• OT US Politics Again.

    From Titus G@21:1/5 to Dimensional Traveler on Thu Aug 15 17:59:40 2024
    On 15/08/24 13:10, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
    On 8/14/2024 10:10 AM, The Horny Goat wrote:
    snip
    Nehemiah Scudder was a religious demagogue who on the strength of his
    politically tinged faith gained power and ended the US republic.

    How the heck you equate that to Trump is beyond me.

    Project 2025, written by Christian Nationalists many of whom were in the Trump administration and expect to be there again.


    As not a customer of the restaurant where waiters can be only Democrats
    or Republicans serving up the same old central kitchen crap, I had not
    read of this but found the Wikipedia article very scary. It will be a
    worry if they are as powerful as you imply.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Paul S Person@21:1/5 to Titus G on Thu Aug 15 09:46:45 2024
    On Thu, 15 Aug 2024 17:59:40 +1200, Titus G <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 15/08/24 13:10, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
    On 8/14/2024 10:10 AM, The Horny Goat wrote:
    snip
    Nehemiah Scudder was a religious demagogue who on the strength of his
    politically tinged faith gained power and ended the US republic.

    How the heck you equate that to Trump is beyond me.

    Project 2025, written by Christian Nationalists many of whom were in the
    Trump administration and expect to be there again.


    As not a customer of the restaurant where waiters can be only Democrats
    or Republicans serving up the same old central kitchen crap, I had not
    read of this but found the Wikipedia article very scary. It will be a
    worry if they are as powerful as you imply.

    Unless they do something /really/ stupid, like dump Kamala for Hilary,
    the Dems should win as they will /not be running a Boomer/ for
    President. Registrations of younger voters are up. And I expect that
    they will vote anti-Boomer in large numbers.

    I haven't bothered with the details because they will find a few
    roadblocks:
    -- Trump's own ego, since he didn't write it
    -- Civil Service rules (founded on Civil Service /laws/ passed by
    Congress) once they try to replace below a certain level

    And, of course, being nutters, their plans may just plain not work.

    Also, the counter-protestors in Britain suggest that they may enounter
    rather more opposition than they are planning on. Particularly since a
    lot of the key troops are in jail for their activities on Jan 6 2021.

    Of course, whoever gets in will have similar problems. But perhaps
    with better goals.
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Scott Dorsey@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Fri Aug 16 00:35:45 2024
    In article <v9k5gc$rlbp$[email protected]>, Titus G <[email protected]> wrote: >On 15/08/24 13:10, Dimensional Traveler wrote:

    Project 2025, written by Christian Nationalists many of whom were in the
    Trump administration and expect to be there again.

    As not a customer of the restaurant where waiters can be only Democrats
    or Republicans serving up the same old central kitchen crap, I had not
    read of this but found the Wikipedia article very scary. It will be a
    worry if they are as powerful as you imply.

    They will be as powerful as the people in office allow them to be. As
    someone who remembers the Moral Majority, the notion of letting those people have any control over anything is very disturbing to me.

    As I recall, Jesus wasn't a fan of them either.
    --scott

    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dimensional Traveler@21:1/5 to Paul S Person on Thu Aug 15 17:57:28 2024
    On 8/15/2024 9:46 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
    On Thu, 15 Aug 2024 17:59:40 +1200, Titus G <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 15/08/24 13:10, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
    On 8/14/2024 10:10 AM, The Horny Goat wrote:
    snip
    Nehemiah Scudder was a religious demagogue who on the strength of his
    politically tinged faith gained power and ended the US republic.

    How the heck you equate that to Trump is beyond me.

    Project 2025, written by Christian Nationalists many of whom were in the >>> Trump administration and expect to be there again.


    As not a customer of the restaurant where waiters can be only Democrats
    or Republicans serving up the same old central kitchen crap, I had not
    read of this but found the Wikipedia article very scary. It will be a
    worry if they are as powerful as you imply.

    Unless they do something /really/ stupid, like dump Kamala for Hilary,
    the Dems should win as they will /not be running a Boomer/ for
    President. Registrations of younger voters are up. And I expect that
    they will vote anti-Boomer in large numbers.

    I haven't bothered with the details because they will find a few
    roadblocks:
    -- Trump's own ego, since he didn't write it
    -- Civil Service rules (founded on Civil Service /laws/ passed by
    Congress) once they try to replace below a certain level

    Trump has already tried to negate those rules, almost succeeded despite basically do it on a whim and doing so in a planned, thought out way is
    one of the first steps in the Project 2025 playbook. Also keep in mind
    that the current Supreme Court can be counted on to shoot down any legal challenges.

    --
    I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
    dirty old man.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bobbie Sellers@21:1/5 to quadibloc on Thu Aug 15 18:01:03 2024
    On 8/15/24 12:39, quadibloc wrote:
    Myself, I am not nearly so optimistic.
    Kamala Harris is neither white nor male, and that terrifies me, as I
    think that a lot of potential
    swing voters will simply refuse to consider her on those grounds,
    preferring to vote even for Trump
    instead.


    Why are you terrified of non-white and non-male people?
    We in the USA have had many examples of non-male leaders in other
    nations from Israel to India to Great Britain. Mostly they did
    nothing to upset the local or international scene. We have known
    great black men in the USA who greatly benefited society.

    Yes, she has ignited a great deal of enthusiasm among Democrats, and
    higher turnout helps matters
    as well. But to elect a President, a party will need to get votes from
    at least some rural areas,

    Why do you think she is against rural avocations? I think a
    farmer -not an industrial farmer who might look at his land once in
    while but man who lives on the soil with a family feeding the
    local markets or national would look more clearly at her? She
    has been on the Executive track since she left law school.

    the ones more inclined to support Trump. Remember that votes are
    filtered through the Electoral
    College, so it's not enough to just have a majority of the popular vote
    due to a high turnout
    in the most populous mainly Democratic states; one has to have a
    majority in many states.

    John Savard

    I remember when Barack Obama was running and the same fears were excited by a black man, Trump publicized the idea that being born of an American Citizen on American soil was not enough to make the Democratic candidate a "real" citizen. A lot of foolish people bought it. So he
    is simply a racist idiot but it was wasted effort on his part.

    Our Fears were for naught. Obama was elected and I rejoiced because it proved the people of the USA had finally passed the point where a
    capable Black Man would be rejected by the party and by the
    Voting Citizens of the Government. I judge people by the capability
    they have exhibited to date.

    So The Harris-Walz ticket is a winner to me. If I live
    to November 5 I will have voted for the Democratic ticket.

    bliss

    --
    b l i s s - S F 4 e v e r at D S L E x t r e m e dot com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Titus G@21:1/5 to All on Sat Aug 17 16:48:56 2024
    On 8/16/2024 8:40 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
    snip

    And who ever said Chrstian Nationalism had anything to do with Jesus
    Christ, who clearly stated that his kingdom is /not/ of this world?


    That strikes me with surprise because I have you pigeon holed as a
    religious nutter of a Christian cult bent.
    From my childhood Presbyterian brainwashing, with nothing to contradict
    it since, the definition of a Christian is someone who is a believer in
    and follower of the biblical Jesus (Christ), not necessarily in all the
    evil machinations of the warlike Old Testament God and incredibly vague
    about the function of the Holy Ghost, who being one of an inseparable
    trinity would also be a king of this other worldly kingdom. Would it be addressed as Your Holiness? They are not Godians nor Ghostians but
    Christians. And the kingdom doesn't have an organisational hierarchy
    chart nor a coloured wall chart with an arrowed "You Are Here" overlay.
    If you also agree that Western cultures worship of commercialism,
    including borrowing and lending, of Christmas also has nothing to do
    with Jesus Christ, it is not too difficult to realise that most
    Christians are brilliant if unknowing hypocrites.
    The NZ Prime Minister, (who until recently spelt cat with a k), is a
    devout member of some weird USA Christian cult that preaches that Jesus Christ's kingdom is on earth right now and that the righteous believers
    like himself, are those being rewarded right now with monetary wealth.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Titus G@21:1/5 to Titus G on Sat Aug 17 16:57:11 2024
    On 17/08/24 16:48, Titus G wrote:

    snip

    Prosperity Gospel.

    https://rpl.hds.harvard.edu/faq/prosperity-gospel#:~:text=The%20Prosperity%20Gospel%20(PG)%20is,through%20devotion%20and%20positive%20confession

    or
    Encyclopedia Brittanica

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Paul S Person@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Sat Aug 17 09:12:15 2024
    On Fri, 16 Aug 2024 15:41:40 -0400, Cryptoengineer
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 8/15/2024 3:39 PM, quadibloc wrote:
    Myself, I am not nearly so optimistic.
    Kamala Harris is neither white nor male, and that terrifies me, as I
    think that a lot of potential
    swing voters will simply refuse to consider her on those grounds,
    preferring to vote even for Trump
    instead.
    Yes, she has ignited a great deal of enthusiasm among Democrats, and
    higher turnout helps matters
    as well. But to elect a President, a party will need to get votes from
    at least some rural areas,
    the ones more inclined to support Trump. Remember that votes are
    filtered through the Electoral
    College, so it's not enough to just have a majority of the popular vote
    due to a high turnout
    in the most populous mainly Democratic states; one has to have a
    majority in many states.

    Quaddie's projecting his own problems with women and brown people onto >undecided Americans.

    He should remember that we've already elected a black president, and
    Hillary failed only because Comey announced re-opening the 'emails' >investigation just 11 days before the election.

    Actually, she failed because
    -- she had no idea how the Electoral College worked, so she ignored
    the "flyover States" (each of which has at least 3 Electoral Votes)
    -- when she was out "campaigning", she was mostly schmoozing the local
    1%-ers to raise money

    Trump won because /someone/ in his campaign (I do not say Trump
    himself) knew how the Electoral College worked and Trump loved to talk
    to (well, at) voters.

    Comey's announcement came while the mail-in ballots were being mailed
    in. A lot of votes had already been cast at that point.

    Still probably a bad decision, though. But then, so was the private
    server itself. When working for the gummint on gummint time one really
    should use the gummint server. It might even be harder to hack than a
    private server, who can say?
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Paul S Person@21:1/5 to Titus G on Sat Aug 17 09:36:20 2024
    On Sat, 17 Aug 2024 16:48:56 +1200, Titus G <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 8/16/2024 8:40 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
    snip

    And who ever said Chrstian Nationalism had anything to do with Jesus
    Christ, who clearly stated that his kingdom is /not/ of this world?


    That strikes me with surprise because I have you pigeon holed as a
    religious nutter of a Christian cult bent.

    Well, that'll larn ya not to pigeonhole people.

    From my childhood Presbyterian brainwashing, with nothing to contradict
    it since, the definition of a Christian is someone who is a believer in
    and follower of the biblical Jesus (Christ), not necessarily in all the
    evil machinations of the warlike Old Testament God and incredibly vague
    about the function of the Holy Ghost, who being one of an inseparable
    trinity would also be a king of this other worldly kingdom. Would it be >addressed as Your Holiness? They are not Godians nor Ghostians but >Christians. And the kingdom doesn't have an organisational hierarchy
    chart nor a coloured wall chart with an arrowed "You Are Here" overlay.
    If you also agree that Western cultures worship of commercialism,
    including borrowing and lending, of Christmas also has nothing to do
    with Jesus Christ, it is not too difficult to realise that most
    Christians are brilliant if unknowing hypocrites.

    There are "holiness" Churches who are, as I understand it, that are
    rather focused on the Holy Ghost.

    A /balanced/ approach would attribute the gathering of Christians
    together (ie, the Church) as something the Holy Ghost does.

    The claim that we "worship" commercialism is one I have never
    understood. When the Bible talks about worshipping other gods, it
    means /worshipping/ them: bowing down before them, praying to them,
    burning incense to them, etc. And the point of the Bible is that this
    is being done to things that cannot possibly take any action. But my
    point is that, if some group actually /worshipped commercialism/ then
    they would meet together, bow down, pray to, burn incense to, etc,
    some statue or image of "commercialism".

    No, that claim is simply an effort to find idol-worship where there
    really isn't any. This is based on the theory that /anything/ that
    distracts us from God is idol-worship. That it is wrong and should be
    avoided I agree, but that it is idol-worship I do not.

    The NZ Prime Minister, (who until recently spelt cat with a k), is a
    devout member of some weird USA Christian cult that preaches that Jesus >Christ's kingdom is on earth right now and that the righteous believers
    like himself, are those being rewarded right now with monetary wealth.

    That Jesus Christ's kingdom is on earth right now isn't that strange,
    although it is usually treated as a /spiritual/ kingdom, not a
    physical one. Of course, if you are pre-millenialist, it may seem
    strange, but for post-millenialists it may be a given.

    As others have noted, the cult is one of the "prosperity gospel"
    groups. This works well for the leader, who gets lots of money from
    his followers, but not so well for the followers, who may wait their
    entire lives for their reward. The leaders are among the guys you may
    have read about who have golden cars and very large mansions as a
    result of the money they rake in. The end up in the news because the
    IRS tends to get after them because they register as Churches for tax
    purposes, and there are expectations that go along with that type of
    non-profit organization involving where the money goes.
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Horny Goat@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Sat Aug 17 17:18:34 2024
    On Sat, 17 Aug 2024 09:12:15 -0700, Paul S Person
    <[email protected]d> wrote:

    Still probably a bad decision, though. But then, so was the private
    server itself. When working for the gummint on gummint time one really
    should use the gummint server. It might even be harder to hack than a
    private server, who can say?

    Perhaps, but Washington has the right to access a server they own at
    any time they choose without a warrant.

    The same is almost certainly NOT true of a privately owned server even
    if files have been illegally moved from a government-owned server to
    the privately owned server.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Scott Dorsey@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Sun Aug 18 23:41:31 2024
    The Horny Goat <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Sat, 17 Aug 2024 09:12:15 -0700, Paul S Person ><[email protected]d> wrote:

    Still probably a bad decision, though. But then, so was the private
    server itself. When working for the gummint on gummint time one really >>should use the gummint server. It might even be harder to hack than a >>private server, who can say?

    Perhaps, but Washington has the right to access a server they own at
    any time they choose without a warrant.

    This is true, but government-owned mail servers have a whole host of requirements that come down from the DHS, from two-factor authentication
    on down to particular header formats. It's a major pain in the neck
    (and it's why small governmental organizations will try and use
    unauthorized mail servers whenever they possibly can).

    One of the big deals is that email is considered a public record and consequently needs to be archived. Its not just that it can be accessed
    by some other governmental organization, it all needs to be archived
    in specific ways. This is also a pain, but in the case of something
    like the Clinton server in question it's also very important for
    historical reference.
    --scott

    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Paul S Person@21:1/5 to Scott Dorsey on Mon Aug 19 07:58:08 2024
    On 18 Aug 2024 23:41:31 -0000, [email protected] (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

    The Horny Goat <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Sat, 17 Aug 2024 09:12:15 -0700, Paul S Person >><[email protected]d> wrote:

    Still probably a bad decision, though. But then, so was the private >>>server itself. When working for the gummint on gummint time one really >>>should use the gummint server. It might even be harder to hack than a >>>private server, who can say?

    Perhaps, but Washington has the right to access a server they own at
    any time they choose without a warrant.

    This is true, but government-owned mail servers have a whole host of >requirements that come down from the DHS, from two-factor authentication
    on down to particular header formats. It's a major pain in the neck
    (and it's why small governmental organizations will try and use
    unauthorized mail servers whenever they possibly can).

    One of the big deals is that email is considered a public record and >consequently needs to be archived. Its not just that it can be accessed
    by some other governmental organization, it all needs to be archived
    in specific ways. This is also a pain, but in the case of something
    like the Clinton server in question it's also very important for
    historical reference.

    Which all goes to show why the Trump/Republican attacks on Hillary for
    having her own server had a certain ... weight and solidity ... that
    the other attacks mostly lacked.

    One of the issues was whether anything on it was classified. I seem to
    recall that the story was that some things may have classified
    elsewhere, but had all been declassified on reaching the State Dept.
    Which sounds a bit ... loosy goosy ... to me, but then Trump was found
    to have undeniably classified paper documents at Mar-a-Lago after he
    left office. And, since they have it camera, tried to hide them when
    asked to give them up.

    Hillary's mail server seems almost ... quaint ... in comparison. Still
    not a good idea, however.
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bobbie Sellers@21:1/5 to Lynn McGuire on Mon Aug 19 16:59:10 2024
    On 8/19/24 15:37, Lynn McGuire wrote:
    On 8/19/2024 9:58 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
    On 18 Aug 2024 23:41:31 -0000, [email protected] (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

    The Horny Goat  <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Sat, 17 Aug 2024 09:12:15 -0700, Paul S Person
    <[email protected]d> wrote:

    Still probably a bad decision, though. But then, so was the private
    server itself. When working for the gummint on gummint time one really >>>>> should use the gummint server. It might even be harder to hack than a >>>>> private server, who can say?

    Perhaps, but Washington has the right to access a server they own at
    any time they choose without a warrant.

    This is true, but government-owned mail servers have a whole host of
    requirements that come down from the DHS, from two-factor authentication >>> on down to particular header formats.  It's a major pain in the neck
    (and it's why small governmental organizations will try and use
    unauthorized mail servers whenever they possibly can).

    One of the big deals is that email is considered a public record and
    consequently needs to be archived.  Its not just that it can be accessed >>> by some other governmental organization, it all needs to be archived
    in specific ways.  This is also a pain, but in the case of something
    like the Clinton server in question it's also very important for
    historical reference.

    Which all goes to show why the Trump/Republican attacks on Hillary for
    having her own server had a certain ... weight and solidity ... that
    the other attacks mostly lacked.

    One of the issues was whether anything on it was classified. I seem to
    recall that the story was that some things may have classified
    elsewhere, but had all been declassified on reaching the State Dept.
    Which sounds a bit ... loosy goosy ... to me, but then Trump was found
    to have undeniably classified paper documents at Mar-a-Lago after he
    left office. And, since they have it camera, tried to hide them when
    asked to give them up.

    Hillary's mail server seems almost ... quaint ... in comparison. Still
    not a good idea, however.

    Trump, as PRESIDENT of the USA, had the power to declassify ANYTHING he wanted to.  All those supposedly classified papers were declassified by
    him while he was President.

    He did not do that in any recognized form. He does not have
    the sole power to declassify documents. Not even in his Mind assuming
    that he has a mind which if he has a mind it has not been in evidence
    during his political career.


    And now the case has been thrown out of court due to the improper
    appointment of the prosecutor and the mismanagement of the papers seized
    from Trump's house.  Trump has now filed a civil lawsuit against the DOJ
    for $100 million due to the incompetence of the DOJ.

    Lynn

    No the case has been thrown out of court by an incompetent Trump appointed judge who is doing her best to protect her benefactor in
    violation of the Code of Ethics and the Constitution.

    bliss

    --
    b l i s s - S F 4 e v e r at D S L E x t r e m e dot com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to Lynn McGuire on Tue Aug 20 10:32:31 2024
    On Mon, 19 Aug 2024, Lynn McGuire wrote:

    On 8/19/2024 9:58 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
    On 18 Aug 2024 23:41:31 -0000, [email protected] (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

    The Horny Goat <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Sat, 17 Aug 2024 09:12:15 -0700, Paul S Person
    <[email protected]d> wrote:

    Still probably a bad decision, though. But then, so was the private
    server itself. When working for the gummint on gummint time one really >>>>> should use the gummint server. It might even be harder to hack than a >>>>> private server, who can say?

    Perhaps, but Washington has the right to access a server they own at
    any time they choose without a warrant.

    This is true, but government-owned mail servers have a whole host of
    requirements that come down from the DHS, from two-factor authentication >>> on down to particular header formats. It's a major pain in the neck
    (and it's why small governmental organizations will try and use
    unauthorized mail servers whenever they possibly can).

    One of the big deals is that email is considered a public record and
    consequently needs to be archived. Its not just that it can be accessed >>> by some other governmental organization, it all needs to be archived
    in specific ways. This is also a pain, but in the case of something
    like the Clinton server in question it's also very important for
    historical reference.

    Which all goes to show why the Trump/Republican attacks on Hillary for
    having her own server had a certain ... weight and solidity ... that
    the other attacks mostly lacked.

    One of the issues was whether anything on it was classified. I seem to
    recall that the story was that some things may have classified
    elsewhere, but had all been declassified on reaching the State Dept.
    Which sounds a bit ... loosy goosy ... to me, but then Trump was found
    to have undeniably classified paper documents at Mar-a-Lago after he
    left office. And, since they have it camera, tried to hide them when
    asked to give them up.

    Hillary's mail server seems almost ... quaint ... in comparison. Still
    not a good idea, however.

    Trump, as PRESIDENT of the USA, had the power to declassify ANYTHING he wanted to. All those supposedly classified papers were declassified by him while he was President.

    And now the case has been thrown out of court due to the improper appointment of the prosecutor and the mismanagement of the papers seized from Trump's house. Trump has now filed a civil lawsuit against the DOJ for $100 million due to the incompetence of the DOJ.

    Lynn


    Really? That's great news! Probably that is why european news have
    completely stopped reporting on it. It was only news worthy once things
    looked bad for Trump. Any eventual victories for Trump are seldom, or
    never reported.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Chris Buckley@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Tue Aug 20 11:35:18 2024
    On 2024-08-20, D <[email protected]> wrote:


    On Mon, 19 Aug 2024, Lynn McGuire wrote:

    On 8/19/2024 9:58 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
    On 18 Aug 2024 23:41:31 -0000, [email protected] (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

    The Horny Goat <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Sat, 17 Aug 2024 09:12:15 -0700, Paul S Person
    <[email protected]d> wrote:

    Still probably a bad decision, though. But then, so was the private >>>>>> server itself. When working for the gummint on gummint time one really >>>>>> should use the gummint server. It might even be harder to hack than a >>>>>> private server, who can say?

    Perhaps, but Washington has the right to access a server they own at >>>>> any time they choose without a warrant.

    This is true, but government-owned mail servers have a whole host of
    requirements that come down from the DHS, from two-factor authentication >>>> on down to particular header formats. It's a major pain in the neck
    (and it's why small governmental organizations will try and use
    unauthorized mail servers whenever they possibly can).

    One of the big deals is that email is considered a public record and
    consequently needs to be archived. Its not just that it can be accessed >>>> by some other governmental organization, it all needs to be archived
    in specific ways. This is also a pain, but in the case of something
    like the Clinton server in question it's also very important for
    historical reference.

    Which all goes to show why the Trump/Republican attacks on Hillary for
    having her own server had a certain ... weight and solidity ... that
    the other attacks mostly lacked.

    One of the issues was whether anything on it was classified. I seem to
    recall that the story was that some things may have classified
    elsewhere, but had all been declassified on reaching the State Dept.
    Which sounds a bit ... loosy goosy ... to me, but then Trump was found
    to have undeniably classified paper documents at Mar-a-Lago after he
    left office. And, since they have it camera, tried to hide them when
    asked to give them up.

    Hillary's mail server seems almost ... quaint ... in comparison. Still
    not a good idea, however.

    Trump, as PRESIDENT of the USA, had the power to declassify ANYTHING he
    wanted to. All those supposedly classified papers were declassified by him >> while he was President.

    And now the case has been thrown out of court due to the improper appointment
    of the prosecutor and the mismanagement of the papers seized from Trump's
    house. Trump has now filed a civil lawsuit against the DOJ for $100 million >> due to the incompetence of the DOJ.

    Lynn


    Really? That's great news! Probably that is why european news have
    completely stopped reporting on it. It was only news worthy once things looked bad for Trump. Any eventual victories for Trump are seldom, or
    never reported.

    The charge will undoubtedly be back. I regard it as the only
    legitimate prosecution of the major ones against Trump. He deserves at
    least a slap on the wrist for his disregarding of classifications. It
    doesn't deserve the attention the Democrats have focused on it, but
    that's politics (and how the Democrats persuaded the FBI to go full
    SWAT mode for the seizing of documents is undetermined, but obviously
    a great political success for them.)

    The case got thrown out until a different special prosecutor is appointed.
    The one appointed is legitimate according to Department of Justice's
    rules, but other laws strongly imply that he needed to be approved by
    Congress at some point in his life (and all other special prosecutors have been.) It all depends on definitions, as so many things do.

    Chris

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Paul S Person@21:1/5 to Chris Buckley on Tue Aug 20 08:36:21 2024
    On 20 Aug 2024 11:35:18 GMT, Chris Buckley <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 2024-08-20, D <[email protected]> wrote:


    On Mon, 19 Aug 2024, Lynn McGuire wrote:

    On 8/19/2024 9:58 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
    On 18 Aug 2024 23:41:31 -0000, [email protected] (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

    The Horny Goat <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Sat, 17 Aug 2024 09:12:15 -0700, Paul S Person
    <[email protected]d> wrote:

    Still probably a bad decision, though. But then, so was the private >>>>>>> server itself. When working for the gummint on gummint time one really >>>>>>> should use the gummint server. It might even be harder to hack than a >>>>>>> private server, who can say?

    Perhaps, but Washington has the right to access a server they own at >>>>>> any time they choose without a warrant.

    This is true, but government-owned mail servers have a whole host of >>>>> requirements that come down from the DHS, from two-factor authentication >>>>> on down to particular header formats. It's a major pain in the neck >>>>> (and it's why small governmental organizations will try and use
    unauthorized mail servers whenever they possibly can).

    One of the big deals is that email is considered a public record and >>>>> consequently needs to be archived. Its not just that it can be accessed >>>>> by some other governmental organization, it all needs to be archived >>>>> in specific ways. This is also a pain, but in the case of something >>>>> like the Clinton server in question it's also very important for
    historical reference.

    Which all goes to show why the Trump/Republican attacks on Hillary for >>>> having her own server had a certain ... weight and solidity ... that
    the other attacks mostly lacked.

    One of the issues was whether anything on it was classified. I seem to >>>> recall that the story was that some things may have classified
    elsewhere, but had all been declassified on reaching the State Dept.
    Which sounds a bit ... loosy goosy ... to me, but then Trump was found >>>> to have undeniably classified paper documents at Mar-a-Lago after he
    left office. And, since they have it camera, tried to hide them when
    asked to give them up.

    Hillary's mail server seems almost ... quaint ... in comparison. Still >>>> not a good idea, however.

    Trump, as PRESIDENT of the USA, had the power to declassify ANYTHING he >>> wanted to. All those supposedly classified papers were declassified by him
    while he was President.

    And now the case has been thrown out of court due to the improper appointment
    of the prosecutor and the mismanagement of the papers seized from Trump's >>> house. Trump has now filed a civil lawsuit against the DOJ for $100 million
    due to the incompetence of the DOJ.

    Lynn


    Really? That's great news! Probably that is why european news have
    completely stopped reporting on it. It was only news worthy once things
    looked bad for Trump. Any eventual victories for Trump are seldom, or
    never reported.

    The charge will undoubtedly be back. I regard it as the only
    legitimate prosecution of the major ones against Trump. He deserves at
    least a slap on the wrist for his disregarding of classifications. It >doesn't deserve the attention the Democrats have focused on it, but
    that's politics (and how the Democrats persuaded the FBI to go full
    SWAT mode for the seizing of documents is undetermined, but obviously
    a great political success for them.)

    They followed their normal procedures, including the normal statement
    on use of deadly force, for serving search warrants. You need to
    understand that anything that Trump and/or his defenders assert is a
    lie. They lie like a rug (which lies by nature).

    And it was a great success for the Federal Archives and the security
    agencies whose secrets were being stored in boxes in the bathroom, and
    a great defeat to Putin and others whom Trump favors over the USA (the
    list of these scumbags is quite long).

    The case got thrown out until a different special prosecutor is appointed. >The one appointed is legitimate according to Department of Justice's
    rules, but other laws strongly imply that he needed to be approved by >Congress at some point in his life (and all other special prosecutors have >been.) It all depends on definitions, as so many things do.

    Or the Supreme Court (and it hasn't even been decided by a three-judge
    panel of the Appeals Court, so it will take a while) determines that
    it doesn't matter what Thomas' 1%-er wants, the appointment was valid
    and the case is not dismissed.

    But you are correct -- they could distinguish between a Special
    Prosecutor with no prior office and one previously confirmed by
    Congress for some office. This is a distinction which bodes ill for
    young Biden's effort to make the same argument in his case.
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Paul S Person@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Tue Aug 20 08:42:55 2024
    On Mon, 19 Aug 2024 17:37:28 -0500, Lynn McGuire
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 8/19/2024 9:58 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
    On 18 Aug 2024 23:41:31 -0000, [email protected] (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

    The Horny Goat <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Sat, 17 Aug 2024 09:12:15 -0700, Paul S Person
    <[email protected]d> wrote:

    Still probably a bad decision, though. But then, so was the private
    server itself. When working for the gummint on gummint time one really >>>>> should use the gummint server. It might even be harder to hack than a >>>>> private server, who can say?

    Perhaps, but Washington has the right to access a server they own at
    any time they choose without a warrant.

    This is true, but government-owned mail servers have a whole host of
    requirements that come down from the DHS, from two-factor authentication >>> on down to particular header formats. It's a major pain in the neck
    (and it's why small governmental organizations will try and use
    unauthorized mail servers whenever they possibly can).

    One of the big deals is that email is considered a public record and
    consequently needs to be archived. Its not just that it can be accessed >>> by some other governmental organization, it all needs to be archived
    in specific ways. This is also a pain, but in the case of something
    like the Clinton server in question it's also very important for
    historical reference.

    Which all goes to show why the Trump/Republican attacks on Hillary for
    having her own server had a certain ... weight and solidity ... that
    the other attacks mostly lacked.

    One of the issues was whether anything on it was classified. I seem to
    recall that the story was that some things may have classified
    elsewhere, but had all been declassified on reaching the State Dept.
    Which sounds a bit ... loosy goosy ... to me, but then Trump was found
    to have undeniably classified paper documents at Mar-a-Lago after he
    left office. And, since they have it camera, tried to hide them when
    asked to give them up.

    Hillary's mail server seems almost ... quaint ... in comparison. Still
    not a good idea, however.

    Trump, as PRESIDENT of the USA, had the power to declassify ANYTHING he >wanted to. All those supposedly classified papers were declassified by
    him while he was President.

    And now the case has been thrown out of court due to the improper >appointment of the prosecutor and the mismanagement of the papers seized >from Trump's house. Trump has now filed a civil lawsuit against the DOJ
    for $100 million due to the incompetence of the DOJ.

    I'm hoping this is satire, because the only part that /might/ work is
    that a new Special Prosecutor, one appointed in accordance with the
    eventual Supreme Court decision, might be needed.

    Or the case could simply be assigned to the local Federal Prosecutor
    in Florida. An /ordinary/ prosecutor, already confirmed by Congress
    (if that is required for that particular office).

    Heck, they could assign to an eager and ambition 3rd Assistant
    Prosecutor they just hired who needs no Congressional approval and see
    how Trump likes being prosecuted by a snot-nosed brat.

    The rest of what you said is nonsense, as has been stated by the
    people who actually know how this works. Some documents can /never/ be declassified because of their topic. And their are procedures to
    follow which Trump, of course, did not.

    The civil lawsuit will go nowhere. If a trial actually occurred and
    the jury actually found that Trump was not guilty because he had
    declassified everything /then/ a lawsuit might work.

    So, again, I hope you are being sarcastic. In which case, I appreciate
    the humor, I really do.
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Titus G@21:1/5 to Paul S Person on Thu Aug 22 17:06:46 2024
    On 18/08/24 04:36, Paul S Person wrote:
    On Sat, 17 Aug 2024 16:48:56 +1200, Titus G <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 8/16/2024 8:40 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
    snip

    And who ever said Chrstian Nationalism had anything to do with Jesus
    Christ, who clearly stated that his kingdom is /not/ of this world?

    much snippage for brevity
    If you also agree that Western cultures worship of commercialism,
    including borrowing and lending, of Christmas also has nothing to do
    with Jesus Christ, it is not too difficult to realise that most
    Christians are brilliant if unknowing hypocrites.

    snip
    The claim that we "worship" commercialism is one I have never
    understood.

    With hindsight, my choice of the word "worship" was foolish as it was
    extreme. My point was that Jesus, crucified about a week after his
    terrorist gang of twelve violently invaded and assaulted Temple officials/contractors carrying out the Temple's commercial activities,
    stood for the exact opposite of commercialism which is the real emphasis
    of the Christian's Christmas.

    snip

    The NZ Prime Minister, (who until recently spelt cat with a k), is a
    devout member of some weird USA Christian cult that preaches that Jesus
    Christ's kingdom is on earth right now and that the righteous believers
    like himself, are those being rewarded right now with monetary wealth.

    snip
    As others have noted, the cult is one of the "prosperity gospel"
    groups. This works well for the leader, who gets lots of money from
    his followers, but not so well for the followers, who may wait their
    entire lives for their reward. The leaders are among the guys you may
    have read about who have golden cars and very large mansions as a
    result of the money they rake in. The end up in the news because the
    IRS tends to get after them because they register as Churches for tax purposes, and there are expectations that go along with that type of non-profit organization involving where the money goes.

    That was interesting. Unsubstantiated rumour is that the current NZ
    prime minister's rise to a management position and wealth in the USA was
    due to his religious connections as he has been completely useless as a politician behaving like a CEO surrounded by yes men.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Paul S Person@21:1/5 to Titus G on Thu Aug 22 09:03:11 2024
    On Thu, 22 Aug 2024 17:06:46 +1200, Titus G <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 18/08/24 04:36, Paul S Person wrote:
    On Sat, 17 Aug 2024 16:48:56 +1200, Titus G <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 8/16/2024 8:40 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
    snip

    And who ever said Chrstian Nationalism had anything to do with Jesus >>>>> Christ, who clearly stated that his kingdom is /not/ of this world?

    much snippage for brevity
    If you also agree that Western cultures worship of commercialism,
    including borrowing and lending, of Christmas also has nothing to do
    with Jesus Christ, it is not too difficult to realise that most
    Christians are brilliant if unknowing hypocrites.

    snip
    The claim that we "worship" commercialism is one I have never
    understood.

    With hindsight, my choice of the word "worship" was foolish as it was >extreme. My point was that Jesus, crucified about a week after his
    terrorist gang of twelve violently invaded and assaulted Temple >officials/contractors carrying out the Temple's commercial activities,
    stood for the exact opposite of commercialism which is the real emphasis
    of the Christian's Christmas.

    Which would be a fine point, were it not for the fact that the
    Christian Christmas involves only /one/ Gift. All other gifts are
    (well, should be) references to that one.

    A fair number of Christians are as disgusted by its commercialization
    as you appear to be.

    IOW, it can be argued that it is not the /Christian's/ Christmas that
    is commercialized. Which is why it is more commonly called "the
    Holiday Season", and starts (at latest) the day after Thanksgiving and
    extends to (at earliest) New Year's Day. That is to say, I don't think
    it's been extended to the day after Halloween or Epiphany. Yet.

    snip

    The NZ Prime Minister, (who until recently spelt cat with a k), is a
    devout member of some weird USA Christian cult that preaches that Jesus
    Christ's kingdom is on earth right now and that the righteous believers
    like himself, are those being rewarded right now with monetary wealth.

    snip
    As others have noted, the cult is one of the "prosperity gospel"
    groups. This works well for the leader, who gets lots of money from
    his followers, but not so well for the followers, who may wait their
    entire lives for their reward. The leaders are among the guys you may
    have read about who have golden cars and very large mansions as a
    result of the money they rake in. The end up in the news because the
    IRS tends to get after them because they register as Churches for tax
    purposes, and there are expectations that go along with that type of
    non-profit organization involving where the money goes.

    That was interesting. Unsubstantiated rumour is that the current NZ
    prime minister's rise to a management position and wealth in the USA was
    due to his religious connections as he has been completely useless as a >politician behaving like a CEO surrounded by yes men.
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mad Hamish@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Fri Aug 23 17:09:09 2024
    On Mon, 19 Aug 2024 17:37:28 -0500, Lynn McGuire
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 8/19/2024 9:58 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
    On 18 Aug 2024 23:41:31 -0000, [email protected] (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

    The Horny Goat <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Sat, 17 Aug 2024 09:12:15 -0700, Paul S Person
    <[email protected]d> wrote:

    Still probably a bad decision, though. But then, so was the private
    server itself. When working for the gummint on gummint time one really >>>>> should use the gummint server. It might even be harder to hack than a >>>>> private server, who can say?

    Perhaps, but Washington has the right to access a server they own at
    any time they choose without a warrant.

    This is true, but government-owned mail servers have a whole host of
    requirements that come down from the DHS, from two-factor authentication >>> on down to particular header formats. It's a major pain in the neck
    (and it's why small governmental organizations will try and use
    unauthorized mail servers whenever they possibly can).

    One of the big deals is that email is considered a public record and
    consequently needs to be archived. Its not just that it can be accessed >>> by some other governmental organization, it all needs to be archived
    in specific ways. This is also a pain, but in the case of something
    like the Clinton server in question it's also very important for
    historical reference.

    Which all goes to show why the Trump/Republican attacks on Hillary for
    having her own server had a certain ... weight and solidity ... that
    the other attacks mostly lacked.

    One of the issues was whether anything on it was classified. I seem to
    recall that the story was that some things may have classified
    elsewhere, but had all been declassified on reaching the State Dept.
    Which sounds a bit ... loosy goosy ... to me, but then Trump was found
    to have undeniably classified paper documents at Mar-a-Lago after he
    left office. And, since they have it camera, tried to hide them when
    asked to give them up.

    Hillary's mail server seems almost ... quaint ... in comparison. Still
    not a good idea, however.

    Trump, as PRESIDENT of the USA, had the power to declassify ANYTHING he >wanted to.

    'In all cases, however, a formal procedure is required so governmental
    agencies know with certainty what has been declassified and decisions memorialized. A federal appeals court in a 2020 Freedom of Information
    Act case, New York Times v. CIA, underscored that point:
    �Declassification cannot occur unless designated officials follow
    specified procedures,� the court said.'

    All those supposedly classified papers were declassified by
    him while he was President.

    No they weren't
    as he acknowledges in a transcipt of a meeting where he was showing
    people papers he'd taken

    https://abcnews.go.com/US/secret-information-trump-audio-recording-talks-declassifying-documents/story?id=99960824
    Trump is heard on the audio recording saying, as described to ABC
    News, "As president I could have declassified, but now I can't."

    "Except it is like, highly confidential. Secret. This is secret
    information. Look, look at this. This was done by the military and
    given to me,"

    "Well, with Milley -- uh, let me see that, I'll show you an example.
    He said that I wanted to attack Iran. Isn't that amazing? I have a big
    pile of papers, this thing just came up. Look. This was him. They
    presented me this -- this is off the record, but -- they presented me
    this. This was him. This was the Defense Department and him,"


    And now the case has been thrown out of court due to the improper
    appointment of the prosecutor

    No, the Trump appointed judge has decided that the appoinment of the
    Special Counsel was improperly selected
    A judgement that goes against decades of precedent
    �The dismissal of the case deviates from the uniform conclusion of all
    previous courts to have considered the issue that the Attorney General
    is statutorily authorized to appoint a Special Counsel,"

    and the mismanagement of the papers seized
    from Trump's house.

    Bullshit

    Trump has now filed a civil lawsuit against the DOJ
    for $100 million due to the incompetence of the DOJ.

    Sure, Trump suing somebody just proves there's a lawyer dumb enough to
    take his case and hope they'll eventually get paid...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Paul S Person@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Fri Aug 23 08:15:21 2024
    On Fri, 23 Aug 2024 17:09:09 +1000, Mad Hamish <[email protected]> wrote:

    On Mon, 19 Aug 2024 17:37:28 -0500, Lynn McGuire
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 8/19/2024 9:58 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
    On 18 Aug 2024 23:41:31 -0000, [email protected] (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

    The Horny Goat <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Sat, 17 Aug 2024 09:12:15 -0700, Paul S Person
    <[email protected]d> wrote:

    Still probably a bad decision, though. But then, so was the private >>>>>> server itself. When working for the gummint on gummint time one really >>>>>> should use the gummint server. It might even be harder to hack than a >>>>>> private server, who can say?

    Perhaps, but Washington has the right to access a server they own at >>>>> any time they choose without a warrant.

    This is true, but government-owned mail servers have a whole host of
    requirements that come down from the DHS, from two-factor authentication >>>> on down to particular header formats. It's a major pain in the neck
    (and it's why small governmental organizations will try and use
    unauthorized mail servers whenever they possibly can).

    One of the big deals is that email is considered a public record and
    consequently needs to be archived. Its not just that it can be accessed >>>> by some other governmental organization, it all needs to be archived
    in specific ways. This is also a pain, but in the case of something
    like the Clinton server in question it's also very important for
    historical reference.

    Which all goes to show why the Trump/Republican attacks on Hillary for
    having her own server had a certain ... weight and solidity ... that
    the other attacks mostly lacked.

    One of the issues was whether anything on it was classified. I seem to
    recall that the story was that some things may have classified
    elsewhere, but had all been declassified on reaching the State Dept.
    Which sounds a bit ... loosy goosy ... to me, but then Trump was found
    to have undeniably classified paper documents at Mar-a-Lago after he
    left office. And, since they have it camera, tried to hide them when
    asked to give them up.

    Hillary's mail server seems almost ... quaint ... in comparison. Still
    not a good idea, however.

    Trump, as PRESIDENT of the USA, had the power to declassify ANYTHING he >>wanted to.

    'In all cases, however, a formal procedure is required so governmental >agencies know with certainty what has been declassified and decisions >memorialized. A federal appeals court in a 2020 Freedom of Information
    Act case, New York Times v. CIA, underscored that point:
    �Declassification cannot occur unless designated officials follow
    specified procedures,� the court said.'

    All those supposedly classified papers were declassified by
    him while he was President.

    No they weren't
    as he acknowledges in a transcipt of a meeting where he was showing
    people papers he'd taken

    https://abcnews.go.com/US/secret-information-trump-audio-recording-talks-declassifying-documents/story?id=99960824
    Trump is heard on the audio recording saying, as described to ABC
    News, "As president I could have declassified, but now I can't."

    "Except it is like, highly confidential. Secret. This is secret
    information. Look, look at this. This was done by the military and
    given to me,"

    "Well, with Milley -- uh, let me see that, I'll show you an example.
    He said that I wanted to attack Iran. Isn't that amazing? I have a big
    pile of papers, this thing just came up. Look. This was him. They
    presented me this -- this is off the record, but -- they presented me
    this. This was him. This was the Defense Department and him,"


    And now the case has been thrown out of court due to the improper >>appointment of the prosecutor

    No, the Trump appointed judge has decided that the appoinment of the
    Special Counsel was improperly selected
    A judgement that goes against decades of precedent
    �The dismissal of the case deviates from the uniform conclusion of all >previous courts to have considered the issue that the Attorney General
    is statutorily authorized to appoint a Special Counsel,"

    and the mismanagement of the papers seized
    from Trump's house.

    Bullshit

    Trump has now filed a civil lawsuit against the DOJ
    for $100 million due to the incompetence of the DOJ.

    Sure, Trump suing somebody just proves there's a lawyer dumb enough to
    take his case and hope they'll eventually get paid...

    Or one smart enough to insist on getting 1/3d off the top.
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Paul S Person@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Fri Sep 6 09:28:58 2024
    On Fri, 6 Sep 2024 09:13:41 -0500, "Michael F. Stemper" <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 22/08/2024 11.03, Paul S Person wrote:

    IOW, it can be argued that it is not the /Christian's/ Christmas that
    is commercialized. Which is why it is more commonly called "the
    Holiday Season", and starts (at latest) the day after Thanksgiving and
    extends to (at earliest) New Year's Day. That is to say, I don't think
    it's been extended to the day after Halloween or Epiphany. Yet.

    The Christmas season runs to Epiphany. ><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Days_of_Christmas.

    The religious one (and its cultural attachments) does, to be sure.
    That is why each year I listen to one movement of JS Bach's Christmas
    Oratorio on as close to the proper day as possible, and then take down
    my decorations (which went up on Christmas eve).

    But I was talking about the /commercial/ version, with all its madness
    building to the 25th. Amazon will warn you if your order won't arrive
    before Dec 25th, aka The End of the World if your kid doesn't get the
    toy you ordered; I don't think it warns you the same way about Jan 6.
    "Epiphany tree" and "Epiphany gifts" are not terms I recall seeing
    very often.

    Similarly, while the /commercial/ season begins the day after
    Thanksgiving (or at least did until relatively recently), the
    /religious/ season in a sense starts with the First Sunday in Advent.

    These are at about the same time, but the commercial one was timed to
    not detract from Thanksgiving, while the religious one serves a
    different purpose.
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Paul S Person@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Sat Sep 7 09:15:47 2024
    On Fri, 6 Sep 2024 15:00:07 -0400, Cryptoengineer
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 9/6/2024 12:28 PM, Paul S Person wrote:
    On Fri, 6 Sep 2024 09:13:41 -0500, "Michael F. Stemper"
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 22/08/2024 11.03, Paul S Person wrote:

    IOW, it can be argued that it is not the /Christian's/ Christmas that
    is commercialized. Which is why it is more commonly called "the
    Holiday Season", and starts (at latest) the day after Thanksgiving and >>>> extends to (at earliest) New Year's Day. That is to say, I don't think >>>> it's been extended to the day after Halloween or Epiphany. Yet.

    The Christmas season runs to Epiphany.
    <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Days_of_Christmas.

    The religious one (and its cultural attachments) does, to be sure.
    That is why each year I listen to one movement of JS Bach's Christmas
    Oratorio on as close to the proper day as possible, and then take down
    my decorations (which went up on Christmas eve).

    But I was talking about the /commercial/ version, with all its madness
    building to the 25th. Amazon will warn you if your order won't arrive
    before Dec 25th, aka The End of the World if your kid doesn't get the
    toy you ordered; I don't think it warns you the same way about Jan 6.
    "Epiphany tree" and "Epiphany gifts" are not terms I recall seeing
    very often.

    Similarly, while the /commercial/ season begins the day after
    Thanksgiving (or at least did until relatively recently), the
    /religious/ season in a sense starts with the First Sunday in Advent.

    These are at about the same time, but the commercial one was timed to
    not detract from Thanksgiving, while the religious one serves a
    different purpose.

    The 'Holiday Season' now starts with Halloween. I'm seeing tons of
    Halloween themed bricabrac in stores, and Hallmark is trying to
    convince me to send out 'Halloween Cards".

    That's happened since ... well, since before I came along.

    At least for candy and plastic pumpkins and cosumes. Hallmark's
    efforts are perhaps an innovation. But, hey, selling cards is what
    they /do/, and who's to say they haven't tried it before?

    For Thanksgiving they still seem to be selling mostly food. Much of it requiring extensive preparation and cooking, although a diligent
    search will usually find something acceptable that can be microwaved.
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Paul S Person@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Sat Sep 7 09:37:47 2024
    On Sat, 7 Sep 2024 08:12:19 -0500, "Michael F. Stemper" <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 06/09/2024 11.28, Paul S Person wrote:
    On Fri, 6 Sep 2024 09:13:41 -0500, "Michael F. Stemper"
    <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 22/08/2024 11.03, Paul S Person wrote:

    IOW, it can be argued that it is not the /Christian's/ Christmas that
    is commercialized. Which is why it is more commonly called "the
    Holiday Season", and starts (at latest) the day after Thanksgiving and >>>> extends to (at earliest) New Year's Day. That is to say, I don't think >>>> it's been extended to the day after Halloween or Epiphany. Yet.

    The Christmas season runs to Epiphany.
    <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Days_of_Christmas.

    The religious one (and its cultural attachments) does, to be sure.
    That is why each year I listen to one movement of JS Bach's Christmas
    Oratorio on as close to the proper day as possible, and then take down
    my decorations (which went up on Christmas eve).

    But I was talking about the /commercial/ version, with all its madness
    building to the 25th.

    And then all Christmas music disappears from the radio on the 26th. Got it.

    Just one of the reasons I don't listen to music on the radio.

    And "Christmas music" is apt. I once heard a well-known Christmas song
    or carol (something on the order of, but not necessarily, "Oh, Little
    Town of Bethlehem") sung by a Country-Western artist. My reaction:
    "Why's she singing it as a dirge?".

    The main reason I don't listen to music on the radio is that it isn't
    /my/ music, it's someone else's music and prefer to listen to the
    music I have assembled in the order I have put it.

    I don't think it warns you the same way about Jan 6.
    "Epiphany tree" and "Epiphany gifts" are not terms I recall seeing
    very often.

    Not in the US, but I'm pretty sure that in Eastern Europe, Epiphany is
    more significant than is Christmas.

    It's when the Three Magi finally arrived in Bethlehem. As opposed to
    the Shepherds, who made on the night of the 24th/25th. Any Orthodox
    Church anywhere can be expected to regard it that way.

    They also, IIRC, have a different date for Easter most years. As Tevye
    says, "Tradition".

    Similarly, while the /commercial/ season begins the day after
    Thanksgiving (or at least did until relatively recently), the
    /religious/ season in a sense starts with the First Sunday in Advent.

    No, the First Sunday of Advent is when the season of Advent starts. The >(religious) Christmas season starts on December 25, or for traditionalists, >the evening of December 24.

    You are correct that Advent and Christmas are different seasons in the
    Church Year. But the first prepares for Christmas at the same time the commercial Christmas is trying to get everyone to -- prepare for
    Christmas.

    Examination of Advent Calendars online shows that some end on 12/25,
    that is, Christmas Day. Not Christmas Eve or 12/23, whichever they
    regard as the last day before the Christmas season.

    (The ones online appear to be much more elaborate than the ones I
    remember. Those were cardboard, and had Scripture verses hidden behind
    the flaps. The lack of jelly beans etc made it much easier to open
    just one flap each day.)
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to Paul S Person on Sat Sep 7 23:43:33 2024
    On Sat, 7 Sep 2024, Paul S Person wrote:

    The main reason I don't listen to music on the radio is that it isn't
    /my/ music, it's someone else's music and prefer to listen to the
    music I have assembled in the order I have put it.

    But how do you discover new music if you only like to listen to your
    music in your order?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Paul S Person@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Sun Sep 8 08:09:21 2024
    On Sat, 7 Sep 2024 23:43:33 +0200, D <[email protected]> wrote:



    On Sat, 7 Sep 2024, Paul S Person wrote:

    The main reason I don't listen to music on the radio is that it isn't
    /my/ music, it's someone else's music and prefer to listen to the
    music I have assembled in the order I have put it.

    But how do you discover new music if you only like to listen to your
    music in your order?

    What new music?

    Actually, I also watch lots of films, and they generally have music,
    including songs from more recent eras. So I have had some exposure to
    forms current at various points after my collection ends.

    I have 9,141 MP3 files (organized into a two-tier system of
    genre/(artist, group, composer, ...) occupying 25.1 GB. When the
    limitations of my player's "random by album" mode became apparent, it
    took a lot of research and effort to get them into a Master Playlist.
    I really have no particular desire to expand this.
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Horny Goat@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Sun Sep 15 13:15:16 2024
    On Fri, 06 Sep 2024 09:28:58 -0700, Paul S Person
    <[email protected]d> wrote:

    On Fri, 6 Sep 2024 09:13:41 -0500, "Michael F. Stemper" ><[email protected]> wrote:

    On 22/08/2024 11.03, Paul S Person wrote:

    IOW, it can be argued that it is not the /Christian's/ Christmas that
    is commercialized. Which is why it is more commonly called "the
    Holiday Season", and starts (at latest) the day after Thanksgiving and
    extends to (at earliest) New Year's Day. That is to say, I don't think
    it's been extended to the day after Halloween or Epiphany. Yet.

    The Christmas season runs to Epiphany. >><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Days_of_Christmas.

    The religious one (and its cultural attachments) does, to be sure.
    That is why each year I listen to one movement of JS Bach's Christmas >Oratorio on as close to the proper day as possible, and then take down
    my decorations (which went up on Christmas eve).

    In our family we usually got our tree up about a week before (though
    last year only on Christmas Eve) but the twelveth day is when we were
    taught the tree was SUPPOSED to come down. Our couch is right next to
    the tree's normal location so we didn't but decorations on one side of
    the tree to prevent the cat knocking the ornaments down...since kitty
    normally sits on that arm of the chair the rest of the year.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Paul S Person@21:1/5 to All on Mon Sep 16 08:43:17 2024
    On Sun, 15 Sep 2024 13:15:16 -0700, The Horny Goat <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    On Fri, 06 Sep 2024 09:28:58 -0700, Paul S Person ><[email protected]d> wrote:

    On Fri, 6 Sep 2024 09:13:41 -0500, "Michael F. Stemper" >><[email protected]> wrote:

    On 22/08/2024 11.03, Paul S Person wrote:

    IOW, it can be argued that it is not the /Christian's/ Christmas that
    is commercialized. Which is why it is more commonly called "the
    Holiday Season", and starts (at latest) the day after Thanksgiving and >>>> extends to (at earliest) New Year's Day. That is to say, I don't think >>>> it's been extended to the day after Halloween or Epiphany. Yet.

    The Christmas season runs to Epiphany. >>><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Days_of_Christmas.

    The religious one (and its cultural attachments) does, to be sure.
    That is why each year I listen to one movement of JS Bach's Christmas >>Oratorio on as close to the proper day as possible, and then take down
    my decorations (which went up on Christmas eve).

    In our family we usually got our tree up about a week before (though
    last year only on Christmas Eve) but the twelveth day is when we were
    taught the tree was SUPPOSED to come down. Our couch is right next to
    the tree's normal location so we didn't but decorations on one side of
    the tree to prevent the cat knocking the ornaments down...since kitty >normally sits on that arm of the chair the rest of the year.

    I don't remember the timing when I was growing up, but a week or so
    before sounds right (if only to give time to put the tinsel on one
    piece at a time, placed carefully -- /that/ I remember). After New
    Year's seems likely for disposing of the tree although it could have
    stretched to Epiphany.
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Horny Goat@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Wed Sep 18 09:07:31 2024
    On Mon, 16 Sep 2024 08:43:17 -0700, Paul S Person
    <[email protected]d> wrote:

    I don't remember the timing when I was growing up, but a week or so
    before sounds right (if only to give time to put the tinsel on one
    piece at a time, placed carefully -- /that/ I remember). After New
    Year's seems likely for disposing of the tree although it could have >stretched to Epiphany.

    We only used tinsel during years we had no cat - we had one incident
    where we found a piece of tinsel about 18" dangling from the cat - she
    had eaten it and let's just say the tinsel didn't stay in her litter
    box. We figured she could badly injure herself if it caught on
    something so didn't use it the following year (nor since).

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Horny Goat@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Wed Sep 18 09:09:49 2024
    On Mon, 16 Sep 2024 11:53:34 -0400, Cryptoengineer
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Last Christmas, my younger daughter came home and insisted
    on re-erecting the 8 footer. Of course, she did not take
    responsibility for putting the decoration away.

    Loved your story - my younger daughter lives in England (we're on the
    west coast of Canada) so we haven't had too many Christmases together
    during the 10 years since she emigrated (since she has a partner and
    his parents are MUCH closer than Canada; Brighton -> Dorchester)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Paul S Person@21:1/5 to All on Thu Sep 19 08:26:40 2024
    On Wed, 18 Sep 2024 09:07:31 -0700, The Horny Goat <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    On Mon, 16 Sep 2024 08:43:17 -0700, Paul S Person ><[email protected]d> wrote:

    I don't remember the timing when I was growing up, but a week or so
    before sounds right (if only to give time to put the tinsel on one
    piece at a time, placed carefully -- /that/ I remember). After New
    Year's seems likely for disposing of the tree although it could have >>stretched to Epiphany.

    We only used tinsel during years we had no cat - we had one incident
    where we found a piece of tinsel about 18" dangling from the cat - she
    had eaten it and let's just say the tinsel didn't stay in her litter
    box. We figured she could badly injure herself if it caught on
    something so didn't use it the following year (nor since).

    I only did it strand-by-strand when I was being watched. It wasn't
    /my/ obsession.

    Adults in the 50's -- they wanted something done, they told the kids
    to do it, and then they whined (at a minimum) when they didn't like
    the results.
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dudley Brooks@21:1/5 to The Horny Goat on Fri Sep 27 08:37:48 2024
    On 9/18/24 9:07 AM, The Horny Goat wrote:

    On Mon, 16 Sep 2024 08:43:17 -0700, Paul S Person <[email protected]d> wrote:

    I don't remember the timing when I was growing up, but a week or so
    before sounds right (if only to give time to put the tinsel on one
    piece at a time, placed carefully -- /that/ I remember). After New
    Year's seems likely for disposing of the tree although it could have
    stretched to Epiphany.

    We only used tinsel during years we had no cat - we had one incident
    where we found a piece of tinsel about 18" dangling from the cat - she
    had eaten it and let's just say the tinsel didn't stay in her litter
    box. We figured she could badly injure herself if it caught on
    something so didn't use it the following year (nor since).

    When I was in high school, we had the same thing happen with our fox
    terrier.

    Here's the worst part about *that* story:

    I had a new girlfriend, and my mother quickly let me invite her over for dinner. As entertainment, my mother decided to tell the fox terrier /
    tinsel story -- not the kind of story you usually tell at dinner ... and
    not the kind of story you imagine telling your girlfriend on a first date.

    The kicker: When telling the story, my mother absent-mindedly replaced
    the dog's name ... with *my* name!


    --
    Dudley Brooks, Artistic Director
    Run For Your Life! ... it's a dance company!
    San Francisco

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)