• Re: OT: Surely there's an SF story with this.....

    From Ted Nolan @21:1/5 to [email protected] on Thu Aug 29 18:14:41 2024
    In article <vaqdc5$2dfk$[email protected]>,
    Cryptoengineer <[email protected]> wrote:
    Reflect Orbital

    https://www.reflectorbital.com/lighting

    is proposing to launch a fleet of orbital mirrors to provide lighting
    to nighttime locations on the Earth.

    They claim they will be able to light up a 5km diameter circle for
    4 minutes. They're accepting reservations, but I can't find any
    pricing. They expect to start in Q4 2025.

    I'm *extremely* skeptical. To be even as bright as moonlight,
    the mirror would have to appear 1/7 the area of the Moon in
    the sky.

    I can't think of a use case for 4 minutes of light, but they
    also talk about using it to power up solar panel systems at
    night, which makes no sense.

    I think its either an art project, or some kind of scam to
    fleece investors who are bad at math.

    Still, very stfnal.

    pt

    I am reminded of Clarke's "A Slight Case of Sunstroke"...
    --
    columbiaclosings.com
    What's not in Columbia anymore..

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Scott Lurndal@21:1/5 to Lynn McGuire on Thu Aug 29 20:14:52 2024
    Lynn McGuire <[email protected]> writes:
    On 8/29/2024 1:07 PM, Cryptoengineer wrote:
    Reflect Orbital

    https://www.reflectorbital.com/lighting

    is proposing to launch a fleet of orbital mirrors to provide lighting
    to nighttime locations on the Earth.

    They claim they will be able to light up a 5km diameter circle for
    4 minutes. They're accepting reservations, but I can't find any
    pricing. They expect to start in Q4 2025.

    I'm *extremely* skeptical. To be even as bright as moonlight,
    the mirror would have to appear 1/7 the area of the Moon in
    the sky.

    I can't think of a use case for 4 minutes of light, but they
    also talk about using it to power up solar panel systems at
    night, which makes no sense.

    I think its either an art project, or some kind of scam to
    fleece investors who are bad at math.


    https://www.visitnorway.com/listings/the-giant-sun-mirrors-in-rjukan/3632/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Titus G@21:1/5 to Cryptoengineer on Fri Aug 30 18:05:24 2024
    On 30/08/24 06:07, Cryptoengineer wrote:
    Reflect Orbital

    https://www.reflectorbital.com/lighting

    is proposing to launch a fleet of orbital mirrors to provide lighting
    to nighttime locations on the Earth.

    They claim they will be able to light up a 5km diameter circle for
    4 minutes. They're accepting reservations, but I can't find any
    pricing. They expect to start in Q4 2025.

    I'm *extremely* skeptical. To be even as bright as moonlight,
    the mirror would have to appear 1/7 the area of the Moon in
    the sky.

    I can't think of a use case for 4 minutes of light, but they
    also talk about using it to power up solar panel systems at
    night, which makes no sense.

    I think its either an art project, or some kind of scam to
    fleece investors who are bad at math.

    Still, very stfnal.

    pt

    I found the website fascinating including the interesting backgrounds of
    the principals. (Keep us informed if you learn more, please.)
    The SF story I am reminded of is of a far smaller scale about the
    unfortunate soccer referee choosing principle to the game over loyalty
    to the crowd but I can't remember the title nor author.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Charles Packer@21:1/5 to Cryptoengineer on Fri Aug 30 07:45:58 2024
    On Thu, 29 Aug 2024 14:07:01 -0400, Cryptoengineer wrote:

    Reflect Orbital

    https://www.reflectorbital.com/lighting

    is proposing to launch a fleet of orbital mirrors to provide lighting to nighttime locations on the Earth.

    They claim they will be able to light up a 5km diameter circle for 4
    minutes. They're accepting reservations, but I can't find any pricing.
    They expect to start in Q4 2025.

    I'm *extremely* skeptical. To be even as bright as moonlight,
    the mirror would have to appear 1/7 the area of the Moon in the sky.

    I can't think of a use case for 4 minutes of light, but they also talk
    about using it to power up solar panel systems at night, which makes no sense.

    I think its either an art project, or some kind of scam to fleece
    investors who are bad at math.

    Still, very stfnal.


    In any case, in the default imagery I recognized Marina Del Ray,
    to I spent a few minutes moving the spotlight up the coast to
    Santa Monica and zooming in on the apartment building where I
    lived 1969-70.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mad Hamish@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Fri Aug 30 17:47:11 2024
    On Thu, 29 Aug 2024 14:07:01 -0400, Cryptoengineer
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Reflect Orbital

    https://www.reflectorbital.com/lighting

    is proposing to launch a fleet of orbital mirrors to provide lighting
    to nighttime locations on the Earth.

    They claim they will be able to light up a 5km diameter circle for
    4 minutes. They're accepting reservations, but I can't find any
    pricing. They expect to start in Q4 2025.

    I'm *extremely* skeptical. To be even as bright as moonlight,
    the mirror would have to appear 1/7 the area of the Moon in
    the sky.

    I can't think of a use case for 4 minutes of light, but they
    also talk about using it to power up solar panel systems at
    night, which makes no sense.

    I think its either an art project, or some kind of scam to
    fleece investors who are bad at math.

    Still, very stfnal.

    https://www.space.com/orbiting-mirror-boost-solar-power-production has
    some additional details

    I'm not convinced (and I suspect that investing the money into energy
    storage would do more) but it doesn't seem complete batshit

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mad Hamish@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Fri Aug 30 17:39:10 2024
    On Thu, 29 Aug 2024 13:29:43 -0500, Lynn McGuire
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 8/29/2024 1:07 PM, Cryptoengineer wrote:
    Reflect Orbital

    https://www.reflectorbital.com/lighting

    is proposing to launch a fleet of orbital mirrors to provide lighting
    to nighttime locations on the Earth.

    They claim they will be able to light up a 5km diameter circle for
    4 minutes. They're accepting reservations, but I can't find any
    pricing. They expect to start in Q4 2025.

    I'm *extremely* skeptical. To be even as bright as moonlight,
    the mirror would have to appear 1/7 the area of the Moon in
    the sky.

    I can't think of a use case for 4 minutes of light, but they
    also talk about using it to power up solar panel systems at
    night, which makes no sense.

    I think its either an art project, or some kind of scam to
    fleece investors who are bad at math.

    Still, very stfnal.

    pt

    "Live Free or Die" by John Ringo is close to the concept. The
    protagonist uses millions of mirrors by Sol to melt metal heavy
    asteroids and protect Earth from invaders coming through the new Star Gate.

    I'm hoping that they'll be well short of that level

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ted Nolan @21:1/5 to [email protected] on Fri Aug 30 12:24:01 2024
    In article <varnf4$c6r7$[email protected]>, Titus G <[email protected]> wrote: >On 30/08/24 06:07, Cryptoengineer wrote:
    Reflect Orbital

    https://www.reflectorbital.com/lighting

    is proposing to launch a fleet of orbital mirrors to provide lighting
    to nighttime locations on the Earth.

    They claim they will be able to light up a 5km diameter circle for
    4 minutes. They're accepting reservations, but I can't find any
    pricing. They expect to start in Q4 2025.

    I'm *extremely* skeptical. To be even as bright as moonlight,
    the mirror would have to appear 1/7 the area of the Moon in
    the sky.

    I can't think of a use case for 4 minutes of light, but they
    also talk about using it to power up solar panel systems at
    night, which makes no sense.

    I think its either an art project, or some kind of scam to
    fleece investors who are bad at math.

    Still, very stfnal.

    pt

    I found the website fascinating including the interesting backgrounds of
    the principals. (Keep us informed if you learn more, please.)
    The SF story I am reminded of is of a far smaller scale about the
    unfortunate soccer referee choosing principle to the game over loyalty
    to the crowd but I can't remember the title nor author.

    Clarke, "A Slight Case Of Sunstroke" (aka "The Stroke Of The Sun").
    --
    columbiaclosings.com
    What's not in Columbia anymore..

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Scott Lurndal@21:1/5 to Titus G on Fri Aug 30 14:35:34 2024
    Titus G <[email protected]> writes:
    On 30/08/24 06:07, Cryptoengineer wrote:
    Reflect Orbital

    https://www.reflectorbital.com/lighting

    is proposing to launch a fleet of orbital mirrors to provide lighting
    to nighttime locations on the Earth.

    They claim they will be able to light up a 5km diameter circle for
    4 minutes. They're accepting reservations, but I can't find any
    pricing. They expect to start in Q4 2025.

    I'm *extremely* skeptical. To be even as bright as moonlight,
    the mirror would have to appear 1/7 the area of the Moon in
    the sky.

    I can't think of a use case for 4 minutes of light, but they
    also talk about using it to power up solar panel systems at
    night, which makes no sense.

    I think its either an art project, or some kind of scam to
    fleece investors who are bad at math.

    Still, very stfnal.

    pt

    I found the website fascinating

    It crashed my browser.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Scott Lurndal@21:1/5 to Tony Nance on Fri Aug 30 21:29:31 2024
    Tony Nance <[email protected]> writes:
    On 8/30/24 4:14 PM, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
    On 30/08/2024 13.14, Cryptoengineer wrote:
    On 8/29/2024 4:14 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
    Lynn McGuire <[email protected]> writes:
    On 8/29/2024 1:07 PM, Cryptoengineer wrote:
    Reflect Orbital

    https://www.reflectorbital.com/lighting

    is proposing to launch a fleet of orbital mirrors to provide lighting >>>>>> to nighttime locations on the Earth.

    They claim they will be able to light up a 5km diameter circle for >>>>>> 4 minutes. They're accepting reservations, but I can't find any
    pricing. They expect to start in Q4 2025.

    I'm *extremely* skeptical. To be even as bright as moonlight,
    the mirror would have to appear 1/7 the area of the Moon in
    the sky.

    I can't think of a use case for 4 minutes of light, but they
    also talk about using it to power up solar panel systems at
    night, which makes no sense.

    I think its either an art project, or some kind of scam to
    fleece investors who are bad at math.


    https://www.visitnorway.com/listings/the-giant-sun-mirrors-in-rjukan/3632/ >>>
    To my surprise, apparently the Soviets tried an orbital mirror,
    with some success.

    https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/how-russian-space-mirror-briefly-lit-night-180957894/

    Didn't an orbital mirror figure in Bujold's _Komarr_?


    Yes - planned to be a major power source, helping terraform the planet.

    And an (unintentionally in that case) terrorism target....

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Paul S Person@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Mon Sep 2 09:01:39 2024
    On Sun, 1 Sep 2024 14:16:07 -0400, Cryptoengineer
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    <snip-a-bit>
    The Soviets did try a 20 meter mirror, which very
    briefly provided light on a rapidly moving 5km spot
    on the ground, equivalent to 'several full moons'.

    https://www.vice.com/en/article/the-man-who-turned-night-into-day/

    So, yes, maybe you could provide a light with some usefulness
    for a few minutes, if the mirror was steered to point to one
    spot. Reflect Orbitals claim is that they can provide
    light for 4 minutes at a time.

    The ISS can be in sight for as long as 6.5 minutes on a pass, so
    RO's mirrors must be lower. That's good for being bright, but also
    means they're subject to a lot of drag from remnant traces of
    atmosphere, and will need to either have propulsion to keep on
    station, or be replaced frequently.

    If they were far enough out, they would be over the same spot for a
    lot longer than that. Have to be a /really/ big mirror, though.

    The suggestion to use RO's mirrors to power solar plants is a
    total non-starter. The mirror can't deliver more light than
    falls on it, and if its spread over several kilometers on the
    ground, its just not bright enough to do anything useful, quite
    aside from the idea that powering one for less than 5 minutes
    has a use case.

    Finally, you'd piss off every astronomer and stargazer on Earth.

    IIRC, Musk's satellite clouds have already done that.
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mad Hamish@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Wed Sep 4 01:04:31 2024
    On Fri, 30 Aug 2024 13:31:29 -0500, Lynn McGuire
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 8/30/2024 2:39 AM, Mad Hamish wrote:
    On Thu, 29 Aug 2024 13:29:43 -0500, Lynn McGuire
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 8/29/2024 1:07 PM, Cryptoengineer wrote:
    Reflect Orbital

    https://www.reflectorbital.com/lighting

    is proposing to launch a fleet of orbital mirrors to provide lighting
    to nighttime locations on the Earth.

    They claim they will be able to light up a 5km diameter circle for
    4 minutes. They're accepting reservations, but I can't find any
    pricing. They expect to start in Q4 2025.

    I'm *extremely* skeptical. To be even as bright as moonlight,
    the mirror would have to appear 1/7 the area of the Moon in
    the sky.

    I can't think of a use case for 4 minutes of light, but they
    also talk about using it to power up solar panel systems at
    night, which makes no sense.

    I think its either an art project, or some kind of scam to
    fleece investors who are bad at math.

    Still, very stfnal.

    pt

    "Live Free or Die" by John Ringo is close to the concept. The
    protagonist uses millions of mirrors by Sol to melt metal heavy
    asteroids and protect Earth from invaders coming through the new Star Gate. >>
    I'm hoping that they'll be well short of that level

    What level ?

    The level that melts heavy metal asteroids (and also blows up
    spaceships iirc)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From [email protected]@21:1/5 to Cryptoengineer on Tue Sep 3 20:05:54 2024
    Cryptoengineer <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 8/29/2024 4:14 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
    Lynn McGuire <[email protected]> writes:
    On 8/29/2024 1:07 PM, Cryptoengineer wrote:
    Reflect Orbital

    https://www.reflectorbital.com/lighting

    is proposing to launch a fleet of orbital mirrors to provide lighting
    to nighttime locations on the Earth.

    They claim they will be able to light up a 5km diameter circle for
    4 minutes. They're accepting reservations, but I can't find any
    pricing. They expect to start in Q4 2025.

    I'm *extremely* skeptical. To be even as bright as moonlight,
    the mirror would have to appear 1/7 the area of the Moon in
    the sky.

    I can't think of a use case for 4 minutes of light, but they
    also talk about using it to power up solar panel systems at
    night, which makes no sense.

    I think its either an art project, or some kind of scam to
    fleece investors who are bad at math.


    https://www.visitnorway.com/listings/the-giant-sun-mirrors-in-rjukan/3632/

    To my surprise, apparently the Soviets tried an orbital mirror,
    with some success.

    https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/how-russian-space-mirror-briefly-lit-night-180957894/

    I don't get it - the math says this shouldn't work.

    Doesn't seem particularly effective (as a light source or cost-wise) but a rough order-of-magnitude calculation looks reasonable.
    From the article about the Russian test, they used a 20m mirror and a 4km
    spot on the surface. The ratio between the areas of the mirror and the spot
    is 1:40000. Sunlight is 1368 W/m^2 at Earth's orbit. Ignoring losses, that gives .0342 W/m^2 at the surface. The full moon is about 1/10 of that, so
    "2-3 times as bright as the full moon" would imply an efficency of 20-30%.
    Did I slip a digit somewhere?

    Robert
    --
    Robert K. Shull Email: rkshull at rosettacon dot com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dimensional Traveler@21:1/5 to Lynn McGuire on Tue Sep 3 18:30:09 2024
    On 9/3/2024 11:44 AM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
    On 9/3/2024 1:08 PM, Cryptoengineer wrote:
    On 9/3/2024 11:04 AM, Mad Hamish wrote:
    On Fri, 30 Aug 2024 13:31:29 -0500, Lynn McGuire
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 8/30/2024 2:39 AM, Mad Hamish wrote:
    On Thu, 29 Aug 2024 13:29:43 -0500, Lynn McGuire
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 8/29/2024 1:07 PM, Cryptoengineer wrote:
    Reflect Orbital

    https://www.reflectorbital.com/lighting

    is proposing to launch a fleet of orbital mirrors to provide
    lighting
    to nighttime locations on the Earth.

    They claim they will be able to light up a 5km diameter circle for >>>>>>> 4 minutes. They're accepting reservations, but I can't find any
    pricing. They expect to start in Q4 2025.

    I'm *extremely* skeptical. To be even as bright as moonlight,
    the mirror would have to appear 1/7 the area of the Moon in
    the sky.

    I can't think of a use case for 4 minutes of light, but they
    also talk about using it to power up solar panel systems at
    night, which makes no sense.

    I think its either an art project, or some kind of scam to
    fleece investors who are bad at math.

    Still, very stfnal.

    pt

    "Live Free or Die" by John Ringo is close to the concept.  The
    protagonist uses millions of mirrors by Sol to melt metal heavy
    asteroids and protect Earth from invaders coming through the new
    Star Gate.

    I'm hoping that they'll be well short of that level

    What level ?

    The level that melts heavy metal asteroids (and also blows up
    spaceships iirc)

    And is a weapon of mass destruction if pointed at the Earth.

    pt

    Better have failsafes.

    But then you wouldn't have a story for the book!

    --
    I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
    dirty old man.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dimensional Traveler@21:1/5 to Lynn McGuire on Wed Sep 4 07:57:50 2024
    On 9/3/2024 10:58 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
    On 9/3/2024 8:30 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
    On 9/3/2024 11:44 AM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
    On 9/3/2024 1:08 PM, Cryptoengineer wrote:
    On 9/3/2024 11:04 AM, Mad Hamish wrote:
    On Fri, 30 Aug 2024 13:31:29 -0500, Lynn McGuire
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 8/30/2024 2:39 AM, Mad Hamish wrote:
    On Thu, 29 Aug 2024 13:29:43 -0500, Lynn McGuire
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 8/29/2024 1:07 PM, Cryptoengineer wrote:
    Reflect Orbital

    https://www.reflectorbital.com/lighting

    is proposing to launch a fleet of orbital mirrors to provide >>>>>>>>> lighting
    to nighttime locations on the Earth.

    They claim they will be able to light up a 5km diameter circle for >>>>>>>>> 4 minutes. They're accepting reservations, but I can't find any >>>>>>>>> pricing. They expect to start in Q4 2025.

    I'm *extremely* skeptical. To be even as bright as moonlight, >>>>>>>>> the mirror would have to appear 1/7 the area of the Moon in
    the sky.

    I can't think of a use case for 4 minutes of light, but they >>>>>>>>> also talk about using it to power up solar panel systems at
    night, which makes no sense.

    I think its either an art project, or some kind of scam to
    fleece investors who are bad at math.

    Still, very stfnal.

    pt

    "Live Free or Die" by John Ringo is close to the concept.  The >>>>>>>> protagonist uses millions of mirrors by Sol to melt metal heavy >>>>>>>> asteroids and protect Earth from invaders coming through the new >>>>>>>> Star Gate.

    I'm hoping that they'll be well short of that level

    What level ?

    The level that melts heavy metal asteroids (and also blows up
    spaceships iirc)

    And is a weapon of mass destruction if pointed at the Earth.

    pt

    Better have failsafes.

    But then you wouldn't have a story for the book!

    But there would be no one left on Earth to read the story !

    And how many books are out there where Earth doesn't exist anymore or at
    least plays no part in the story?

    --
    I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
    dirty old man.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Paul S Person@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Wed Sep 4 09:27:47 2024
    On Tue, 3 Sep 2024 13:49:53 -0500, Lynn McGuire
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 9/3/2024 1:13 PM, Cryptoengineer wrote:
    On 9/2/2024 12:01 PM, Paul S Person wrote:
    On Sun, 1 Sep 2024 14:16:07 -0400, Cryptoengineer
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    <snip-a-bit>
    The Soviets did try a 20 meter mirror, which very
    briefly provided light on a rapidly moving 5km spot
    on the ground, equivalent to 'several full moons'.

    https://www.vice.com/en/article/the-man-who-turned-night-into-day/

    So, yes, maybe you could provide a light with some usefulness
    for a few minutes, if the mirror was steered to point to one
    spot. Reflect Orbitals claim is that they can provide
    light for 4 minutes at a time.

    The ISS can be in sight for as long as 6.5 minutes on a pass, so
    RO's mirrors must be lower. That's good for being bright, but also
    means they're subject to a lot of drag from remnant traces of
    atmosphere, and will need to either have propulsion to keep on
    station, or be replaced frequently.

    If they were far enough out, they would be over the same spot for a
    lot longer than that. Have to be a /really/ big mirror, though.

    The suggestion to use RO's mirrors to power solar plants is a
    total non-starter. The mirror can't deliver more light than
    falls on it, and if its spread over several kilometers on the
    ground, its just not bright enough to do anything useful, quite
    aside from the idea that powering one for less than 5 minutes
    has a use case.

    Finally, you'd piss off every astronomer and stargazer on Earth.

    IIRC, Musk's satellite clouds have already done that.

    Yes, and Starlink has gone to considerable effort to
    mitigate the problem, with significant (but not total)
    success.

    The constellation the Chinese are starting to put up
    looks like very bad news, though.

    pt

    Especially when the Chinese space ship broke apart in orbit into 300+
    pieces at 800 km LEO.
    https://www.space.com/china-megaconstellation-launch-space-junk
    and

    https://www.reddit.com/r/space/comments/1eo0nbi/chinese_rocket_breaks_apart_after/

    People are very unhappy as this is not the first time the Chinese have
    done this.

    A classic case of externalized costs.

    So, the Chicoms /are/ turning Capitalist after all.
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)