• xkcd: Daylight Saving Choice

    From Lynn McGuire@21:1/5 to All on Wed Oct 25 15:06:15 2023
    XPost: rec.arts.sf.written

    xkcd: Daylight Saving Choice
    https://xkcd.com/2846/

    Yes, I like the compromise of just moving all clocks 39 minutes forward
    year round.

    Explained at:
    https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2846:_Daylight_Saving_Choice

    Lynn

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Your Name@21:1/5 to Lynn McGuire on Thu Oct 26 11:07:53 2023
    XPost: rec.arts.sf.written

    On 2023-10-25 20:06:15 +0000, Lynn McGuire said:

    xkcd: Daylight Saving Choice
    https://xkcd.com/2846/

    There was a place in the news not long ago where they disagreed when
    Daylight Saving should start and end, so many businesses simply chose
    when to change their clocks.

    There are also quite a few places that do not bother silly Daylight
    Saving at all, even some regions / towns within countries that do use
    it. That just makes it even messier and more confusing for people.



    Yes, I like the compromise of just moving all clocks 39 minutes forward
    year round.

    Explained at:
    https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2846:_Daylight_Saving_Choice

    Lynn

    Daylight Saving is and has always been a complete waste of time -
    literally. It is completely useless and pointless and should be
    abandoned worldwide.

    Whichever origin story you want to believe, it turns out is an
    incorrect assumption because it doesn't actually save energy (as
    below), it doesn't help farmers (animals and crops don't wear watches),
    etc.

    Research has also shown that while it might decrease the time
    the lights are on, it could also increase the amount of energy
    we use to heat and cool our homes. Overall, the answers are
    inconclusive and any energy savings caused by Daylight Savings
    Time were found to be insignificant.


    <https://www.euronews.com/green/2023/02/07/will-scrapping-daylight-savings-time-reduce-energy-consumption>

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dimensional Traveler@21:1/5 to Lynn McGuire on Wed Oct 25 15:17:26 2023
    XPost: rec.arts.sf.written

    On 10/25/2023 1:06 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
    xkcd: Daylight Saving Choice
       https://xkcd.com/2846/

    Yes, I like the compromise of just moving all clocks 39 minutes forward
    year round.

    Each year. ;)

    Explained at:
       https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2846:_Daylight_Saving_Choice

    Lynn

    --
    I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
    dirty old man.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ted Nolan @21:1/5 to [email protected] on Wed Oct 25 22:35:15 2023
    XPost: rec.arts.sf.written

    In article <uhc45k$12fst$[email protected]>,
    Dimensional Traveler <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 10/25/2023 1:06 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
    xkcd: Daylight Saving Choice
       https://xkcd.com/2846/

    Yes, I like the compromise of just moving all clocks 39 minutes forward
    year round.

    Each year. ;)

    Explained at:
       https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2846:_Daylight_Saving_Choice



    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4EUTMPuvHo
    --
    columbiaclosings.com
    What's not in Columbia anymore..

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dimensional Traveler@21:1/5 to All on Wed Oct 25 17:52:51 2023
    XPost: rec.arts.sf.written

    On 10/25/2023 3:35 PM, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
    In article <uhc45k$12fst$[email protected]>,
    Dimensional Traveler <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 10/25/2023 1:06 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
    xkcd: Daylight Saving Choice
       https://xkcd.com/2846/

    Yes, I like the compromise of just moving all clocks 39 minutes forward
    year round.

    Each year. ;)

    Explained at:
       https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2846:_Daylight_Saving_Choice



    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4EUTMPuvHo

    Hee hee hee.

    --
    I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
    dirty old man.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Paul S Person@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Thu Oct 26 09:00:37 2023
    XPost: rec.arts.sf.written

    On Wed, 25 Oct 2023 15:06:15 -0500, Lynn McGuire
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    xkcd: Daylight Saving Choice
    https://xkcd.com/2846/

    Yes, I like the compromise of just moving all clocks 39 minutes forward
    year round.

    Explained at:
    https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2846:_Daylight_Saving_Choice

    Every year in the Fall, when we go off DST, we are assaulted by
    articles explaining why that is a Very Bad Idea.

    Every year in the Spring (well, late Winter, actually) we go onto DST,
    we are assaulted by articles explaining why that is a Very Bad Idea.

    In both cases, BTW, auto accidents involving small children trying to
    get to school go up for a few days as the drivers adjust to the
    changed conditions. And, in the Spring, struggle to keep awake.

    One thing is clear: in the USA, our State Legislature could, if it
    wanted keep us off DST year-round (a procedure for doing this legally
    exists) -- but our State Legislature instead passes pointless laws
    attempting to keep us on DST year round (something for which no
    procedure to do this legally exists). That is, they go immediately for
    the ineffective choice that cannot possibly work.

    Myself, I wonder if it is really a /good/ thing to have our Presidential/Congressional political campaigns occurring during DST, a
    time when everyone is desperately pretending that 12 Noon is really 1
    PM and so clearly living in a fantasy world. That we basically choose
    our government while living in an alternate reality might explain a
    few things.
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Paul S Person@21:1/5 to All on Thu Oct 26 09:03:50 2023
    XPost: rec.arts.sf.written

    On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 11:07:53 +1300, Your Name <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    On 2023-10-25 20:06:15 +0000, Lynn McGuire said:

    xkcd: Daylight Saving Choice
    https://xkcd.com/2846/

    There was a place in the news not long ago where they disagreed when >Daylight Saving should start and end, so many businesses simply chose
    when to change their clocks.

    There are also quite a few places that do not bother silly Daylight
    Saving at all, even some regions / towns within countries that do use
    it. That just makes it even messier and more confusing for people.



    Yes, I like the compromise of just moving all clocks 39 minutes forward
    year round.

    Explained at:
    https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2846:_Daylight_Saving_Choice >>
    Lynn

    Daylight Saving is and has always been a complete waste of time -
    literally. It is completely useless and pointless and should be
    abandoned worldwide.

    Whichever origin story you want to believe, it turns out is an
    incorrect assumption because it doesn't actually save energy (as
    below), it doesn't help farmers (animals and crops don't wear watches),
    etc.

    Research has also shown that while it might decrease the time
    the lights are on, it could also increase the amount of energy
    we use to heat and cool our homes. Overall, the answers are
    inconclusive and any energy savings caused by Daylight Savings
    Time were found to be insignificant.


    <https://www.euronews.com/green/2023/02/07/will-scrapping-daylight-savings-time-reduce-energy-consumption>

    That, IIRC, wasn't the point.

    The point was getting workers (and farmers) starting earlier and
    working longer because the Sun was up. Keep in mind, there was a war
    on and production needed to be raised. Considerably. Despite the
    Selective Service grabbing farmers and workers, leaving fewer to do
    the work, and putting them in the Army.
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Scott Lurndal@21:1/5 to Paul S Person on Thu Oct 26 17:01:44 2023
    XPost: rec.arts.sf.written

    Paul S Person <[email protected]d> writes:
    On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 11:07:53 +1300, Your Name <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    On 2023-10-25 20:06:15 +0000, Lynn McGuire said:

    xkcd: Daylight Saving Choice
    https://xkcd.com/2846/

    There was a place in the news not long ago where they disagreed when=20 >>Daylight Saving should start and end, so many businesses simply chose=20 >>when to change their clocks.

    There are also quite a few places that do not bother silly Daylight=20 >>Saving at all, even some regions / towns within countries that do use=20 >>it. That just makes it even messier and more confusing for people.



    Yes, I like the compromise of just moving all clocks 39 minutes = >forward=20
    year round.
    =20
    Explained at:
    = >https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2846:_Daylight_Saving_Choice
    =20
    Lynn

    Daylight Saving is and has always been a complete waste of time -=20 >>literally. It is completely useless and pointless and should be=20 >>abandoned worldwide.

    Whichever origin story you want to believe, it turns out is an=20
    incorrect assumption because it doesn't actually save energy (as=20
    below), it doesn't help farmers (animals and crops don't wear watches),=20 >>etc.

    Research has also shown that while it might decrease the time
    the lights are on, it could also increase the amount of energy
    we use to heat and cool our homes. Overall, the answers are
    inconclusive and any energy savings caused by Daylight Savings
    Time were found to be insignificant.

    =20 >><https://www.euronews.com/green/2023/02/07/will-scrapping-daylight-savin= >gs-time-reduce-energy-consumption>=20

    That, IIRC, wasn't the point.

    The point was getting workers (and farmers) starting earlier and
    working longer because the Sun was up.

    Have you ever _been_ on a farm? Milking starts at 0400 and 1600, regardless of the sun.

    There's still the same number of sunlit hours in the day regardless
    of which hour it starts at.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ted Nolan @21:1/5 to Scott Lurndal on Thu Oct 26 17:28:55 2023
    XPost: rec.arts.sf.written

    In article <YXw_M.115476$[email protected]>,
    Scott Lurndal <[email protected]> wrote:
    Paul S Person <[email protected]d> writes:
    On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 11:07:53 +1300, Your Name <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    On 2023-10-25 20:06:15 +0000, Lynn McGuire said:

    xkcd: Daylight Saving Choice
    https://xkcd.com/2846/

    There was a place in the news not long ago where they disagreed when=20 >>>Daylight Saving should start and end, so many businesses simply chose=20 >>>when to change their clocks.

    There are also quite a few places that do not bother silly Daylight=20 >>>Saving at all, even some regions / towns within countries that do use=20 >>>it. That just makes it even messier and more confusing for people.



    Yes, I like the compromise of just moving all clocks 39 minutes = >>forward=20
    year round.
    =20
    Explained at:
    = >>https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2846:_Daylight_Saving_Choice >>>>=20
    Lynn

    Daylight Saving is and has always been a complete waste of time -=20 >>>literally. It is completely useless and pointless and should be=20 >>>abandoned worldwide.

    Whichever origin story you want to believe, it turns out is an=20 >>>incorrect assumption because it doesn't actually save energy (as=20 >>>below), it doesn't help farmers (animals and crops don't wear watches),=20 >>>etc.

    Research has also shown that while it might decrease the time
    the lights are on, it could also increase the amount of energy
    we use to heat and cool our homes. Overall, the answers are
    inconclusive and any energy savings caused by Daylight Savings
    Time were found to be insignificant.

    =20 >>><https://www.euronews.com/green/2023/02/07/will-scrapping-daylight-savin= >>gs-time-reduce-energy-consumption>=20

    That, IIRC, wasn't the point.

    The point was getting workers (and farmers) starting earlier and
    working longer because the Sun was up.

    Have you ever _been_ on a farm? Milking starts at 0400 and 1600, regardless >of the sun.

    There's still the same number of sunlit hours in the day regardless
    of which hour it starts at.


    As may be--David never made but one crop. The following year his
    acreage was "soil-banked," and he received a fat check for not
    working it, which suited him just fine. Dave loved those hills, he
    had always been homesick for them; he had left them simply to avoid
    work. Now he was being paid not to work in them--which suited him;
    he had never thought that their charms were enhanced by plowing and
    getting them all dusty.

    The "soil bank" payments took care of the mortgage, and his retired
    pay left a tidy sum over, so he hired a man to do those chores a
    farm requires even though it is not being worked for a crop--feed
    the chickens, milk a cow or two, tend a vegetable garden and some
    fruit trees, repair fences--while the hired man's wife helped David's
    wife with the house. For himself, David bought a hammock.

    But David was not a harsh employer. He suspected that cows did not
    want to be waked at five in the morning any more than he did--and
    he undertook to find out.

    He learned that cows would happily change their circadian to more
    reasonable hours, given the chance. They had to be milked twice a
    day; they were bred for that. But nine o'clock in the morning suited
    them for a first milking quite as well as five, as long as it was
    regular.

    But it did not stay that way; Dave's hired man had the nervous habit
    of work. To him there was something sinful in milking a cow that
    late. So David let him have his way, and hired man and cows went
    back to their old habits.

    As for Dave, he strung that hammock between two shade trees and put
    a table by it to hold a frosty drink. He would get up in the morning
    when he woke, whether it was nine or noon, eat breakfast, then walk
    slowly to his hammock to rest up for lunch. The hardest work he did
    was endorsing checks for deposit, and, once a month, balancing his
    wife's checkbook. He quit wearing shoes.
    --
    columbiaclosings.com
    What's not in Columbia anymore..

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Lynn McGuire@21:1/5 to All on Thu Oct 26 14:07:39 2023
    XPost: rec.arts.sf.written

    On 10/26/2023 12:28 PM, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
    In article <YXw_M.115476$[email protected]>,
    Scott Lurndal <[email protected]> wrote:
    Paul S Person <[email protected]d> writes:
    On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 11:07:53 +1300, Your Name <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    On 2023-10-25 20:06:15 +0000, Lynn McGuire said:

    xkcd: Daylight Saving Choice
    https://xkcd.com/2846/

    There was a place in the news not long ago where they disagreed when=20 >>>> Daylight Saving should start and end, so many businesses simply chose=20 >>>> when to change their clocks.

    There are also quite a few places that do not bother silly Daylight=20 >>>> Saving at all, even some regions / towns within countries that do use=20 >>>> it. That just makes it even messier and more confusing for people.



    Yes, I like the compromise of just moving all clocks 39 minutes =
    forward=20
    year round.
    =20
    Explained at:
    =
    https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2846:_Daylight_Saving_Choice >>>>> =20
    Lynn

    Daylight Saving is and has always been a complete waste of time -=20
    literally. It is completely useless and pointless and should be=20
    abandoned worldwide.

    Whichever origin story you want to believe, it turns out is an=20
    incorrect assumption because it doesn't actually save energy (as=20
    below), it doesn't help farmers (animals and crops don't wear watches),=20 >>>> etc.

    Research has also shown that while it might decrease the time
    the lights are on, it could also increase the amount of energy
    we use to heat and cool our homes. Overall, the answers are
    inconclusive and any energy savings caused by Daylight Savings
    Time were found to be insignificant.

    =20
    <https://www.euronews.com/green/2023/02/07/will-scrapping-daylight-savin= >>> gs-time-reduce-energy-consumption>=20

    That, IIRC, wasn't the point.

    The point was getting workers (and farmers) starting earlier and
    working longer because the Sun was up.

    Have you ever _been_ on a farm? Milking starts at 0400 and 1600, regardless
    of the sun.

    There's still the same number of sunlit hours in the day regardless
    of which hour it starts at.


    As may be--David never made but one crop. The following year his
    acreage was "soil-banked," and he received a fat check for not
    working it, which suited him just fine. Dave loved those hills, he
    had always been homesick for them; he had left them simply to avoid
    work. Now he was being paid not to work in them--which suited him;
    he had never thought that their charms were enhanced by plowing and
    getting them all dusty.

    The "soil bank" payments took care of the mortgage, and his retired
    pay left a tidy sum over, so he hired a man to do those chores a
    farm requires even though it is not being worked for a crop--feed
    the chickens, milk a cow or two, tend a vegetable garden and some
    fruit trees, repair fences--while the hired man's wife helped David's
    wife with the house. For himself, David bought a hammock.

    But David was not a harsh employer. He suspected that cows did not
    want to be waked at five in the morning any more than he did--and
    he undertook to find out.

    He learned that cows would happily change their circadian to more
    reasonable hours, given the chance. They had to be milked twice a
    day; they were bred for that. But nine o'clock in the morning suited
    them for a first milking quite as well as five, as long as it was
    regular.

    But it did not stay that way; Dave's hired man had the nervous habit
    of work. To him there was something sinful in milking a cow that
    late. So David let him have his way, and hired man and cows went
    back to their old habits.

    As for Dave, he strung that hammock between two shade trees and put
    a table by it to hold a frosty drink. He would get up in the morning
    when he woke, whether it was nine or noon, eat breakfast, then walk
    slowly to his hammock to rest up for lunch. The hardest work he did
    was endorsing checks for deposit, and, once a month, balancing his
    wife's checkbook. He quit wearing shoes.

    Heinlein ?

    Lynn

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dimensional Traveler@21:1/5 to All on Thu Oct 26 12:30:06 2023
    XPost: rec.arts.sf.written

    On 10/26/2023 10:28 AM, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
    In article <YXw_M.115476$[email protected]>,
    Scott Lurndal <[email protected]> wrote:
    Paul S Person <[email protected]d> writes:
    On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 11:07:53 +1300, Your Name <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    On 2023-10-25 20:06:15 +0000, Lynn McGuire said:

    xkcd: Daylight Saving Choice
    https://xkcd.com/2846/

    There was a place in the news not long ago where they disagreed when=20 >>>> Daylight Saving should start and end, so many businesses simply chose=20 >>>> when to change their clocks.

    There are also quite a few places that do not bother silly Daylight=20 >>>> Saving at all, even some regions / towns within countries that do use=20 >>>> it. That just makes it even messier and more confusing for people.



    Yes, I like the compromise of just moving all clocks 39 minutes =
    forward=20
    year round.
    =20
    Explained at:
    =
    https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2846:_Daylight_Saving_Choice >>>>> =20
    Lynn

    Daylight Saving is and has always been a complete waste of time -=20
    literally. It is completely useless and pointless and should be=20
    abandoned worldwide.

    Whichever origin story you want to believe, it turns out is an=20
    incorrect assumption because it doesn't actually save energy (as=20
    below), it doesn't help farmers (animals and crops don't wear watches),=20 >>>> etc.

    Research has also shown that while it might decrease the time
    the lights are on, it could also increase the amount of energy
    we use to heat and cool our homes. Overall, the answers are
    inconclusive and any energy savings caused by Daylight Savings
    Time were found to be insignificant.

    =20
    <https://www.euronews.com/green/2023/02/07/will-scrapping-daylight-savin= >>> gs-time-reduce-energy-consumption>=20

    That, IIRC, wasn't the point.

    The point was getting workers (and farmers) starting earlier and
    working longer because the Sun was up.

    Have you ever _been_ on a farm? Milking starts at 0400 and 1600, regardless
    of the sun.

    There's still the same number of sunlit hours in the day regardless
    of which hour it starts at.


    As may be--David never made but one crop. The following year his
    acreage was "soil-banked," and he received a fat check for not
    working it, which suited him just fine. Dave loved those hills, he
    had always been homesick for them; he had left them simply to avoid
    work. Now he was being paid not to work in them--which suited him;
    he had never thought that their charms were enhanced by plowing and
    getting them all dusty.

    The "soil bank" payments took care of the mortgage, and his retired
    pay left a tidy sum over, so he hired a man to do those chores a
    farm requires even though it is not being worked for a crop--feed
    the chickens, milk a cow or two, tend a vegetable garden and some
    fruit trees, repair fences--while the hired man's wife helped David's
    wife with the house. For himself, David bought a hammock.

    But David was not a harsh employer. He suspected that cows did not
    want to be waked at five in the morning any more than he did--and
    he undertook to find out.

    He learned that cows would happily change their circadian to more
    reasonable hours, given the chance. They had to be milked twice a
    day; they were bred for that. But nine o'clock in the morning suited
    them for a first milking quite as well as five, as long as it was
    regular.

    But it did not stay that way; Dave's hired man had the nervous habit
    of work. To him there was something sinful in milking a cow that
    late. So David let him have his way, and hired man and cows went
    back to their old habits.

    As for Dave, he strung that hammock between two shade trees and put
    a table by it to hold a frosty drink. He would get up in the morning
    when he woke, whether it was nine or noon, eat breakfast, then walk
    slowly to his hammock to rest up for lunch. The hardest work he did
    was endorsing checks for deposit, and, once a month, balancing his
    wife's checkbook. He quit wearing shoes.

    Now he could just get a self-milking machine that the cows could walk
    into whenever they felt like getting milked. :D

    --
    I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
    dirty old man.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Scott Lurndal@21:1/5 to Lynn McGuire on Thu Oct 26 20:39:35 2023
    XPost: rec.arts.sf.written

    Lynn McGuire <[email protected]> writes:
    On 10/26/2023 12:28 PM, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
    In article <YXw_M.115476$[email protected]>,
    Scott Lurndal <[email protected]> wrote:
    Paul S Person <[email protected]d> writes:
    On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 11:07:53 +1300, Your Name <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    On 2023-10-25 20:06:15 +0000, Lynn McGuire said:

    xkcd: Daylight Saving Choice
    https://xkcd.com/2846/

    There was a place in the news not long ago where they disagreed when=20 >>>>> Daylight Saving should start and end, so many businesses simply chose=20 >>>>> when to change their clocks.

    There are also quite a few places that do not bother silly Daylight=20 >>>>> Saving at all, even some regions / towns within countries that do use=20 >>>>> it. That just makes it even messier and more confusing for people.



    Yes, I like the compromise of just moving all clocks 39 minutes =
    forward=20
    year round.
    =20
    Explained at:
    =
    https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2846:_Daylight_Saving_Choice >>>>>> =20
    Lynn

    Daylight Saving is and has always been a complete waste of time -=20 >>>>> literally. It is completely useless and pointless and should be=20
    abandoned worldwide.

    Whichever origin story you want to believe, it turns out is an=20
    incorrect assumption because it doesn't actually save energy (as=20
    below), it doesn't help farmers (animals and crops don't wear watches),=20
    etc.

    Research has also shown that while it might decrease the time
    the lights are on, it could also increase the amount of energy
    we use to heat and cool our homes. Overall, the answers are
    inconclusive and any energy savings caused by Daylight Savings
    Time were found to be insignificant.

    =20
    <https://www.euronews.com/green/2023/02/07/will-scrapping-daylight-savin= >>>> gs-time-reduce-energy-consumption>=20

    That, IIRC, wasn't the point.

    The point was getting workers (and farmers) starting earlier and
    working longer because the Sun was up.

    Have you ever _been_ on a farm? Milking starts at 0400 and 1600, regardless
    of the sun.

    There's still the same number of sunlit hours in the day regardless
    of which hour it starts at.


    As may be--David never made but one crop. The following year his
    acreage was "soil-banked," and he received a fat check for not
    working it, which suited him just fine. Dave loved those hills, he
    had always been homesick for them; he had left them simply to avoid
    work. Now he was being paid not to work in them--which suited him;
    he had never thought that their charms were enhanced by plowing and
    getting them all dusty.

    The "soil bank" payments took care of the mortgage, and his retired
    pay left a tidy sum over, so he hired a man to do those chores a
    farm requires even though it is not being worked for a crop--feed
    the chickens, milk a cow or two, tend a vegetable garden and some
    fruit trees, repair fences--while the hired man's wife helped David's
    wife with the house. For himself, David bought a hammock.

    But David was not a harsh employer. He suspected that cows did not
    want to be waked at five in the morning any more than he did--and
    he undertook to find out.

    He learned that cows would happily change their circadian to more
    reasonable hours, given the chance. They had to be milked twice a
    day; they were bred for that. But nine o'clock in the morning suited
    them for a first milking quite as well as five, as long as it was
    regular.

    But it did not stay that way; Dave's hired man had the nervous habit
    of work. To him there was something sinful in milking a cow that
    late. So David let him have his way, and hired man and cows went
    back to their old habits.

    As for Dave, he strung that hammock between two shade trees and put
    a table by it to hold a frosty drink. He would get up in the morning
    when he woke, whether it was nine or noon, eat breakfast, then walk
    slowly to his hammock to rest up for lunch. The hardest work he did
    was endorsing checks for deposit, and, once a month, balancing his
    wife's checkbook. He quit wearing shoes.

    Heinlein ?


    The man who was to lazy to fail.

    Part of Time Enough for Love.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Lynn McGuire@21:1/5 to Scott Lurndal on Thu Oct 26 17:43:16 2023
    XPost: rec.arts.sf.written

    On 10/26/2023 3:39 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
    Lynn McGuire <[email protected]> writes:
    On 10/26/2023 12:28 PM, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
    In article <YXw_M.115476$[email protected]>,
    Scott Lurndal <[email protected]> wrote:
    Paul S Person <[email protected]d> writes:
    On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 11:07:53 +1300, Your Name <[email protected]> >>>>> wrote:

    On 2023-10-25 20:06:15 +0000, Lynn McGuire said:

    xkcd: Daylight Saving Choice
    https://xkcd.com/2846/

    There was a place in the news not long ago where they disagreed when=20 >>>>>> Daylight Saving should start and end, so many businesses simply chose=20 >>>>>> when to change their clocks.

    There are also quite a few places that do not bother silly Daylight=20 >>>>>> Saving at all, even some regions / towns within countries that do use=20 >>>>>> it. That just makes it even messier and more confusing for people. >>>>>>


    Yes, I like the compromise of just moving all clocks 39 minutes =
    forward=20
    year round.
    =20
    Explained at:
    =
    https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2846:_Daylight_Saving_Choice >>>>>>> =20
    Lynn

    Daylight Saving is and has always been a complete waste of time -=20 >>>>>> literally. It is completely useless and pointless and should be=20 >>>>>> abandoned worldwide.

    Whichever origin story you want to believe, it turns out is an=20
    incorrect assumption because it doesn't actually save energy (as=20 >>>>>> below), it doesn't help farmers (animals and crops don't wear watches),=20
    etc.

    Research has also shown that while it might decrease the time
    the lights are on, it could also increase the amount of energy >>>>>> we use to heat and cool our homes. Overall, the answers are
    inconclusive and any energy savings caused by Daylight Savings >>>>>> Time were found to be insignificant.

    =20
    <https://www.euronews.com/green/2023/02/07/will-scrapping-daylight-savin=
    gs-time-reduce-energy-consumption>=20

    That, IIRC, wasn't the point.

    The point was getting workers (and farmers) starting earlier and
    working longer because the Sun was up.

    Have you ever _been_ on a farm? Milking starts at 0400 and 1600, regardless
    of the sun.

    There's still the same number of sunlit hours in the day regardless
    of which hour it starts at.


    As may be--David never made but one crop. The following year his
    acreage was "soil-banked," and he received a fat check for not
    working it, which suited him just fine. Dave loved those hills, he
    had always been homesick for them; he had left them simply to avoid >>> work. Now he was being paid not to work in them--which suited him;
    he had never thought that their charms were enhanced by plowing and >>> getting them all dusty.

    The "soil bank" payments took care of the mortgage, and his retired >>> pay left a tidy sum over, so he hired a man to do those chores a
    farm requires even though it is not being worked for a crop--feed
    the chickens, milk a cow or two, tend a vegetable garden and some
    fruit trees, repair fences--while the hired man's wife helped David's >>> wife with the house. For himself, David bought a hammock.

    But David was not a harsh employer. He suspected that cows did not
    want to be waked at five in the morning any more than he did--and
    he undertook to find out.

    He learned that cows would happily change their circadian to more
    reasonable hours, given the chance. They had to be milked twice a
    day; they were bred for that. But nine o'clock in the morning suited >>> them for a first milking quite as well as five, as long as it was
    regular.

    But it did not stay that way; Dave's hired man had the nervous habit >>> of work. To him there was something sinful in milking a cow that
    late. So David let him have his way, and hired man and cows went
    back to their old habits.

    As for Dave, he strung that hammock between two shade trees and put >>> a table by it to hold a frosty drink. He would get up in the morning >>> when he woke, whether it was nine or noon, eat breakfast, then walk >>> slowly to his hammock to rest up for lunch. The hardest work he did >>> was endorsing checks for deposit, and, once a month, balancing his
    wife's checkbook. He quit wearing shoes.

    Heinlein ?


    The man who was to lazy to fail.

    Part of Time Enough for Love.

    Thanks. I thought I recognized the short story. Pretty good for
    something I read back in the 1980s.

    Lynn

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Paul S Person@21:1/5 to All on Fri Oct 27 09:06:15 2023
    XPost: rec.arts.sf.written

    On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 17:01:44 GMT, [email protected] (Scott Lurndal)
    wrote:

    Paul S Person <[email protected]d> writes:
    On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 11:07:53 +1300, Your Name <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    On 2023-10-25 20:06:15 +0000, Lynn McGuire said:

    xkcd: Daylight Saving Choice
    https://xkcd.com/2846/

    There was a place in the news not long ago where they disagreed when=20 >>>Daylight Saving should start and end, so many businesses simply chose=20 >>>when to change their clocks.

    There are also quite a few places that do not bother silly Daylight=20 >>>Saving at all, even some regions / towns within countries that do use=20 >>>it. That just makes it even messier and more confusing for people.



    Yes, I like the compromise of just moving all clocks 39 minutes = >>forward=20
    year round.
    =20
    Explained at:
    = >>https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2846:_Daylight_Saving_Choice >>>>=20
    Lynn

    Daylight Saving is and has always been a complete waste of time -=20 >>>literally. It is completely useless and pointless and should be=20 >>>abandoned worldwide.

    Whichever origin story you want to believe, it turns out is an=20 >>>incorrect assumption because it doesn't actually save energy (as=20 >>>below), it doesn't help farmers (animals and crops don't wear watches),=20 >>>etc.

    Research has also shown that while it might decrease the time
    the lights are on, it could also increase the amount of energy
    we use to heat and cool our homes. Overall, the answers are
    inconclusive and any energy savings caused by Daylight Savings
    Time were found to be insignificant.

    =20 >>><https://www.euronews.com/green/2023/02/07/will-scrapping-daylight-savin= >>gs-time-reduce-energy-consumption>=20

    That, IIRC, wasn't the point.

    The point was getting workers (and farmers) starting earlier and
    working longer because the Sun was up.

    Have you ever _been_ on a farm? Milking starts at 0400 and 1600, regardless >of the sun.

    Milking cows isn't all that happens on a farm.

    There is also the plowin' and the sowin' and the reapin'.

    Which can be done as long as there is light.

    There's still the same number of sunlit hours in the day regardless
    of which hour it starts at.

    Precisely.

    But if people don't normally get up until an hour after the Sun does,
    then DST will get them up when there is one more hour of sunlight
    available to them.

    When we /pretend/ that 4AM is really 5AM, and get up at "5AM", then we
    are /really/ getting up at 4AM which, at the right time and place,
    means we are up for an additional hour of sunlight.

    It isn't the number of hours of sunlight, it's the number of hours
    people are up and working in that sunlight.

    It's easier to require everyone to move their clocks ahead than it is
    to convince everyone to get up an hour earlier.
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Scott Lurndal@21:1/5 to Paul S Person on Fri Oct 27 16:52:14 2023
    XPost: rec.arts.sf.written

    Paul S Person <[email protected]d> writes:
    On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 17:01:44 GMT, [email protected] (Scott Lurndal)
    wrote:

    Paul S Person <[email protected]d> writes:
    On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 11:07:53 +1300, Your Name <[email protected]> >>>wrote:

    On 2023-10-25 20:06:15 +0000, Lynn McGuire said:

    xkcd: Daylight Saving Choice
    https://xkcd.com/2846/

    There was a place in the news not long ago where they disagreed = >when=3D20
    Daylight Saving should start and end, so many businesses simply = >chose=3D20
    when to change their clocks.

    There are also quite a few places that do not bother silly =
    Daylight=3D20
    Saving at all, even some regions / towns within countries that do = >use=3D20
    it. That just makes it even messier and more confusing for people.



    Yes, I like the compromise of just moving all clocks 39 minutes =3D >>>forward=3D20
    year round.
    =3D20
    Explained at:
    =3D >>>https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2846:_Daylight_Saving_Choice >>>>>=3D20
    Lynn

    Daylight Saving is and has always been a complete waste of time -=3D20 >>>>literally. It is completely useless and pointless and should be=3D20 >>>>abandoned worldwide.

    Whichever origin story you want to believe, it turns out is an=3D20 >>>>incorrect assumption because it doesn't actually save energy (as=3D20 >>>>below), it doesn't help farmers (animals and crops don't wear = >watches),=3D20
    etc.

    Research has also shown that while it might decrease the time
    the lights are on, it could also increase the amount of energy
    we use to heat and cool our homes. Overall, the answers are
    inconclusive and any energy savings caused by Daylight Savings
    Time were found to be insignificant.

    =3D20 >>>><https://www.euronews.com/green/2023/02/07/will-scrapping-daylight-sav= >in=3D
    gs-time-reduce-energy-consumption>=3D20

    That, IIRC, wasn't the point.

    The point was getting workers (and farmers) starting earlier and
    working longer because the Sun was up.

    Have you ever _been_ on a farm? Milking starts at 0400 and 1600, = >regardless
    of the sun.

    Milking cows isn't all that happens on a farm.

    There is also the plowin' and the sowin' and the reapin'.

    Which can be done as long as there is light.

    There's still the same number of sunlit hours in the day regardless
    of which hour it starts at.

    Precisely.

    But if people don't normally get up until an hour after the Sun does,

    Strawman argument, to be sure. A farmer will do his fieldwork while
    the sun is up[*], regardless of what the clock says.

    [*] Although farm equipment (e.g. tractors) has had lights for close to a century
    now. Quite a bit of grain is combined during darkness in the grain belt.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Your Name@21:1/5 to Scott Lurndal on Sat Oct 28 11:08:32 2023
    XPost: rec.arts.sf.written

    On 2023-10-27 16:52:14 +0000, Scott Lurndal said:
    Paul S Person <[email protected]d> writes:
    On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 17:01:44 GMT, [email protected] (Scott Lurndal)
    wrote:
    Paul S Person <[email protected]d> writes:
    On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 11:07:53 +1300, Your Name <[email protected]>
    wrote:
    On 2023-10-25 20:06:15 +0000, Lynn McGuire said:

    xkcd: Daylight Saving Choice
    https://xkcd.com/2846/

    There was a place in the news not long ago where they disagreed when >>>>> Daylight Saving should start and end, so many businesses simply chose >>>>> when to change their clocks.

    There are also quite a few places that do not bother silly Daylight
    Saving at all, even some regions / towns within countries that do use >>>>> it. That just makes it even messier and more confusing for people.


    Yes, I like the compromise of just moving all clocks 39 minutes =3D >>>>>> forward year round.

    Explained at:

    https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2846:_Daylight_Saving_Choice >>>>>>
    Lynn

    Daylight Saving is and has always been a complete waste of time -
    literally. It is completely useless and pointless and should be
    abandoned worldwide.

    Whichever origin story you want to believe, it turns out is an
    incorrect assumption because it doesn't actually save energy (as
    below), it doesn't help farmers (animals and crops don't wear watches), >>>>> etc.

    Research has also shown that while it might decrease the time
    the lights are on, it could also increase the amount of energy
    we use to heat and cool our homes. Overall, the answers are
    inconclusive and any energy savings caused by Daylight Savings
    Time were found to be insignificant.

    <https://www.euronews.com/green/2023/02/07/will-scrapping-daylight-savings-time-reduce-energy-consumption>


    That, IIRC, wasn't the point.

    The point was getting workers (and farmers) starting earlier and
    working longer because the Sun was up.

    Have you ever _been_ on a farm? Milking starts at 0400 and 1600,
    regardless of the sun.

    Milking cows isn't all that happens on a farm.

    There is also the plowin' and the sowin' and the reapin'.

    Which can be done as long as there is light.

    There's still the same number of sunlit hours in the day regardless
    of which hour it starts at.

    Precisely.

    But if people don't normally get up until an hour after the Sun does,

    Strawman argument, to be sure. A farmer will do his fieldwork while
    the sun is up[*], regardless of what the clock says.

    [*] Although farm equipment (e.g. tractors) has had lights for close to
    a century now. Quite a bit of grain is combined during darkness in the
    grain belt.

    Yep. Why force everyone to change their clocks when just the farmers
    need to get up earlier?? The whole "Daylight Saving is for the farmers"
    idea is simply nonsense anyway - most farmers hate it just as much as
    everyone else: <https://agamerica.com/blog/myth-vs-fact-daylight-saving-time-farming/>

    The idea was to save energy (specifically coal originally), but it has
    never actually worked in doing that.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ted Nolan @21:1/5 to [email protected] on Fri Oct 27 22:12:12 2023
    XPost: rec.arts.sf.written

    In article <uhhccv$2g2h4$[email protected]>,
    Your Name <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 2023-10-27 16:52:14 +0000, Scott Lurndal said:
    Paul S Person <[email protected]d> writes:
    On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 17:01:44 GMT, [email protected] (Scott Lurndal)
    wrote:
    Paul S Person <[email protected]d> writes:
    On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 11:07:53 +1300, Your Name <[email protected]> >>>>> wrote:
    On 2023-10-25 20:06:15 +0000, Lynn McGuire said:

    xkcd: Daylight Saving Choice
    https://xkcd.com/2846/

    There was a place in the news not long ago where they disagreed when >>>>>> Daylight Saving should start and end, so many businesses simply chose >>>>>> when to change their clocks.

    There are also quite a few places that do not bother silly Daylight >>>>>> Saving at all, even some regions / towns within countries that do use >>>>>> it. That just makes it even messier and more confusing for people. >>>>>>

    Yes, I like the compromise of just moving all clocks 39 minutes =3D >>>>>>> forward year round.

    Explained at:

    https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2846:_Daylight_Saving_Choice >>>>>>>
    Lynn

    Daylight Saving is and has always been a complete waste of time -
    literally. It is completely useless and pointless and should be
    abandoned worldwide.

    Whichever origin story you want to believe, it turns out is an
    incorrect assumption because it doesn't actually save energy (as
    below), it doesn't help farmers (animals and crops don't wear watches), >>>>>> etc.

    Research has also shown that while it might decrease the time
    the lights are on, it could also increase the amount of energy
    we use to heat and cool our homes. Overall, the answers are
    inconclusive and any energy savings caused by Daylight Savings
    Time were found to be insignificant.

    <https://www.euronews.com/green/2023/02/07/will-scrapping-daylight-savings-time-reduce-energy-consumption>


    That, IIRC, wasn't the point.

    The point was getting workers (and farmers) starting earlier and
    working longer because the Sun was up.

    Have you ever _been_ on a farm? Milking starts at 0400 and 1600,
    regardless of the sun.

    Milking cows isn't all that happens on a farm.

    There is also the plowin' and the sowin' and the reapin'.

    Which can be done as long as there is light.

    There's still the same number of sunlit hours in the day regardless
    of which hour it starts at.

    Precisely.

    But if people don't normally get up until an hour after the Sun does,

    Strawman argument, to be sure. A farmer will do his fieldwork while
    the sun is up[*], regardless of what the clock says.

    [*] Although farm equipment (e.g. tractors) has had lights for close to
    a century now. Quite a bit of grain is combined during darkness in the
    grain belt.

    Yep. Why force everyone to change their clocks when just the farmers
    need to get up earlier?? The whole "Daylight Saving is for the farmers"
    idea is simply nonsense anyway - most farmers hate it just as much as >everyone else: ><https://agamerica.com/blog/myth-vs-fact-daylight-saving-time-farming/>

    The idea was to save energy (specifically coal originally), but it has
    never actually worked in doing that.



    My farming Aunt despised DST and referred to Standard Time as "God's Time".

    The curious thing is that it is somehow more acceptable for the government
    to change the clocks than to ask people to come to work an hour earlier.
    --
    columbiaclosings.com
    What's not in Columbia anymore..

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Paul S Person@21:1/5 to tednolan on Sat Oct 28 08:53:47 2023
    XPost: rec.arts.sf.written

    On 27 Oct 2023 22:12:12 GMT, [email protected] (Ted Nolan
    <tednolan>) wrote:

    In article <uhhccv$2g2h4$[email protected]>,
    Your Name <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 2023-10-27 16:52:14 +0000, Scott Lurndal said:
    Paul S Person <[email protected]d> writes:
    On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 17:01:44 GMT, [email protected] (Scott Lurndal)
    wrote:
    Paul S Person <[email protected]d> writes:
    On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 11:07:53 +1300, Your Name <[email protected]> >>>>>> wrote:
    On 2023-10-25 20:06:15 +0000, Lynn McGuire said:

    xkcd: Daylight Saving Choice
    https://xkcd.com/2846/

    There was a place in the news not long ago where they disagreed when >>>>>>> Daylight Saving should start and end, so many businesses simply chose >>>>>>> when to change their clocks.

    There are also quite a few places that do not bother silly Daylight >>>>>>> Saving at all, even some regions / towns within countries that do use >>>>>>> it. That just makes it even messier and more confusing for people. >>>>>>>

    Yes, I like the compromise of just moving all clocks 39 minutes =3D >>>>>>>> forward year round.

    Explained at:

    https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2846:_Daylight_Saving_Choice

    Lynn

    Daylight Saving is and has always been a complete waste of time - >>>>>>> literally. It is completely useless and pointless and should be
    abandoned worldwide.

    Whichever origin story you want to believe, it turns out is an
    incorrect assumption because it doesn't actually save energy (as >>>>>>> below), it doesn't help farmers (animals and crops don't wear watches), >>>>>>> etc.

    Research has also shown that while it might decrease the time
    the lights are on, it could also increase the amount of energy
    we use to heat and cool our homes. Overall, the answers are
    inconclusive and any energy savings caused by Daylight Savings
    Time were found to be insignificant.

    <https://www.euronews.com/green/2023/02/07/will-scrapping-daylight-savings-time-reduce-energy-consumption>


    That, IIRC, wasn't the point.

    The point was getting workers (and farmers) starting earlier and
    working longer because the Sun was up.

    Have you ever _been_ on a farm? Milking starts at 0400 and 1600,
    regardless of the sun.

    Milking cows isn't all that happens on a farm.

    There is also the plowin' and the sowin' and the reapin'.

    Which can be done as long as there is light.

    There's still the same number of sunlit hours in the day regardless
    of which hour it starts at.

    Precisely.

    But if people don't normally get up until an hour after the Sun does,

    Strawman argument, to be sure. A farmer will do his fieldwork while
    the sun is up[*], regardless of what the clock says.

    [*] Although farm equipment (e.g. tractors) has had lights for close to >>> a century now. Quite a bit of grain is combined during darkness in the >>> grain belt.

    Yep. Why force everyone to change their clocks when just the farmers
    need to get up earlier?? The whole "Daylight Saving is for the farmers" >>idea is simply nonsense anyway - most farmers hate it just as much as >>everyone else: >><https://agamerica.com/blog/myth-vs-fact-daylight-saving-time-farming/>

    The idea was to save energy (specifically coal originally), but it has >>never actually worked in doing that.



    My farming Aunt despised DST and referred to Standard Time as "God's Time".

    I don't doubt it.

    I don't much like it myself.

    The curious thing is that it is somehow more acceptable for the government
    to change the clocks than to ask people to come to work an hour earlier.

    It's /easier/.

    You change the clocks at the factory/store/Army base/whatever and
    people experience consequences if they show up an hour late because
    they couldn't be bothered to "Spring forward" (which should, of
    course, now be "Late Winter forward", although "Fall Back" still
    works).
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Paul S Person@21:1/5 to All on Sat Oct 28 08:49:56 2023
    XPost: rec.arts.sf.written

    On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 11:08:32 +1300, Your Name <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    On 2023-10-27 16:52:14 +0000, Scott Lurndal said:
    Paul S Person <[email protected]d> writes:
    On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 17:01:44 GMT, [email protected] (Scott Lurndal)
    wrote:
    Paul S Person <[email protected]d> writes:
    On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 11:07:53 +1300, Your Name <[email protected]> >>>>> wrote:
    On 2023-10-25 20:06:15 +0000, Lynn McGuire said:

    xkcd: Daylight Saving Choice
    https://xkcd.com/2846/

    There was a place in the news not long ago where they disagreed when >>>>>> Daylight Saving should start and end, so many businesses simply chose >>>>>> when to change their clocks.

    There are also quite a few places that do not bother silly Daylight >>>>>> Saving at all, even some regions / towns within countries that do use >>>>>> it. That just makes it even messier and more confusing for people. >>>>>>

    Yes, I like the compromise of just moving all clocks 39 minutes =3D >>>>>>> forward year round.

    Explained at:

    https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2846:_Daylight_Saving_Choice >>>>>>>
    Lynn

    Daylight Saving is and has always been a complete waste of time -
    literally. It is completely useless and pointless and should be
    abandoned worldwide.

    Whichever origin story you want to believe, it turns out is an
    incorrect assumption because it doesn't actually save energy (as
    below), it doesn't help farmers (animals and crops don't wear watches), >>>>>> etc.

    Research has also shown that while it might decrease the time
    the lights are on, it could also increase the amount of energy
    we use to heat and cool our homes. Overall, the answers are
    inconclusive and any energy savings caused by Daylight Savings
    Time were found to be insignificant.

    <https://www.euronews.com/green/2023/02/07/will-scrapping-daylight-savings-time-reduce-energy-consumption>


    That, IIRC, wasn't the point.

    The point was getting workers (and farmers) starting earlier and
    working longer because the Sun was up.

    Have you ever _been_ on a farm? Milking starts at 0400 and 1600,
    regardless of the sun.

    Milking cows isn't all that happens on a farm.

    There is also the plowin' and the sowin' and the reapin'.

    Which can be done as long as there is light.

    There's still the same number of sunlit hours in the day regardless
    of which hour it starts at.

    Precisely.

    But if people don't normally get up until an hour after the Sun does,

    Strawman argument, to be sure. A farmer will do his fieldwork while
    the sun is up[*], regardless of what the clock says.

    [*] Although farm equipment (e.g. tractors) has had lights for close to
    a century now. Quite a bit of grain is combined during darkness in the
    grain belt.

    Yep. Why force everyone to change their clocks when just the farmers
    need to get up earlier?? The whole "Daylight Saving is for the farmers"
    idea is simply nonsense anyway - most farmers hate it just as much as >everyone else: ><https://agamerica.com/blog/myth-vs-fact-daylight-saving-time-farming/>

    I never said it was for farmers only; during WWII, factories needed to
    work more hours also.

    And applying today's standards and practices to the time DST (and
    DDST) originated is inappropriate. It was the situation /then/ that
    prompted its adoption.

    The idea was to save energy (specifically coal originally), but it has
    never actually worked in doing that.

    If you say so. I have my urban legend, you are free to have yours.
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dimensional Traveler@21:1/5 to Paul S Person on Sat Oct 28 09:51:51 2023
    XPost: rec.arts.sf.written

    On 10/28/2023 8:49 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
    On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 11:08:32 +1300, Your Name <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    On 2023-10-27 16:52:14 +0000, Scott Lurndal said:
    Paul S Person <[email protected]d> writes:
    On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 17:01:44 GMT, [email protected] (Scott Lurndal)
    wrote:
    Paul S Person <[email protected]d> writes:
    On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 11:07:53 +1300, Your Name <[email protected]> >>>>>> wrote:
    On 2023-10-25 20:06:15 +0000, Lynn McGuire said:

    xkcd: Daylight Saving Choice
    https://xkcd.com/2846/

    There was a place in the news not long ago where they disagreed when >>>>>>> Daylight Saving should start and end, so many businesses simply chose >>>>>>> when to change their clocks.

    There are also quite a few places that do not bother silly Daylight >>>>>>> Saving at all, even some regions / towns within countries that do use >>>>>>> it. That just makes it even messier and more confusing for people. >>>>>>>

    Yes, I like the compromise of just moving all clocks 39 minutes =3D >>>>>>>> forward year round.

    Explained at:

    https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2846:_Daylight_Saving_Choice

    Lynn

    Daylight Saving is and has always been a complete waste of time - >>>>>>> literally. It is completely useless and pointless and should be
    abandoned worldwide.

    Whichever origin story you want to believe, it turns out is an
    incorrect assumption because it doesn't actually save energy (as >>>>>>> below), it doesn't help farmers (animals and crops don't wear watches), >>>>>>> etc.

    Research has also shown that while it might decrease the time
    the lights are on, it could also increase the amount of energy
    we use to heat and cool our homes. Overall, the answers are
    inconclusive and any energy savings caused by Daylight Savings
    Time were found to be insignificant.

    <https://www.euronews.com/green/2023/02/07/will-scrapping-daylight-savings-time-reduce-energy-consumption>


    That, IIRC, wasn't the point.

    The point was getting workers (and farmers) starting earlier and
    working longer because the Sun was up.

    Have you ever _been_ on a farm? Milking starts at 0400 and 1600,
    regardless of the sun.

    Milking cows isn't all that happens on a farm.

    There is also the plowin' and the sowin' and the reapin'.

    Which can be done as long as there is light.

    There's still the same number of sunlit hours in the day regardless
    of which hour it starts at.

    Precisely.

    But if people don't normally get up until an hour after the Sun does,

    Strawman argument, to be sure. A farmer will do his fieldwork while
    the sun is up[*], regardless of what the clock says.

    [*] Although farm equipment (e.g. tractors) has had lights for close to
    a century now. Quite a bit of grain is combined during darkness in the
    grain belt.

    Yep. Why force everyone to change their clocks when just the farmers
    need to get up earlier?? The whole "Daylight Saving is for the farmers"
    idea is simply nonsense anyway - most farmers hate it just as much as
    everyone else:
    <https://agamerica.com/blog/myth-vs-fact-daylight-saving-time-farming/>

    I never said it was for farmers only; during WWII, factories needed to
    work more hours also.

    And applying today's standards and practices to the time DST (and
    DDST) originated is inappropriate. It was the situation /then/ that
    prompted its adoption.

    And said situation ended ~70 years ago so why the bleep are we still
    doing it?

    --
    I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
    dirty old man.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Scott Dorsey@21:1/5 to All on Sat Oct 28 16:58:34 2023
    XPost: rec.arts.sf.written

    Ted Nolan <tednolan> <tednolan> wrote:
    Dimensional Traveler <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 10/25/2023 1:06 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
    xkcd: Daylight Saving Choice
       https://xkcd.com/2846/

    Yes, I like the compromise of just moving all clocks 39 minutes forward
    year round.

    Explained at:
       https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2846:_Daylight_Saving_Choice

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4EUTMPuvHo

    I think a much better explanation can be found here:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GjkPAMSJdE

    --scott
    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Paul S Person@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Sun Oct 29 09:08:10 2023
    XPost: rec.arts.sf.written

    On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 09:51:51 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 10/28/2023 8:49 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
    On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 11:08:32 +1300, Your Name <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    On 2023-10-27 16:52:14 +0000, Scott Lurndal said:
    Paul S Person <[email protected]d> writes:
    On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 17:01:44 GMT, [email protected] (Scott Lurndal) >>>>> wrote:
    Paul S Person <[email protected]d> writes:
    On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 11:07:53 +1300, Your Name <[email protected]> >>>>>>> wrote:
    On 2023-10-25 20:06:15 +0000, Lynn McGuire said:

    xkcd: Daylight Saving Choice
    https://xkcd.com/2846/

    There was a place in the news not long ago where they disagreed when >>>>>>>> Daylight Saving should start and end, so many businesses simply chose >>>>>>>> when to change their clocks.

    There are also quite a few places that do not bother silly Daylight >>>>>>>> Saving at all, even some regions / towns within countries that do use >>>>>>>> it. That just makes it even messier and more confusing for people. >>>>>>>>

    Yes, I like the compromise of just moving all clocks 39 minutes =3D >>>>>>>>> forward year round.

    Explained at:

    https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2846:_Daylight_Saving_Choice

    Lynn

    Daylight Saving is and has always been a complete waste of time - >>>>>>>> literally. It is completely useless and pointless and should be >>>>>>>> abandoned worldwide.

    Whichever origin story you want to believe, it turns out is an >>>>>>>> incorrect assumption because it doesn't actually save energy (as >>>>>>>> below), it doesn't help farmers (animals and crops don't wear watches),
    etc.

    Research has also shown that while it might decrease the time
    the lights are on, it could also increase the amount of energy >>>>>>>> we use to heat and cool our homes. Overall, the answers are
    inconclusive and any energy savings caused by Daylight Savings >>>>>>>> Time were found to be insignificant.

    <https://www.euronews.com/green/2023/02/07/will-scrapping-daylight-savings-time-reduce-energy-consumption>


    That, IIRC, wasn't the point.

    The point was getting workers (and farmers) starting earlier and >>>>>>> working longer because the Sun was up.

    Have you ever _been_ on a farm? Milking starts at 0400 and 1600, >>>>>> regardless of the sun.

    Milking cows isn't all that happens on a farm.

    There is also the plowin' and the sowin' and the reapin'.

    Which can be done as long as there is light.

    There's still the same number of sunlit hours in the day regardless >>>>>> of which hour it starts at.

    Precisely.

    But if people don't normally get up until an hour after the Sun does, >>>>
    Strawman argument, to be sure. A farmer will do his fieldwork while
    the sun is up[*], regardless of what the clock says.

    [*] Although farm equipment (e.g. tractors) has had lights for close to >>>> a century now. Quite a bit of grain is combined during darkness in the >>>> grain belt.

    Yep. Why force everyone to change their clocks when just the farmers
    need to get up earlier?? The whole "Daylight Saving is for the farmers"
    idea is simply nonsense anyway - most farmers hate it just as much as
    everyone else:
    <https://agamerica.com/blog/myth-vs-fact-daylight-saving-time-farming/>

    I never said it was for farmers only; during WWII, factories needed to
    work more hours also.

    And applying today's standards and practices to the time DST (and
    DDST) originated is inappropriate. It was the situation /then/ that
    prompted its adoption.

    And said situation ended ~70 years ago so why the bleep are we still
    doing it?

    As Tevye would sing: Traa-diiiii-tion!
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dimensional Traveler@21:1/5 to Paul S Person on Sun Oct 29 14:46:12 2023
    XPost: rec.arts.sf.written

    On 10/29/2023 9:08 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
    On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 09:51:51 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 10/28/2023 8:49 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
    On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 11:08:32 +1300, Your Name <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    On 2023-10-27 16:52:14 +0000, Scott Lurndal said:
    Paul S Person <[email protected]d> writes:
    On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 17:01:44 GMT, [email protected] (Scott Lurndal) >>>>>> wrote:
    Paul S Person <[email protected]d> writes:
    On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 11:07:53 +1300, Your Name <[email protected]> >>>>>>>> wrote:
    On 2023-10-25 20:06:15 +0000, Lynn McGuire said:

    xkcd: Daylight Saving Choice
    https://xkcd.com/2846/

    There was a place in the news not long ago where they disagreed when >>>>>>>>> Daylight Saving should start and end, so many businesses simply chose >>>>>>>>> when to change their clocks.

    There are also quite a few places that do not bother silly Daylight >>>>>>>>> Saving at all, even some regions / towns within countries that do use >>>>>>>>> it. That just makes it even messier and more confusing for people. >>>>>>>>>

    Yes, I like the compromise of just moving all clocks 39 minutes =3D >>>>>>>>>> forward year round.

    Explained at:

    https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2846:_Daylight_Saving_Choice

    Lynn

    Daylight Saving is and has always been a complete waste of time - >>>>>>>>> literally. It is completely useless and pointless and should be >>>>>>>>> abandoned worldwide.

    Whichever origin story you want to believe, it turns out is an >>>>>>>>> incorrect assumption because it doesn't actually save energy (as >>>>>>>>> below), it doesn't help farmers (animals and crops don't wear watches),
    etc.

    Research has also shown that while it might decrease the time >>>>>>>>> the lights are on, it could also increase the amount of energy >>>>>>>>> we use to heat and cool our homes. Overall, the answers are
    inconclusive and any energy savings caused by Daylight Savings >>>>>>>>> Time were found to be insignificant.

    <https://www.euronews.com/green/2023/02/07/will-scrapping-daylight-savings-time-reduce-energy-consumption>


    That, IIRC, wasn't the point.

    The point was getting workers (and farmers) starting earlier and >>>>>>>> working longer because the Sun was up.

    Have you ever _been_ on a farm? Milking starts at 0400 and 1600, >>>>>>> regardless of the sun.

    Milking cows isn't all that happens on a farm.

    There is also the plowin' and the sowin' and the reapin'.

    Which can be done as long as there is light.

    There's still the same number of sunlit hours in the day regardless >>>>>>> of which hour it starts at.

    Precisely.

    But if people don't normally get up until an hour after the Sun does, >>>>>
    Strawman argument, to be sure. A farmer will do his fieldwork while >>>>> the sun is up[*], regardless of what the clock says.

    [*] Although farm equipment (e.g. tractors) has had lights for close to >>>>> a century now. Quite a bit of grain is combined during darkness in the >>>>> grain belt.

    Yep. Why force everyone to change their clocks when just the farmers
    need to get up earlier?? The whole "Daylight Saving is for the farmers" >>>> idea is simply nonsense anyway - most farmers hate it just as much as
    everyone else:
    <https://agamerica.com/blog/myth-vs-fact-daylight-saving-time-farming/> >>>
    I never said it was for farmers only; during WWII, factories needed to
    work more hours also.

    And applying today's standards and practices to the time DST (and
    DDST) originated is inappropriate. It was the situation /then/ that
    prompted its adoption.

    And said situation ended ~70 years ago so why the bleep are we still
    doing it?

    As Tevye would sing: Traa-diiiii-tion!

    Traditions should be liked and fun or potentially useful, not disliked
    and kept around because our great-grandparents did it that way.

    --
    I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
    dirty old man.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Default User@21:1/5 to Paul S Person on Mon Oct 30 04:59:56 2023
    XPost: rec.arts.sf.written

    Paul S Person wrote:

    On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 09:51:51 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 10/28/2023 8:49 AM, Paul S Person wrote:

    And said situation ended ~70 years ago so why the bleep are we
    still doing it?

    As Tevye would sing: Traa-diiiii-tion!

    Any state can opt out of DST, and some do. What people usually think
    they want is that year-round. At one point the country did that, but
    quickly (for Congress) reversed it.


    Brian

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Paul S Person@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Mon Oct 30 09:05:58 2023
    XPost: rec.arts.sf.written

    On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 14:46:12 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 10/29/2023 9:08 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
    On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 09:51:51 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 10/28/2023 8:49 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
    On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 11:08:32 +1300, Your Name <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    On 2023-10-27 16:52:14 +0000, Scott Lurndal said:
    Paul S Person <[email protected]d> writes:
    On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 17:01:44 GMT, [email protected] (Scott Lurndal) >>>>>>> wrote:
    Paul S Person <[email protected]d> writes:
    On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 11:07:53 +1300, Your Name <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>> wrote:
    On 2023-10-25 20:06:15 +0000, Lynn McGuire said:

    xkcd: Daylight Saving Choice
    https://xkcd.com/2846/

    There was a place in the news not long ago where they disagreed when >>>>>>>>>> Daylight Saving should start and end, so many businesses simply chose
    when to change their clocks.

    There are also quite a few places that do not bother silly Daylight >>>>>>>>>> Saving at all, even some regions / towns within countries that do use
    it. That just makes it even messier and more confusing for people. >>>>>>>>>>

    Yes, I like the compromise of just moving all clocks 39 minutes =3D >>>>>>>>>>> forward year round.

    Explained at:

    https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2846:_Daylight_Saving_Choice

    Lynn

    Daylight Saving is and has always been a complete waste of time - >>>>>>>>>> literally. It is completely useless and pointless and should be >>>>>>>>>> abandoned worldwide.

    Whichever origin story you want to believe, it turns out is an >>>>>>>>>> incorrect assumption because it doesn't actually save energy (as >>>>>>>>>> below), it doesn't help farmers (animals and crops don't wear watches),
    etc.

    Research has also shown that while it might decrease the time >>>>>>>>>> the lights are on, it could also increase the amount of energy >>>>>>>>>> we use to heat and cool our homes. Overall, the answers are >>>>>>>>>> inconclusive and any energy savings caused by Daylight Savings >>>>>>>>>> Time were found to be insignificant.

    <https://www.euronews.com/green/2023/02/07/will-scrapping-daylight-savings-time-reduce-energy-consumption>


    That, IIRC, wasn't the point.

    The point was getting workers (and farmers) starting earlier and >>>>>>>>> working longer because the Sun was up.

    Have you ever _been_ on a farm? Milking starts at 0400 and 1600, >>>>>>>> regardless of the sun.

    Milking cows isn't all that happens on a farm.

    There is also the plowin' and the sowin' and the reapin'.

    Which can be done as long as there is light.

    There's still the same number of sunlit hours in the day regardless >>>>>>>> of which hour it starts at.

    Precisely.

    But if people don't normally get up until an hour after the Sun does, >>>>>>
    Strawman argument, to be sure. A farmer will do his fieldwork while >>>>>> the sun is up[*], regardless of what the clock says.

    [*] Although farm equipment (e.g. tractors) has had lights for close to >>>>>> a century now. Quite a bit of grain is combined during darkness in the >>>>>> grain belt.

    Yep. Why force everyone to change their clocks when just the farmers >>>>> need to get up earlier?? The whole "Daylight Saving is for the farmers" >>>>> idea is simply nonsense anyway - most farmers hate it just as much as >>>>> everyone else:
    <https://agamerica.com/blog/myth-vs-fact-daylight-saving-time-farming/> >>>>
    I never said it was for farmers only; during WWII, factories needed to >>>> work more hours also.

    And applying today's standards and practices to the time DST (and
    DDST) originated is inappropriate. It was the situation /then/ that
    prompted its adoption.

    And said situation ended ~70 years ago so why the bleep are we still
    doing it?

    As Tevye would sing: Traa-diiiii-tion!

    Traditions should be liked and fun or potentially useful, not disliked
    and kept around because our great-grandparents did it that way.

    If everybody /wanted/ to do it, it wouldn't have to be a tradition.

    Our great-grandparents may have lit their Christmas trees with
    candles. If not, /their/ great-grandparents surely did. That's a
    tradition that died out. With, no doubt, a lot of whining and
    accusations of cowardice ("who's afraid of a house fire now and
    then?").

    I myself have witnessed the extinction (in me) of a tradition of my
    maternal grandfather's: that each and every piece of tinsel must be
    placed on the tree individually. As opposed to being tossed on in
    globs.

    It took hours, but then, he wasn't the one doing it.
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Paul S Person@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Mon Oct 30 09:00:58 2023
    XPost: rec.arts.sf.written

    On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 04:59:56 -0000 (UTC), "Default User" <[email protected]> wrote:

    Paul S Person wrote:

    On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 09:51:51 -0700, Dimensional Traveler >><[email protected]> wrote:

    On 10/28/2023 8:49 AM, Paul S Person wrote:

    And said situation ended ~70 years ago so why the bleep are we
    still doing it?

    As Tevye would sing: Traa-diiiii-tion!

    Any state can opt out of DST, and some do. What people usually think
    they want is that year-round. At one point the country did that, but
    quickly (for Congress) reversed it.

    As I noted otherpost, our State keeps trying to make DST year-round,
    which is very difficult (not /quite/ as hard as a Constitiutional
    Amendment, but still quite hard) when they /could/ keep us in PST all
    year round any time they woke up and started paying attention.
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dimensional Traveler@21:1/5 to Paul S Person on Mon Oct 30 12:08:33 2023
    XPost: rec.arts.sf.written

    On 10/30/2023 9:05 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
    On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 14:46:12 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 10/29/2023 9:08 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
    On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 09:51:51 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 10/28/2023 8:49 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
    On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 11:08:32 +1300, Your Name <[email protected]> >>>>> wrote:

    On 2023-10-27 16:52:14 +0000, Scott Lurndal said:
    Paul S Person <[email protected]d> writes:
    On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 17:01:44 GMT, [email protected] (Scott Lurndal) >>>>>>>> wrote:
    Paul S Person <[email protected]d> writes:
    On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 11:07:53 +1300, Your Name <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>> wrote:
    On 2023-10-25 20:06:15 +0000, Lynn McGuire said:

    xkcd: Daylight Saving Choice
    https://xkcd.com/2846/

    There was a place in the news not long ago where they disagreed when
    Daylight Saving should start and end, so many businesses simply chose
    when to change their clocks.

    There are also quite a few places that do not bother silly Daylight >>>>>>>>>>> Saving at all, even some regions / towns within countries that do use
    it. That just makes it even messier and more confusing for people. >>>>>>>>>>>

    Yes, I like the compromise of just moving all clocks 39 minutes =3D
    forward year round.

    Explained at:

    https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2846:_Daylight_Saving_Choice

    Lynn

    Daylight Saving is and has always been a complete waste of time - >>>>>>>>>>> literally. It is completely useless and pointless and should be >>>>>>>>>>> abandoned worldwide.

    Whichever origin story you want to believe, it turns out is an >>>>>>>>>>> incorrect assumption because it doesn't actually save energy (as >>>>>>>>>>> below), it doesn't help farmers (animals and crops don't wear watches),
    etc.

    Research has also shown that while it might decrease the time >>>>>>>>>>> the lights are on, it could also increase the amount of energy >>>>>>>>>>> we use to heat and cool our homes. Overall, the answers are >>>>>>>>>>> inconclusive and any energy savings caused by Daylight Savings >>>>>>>>>>> Time were found to be insignificant.

    <https://www.euronews.com/green/2023/02/07/will-scrapping-daylight-savings-time-reduce-energy-consumption>


    That, IIRC, wasn't the point.

    The point was getting workers (and farmers) starting earlier and >>>>>>>>>> working longer because the Sun was up.

    Have you ever _been_ on a farm? Milking starts at 0400 and 1600, >>>>>>>>> regardless of the sun.

    Milking cows isn't all that happens on a farm.

    There is also the plowin' and the sowin' and the reapin'.

    Which can be done as long as there is light.

    There's still the same number of sunlit hours in the day regardless >>>>>>>>> of which hour it starts at.

    Precisely.

    But if people don't normally get up until an hour after the Sun does, >>>>>>>
    Strawman argument, to be sure. A farmer will do his fieldwork while >>>>>>> the sun is up[*], regardless of what the clock says.

    [*] Although farm equipment (e.g. tractors) has had lights for close to >>>>>>> a century now. Quite a bit of grain is combined during darkness in the >>>>>>> grain belt.

    Yep. Why force everyone to change their clocks when just the farmers >>>>>> need to get up earlier?? The whole "Daylight Saving is for the farmers" >>>>>> idea is simply nonsense anyway - most farmers hate it just as much as >>>>>> everyone else:
    <https://agamerica.com/blog/myth-vs-fact-daylight-saving-time-farming/> >>>>>
    I never said it was for farmers only; during WWII, factories needed to >>>>> work more hours also.

    And applying today's standards and practices to the time DST (and
    DDST) originated is inappropriate. It was the situation /then/ that
    prompted its adoption.

    And said situation ended ~70 years ago so why the bleep are we still
    doing it?

    As Tevye would sing: Traa-diiiii-tion!

    Traditions should be liked and fun or potentially useful, not disliked
    and kept around because our great-grandparents did it that way.

    If everybody /wanted/ to do it, it wouldn't have to be a tradition.

    Our great-grandparents may have lit their Christmas trees with
    candles. If not, /their/ great-grandparents surely did. That's a
    tradition that died out. With, no doubt, a lot of whining and
    accusations of cowardice ("who's afraid of a house fire now and
    then?").

    I myself have witnessed the extinction (in me) of a tradition of my
    maternal grandfather's: that each and every piece of tinsel must be
    placed on the tree individually. As opposed to being tossed on in
    globs.

    It took hours, but then, he wasn't the one doing it.

    That tradition had nothing to do with making the tree look pretty. It
    was to keep the kids occupied so they wouldn't run around like savages!
    Now get off his lawn! ;)

    --
    I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
    dirty old man.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Your Name@21:1/5 to Paul S Person on Tue Oct 31 09:43:57 2023
    XPost: rec.arts.sf.written

    On 2023-10-30 16:05:58 +0000, Paul S Person said:
    On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 14:46:12 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
    <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 10/29/2023 9:08 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
    On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 09:51:51 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
    <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 10/28/2023 8:49 AM, Paul S Person wrote:

    I never said it was for farmers only; during WWII, factories needed to >>>>> work more hours also.

    And applying today's standards and practices to the time DST (and
    DDST) originated is inappropriate. It was the situation /then/ that
    prompted its adoption.

    And said situation ended ~70 years ago so why the bleep are we still
    doing it?

    As Tevye would sing: Traa-diiiii-tion!

    Traditions should be liked and fun or potentially useful, not
    disliked>and kept around because our great-grandparents did it that way.

    If everybody /wanted/ to do it, it wouldn't have to be a tradition.

    Our great-grandparents may have lit their Christmas trees with
    candles. If not, /their/ great-grandparents surely did. That's a
    tradition that died out. With, no doubt, a lot of whining and
    accusations of cowardice ("who's afraid of a house fire now and
    then?").

    I myself have witnessed the extinction (in me) of a tradition of my
    maternal grandfather's: that each and every piece of tinsel must be
    placed on the tree individually. As opposed to being tossed on in
    globs.

    It took hours, but then, he wasn't the one doing it.

    The fools next door to us already have their Christmas tree up and the
    lights twinkling at night - it's been there about a week, at least.
    Shops have had their Christmas stock on shelves for weeks as well. :-\

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Paul S Person@21:1/5 to All on Tue Oct 31 08:50:44 2023
    XPost: rec.arts.sf.written

    On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 09:43:57 +1300, Your Name <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    On 2023-10-30 16:05:58 +0000, Paul S Person said:
    On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 14:46:12 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
    <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 10/29/2023 9:08 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
    On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 09:51:51 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
    <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 10/28/2023 8:49 AM, Paul S Person wrote:

    I never said it was for farmers only; during WWII, factories needed to >>>>>> work more hours also.

    And applying today's standards and practices to the time DST (and
    DDST) originated is inappropriate. It was the situation /then/ that >>>>>> prompted its adoption.

    And said situation ended ~70 years ago so why the bleep are we still >>>>> doing it?

    As Tevye would sing: Traa-diiiii-tion!

    Traditions should be liked and fun or potentially useful, not
    disliked>and kept around because our great-grandparents did it that way.

    If everybody /wanted/ to do it, it wouldn't have to be a tradition.

    Our great-grandparents may have lit their Christmas trees with
    candles. If not, /their/ great-grandparents surely did. That's a
    tradition that died out. With, no doubt, a lot of whining and
    accusations of cowardice ("who's afraid of a house fire now and
    then?").

    I myself have witnessed the extinction (in me) of a tradition of my
    maternal grandfather's: that each and every piece of tinsel must be
    placed on the tree individually. As opposed to being tossed on in
    globs.

    It took hours, but then, he wasn't the one doing it.

    The fools next door to us already have their Christmas tree up and the >lights twinkling at night - it's been there about a week, at least.
    Shops have had their Christmas stock on shelves for weeks as well. :-\

    In a lot of cases, it's their big season. Some sell more over the
    holidays than the do the rest of the year [1]. So a desire to extend
    "the holidays" is understandable. Indeed, I was asked if I was "ready
    for Holloween" at the QFC yesterday. I didn't answer, but of course I
    am ready: ready to not turn my porch light on, that is.

    [1] The island stores in /Jaws/ are probably an exception.
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dorothy J Heydt@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Wed Nov 1 02:37:29 2023
    XPost: rec.arts.sf.written

    In article <[email protected]>,
    Paul S Person <[email protected]d> wrote:
    It's easier to require everyone to move their clocks ahead than it is
    to convince everyone to get up an hour earlier.

    [Hal Heydt]
    Or, not to put too fine a point on it, it's easier to lie to
    people than to explain why you want them to do something and try
    to convince them you are correct. Only works on the easily
    confused, though.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Paul S Person@21:1/5 to All on Wed Nov 1 08:46:55 2023
    XPost: rec.arts.sf.written

    On Wed, 1 Nov 2023 02:37:29 GMT, [email protected] (Dorothy J Heydt)
    wrote:

    In article <[email protected]>,
    Paul S Person <[email protected]d> wrote:
    It's easier to require everyone to move their clocks ahead than it is
    to convince everyone to get up an hour earlier.

    [Hal Heydt]
    Or, not to put too fine a point on it, it's easier to lie to
    people than to explain why you want them to do something and try
    to convince them you are correct. Only works on the easily
    confused, though.

    And yet, easily confused or not, pretty much everyone (in the affected
    areas, of course, not everyone absolutely) goes along and moves their
    clocks as directed.

    As an added convenience, Windows computers change their clocks
    automatically. And many non-Windows computers and many devices
    probably do so as well.
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Scott Lurndal@21:1/5 to Paul S Person on Wed Nov 1 16:16:25 2023
    XPost: rec.arts.sf.written

    Paul S Person <[email protected]d> writes:
    On Wed, 1 Nov 2023 02:37:29 GMT, [email protected] (Dorothy J Heydt)
    wrote:

    In article <[email protected]>,
    Paul S Person <[email protected]d> wrote:
    It's easier to require everyone to move their clocks ahead than it is
    to convince everyone to get up an hour earlier.

    [Hal Heydt]
    Or, not to put too fine a point on it, it's easier to lie to
    people than to explain why you want them to do something and try
    to convince them you are correct. Only works on the easily
    confused, though.

    And yet, easily confused or not, pretty much everyone (in the affected
    areas, of course, not everyone absolutely) goes along and moves their
    clocks as directed.

    As an added convenience, Windows computers change their clocks
    automatically. And many non-Windows computers and many devices
    probably do so as well.

    Unix systems did so a decade before the first line of windows code
    was written.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Lynn McGuire@21:1/5 to Scott Lurndal on Wed Nov 1 14:22:03 2023
    XPost: rec.arts.sf.written

    On 11/1/2023 11:16 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
    Paul S Person <[email protected]d> writes:
    On Wed, 1 Nov 2023 02:37:29 GMT, [email protected] (Dorothy J Heydt)
    wrote:

    In article <[email protected]>,
    Paul S Person <[email protected]d> wrote:
    It's easier to require everyone to move their clocks ahead than it is
    to convince everyone to get up an hour earlier.

    [Hal Heydt]
    Or, not to put too fine a point on it, it's easier to lie to
    people than to explain why you want them to do something and try
    to convince them you are correct. Only works on the easily
    confused, though.

    And yet, easily confused or not, pretty much everyone (in the affected
    areas, of course, not everyone absolutely) goes along and moves their
    clocks as directed.

    As an added convenience, Windows computers change their clocks
    automatically. And many non-Windows computers and many devices
    probably do so as well.

    Unix systems did so a decade before the first line of windows code
    was written.

    Where do you think the Windows code came from ? FreeBSD !

    Lynn

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Lynn McGuire@21:1/5 to Paul S Person on Wed Nov 1 14:23:07 2023
    XPost: rec.arts.sf.written

    On 11/1/2023 10:46 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
    On Wed, 1 Nov 2023 02:37:29 GMT, [email protected] (Dorothy J Heydt)
    wrote:

    In article <[email protected]>,
    Paul S Person <[email protected]d> wrote:
    It's easier to require everyone to move their clocks ahead than it is
    to convince everyone to get up an hour earlier.

    [Hal Heydt]
    Or, not to put too fine a point on it, it's easier to lie to
    people than to explain why you want them to do something and try
    to convince them you are correct. Only works on the easily
    confused, though.

    And yet, easily confused or not, pretty much everyone (in the affected
    areas, of course, not everyone absolutely) goes along and moves their
    clocks as directed.

    As an added convenience, Windows computers change their clocks
    automatically. And many non-Windows computers and many devices
    probably do so as well.

    Actually, many of the old Windows operating systems have had emergency
    patches since Congress keeps on moving the DST on / off days around.

    Lynn

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Scott Lurndal@21:1/5 to Lynn McGuire on Wed Nov 1 19:43:29 2023
    XPost: rec.arts.sf.written

    Lynn McGuire <[email protected]> writes:
    On 11/1/2023 11:16 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
    Paul S Person <[email protected]d> writes:
    On Wed, 1 Nov 2023 02:37:29 GMT, [email protected] (Dorothy J Heydt)
    wrote:

    In article <[email protected]>,
    Paul S Person <[email protected]d> wrote:
    It's easier to require everyone to move their clocks ahead than it is >>>>> to convince everyone to get up an hour earlier.

    [Hal Heydt]
    Or, not to put too fine a point on it, it's easier to lie to
    people than to explain why you want them to do something and try
    to convince them you are correct. Only works on the easily
    confused, though.

    And yet, easily confused or not, pretty much everyone (in the affected
    areas, of course, not everyone absolutely) goes along and moves their
    clocks as directed.

    As an added convenience, Windows computers change their clocks
    automatically. And many non-Windows computers and many devices
    probably do so as well.

    Unix systems did so a decade before the first line of windows code
    was written.

    Where do you think the Windows code came from ? FreeBSD !

    There was no 'FreeBSD' in those days. Just BSD, which was
    derived from Unix.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Paul S Person@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Thu Nov 2 09:03:06 2023
    XPost: rec.arts.sf.written

    On Wed, 1 Nov 2023 14:23:07 -0500, Lynn McGuire
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 11/1/2023 10:46 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
    On Wed, 1 Nov 2023 02:37:29 GMT, [email protected] (Dorothy J Heydt)
    wrote:

    In article <[email protected]>,
    Paul S Person <[email protected]d> wrote:
    It's easier to require everyone to move their clocks ahead than it is
    to convince everyone to get up an hour earlier.

    [Hal Heydt]
    Or, not to put too fine a point on it, it's easier to lie to
    people than to explain why you want them to do something and try
    to convince them you are correct. Only works on the easily
    confused, though.

    And yet, easily confused or not, pretty much everyone (in the affected
    areas, of course, not everyone absolutely) goes along and moves their
    clocks as directed.

    As an added convenience, Windows computers change their clocks
    automatically. And many non-Windows computers and many devices
    probably do so as well.

    Actually, many of the old Windows operating systems have had emergency >patches since Congress keeps on moving the DST on / off days around.

    You mean "important updates".

    And, OK, keeping up with the change dates is more important than, say,
    using Windows Defender to hound the user into replacing the computer
    because XP was coming to the end of its life.

    Some "important" updates are important to users. Others are important
    only to Microsoft.

    My use of "convenience" was satirical: by doing this, Microsoft (and
    others) are enforcing the gummints policy. One wonders when the
    Republicans will start investigating /that/.
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John W Kennedy@21:1/5 to Default User on Fri Nov 3 20:22:43 2023
    XPost: rec.arts.sf.written

    On 10/30/23 12:59 AM, Default User wrote:
    Paul S Person wrote:

    On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 09:51:51 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 10/28/2023 8:49 AM, Paul S Person wrote:

    And said situation ended ~70 years ago so why the bleep are we
    still doing it?

    As Tevye would sing: Traa-diiiii-tion!

    Any state can opt out of DST, and some do. What people usually think
    they want is that year-round. At one point the country did that, but
    quickly (for Congress) reversed it.


    Brian

    It was during the first OPEC embargo. Children were walking to school
    before dawn.

    --
    John W. Kennedy
    Algernon Burbage, Lord Roderick, Father Martin, Bishop Baldwin,
    King Pellinore, Captain Bailey, Merlin -- A Kingdom for a Stage!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John W Kennedy@21:1/5 to Paul S Person on Fri Nov 3 21:11:03 2023
    XPost: rec.arts.sf.written

    On 11/1/23 11:46 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
    On Wed, 1 Nov 2023 02:37:29 GMT, [email protected] (Dorothy J Heydt)
    wrote:

    In article <[email protected]>,
    Paul S Person <[email protected]d> wrote:
    It's easier to require everyone to move their clocks ahead than it is
    to convince everyone to get up an hour earlier.

    [Hal Heydt]
    Or, not to put too fine a point on it, it's easier to lie to
    people than to explain why you want them to do something and try
    to convince them you are correct. Only works on the easily
    confused, though.

    And yet, easily confused or not, pretty much everyone (in the affected
    areas, of course, not everyone absolutely) goes along and moves their
    clocks as directed.

    As an added convenience, Windows computers change their clocks
    automatically. And many non-Windows computers and many devices
    probably do so as well.

    I con’t remember MacOS Classic, but macOS and all its derivatives do.
    But there are also lesser devices that tune into WWVB, and late NTSC televisions and VCRs could decode time signals off a side-channel in the closed-captioning data.

    --
    John W. Kennedy
    Algernon Burbage, Lord Roderick, Father Martin, Bishop Baldwin,
    King Pellinore, Captain Bailey, Merlin -- A Kingdom for a Stage!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Scott Lurndal@21:1/5 to John W Kennedy on Sat Nov 4 15:42:41 2023
    XPost: rec.arts.sf.written

    John W Kennedy <[email protected]> writes:
    On 10/30/23 12:59 AM, Default User wrote:
    Paul S Person wrote:

    On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 09:51:51 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 10/28/2023 8:49 AM, Paul S Person wrote:

    And said situation ended ~70 years ago so why the bleep are we
    still doing it?

    As Tevye would sing: Traa-diiiii-tion!

    Any state can opt out of DST, and some do. What people usually think
    they want is that year-round. At one point the country did that, but
    quickly (for Congress) reversed it.


    Brian

    It was during the first OPEC embargo. Children were walking to school
    before dawn.

    It didn't bother me at all (it was a three block walk to elementary
    school).

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Your Name@21:1/5 to John W Kennedy on Sun Nov 5 10:03:35 2023
    XPost: rec.arts.sf.written

    On 2023-11-04 01:11:03 +0000, John W Kennedy said:

    On 11/1/23 11:46 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
    On Wed, 1 Nov 2023 02:37:29 GMT, [email protected] (Dorothy J Heydt)
    wrote:

    In article <[email protected]>,
    Paul S Person <[email protected]d> wrote:
    It's easier to require everyone to move their clocks ahead than it is
    to convince everyone to get up an hour earlier.

    [Hal Heydt]
    Or, not to put too fine a point on it, it's easier to lie to
    people than to explain why you want them to do something and try
    to convince them you are correct. Only works on the easily
    confused, though.

    And yet, easily confused or not, pretty much everyone (in the affected
    areas, of course, not everyone absolutely) goes along and moves their
    clocks as directed.

    As an added convenience, Windows computers change their clocks
    automatically. And many non-Windows computers and many devices
    probably do so as well.

    I con't remember MacOS Classic, but macOS and all its derivatives do.
    But there are also lesser devices that tune into WWVB, and late NTSC televisions and VCRs could decode time signals off a side-channel in
    the closed-captioning data.

    Early versions of the Classic MacOS did not have automatic Daylight
    Saving time changes, but the later ones did. It would have been the
    same for other old OSes (early versions of Windows, AmigaOS, AtariOS,
    etc.)

    Support for older devices usually ends realtively quickly, so if your
    country changes the rules for the start and/or end date, then your old
    devices will continue to use the old rules and change the time on the
    wrong dates. I used to have to change my old computer's clock four
    times a year thanks to the fools in New Zealand's government changed
    the dates.

    Every silly Daylight Saving changeover means I have to go around
    changing two wall clocks, my watch, my mother's watch, the oven clock,
    and the microwave clock, my car clock (which is a bit of a pain since
    it can only be altered forwards), my mother's car clock (which is
    easier since it has a "Daylight Saving" on/off button in the
    infotainment system).

    The varying start and end dates in different countries, states, and
    cities, just makes a complete mockery of the International Time Zones.
    The world's governments should simply select a particular time and day
    to change *all* the clocks by 30mins or whatever, and then stop
    screwing about with them ever again.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Paul S Person@21:1/5 to All on Sun Nov 5 07:52:45 2023
    XPost: rec.arts.sf.written

    On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 10:03:35 +1300, Your Name <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    On 2023-11-04 01:11:03 +0000, John W Kennedy said:

    On 11/1/23 11:46 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
    On Wed, 1 Nov 2023 02:37:29 GMT, [email protected] (Dorothy J Heydt)
    wrote:

    In article <[email protected]>,
    Paul S Person <[email protected]d> wrote:
    It's easier to require everyone to move their clocks ahead than it is >>>>> to convince everyone to get up an hour earlier.

    [Hal Heydt]
    Or, not to put too fine a point on it, it's easier to lie to
    people than to explain why you want them to do something and try
    to convince them you are correct. Only works on the easily
    confused, though.

    And yet, easily confused or not, pretty much everyone (in the affected
    areas, of course, not everyone absolutely) goes along and moves their
    clocks as directed.

    As an added convenience, Windows computers change their clocks
    automatically. And many non-Windows computers and many devices
    probably do so as well.

    I con't remember MacOS Classic, but macOS and all its derivatives do.
    But there are also lesser devices that tune into WWVB, and late NTSC
    televisions and VCRs could decode time signals off a side-channel in
    the closed-captioning data.

    Early versions of the Classic MacOS did not have automatic Daylight
    Saving time changes, but the later ones did. It would have been the
    same for other old OSes (early versions of Windows, AmigaOS, AtariOS,
    etc.)

    Support for older devices usually ends realtively quickly, so if your >country changes the rules for the start and/or end date, then your old >devices will continue to use the old rules and change the time on the
    wrong dates. I used to have to change my old computer's clock four
    times a year thanks to the fools in New Zealand's government changed
    the dates.

    Every silly Daylight Saving changeover means I have to go around
    changing two wall clocks, my watch, my mother's watch, the oven clock,
    and the microwave clock, my car clock (which is a bit of a pain since
    it can only be altered forwards), my mother's car clock (which is
    easier since it has a "Daylight Saving" on/off button in the
    infotainment system).

    The varying start and end dates in different countries, states, and
    cities, just makes a complete mockery of the International Time Zones.
    The world's governments should simply select a particular time and day
    to change *all* the clocks by 30mins or whatever, and then stop
    screwing about with them ever again.

    Except for changing everything by 30 minutes, I agree: DST should stop
    and never be heard from again.

    Changing by 30 minutes would simply move the points where clock time
    (in ST, of course) matches reality from the /middle/ of each Time Zone
    to one of the edges. This statement, of course, depends on my actually
    knowing how Time Zones work.
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Paul S Person@21:1/5 to All on Sun Nov 5 07:49:08 2023
    XPost: rec.arts.sf.written

    On Sat, 04 Nov 2023 15:42:41 GMT, [email protected] (Scott Lurndal)
    wrote:

    John W Kennedy <[email protected]> writes:
    On 10/30/23 12:59 AM, Default User wrote:
    Paul S Person wrote:

    On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 09:51:51 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 10/28/2023 8:49 AM, Paul S Person wrote:

    And said situation ended ~70 years ago so why the bleep are we
    still doing it?

    As Tevye would sing: Traa-diiiii-tion!

    Any state can opt out of DST, and some do. What people usually think
    they want is that year-round. At one point the country did that, but
    quickly (for Congress) reversed it.


    Brian

    It was during the first OPEC embargo. Children were walking to school >>before dawn.

    It didn't bother me at all (it was a three block walk to elementary
    school).

    And, besides, as another poster noted, the danger to children is of
    less importance than the convenience to adults.
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dimensional Traveler@21:1/5 to Paul S Person on Sun Nov 5 08:38:35 2023
    XPost: rec.arts.sf.written

    On 11/5/2023 7:52 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
    On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 10:03:35 +1300, Your Name <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    On 2023-11-04 01:11:03 +0000, John W Kennedy said:

    On 11/1/23 11:46 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
    On Wed, 1 Nov 2023 02:37:29 GMT, [email protected] (Dorothy J Heydt) >>>> wrote:

    In article <[email protected]>,
    Paul S Person <[email protected]d> wrote:
    It's easier to require everyone to move their clocks ahead than it is >>>>>> to convince everyone to get up an hour earlier.

    [Hal Heydt]
    Or, not to put too fine a point on it, it's easier to lie to
    people than to explain why you want them to do something and try
    to convince them you are correct. Only works on the easily
    confused, though.

    And yet, easily confused or not, pretty much everyone (in the affected >>>> areas, of course, not everyone absolutely) goes along and moves their
    clocks as directed.

    As an added convenience, Windows computers change their clocks
    automatically. And many non-Windows computers and many devices
    probably do so as well.

    I con't remember MacOS Classic, but macOS and all its derivatives do.
    But there are also lesser devices that tune into WWVB, and late NTSC
    televisions and VCRs could decode time signals off a side-channel in
    the closed-captioning data.

    Early versions of the Classic MacOS did not have automatic Daylight
    Saving time changes, but the later ones did. It would have been the
    same for other old OSes (early versions of Windows, AmigaOS, AtariOS,
    etc.)

    Support for older devices usually ends realtively quickly, so if your
    country changes the rules for the start and/or end date, then your old
    devices will continue to use the old rules and change the time on the
    wrong dates. I used to have to change my old computer's clock four
    times a year thanks to the fools in New Zealand's government changed
    the dates.

    Every silly Daylight Saving changeover means I have to go around
    changing two wall clocks, my watch, my mother's watch, the oven clock,
    and the microwave clock, my car clock (which is a bit of a pain since
    it can only be altered forwards), my mother's car clock (which is
    easier since it has a "Daylight Saving" on/off button in the
    infotainment system).

    The varying start and end dates in different countries, states, and
    cities, just makes a complete mockery of the International Time Zones.
    The world's governments should simply select a particular time and day
    to change *all* the clocks by 30mins or whatever, and then stop
    screwing about with them ever again.

    Except for changing everything by 30 minutes, I agree: DST should stop
    and never be heard from again.

    Changing by 30 minutes would simply move the points where clock time
    (in ST, of course) matches reality from the /middle/ of each Time Zone
    to one of the edges. This statement, of course, depends on my actually knowing how Time Zones work.

    Its all the railroads' fault.

    --
    I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
    dirty old man.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dorothy J Heydt@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Sun Nov 5 21:23:56 2023
    XPost: rec.arts.sf.written

    In article <[email protected]>,
    Paul S Person <[email protected]d> wrote:
    On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 09:43:57 +1300, Your Name <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    On 2023-10-30 16:05:58 +0000, Paul S Person said:
    On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 14:46:12 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
    <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 10/29/2023 9:08 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
    On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 09:51:51 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
    <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 10/28/2023 8:49 AM, Paul S Person wrote:

    I never said it was for farmers only; during WWII, factories needed to >>>>>>> work more hours also.

    And applying today's standards and practices to the time DST (and >>>>>>> DDST) originated is inappropriate. It was the situation /then/ that >>>>>>> prompted its adoption.

    And said situation ended ~70 years ago so why the bleep are we still >>>>>> doing it?

    As Tevye would sing: Traa-diiiii-tion!

    Traditions should be liked and fun or potentially useful, not
    disliked>and kept around because our great-grandparents did it that way. >>>
    If everybody /wanted/ to do it, it wouldn't have to be a tradition.

    Our great-grandparents may have lit their Christmas trees with
    candles. If not, /their/ great-grandparents surely did. That's a
    tradition that died out. With, no doubt, a lot of whining and
    accusations of cowardice ("who's afraid of a house fire now and
    then?").

    I myself have witnessed the extinction (in me) of a tradition of my
    maternal grandfather's: that each and every piece of tinsel must be
    placed on the tree individually. As opposed to being tossed on in
    globs.

    It took hours, but then, he wasn't the one doing it.

    The fools next door to us already have their Christmas tree up and the >>lights twinkling at night - it's been there about a week, at least.
    Shops have had their Christmas stock on shelves for weeks as well. :-\

    In a lot of cases, it's their big season. Some sell more over the
    holidays than the do the rest of the year [1]. So a desire to extend
    "the holidays" is understandable. Indeed, I was asked if I was "ready
    for Holloween" at the QFC yesterday. I didn't answer, but of course I
    am ready: ready to not turn my porch light on, that is.

    [1] The island stores in /Jaws/ are probably an exception.

    [Hal Heydt]
    Used to be that Thanksgiving was the last Thursday on November.
    FDR changed it to the 4th Thursday in a year with 5 Thursdays in
    the month in order to start the "Christmas season" a week early
    to help retailers economic recovery.

    So the move to start earlier isn't exactly new.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Paul S Person@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Mon Nov 6 08:37:06 2023
    XPost: rec.arts.sf.written

    On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 08:38:35 -0800, Dimensional Traveler
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 11/5/2023 7:52 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
    On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 10:03:35 +1300, Your Name <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    On 2023-11-04 01:11:03 +0000, John W Kennedy said:

    On 11/1/23 11:46 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
    On Wed, 1 Nov 2023 02:37:29 GMT, [email protected] (Dorothy J Heydt) >>>>> wrote:

    In article <[email protected]>,
    Paul S Person <[email protected]d> wrote:
    It's easier to require everyone to move their clocks ahead than it is >>>>>>> to convince everyone to get up an hour earlier.

    [Hal Heydt]
    Or, not to put too fine a point on it, it's easier to lie to
    people than to explain why you want them to do something and try
    to convince them you are correct. Only works on the easily
    confused, though.

    And yet, easily confused or not, pretty much everyone (in the affected >>>>> areas, of course, not everyone absolutely) goes along and moves their >>>>> clocks as directed.

    As an added convenience, Windows computers change their clocks
    automatically. And many non-Windows computers and many devices
    probably do so as well.

    I con't remember MacOS Classic, but macOS and all its derivatives do.
    But there are also lesser devices that tune into WWVB, and late NTSC
    televisions and VCRs could decode time signals off a side-channel in
    the closed-captioning data.

    Early versions of the Classic MacOS did not have automatic Daylight
    Saving time changes, but the later ones did. It would have been the
    same for other old OSes (early versions of Windows, AmigaOS, AtariOS,
    etc.)

    Support for older devices usually ends realtively quickly, so if your
    country changes the rules for the start and/or end date, then your old
    devices will continue to use the old rules and change the time on the
    wrong dates. I used to have to change my old computer's clock four
    times a year thanks to the fools in New Zealand's government changed
    the dates.

    Every silly Daylight Saving changeover means I have to go around
    changing two wall clocks, my watch, my mother's watch, the oven clock,
    and the microwave clock, my car clock (which is a bit of a pain since
    it can only be altered forwards), my mother's car clock (which is
    easier since it has a "Daylight Saving" on/off button in the
    infotainment system).

    The varying start and end dates in different countries, states, and
    cities, just makes a complete mockery of the International Time Zones.
    The world's governments should simply select a particular time and day
    to change *all* the clocks by 30mins or whatever, and then stop
    screwing about with them ever again.

    Except for changing everything by 30 minutes, I agree: DST should stop
    and never be heard from again.

    Changing by 30 minutes would simply move the points where clock time
    (in ST, of course) matches reality from the /middle/ of each Time Zone
    to one of the edges. This statement, of course, depends on my actually
    knowing how Time Zones work.

    Its all the railroads' fault.

    Indeed.
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dorothy J Heydt@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Tue Nov 7 00:13:32 2023
    XPost: rec.arts.sf.written

    In article <[email protected]>,
    Paul S Person <[email protected]d> wrote:
    On Wed, 1 Nov 2023 02:37:29 GMT, [email protected] (Dorothy J Heydt)
    wrote:

    In article <[email protected]>,
    Paul S Person <[email protected]d> wrote:
    It's easier to require everyone to move their clocks ahead than it is
    to convince everyone to get up an hour earlier.

    [Hal Heydt]
    Or, not to put too fine a point on it, it's easier to lie to
    people than to explain why you want them to do something and try
    to convince them you are correct. Only works on the easily
    confused, though.

    And yet, easily confused or not, pretty much everyone (in the affected
    areas, of course, not everyone absolutely) goes along and moves their
    clocks as directed.

    As an added convenience, Windows computers change their clocks
    automatically. And many non-Windows computers and many devices
    probably do so as well.

    [Hal Heydt]
    I can assure you that at least series of Linux releases does,
    too. And without any need to re-boot to make the time change
    effective.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Scott Lurndal@21:1/5 to Dorothy J Heydt on Tue Nov 7 14:51:02 2023
    XPost: rec.arts.sf.written

    [email protected] (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:
    In article <[email protected]>,
    Paul S Person <[email protected]d> wrote:
    On Wed, 1 Nov 2023 02:37:29 GMT, [email protected] (Dorothy J Heydt) >>wrote:

    In article <[email protected]>,
    Paul S Person <[email protected]d> wrote:
    It's easier to require everyone to move their clocks ahead than it is >>>>to convince everyone to get up an hour earlier.

    [Hal Heydt]
    Or, not to put too fine a point on it, it's easier to lie to
    people than to explain why you want them to do something and try
    to convince them you are correct. Only works on the easily
    confused, though.

    And yet, easily confused or not, pretty much everyone (in the affected >>areas, of course, not everyone absolutely) goes along and moves their >>clocks as directed.

    As an added convenience, Windows computers change their clocks >>automatically. And many non-Windows computers and many devices
    probably do so as well.

    [Hal Heydt]
    I can assure you that at least series of Linux releases does,
    too. And without any need to re-boot to make the time change
    effective.

    Unix-like systems have been automatically changing between
    summer time and winter time since 1980 plus or minus, sans reboot.

    Unlike windows, unix has always kept internal time in GMT
    (and later UTC) - it is when the date/time is displayed that
    the adjustments for the current timezone are taken into
    account - which means that users all over the world can use
    the same system and see their local time by setting an
    environment variable (TZ).

    In 70's and 80's, TZ would be formatted as

    TZ=EST5EDT

    Where EST was 5 hours behind GMT (4 during EDT).

    Somewhat later, a more sophisticated format was developed that
    encompassed the wide variety of world-wide time zones.

    Today, it's more like

    TZ='America/Los_Angeles'

    And the system holds a database file which describes the
    relationship between the local timezone and UTC.

    $ TZ='America/New_York' date
    Tue Nov 7 09:50:04 EST 2023
    $ TZ='America/Los_Angeles' date
    Tue Nov 7 06:50:11 PST 2023

    $ TZ='Europe/Berlin' date
    Tue Nov 7 15:50:33 CET 2023

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)