• Sound Technology 1700B

    From Trevor Wilson@21:1/5 to All on Mon Jan 3 07:51:23 2022
    Well, it's been a few years. My 1700B has decided to cease operation, so
    it really is time for a repair and full rebuild. Here's what I am planning:

    * Replace all electrolytic caps in the unit. One of the main filter caps
    is dead, so it's time to do the lot.
    * Replace all the carbon composition resistors. A quick check on half a
    dozen has shown a 15 ~ 25% upward drift. Why did ST use CC resistors?
    I've been using cracked carbon since the 1960s.
    * I was going to replace the OP amps with LME49710 OP amps, but, well,
    you know. NLA. AD797s look like the best, available option. Any other suggestions?
    * Replace all the opto couplers.

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  • From Dick Pierce@21:1/5 to Trevor Wilson on Mon Jan 3 11:17:33 2022
    On Sunday, January 2, 2022 at 3:51:27 PM UTC-5, Trevor Wilson wrote:
    Well, it's been a few years. My 1700B has decided to cease operation, so
    it really is time for a repair and full rebuild. Here's what I am planning:

    * Replace all electrolytic caps in the unit. One of the main filter caps
    is dead, so it's time to do the lot.

    Probably not a bad idea.

    * Replace all the carbon composition resistors. A quick check on half a
    dozen has shown a 15 ~ 25% upward drift. Why did ST use CC resistors?
    I've been using cracked carbon since the 1960s.

    Do remember that the ST1700B is a product of the late '60s and
    early '70s to begin with. A LOT of these resistors are used as the frequency-determining elements on the oscillator, so if they drift,
    one result is frequencies are going to be off. If that's the only problem,
    it's not a killer. I don't recall the eaxt topology but it may require replacing two resistors per frequency.

    And this is where you might run into problems. ST talked about how
    components were carefully "hand selected" for optimum operation.
    It may or may not be the case that those resistors that seem to have
    drifte upwards by 15~20% may have been that way the day the
    unit left the factory, so proceed with caution.


    * I was going to replace the OP amps with LME49710 OP amps, but, well,
    you know. NLA. AD797s look like the best, available option. Any other
    suggestions?

    Unless they have measurable gone noisy or otherwise are known to be
    bad, this is probably the LAST thing I would do, simply because the
    amount of feedback around them tends to make differences less relevant.

    * Replace all the opto couplers.

    I'd be VERY careful on this onje. Unless, as above, you can show they are a problem AND if so, you can find suitable replacements (and their specs
    are likely to be very specific, I'd leave them alone. Typically, in things like the ST, they are used as part of the quadrature detectors and bridge balance circuits, so unless they have similar transfer functions, newer, "better" ones may, in fact, just not work.

    Overall, my strategy would be to replace the obvious bad things first, put the unit back together, test it thoroughly and then only proceed if there are still issues.

    Also, note that ST was very specific NOT to use vacuum desolderers (e.g. "Soldapullit") on the unit because of their tendency to spray debris around will-nilly. They recommend using capillary desoldering (solder wick or similar).

    The ST1700B was, for its time, a truly qwonderful, almost miraculously good unit. For about 5 years, I used one every day, measuring probably thousands
    of amplifiers, preamps and so on. I had a lab where I built a very high-quality passive RIAA pre-compensator so I could measure phone preamps with it,
    I also had a switchable 50/75 uS preemphasis filter so I could use it with
    my ST 1000 FM generator and do all sorts of measurements of FM tuners,
    and so on.

    A while ago, I acquired an Audio Sciences 32/44/48/88/96 kS/s 24 bit professional broadcast sound card and got a licensed copy of the ARTA measurement suite from artalabs.hr. It will do everything an ST1700B will
    do, with THD residuals at least as low as the BEST 1700B, and will do
    MUCH more (e.g., IHF IM, multi-tone IM, frequency response, FFT, RTA,
    MLS, ...), and it will do it faster and more reliably. My ONLY complaint
    about it is that it's Windows based, and Windows sucks.

    Since then, I have been offered a couple of ST1700's and a ST1710,
    one for small money, the other two free but for shipping. I turned
    them down.

    They were great units, 50 years ago...

    +-----------------------------------+
    Dick Pierce
    Diverse Pursuits
    Technical Engineering/Development
    cartchunk.org
    Boston - Spruce Head

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  • From Trevor Wilson@21:1/5 to Dick Pierce on Tue Jan 4 07:43:14 2022
    On 4/01/2022 6:17 am, Dick Pierce wrote:
    On Sunday, January 2, 2022 at 3:51:27 PM UTC-5, Trevor Wilson wrote:
    Well, it's been a few years. My 1700B has decided to cease operation, so
    it really is time for a repair and full rebuild. Here's what I am planning: >>
    * Replace all electrolytic caps in the unit. One of the main filter caps
    is dead, so it's time to do the lot.

    Probably not a bad idea.

    ** I had intended doing this 20 years ago, but, you know, life.


    * Replace all the carbon composition resistors. A quick check on half a
    dozen has shown a 15 ~ 25% upward drift. Why did ST use CC resistors?
    I've been using cracked carbon since the 1960s.

    Do remember that the ST1700B is a product of the late '60s and
    early '70s to begin with. A LOT of these resistors are used as the frequency-determining elements on the oscillator, so if they drift,
    one result is frequencies are going to be off. If that's the only problem, it's not a killer. I don't recall the eaxt topology but it may require replacing two resistors per frequency.

    **All the critical resistors are either 1% or 0.25% tolerance
    components. I assume they are metal film and I will not be touching
    them. The less critical resistors are marked 5% tolerance and are carbon
    comp types. Weirdly enough, some are from the E24 range and, of the half
    dozen I tested, all have drifted by more than 15%. Even more weirdly, ST shunted one carbon comp resistor with a second carbon comp resistor in
    the power supply (723 regulator).


    And this is where you might run into problems. ST talked about how
    components were carefully "hand selected" for optimum operation.
    It may or may not be the case that those resistors that seem to have
    drifte upwards by 15~20% may have been that way the day the
    unit left the factory, so proceed with caution.

    **Yeah, no. I don't buy that. As you know, carbon comp resistors are
    notorious for drifting in value. In any case, I can see where close
    tolerance resistors are used and they are clearly not carbon comp types.
    I assume they're metal oxide or metal film ones.



    * I was going to replace the OP amps with LME49710 OP amps, but, well,
    you know. NLA. AD797s look like the best, available option. Any other
    suggestions?

    Unless they have measurable gone noisy or otherwise are known to be
    bad, this is probably the LAST thing I would do, simply because the
    amount of feedback around them tends to make differences less relevant.

    **It will be the last thing I do, simply because I will have to wait for
    the OP amps and the Brown Dog adapters. John Curl reports a 10dB
    improvement in noise, be simply switching to AD797 OP amps.


    * Replace all the opto couplers.

    I'd be VERY careful on this onje. Unless, as above, you can show they are a problem AND if so, you can find suitable replacements (and their specs
    are likely to be very specific, I'd leave them alone. Typically, in things like
    the ST, they are used as part of the quadrature detectors and bridge balance circuits, so unless they have similar transfer functions, newer, "better" ones
    may, in fact, just not work.

    **Yeah, sorry, I was unclear. On of the optos is faulty and must be
    replaced. I figured on replacing the lot as a preventative measure, but
    I feel you are most likely correct. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.


    Overall, my strategy would be to replace the obvious bad things first, put the
    unit back together, test it thoroughly and then only proceed if there are still
    issues.

    **Certainly.


    Also, note that ST was very specific NOT to use vacuum desolderers (e.g. "Soldapullit") on the unit because of their tendency to spray debris around will-nilly. They recommend using capillary desoldering (solder wick or similar).

    **I use a Hakko FR300 desoldering gun. It is an excellent device and has
    never caused an issue with any product I've used it on. It will (and
    already has) performed well with the ST1700B on the parts I have already removed.

    https://hakkousa.com/products/desoldering/fr-300-desoldering-tool.html

    I prefer it to my old Hakkos, which used an outboard vacuum pump.


    The ST1700B was, for its time, a truly qwonderful, almost miraculously good unit. For about 5 years, I used one every day, measuring probably thousands of amplifiers, preamps and so on. I had a lab where I built a very high-quality
    passive RIAA pre-compensator so I could measure phone preamps with it,
    I also had a switchable 50/75 uS preemphasis filter so I could use it with
    my ST 1000 FM generator and do all sorts of measurements of FM tuners,
    and so on.

    **Funnily enough, I acquired an ST1000A and 1100A last year for
    AUD$100.00. I used one daily back in the 1970s. Great instrument.


    A while ago, I acquired an Audio Sciences 32/44/48/88/96 kS/s 24 bit professional broadcast sound card and got a licensed copy of the ARTA measurement suite from artalabs.hr. It will do everything an ST1700B will
    do, with THD residuals at least as low as the BEST 1700B, and will do
    MUCH more (e.g., IHF IM, multi-tone IM, frequency response, FFT, RTA,
    MLS, ...), and it will do it faster and more reliably. My ONLY complaint about it is that it's Windows based, and Windows sucks.

    ** 79 Euro! YIKES Almost an impulse (pun intended) purchase. Looks to be
    very interesting. My LinearX LMS gave up the ghost several years ago and
    I was considering the purchase of Clio Lite, but the ARTA software,
    combined with a decent USB audio box should do the trick very nicely.
    Thanks for the tip. That will be a no-brainer purchase.

    Doesn't alter my view of a standard box type distortion analyser though.

    I did buy a Quantasylum QA400 a few years back, but I managed to damage
    it. I've been cautious about plonking more money into a QA402, but it
    does look pretty decent.


    Since then, I have been offered a couple of ST1700's and a ST1710,
    one for small money, the other two free but for shipping. I turned
    them down.

    They were great units, 50 years ago...

    **Yeah, that's true. They've certainly been bested by more modern,
    computer based products. A mate has one of these though:

    https://www.historyofrecording.com/Shiba_Soku_AD725D.html

    Probably one of the best non-computer based test instruments ever built.

    I want one.


    +-----------------------------------+
    Dick Pierce
    Diverse Pursuits
    Technical Engineering/Development
    cartchunk.org
    Boston - Spruce Head

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  • From Trevor Wilson@21:1/5 to Dick Pierce on Tue Jan 4 07:51:42 2022
    On 4/01/2022 6:17 am, Dick Pierce wrote:


    A while ago, I acquired an Audio Sciences 32/44/48/88/96 kS/s 24 bit professional broadcast sound card

    **I can't seem to access their web site. Are they still in business?

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  • From Dave Platt@21:1/5 to All on Tue Jan 4 11:59:16 2022
    A while ago, I acquired an Audio Sciences 32/44/48/88/96 kS/s 24 bit
    professional broadcast sound card

    **I can't seem to access their web site. Are they still in business?

    http://www.audioscience.com/ works for me, first time!

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  • From Trevor Wilson@21:1/5 to Dave Platt on Wed Jan 5 07:27:22 2022
    On 5/01/2022 6:59 am, Dave Platt wrote:
    A while ago, I acquired an Audio Sciences 32/44/48/88/96 kS/s 24 bit
    professional broadcast sound card

    **I can't seem to access their web site. Are they still in business?

    http://www.audioscience.com/ works for me, first time!

    **Yep. That works. The weird thing is that it didn't work yesterday.

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  • From Trevor Wilson@21:1/5 to Dick Pierce on Sat Jan 15 05:07:58 2022
    On 4/01/2022 6:17 am, Dick Pierce wrote:


    A while ago, I acquired an Audio Sciences 32/44/48/88/96 kS/s 24 bit professional broadcast sound card and got a licensed copy of the ARTA measurement suite from artalabs.hr. It will do everything an ST1700B will
    do, with THD residuals at least as low as the BEST 1700B, and will do
    MUCH more (e.g., IHF IM, multi-tone IM, frequency response, FFT, RTA,
    MLS, ...), and it will do it faster and more reliably. My ONLY complaint about it is that it's Windows based, and Windows sucks.

    **I've listened to you. The ST1700B is still in the works, but I have a
    few other jobs to complete first. Based on your suggestions, I've
    ordered one of these:

    https://au.creative.com/p/sound-blaster/sound-blasterx-g6

    It seems to provide very impressive performance, for not much money (AUD$200.00). Independent tests show that it seems to meet it's
    performance specs quite nicely:

    https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-sound-blasterx-g6.7016/

    As soon as the X-G6 arrives (probably Monday), I'll purchase the Arta
    software. If all goes well, I may graduate to one of these in a couple
    of months:

    https://quantasylum.com/products/qa402-audio-analyzer

    Again, independent reviews look (very) good:

    https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-quantasylum-qa401-audio-analyzer.8694/

    I own a QA400, but it has been damaged and is limited in it's
    capabilities. It has been retired.

    Once more: Thanks for the tips and suggestions.

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