Awhile back, The Three Body Problem was mentioned. In that thread, there
was no mention of the current Netflix version. Was this mentioned
somewhere else and I just missed it? Google groups is of no help any more.
I have just started the series and I am intrigued, so far. Just two
episodes. My wife is rather "meh" about it, but she said the same thing
about Star Trek 1 which in reality she HATED so I may be watching it
after she goes to bed.
----------------
Dave Scruggs
Senior Software Engineer - Lockheed Martin, et. al (mostly Retired)
Captain - Boulder Creek Fire (Retired)
Board of Directors - Boulder Creek Fire Protection District (What was I thinking?)
On 8/16/2024 4:55 PM, William Hyde wrote:
Lynn McGuire wrote:
On 8/16/2024 1:26 PM, BCFD 36 wrote:
Awhile back, The Three Body Problem was mentioned. In that thread, there >>>> was no mention of the current Netflix version. Was this mentioned
somewhere else and I just missed it? Google groups is of no help any
more.
I have just started the series and I am intrigued, so far. Just two
episodes. My wife is rather "meh" about it, but she said the same thing >>>> about Star Trek 1 which in reality she HATED so I may be watching it
after she goes to bed.
----------------
Dave Scruggs
Senior Software Engineer - Lockheed Martin, et. al (mostly Retired)
Captain - Boulder Creek Fire (Retired)
Board of Directors - Boulder Creek Fire Protection District (What was I >>>> thinking?)
I did not like the Netflix version, have yet to read the book. Too much >>> time spent on the China Cultural Revolution and their violence against the >>> educated. Felt like a Children of the Corn mini series. I gave up after >>> two episodes.
I've known several people whose lives were damaged by that event. And
these were the lucky ones, who made it to the west.
One scientist I knew never got over it, especially the abuse suffered by
her mother. One might have expected her father, an educated man who had
lived in the West and still had children living there to be as big a
target. But he was left alone, she said, because he was a renowned
gerontologist and the Party leadership was getting older.
Another distinguished scientist told me he reached the last year of
secondary education only to realize that he'd learned absolutely nothing
owing to the constant meetings and demonstrations. Ignoring his teachers, >> he packed four years of school into one. Judging by his subsequent career, >> he kept up that level of effort for the next few decades.
William Hyde
One of my Dad's mainland Chinese grad students from OU lived with us for a couple of years from 1973 to 1974 and worked for my Dad from 1973 to 1995.
He came over to the USA in 1966 or 1967 and got a PhD in Chemical Engineering from OU in 1973. I heard enough stories from him about growing on a farm in China, living in a cave, starving all the time. If our family did not eat everything at supper then he would finish everything off. It took my mother several months break him of that habit. But he never got fat. He never mentioned anything about the Cultural Revolution but I suspect it was the reason why he left China.
He was incredibly smart, he would give me an algorithm and I would code it up in Fortran 66 for him in a subroutine and give him the card deck. He was very submissive, he would never look you in the face, would always look down. He went back to mainland China in 1995 to help with his sister's export business. Sadly, he soon had a heart attack and passed away. His sister was kind enough to call my father and tell us.
I know several people in the USA who had to leave Iran when they had their cultural revolution. Mostly engineers working for USA companies like Dupont in Iran. I've gotten a few stories from them, grim, very grim. One of my classmates at TAMU disappeared at the midyear of our junior year in 1980 when the Iranian Embassy in the USA sent him a letter cutting off his funds and ordering him to come home. They also revoked his visa but President Reagan gave all those people green card status in 1981. He refused to go home to Iran since he was a nephew of the Shah, he figured that they would shoot him the minute he stepped off the plane.
In other words, the various Cultural Revolutions are a little too real for me and I do not enjoy reading about or viewing them.
Lynn
On 8/17/2024 4:51 AM, D wrote:
On Fri, 16 Aug 2024, Lynn McGuire wrote:
On 8/16/2024 4:55 PM, William Hyde wrote:
Lynn McGuire wrote:
On 8/16/2024 1:26 PM, BCFD 36 wrote:
Awhile back, The Three Body Problem was mentioned. In that thread, >>>>>> there was no mention of the current Netflix version. Was this mentioned >>>>>> somewhere else and I just missed it? Google groups is of no help any >>>>>> more.
I have just started the series and I am intrigued, so far. Just two >>>>>> episodes. My wife is rather "meh" about it, but she said the same thing >>>>>> about Star Trek 1 which in reality she HATED so I may be watching it >>>>>> after she goes to bed.
----------------
Dave Scruggs
Senior Software Engineer - Lockheed Martin, et. al (mostly Retired) >>>>>> Captain - Boulder Creek Fire (Retired)
Board of Directors - Boulder Creek Fire Protection District (What was I >>>>>> thinking?)
I did not like the Netflix version, have yet to read the book. Too much >>>>> time spent on the China Cultural Revolution and their violence against >>>>> the educated. Felt like a Children of the Corn mini series. I gave up >>>>> after two episodes.
I've known several people whose lives were damaged by that event. And >>>> these were the lucky ones, who made it to the west.
One scientist I knew never got over it, especially the abuse suffered by >>>> her mother. One might have expected her father, an educated man who had >>>> lived in the West and still had children living there to be as big a
target. But he was left alone, she said, because he was a renowned
gerontologist and the Party leadership was getting older.
Another distinguished scientist told me he reached the last year of
secondary education only to realize that he'd learned absolutely nothing >>>> owing to the constant meetings and demonstrations. Ignoring his
teachers, he packed four years of school into one. Judging by his
subsequent career, he kept up that level of effort for the next few
decades.
William Hyde
One of my Dad's mainland Chinese grad students from OU lived with us for a >>> couple of years from 1973 to 1974 and worked for my Dad from 1973 to 1995. >>> He came over to the USA in 1966 or 1967 and got a PhD in Chemical
Engineering from OU in 1973. I heard enough stories from him about
growing on a farm in China, living in a cave, starving all the time. If >>> our family did not eat everything at supper then he would finish
everything off. It took my mother several months break him of that
habit. But he never got fat. He never mentioned anything about the
Cultural Revolution but I suspect it was the reason why he left China.
He was incredibly smart, he would give me an algorithm and I would code it >>> up in Fortran 66 for him in a subroutine and give him the card deck. He
was very submissive, he would never look you in the face, would always
look down. He went back to mainland China in 1995 to help with his
sister's export business. Sadly, he soon had a heart attack and passed >>> away. His sister was kind enough to call my father and tell us.
I know several people in the USA who had to leave Iran when they had their >>> cultural revolution. Mostly engineers working for USA companies like
Dupont in Iran. I've gotten a few stories from them, grim, very grim. >>> One of my classmates at TAMU disappeared at the midyear of our junior year >>> in 1980 when the Iranian Embassy in the USA sent him a letter cutting off >>> his funds and ordering him to come home. They also revoked his visa but >>> President Reagan gave all those people green card status in 1981. He
refused to go home to Iran since he was a nephew of the Shah, he figured >>> that they would shoot him the minute he stepped off the plane.
In other words, the various Cultural Revolutions are a little too real for >>> me and I do not enjoy reading about or viewing them.
Lynn
With this historical luggage I can never understand how people in europe
can insist on voting for socialists. Give them enough power and they tend
to repeat themselves. Just look at the socialist UK government now cracking >> down on free speech. Very sad.
Incredibly sad. And the Democrat candidate here in the USA is talking freezing food prices and making grocery stores report any changes in their prices, causing huge paperwork and never ending bureaucracies.
Lynn
On 8/17/2024 5:51 AM, D wrote:
On Fri, 16 Aug 2024, Lynn McGuire wrote:
On 8/16/2024 4:55 PM, William Hyde wrote:
Lynn McGuire wrote:
On 8/16/2024 1:26 PM, BCFD 36 wrote:
Awhile back, The Three Body Problem was mentioned. In that thread, >>>>>> there was no mention of the current Netflix version. Was this mentioned >>>>>> somewhere else and I just missed it? Google groups is of no help any >>>>>> more.
I have just started the series and I am intrigued, so far. Just two >>>>>> episodes. My wife is rather "meh" about it, but she said the same thing >>>>>> about Star Trek 1 which in reality she HATED so I may be watching it >>>>>> after she goes to bed.
----------------
Dave Scruggs
Senior Software Engineer - Lockheed Martin, et. al (mostly Retired) >>>>>> Captain - Boulder Creek Fire (Retired)
Board of Directors - Boulder Creek Fire Protection District (What was I >>>>>> thinking?)
I did not like the Netflix version, have yet to read the book. Too much >>>>> time spent on the China Cultural Revolution and their violence against >>>>> the educated. Felt like a Children of the Corn mini series. I gave up >>>>> after two episodes.
I've known several people whose lives were damaged by that event. And >>>> these were the lucky ones, who made it to the west.
One scientist I knew never got over it, especially the abuse suffered by >>>> her mother. One might have expected her father, an educated man who had >>>> lived in the West and still had children living there to be as big a
target. But he was left alone, she said, because he was a renowned
gerontologist and the Party leadership was getting older.
Another distinguished scientist told me he reached the last year of
secondary education only to realize that he'd learned absolutely nothing >>>> owing to the constant meetings and demonstrations. Ignoring his
teachers, he packed four years of school into one. Judging by his
subsequent career, he kept up that level of effort for the next few
decades.
William Hyde
One of my Dad's mainland Chinese grad students from OU lived with us for a >>> couple of years from 1973 to 1974 and worked for my Dad from 1973 to 1995. >>> He came over to the USA in 1966 or 1967 and got a PhD in Chemical
Engineering from OU in 1973. I heard enough stories from him about
growing on a farm in China, living in a cave, starving all the time. If >>> our family did not eat everything at supper then he would finish
everything off. It took my mother several months break him of that
habit. But he never got fat. He never mentioned anything about the
Cultural Revolution but I suspect it was the reason why he left China.
He was incredibly smart, he would give me an algorithm and I would code it >>> up in Fortran 66 for him in a subroutine and give him the card deck. He
was very submissive, he would never look you in the face, would always
look down. He went back to mainland China in 1995 to help with his
sister's export business. Sadly, he soon had a heart attack and passed >>> away. His sister was kind enough to call my father and tell us.
I know several people in the USA who had to leave Iran when they had their >>> cultural revolution. Mostly engineers working for USA companies like
Dupont in Iran. I've gotten a few stories from them, grim, very grim. >>> One of my classmates at TAMU disappeared at the midyear of our junior year >>> in 1980 when the Iranian Embassy in the USA sent him a letter cutting off >>> his funds and ordering him to come home. They also revoked his visa but >>> President Reagan gave all those people green card status in 1981. He
refused to go home to Iran since he was a nephew of the Shah, he figured >>> that they would shoot him the minute he stepped off the plane.
In other words, the various Cultural Revolutions are a little too real for >>> me and I do not enjoy reading about or viewing them.
Lynn
With this historical luggage I can never understand how people in europe
can insist on voting for socialists. Give them enough power and they tend
to repeat themselves. Just look at the socialist UK government now cracking >> down on free speech. Very sad.
I concur. I'm half Estonian, and have met relatives who were exiled to Siberia in the 1950s as 'rich peasants'. (They got back after about a decade).
When I was there in 1985, I was followed as I walked around town, and
our hotel rooms were bugged.
Russia was like that under the Tsar.
Russia was like that under the Soviets, with wider reach.
Russia is still like that under Putin.
Russia will Russia.
Moskovia delenda est.
pt
On 8/17/2024 5:51 AM, D wrote:
With this historical luggage I can never understand how people in europe
can insist on voting for socialists. Give them enough power and they
tend to repeat themselves. Just look at the socialist UK government now
cracking down on free speech. Very sad.
I concur. I'm half Estonian, and have met relatives who were exiled to >Siberia in the 1950s as 'rich peasants'. (They got back after about a >decade).
When I was there in 1985, I was followed as I walked around town, and
our hotel rooms were bugged.
Russia was like that under the Tsar.
Russia was like that under the Soviets, with wider reach.
Russia is still like that under Putin.
Russia will Russia.
Moskovia delenda est.
On Fri, 16 Aug 2024, Lynn McGuire wrote:
On 8/16/2024 4:55 PM, William Hyde wrote:
Lynn McGuire wrote:
On 8/16/2024 1:26 PM, BCFD 36 wrote:
Awhile back, The Three Body Problem was mentioned. In that thread, there >>>>> was no mention of the current Netflix version. Was this mentioned
somewhere else and I just missed it? Google groups is of no help any >>>>> more.
I have just started the series and I am intrigued, so far. Just two >>>>> episodes. My wife is rather "meh" about it, but she said the same thing >>>>> about Star Trek 1 which in reality she HATED so I may be watching it >>>>> after she goes to bed.
----------------
Dave Scruggs
Senior Software Engineer - Lockheed Martin, et. al (mostly Retired)
Captain - Boulder Creek Fire (Retired)
Board of Directors - Boulder Creek Fire Protection District (What was I >>>>> thinking?)
I did not like the Netflix version, have yet to read the book.� Too much >>>> time spent on the China Cultural Revolution and their violence against the
educated.� Felt like a Children of the Corn mini series. I gave up after >>>> two episodes.
I've known several people whose lives were damaged by that event.� And
these were the lucky ones, who made it to the west.
One scientist I knew never got over it, especially the abuse suffered by >>> her mother.� One might have expected her father, an educated man who had >>> lived in the West and still had children living there to be as big a
target. But he was left alone, she said, because he was a renowned
gerontologist and� the Party leadership was getting older.
Another distinguished scientist told me he reached the last year of
secondary education only to realize that he'd learned absolutely nothing >>> owing to the constant meetings and demonstrations.� Ignoring his teachers, >>> he packed four years of school into one.� Judging by his subsequent career,
he kept up that level of effort for� the next few decades.
William Hyde
One of my Dad's mainland Chinese grad students from OU lived with us for a >> couple of years from 1973 to 1974 and worked for my Dad from 1973 to 1995. >> He came over to the USA in 1966 or 1967 and got a PhD in Chemical Engineering
from OU in 1973. I heard enough stories from him about growing on a farm in
China, living in a cave, starving all the time. If our family did not eat >> everything at supper then he would finish everything off. It took my mother
several months break him of that habit. But he never got fat. He never
mentioned anything about the Cultural Revolution but I suspect it was the >> reason why he left China.
He was incredibly smart, he would give me an algorithm and I would code it up
in Fortran 66 for him in a subroutine and give him the card deck. He was very
submissive, he would never look you in the face, would always look down. He
went back to mainland China in 1995 to help with his sister's export
business. Sadly, he soon had a heart attack and passed away. His sister was
kind enough to call my father and tell us.
I know several people in the USA who had to leave Iran when they had their >> cultural revolution. Mostly engineers working for USA companies like Dupont
in Iran. I've gotten a few stories from them, grim, very grim. One of my >> classmates at TAMU disappeared at the midyear of our junior year in 1980 when
the Iranian Embassy in the USA sent him a letter cutting off his funds and >> ordering him to come home. They also revoked his visa but President Reagan >> gave all those people green card status in 1981. He refused to go home to >> Iran since he was a nephew of the Shah, he figured that they would shoot him
the minute he stepped off the plane.
In other words, the various Cultural Revolutions are a little too real for me
and I do not enjoy reading about or viewing them.
Lynn
With this historical luggage I can never understand how people in europe
can insist on voting for socialists. Give them enough power and they tend
to repeat themselves. Just look at the socialist UK government now
cracking down on free speech. Very sad.
On 8/17/2024 4:51 AM, D wrote:
On Fri, 16 Aug 2024, Lynn McGuire wrote:
On 8/16/2024 4:55 PM, William Hyde wrote:
Lynn McGuire wrote:
On 8/16/2024 1:26 PM, BCFD 36 wrote:
Awhile back, The Three Body Problem was mentioned. In that thread, >>>>>> there was no mention of the current Netflix version. Was this
mentioned somewhere else and I just missed it? Google groups is of >>>>>> no help any more.
I have just started the series and I am intrigued, so far. Just two >>>>>> episodes. My wife is rather "meh" about it, but she said the same >>>>>> thing about Star Trek 1 which in reality she HATED so I may be
watching it after she goes to bed.
----------------
Dave Scruggs
Senior Software Engineer - Lockheed Martin, et. al (mostly Retired) >>>>>> Captain - Boulder Creek Fire (Retired)
Board of Directors - Boulder Creek Fire Protection District (What >>>>>> was I thinking?)
I did not like the Netflix version, have yet to read the book.� Too >>>>> much time spent on the China Cultural Revolution and their violence >>>>> against the educated.� Felt like a Children of the Corn mini
series.� I gave up after two episodes.
I've known several people whose lives were damaged by that event.
And these were the lucky ones, who made it to the west.
One scientist I knew never got over it, especially the abuse suffered >>>> by her mother.� One might have expected her father, an educated man
who had lived in the West and still had children living there to be
as big a target. But he was left alone, she said, because he was a
renowned gerontologist and� the Party leadership was getting older.
Another distinguished scientist told me he reached the last year of
secondary education only to realize that he'd learned absolutely
nothing owing to the constant meetings and demonstrations.� Ignoring
his teachers, he packed four years of school into one.� Judging by
his subsequent career, he kept up that level of effort for� the next
few decades.
William Hyde
One of my Dad's mainland Chinese grad students from OU lived with us
for a couple of years from 1973 to 1974 and worked for my Dad from
1973 to 1995. He came over to the USA in 1966 or 1967 and got a PhD in
Chemical Engineering from OU in 1973.� I heard enough stories from him
about growing on a farm in China, living in a cave, starving all the
time.� If our family did not eat everything at supper then he would
finish everything off.� It took my mother several months break him of
that habit.� But he never got fat.� He never mentioned anything about
the Cultural Revolution but I suspect it was the reason why he left
China.
He was incredibly smart, he would give me an algorithm and I would
code it up in Fortran 66 for him in a subroutine and give him the card
deck. He was very submissive, he would never look you in the face,
would always look down.� He went back to mainland China in 1995 to
help with his sister's export business.� Sadly, he soon had a heart
attack and passed away.� His sister was kind enough to call my father
and tell us.
I know several people in the USA who had to leave Iran when they had
their cultural revolution.� Mostly engineers working for USA companies
like Dupont in Iran.� I've gotten a few stories from them, grim, very
grim.� One of my classmates at TAMU disappeared at the midyear of our
junior year in 1980 when the Iranian Embassy in the USA sent him a
letter cutting off his funds and ordering him to come home.� They also
revoked his visa but President Reagan gave all those people green card
status in 1981.� He refused to go home to Iran since he was a nephew
of the Shah, he figured that they would shoot him the minute he
stepped off the plane.
In other words, the various Cultural Revolutions are a little too real
for me and I do not enjoy reading about or viewing them.
Lynn
With this historical luggage I can never understand how people in europe
can insist on voting for socialists. Give them enough power and they
tend to repeat themselves. Just look at the socialist UK government now
cracking down on free speech. Very sad.
Incredibly sad. And the Democrat candidate here in the USA is talking >freezing food prices and making grocery stores report any changes in
their prices, causing huge paperwork and never ending bureaucracies.
On Sat, 17 Aug 2024, Lynn McGuire wrote:
On 8/17/2024 4:51 AM, D wrote:
On Fri, 16 Aug 2024, Lynn McGuire wrote:
On 8/16/2024 4:55 PM, William Hyde wrote:
Lynn McGuire wrote:
On 8/16/2024 1:26 PM, BCFD 36 wrote:
Awhile back, The Three Body Problem was mentioned. In that thread, >>>>>>> there was no mention of the current Netflix version. Was this mentioned
somewhere else and I just missed it? Google groups is of no help any >>>>>>> more.
I have just started the series and I am intrigued, so far. Just two >>>>>>> episodes. My wife is rather "meh" about it, but she said the same thing
about Star Trek 1 which in reality she HATED so I may be watching it >>>>>>> after she goes to bed.
----------------
Dave Scruggs
Senior Software Engineer - Lockheed Martin, et. al (mostly Retired) >>>>>>> Captain - Boulder Creek Fire (Retired)
Board of Directors - Boulder Creek Fire Protection District (What was I
thinking?)
I did not like the Netflix version, have yet to read the book.� Too much
time spent on the China Cultural Revolution and their violence against >>>>>> the educated.� Felt like a Children of the Corn mini series.� I gave up >>>>>> after two episodes.
I've known several people whose lives were damaged by that event. And >>>>> these were the lucky ones, who made it to the west.
One scientist I knew never got over it, especially the abuse suffered by >>>>> her mother.� One might have expected her father, an educated man who had >>>>> lived in the West and still had children living there to be as big a >>>>> target. But he was left alone, she said, because he was a renowned
gerontologist and� the Party leadership was getting older.
Another distinguished scientist told me he reached the last year of >>>>> secondary education only to realize that he'd learned absolutely nothing >>>>> owing to the constant meetings and demonstrations.� Ignoring his
teachers, he packed four years of school into one.� Judging by his
subsequent career, he kept up that level of effort for� the next few >>>>> decades.
William Hyde
One of my Dad's mainland Chinese grad students from OU lived with us for a
couple of years from 1973 to 1974 and worked for my Dad from 1973 to 1995.
He came over to the USA in 1966 or 1967 and got a PhD in Chemical
Engineering from OU in 1973.� I heard enough stories from him about
growing on a farm in China, living in a cave, starving all the time.� If >>>> our family did not eat everything at supper then he would finish
everything off.� It took my mother several months break him of that
habit.� But he never got fat.� He never mentioned anything about the
Cultural Revolution but I suspect it was the reason why he left China. >>>>
He was incredibly smart, he would give me an algorithm and I would code it
up in Fortran 66 for him in a subroutine and give him the card deck. He >>>> was very submissive, he would never look you in the face, would always >>>> look down.� He went back to mainland China in 1995 to help with his
sister's export business.� Sadly, he soon had a heart attack and passed >>>> away.� His sister was kind enough to call my father and tell us.
I know several people in the USA who had to leave Iran when they had their
cultural revolution.� Mostly engineers working for USA companies like >>>> Dupont in Iran.� I've gotten a few stories from them, grim, very grim.� >>>> One of my classmates at TAMU disappeared at the midyear of our junior year
in 1980 when the Iranian Embassy in the USA sent him a letter cutting off >>>> his funds and ordering him to come home.� They also revoked his visa but >>>> President Reagan gave all those people green card status in 1981.� He >>>> refused to go home to Iran since he was a nephew of the Shah, he figured >>>> that they would shoot him the minute he stepped off the plane.
In other words, the various Cultural Revolutions are a little too real for
me and I do not enjoy reading about or viewing them.
Lynn
With this historical luggage I can never understand how people in europe >>> can insist on voting for socialists. Give them enough power and they tend >>> to repeat themselves. Just look at the socialist UK government now cracking
down on free speech. Very sad.
Incredibly sad. And the Democrat candidate here in the USA is talking
freezing food prices and making grocery stores report any changes in their >> prices, causing huge paperwork and never ending bureaucracies.
Lynn
What!?! Jesus Christ, do people never learn? When has freezing prices and >forcing markets under political control ever benefitted anyone except, >maybe, politicians?
Sounds like the US is up for a huge left torn in case Cackles wins. But >let's hope and pray that Trump wins. All else will be a huge disaster.
On Sat, 17 Aug 2024, Lynn McGuire wrote:
On 8/17/2024 4:51 AM, D wrote:
On Fri, 16 Aug 2024, Lynn McGuire wrote:
On 8/16/2024 4:55 PM, William Hyde wrote:
Lynn McGuire wrote:
On 8/16/2024 1:26 PM, BCFD 36 wrote:
Awhile back, The Three Body Problem was mentioned. In that
thread, there was no mention of the current Netflix version. Was >>>>>>> this mentioned somewhere else and I just missed it? Google groups >>>>>>> is of no help any more.
I have just started the series and I am intrigued, so far. Just
two episodes. My wife is rather "meh" about it, but she said the >>>>>>> same thing about Star Trek 1 which in reality she HATED so I may >>>>>>> be watching it after she goes to bed.
----------------
Dave Scruggs
Senior Software Engineer - Lockheed Martin, et. al (mostly Retired) >>>>>>> Captain - Boulder Creek Fire (Retired)
Board of Directors - Boulder Creek Fire Protection District (What >>>>>>> was I thinking?)
I did not like the Netflix version, have yet to read the book.
Too much time spent on the China Cultural Revolution and their
violence against the educated. Felt like a Children of the Corn
mini series. I gave up after two episodes.
I've known several people whose lives were damaged by that event.
And these were the lucky ones, who made it to the west.
One scientist I knew never got over it, especially the abuse
suffered by her mother. One might have expected her father, an
educated man who had lived in the West and still had children
living there to be as big a target. But he was left alone, she
said, because he was a renowned gerontologist and the Party
leadership was getting older.
Another distinguished scientist told me he reached the last year of
secondary education only to realize that he'd learned absolutely
nothing owing to the constant meetings and demonstrations.
Ignoring his teachers, he packed four years of school into one.
Judging by his subsequent career, he kept up that level of effort
for the next few decades.
William Hyde
One of my Dad's mainland Chinese grad students from OU lived with us
for a couple of years from 1973 to 1974 and worked for my Dad from
1973 to 1995. He came over to the USA in 1966 or 1967 and got a PhD
in Chemical Engineering from OU in 1973. I heard enough stories
from him about growing on a farm in China, living in a cave,
starving all the time. If our family did not eat everything at
supper then he would finish everything off. It took my mother
several months break him of that habit. But he never got fat. He
never mentioned anything about the Cultural Revolution but I suspect
it was the reason why he left China.
He was incredibly smart, he would give me an algorithm and I would
code it up in Fortran 66 for him in a subroutine and give him the
card deck. He was very submissive, he would never look you in the
face, would always look down. He went back to mainland China in
1995 to help with his sister's export business. Sadly, he soon had
a heart attack and passed away. His sister was kind enough to call
my father and tell us.
I know several people in the USA who had to leave Iran when they had
their cultural revolution. Mostly engineers working for USA
companies like Dupont in Iran. I've gotten a few stories from them,
grim, very grim. One of my classmates at TAMU disappeared at the
midyear of our junior year in 1980 when the Iranian Embassy in the
USA sent him a letter cutting off his funds and ordering him to come
home. They also revoked his visa but President Reagan gave all
those people green card status in 1981. He refused to go home to
Iran since he was a nephew of the Shah, he figured that they would
shoot him the minute he stepped off the plane.
In other words, the various Cultural Revolutions are a little too
real for me and I do not enjoy reading about or viewing them.
Lynn
With this historical luggage I can never understand how people in
europe can insist on voting for socialists. Give them enough power
and they tend to repeat themselves. Just look at the socialist UK
government now cracking down on free speech. Very sad.
Very popular with people spending most of their wages or stipends on eating, shelter and utilities.
Incredibly sad. And the Democrat candidate here in the USA is talking
freezing food prices and making grocery stores report any changes in
their prices, causing huge paperwork and never ending bureaucracies.
Lynn
What!?! Jesus Christ, do people never learn? When has freezing prices
and forcing markets under political control ever benefitted anyone
except, maybe, politicians?
Sounds like the US is up for a huge left torn in case Cackles wins. But
let's hope and pray that Trump wins. All else will be a huge disaster.
On Sat, 17 Aug 2024 13:42:46 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Incredibly sad. And the Democrat candidate here in the USA is talking >>freezing food prices and making grocery stores report any changes in
their prices, causing huge paperwork and never ending bureaucracies.
The presumed Democratic candidate for President (she won't be the
candidate until the convention chooses her) appears to be talking
about artificially raising prices and keeping them raised far longer
than the economic situation requires. And I don't want to see a quote
from 5 years ago on the topic; people's ideas change over time.
I suspect you have happened on a Putin/Trump Talking Point and have
swallowed it whole. Surely by now you realize that these things are
useful only as projections onto the Dems of what Trump (and so the Republicans, as long as they do not disavow him and all his works and
all his ways) would like to do. Which is fine in itself -- it's always helpful to know what the other guys are planning.
On Sat, 17 Aug 2024 21:52:07 +0200, D <[email protected]> wrote:
On Sat, 17 Aug 2024, Lynn McGuire wrote:
On 8/17/2024 4:51 AM, D wrote:
On Fri, 16 Aug 2024, Lynn McGuire wrote:
On 8/16/2024 4:55 PM, William Hyde wrote:
Lynn McGuire wrote:
On 8/16/2024 1:26 PM, BCFD 36 wrote:
Awhile back, The Three Body Problem was mentioned. In that thread, >>>>>>>> there was no mention of the current Netflix version. Was this mentioned
somewhere else and I just missed it? Google groups is of no help any >>>>>>>> more.
I have just started the series and I am intrigued, so far. Just two >>>>>>>> episodes. My wife is rather "meh" about it, but she said the same thing
about Star Trek 1 which in reality she HATED so I may be watching it >>>>>>>> after she goes to bed.
----------------
Dave Scruggs
Senior Software Engineer - Lockheed Martin, et. al (mostly Retired) >>>>>>>> Captain - Boulder Creek Fire (Retired)
Board of Directors - Boulder Creek Fire Protection District (What was I
thinking?)
I did not like the Netflix version, have yet to read the book.� Too much
time spent on the China Cultural Revolution and their violence against >>>>>>> the educated.� Felt like a Children of the Corn mini series.� I gave up >>>>>>> after two episodes.
I've known several people whose lives were damaged by that event. And >>>>>> these were the lucky ones, who made it to the west.
One scientist I knew never got over it, especially the abuse suffered by >>>>>> her mother.� One might have expected her father, an educated man who had >>>>>> lived in the West and still had children living there to be as big a >>>>>> target. But he was left alone, she said, because he was a renowned >>>>>> gerontologist and� the Party leadership was getting older.
Another distinguished scientist told me he reached the last year of >>>>>> secondary education only to realize that he'd learned absolutely nothing >>>>>> owing to the constant meetings and demonstrations.� Ignoring his
teachers, he packed four years of school into one.� Judging by his >>>>>> subsequent career, he kept up that level of effort for� the next few >>>>>> decades.
William Hyde
One of my Dad's mainland Chinese grad students from OU lived with us for a
couple of years from 1973 to 1974 and worked for my Dad from 1973 to 1995.
He came over to the USA in 1966 or 1967 and got a PhD in Chemical
Engineering from OU in 1973.� I heard enough stories from him about
growing on a farm in China, living in a cave, starving all the time.� If >>>>> our family did not eat everything at supper then he would finish
everything off.� It took my mother several months break him of that
habit.� But he never got fat.� He never mentioned anything about the >>>>> Cultural Revolution but I suspect it was the reason why he left China. >>>>>
He was incredibly smart, he would give me an algorithm and I would code it
up in Fortran 66 for him in a subroutine and give him the card deck. He >>>>> was very submissive, he would never look you in the face, would always >>>>> look down.� He went back to mainland China in 1995 to help with his
sister's export business.� Sadly, he soon had a heart attack and passed >>>>> away.� His sister was kind enough to call my father and tell us.
I know several people in the USA who had to leave Iran when they had their
cultural revolution.� Mostly engineers working for USA companies like >>>>> Dupont in Iran.� I've gotten a few stories from them, grim, very grim.� >>>>> One of my classmates at TAMU disappeared at the midyear of our junior year
in 1980 when the Iranian Embassy in the USA sent him a letter cutting off >>>>> his funds and ordering him to come home.� They also revoked his visa but >>>>> President Reagan gave all those people green card status in 1981.� He >>>>> refused to go home to Iran since he was a nephew of the Shah, he figured >>>>> that they would shoot him the minute he stepped off the plane.
In other words, the various Cultural Revolutions are a little too real for
me and I do not enjoy reading about or viewing them.
Lynn
With this historical luggage I can never understand how people in europe >>>> can insist on voting for socialists. Give them enough power and they tend >>>> to repeat themselves. Just look at the socialist UK government now cracking
down on free speech. Very sad.
Incredibly sad. And the Democrat candidate here in the USA is talking
freezing food prices and making grocery stores report any changes in their >>> prices, causing huge paperwork and never ending bureaucracies.
Lynn
What!?! Jesus Christ, do people never learn? When has freezing prices and
forcing markets under political control ever benefitted anyone except,
maybe, politicians?
Sounds like the US is up for a huge left torn in case Cackles wins. But
let's hope and pray that Trump wins. All else will be a huge disaster.
Still getting our Putin/Trump Talking Points from wherever, I see.
I suggest getting a grip and consider Trump's telling his Christian
voters that this November is the last time they will ever need to
vote. Political nonsense, at best.
With this historical luggage I can never understand how people in europe
can insist on voting for socialists. Give them enough power and they tend
to repeat themselves. Just look at the socialist UK government now
cracking down on free speech. Very sad.
First, the UK has a different view of free speech than the USA.
/Their/ gummint can prohibit stories from running in newspapers at
all; ours can not, at least not before they have been published.
Second, they appear to be talking about holding people responsible for
the consequences of their actions. Starting a riot or crying "Fire!"
in a theater had /always/ been punishable speech. Just because they
are doing it online may make it harder to prove (depending on how the
law is written), but not impossible, and certainly not make it
unreasonable to try.
I should also point out that their ability to have US citizens
extradicted will depend on how the relevant treaty is written and the relevant process. If this requires the crime charged to be a crime in
this country, then things may get a bit ... sticky. Consider the LA prosecutor's attempt to have Roman Polanski from Switzerland [1]: it
failed because the Swiss concluded that he had been sentenced and had
served his sentence and so there was no meat in the LA's hamburger.
[1] This occurred during the Great Recession. Given the reduced tax
income of those times, I have been known, from time to time, to wonder
how many rapists and murderers were /not/ prosecuted because the money
needed was spent on their "get Polanski" obsession.
How about a quote from 4 days ago? >https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2024/08/15/kamala-harris-price-gouging-groceries/
In a news release Wednesday, her campaign said the first 100 days
of her presidency would include the “first-ever federal ban on
price gouging on food and groceries — setting clear rules of the
road to make clear that big corporations can’t unfairly exploit
consumers to run up excessive corporate profits on food and
groceries.”
We know so little about Harris's policies; this is not a good first policy!
On 8/18/2024 11:19 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
On Sat, 17 Aug 2024 13:42:46 -0500, Lynn McGuire
<[email protected]> wrote:
On 8/17/2024 4:51 AM, D wrote:
On Fri, 16 Aug 2024, Lynn McGuire wrote:
On 8/16/2024 4:55 PM, William Hyde wrote:
Lynn McGuire wrote:
On 8/16/2024 1:26 PM, BCFD 36 wrote:
Awhile back, The Three Body Problem was mentioned. In that thread, >>>>>>>> there was no mention of the current Netflix version. Was this
mentioned somewhere else and I just missed it? Google groups is of >>>>>>>> no help any more.
I have just started the series and I am intrigued, so far. Just two >>>>>>>> episodes. My wife is rather "meh" about it, but she said the same >>>>>>>> thing about Star Trek 1 which in reality she HATED so I may be >>>>>>>> watching it after she goes to bed.
----------------
Dave Scruggs
Senior Software Engineer - Lockheed Martin, et. al (mostly Retired) >>>>>>>> Captain - Boulder Creek Fire (Retired)
Board of Directors - Boulder Creek Fire Protection District (What >>>>>>>> was I thinking?)
I did not like the Netflix version, have yet to read the book. Too >>>>>>> much time spent on the China Cultural Revolution and their violence >>>>>>> against the educated. Felt like a Children of the Corn mini
series. I gave up after two episodes.
I've known several people whose lives were damaged by that event.
And these were the lucky ones, who made it to the west.
One scientist I knew never got over it, especially the abuse suffered >>>>>> by her mother. One might have expected her father, an educated man >>>>>> who had lived in the West and still had children living there to be >>>>>> as big a target. But he was left alone, she said, because he was a >>>>>> renowned gerontologist and the Party leadership was getting older. >>>>>>
Another distinguished scientist told me he reached the last year of >>>>>> secondary education only to realize that he'd learned absolutely
nothing owing to the constant meetings and demonstrations. Ignoring >>>>>> his teachers, he packed four years of school into one. Judging by >>>>>> his subsequent career, he kept up that level of effort for the next >>>>>> few decades.
William Hyde
One of my Dad's mainland Chinese grad students from OU lived with us >>>>> for a couple of years from 1973 to 1974 and worked for my Dad from
1973 to 1995. He came over to the USA in 1966 or 1967 and got a PhD in >>>>> Chemical Engineering from OU in 1973. I heard enough stories from him >>>>> about growing on a farm in China, living in a cave, starving all the >>>>> time. If our family did not eat everything at supper then he would >>>>> finish everything off. It took my mother several months break him of >>>>> that habit. But he never got fat. He never mentioned anything about >>>>> the Cultural Revolution but I suspect it was the reason why he left
China.
He was incredibly smart, he would give me an algorithm and I would
code it up in Fortran 66 for him in a subroutine and give him the card >>>>> deck. He was very submissive, he would never look you in the face,
would always look down. He went back to mainland China in 1995 to
help with his sister's export business. Sadly, he soon had a heart >>>>> attack and passed away. His sister was kind enough to call my father >>>>> and tell us.
I know several people in the USA who had to leave Iran when they had >>>>> their cultural revolution. Mostly engineers working for USA companies >>>>> like Dupont in Iran. I've gotten a few stories from them, grim, very >>>>> grim. One of my classmates at TAMU disappeared at the midyear of our >>>>> junior year in 1980 when the Iranian Embassy in the USA sent him a
letter cutting off his funds and ordering him to come home. They also >>>>> revoked his visa but President Reagan gave all those people green card >>>>> status in 1981. He refused to go home to Iran since he was a nephew >>>>> of the Shah, he figured that they would shoot him the minute he
stepped off the plane.
In other words, the various Cultural Revolutions are a little too real >>>>> for me and I do not enjoy reading about or viewing them.
Lynn
With this historical luggage I can never understand how people in europe >>>> can insist on voting for socialists. Give them enough power and they
tend to repeat themselves. Just look at the socialist UK government now >>>> cracking down on free speech. Very sad.
Incredibly sad. And the Democrat candidate here in the USA is talking
freezing food prices and making grocery stores report any changes in
their prices, causing huge paperwork and never ending bureaucracies.
The presumed Democratic candidate for President (she won't be the
candidate until the convention chooses her) appears to be talking
about artificially raising prices and keeping them raised far longer
than the economic situation requires. And I don't want to see a quote
from 5 years ago on the topic; people's ideas change over time.
I suspect you have happened on a Putin/Trump Talking Point and have
swallowed it whole. Surely by now you realize that these things are
useful only as projections onto the Dems of what Trump (and so the
Republicans, as long as they do not disavow him and all his works and
all his ways) would like to do. Which is fine in itself -- it's always
helpful to know what the other guys are planning.
Please do not lie about me. This Aug 16, 2024 speech by Kamala Harris on Price Fixing is on CNN: https://www.cnn.com/2024/08/16/business/harris-price-gouging-ban-inflation/index.html
"New York CNN — Food prices have surged by more than 20% under the Biden-Harris administration, leaving many voters eager to stretch their dollars further at the grocery store."
"On Friday, Vice President Kamala Harris said she has a solution: a federal ban on price gouging across the food industry."
Lynn
Chris Buckley <[email protected]> wrote:
How about a quote from 4 days ago? >>https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2024/08/15/kamala-harris-price-gouging-groceries/
In a news release Wednesday, her campaign said the first 100 days
of her presidency would include the “first-ever federal ban on
price gouging on food and groceries — setting clear rules of the
road to make clear that big corporations can’t unfairly exploit
consumers to run up excessive corporate profits on food and
groceries.”
We know so little about Harris's policies; this is not a good first policy!
There is very clear price gouging on retail food in poor neighborhoods, and it's a direct consequence of not having any competition in the market. Go into a dollar store and check what things actually cost relative to the grocery store in a rich neighborhood. A price ban won't fix this problem, although there might be another government-lead solution possible.
BUT.... honestly food in the US is incredibly cheap. Far cheaper than it
was back in the sixties, and much cheaper than it is in Europe. We grow (dented) corn so cheaply that Mexico wants to put up protective tariffs,
and when you can do something more cheaply than Mexico that's impressive. Admittedly overall food quality here is poor, but I don't see bringing
food prices in America down as a useful activity. Now, if you bring
down housing costs or medical bills, THAT might be useful.
--scott
On 2024-08-18, Scott Dorsey <[email protected]> wrote:
Chris Buckley <[email protected]> wrote:
How about a quote from 4 days ago?There is very clear price gouging on retail food in poor neighborhoods, and >> it's a direct consequence of not having any competition in the market. Go >> into a dollar store and check what things actually cost relative to the
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2024/08/15/kamala-harris-price-gouging-groceries/
In a news release Wednesday, her campaign said the first 100 days
of her presidency would include the “first-ever federal ban on
price gouging on food and groceries — setting clear rules of the
road to make clear that big corporations can’t unfairly exploit
consumers to run up excessive corporate profits on food and
groceries.”
We know so little about Harris's policies; this is not a good first policy! >>
grocery store in a rich neighborhood. A price ban won't fix this problem, >> although there might be another government-lead solution possible.
BUT.... honestly food in the US is incredibly cheap. Far cheaper than it
was back in the sixties, and much cheaper than it is in Europe. We grow
(dented) corn so cheaply that Mexico wants to put up protective tariffs,
and when you can do something more cheaply than Mexico that's impressive.
Admittedly overall food quality here is poor, but I don't see bringing
food prices in America down as a useful activity. Now, if you bring
down housing costs or medical bills, THAT might be useful.
--scott
Yes, retail food prices in poor neighborhoods are much higher than in
rich suburbs. But it's clearly not price gouging, but the cost of
doing business in an urban, poor area. If it was only lack of competition, you'd have supermarket chains fighting each other to open stores in
those areas. But instead you have cities desperately trying to keep
the supermarkets they have open, and offering deals to get supermarkets
to consider opening a new one. The existing supermarkets aren't making
enough money.
A few years back, I watched DC trying to woo Walmart to open a large
store (including supermarket) in an under-served area. It took many
years of negotiations, rule-changing, and property tax breaks to
finally get an agreement. It wasn't easy. It never opened - the next
city council came in and passed a law saying any extremely large
retail company (basically just Walmart) must pay a minimum wage of $5/hour over the current minimum wage. Walmart said they had no chance of
making money, broke their leases, and left.
The extra cost of urban business is not only the obvious costs of land
cost, security/shoplifting, and property tax, but things like just
getting the food from warehouses to the store! As you say, the
overall American cost of food is actually low now, partly because the industry has solved the supply chain to the store issues, at least for
large suburban stores. My supermarket can handle at least a dozen delivery trucks at once, perhaps half of them 18-wheelers. You can't do that kind of traffic in an urban environment serving pedestrian customers.
I don't know how to reduce the cost of urban supermarkets other than
directly giving subsidies. But any attempts to legislate the price of groceries in those urban markets is going to make things worse.
On 2024-08-18, Scott Dorsey <[email protected]> wrote:
Chris Buckley <[email protected]> wrote:
How about a quote from 4 days ago?There is very clear price gouging on retail food in poor neighborhoods, and >> it's a direct consequence of not having any competition in the market. Go >> into a dollar store and check what things actually cost relative to the
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2024/08/15/kamala-harris-price-gouging-groceries/
In a news release Wednesday, her campaign said the first 100 days
of her presidency would include the “first-ever federal ban on
price gouging on food and groceries — setting clear rules of the
road to make clear that big corporations can’t unfairly exploit
consumers to run up excessive corporate profits on food and
groceries.”
We know so little about Harris's policies; this is not a good first policy! >>
grocery store in a rich neighborhood. A price ban won't fix this problem, >> although there might be another government-lead solution possible.
BUT.... honestly food in the US is incredibly cheap. Far cheaper than it
was back in the sixties, and much cheaper than it is in Europe. We grow
(dented) corn so cheaply that Mexico wants to put up protective tariffs,
and when you can do something more cheaply than Mexico that's impressive.
Admittedly overall food quality here is poor, but I don't see bringing
food prices in America down as a useful activity. Now, if you bring
down housing costs or medical bills, THAT might be useful.
--scott
Yes, retail food prices in poor neighborhoods are much higher than in
rich suburbs. But it's clearly not price gouging, but the cost of
doing business in an urban, poor area. If it was only lack of competition, you'd have supermarket chains fighting each other to open stores in
those areas. But instead you have cities desperately trying to keep
the supermarkets they have open, and offering deals to get supermarkets
to consider opening a new one. The existing supermarkets aren't making
enough money.
A few years back, I watched DC trying to woo Walmart to open a large
store (including supermarket) in an under-served area. It took many
years of negotiations, rule-changing, and property tax breaks to
finally get an agreement. It wasn't easy. It never opened - the next
city council came in and passed a law saying any extremely large
retail company (basically just Walmart) must pay a minimum wage of $5/hour over the current minimum wage. Walmart said they had no chance of
making money, broke their leases, and left.
The extra cost of urban business is not only the obvious costs of land
cost, security/shoplifting, and property tax, but things like just
getting the food from warehouses to the store! As you say, the
overall American cost of food is actually low now, partly because the industry has solved the supply chain to the store issues, at least for
large suburban stores. My supermarket can handle at least a dozen delivery trucks at once, perhaps half of them 18-wheelers. You can't do that kind of traffic in an urban environment serving pedestrian customers.
I don't know how to reduce the cost of urban supermarkets other than
directly giving subsidies. But any attempts to legislate the price of groceries in those urban markets is going to make things worse.
Chris
A Trump victory is what would be a huge disaster.
He denies the science of global warming; he interfered with states
taking
necessary public health measures against COVID-19, and he spewed lies
about
a stolen election that contributed to the January 6 insurrection.
in world food prices. Apparently people haven't noticed Russia invading Ukraine... which, of course, is another _big_ reason why a Trump win
would be a disaster for the whole world.
Kamala Harris should indeed stay away from policies that will be
perceived
in the U.S. as wild-eyed socialism. Particularly when indeed there is no
need for them.
On Sun, 18 Aug 2024 16:21:26 +0000, Paul S Person wrote:
On Sat, 17 Aug 2024 21:52:07 +0200, D <[email protected]> wrote:
What!?! Jesus Christ, do people never learn? When has freezing prices and >>>forcing markets under political control ever benefitted anyone except, >>>maybe, politicians?
Sounds like the US is up for a huge left torn in case Cackles wins. But >>>let's hope and pray that Trump wins. All else will be a huge disaster.
A Trump victory is what would be a huge disaster.
He denies the science of global warming; he interfered with states
taking
necessary public health measures against COVID-19, and he spewed lies
about
a stolen election that contributed to the January 6 insurrection.
However, while grocery price-gouging makes a nice scapegoat... in
Canada,
we have a movement to boycott Loblaws, as if it's to blame for the rise
in world food prices. Apparently people haven't noticed Russia invading >Ukraine... which, of course, is another _big_ reason why a Trump win
would be a disaster for the whole world.
Kamala Harris should indeed stay away from policies that will be
perceived
in the U.S. as wild-eyed socialism. Particularly when indeed there is no
need for them.
Still getting our Putin/Trump Talking Points from wherever, I see.
I suggest getting a grip and consider Trump's telling his Christian
voters that this November is the last time they will ever need to
vote. Political nonsense, at best.
At least this particular remark wasn't promising a one-party
dictatorship.
He was merely stating that he would shift what was normal so that >evangelicals
wouldn't feel pressure to vote, since America would be back where it was
in the
1950s, so neither party would pursue policies they found threatening.
Nonsense, yes. Moving the needle of what is considered 'normal' is not
done in
a single Presidential term.
On Mon, 19 Aug 2024, quadibloc wrote:
A Trump victory is what would be a huge disaster.
Actually anf factually, this is incorrect.
He denies the science of global warming; he interfered with states
taking
Good man! Eco-fascism is just a mind virus to make the public give over
all power to politicians. I bet we are still alive in 20 years time,
care to take the bet?
Also note how all politicians travel with private jets, and do their
best to kill nuclear with too many laws. That proves that they don't
even believe it themselves.
necessary public health measures against COVID-19, and he spewed lies
The best policy for corona was to do nothing. Sweden proved that. And
yes, I was there on the ground, yes, here and there some idiots masked,
but overall I could live my life fairly freely until towards the end
when they started to f*ck with business.
about
a stolen election that contributed to the January 6 insurrection.
There was no insurrection and Trump certainly did not take part. In fact
he tried to calm things done. What is a scadal is the lawfare where the >democrats are weaponizing the state to try and block him from winning.
That, if anything, should be the basis of a legal process and prison for >Sleepy Joe and Cackles.
in world food prices. Apparently people haven't noticed Russia invading
Ukraine... which, of course, is another _big_ reason why a Trump win
would be a disaster for the whole world.
The US should not fix the mess of europe. It's europes own mess to fix. >Paradoxically, the US pulling out (which is their right, it is not fair
that the US tax payer should prop up europe) will be the best thing that
ever happened to europe. It will make it more unified, and make it grow
up and fix its own problems. So the EU will become a self-reliant
partner, better able to assist the US in the future.
Having US come in at the last minute saving the world again, would of
course be great, if I were to think as an egoistic european tax payer,
but we must realize the it is nothing but egoism to want the US to foot
EU:s bills.
Kamala Harris should indeed stay away from policies that will be
perceived
in the U.S. as wild-eyed socialism. Particularly when indeed there is no
need for them.
Not only that, she should stay away from politics. As a woman she is
less fit for presidency than a man due to biological reasons. Also note
that Trump will keep world peace, and that Putin attacked due to Sleepy
Joe. Trump knows how to handle bullies, Putin will walk all over
Cackles.
On Sun, 18 Aug 2024, Lynn McGuire wrote:
On 8/18/2024 11:19 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
On Sat, 17 Aug 2024 13:42:46 -0500, Lynn McGuire
<[email protected]> wrote:
Incredibly sad. And the Democrat candidate here in the USA is talking >>>> freezing food prices and making grocery stores report any changes in
their prices, causing huge paperwork and never ending bureaucracies.
The presumed Democratic candidate for President (she won't be the
candidate until the convention chooses her) appears to be talking
about artificially raising prices and keeping them raised far longer
than the economic situation requires. And I don't want to see a quote
from 5 years ago on the topic; people's ideas change over time.
I suspect you have happened on a Putin/Trump Talking Point and have
swallowed it whole. Surely by now you realize that these things are
useful only as projections onto the Dems of what Trump (and so the
Republicans, as long as they do not disavow him and all his works and
all his ways) would like to do. Which is fine in itself -- it's always
helpful to know what the other guys are planning.
Please do not lie about me. This Aug 16, 2024 speech by Kamala Harris on >> Price Fixing is on CNN:
https://www.cnn.com/2024/08/16/business/harris-price-gouging-ban-inflation/index.html
"New York CNN � Food prices have surged by more than 20% under the
Biden-Harris administration, leaving many voters eager to stretch their
dollars further at the grocery store."
"On Friday, Vice President Kamala Harris said she has a solution: a federal >> ban on price gouging across the food industry."
Lynn
Sorry Paul, it's there black on white. Let me give you an example of what >can happen when the government fixes prices. When I was young, the
socialist state of sweden I was living in had one phone company. During me >BBS intense youth that could lead to phone bills in the 100s of dollars.
The socialists were proud of their government monopoly. Oh, and note that
in the beginning only the governmetn approved phone was allowed, so no >choice for you.
On 2024-08-18, Paul S Person <[email protected]d> wrote:
On Sat, 17 Aug 2024 13:42:46 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Incredibly sad. And the Democrat candidate here in the USA is talking >>>freezing food prices and making grocery stores report any changes in >>>their prices, causing huge paperwork and never ending bureaucracies.
The presumed Democratic candidate for President (she won't be the
candidate until the convention chooses her) appears to be talking
about artificially raising prices and keeping them raised far longer
than the economic situation requires. And I don't want to see a quote
from 5 years ago on the topic; people's ideas change over time.
I suspect you have happened on a Putin/Trump Talking Point and have
swallowed it whole. Surely by now you realize that these things are
useful only as projections onto the Dems of what Trump (and so the
Republicans, as long as they do not disavow him and all his works and
all his ways) would like to do. Which is fine in itself -- it's always
helpful to know what the other guys are planning.
How about a quote from 4 days ago? >https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2024/08/15/kamala-harris-price-gouging-groceries/
In a news release Wednesday, her campaign said the first 100 days
of her presidency would include the �first-ever federal ban on
price gouging on food and groceries � setting clear rules of the
road to make clear that big corporations can�t unfairly exploit
consumers to run up excessive corporate profits on food and
groceries.�
We know so little about Harris's policies; this is not a good first policy!
On 8/17/24 12:52, D wrote:
On Sat, 17 Aug 2024, Lynn McGuire wrote:
On 8/17/2024 4:51 AM, D wrote:
On Fri, 16 Aug 2024, Lynn McGuire wrote:
On 8/16/2024 4:55 PM, William Hyde wrote:
Lynn McGuire wrote:
On 8/16/2024 1:26 PM, BCFD 36 wrote:
Awhile back, The Three Body Problem was mentioned. In that
thread, there was no mention of the current Netflix version. Was >>>>>>>> this mentioned somewhere else and I just missed it? Google groups >>>>>>>> is of no help any more.
I have just started the series and I am intrigued, so far. Just >>>>>>>> two episodes. My wife is rather "meh" about it, but she said the >>>>>>>> same thing about Star Trek 1 which in reality she HATED so I may >>>>>>>> be watching it after she goes to bed.
----------------
Dave Scruggs
Senior Software Engineer - Lockheed Martin, et. al (mostly Retired) >>>>>>>> Captain - Boulder Creek Fire (Retired)
Board of Directors - Boulder Creek Fire Protection District (What >>>>>>>> was I thinking?)
I did not like the Netflix version, have yet to read the book. >>>>>>> Too much time spent on the China Cultural Revolution and their
violence against the educated.� Felt like a Children of the Corn >>>>>>> mini series.� I gave up after two episodes.
I've known several people whose lives were damaged by that event. >>>>>> And these were the lucky ones, who made it to the west.
One scientist I knew never got over it, especially the abuse
suffered by her mother.� One might have expected her father, an
educated man who had lived in the West and still had children
living there to be as big a target. But he was left alone, she
said, because he was a renowned gerontologist and� the Party
leadership was getting older.
Another distinguished scientist told me he reached the last year of >>>>>> secondary education only to realize that he'd learned absolutely
nothing owing to the constant meetings and demonstrations.
Ignoring his teachers, he packed four years of school into one.
Judging by his subsequent career, he kept up that level of effort >>>>>> for� the next few decades.
William Hyde
One of my Dad's mainland Chinese grad students from OU lived with us >>>>> for a couple of years from 1973 to 1974 and worked for my Dad from
1973 to 1995. He came over to the USA in 1966 or 1967 and got a PhD >>>>> in Chemical Engineering from OU in 1973.� I heard enough stories
from him about growing on a farm in China, living in a cave,
starving all the time.� If our family did not eat everything at
supper then he would finish everything off.� It took my mother
several months break him of that habit.� But he never got fat.� He
never mentioned anything about the Cultural Revolution but I suspect >>>>> it was the reason why he left China.
He was incredibly smart, he would give me an algorithm and I would
code it up in Fortran 66 for him in a subroutine and give him the
card deck. He was very submissive, he would never look you in the
face, would always look down.� He went back to mainland China in
1995 to help with his sister's export business.� Sadly, he soon had >>>>> a heart attack and passed away.� His sister was kind enough to call >>>>> my father and tell us.
I know several people in the USA who had to leave Iran when they had >>>>> their cultural revolution.� Mostly engineers working for USA
companies like Dupont in Iran.� I've gotten a few stories from them, >>>>> grim, very grim. One of my classmates at TAMU disappeared at the
midyear of our junior year in 1980 when the Iranian Embassy in the
USA sent him a letter cutting off his funds and ordering him to come >>>>> home.� They also revoked his visa but President Reagan gave all
those people green card status in 1981.� He refused to go home to
Iran since he was a nephew of the Shah, he figured that they would
shoot him the minute he stepped off the plane.
In other words, the various Cultural Revolutions are a little too
real for me and I do not enjoy reading about or viewing them.
Lynn
With this historical luggage I can never understand how people in
europe can insist on voting for socialists. Give them enough power
and they tend to repeat themselves. Just look at the socialist UK
government now cracking down on free speech. Very sad.
The UK as someone points out does not have written guarantes
of Freedom of Speech as we do in the USA. The German government
specifically outlaws discussion of the benefits of the Hitler Years.
But that has not kept their own Fascist movement worshipping Hitler
to re-emerge.
There are socialist and Socialists and Marxist-Leninist as well
as Outright Fascists. Socialists with a small s run the US Military
forces. The Military is supposed to support and defend the Constitution
and they remain under the control of the elected Civilians sf the
Federal Government. Socialists with Capital S are seldom elected in
the USA but we have Bernie Sanders, who points out that he is a
Democratic Socialist i.e. he believes in voting for a Representative >government.
Fascists want the Industrial forces on their side and want
the people controlled, as do Marxist-Leninist parties except they
want the State which is claimed to represent the people to control
the means of production. So the primary means of production is
the ability of women to give birth to new humans and they want to
get as many humans as possible so restrict abortions.
In Communist China this control over births was used to
lower the population with unforeseen results result in modification
of the 1 child per family rule.
In Germany under Hitler, in Russia under Communism and now
under Putin, as well as China since the Communist drove the Nationalist
out as well as some smaller nations we have totalitarian Governments
which try to control the people in pursuit of Government set goals.
In ancient Rome and Greece as well a later states a fear of
Democracy developed calling it Mob-rule. Well they did not have
constitution but autocratic rule and the curious matter is that
they feared the mob voting itself benefits. Aristocratic Republics >eventually fell to the most powerful creating empires.
However in the USA today we have the most powerful economically
buying our elected representatives who vote them benefits greater than
any democratic government envisioned hand to the people of the USA.
Very popular with people spending most of their wages or stipends on
Incredibly sad.� And the Democrat candidate here in the USA is talking
freezing food prices and making grocery stores report any changes in
their prices, causing huge paperwork and never ending bureaucracies.
Lynn
eating, shelter and utilities.
What!?! Jesus Christ, do people never learn? When has freezing prices
and forcing markets under political control ever benefitted anyone
except, maybe, politicians?
WW II in the USA we suffered wage and price controls and beat
the hell out of the Germans. We also suffered food rationing and no
one died of that. We were a Totalitarian state and the pacifists
suffered but we only had Radio and Newspapers as a source of information
and apart from Columnists who hated the Roosevelts not much variation
in the War messages thrown at people. Those wartime cartoons targeting
the German Reich and the Japanese Imperial Armies were embarrassing by
the 1960s but guess what the Germans and the Japanese were treated
to the same demonizatins of the USA, UK, Netherlands, France and of
course the Portuguese all of whom had oppressed the people of the
Asia.
Sounds like the US is up for a huge left torn in case Cackles wins. But
let's hope and pray that Trump wins. All else will be a huge disaster.
A Trumps win would be a great disaster for poorer Americans, Europe and
Australian, Japan, Taiwan and the semi-democratic nations of
Asia. He knows nothing about the way the economy operates and thinks
Tariffs are good for the USA which they are not. Tariffs are good
for monied interests giving them carte blanche to charge as much
for their goods, imported or locally produced as the market will
bear. He thinks well of the most notorious autocrats like Putin
and Xi.
A left turn towards the Center and away from the Corporate Control that
had left millions unemployed and poorly fed at high
prices. Biden helped start policies that helped and Kamala Harris
and Tim Walz may help to continue that turn until we are on the
track of FDR and Elanor, Truman and Eisenhower. Even tricky Dick
Nixon thought of giving the people an guaranteed income.
I doubt very much that any billionaires will have to sell
their multiple homes or any of their luxurious Yachts unless
Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren are ever appointed or
Elected to positions of such power. The accumulation of wealth
by billionaires is usually quite bad for the economy as the
circulation of the money supply is supposed to be best for
the economy but the wealth of multi-Billionaires represents in
plain terms, Constipation of the money supply and the economy.
On Mon, 19 Aug 2024 10:06:54 +0200, D <[email protected]> wrote:
On Mon, 19 Aug 2024, quadibloc wrote:
A Trump victory is what would be a huge disaster.
Actually anf factually, this is incorrect.
He denies the science of global warming; he interfered with states
taking
Good man! Eco-fascism is just a mind virus to make the public give over
all power to politicians. I bet we are still alive in 20 years time,
care to take the bet?
Also note how all politicians travel with private jets, and do their
best to kill nuclear with too many laws. That proves that they don't
even believe it themselves.
necessary public health measures against COVID-19, and he spewed lies
The best policy for corona was to do nothing. Sweden proved that. And
yes, I was there on the ground, yes, here and there some idiots masked,
but overall I could live my life fairly freely until towards the end
when they started to f*ck with business.
about
a stolen election that contributed to the January 6 insurrection.
There was no insurrection and Trump certainly did not take part. In fact
he tried to calm things done. What is a scadal is the lawfare where the
democrats are weaponizing the state to try and block him from winning.
That, if anything, should be the basis of a legal process and prison for
Sleepy Joe and Cackles.
in world food prices. Apparently people haven't noticed Russia invading
Ukraine... which, of course, is another _big_ reason why a Trump win
would be a disaster for the whole world.
The US should not fix the mess of europe. It's europes own mess to fix.
Paradoxically, the US pulling out (which is their right, it is not fair
that the US tax payer should prop up europe) will be the best thing that
ever happened to europe. It will make it more unified, and make it grow
up and fix its own problems. So the EU will become a self-reliant
partner, better able to assist the US in the future.
Having US come in at the last minute saving the world again, would of
course be great, if I were to think as an egoistic european tax payer,
but we must realize the it is nothing but egoism to want the US to foot
EU:s bills.
Kamala Harris should indeed stay away from policies that will be
perceived
in the U.S. as wild-eyed socialism. Particularly when indeed there is no >>> need for them.
Not only that, she should stay away from politics. As a woman she is
less fit for presidency than a man due to biological reasons. Also note
that Trump will keep world peace, and that Putin attacked due to Sleepy
Joe. Trump knows how to handle bullies, Putin will walk all over
Cackles.
You /really/ need to get connected to reality.
On Mon, 19 Aug 2024 00:00:02 +0200, D <[email protected]> wrote:
On Sun, 18 Aug 2024, Lynn McGuire wrote:
On 8/18/2024 11:19 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
On Sat, 17 Aug 2024 13:42:46 -0500, Lynn McGuire
<[email protected]> wrote:
Incredibly sad. And the Democrat candidate here in the USA is talking >>>>> freezing food prices and making grocery stores report any changes in >>>>> their prices, causing huge paperwork and never ending bureaucracies.
The presumed Democratic candidate for President (she won't be the
candidate until the convention chooses her) appears to be talking
about artificially raising prices and keeping them raised far longer
than the economic situation requires. And I don't want to see a quote
from 5 years ago on the topic; people's ideas change over time.
I suspect you have happened on a Putin/Trump Talking Point and have
swallowed it whole. Surely by now you realize that these things are
useful only as projections onto the Dems of what Trump (and so the
Republicans, as long as they do not disavow him and all his works and
all his ways) would like to do. Which is fine in itself -- it's always >>>> helpful to know what the other guys are planning.
Please do not lie about me. This Aug 16, 2024 speech by Kamala Harris on >>> Price Fixing is on CNN:
https://www.cnn.com/2024/08/16/business/harris-price-gouging-ban-inflation/index.html
"New York CNN — Food prices have surged by more than 20% under the
Biden-Harris administration, leaving many voters eager to stretch their
dollars further at the grocery store."
"On Friday, Vice President Kamala Harris said she has a solution: a federal >>> ban on price gouging across the food industry."
Lynn
Sorry Paul, it's there black on white. Let me give you an example of what
can happen when the government fixes prices. When I was young, the
socialist state of sweden I was living in had one phone company. During me >> BBS intense youth that could lead to phone bills in the 100s of dollars.
The socialists were proud of their government monopoly. Oh, and note that
in the beginning only the governmetn approved phone was allowed, so no
choice for you.
Yes, indeed:
-- excerpts from article begin
“My plan will include new penalties for opportunistic companies that exploit crises and break the rules,” Harris said at a campaign event.
To his point, a campaign fact sheet said that Harris also plans to
make more resources available for “the federal government to identify
and take on price-fixing and other anti-competitive practices in the
food and grocery industries.”
-- excerpts from article end
Not "freezing food prices and making grocery stores report any changes
in their prices", as claimed above.
So, yes, there it is in black and white -- this article does /not/
support the Trump/Putin talking point that she will be "freezing food
prices and making grocery stores report any changes in their prices".
There is a clear difference between Putin/Trump talking points and
reality. I suggest you consider checking on the facts. Or at least
reading the articles you claim support the position you are defending
to ensure that they do, in fact, do so.
All she is promising to do is /actually enforce the laws/. I can
remember when the Republican Party was the Party of Law and Order.
But no more.
(If this post actually produces a confirming article from a credible
news source, then this post will have served a purpose.)
On Mon, 19 Aug 2024, quadibloc wrote:
A Trump victory is what would be a huge disaster.
Actually anf factually, this is incorrect.
He denies the science of global warming; he interfered with states
taking
Good man! Eco-fascism is just a mind virus to make the public give over
all power to politicians. I bet we are still alive in 20 years time,
care to take the bet?
Also note how all politicians travel with private jets, and do their
best to kill nuclear with too many laws. That proves that they don't
even believe it themselves.
necessary public health measures against COVID-19, and he spewed lies
The best policy for corona was to do nothing. Sweden proved that. AndMore baloney0.
yes, I was there on the ground, yes, here and there some idiots masked,
but overall I could live my life fairly freely until towards the end
when they started to f*ck with business.
We watched it live on TV and it was a murderous insurrection andabout
a stolen election that contributed to the January 6 insurrection.
There was no insurrection and Trump certainly did not take part. In fact
he tried to calm things done. What is a scadal is the lawfare where the democrats are weaponizing the state to try and block him from winning.
That, if anything, should be the basis of a legal process and prison for Sleepy Joe and Cackles.
in world food prices. Apparently people haven't noticed Russia invading
Ukraine... which, of course, is another _big_ reason why a Trump win
would be a disaster for the whole world.
The US should not fix the mess of europe. It's europes own mess to fix. Paradoxically, the US pulling out (which is their right, it is not fair
that the US tax payer should prop up europe) will be the best thing that
ever happened to europe. It will make it more unified, and make it grow
up and fix its own problems. So the EU will become a self-reliant
partner, better able to assist the US in the future.
Having US come in at the last minute saving the world again, would of
course be great, if I were to think as an egoistic european tax payer,
but we must realize the it is nothing but egoism to want the US to foot
EU:s bills.
Kamala Harris should indeed stay away from policies that will be
perceived
in the U.S. as wild-eyed socialism. Particularly when indeed there is no
need for them.
Not only that, she should stay away from politics. As a woman she is
less fit for presidency than a man due to biological reasons. Also note
that Trump will keep world peace, and that Putin attacked due to Sleepy
Joe. Trump knows how to handle bullies, Putin will walk all over
Cackles.
On Mon, 19 Aug 2024, Chris Buckley wrote:
On 2024-08-18, Scott Dorsey <[email protected]> wrote:
Chris Buckley <[email protected]> wrote:
How about a quote from 4 days ago?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2024/08/15/kamala-harris-price-gouging-groceries/
In a news release Wednesday, her campaign said the first 100 days >>>> of her presidency would include the “first-ever federal ban on
price gouging on food and groceries — setting clear rules of the >>>> road to make clear that big corporations can’t unfairly exploit >>>> consumers to run up excessive corporate profits on food and
groceries.”
We know so little about Harris's policies; this is not a good first
policy!
There is very clear price gouging on retail food in poor
neighborhoods, and
it's a direct consequence of not having any competition in the
market. Go
into a dollar store and check what things actually cost relative to the
grocery store in a rich neighborhood. A price ban won't fix this
problem,
although there might be another government-lead solution possible.
BUT.... honestly food in the US is incredibly cheap. Far cheaper
than it
was back in the sixties, and much cheaper than it is in Europe. We grow >>> (dented) corn so cheaply that Mexico wants to put up protective tariffs, >>> and when you can do something more cheaply than Mexico that's
impressive.
Admittedly overall food quality here is poor, but I don't see bringing
food prices in America down as a useful activity. Now, if you bring
down housing costs or medical bills, THAT might be useful.
--scott
Yes, retail food prices in poor neighborhoods are much higher than in
rich suburbs. But it's clearly not price gouging, but the cost of
doing business in an urban, poor area. If it was only lack of
competition,
you'd have supermarket chains fighting each other to open stores in
those areas. But instead you have cities desperately trying to keep
the supermarkets they have open, and offering deals to get supermarkets
to consider opening a new one. The existing supermarkets aren't making
enough money.
A few years back, I watched DC trying to woo Walmart to open a large
store (including supermarket) in an under-served area. It took many
years of negotiations, rule-changing, and property tax breaks to
finally get an agreement. It wasn't easy. It never opened - the next
city council came in and passed a law saying any extremely large
retail company (basically just Walmart) must pay a minimum wage of
$5/hour
over the current minimum wage. Walmart said they had no chance of
making money, broke their leases, and left.
The extra cost of urban business is not only the obvious costs of land
cost, security/shoplifting, and property tax, but things like just
getting the food from warehouses to the store! As you say, the
overall American cost of food is actually low now, partly because the
industry has solved the supply chain to the store issues, at least for
large suburban stores. My supermarket can handle at least a dozen
delivery
trucks at once, perhaps half of them 18-wheelers. You can't do that
kind of
traffic in an urban environment serving pedestrian customers.
I don't know how to reduce the cost of urban supermarkets other than
directly giving subsidies. But any attempts to legislate the price of
groceries in those urban markets is going to make things worse.
Chris
Thank you Chris. A very nice example of how government is always
fighting business and trying to kill it in various ways. Especially, and paradoxically, it seems hell bent on doing this where it affects the
working classes the most. Don't ask me why, but it certainly seems that way.
On 8/19/2024 4:08 PM, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
On 8/19/24 01:06, D wrote:
On Mon, 19 Aug 2024, quadibloc wrote:
A Trump victory is what would be a huge disaster.
Actually anf factually, this is incorrect.
Totally accurate it is.
He denies the science of global warming; he interfered with states
taking
Good man! Eco-fascism is just a mind virus to make the public give over
all power to politicians. I bet we are still alive in 20 years time,
care to take the bet?
Baloney! This is the line from the Fossil Fuel companies
which want to keep making money in the same destrubtive way.
Nope, just more lies about the energy making our lives more comfortable.
Also note how all politicians travel with private jets, and do their
best to kill nuclear with too many laws. That proves that they don't
even believe it themselves.
Have you every worked in Nuclear? I did and it is a mess
radioactive leaks have to be dewalt with. Nuclear Power should be
under military control where failure to do your duty is a prosecutable
offence.
Yes, I have. Lets see, the number one user of nuclear power plants is the USA. How many people have been killed in nuclear power plants in the USA ? That number is ZERO.
Nuclear power is so cheap, safe, and useful that a company just bought several nuclear power plants that were prematurely shut down in the USA and is going to refuel them and start them back up.
Lynn
Awhile back, The Three Body Problem was mentioned. In that thread, there
was no mention of the current Netflix version. Was this mentioned
somewhere else and I just missed it? Google groups is of no help any more.
I have just started the series and I am intrigued, so far. Just two
episodes.
My wife is rather "meh" about it, but she said the same thing
about Star Trek 1 which in reality she HATED so I may be watching it
after she goes to bed.
On 18 Aug 2024 20:00:50 GMT, Chris Buckley <[email protected]> wrote:
On 2024-08-18, Paul S Person <[email protected]d> wrote:
On Sat, 17 Aug 2024 13:42:46 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Incredibly sad. And the Democrat candidate here in the USA is talking >>>>freezing food prices and making grocery stores report any changes in >>>>their prices, causing huge paperwork and never ending bureaucracies.
The presumed Democratic candidate for President (she won't be the
candidate until the convention chooses her) appears to be talking
about artificially raising prices and keeping them raised far longer
than the economic situation requires. And I don't want to see a quote
from 5 years ago on the topic; people's ideas change over time.
I suspect you have happened on a Putin/Trump Talking Point and have
swallowed it whole. Surely by now you realize that these things are
useful only as projections onto the Dems of what Trump (and so the
Republicans, as long as they do not disavow him and all his works and
all his ways) would like to do. Which is fine in itself -- it's always
helpful to know what the other guys are planning.
How about a quote from 4 days ago? >>https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2024/08/15/kamala-harris-price-gouging-groceries/
In a news release Wednesday, her campaign said the first 100 days
of her presidency would include the first-ever federal ban on
price gouging on food and groceries setting clear rules of the
road to make clear that big corporations cant unfairly exploit
consumers to run up excessive corporate profits on food and
groceries.
We know so little about Harris's policies; this is not a good first policy!
The claim was that she proposed "freezing food prices and making
grocery stores report any changes in their prices".
Your quote simply doesn't back that up in any way.
But keep on trying. Who can say what Kamala may have said, say, 15
years ago in a private conversation now being outed by someone from
memory with no backup at all. Or some source of similar likely
validity.
This is actually an /excellent/ first policy -- going directly at the malefactors.
/study/ the situation to see if the problem she is trying to solve
actually exists -- that is, that the higher grocery prices actually
/are/ price-gouging and not legitimate economic behavior.
There is no point in solving a problem that does not exist.
Note: I buy a lot of store brands, and some of those, at least, have
dropped back down, at least a bit. Those concerned about grocery store reporting should keep two things in mind:
1) If the stores always mark up the items they sell by the same
amount, then /they/ aren't gouging.
2) If restricted to larger stores, or chains, then the report would
probably be done by a computer anyway. We need not picture 100 new
employees just to keep track of prices.
On 8/19/24 01:06, D wrote:
On Mon, 19 Aug 2024, quadibloc wrote:
necessary public health measures against COVID-19, and he spewed lies
Trump's mode of converse is to lie and lie again. He knew just
how bad the crisis of Covid 19 would be and he lied to the American
Public.
On Mon, 19 Aug 2024, Paul S Person wrote:
On Mon, 19 Aug 2024 00:00:02 +0200, D <[email protected]> wrote:
On Sun, 18 Aug 2024, Lynn McGuire wrote:
On 8/18/2024 11:19 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
On Sat, 17 Aug 2024 13:42:46 -0500, Lynn McGuire
<[email protected]> wrote:
Incredibly sad. And the Democrat candidate here in the USA is talking >>>>>> freezing food prices and making grocery stores report any changes in >>>>>> their prices, causing huge paperwork and never ending bureaucracies. >>>>>The presumed Democratic candidate for President (she won't be the
candidate until the convention chooses her) appears to be talking
about artificially raising prices and keeping them raised far longer >>>>> than the economic situation requires. And I don't want to see a quote >>>>> from 5 years ago on the topic; people's ideas change over time.
I suspect you have happened on a Putin/Trump Talking Point and have
swallowed it whole. Surely by now you realize that these things are
useful only as projections onto the Dems of what Trump (and so the
Republicans, as long as they do not disavow him and all his works and >>>>> all his ways) would like to do. Which is fine in itself -- it's always >>>>> helpful to know what the other guys are planning.
Please do not lie about me. This Aug 16, 2024 speech by Kamala Harris on >>>> Price Fixing is on CNN:
https://www.cnn.com/2024/08/16/business/harris-price-gouging-ban-inflation/index.html
"New York CNN � Food prices have surged by more than 20% under the
Biden-Harris administration, leaving many voters eager to stretch their >>>> dollars further at the grocery store."
"On Friday, Vice President Kamala Harris said she has a solution: a federal
ban on price gouging across the food industry."
Lynn
Sorry Paul, it's there black on white. Let me give you an example of what >>> can happen when the government fixes prices. When I was young, the
socialist state of sweden I was living in had one phone company. During me >>> BBS intense youth that could lead to phone bills in the 100s of dollars. >>> The socialists were proud of their government monopoly. Oh, and note that >>> in the beginning only the governmetn approved phone was allowed, so no
choice for you.
Yes, indeed:
-- excerpts from article begin
�My plan will include new penalties for opportunistic companies that
exploit crises and break the rules,� Harris said at a campaign event.
To his point, a campaign fact sheet said that Harris also plans to
make more resources available for �the federal government to identify
and take on price-fixing and other anti-competitive practices in the
food and grocery industries.�
-- excerpts from article end
Not "freezing food prices and making grocery stores report any changes
in their prices", as claimed above.
So, yes, there it is in black and white -- this article does /not/
support the Trump/Putin talking point that she will be "freezing food
prices and making grocery stores report any changes in their prices".
There is a clear difference between Putin/Trump talking points and
reality. I suggest you consider checking on the facts. Or at least
reading the articles you claim support the position you are defending
to ensure that they do, in fact, do so.
All she is promising to do is /actually enforce the laws/. I can
remember when the Republican Party was the Party of Law and Order.
But no more.
(If this post actually produces a confirming article from a credible
news source, then this post will have served a purpose.)
Shall we continue?
From the same text...
" There�s just one issue: Harris� proposal could create more problems than >the one it�s trying to solve, some economists say.
Gavin Roberts studied anti-price gouging laws some states passed during
the pandemic. One of the biggest effects he observed, especially at
grocery stores, was that these laws motivated people �to go buy goods more >than they would if prices had risen.�
A customer refuels a vehicle at a Mobil gas station in Los Angeles, >California, US, on Tuesday, April 2, 2024.
When prices are high, in most cases, the best policy action in response is >actually taking no action, Roberts, the chair of Weber State University�s >economics department, told CNN.
You are incorrect. I was also commenting on Lynn, please stick to that.
On Mon, 19 Aug 2024 19:54:16 +0200, D <[email protected]> wrote:
On Mon, 19 Aug 2024, Paul S Person wrote:
On Mon, 19 Aug 2024 00:00:02 +0200, D <[email protected]> wrote:
On Sun, 18 Aug 2024, Lynn McGuire wrote:
On 8/18/2024 11:19 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
On Sat, 17 Aug 2024 13:42:46 -0500, Lynn McGuire
<[email protected]> wrote:
Incredibly sad. And the Democrat candidate here in the USA is talking >>>>>>> freezing food prices and making grocery stores report any changes in >>>>>>> their prices, causing huge paperwork and never ending bureaucracies. >>>>>>The presumed Democratic candidate for President (she won't be the
candidate until the convention chooses her) appears to be talking
about artificially raising prices and keeping them raised far longer >>>>>> than the economic situation requires. And I don't want to see a quote >>>>>> from 5 years ago on the topic; people's ideas change over time.
I suspect you have happened on a Putin/Trump Talking Point and have >>>>>> swallowed it whole. Surely by now you realize that these things are >>>>>> useful only as projections onto the Dems of what Trump (and so the >>>>>> Republicans, as long as they do not disavow him and all his works and >>>>>> all his ways) would like to do. Which is fine in itself -- it's always >>>>>> helpful to know what the other guys are planning.
Please do not lie about me. This Aug 16, 2024 speech by Kamala Harris on >>>>> Price Fixing is on CNN:
https://www.cnn.com/2024/08/16/business/harris-price-gouging-ban-inflation/index.html
"New York CNN — Food prices have surged by more than 20% under the >>>>> Biden-Harris administration, leaving many voters eager to stretch their >>>>> dollars further at the grocery store."
"On Friday, Vice President Kamala Harris said she has a solution: a federal
ban on price gouging across the food industry."
Lynn
Sorry Paul, it's there black on white. Let me give you an example of what >>>> can happen when the government fixes prices. When I was young, the
socialist state of sweden I was living in had one phone company. During me >>>> BBS intense youth that could lead to phone bills in the 100s of dollars. >>>> The socialists were proud of their government monopoly. Oh, and note that >>>> in the beginning only the governmetn approved phone was allowed, so no >>>> choice for you.
Yes, indeed:
-- excerpts from article begin
“My plan will include new penalties for opportunistic companies that
exploit crises and break the rules,” Harris said at a campaign event.
To his point, a campaign fact sheet said that Harris also plans to
make more resources available for “the federal government to identify
and take on price-fixing and other anti-competitive practices in the
food and grocery industries.”
-- excerpts from article end
Not "freezing food prices and making grocery stores report any changes
in their prices", as claimed above.
So, yes, there it is in black and white -- this article does /not/
support the Trump/Putin talking point that she will be "freezing food
prices and making grocery stores report any changes in their prices".
There is a clear difference between Putin/Trump talking points and
reality. I suggest you consider checking on the facts. Or at least
reading the articles you claim support the position you are defending
to ensure that they do, in fact, do so.
All she is promising to do is /actually enforce the laws/. I can
remember when the Republican Party was the Party of Law and Order.
But no more.
(If this post actually produces a confirming article from a credible
news source, then this post will have served a purpose.)
Shall we continue?
From the same text...
" There’s just one issue: Harris’ proposal could create more problems than
the one it’s trying to solve, some economists say.
Gavin Roberts studied anti-price gouging laws some states passed during
the pandemic. One of the biggest effects he observed, especially at
grocery stores, was that these laws motivated people “to go buy goods more >> than they would if prices had risen.”
A customer refuels a vehicle at a Mobil gas station in Los Angeles,
California, US, on Tuesday, April 2, 2024.
When prices are high, in most cases, the best policy action in response is >> actually taking no action, Roberts, the chair of Weber State University’s >> economics department, told CNN.
Which also has /nothing/ to do with "freezing food prices and making
grocery stores report any changes in their prices".
You are incorrect. I was also commenting on Lynn, please stick to that.
I am correct. Please stick to the topic and stop trying to help Lynn
escape the consequences of his TPPT addiction.
This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.
On Sun, 18 Aug 2024, Lynn McGuire wrote:
"On Friday, Vice President Kamala Harris said she has a solution: a federal
ban on price gouging across the food industry."
Which also has /nothing/ to do with "freezing food prices and making
grocery stores report any changes in their prices".
You are incorrect. I was also commenting on Lynn, please stick to that.
I am correct. Please stick to the topic and stop trying to help Lynn
escape the consequences of his TPPT addiction.
No Paul, you are wrong here. Any common sense interpretation of that text >makes it obvious that Lynn is right and you are wrong.
On 2024-08-19, Paul S Person <[email protected]d> wrote:
On 18 Aug 2024 20:00:50 GMT, Chris Buckley <[email protected]> wrote:
On 2024-08-18, Paul S Person <[email protected]d> wrote:The claim was that she proposed "freezing food prices and making
On Sat, 17 Aug 2024 13:42:46 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Incredibly sad. And the Democrat candidate here in the USA is talking >>>>> freezing food prices and making grocery stores report any changes in >>>>> their prices, causing huge paperwork and never ending bureaucracies.
The presumed Democratic candidate for President (she won't be the
candidate until the convention chooses her) appears to be talking
about artificially raising prices and keeping them raised far longer
than the economic situation requires. And I don't want to see a quote
from 5 years ago on the topic; people's ideas change over time.
I suspect you have happened on a Putin/Trump Talking Point and have
swallowed it whole. Surely by now you realize that these things are
useful only as projections onto the Dems of what Trump (and so the
Republicans, as long as they do not disavow him and all his works and
all his ways) would like to do. Which is fine in itself -- it's always >>>> helpful to know what the other guys are planning.
How about a quote from 4 days ago?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2024/08/15/kamala-harris-price-gouging-groceries/
In a news release Wednesday, her campaign said the first 100 days
of her presidency would include the first-ever federal ban on
price gouging on food and groceries setting clear rules of the
road to make clear that big corporations cant unfairly exploit
consumers to run up excessive corporate profits on food and
groceries.
We know so little about Harris's policies; this is not a good first policy! >>
grocery stores report any changes in their prices".
Your quote simply doesn't back that up in any way.
But keep on trying. Who can say what Kamala may have said, say, 15
years ago in a private conversation now being outed by someone from
memory with no backup at all. Or some source of similar likely
validity.
Yes, freezing prices is a slight exageration of putting price controls
on, but only slight. The mechanisms for enforcing them are the same: how
do you envision them as different?
This is actually an /excellent/ first policy -- going directly at the
malefactors.
What malefactors???
However, I would suggest she have someone actually
/study/ the situation to see if the problem she is trying to solve
actually exists -- that is, that the higher grocery prices actually
/are/ price-gouging and not legitimate economic behavior.
There is no point in solving a problem that does not exist.
I agree with all of this. I would have no objection (other than a
mild waste of time and money) if she had proposed an urgent study of grocery prices and whether "price gouging" is happening. But she didn't.
On 8/20/2024 8:05 AM, Chris Buckley wrote:
On 2024-08-19, Paul S Person <[email protected]d> wrote:Numerous studies have already been done that show price gouging has been going on ever since the beginning of the COVID pandemic.
On 18 Aug 2024 20:00:50 GMT, Chris Buckley <[email protected]> wrote:
On 2024-08-18, Paul S Person <[email protected]d> wrote:
On Sat, 17 Aug 2024 13:42:46 -0500, Lynn McGuire
The presumed Democratic candidate for President (she won't be the
Incredibly sad. And the Democrat candidate here in the USA is talking >>>>>> freezing food prices and making grocery stores report any changes in >>>>>> their prices, causing huge paperwork and never ending bureaucracies. >>>>>
candidate until the convention chooses her) appears to be talking
about artificially raising prices and keeping them raised far longer >>>>> than the economic situation requires. And I don't want to see a quote >>>>> from 5 years ago on the topic; people's ideas change over time.
I suspect you have happened on a Putin/Trump Talking Point and have
swallowed it whole. Surely by now you realize that these things are
useful only as projections onto the Dems of what Trump (and so the
Republicans, as long as they do not disavow him and all his works and >>>>> all his ways) would like to do. Which is fine in itself -- it's always >>>>> helpful to know what the other guys are planning.
How about a quote from 4 days ago?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2024/08/15/kamala-harris-price-gouging-groceries/
In a news release Wednesday, her campaign said the first 100 days
of her presidency would include the first-ever federal ban on
price gouging on food and groceries setting clear rules of the
road to make clear that big corporations cant unfairly exploit
consumers to run up excessive corporate profits on food and
groceries.
We know so little about Harris's policies; this is not a good first policy!
The claim was that she proposed "freezing food prices and making
grocery stores report any changes in their prices".
Your quote simply doesn't back that up in any way.
But keep on trying. Who can say what Kamala may have said, say, 15
years ago in a private conversation now being outed by someone from
memory with no backup at all. Or some source of similar likely
validity.
Yes, freezing prices is a slight exageration of putting price controls
on, but only slight. The mechanisms for enforcing them are the same: how
do you envision them as different?
This is actually an /excellent/ first policy -- going directly at the
malefactors.
What malefactors???
However, I would suggest she have someone actually
/study/ the situation to see if the problem she is trying to solve
actually exists -- that is, that the higher grocery prices actually
/are/ price-gouging and not legitimate economic behavior.
There is no point in solving a problem that does not exist.
I agree with all of this. I would have no objection (other than a
mild waste of time and money) if she had proposed an urgent study of grocery >> prices and whether "price gouging" is happening. But she didn't.
D <[email protected]> writes:
This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.
Please don't use MIME on usenet.
On Sun, 18 Aug 2024, Lynn McGuire wrote:
"On Friday, Vice President Kamala Harris said she has a solution: a federal
ban on price gouging across the food industry."
Which also has /nothing/ to do with "freezing food prices and making
grocery stores report any changes in their prices".
You are incorrect. I was also commenting on Lynn, please stick to that. >>>I am correct. Please stick to the topic and stop trying to help Lynn
escape the consequences of his TPPT addiction.
No Paul, you are wrong here. Any common sense interpretation of that text
makes it obvious that Lynn is right and you are wrong.
Paul is correct. A ban on price gouging is _not_ the same as
price controls.
One might even go so far as suggesting that the inability of the
federal government to enforce the anti-trust laws have increased
the frequency of price gouging. Particularly in the grocery
industry which has overly consolidated over since 1980.
On 8/21/2024 3:02 AM, D wrote:
On Tue, 20 Aug 2024, Scott Lurndal wrote:
D <[email protected]> writes:
This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware
tools.
Please don't use MIME on usenet.
On Sun, 18 Aug 2024, Lynn McGuire wrote:
"On Friday, Vice President Kamala Harris said she has a solution: a >>>>>>>>> federal
ban on price gouging across the food industry."
Which also has /nothing/ to do with "freezing food prices and making >>>>> grocery stores report any changes in their prices".
You are incorrect. I was also commenting on Lynn, please stick to that. >>>>>I am correct. Please stick to the topic and stop trying to help Lynn >>>>> escape the consequences of his TPPT addiction.
No Paul, you are wrong here. Any common sense interpretation of that text >>>> makes it obvious that Lynn is right and you are wrong.
Paul is correct. A ban on price gouging is _not_ the same as
price controls.
One might even go so far as suggesting that the inability of the
federal government to enforce the anti-trust laws have increased
the frequency of price gouging. Particularly in the grocery
industry which has overly consolidated over since 1980.
You are incorrect. Let's have a look at the definitions:
Price control:
"Restriction on maximum prices that is established and maintained by the
government (as during periods of war or inflation)."
Price gouging:
"The act of or an instance of charging services or pricing goods at
unreasonably high prices."
wordnik.com
If I, as a company, cannot set my prices freely, my price is controlled.
Price control means that the government restrict the ability of business to >> control its price.
We really don't know the details of Harris's plan, so speculation is speculative.
If you, as a company, take advantage of a temporary situation to raise
your profit margin on say, a bottle of water from 100% to 1000% due
to being in a hurricane zone, that's gouging.
Again, we're in the dark about what Harris is actually proposing.
I'm very skeptical over price controls, but we need to find out what she
is actually thinking.
pt
D <[email protected]> writes:
This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.
Please don't use MIME on usenet.
On Sun, 18 Aug 2024, Lynn McGuire wrote:
"On Friday, Vice President Kamala Harris said she has a solution: a federal
ban on price gouging across the food industry."
Which also has /nothing/ to do with "freezing food prices and making
grocery stores report any changes in their prices".
You are incorrect. I was also commenting on Lynn, please stick to that. >>>I am correct. Please stick to the topic and stop trying to help Lynn
escape the consequences of his TPPT addiction.
No Paul, you are wrong here. Any common sense interpretation of that text >>makes it obvious that Lynn is right and you are wrong.
Paul is correct. A ban on price gouging is _not_ the same as
price controls.
One might even go so far as suggesting that the inability of the
federal government to enforce the anti-trust laws have increased
the frequency of price gouging. Particularly in the grocery
industry which has overly consolidated over since 1980.
On 2024-08-19, Paul S Person <[email protected]d> wrote:
The claim was that she proposed "freezing food prices and making
grocery stores report any changes in their prices".
Your quote simply doesn't back that up in any way.
But keep on trying. Who can say what Kamala may have said, say, 15
years ago in a private conversation now being outed by someone from
memory with no backup at all. Or some source of similar likely
validity.
Yes, freezing prices is a slight exageration of putting price controls
on, but only slight. The mechanisms for enforcing them are the same: how
do you envision them as different?
This is actually an /excellent/ first policy -- going directly at the
malefactors.
What malefactors???
However, I would suggest she have someone actually
/study/ the situation to see if the problem she is trying to solve
actually exists -- that is, that the higher grocery prices actually
/are/ price-gouging and not legitimate economic behavior.
There is no point in solving a problem that does not exist.
I agree with all of this. I would have no objection (other than a
mild waste of time and money) if she had proposed an urgent study of grocery >prices and whether "price gouging" is happening. But she didn't.
She said that the problem exists and that it is very urgent for the
federal government to have rules and regulations right now to stop them.
That it is so clear cut that she will have rules in place within 100 days.
Why do *you* believe that it is an excellent policy to have the
federal government involved in regulating grocery prices?
Note: I buy a lot of store brands, and some of those, at least, have
dropped back down, at least a bit. Those concerned about grocery store
reporting should keep two things in mind:
1) If the stores always mark up the items they sell by the same
amount, then /they/ aren't gouging.
2) If restricted to larger stores, or chains, then the report would
probably be done by a computer anyway. We need not picture 100 new
employees just to keep track of prices.
It's done by a computer, it's simple? Tell that the federal government -
how many multi-billion dollar computer programs have they abandoned over
the years?
My supermarket has very low prices on basics ($2.49/gallon for milk),
but has a large selection of luxury and prepared items with a much
higher markup (I'm sure some of the sushi items are 200% or more). Are you >saying the federal government should have a say in this strategy?
Their fruit prices normally vary by as much as a factor of 3 or more >throughout the year - it matters if they are getting them from local
orchards or Brazil. Are you saying the markup has to be the same
throughout the year?
Just what is this magical computer keeping track of at the federal level?
Please give citations to the studies that prove price gouging has been
done in supermarkets or that it is responsible for inflation of
grocery prices. Lots of accusations, lots of fuzzy thinking and waving
of hands, but nothing that is at all conclusive or even somewhat
convincing. Profits went up very slightly, but that's what happens you
give people hundreds of billions of dollars, directly and indirectly;
they buy more groceries!
On 8/21/2024 7:35 AM, Cryptoengineer wrote:
On 8/21/2024 3:02 AM, D wrote:
On Tue, 20 Aug 2024, Scott Lurndal wrote:
D <[email protected]> writes:
This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable >>>>> text,
while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware >>>>> tools.
Please don't use MIME on usenet.
On Sun, 18 Aug 2024, Lynn McGuire wrote:
"On Friday, Vice President Kamala Harris said she has a
solution: a federal
ban on price gouging across the food industry."
Which also has /nothing/ to do with "freezing food prices and making >>>>>> grocery stores report any changes in their prices".
You are incorrect. I was also commenting on Lynn, please stick to >>>>>>> that.
I am correct. Please stick to the topic and stop trying to help Lynn >>>>>> escape the consequences of his TPPT addiction.
No Paul, you are wrong here. Any common sense interpretation of
that text
makes it obvious that Lynn is right and you are wrong.
Paul is correct. A ban on price gouging is _not_ the same as
price controls.
One might even go so far as suggesting that the inability of the
federal government to enforce the anti-trust laws have increased
the frequency of price gouging. Particularly in the grocery
industry which has overly consolidated over since 1980.
You are incorrect. Let's have a look at the definitions:
Price control:
"Restriction on maximum prices that is established and maintained by
the government (as during periods of war or inflation)."
Price gouging:
"The act of or an instance of charging services or pricing goods at
unreasonably high prices."
wordnik.com
If I, as a company, cannot set my prices freely, my price is
controlled. Price control means that the government restrict the
ability of business to control its price.
We really don't know the details of Harris's plan, so speculation is
speculative.
If you, as a company, take advantage of a temporary situation to raise
your profit margin on say, a bottle of water from 100% to 1000% due
to being in a hurricane zone, that's gouging.
Again, we're in the dark about what Harris is actually proposing.
I'm very skeptical over price controls, but we need to find out what she
is actually thinking.
pt
We will know when the grocery store shelves start going empty.
On 8/21/2024 2:50 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
On 8/21/2024 7:35 AM, Cryptoengineer wrote:
On 8/21/2024 3:02 AM, D wrote:
On Tue, 20 Aug 2024, Scott Lurndal wrote:
D <[email protected]> writes:
This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable >>>>> text,
while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware >>>>> tools.
Please don't use MIME on usenet.
On Sun, 18 Aug 2024, Lynn McGuire wrote:
"On Friday, Vice President Kamala Harris said she has a
solution: a federal
ban on price gouging across the food industry."
Which also has /nothing/ to do with "freezing food prices and making >>>>>> grocery stores report any changes in their prices".
You are incorrect. I was also commenting on Lynn, please stick to >>>>>>> that.
I am correct. Please stick to the topic and stop trying to help Lynn >>>>>> escape the consequences of his TPPT addiction.
No Paul, you are wrong here. Any common sense interpretation of
that text
makes it obvious that Lynn is right and you are wrong.
Paul is correct. A ban on price gouging is _not_ the same as
price controls.
One might even go so far as suggesting that the inability of the
federal government to enforce the anti-trust laws have increased
the frequency of price gouging. Particularly in the grocery
industry which has overly consolidated over since 1980.
You are incorrect. Let's have a look at the definitions:
Price control:
"Restriction on maximum prices that is established and maintained by
the government (as during periods of war or inflation)."
Price gouging:
"The act of or an instance of charging services or pricing goods at
unreasonably high prices."
wordnik.com
If I, as a company, cannot set my prices freely, my price is
controlled. Price control means that the government restrict the
ability of business to control its price.
We really don't know the details of Harris's plan, so speculation is
speculative.
If you, as a company, take advantage of a temporary situation to raise
your profit margin on say, a bottle of water from 100% to 1000% due
to being in a hurricane zone, that's gouging.
Again, we're in the dark about what Harris is actually proposing.
I'm very skeptical over price controls, but we need to find out what she >> is actually thinking.
pt
We will know when the grocery store shelves start going empty.
You failed to notice that happening under Trump obviously.
On 8/21/2024 10:41 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
...
No Paul, you are wrong here. Any common sense interpretation of that
text
makes it obvious that Lynn is right and you are wrong.
Paul is correct. A ban on price gouging is _not_ the same as
price controls.
One might even go so far as suggesting that the inability of the
federal government to enforce the anti-trust laws have increased
the frequency of price gouging. Particularly in the grocery
industry which has overly consolidated over since 1980.
I noted elsewhere that what should have been an unrelated book
reminded me how much of the Federal control was put into place in a
era very much like our own. Anti-trust laws, food content regulation,
associated laws and associated Federal agencies stem from those times.
Perhaps this is the first glimmer of what further Federal controls and
even agencies will be added /this/ time around.
1%-ers, it seems, never learn.
Please tell me of any country that put price controls on food that
survived that act as a democracy or a republic.
BTW, the number one national seller of food in the USA is Walmart.
Walmart disrupted the grocery industry severely in the 1990s when they
added groceries to all of their stores. Are you going to accuse Walmart
of price fixing ? Walmart is where the poor go to shop, they know where
the best deal is.
Lynn
In article <va61n2$2c62$[email protected]>,
Dimensional Traveler <[email protected]> wrote:
On 8/21/2024 2:50 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
On 8/21/2024 7:35 AM, Cryptoengineer wrote:You failed to notice that happening under Trump obviously.
On 8/21/2024 3:02 AM, D wrote:
On Tue, 20 Aug 2024, Scott Lurndal wrote:
D <[email protected]> writes:
This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable >>>>>>> text,
while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware >>>>>>> tools.
Please don't use MIME on usenet.
On Sun, 18 Aug 2024, Lynn McGuire wrote:
"On Friday, Vice President Kamala Harris said she has a >>>>>>>>>>>> solution: a federal
ban on price gouging across the food industry."
Which also has /nothing/ to do with "freezing food prices and making >>>>>>>> grocery stores report any changes in their prices".
You are incorrect. I was also commenting on Lynn, please stick to >>>>>>>>> that.
I am correct. Please stick to the topic and stop trying to help Lynn >>>>>>>> escape the consequences of his TPPT addiction.
No Paul, you are wrong here. Any common sense interpretation of
that text
makes it obvious that Lynn is right and you are wrong.
Paul is correct. A ban on price gouging is _not_ the same as
price controls.
One might even go so far as suggesting that the inability of the
federal government to enforce the anti-trust laws have increased
the frequency of price gouging. Particularly in the grocery
industry which has overly consolidated over since 1980.
You are incorrect. Let's have a look at the definitions:
Price control:
"Restriction on maximum prices that is established and maintained by >>>>> the government (as during periods of war or inflation)."
Price gouging:
"The act of or an instance of charging services or pricing goods at
unreasonably high prices."
wordnik.com
If I, as a company, cannot set my prices freely, my price is
controlled. Price control means that the government restrict the
ability of business to control its price.
We really don't know the details of Harris's plan, so speculation is
speculative.
If you, as a company, take advantage of a temporary situation to raise >>>> your profit margin on say, a bottle of water from 100% to 1000% due
to being in a hurricane zone, that's gouging.
Again, we're in the dark about what Harris is actually proposing.
I'm very skeptical over price controls, but we need to find out what she >>>> is actually thinking.
pt
We will know when the grocery store shelves start going empty.
I never noticed a problem with grocery (or retail in general) store
stocking until February 2020. Some stores haven't yet completely
recovered.
Chris Buckley <[email protected]> wrote:
Please give citations to the studies that prove price gouging has been
done in supermarkets or that it is responsible for inflation of
grocery prices. Lots of accusations, lots of fuzzy thinking and waving
of hands, but nothing that is at all conclusive or even somewhat
convincing. Profits went up very slightly, but that's what happens you
give people hundreds of billions of dollars, directly and indirectly;
they buy more groceries!
I don't think the price gouging is happening in supermarkets so much as
in food providers that cater to lower income people in areas without supermarkets. (Which is another example here of how competition is a
good thing for markets.)
--scott
On 8/21/2024 10:41 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
...
No Paul, you are wrong here. Any common sense interpretation of that text >>>> makes it obvious that Lynn is right and you are wrong.
Paul is correct. A ban on price gouging is _not_ the same as
price controls.
One might even go so far as suggesting that the inability of the
federal government to enforce the anti-trust laws have increased
the frequency of price gouging. Particularly in the grocery
industry which has overly consolidated over since 1980.
I noted elsewhere that what should have been an unrelated book
reminded me how much of the Federal control was put into place in a
era very much like our own. Anti-trust laws, food content regulation,
associated laws and associated Federal agencies stem from those times.
Perhaps this is the first glimmer of what further Federal controls and
even agencies will be added /this/ time around.
1%-ers, it seems, never learn.
Please tell me of any country that put price controls on food that survived that act as a democracy or a republic.
BTW, the number one national seller of food in the USA is Walmart. Walmart disrupted the grocery industry severely in the 1990s when they added groceries to all of their stores. Are you going to accuse Walmart of price fixing ? Walmart is where the poor go to shop, they know where the best deal is.
Lynn
Chris Buckley <[email protected]> wrote:
Please give citations to the studies that prove price gouging has been
done in supermarkets or that it is responsible for inflation of
grocery prices. Lots of accusations, lots of fuzzy thinking and waving
of hands, but nothing that is at all conclusive or even somewhat >>convincing. Profits went up very slightly, but that's what happens you
give people hundreds of billions of dollars, directly and indirectly;
they buy more groceries!
I don't think the price gouging is happening in supermarkets so much as
in food providers that cater to lower income people in areas without supermarkets. (Which is another example here of how competition is a
good thing for markets.)
On 8/21/2024 2:50 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
On 8/21/2024 7:35 AM, Cryptoengineer wrote:You failed to notice that happening under Trump obviously.
We really don't know the details of Harris's plan, so speculation is
speculative.
If you, as a company, take advantage of a temporary situation to raise
your profit margin on say, a bottle of water from 100% to 1000% due
to being in a hurricane zone, that's gouging.
Again, we're in the dark about what Harris is actually proposing.
I'm very skeptical over price controls, but we need to find out what she >>> is actually thinking.
pt
We will know when the grocery store shelves start going empty.
On 20 Aug 2024 15:05:59 GMT, Chris Buckley <[email protected]> wrote:
On 2024-08-19, Paul S Person <[email protected]d> wrote:
<snip-a-bit>
The claim was that she proposed "freezing food prices and making
grocery stores report any changes in their prices".
Your quote simply doesn't back that up in any way.
But keep on trying. Who can say what Kamala may have said, say, 15
years ago in a private conversation now being outed by someone from
memory with no backup at all. Or some source of similar likely
validity.
Yes, freezing prices is a slight exageration of putting price controls
on, but only slight. The mechanisms for enforcing them are the same: how >>do you envision them as different?
It is a PTTP, pure and simple.
I don't "envision" either as likely any time soon.
Price /controls/ imply rationing. As during WWII. You control the
prices because otherwise scarcity will cause them to rise.
Price /gouging/ is handled by putting people in prison. It is a crime.
Or should be. The problem, of course, is telling when it is happening
-- and who is doing it.
This is actually an /excellent/ first policy -- going directly at the
malefactors.
What malefactors???
That's my point: the people actually doing the price gouging should be identified before solutions are proposed.
However, I would suggest she have someone actually
/study/ the situation to see if the problem she is trying to solve
actually exists -- that is, that the higher grocery prices actually
/are/ price-gouging and not legitimate economic behavior.
There is no point in solving a problem that does not exist.
I agree with all of this. I would have no objection (other than a
mild waste of time and money) if she had proposed an urgent study of grocery >>prices and whether "price gouging" is happening. But she didn't.
She said that the problem exists and that it is very urgent for the
federal government to have rules and regulations right now to stop them. >>That it is so clear cut that she will have rules in place within 100 days.
Only if the laws exist already. Some have indicated that new laws
might be needed. That could take a while to sort out. Particularly if
the Republicans control either or both Houses of Congress.
Why do *you* believe that it is an excellent policy to have the
federal government involved in regulating grocery prices?
I said it was an excellent /first/ policy. I did not say it was
excellent as such. It is a good place to start. She can make some fine declarations from the Oval Office on the topic. Whether it actually
goes anywhere who can say? This is politics, after all. Did the Wall
get build with Mexico paying? Don't think so.
Note: I buy a lot of store brands, and some of those, at least, have
dropped back down, at least a bit. Those concerned about grocery store
reporting should keep two things in mind:
1) If the stores always mark up the items they sell by the same
amount, then /they/ aren't gouging.
2) If restricted to larger stores, or chains, then the report would
probably be done by a computer anyway. We need not picture 100 new
employees just to keep track of prices.
It's done by a computer, it's simple? Tell that the federal government - >>how many multi-billion dollar computer programs have they abandoned over >>the years?
Do you really believe that a major corporation is somehow unable to
tell exactly where every penny received from something it sold goes
to? Cost of item, cost of overhead, cost of wages, profit, and any
others? Not the CEO, perhaps, but some weenie three or four levels
down in Accounting surely can.
If they can't, then /they can't tell which lines/products make the
most money for them/ and how can they make intelligent business
decisions if they literally don't know what they are doing?
My supermarket has very low prices on basics ($2.49/gallon for milk),
but has a large selection of luxury and prepared items with a much
higher markup (I'm sure some of the sushi items are 200% or more). Are you >>saying the federal government should have a say in this strategy?
Their fruit prices normally vary by as much as a factor of 3 or more >>throughout the year - it matters if they are getting them from local >>orchards or Brazil. Are you saying the markup has to be the same
throughout the year?
No. But it has to not triple when a pandemic hits unless there is a
good economic reason for it. And "raking it in while I have the chance
and devil take the hindmost" is not a good economic reason.
Which is why the effort, confined to the major corporations, should
also start with historical research so an idea can be formed of what
is normal and what is not.
Just what is this magical computer keeping track of at the federal level?
What magical computer? I don't think they exist ... in this reality.
Maybe in PTTP-land. In fact, I would think Russia would be a good
place to look for such a machine. Or China.
At the risk of widening the discussion a bit, I recommend Johan Norbergs, >"The Capitalist Manifesto" where he shows in a very easy to understand
On 8/21/2024 10:41 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
...
No Paul, you are wrong here. Any common sense interpretation of that text >>>> makes it obvious that Lynn is right and you are wrong.
Paul is correct. A ban on price gouging is _not_ the same as
price controls.
One might even go so far as suggesting that the inability of the
federal government to enforce the anti-trust laws have increased
the frequency of price gouging. Particularly in the grocery
industry which has overly consolidated over since 1980.
I noted elsewhere that what should have been an unrelated book
reminded me how much of the Federal control was put into place in a
era very much like our own. Anti-trust laws, food content regulation,
associated laws and associated Federal agencies stem from those times.
Perhaps this is the first glimmer of what further Federal controls and
even agencies will be added /this/ time around.
1%-ers, it seems, never learn.
Please tell me of any country that put price controls on food that
survived that act as a democracy or a republic.
D <[email protected]> writes:
At the risk of widening the discussion a bit, I recommend Johan Norbergs,
"The Capitalist Manifesto" where he shows in a very easy to understand
Balance that with Thomas Piketty.
"Capital in the Twenty-First Century"
On 8/21/2024 10:41 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
...
No Paul, you are wrong here. Any common sense interpretation of that text >>>> makes it obvious that Lynn is right and you are wrong.
Paul is correct. A ban on price gouging is _not_ the same as
price controls.
One might even go so far as suggesting that the inability of the
federal government to enforce the anti-trust laws have increased
the frequency of price gouging. Particularly in the grocery
industry which has overly consolidated over since 1980.
I noted elsewhere that what should have been an unrelated book
reminded me how much of the Federal control was put into place in a
era very much like our own. Anti-trust laws, food content regulation,
associated laws and associated Federal agencies stem from those times.
Perhaps this is the first glimmer of what further Federal controls and
even agencies will be added /this/ time around.
1%-ers, it seems, never learn.
Please tell me of any country that put price controls on food that
survived that act as a democracy or a republic.
BTW, the number one national seller of food in the USA is Walmart.
Walmart disrupted the grocery industry severely in the 1990s when they
added groceries to all of their stores. Are you going to accuse Walmart
of price fixing ? Walmart is where the poor go to shop, they know where
the best deal is.
On 8/22/24 07:24, Scott Lurndal wrote:
D <[email protected]> writes:I believe he has a subsequent volume as well. But he discusses
At the risk of widening the discussion a bit, I recommend Johan Norbergs, >>> "The Capitalist Manifesto" where he shows in a very easy to understand
Balance that with Thomas Piketty.
"Capital in the Twenty-First Century"
the economic conditions as between public wealth and privately held
wealth. Capitalism is responsible for the ongoing climate crisis.
The deleterious effects of mass fossil fuel use were set out quite
early in the development of the Industrial Age and in 1937 a scientist >working for a petroleum extractor made it perfectly clear that disaster
was waiting around the corner but the Profit seekers at the top
suppressed his report in order to sell more gasoline and fuel oils.
On 8/21/24 22:07, Robert Woodward wrote:
In article <va61n2$2c62$[email protected]>,Well since March 19 2020 we had a worldwide pandemic and
Dimensional Traveler <[email protected]> wrote:
On 8/21/2024 2:50 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
On 8/21/2024 7:35 AM, Cryptoengineer wrote:You failed to notice that happening under Trump obviously.
On 8/21/2024 3:02 AM, D wrote:
On Tue, 20 Aug 2024, Scott Lurndal wrote:
D <[email protected]> writes:
�This message is in MIME format.� The first part should be readable >>>>>>>> text,
�while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware >>>>>>>> tools.
Please don't use MIME on usenet.
On Sun, 18 Aug 2024, Lynn McGuire wrote:
"On Friday, Vice President Kamala Harris said she has a >>>>>>>>>>>>> solution: a federal
ban on price gouging across the food industry."
Which also has /nothing/ to do with "freezing food prices and making >>>>>>>>> grocery stores report any changes in their prices".
You are incorrect. I was also commenting on Lynn, please stick to >>>>>>>>>> that.
I am correct. Please stick to the topic and stop trying to help Lynn >>>>>>>>> escape the consequences of his TPPT addiction.
No Paul, you are wrong here. Any common sense interpretation of >>>>>>>> that text
makes it obvious that Lynn is right and you are wrong.
Paul is correct.�� A ban on price gouging is _not_ the same as
price controls.
One might even go so far as suggesting that the inability of the >>>>>>> federal government to enforce the anti-trust laws have increased >>>>>>> the frequency of price gouging.� Particularly in the grocery
industry which has overly consolidated over since 1980.
You are incorrect. Let's have a look at the definitions:
Price control:
"Restriction on maximum prices that is established and maintained by >>>>>> the government (as during periods of war or inflation)."
Price gouging:
"The act of or an instance of charging services or pricing goods at >>>>>> unreasonably high prices."
wordnik.com
If I, as a company, cannot set my prices freely, my price is
controlled. Price control means that the government restrict the
ability of business to control its price.
We really don't know the details of Harris's plan, so speculation is >>>>> speculative.
If you, as a company, take advantage of a temporary situation to raise >>>>> your profit margin on say, a bottle of water from 100% to 1000% due
to being in a hurricane zone, that's gouging.
Again, we're in the dark about what Harris is actually proposing.
I'm very skeptical over price controls, but we need to find out what she >>>>> is actually thinking.
pt
We will know when the grocery store shelves start going empty.
I never noticed a problem with grocery (or retail in general) store
stocking until February 2020. Some stores haven't yet completely
recovered.
it was necessary to curtail employee exposures and even trucking
businesses slowed down. Then due to rw advice frem #45 and the
likes of QAnon, a lot of poeple died, some were truckers. Meantime
cargo ships were anchored in San Francisco Bay waiting for personnel
to assemble to transfer cargo in spite of restrictions and the
trucks to carry the goods away to the markets. I imagine the scene
was the same or more so on the East Coast and Gulf ports.
In San Francisco the closing of the office buildings
wiped out the small shops catering to them and to the businesses
in which they were employed. Lots of local folks lost there
work as things closed down. San Francisco has not quite recovered
though it is definitely doing better. Still lots of opportunity
in San Francisco as lots of prime retail and offic space is
available. And Employers are calling the office personnel
to come to the office more often despite their work from home
performance.
On 2024-08-21, Scott Dorsey <[email protected]> wrote:
Chris Buckley <[email protected]> wrote:
Please give citations to the studies that prove price gouging has been >>>done in supermarkets or that it is responsible for inflation of
grocery prices. Lots of accusations, lots of fuzzy thinking and waving
of hands, but nothing that is at all conclusive or even somewhat >>>convincing. Profits went up very slightly, but that's what happens you >>>give people hundreds of billions of dollars, directly and indirectly; >>>they buy more groceries!
I don't think the price gouging is happening in supermarkets so much as
in food providers that cater to lower income people in areas without
supermarkets. (Which is another example here of how competition is a
good thing for markets.)
Again,if there was good money to be made from selling food to poorer
urban folks, the supermarkets would be doing so. Groceries is one of
the most competitive areas out there. I have never heard of an urban
area that deliberately kept supermarkets out to keep prices non-competitive.
I think that you are using a much looser definition of price gouging
(akin to excess profits) than anybody else in this discussion,
including Harris, and I've been trying to argue from your
definition here. As a legal term, price gouging is defined as temporarily >selling something for more than market value due to some external >circumstance like catastrophe. Unfortunately, the price of food in
poor urban areas is at market value for that market.
On 2024-08-21, Paul S Person <[email protected]d> wrote:
On 20 Aug 2024 15:05:59 GMT, Chris Buckley <[email protected]> wrote:
On 2024-08-19, Paul S Person <[email protected]d> wrote:
<snip-a-bit>
The claim was that she proposed "freezing food prices and making
grocery stores report any changes in their prices".
Your quote simply doesn't back that up in any way.
But keep on trying. Who can say what Kamala may have said, say, 15
years ago in a private conversation now being outed by someone from
memory with no backup at all. Or some source of similar likely
validity.
Yes, freezing prices is a slight exageration of putting price controls >>>on, but only slight. The mechanisms for enforcing them are the same: how >>>do you envision them as different?
It is a PTTP, pure and simple.
I don't "envision" either as likely any time soon.
Price /controls/ imply rationing. As during WWII. You control the
prices because otherwise scarcity will cause them to rise.
You are using your own private definitions again. Price control is
a general economic term that includes things like price gouging laws,
price freezing, rent control, minimum wages. None of these imply
rationing, which is a logistics term. Both rationing and price controls
can be used to solve the same problem, but if anything, it is rationing
that implies price controls.
Price /gouging/ is handled by putting people in prison. It is a crime.
Or should be. The problem, of course, is telling when it is happening
-- and who is doing it.
This is actually an /excellent/ first policy -- going directly at the
malefactors.
What malefactors???
That's my point: the people actually doing the price gouging should be
identified before solutions are proposed.
Only if the laws exist already. Some have indicated that new lawsHowever, I would suggest she have someone actually
/study/ the situation to see if the problem she is trying to solve
actually exists -- that is, that the higher grocery prices actually
/are/ price-gouging and not legitimate economic behavior.
There is no point in solving a problem that does not exist.
I agree with all of this. I would have no objection (other than a
mild waste of time and money) if she had proposed an urgent study of grocery >>>prices and whether "price gouging" is happening. But she didn't.
She said that the problem exists and that it is very urgent for the >>>federal government to have rules and regulations right now to stop them. >>>That it is so clear cut that she will have rules in place within 100 days. >>
might be needed. That could take a while to sort out. Particularly if
the Republicans control either or both Houses of Congress.
That wasn't part of her claim. She will have new clear rules within
100 days if elected.
Why do *you* believe that it is an excellent policy to have the
federal government involved in regulating grocery prices?
I said it was an excellent /first/ policy. I did not say it was
excellent as such. It is a good place to start. She can make some fine
declarations from the Oval Office on the topic. Whether it actually
goes anywhere who can say? This is politics, after all. Did the Wall
get build with Mexico paying? Don't think so.
What a patronising view of Harris. It's a first policy so of course
it isn't expected to be of a high quality. She will learn to play with
the adults later on.
Note: I buy a lot of store brands, and some of those, at least, have
dropped back down, at least a bit. Those concerned about grocery store >>>> reporting should keep two things in mind:
1) If the stores always mark up the items they sell by the same
amount, then /they/ aren't gouging.
2) If restricted to larger stores, or chains, then the report would
probably be done by a computer anyway. We need not picture 100 new
employees just to keep track of prices.
It's done by a computer, it's simple? Tell that the federal government - >>>how many multi-billion dollar computer programs have they abandoned over >>>the years?
Do you really believe that a major corporation is somehow unable to
tell exactly where every penny received from something it sold goes
to? Cost of item, cost of overhead, cost of wages, profit, and any
others? Not the CEO, perhaps, but some weenie three or four levels
down in Accounting surely can.
If they can't, then /they can't tell which lines/products make the
most money for them/ and how can they make intelligent business
decisions if they literally don't know what they are doing?
No, they can't. When they sell an item, they do not know what they
paid for it and what the overhead was. They know all the various
prices that they paid for that item category (eg $1 last month, $1.10
the month before) but they don't know which of those costs apply to
this particular item. They know what the expected wastage is of a
produce item, but they don't know whether the shipment for this
particular apple happened to be mostly spoiled because they don't know what >shipment it came from.
When your wholesale cost of eggs suddenly triples, what retail price
do you start charging and when? Some eggs will probably be sold at an >enormous markup, but that is not price gouging.
How about when everybody else's wholesale cost of eggs triples and they >double their retail prices, but you have a longer-term contract with your >supplier and are still paying the original rate? If you double your
retail price, you are not price gouging according to any legal definition >that I know of. Price gouging is defined as excess profits when selling
above the market rate.
That's a major reason why Harris's proposal is nonsense. Price gouging
is defined in terms of selling above market prices, and grocery
markets are local, not national. The state governments are reasonable
places for price gouging laws; the federal government has no expertise
in local markets. (The federal government absolutely has a place in
price collusion laws, forbidding industries from agreeing to
artificially high prices. But unfortunately for Harris, those laws
already exist.)
My supermarket has very low prices on basics ($2.49/gallon for milk),
but has a large selection of luxury and prepared items with a much
higher markup (I'm sure some of the sushi items are 200% or more). Are you >>>saying the federal government should have a say in this strategy?
Their fruit prices normally vary by as much as a factor of 3 or more >>>throughout the year - it matters if they are getting them from local >>>orchards or Brazil. Are you saying the markup has to be the same >>>throughout the year?
No. But it has to not triple when a pandemic hits unless there is a
good economic reason for it. And "raking it in while I have the chance
and devil take the hindmost" is not a good economic reason.
But where do you draw the line? Be precise.
Again, the issue is not the need for price collusion laws, those already >exist. The emphasis has to be on keeping fair competition in the >marketplace. Most of the conspiracy theories I've seen about grocery
prices imply collusion. But that's a complaint about enforcement of
existing laws.
Which is why the effort, confined to the major corporations, should
also start with historical research so an idea can be formed of what
is normal and what is not.
Just what is this magical computer keeping track of at the federal level?
What magical computer? I don't think they exist ... in this reality.
Maybe in PTTP-land. In fact, I would think Russia would be a good
place to look for such a machine. Or China.
You're the one that said all this is simple because it can be done on
a computer! Ridiculous.
Please tell me of any country that put price controls on food that
survived that act as a democracy or a republic.
BTW, the number one national seller of food in the USA is Walmart.
Walmart disrupted the grocery industry severely in the 1990s when they
added groceries to all of their stores. Are you going to accuse Walmart
of price fixing ? Walmart is where the poor go to shop, they know where
the best deal is.
Lynn McGuire <[email protected]> wrote:
Please tell me of any country that put price controls on food that
survived that act as a democracy or a republic.
The US and the UK? Both did it during wartime as a temporary move and
then eliminated the controls when the crisis was over.
On Thu, 22 Aug 2024 07:50:19 -0700, Bobbie Sellers <[email protected]> wrote:
On 8/22/24 07:24, Scott Lurndal wrote:
D <[email protected]> writes:I believe he has a subsequent volume as well. But he discusses
At the risk of widening the discussion a bit, I recommend Johan Norbergs, >>>> "The Capitalist Manifesto" where he shows in a very easy to understand
Balance that with Thomas Piketty.
"Capital in the Twenty-First Century"
the economic conditions as between public wealth and privately held
wealth. Capitalism is responsible for the ongoing climate crisis.
The deleterious effects of mass fossil fuel use were set out quite
early in the development of the Industrial Age and in 1937 a scientist
working for a petroleum extractor made it perfectly clear that disaster
was waiting around the corner but the Profit seekers at the top
suppressed his report in order to sell more gasoline and fuel oils.
Externalization of costs is a well-known downside to capitlism.
The poster child for this is the smokestack, belching out stuff that
settles and turns everything black. Even the formerly-white moths.
The latest example is nuclear waste, which was /deliberately/
externalized by the gumming to make the cost of electricity produced
by nuclear plants as competitive as possible with other sources. Now
storing the waste is (and has been for some time) a problem for The
Rest of Us.
D <[email protected]> writes:
At the risk of widening the discussion a bit, I recommend Johan Norbergs,
"The Capitalist Manifesto" where he shows in a very easy to understand
Balance that with Thomas Piketty.
"Capital in the Twenty-First Century"
On 22 Aug 2024 13:50:01 GMT, Chris Buckley <[email protected]> wrote:
On 2024-08-21, Paul S Person <[email protected]d> wrote:
On 20 Aug 2024 15:05:59 GMT, Chris Buckley <[email protected]> wrote:
On 2024-08-19, Paul S Person <[email protected]d> wrote:
<snip-a-bit>
The claim was that she proposed "freezing food prices and making
grocery stores report any changes in their prices".
Your quote simply doesn't back that up in any way.
But keep on trying. Who can say what Kamala may have said, say, 15
years ago in a private conversation now being outed by someone from
memory with no backup at all. Or some source of similar likely
validity.
Yes, freezing prices is a slight exageration of putting price controls >>>>on, but only slight. The mechanisms for enforcing them are the same: how >>>>do you envision them as different?
It is a PTTP, pure and simple.
I don't "envision" either as likely any time soon.
Price /controls/ imply rationing. As during WWII. You control the
prices because otherwise scarcity will cause them to rise.
You are using your own private definitions again. Price control is
a general economic term that includes things like price gouging laws,
price freezing, rent control, minimum wages. None of these imply
rationing, which is a logistics term. Both rationing and price controls
can be used to solve the same problem, but if anything, it is rationing >>that implies price controls.
And yet it is you yourself who asked me to /distinguish/ them.
This says a lot about your character, you know.
Price /gouging/ is handled by putting people in prison. It is a crime.
Or should be. The problem, of course, is telling when it is happening
-- and who is doing it.
This is actually an /excellent/ first policy -- going directly at the >>>>> malefactors.
What malefactors???
That's my point: the people actually doing the price gouging should be
identified before solutions are proposed.
Only if the laws exist already. Some have indicated that new lawsHowever, I would suggest she have someone actually
/study/ the situation to see if the problem she is trying to solve
actually exists -- that is, that the higher grocery prices actually
/are/ price-gouging and not legitimate economic behavior.
There is no point in solving a problem that does not exist.
I agree with all of this. I would have no objection (other than a
mild waste of time and money) if she had proposed an urgent study of grocery
prices and whether "price gouging" is happening. But she didn't.
She said that the problem exists and that it is very urgent for the >>>>federal government to have rules and regulations right now to stop them. >>>>That it is so clear cut that she will have rules in place within 100 days. >>>
might be needed. That could take a while to sort out. Particularly if
the Republicans control either or both Houses of Congress.
That wasn't part of her claim. She will have new clear rules within
100 days if elected.
Why do *you* believe that it is an excellent policy to have the
federal government involved in regulating grocery prices?
I said it was an excellent /first/ policy. I did not say it was
excellent as such. It is a good place to start. She can make some fine
declarations from the Oval Office on the topic. Whether it actually
goes anywhere who can say? This is politics, after all. Did the Wall
get build with Mexico paying? Don't think so.
What a patronising view of Harris. It's a first policy so of course
it isn't expected to be of a high quality. She will learn to play with
the adults later on.
It is a political campaign speech. Just like Trump's Wall, paid by
Mexico. What happens after she gets in will become clear over time.
Quite possibly little or nothing -- as with Trump's Wall.
OK, the chance of someone scamming people by claiming to be doing it
on his own (as happened with the Wall) is probably a bit less.
Note: I buy a lot of store brands, and some of those, at least, have >>>>> dropped back down, at least a bit. Those concerned about grocery store >>>>> reporting should keep two things in mind:
1) If the stores always mark up the items they sell by the same
amount, then /they/ aren't gouging.
2) If restricted to larger stores, or chains, then the report would
probably be done by a computer anyway. We need not picture 100 new
employees just to keep track of prices.
It's done by a computer, it's simple? Tell that the federal government - >>>>how many multi-billion dollar computer programs have they abandoned over >>>>the years?
Do you really believe that a major corporation is somehow unable to
tell exactly where every penny received from something it sold goes
to? Cost of item, cost of overhead, cost of wages, profit, and any
others? Not the CEO, perhaps, but some weenie three or four levels
down in Accounting surely can.
If they can't, then /they can't tell which lines/products make the
most money for them/ and how can they make intelligent business
decisions if they literally don't know what they are doing?
No, they can't. When they sell an item, they do not know what they
paid for it and what the overhead was. They know all the various
prices that they paid for that item category (eg $1 last month, $1.10
the month before) but they don't know which of those costs apply to
this particular item. They know what the expected wastage is of a
produce item, but they don't know whether the shipment for this
particular apple happened to be mostly spoiled because they don't know what >>shipment it came from.
Then they aren't in business. They are just pretending.
When your wholesale cost of eggs suddenly triples, what retail price
do you start charging and when? Some eggs will probably be sold at an >>enormous markup, but that is not price gouging.
/That/ would be an economic justification for an increased markup:
having to make enough from the current items to purchase more.
But, of course, they would have to know what they paid for the current
items. According to you, they know no such thing, and so cannot tell
if the price of eggs is going up or not.
How about when everybody else's wholesale cost of eggs triples and they >>double their retail prices, but you have a longer-term contract with your >>supplier and are still paying the original rate? If you double your
retail price, you are not price gouging according to any legal definition >>that I know of. Price gouging is defined as excess profits when selling >>above the market rate.
Perhaps not, but if they are charging just as much when they can
charge less, they are either in an illegal price-fixing cartel or are
not in business.
That's a major reason why Harris's proposal is nonsense. Price gouging
is defined in terms of selling above market prices, and grocery
markets are local, not national. The state governments are reasonable >>places for price gouging laws; the federal government has no expertise
in local markets. (The federal government absolutely has a place in
price collusion laws, forbidding industries from agreeing to
artificially high prices. But unfortunately for Harris, those laws
already exist.)
The laws exist but are they being enforced? The last memorable
antitrust action I recall was Microsoft, which was very interesting in explaining just why OS/2 failed, but didn't result in splitting up
Microsoft into competing units with no common direction.
Suppose what she is /really/ saying is that the antirust laws will be
applied to the food industry?
My supermarket has very low prices on basics ($2.49/gallon for milk), >>>>but has a large selection of luxury and prepared items with a much >>>>higher markup (I'm sure some of the sushi items are 200% or more). Are you >>>>saying the federal government should have a say in this strategy?
Their fruit prices normally vary by as much as a factor of 3 or more >>>>throughout the year - it matters if they are getting them from local >>>>orchards or Brazil. Are you saying the markup has to be the same >>>>throughout the year?
No. But it has to not triple when a pandemic hits unless there is a
good economic reason for it. And "raking it in while I have the chance
and devil take the hindmost" is not a good economic reason.
But where do you draw the line? Be precise.
Again, the issue is not the need for price collusion laws, those already >>exist. The emphasis has to be on keeping fair competition in the >>marketplace. Most of the conspiracy theories I've seen about grocery
prices imply collusion. But that's a complaint about enforcement of >>existing laws.
And it may be Kamala's complaint as well. Which she should be able to
remedy as President with a few judicious appointments and
speechifying.
Which is why the effort, confined to the major corporations, should
also start with historical research so an idea can be formed of what
is normal and what is not.
Just what is this magical computer keeping track of at the federal level? >>>What magical computer? I don't think they exist ... in this reality.
Maybe in PTTP-land. In fact, I would think Russia would be a good
place to look for such a machine. Or China.
You're the one that said all this is simple because it can be done on
a computer! Ridiculous.
I said that a /major corporation/ can provide the historical and
current data that they based the decisions being investigated on
without hiring 100 clerks to write the data on parchment with quill
pens by using their computers to produce it.
On Wed, 21 Aug 2024 23:59:13 -0700, Bobbie Sellers <[email protected]> wrote:
On 8/21/24 22:07, Robert Woodward wrote:
In article <va61n2$2c62$[email protected]>,Well since March 19 2020 we had a worldwide pandemic and
Dimensional Traveler <[email protected]> wrote:
On 8/21/2024 2:50 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
On 8/21/2024 7:35 AM, Cryptoengineer wrote:You failed to notice that happening under Trump obviously.
On 8/21/2024 3:02 AM, D wrote:
On Tue, 20 Aug 2024, Scott Lurndal wrote:
D <[email protected]> writes:
This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable
text,
while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware
tools.
Please don't use MIME on usenet.
On Sun, 18 Aug 2024, Lynn McGuire wrote:
"On Friday, Vice President Kamala Harris said she has a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> solution: a federal
ban on price gouging across the food industry."
Which also has /nothing/ to do with "freezing food prices and making >>>>>>>>>> grocery stores report any changes in their prices".
You are incorrect. I was also commenting on Lynn, please stick to >>>>>>>>>>> that.
I am correct. Please stick to the topic and stop trying to help Lynn >>>>>>>>>> escape the consequences of his TPPT addiction.
No Paul, you are wrong here. Any common sense interpretation of >>>>>>>>> that text
makes it obvious that Lynn is right and you are wrong.
Paul is correct. A ban on price gouging is _not_ the same as >>>>>>>> price controls.
One might even go so far as suggesting that the inability of the >>>>>>>> federal government to enforce the anti-trust laws have increased >>>>>>>> the frequency of price gouging. Particularly in the grocery
industry which has overly consolidated over since 1980.
You are incorrect. Let's have a look at the definitions:
Price control:
"Restriction on maximum prices that is established and maintained by >>>>>>> the government (as during periods of war or inflation)."
Price gouging:
"The act of or an instance of charging services or pricing goods at >>>>>>> unreasonably high prices."
wordnik.com
If I, as a company, cannot set my prices freely, my price is
controlled. Price control means that the government restrict the >>>>>>> ability of business to control its price.
We really don't know the details of Harris's plan, so speculation is >>>>>> speculative.
If you, as a company, take advantage of a temporary situation to raise >>>>>> your profit margin on say, a bottle of water from 100% to 1000% due >>>>>> to being in a hurricane zone, that's gouging.
Again, we're in the dark about what Harris is actually proposing.
I'm very skeptical over price controls, but we need to find out what she >>>>>> is actually thinking.
pt
We will know when the grocery store shelves start going empty.
I never noticed a problem with grocery (or retail in general) store
stocking until February 2020. Some stores haven't yet completely
recovered.
it was necessary to curtail employee exposures and even trucking
businesses slowed down. Then due to rw advice frem #45 and the
likes of QAnon, a lot of poeple died, some were truckers. Meantime
cargo ships were anchored in San Francisco Bay waiting for personnel
to assemble to transfer cargo in spite of restrictions and the
trucks to carry the goods away to the markets. I imagine the scene
was the same or more so on the East Coast and Gulf ports.
In San Francisco the closing of the office buildings
wiped out the small shops catering to them and to the businesses
in which they were employed. Lots of local folks lost there
work as things closed down. San Francisco has not quite recovered
though it is definitely doing better. Still lots of opportunity
in San Francisco as lots of prime retail and offic space is
available. And Employers are calling the office personnel
to come to the office more often despite their work from home
performance.
Or perhaps /because/ of their work from home performance, who can say?
On Thu, 22 Aug 2024, Scott Lurndal wrote:
D <[email protected]> writes:
At the risk of widening the discussion a bit, I recommend Johan
Norbergs,
"The Capitalist Manifesto" where he shows in a very easy to understand
Balance that with Thomas Piketty.
"Capital in the Twenty-First Century"
Haha, nice joke! ;) That book has been thoroughly critiqued to death I'm afraid.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_in_the_Twenty-First_Century#Criticism .
In article <va7pi6$h2o$[email protected]>,
Scott Dorsey <[email protected]> wrote:
Lynn McGuire <[email protected]> wrote:
Please tell me of any country that put price controls on food that >>>survived that act as a democracy or a republic.
The US and the UK? Both did it during wartime as a temporary move and
then eliminated the controls when the crisis was over.
Do price supports count as price control?
On 8/22/24 12:05, D wrote:
On Thu, 22 Aug 2024, Scott Lurndal wrote:
D <[email protected]> writes:
At the risk of widening the discussion a bit, I recommend Johan
Norbergs,
"The Capitalist Manifesto" where he shows in a very easy to understand
Balance that with Thomas Piketty.
"Capital in the Twenty-First Century"
Haha, nice joke! ;) That book has been thoroughly critiqued to death I'm
afraid.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_in_the_Twenty-First_Century#Criticism .
It is a very difficult book to read especially for people who
want to make a living in the Capitalist marketplace. It ain't even a
novel with a coherent plot or bio where interesting things are
happening and I bet the only thing harder than reading it was
writing it and dragging lots of facts from very dusty tomes.
Still it clearly points out that the more money accumulates in
private hands the less the benefits to the nation/state/populations. >Especially when the very rich avoid paying for the wars that they
force the nation into for the hope of profit despite the death toll
of soldiers, auxiliaries and non-combatants.
During the Covid-19 shutdowns all over the USA and in the rest
of the world billionaires continued to accumulation wealth. The rest of
the citizenry was losing money and dying. Nurses and physicians and
the maintenance personnel at hospitals were being worked too hard and
many left their occupations as soon as they could do so. This was
because #45 junked the carefully crafted plans from the previous >administration which might have ameliorated the situation.
On 8/22/2024 11:54 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
On 22 Aug 2024 13:50:01 GMT, Chris Buckley <[email protected]> wrote:
On 2024-08-21, Paul S Person <[email protected]d> wrote:
On 20 Aug 2024 15:05:59 GMT, Chris Buckley <[email protected]> wrote:
On 2024-08-19, Paul S Person <[email protected]d> wrote:
<snip-a-bit>
The claim was that she proposed "freezing food prices and making
grocery stores report any changes in their prices".
Your quote simply doesn't back that up in any way.
But keep on trying. Who can say what Kamala may have said, say, 15 >>>>>> years ago in a private conversation now being outed by someone from >>>>>> memory with no backup at all. Or some source of similar likely
validity.
Yes, freezing prices is a slight exageration of putting price controls >>>>> on, but only slight. The mechanisms for enforcing them are the same: how >>>>> do you envision them as different?
It is a PTTP, pure and simple.
I don't "envision" either as likely any time soon.
Price /controls/ imply rationing. As during WWII. You control the
prices because otherwise scarcity will cause them to rise.
You are using your own private definitions again. Price control is
a general economic term that includes things like price gouging laws,
price freezing, rent control, minimum wages. None of these imply
rationing, which is a logistics term. Both rationing and price controls
can be used to solve the same problem, but if anything, it is rationing
that implies price controls.
And yet it is you yourself who asked me to /distinguish/ them.
This says a lot about your character, you know.
Price /gouging/ is handled by putting people in prison. It is a crime. >>>> Or should be. The problem, of course, is telling when it is happening
-- and who is doing it.
This is actually an /excellent/ first policy -- going directly at the >>>>>> malefactors.
What malefactors???
That's my point: the people actually doing the price gouging should be >>>> identified before solutions are proposed.
However, I would suggest she have someone actually
/study/ the situation to see if the problem she is trying to solve >>>>>> actually exists -- that is, that the higher grocery prices actually >>>>>> /are/ price-gouging and not legitimate economic behavior.
There is no point in solving a problem that does not exist.
I agree with all of this. I would have no objection (other than a
mild waste of time and money) if she had proposed an urgent study of grocery
prices and whether "price gouging" is happening. But she didn't.
She said that the problem exists and that it is very urgent for the
federal government to have rules and regulations right now to stop them. >>>>> That it is so clear cut that she will have rules in place within 100 days.
Only if the laws exist already. Some have indicated that new laws
might be needed. That could take a while to sort out. Particularly if
the Republicans control either or both Houses of Congress.
That wasn't part of her claim. She will have new clear rules within
100 days if elected.
Why do *you* believe that it is an excellent policy to have the
federal government involved in regulating grocery prices?
I said it was an excellent /first/ policy. I did not say it was
excellent as such. It is a good place to start. She can make some fine >>>> declarations from the Oval Office on the topic. Whether it actually
goes anywhere who can say? This is politics, after all. Did the Wall
get build with Mexico paying? Don't think so.
What a patronising view of Harris. It's a first policy so of course
it isn't expected to be of a high quality. She will learn to play with
the adults later on.
It is a political campaign speech. Just like Trump's Wall, paid by
Mexico. What happens after she gets in will become clear over time.
Quite possibly little or nothing -- as with Trump's Wall.
OK, the chance of someone scamming people by claiming to be doing it
on his own (as happened with the Wall) is probably a bit less.
Note: I buy a lot of store brands, and some of those, at least, have >>>>>> dropped back down, at least a bit. Those concerned about grocery store >>>>>> reporting should keep two things in mind:
1) If the stores always mark up the items they sell by the same
amount, then /they/ aren't gouging.
2) If restricted to larger stores, or chains, then the report would >>>>>> probably be done by a computer anyway. We need not picture 100 new >>>>>> employees just to keep track of prices.
It's done by a computer, it's simple? Tell that the federal government - >>>>> how many multi-billion dollar computer programs have they abandoned over >>>>> the years?
Do you really believe that a major corporation is somehow unable to
tell exactly where every penny received from something it sold goes
to? Cost of item, cost of overhead, cost of wages, profit, and any
others? Not the CEO, perhaps, but some weenie three or four levels
down in Accounting surely can.
If they can't, then /they can't tell which lines/products make the
most money for them/ and how can they make intelligent business
decisions if they literally don't know what they are doing?
No, they can't. When they sell an item, they do not know what they
paid for it and what the overhead was. They know all the various
prices that they paid for that item category (eg $1 last month, $1.10
the month before) but they don't know which of those costs apply to
this particular item. They know what the expected wastage is of a
produce item, but they don't know whether the shipment for this
particular apple happened to be mostly spoiled because they don't know what >>> shipment it came from.
Then they aren't in business. They are just pretending.
When your wholesale cost of eggs suddenly triples, what retail price
do you start charging and when? Some eggs will probably be sold at an
enormous markup, but that is not price gouging.
/That/ would be an economic justification for an increased markup:
having to make enough from the current items to purchase more.
But, of course, they would have to know what they paid for the current
items. According to you, they know no such thing, and so cannot tell
if the price of eggs is going up or not.
How about when everybody else's wholesale cost of eggs triples and they
double their retail prices, but you have a longer-term contract with your >>> supplier and are still paying the original rate? If you double your
retail price, you are not price gouging according to any legal definition >>> that I know of. Price gouging is defined as excess profits when selling
above the market rate.
Perhaps not, but if they are charging just as much when they can
charge less, they are either in an illegal price-fixing cartel or are
not in business.
That's a major reason why Harris's proposal is nonsense. Price gouging
is defined in terms of selling above market prices, and grocery
markets are local, not national. The state governments are reasonable
places for price gouging laws; the federal government has no expertise
in local markets. (The federal government absolutely has a place in
price collusion laws, forbidding industries from agreeing to
artificially high prices. But unfortunately for Harris, those laws
already exist.)
The laws exist but are they being enforced? The last memorable
antitrust action I recall was Microsoft, which was very interesting in
explaining just why OS/2 failed, but didn't result in splitting up
Microsoft into competing units with no common direction.
I guess you didn't notice recently when Google Search was declared a
monopoly by a Federal court, the DoJ is looking into breaking it up.
https://www.investopedia.com/could-the-us-government-break-up-google-after-monopoly-ruling-8695107
But keep on trying. Who can say what Kamala may have said, say, 15 >>>>>>> years ago in a private conversation now being outed by someone from >>>>>>> memory with no backup at all. Or some source of similar likely
validity.
On Fri, 23 Aug 2024 08:28:58 -0700, Paul S Person ><[email protected]d> wrote:
But keep on trying. Who can say what Kamala may have said, say, 15 >>>>>>>> years ago in a private conversation now being outed by someone from >>>>>>>> memory with no backup at all. Or some source of similar likely >>>>>>>> validity.
Why is that worse than when Justin Trudeau was a high school teacher
he played in blackfrace in a school production (which was shown in the
high school annual and reprinted during his run for prime minister
years later)?
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