• (Off Topic) The Case for Mars by Robert Zubrin

    From James Nicoll@21:1/5 to All on Thu Jul 4 13:04:58 2024
    The Case for Mars by Robert Zubrin

    How America will put people on Mars by 2010!

    https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/so-crystal-clear

    Technically not SF, at least not intentionally.
    --
    My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
    My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
    My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
    My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From a425couple@21:1/5 to James Nicoll on Thu Jul 4 10:04:48 2024
    XPost: alt.fan.heinlein, rec.aviation.military

    On 7/4/24 06:04, James Nicoll wrote:
    The Case for Mars by Robert Zubrin

    How America will put people on Mars by 2010!

    https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/so-crystal-clear

    Technically not SF, at least not intentionally.

    James, your comment "Technically not SF, at least not intentionally."

    I was thinking the same thing this week while I was reading
    a recently acquired book:

    Entering Space: Creating a Spacefaring Civilization
    Paperback – August 7, 2000 by Robert Zubrin

    from https://www.amazon.com/Entering-Space-Creating-Spacefaring-Civilization/dp/1585420360

    "Sagan himself said of Zubrin's humans-to-Mars plan, "Bob Zubrin really,
    nearly alone, changed our thinking on this issue." With Entering Space,
    he takes us further, into the prospect of human expansion to the outer
    planets of our own solar system--and beyond."

    In the 1970s,,,, and even 2000, it seemed so close.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Savard@21:1/5 to Nicoll on Fri Jul 5 07:12:08 2024
    On Thu, 4 Jul 2024 13:04:58 -0000 (UTC), [email protected] (James
    Nicoll) wrote:

    The Case for Mars by Robert Zubrin

    How America will put people on Mars by 2010!

    https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/so-crystal-clear

    Technically not SF, at least not intentionally.

    I did notice how Zubrin handwaved away the question of radiation in
    space. Since atronauts are celebrated as heroes, there would be
    volunteers willing to put up with an enhanced cancer risk, so no
    problem.

    Just the other day, I was reading about how radiation and microgravity
    would shink people's kidneys so much that they couldn't survive a trip
    to Mars for that reason alone!

    I do have an answer for the skeptics - if radiation and microgravity
    are problems, then let's not put up with them on a trip to Mars. So,
    on my web site, I point out that an O'Neill space habitat could be
    improved by enclosing it in a wine-bottle shaped enclosure providing,
    if necessary, a couple metres worth of solid rock. And the opening of
    the wine bottle could point at a big slab of rock, with mirrors in
    between to direct concentrated sunlight to the habitat.

    Yes, radiation shielding makes cosmic rays worse... but only _up to a
    point_. As the existence of life on Earth proves.

    But if it is required to construct an enormous space habitat with gobs
    of lunar material to have a way to safely go to Mars... then it won't
    be _inexpensive_ to get there. Nothing at all like Zubrin's optimism,
    even if the skeptics who say it can _never_ be done are wrong.

    Helium-3, for use in space exploration, not for use on Earth, may well
    be an important reason for exploring the Moon. Deuterium on Mars? It
    is to laugh, but I only noticed that in James' column, not when I read
    Zubrin's book. Sadly, Mars isn't likely to have reserves of dilithium,
    or unobtanium (not titanium, which you can find on the Moon, but the
    stuff from Avatar)... or a library left behind by an ancient Martian civilization including plans for FTL spaceships.

    Mars gets hit by asteroids a lot more often than Earth. But if you're
    in an underground habitat instead of breathing the local air, an
    asteroid impact is a strictly _local_ catastrophe, not the global one
    the dinosaurs experienced on Earth. So there is a _real_ reason for
    settling Mars, and that's to ensure species survival. Underground
    habitats on Proxima Centauri b, despite the solar flares, as a way to
    survive both Sol and Alpha Centauri going off the Main Sequence, are
    also a good idea in my opinion.

    You could build similar underground habitats on Earth! Yes, but while
    they protect against many hazards to be found in space, they're not
    immune to the persistent efforts of an invading Russian or Chinese
    army.

    To me, though, the _biggest_ flaw in Zubrin's analysis is where he
    dismisses concern about back contamination. Pathogens evolve over
    millions of years to infect their hosts! We get hit by meteorites that
    were knocked off of Mars!

    He is right that we don't need to worry about Martian measles or
    Martian malaria. But what I'm worried about is Martian mold and
    Martian mildew.

    Eukaryotic cells from Mars, if they existed, wouldn't survive the
    journey to Earth on a meteor, so no, we haven't already been exposed
    to all potential Martian pathogens. And the _kind_ of Martian pathogen
    that could still prove to be a menace to life on Earth, despite not
    having millions of years to adapt to infecting Earthly life forms, is
    that which would simply ignore our utterly alien immune systems, and
    view us as walking piles of sugars (and _possibly_ amino acids).

    Sure, Mars is, with about 99.99% probability, utterly lifeless. But I
    have a *very* low tolerance for any level of risk that we might just
    turn the entire human population of Earth into green goo.

    John Savard

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Paul S Person@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Fri Jul 5 08:05:55 2024
    On Fri, 05 Jul 2024 07:12:08 -0600, John Savard
    <[email protected]d> wrote:

    On Thu, 4 Jul 2024 13:04:58 -0000 (UTC), [email protected] (James
    Nicoll) wrote:

    The Case for Mars by Robert Zubrin

    How America will put people on Mars by 2010!

    https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/so-crystal-clear

    Technically not SF, at least not intentionally.

    I did notice how Zubrin handwaved away the question of radiation in
    space. Since atronauts are celebrated as heroes, there would be
    volunteers willing to put up with an enhanced cancer risk, so no
    problem.

    Just the other day, I was reading about how radiation and microgravity
    would shink people's kidneys so much that they couldn't survive a trip
    to Mars for that reason alone!

    I do have an answer for the skeptics - if radiation and microgravity
    are problems, then let's not put up with them on a trip to Mars. So,
    on my web site, I point out that an O'Neill space habitat could be
    improved by enclosing it in a wine-bottle shaped enclosure providing,
    if necessary, a couple metres worth of solid rock. And the opening of
    the wine bottle could point at a big slab of rock, with mirrors in
    between to direct concentrated sunlight to the habitat.

    Yes, radiation shielding makes cosmic rays worse... but only _up to a
    point_. As the existence of life on Earth proves.

    But if it is required to construct an enormous space habitat with gobs
    of lunar material to have a way to safely go to Mars... then it won't
    be _inexpensive_ to get there. Nothing at all like Zubrin's optimism,
    even if the skeptics who say it can _never_ be done are wrong.

    You forgot the treadmill, to produce an equivalent of gravity.

    The first step is to colonize the Moon. And I mean /colonize/, not
    just establish a five-person outpost. Domes/caves, hundreds of people,
    lots of babies (it's much cheaper to grow the population that way than
    to import it from Earth), and, with any luck, in a few decades ships
    useable to colonize Mars.

    Large ships, holding thousands. Most of which stay on planet, while
    some crew the ship on its return. Multiple ships, so one lands every
    year. Colonize, as in domes/caves, thousands of people, lots of
    babies.

    As to doing it ... the simplest way to get it done is to convince a
    1%-er that doing this will make that 1%-er richer. They have the
    money, all they need is the motivation.

    Helium-3, for use in space exploration, not for use on Earth, may well
    be an important reason for exploring the Moon. Deuterium on Mars? It
    is to laugh, but I only noticed that in James' column, not when I read >Zubrin's book. Sadly, Mars isn't likely to have reserves of dilithium,
    or unobtanium (not titanium, which you can find on the Moon, but the
    stuff from Avatar)... or a library left behind by an ancient Martian >civilization including plans for FTL spaceships.

    Mars gets hit by asteroids a lot more often than Earth. But if you're
    in an underground habitat instead of breathing the local air, an
    asteroid impact is a strictly _local_ catastrophe, not the global one
    the dinosaurs experienced on Earth. So there is a _real_ reason for
    settling Mars, and that's to ensure species survival. Underground
    habitats on Proxima Centauri b, despite the solar flares, as a way to
    survive both Sol and Alpha Centauri going off the Main Sequence, are
    also a good idea in my opinion.

    You could build similar underground habitats on Earth! Yes, but while
    they protect against many hazards to be found in space, they're not
    immune to the persistent efforts of an invading Russian or Chinese
    army.

    To me, though, the _biggest_ flaw in Zubrin's analysis is where he
    dismisses concern about back contamination. Pathogens evolve over
    millions of years to infect their hosts! We get hit by meteorites that
    were knocked off of Mars!

    He is right that we don't need to worry about Martian measles or
    Martian malaria. But what I'm worried about is Martian mold and
    Martian mildew.

    Eukaryotic cells from Mars, if they existed, wouldn't survive the
    journey to Earth on a meteor, so no, we haven't already been exposed
    to all potential Martian pathogens. And the _kind_ of Martian pathogen
    that could still prove to be a menace to life on Earth, despite not
    having millions of years to adapt to infecting Earthly life forms, is
    that which would simply ignore our utterly alien immune systems, and
    view us as walking piles of sugars (and _possibly_ amino acids).

    Sure, Mars is, with about 99.99% probability, utterly lifeless. But I
    have a *very* low tolerance for any level of risk that we might just
    turn the entire human population of Earth into green goo.

    Well, that /would/ solve the Trump Problem.
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From James Nicoll@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Fri Jul 5 15:23:01 2024
    In article <[email protected]>,
    Paul S Person <[email protected]d> wrote:
    On Fri, 05 Jul 2024 07:12:08 -0600, John Savard ><[email protected]d> wrote:

    On Thu, 4 Jul 2024 13:04:58 -0000 (UTC), [email protected] (James
    Nicoll) wrote:

    The Case for Mars by Robert Zubrin

    How America will put people on Mars by 2010!

    https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/so-crystal-clear

    Technically not SF, at least not intentionally.

    I did notice how Zubrin handwaved away the question of radiation in
    space. Since atronauts are celebrated as heroes, there would be
    volunteers willing to put up with an enhanced cancer risk, so no
    problem.

    Just the other day, I was reading about how radiation and microgravity >>would shink people's kidneys so much that they couldn't survive a trip
    to Mars for that reason alone!

    I do have an answer for the skeptics - if radiation and microgravity
    are problems, then let's not put up with them on a trip to Mars. So,
    on my web site, I point out that an O'Neill space habitat could be
    improved by enclosing it in a wine-bottle shaped enclosure providing,
    if necessary, a couple metres worth of solid rock. And the opening of
    the wine bottle could point at a big slab of rock, with mirrors in
    between to direct concentrated sunlight to the habitat.

    Yes, radiation shielding makes cosmic rays worse... but only _up to a >>point_. As the existence of life on Earth proves.

    But if it is required to construct an enormous space habitat with gobs
    of lunar material to have a way to safely go to Mars... then it won't
    be _inexpensive_ to get there. Nothing at all like Zubrin's optimism,
    even if the skeptics who say it can _never_ be done are wrong.

    You forgot the treadmill, to produce an equivalent of gravity.

    The first step is to colonize the Moon. And I mean /colonize/, not
    just establish a five-person outpost. Domes/caves, hundreds of people,
    lots of babies (it's much cheaper to grow the population that way than
    to import it from Earth), and, with any luck, in a few decades ships
    useable to colonize Mars.

    An important question whose answer we don't know is "are humans able
    to bear viable kids in low gravity?" No kids, no colony.

    Mind you, 1/6th g is different from 1/3 but if there are issues with
    this on the Moon, it means we probably need to see if there would be
    issues on Mars (on the other hand, if there are no issues on the Moon,
    we can be more confident about kids on Mars). The trick might be sorting
    out problems that are gravity related from ones that are because of
    other factors like the unpleasant qualities of regolith creeping into
    the habs.

    (As far as I know, Martian regolith is not millions of tiny Aztec
    daggers, but it is toxic so you probably should avoid breathing it)

    As for asteroid impacts: the lack of air means if a big rock splashes
    debris, it will reach the ground intact, whereas on Earth small debris particles burn up. Of course, the catch is on Earth, the re-entering
    debris from a large impact will turn the sky into an oven, which is
    bad.
    --
    My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
    My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
    My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
    My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Savard@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Fri Jul 5 15:26:49 2024
    On Fri, 05 Jul 2024 08:05:55 -0700, Paul S Person
    <[email protected]d> wrote:

    You forgot the treadmill, to produce an equivalent of gravity.

    Inside the wine bottles would be rotating cylindrical habitats.

    The first step is to colonize the Moon. And I mean /colonize/, not
    just establish a five-person outpost.

    1/6 gravity isn't microgravity, but it's not what we're adapted for.
    So after there's _one_ orbiting colony with a rotating part with full
    gravity, I'm expecting they will mine the Moon by remote control, to
    the extent that AI can't do the mining autonomously.

    Again, though, I'm being _pessimistic_ about what humans can endure in
    order to show we can still explore space anyways.

    John Savard

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)