• xkcd: Alphabet Notes

    From Lynn McGuire@21:1/5 to All on Mon Jun 26 19:20:02 2023
    XPost: rec.arts.sf.written

    xkcd: Alphabet Notes
    https://xkcd.com/2794/

    "Design Notes On The Alphabet". It is obvious that Randall thinks
    sideways as I never think about i and j being the only letters with
    dots. And he wants to throw away everything after T.

    Explained at:
    https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2794:_Alphabet_Notes

    Lynn

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  • From Ted Nolan @21:1/5 to [email protected] on Tue Jun 27 02:40:40 2023
    XPost: rec.arts.sf.written

    In article <u7d9vi$14gln$[email protected]>,
    Lynn McGuire <[email protected]> wrote:
    xkcd: Alphabet Notes
    https://xkcd.com/2794/

    "Design Notes On The Alphabet". It is obvious that Randall thinks
    sideways as I never think about i and j being the only letters with
    dots. And he wants to throw away everything after T.

    Explained at:
    https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2794:_Alphabet_Notes

    Lynn


    I 'j' is a latecomer which took over a lot of 'i' words and most of its
    design.
    --
    columbiaclosings.com
    What's not in Columbia anymore..

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  • From Paul S Person@21:1/5 to tednolan on Tue Jun 27 09:19:47 2023
    XPost: rec.arts.sf.written

    On 27 Jun 2023 02:40:40 GMT, [email protected] (Ted Nolan
    <tednolan>) wrote:

    In article <u7d9vi$14gln$[email protected]>,
    Lynn McGuire <[email protected]> wrote:
    xkcd: Alphabet Notes
    https://xkcd.com/2794/

    "Design Notes On The Alphabet". It is obvious that Randall thinks >>sideways as I never think about i and j being the only letters with
    dots. And he wants to throw away everything after T.

    Explained at:
    https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2794:_Alphabet_Notes

    Lynn


    I 'j' is a latecomer which took over a lot of 'i' words and most of its >design.

    IIRC, the (classic) Latin used on monuments had only "i" and "v". "j"
    and "u" were used on paper in some places. These were both
    semi-vowels: that is, they acted as consonants in some cases.

    Calling out "x" (the Greek letter named "ksi") is strange, since "i"
    (1) and "v" (5) and "c" (100) and "d" (50) and "m" (1000) are also
    there -- but perhaps that's part of the fun.
    --
    "In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
    development was the disintegration, under Christian
    influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
    of family right."

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  • From John W Kennedy@21:1/5 to Lynn McGuire on Tue Jun 27 17:44:15 2023
    XPost: rec.arts.sf.written

    On 6/26/23 8:20 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
    xkcd: Alphabet Notes
       https://xkcd.com/2794/

    "Design Notes On The Alphabet".  It is obvious that Randall thinks
    sideways as I never think about i and j being the only letters with
    dots.  And he wants to throw away everything after T.

    Explained at:
       https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2794:_Alphabet_Notes

    Lynn


    It’s easier if you have the history of the alphabet well internalized. I
    and J are the same letter. As late as the early 20th century, you might
    see Roman numerals i, ij, iij..., and Italian words ending in -ii were
    often spelt -ij.

    On another point, Semitic ו became Greek Ϝ (/w/) and also Υ (/u/), which then became Latin F (/f/) and also V (/w/ or /u/). Later, the
    pronunciation of Greek Υ (/u/) shifted to /y/, and so the Romans
    introduced Y for spelling Greek words.

    Around the same time, the pronunciationn of Latin C changed from /g/ to
    /k/; however, some words didn’t change, so G was invented to indicate
    those words, and it was stuck into the alphabet in place of Z, which
    Latin didn’t need. However Z was stuck onto the end so it could still be
    used for spelling Greek.

    Finally, say, “key, cob, coo”, and watch your tongue. Notice how your tongue is placed in three different places. Well, the ancient Semites
    had a sound even further toward the back, and invented the letter ק
    to represent that. (That’s why Arabic words have spellings like
    “Qatar”.) That became Greek Ϙ, which became Latin Q, which the Romans
    used with a U to spell /kw/.

    Later on, in the Middle ages, /u/, /ʊ/, /y/, /w/, /v/, and /f/ got all
    mixed up in the various European languages, and V was split into U, V,
    and W (and sometimes UU) to help cover things better.

    The basic A B G order that the Semitic languages started with is of
    unknown origin. Like Ambassador Kosh, it has always been here.

    --
    John W. Kennedy
    Algernon Burbage, Lord Roderick, Father Martin, Bishop Baldwin,
    King Pellinore, Captain Bailey, Merlin -- A Kingdom for a Stage!

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  • From John W Kennedy@21:1/5 to Paul S Person on Tue Jun 27 17:46:47 2023
    XPost: rec.arts.sf.written

    On 6/27/23 12:19 PM, Paul S Person wrote:
    On 27 Jun 2023 02:40:40 GMT, [email protected] (Ted Nolan
    <tednolan>) wrote:

    In article <u7d9vi$14gln$[email protected]>,
    Lynn McGuire <[email protected]> wrote:
    xkcd: Alphabet Notes
    https://xkcd.com/2794/

    "Design Notes On The Alphabet". It is obvious that Randall thinks
    sideways as I never think about i and j being the only letters with
    dots. And he wants to throw away everything after T.

    Explained at:
    https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2794:_Alphabet_Notes

    Lynn


    I 'j' is a latecomer which took over a lot of 'i' words and most of its
    design.

    IIRC, the (classic) Latin used on monuments had only "i" and "v". "j"
    and "u" were used on paper in some places. These were both
    semi-vowels: that is, they acted as consonants in some cases.

    Calling out "x" (the Greek letter named "ksi") is strange, since "i"
    (1) and "v" (5) and "c" (100) and "d" (50) and "m" (1000) are also
    there -- but perhaps that's part of the fun.

    Roman numerals probably started as independent logograms, which were
    only later assimilated to letters.

    --
    John W. Kennedy
    Algernon Burbage, Lord Roderick, Father Martin, Bishop Baldwin,
    King Pellinore, Captain Bailey, Merlin -- A Kingdom for a Stage!

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  • From Christian Weisgerber@21:1/5 to John W Kennedy on Thu Jun 29 20:40:21 2023
    XPost: rec.arts.sf.written

    On 2023-06-27, John W Kennedy <[email protected]> wrote:

    Around the same time, the pronunciationn of Latin C changed from /g/ to
    /k/; however, some words didn’t change, so G was invented to indicate
    those words,

    No, there was no such sound shift in Latin.[1] Rather, when adopting
    the alphabet from the Etruscans, the Romans somehow ended up with
    only C for both /k/ and /g/. This was later rectified by adding a
    modified C, creating G.

    This here has a description:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C#History


    [1] Latin /k/ reflects Proto-Indo-European *k and *ḱ, /g/ reflects
    *g and *ǵ. This is in good agreement with the reflexes of those
    PIE sounds in other branches of Indo-European. Had /k/ and /g/
    merged in Latin and later split again, then their new distribution
    would not match the one in PIE.
    --
    Christian "naddy" Weisgerber [email protected]

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