would be only if the program were 100% effective.

    And criminals being criminals, they don't obey our existing laws, >>>>>>>>> and they won't be obeying the new ones.

    So at 50% compliance, Trevor's plan saves 33 lives.
    **Read this moron:

    https://www.vox.com/2015/8/27/9212725/australia-buyback
    --

    That would save about 19 lives here.
    **PROVE IT!

    I already have.
    **No, you have not. You have employed a strawman argument and claimed
    that it is proof.

    if you have alternate evidence on how many lives it would save,
    provide it
    Remember the 350 million guns already in private hands., and prove
    how buying back
    less than two tenths of a percent of them would have a greater effect. >>>> **I don't need to prove your claim. I merely point you to the PROOF that >>>> the 1996 gun control laws worked in Australia. Will they work in the US? >>>> Probably. What will it cost the US to emulate the Australian approach? >>>> Possibly as many as 10,000 live Americans each and every year.

    BTW: You seem to be fixated on ONE aspect of the 1996 Australian gun
    control laws. I suggest you examine the entire suite of law changes.
    --

    Australia bought back about 20% of privately held guns, about 650,000
    Here, that would be 70,000,000 guns, ten times the number of guns!
    At about $200 per gun, that would cost $14 BILLION dollars here.
    Not including the administrative costs of the program.
    The total existing budget of our FBI, the primary Federal Law
    Enforcement agency, is less than that, about $10.3 billion
    **And, once more, for the class moron: The gun buyback was ONE PART of
    the suite of gun laws passed by parliament in 1996. ONE PART. You need
    to acquaint yourself with ALL the law changes passed that year.

    10,000 Americans murdered each year, via gunshot, costs the US economy
    around 172 BILLION Dollars. ONE HUNDRED AND SEVENTY TWO DOLLARS! Each
    and every year. Oh, and those figures were established in 2010. It's
    more today. Every year. Year in, year out. Figure on at least double
    that number of people who are seriously wounded, requiring many months
    or years of care.

    It is estimated that each murder costs the US taxpayer around $17.25
    million.

    https://www.johntfloyd.com/the-cost-of-murder-the-price-of-innocence/

    https://www.zdnet.com/article/how-much-does-murder-cost/

    https://slate.com/culture/2010/10/does-every-murder-in-the-united-states-really-cost-society-17-million.html

    So, although you seem unconcerned with the death of your fellow
    Americans, perhaps you may be more concerned about the cost to YOU and
    every other American citizen. The financial cost of horrendous. Way, WAY
    more more than the numbers you just promulgated.

    And, I will say once more: The gun buyback was just one part of the gun
    law changes brought about, by VERY popular support, in 1996. The
    government (Conservative party) and Prime Minister, that enacted those
    changes to gun laws, was returned 3 more times to government. It was a
    seminal moment in Australian history and one that Australians are happy
    and proud of. We don't need your fucking gun culture here. We like to
    live safely and peacefully with our neighbours. You guys just shoot them.
    --

    I don't know the cost in Australia,

    **Sadly, you don't know a damned thing about anything. You really should
    try to appreciate just how stupid you are.

    but I'm feverishly trying to raise the $17.25 million
    to cover the U.S. cost of yours. So far I'm at the $500 mark.

    BTW, your proposed gun sale legislation will not work

    **Prove it! In your proof, examine the results of the Australian gun
    control laws, introduced in 1997.

    Nor will your buyback proposal.

    **So you keep claiming, yet you provide ZERO evidence to support your
    insanity.

    Nor does your previous ludicrous comment that professional criminals
    would not violate gu laws to acquire a gun.

    **Cite where I made any such claim. I won't hold my breath, since you
    will fail to supply any proof to validate your claim.

    Do you actually believe that
    a professional criminal would obey the law by filling out a form
    detailing lots of private information, and, subjecting
    himself to a background check?

    **Of course not. In the US, a violent, drunk, drug addict, or similarly inappropriate person need only ask a friend (or stranger) to buy a gun
    for them.


    Really? A criminal would do that?

    Murder is sad, murder has its costs, but the best way to
    abate its frequency is a tough on violent crime policy.

    **AND remove the ability for such people to acquire firearms.

    Your idea of the failure of incarceration is insane.

    **It's a fact. The US has the largest prison population on the planet,
    yet still has levels of gun homicide unheard of outside of a war situation.

    Like letting criminals out of jail, and lax prosecution
    of new cases will actually reduce murders? You're flat out bonkers lunatic crazy.

    **_IF_ I had made any such claim, yes.


    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Art Sackman@21:1/5 to All on Wed Jul 5 09:15:51 2023

    I don't know the cost in Australia,
    **Sadly, you don't know a damned thing about anything. You really should
    try to appreciate just how stupid you are.
    but I'm feverishly trying to raise the $17.25 million
    to cover the U.S. cost of yours. So far I'm at the $500 mark.

    BTW, your proposed gun sale legislation will not work
    **Prove it! In your proof, examine the results of the Australian gun
    control laws, introduced in 1997.

    Done that

    Nor will your buyback proposal.
    **So you keep claiming, yet you provide ZERO evidence to support your insanity.
    Nor does your previous ludicrous comment that professional criminals
    would not violate gu laws to acquire a gun.

    So you are saying that they would violate the law.
    You idiot. If they would violate such a law, then the law would be useless.


    **Cite where I made any such claim. I won't hold my breath, since you
    will fail to supply any proof to validate your claim.
    Do you actually believe that
    a professional criminal would obey the law by filling out a form
    detailing lots of private information, and, subjecting
    himself to a background check?

    **Of course not. In the US, a violent, drunk, drug addict, or similarly inappropriate person need only ask a friend (or stranger) to buy a gun
    for them.

    Or buy it illegally on the street. A very common occurrence here.


    Really? A criminal would do that?

    Murder is sad, murder has its costs, but the best way to
    abate its frequency is a tough on violent crime policy.
    **AND remove the ability for such people to acquire firearms.
    Your idea of the failure of incarceration is insane.

    **It's a fact. The US has the largest prison population on the planet,
    yet still has levels of gun homicide unheard of outside of a war situation.
    Like letting criminals out of jail, and lax prosecution
    of new cases will actually reduce murders? You're flat out bonkers lunatic crazy.
    **_IF_ I had made any such claim, yes.

    More incarcerations would reduce gun violence.
    Fewer incarcerations would increase it.
    Common sense tells you that.
    and the results of recent downgrading of other felonies proves that deterrence matters,

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Trevor Wilson@21:1/5 to Art Sackman on Thu Jul 6 05:37:59 2023
    On 6/07/2023 2:15 am, Art Sackman wrote:


    I don't know the cost in Australia,
    **Sadly, you don't know a damned thing about anything. You really should
    try to appreciate just how stupid you are.
    but I'm feverishly trying to raise the $17.25 million
    to cover the U.S. cost of yours. So far I'm at the $500 mark.

    BTW, your proposed gun sale legislation will not work
    **Prove it! In your proof, examine the results of the Australian gun
    control laws, introduced in 1997.

    Done that

    **Wrong. Proof requires that you perform an experiment. We did such an experiment here in Australia. The 1996 gun control laws were designed to
    reduce the likelihood of mass murder, committed via the use of firearms.
    They did precisely what they were intended to do. Mass murder, committed
    via the use of firearms went from an average of one per year, in the ten
    years prior to 1997 to ONE in the TWENTY SIX years since.

    THAT is how you provide proof. You do something and measure the results.
    You do nothing and the bodies keep mounting.


    Nor will your buyback proposal.
    **So you keep claiming, yet you provide ZERO evidence to support your
    insanity.
    Nor does your previous ludicrous comment that professional criminals
    would not violate gu laws to acquire a gun.

    So you are saying that they would violate the law.

    **They might, or they might not. In the US, it is VERY easy for a legal
    gun owner to supply firearms to anyone (including violent criminals,
    drunks, drug addicts and mentally unstable people).


    You idiot. If they would violate such a law, then the law would be useless.

    **Not so. The laws in the US make it far too easy for legal guns to end
    up in the illegal market place.



    **Cite where I made any such claim. I won't hold my breath, since you
    will fail to supply any proof to validate your claim.

    **Cite where I made any such claim.


    Do you actually believe that
    a professional criminal would obey the law by filling out a form
    detailing lots of private information, and, subjecting
    himself to a background check?

    **Of course not. In the US, a violent, drunk, drug addict, or similarly
    inappropriate person need only ask a friend (or stranger) to buy a gun
    for them.

    Or buy it illegally on the street. A very common occurrence here.

    **And THAT is precisely the problem. ALL guns begin life as legal
    objects. At some point, they enter the illegal market-place. The
    Australian gun control laws were designed to address that problem. They
    have been very effective at doing precisely that.



    Really? A criminal would do that?

    Murder is sad, murder has its costs, but the best way to
    abate its frequency is a tough on violent crime policy.
    **AND remove the ability for such people to acquire firearms.
    Your idea of the failure of incarceration is insane.

    **It's a fact. The US has the largest prison population on the planet,
    yet still has levels of gun homicide unheard of outside of a war situation. >>> Like letting criminals out of jail, and lax prosecution
    of new cases will actually reduce murders? You're flat out bonkers lunatic crazy.
    **_IF_ I had made any such claim, yes.

    More incarcerations would reduce gun violence.

    **So would preventing legal guns from entering the illegal market-place.

    Fewer incarcerations would increase it.

    **Maybe, maybe not. Locking up wife beaters, violent people and others
    make sense. Locking up drug addicts and those convicted of many other non-violent crimes, does not.

    Common sense tells you that.
    and the results of recent downgrading of other felonies proves that deterrence matters,

    **AND you need to deal with the elephant in the room - the easy
    availability of firearms.



    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Art Sackman@21:1/5 to Trevor Wilson on Wed Jul 5 16:40:28 2023
    On Wednesday, July 5, 2023 at 3:38:04 PM UTC-4, Trevor Wilson wrote:
    On 6/07/2023 2:15 am, Art Sackman wrote:


    I don't know the cost in Australia,
    **Sadly, you don't know a damned thing about anything. You really should >> try to appreciate just how stupid you are.
    but I'm feverishly trying to raise the $17.25 million
    to cover the U.S. cost of yours. So far I'm at the $500 mark.

    BTW, your proposed gun sale legislation will not work
    **Prove it! In your proof, examine the results of the Australian gun
    control laws, introduced in 1997.

    Done that
    **Wrong. Proof requires that you perform an experiment. We did such an experiment here in Australia. The 1996 gun control laws were designed to reduce the likelihood of mass murder, committed via the use of firearms. They did precisely what they were intended to do. Mass murder, committed
    via the use of firearms went from an average of one per year, in the ten years prior to 1997 to ONE in the TWENTY SIX years since.

    THAT is how you provide proof. You do something and measure the results.
    You do nothing and the bodies keep mounting.

    Nor will your buyback proposal.
    **So you keep claiming, yet you provide ZERO evidence to support your
    insanity.
    Nor does your previous ludicrous comment that professional criminals
    would not violate gu laws to acquire a gun.

    So you are saying that they would violate the law.
    **They might, or they might not. In the US, it is VERY easy for a legal
    gun owner to supply firearms to anyone (including violent criminals,
    drunks, drug addicts and mentally unstable people).
    You idiot. If they would violate such a law, then the law would be useless.
    **Not so. The laws in the US make it far too easy for legal guns to end
    up in the illegal market place.


    **Cite where I made any such claim. I won't hold my breath, since you
    will fail to supply any proof to validate your claim.

    **Cite where I made any such claim.


    Do you actually believe that
    a professional criminal would obey the law by filling out a form
    detailing lots of private information, and, subjecting
    himself to a background check?

    **Of course not. In the US, a violent, drunk, drug addict, or similarly >> inappropriate person need only ask a friend (or stranger) to buy a gun
    for them.

    Or buy it illegally on the street. A very common occurrence here.
    **And THAT is precisely the problem. ALL guns begin life as legal
    objects. At some point, they enter the illegal market-place. The
    Australian gun control laws were designed to address that problem. They
    have been very effective at doing precisely that.


    Really? A criminal would do that?

    Murder is sad, murder has its costs, but the best way to
    abate its frequency is a tough on violent crime policy.
    **AND remove the ability for such people to acquire firearms.
    Your idea of the failure of incarceration is insane.

    **It's a fact. The US has the largest prison population on the planet,
    yet still has levels of gun homicide unheard of outside of a war situation.
    Like letting criminals out of jail, and lax prosecution
    of new cases will actually reduce murders? You're flat out bonkers lunatic crazy.
    **_IF_ I had made any such claim, yes.

    More incarcerations would reduce gun violence.
    **So would preventing legal guns from entering the illegal market-place.

    only if on an extremely grand scale There are already 350 million guns
    gun sales are only 17 million per year, and many of them resales


    Fewer incarcerations would increase it.
    **Maybe, maybe not. Locking up wife beaters, violent people and others
    make sense. Locking up drug addicts and those convicted of many other non-violent crimes, does not.

    Those committing property crimes on a habitual basis should be locked up
    Fear of imprisonment has been the rock bottom that saved many a recovering addict.

    Common sense tells you that.
    and the results of recent downgrading of other felonies proves that deterrence matters,

    **AND you need to deal with the elephant in the room - the easy
    availability of firearms.


    Your proposal is a pea shooter, not an elephant gun

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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