James Nicoll wrote:

Five Books About Duplicating Human Beings

For some reason, cloning or copying people never goes according to plan...

https://reactormag.com/five-books-about-duplicating-human-beings/

Stanislav Lem's take on the subject is in one of the Ijon Tichy stories
(The Fourteenth Voyage from The Star Diaries).

On one planet he visits, all inhabitants, and visitors at entry,
are entered into a backup system where their biological and
neurological data are incrementally written to some backing store
to allow them to be recloned from the latest snapshot should they
be killed by a meteorite.

Lem has also written a thematically related philosophical essay
where he discusses transporter cabins and reduces them to a cloning
cabin with integrated suicide function, thus explaining that the
transported person is just a clone, not the original.

(Of course, this was many years before the recent research on
quantum entanglement proved that perfect cloning - as opposed to
transportation (with the original being destroyed in the process)
- is not possible (at the quantum level).

Regards,
-is

--
A medium apple... weighs 182 grams, yields 95 kcal, and contains no
caffeine, thus making it unsuitable for sysadmins. - Brian Kantor

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 5/9/25 05:35, Tony Nance wrote:

On 5/8/25 10:20 AM, James Nicoll wrote:

Five Books About Duplicating Human Beings

For some reason, cloning or copying people never goes according to
plan...

https://reactormag.com/five-books-about-duplicating-human-beings/

I've read two recently that fit here:
Reynolds - On The Steel Breeze
Mickey7 - Ashton

The Ashton is somewhat parallel to your description of Goldin's book
(which I have not read), in the sense that Mickey is an Expendable,
meaning he is sent on very dangerous jobs, knowing he can be re-iterated
from shared memory/files and a backup body. The alienation is baked in
at the start for Mickey, as the majority of the crew don't know how to interact with him - so they largely don't.

Some others I didn't see in the comments:
Banks - The Culture (esp as back-ups)
Zelazny - Lord of Light (reincarnation machines, body back-ups)
Taylor - We Are Legion (We Are Bob)
Lee & Miller - Liaden Universe (Uncle, Dulsey, etc)

Tony

Duplication of a human being is not cloning.

It requires that the human being is duplicated with the same
memories both physical and mental as the original person being
duplicated. Cloning a person results only in a new physical body.
That body has to age and grow gaining independent experience

Duplication takes something like the the Star Trek transporter
which has sufficient memory to hold the whole human database and
facilities for recreation in another instance. It has been used in
stories to move instances of human persons to very remote as in
other star systems to solve problems or to cause them.

Science and technology are still a long way from cloning
people or duplicating them.

bliss- Dell 7730 Precision- PCLinuxOS 2025.05- Linux 6.6.90- Plasma 5.27.11

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Bobbie Sellers <[email protected]> wrote:

Duplication of a human being is not cloning.

Cloning never goes well. cf. Sleeper, or Boys from Brazil.

On the other hand, duplication has some issues. For example,
the situation in Spock Must Die.

Duplication takes something like the the Star Trek transporter
which has sufficient memory to hold the whole human database and
facilities for recreation in another instance. It has been used in
stories to move instances of human persons to very remote as in
other star systems to solve problems or to cause them.

No doubt they keep tape backups of those red-shirted guys who need
constant replacement.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

James Nicoll wrote:

Five Books About Duplicating Human Beings

For some reason, cloning or copying people never goes according to
plan...

A while back I read My Murder by Katie Williams. I like SF and
mysteries, so I'm a sucker for crossovers like this.

In this setting, scientists have created the process of duplicating a recently-deceased person, minus the very recent memories (important).
The world's reaction this is along lines of, "Do we really need this?
We have a lot of people."

After a scandal involving a politician (whaaaat?!) the program is
struggling to stay afloat. So they decide to resurrect the victims of a
serial killer. One of these begins to suspect that there is more to her
death authorities and her husband are telling her.

One of the problems with an author that doesn't usually write SF is
that technology can be kind of out of sync. This is set in a world not
too far in advance of ours in many ways. Self-driving cars have
improved to the point where many people never learn to drive, as they
just call a robo-uber, but some still have regular cars. Vitural
reality has advanced to where immersive games a popular, but VR is also
used for therapy and such. Plausibly 20 years from now.

Then there is the resurrection. They are able to copy the memories and person-state of a deceased person, clone said person, force-grow the
clone to adult in days, and load the recorded memories into that brain.
I mean, whoah. That's some pretty advanced medical/biological science
there.


Brian

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

James Nicoll wrote:

For some reason, cloning or copying people never goes according to
plan...

Just wait until they start duplixing salesmen and then teleporting them
into your house to sell you extended warranties for your car during the
dinner hour.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Sun, 18 May 2025 00:04:59 -0000 (UTC), "Default User" <[email protected]> wrote:

James Nicoll wrote:

Five Books About Duplicating Human Beings

For some reason, cloning or copying people never goes according to
plan...

A while back I read My Murder by Katie Williams. I like SF and
mysteries, so I'm a sucker for crossovers like this.

In this setting, scientists have created the process of duplicating a >recently-deceased person, minus the very recent memories (important).
The world's reaction this is along lines of, "Do we really need this?
We have a lot of people."

After a scandal involving a politician (whaaaat?!) the program is
struggling to stay afloat. So they decide to resurrect the victims of a >serial killer. One of these begins to suspect that there is more to her
death authorities and her husband are telling her.

One of the problems with an author that doesn't usually write SF is
that technology can be kind of out of sync. This is set in a world not
too far in advance of ours in many ways. Self-driving cars have
improved to the point where many people never learn to drive, as they
just call a robo-uber, but some still have regular cars. Vitural
reality has advanced to where immersive games a popular, but VR is also
used for therapy and such. Plausibly 20 years from now.

Then there is the resurrection. They are able to copy the memories and >person-state of a deceased person, clone said person, force-grow the
clone to adult in days, and load the recorded memories into that brain.
I mean, whoah. That's some pretty advanced medical/biological science
there.

The film /Source Code/ has certain similarities to this form of
resurrection.
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Thu, 8 May 2025 14:20:41 -0000 (UTC), [email protected] (James
Nicoll) wrote:

Five Books About Duplicating Human Beings

For some reason, cloning or copying people never goes according to plan...

https://reactormag.com/five-books-about-duplicating-human-beings/

Heh heh - I have no doubt that science could genetically duplicate me
but life as an adult is more than your DNA - getting to age 21 and
beyond means experiences of all kinds - for instance if I chose a
different grad school (not bragging but I did have 7 offers) I
wouldn't have met my wife which means if I married at all it probably
wouldn't be to her since that's where I was when I met her (actually
drinking coffee in the university cafeteria minding my own business
when she sat down across from me curious about my magazine. And DIDN'T
pursue me afterwards - that was MY job heh heh) And that would mean 3
good people now 30-something wouldn't have come into this world - und
zo fort und zo fort

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Thu, 8 May 2025 15:28:22 -0500, Lynn McGuire
<[email protected]> wrote:

There is cloning all over SF. Miles Vorkosigan is cloned with a brother >along with many others in the Vorkosigan books on the Jackson's Whole
planet. Miles and his family even treat his clone brother as a full
fledged family member.

And the kicker was that the clone was what Miles would have been like physically had he not been exposed to a nerve agent in childhood.

Mark Vorkosigan was VERY different from Miles not surprising since his childhood experiences were so different - but then not even identical
twins have similar life experiences most of the time.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

In article <[email protected]>,
The Horny Goat <[email protected]> wrote:

On Thu, 8 May 2025 15:28:22 -0500, Lynn McGuire
<[email protected]> wrote:

There is cloning all over SF. Miles Vorkosigan is cloned with a brother >>along with many others in the Vorkosigan books on the Jackson's Whole >>planet. Miles and his family even treat his clone brother as a full >>fledged family member.

And the kicker was that the clone was what Miles would have been like >physically had he not been exposed to a nerve agent in childhood.

Mark Vorkosigan was VERY different from Miles not surprising since his >childhood experiences were so different - but then not even identical
twins have similar life experiences most of the time.

My uncle by marriage Don had an identical twin Doug. They deliberately
pursued very similar lives: both athletes (although only Don had the
chance to change American history by suplexing Rumfeld hard enough
to kill him, which sadly Don did not), both got married on the same
day, both were determined to avoid their dad's early death from a
heart attack... unaware their family had a tendency for dementia
that would kick in if they lived long enough.

But they decided the one thing they weren't going to do was buy
houses in the same neighbourhood. So Gig and Don went out to look
at houses and Doug and Betsy went out to look at houses and they
didn't compare addresses. Thus, they ended up on different streets...
on lots with a common property line. You could step from Don's back
yard onto Doug's.


--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Lynn McGuire wrote:

On 5/8/2025 9:20 AM, James Nicoll wrote:

Five Books About Duplicating Human Beings

For some reason, cloning or copying people never goes according to
plan...

https://reactormag.com/five-books-about-duplicating-human-beings/

Just the "Ancillary Justice by Ann Leckie (2013)".

There is cloning all over SF.  Miles Vorkosigan is cloned with a brother along with many others in the Vorkosigan books on the Jackson's Whole planet.  Miles and his family even treat his clone brother as a full
fledged family member.

In the Final Architecture books ("Shards Of Earth"), there is a entire
group of female cloned warriors, the Parthenon, who are feared and hated across the galaxy.

Lynn

Jackson's Whole: there's a whole clan of physicians cloned from a single progenitor- the Durona clan, if I recall correctly. They were
instrumental in helping Mark escape from the Whole, and had small roles
in later books (Ivan's fiance was supposed to connect with them when she
went on the run).

Chris

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Fri, 23 May 2025 19:39:32 +0100, Robert Carnegie
<[email protected]> wrote:

<snippo, cloning vs duplication>

I'm not sure what is currently against human cloning,
besides laws against it. Pet cloning, or a process
called cloning, has been available commercially
at least since 2015 (Viagen).

Several ethical systems.

BTW, I think I have seen references to IVF-produced children as "not
human beings" by some of the more ... fanatical ... groups. Clones
would fall under the same category.

And you thought cancelling birth citizenship would be a nightmare! It
may be the thin edge of the wedge.
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 5/24/2025 8:38 AM, Paul S Person wrote:

On Fri, 23 May 2025 19:39:32 +0100, Robert Carnegie
<[email protected]> wrote:

<snippo, cloning vs duplication>

I'm not sure what is currently against human cloning,
besides laws against it. Pet cloning, or a process
called cloning, has been available commercially
at least since 2015 (Viagen).

Several ethical systems.

BTW, I think I have seen references to IVF-produced children as "not
human beings" by some of the more ... fanatical ... groups. Clones
would fall under the same category.

And you thought cancelling birth citizenship would be a nightmare! It
may be the thin edge of the wedge.

"No citizenship for those subjected to ultrasound brain-washing in the
womb!!!"

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Sat, 24 May 2025 08:38:22 -0700, Paul S Person
<[email protected]d> wrote:

BTW, I think I have seen references to IVF-produced children as "not
human beings" by some of the more ... fanatical ... groups. Clones
would fall under the same category.

And you thought cancelling birth citizenship would be a nightmare! It
may be the thin edge of the wedge.

Which is bizarre since barring fairly extensive medical tests how
would you possibly tell?

Similarly for clones - how would they differ from identical twins?

Stupid question perhaps but does anybody know how long frozen eggs
have been used to produce healthy living babies? (I'm pretty sure the
answer is > 20 years but how long specifically?)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 2025-06-23, The Horny Goat <[email protected]> wrote:

Stupid question perhaps but does anybody know how long frozen eggs
have been used to produce healthy living babies? (I'm pretty sure the
answer is > 20 years but how long specifically?)

Christopher Chen in 1986:
The first successful attempt at deep freezing and thawing of the
human oocyte is reported. A twin pregnancy was achieved after
insemination and replacement in utero.

doi:10.1016/s0140-6736(86)90989-x

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber [email protected]

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Mon, 23 Jun 2025 01:08:45 -0700, The Horny Goat <[email protected]>
wrote:

On Sat, 24 May 2025 08:38:22 -0700, Paul S Person ><[email protected]d> wrote:

BTW, I think I have seen references to IVF-produced children as "not
human beings" by some of the more ... fanatical ... groups. Clones
would fall under the same category.

And you thought cancelling birth citizenship would be a nightmare! It
may be the thin edge of the wedge.

Which is bizarre since barring fairly extensive medical tests how
would you possibly tell?

DOGE would hack the medical records and turn them over to the Proper Authorities.

Similarly for clones - how would they differ from identical twins?

Who says identical twins don't count as clones?

Stupid question perhaps but does anybody know how long frozen eggs
have been used to produce healthy living babies? (I'm pretty sure the
answer is > 20 years but how long specifically?)

--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)