• Re: "My Real Children" by Jo Walton

    From Paul S Person@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Mon Mar 4 08:36:54 2024
    On Sun, 3 Mar 2024 23:52:55 +0000, Robert Carnegie
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 03/03/2024 22:01, Lynn McGuire wrote:
    "My Real Children" by Jo Walton
    �� https://www.amazon.com/My-Real-Children-Jo-Walton/dp/076533268X/

    A standalone alternate history fantasy novel about a 90 year old
    confused woman.� I read the well printed and well bound trade paperback
    published by Tor Books in 2014 that I bought on Amazon in 2017.

    Patricia Cowan is 90 years old and living in a nursing home in England.
    Her daily status chart differs between "confused today" and "very
    confused today".� Some days she remembers having four children and some
    days she remembers having three children.� Some days she remembers the
    bomb that killed President Kennedy in 1963 and some days she remembers
    the nuclear exchange that destroyed Miami and Kiev in 1963.

    My rating:� 5 out of 5 stars
    Amazon rating:� 4.2 out of 5 stars (489 reviews)

    The bomb that killed President Kennedy?
    Are you sure? Is she? Why am I assuming
    that Kennedy didn't die in the "limited
    nuclear exchange" timeline? Maybe because
    television science fiction comedy _Red Dwarf_
    had a "saved Kennedy, afterwards bad" episode?
    Not-dead Kennedy was a nuisance in
    Stephen Baxter's novel _Voyage_, too.

    Stephen King's _11/22/63: A Novel_ includes a version of Kennedy who
    is not assassinated and its results.

    They aren't pretty.
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From WolfFan@21:1/5 to Paul S Person on Mon Mar 4 13:29:57 2024
    On Mar 4, 2024, Paul S Person wrote
    (in article<[email protected]>):

    On Sun, 3 Mar 2024 23:52:55 +0000, Robert Carnegie
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 03/03/2024 22:01, Lynn McGuire wrote:
    "My Real Children" by Jo Walton https://www.amazon.com/My-Real-Children-Jo-Walton/dp/076533268X/

    A standalone alternate history fantasy novel about a 90 year old
    confused woman. I read the well printed and well bound trade paperback published by Tor Books in 2014 that I bought on Amazon in 2017.

    Patricia Cowan is 90 years old and living in a nursing home in England. Her daily status chart differs between "confused today" and "very confused today". Some days she remembers having four children and some days she remembers having three children. Some days she remembers the bomb that killed President Kennedy in 1963 and some days she remembers the nuclear exchange that destroyed Miami and Kiev in 1963.

    My rating: 5 out of 5 stars
    Amazon rating: 4.2 out of 5 stars (489 reviews)

    The bomb that killed President Kennedy?
    Are you sure? Is she? Why am I assuming
    that Kennedy didn't die in the "limited
    nuclear exchange" timeline? Maybe because
    television science fiction comedy _Red Dwarf_
    had a "saved Kennedy, afterwards bad" episode?
    Not-dead Kennedy was a nuisance in
    Stephen Baxter's novel _Voyage_, too.

    Stephen King's _11/22/63: A Novel_ includes a version of Kennedy who
    is not assassinated and its results.

    They aren't pretty.

    I take it that the Talking Doughnut (look up what a Berliner is..., or just seehttps://www.pinterest.com/pin/453667362456961194/ for an example) reverted to type?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Scott Lurndal@21:1/5 to WolfFan on Mon Mar 4 18:57:57 2024
    WolfFan <[email protected]> writes:
    On Mar 4, 2024, Paul S Person wrote
    (in article<[email protected]>):

    On Sun, 3 Mar 2024 23:52:55 +0000, Robert Carnegie
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 03/03/2024 22:01, Lynn McGuire wrote:
    "My Real Children" by Jo Walton
    https://www.amazon.com/My-Real-Children-Jo-Walton/dp/076533268X/

    A standalone alternate history fantasy novel about a 90 year old
    confused woman. I read the well printed and well bound trade paperback >> > > published by Tor Books in 2014 that I bought on Amazon in 2017.

    Patricia Cowan is 90 years old and living in a nursing home in England. >> > > Her daily status chart differs between "confused today" and "very
    confused today". Some days she remembers having four children and some >> > > days she remembers having three children. Some days she remembers the
    bomb that killed President Kennedy in 1963 and some days she remembers >> > > the nuclear exchange that destroyed Miami and Kiev in 1963.

    My rating: 5 out of 5 stars
    Amazon rating: 4.2 out of 5 stars (489 reviews)

    The bomb that killed President Kennedy?
    Are you sure? Is she? Why am I assuming
    that Kennedy didn't die in the "limited
    nuclear exchange" timeline? Maybe because
    television science fiction comedy _Red Dwarf_
    had a "saved Kennedy, afterwards bad" episode?
    Not-dead Kennedy was a nuisance in
    Stephen Baxter's novel _Voyage_, too.

    Stephen King's _11/22/63: A Novel_ includes a version of Kennedy who
    is not assassinated and its results.

    They aren't pretty.

    I take it that the Talking Doughnut (look up what a Berliner is..., or just

    Ich bin ein Berliner is "I am Berlin" auf Deutsch.

    Has nothing to do with the pastry.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From WolfFan@21:1/5 to Scott Lurndal on Mon Mar 4 14:21:59 2024
    On Mar 4, 2024, Scott Lurndal wrote
    (in article <VQoFN.39118$[email protected]>):

    WolfFan <[email protected]> writes:
    On Mar 4, 2024, Paul S Person wrote
    (in article<[email protected]>):

    On Sun, 3 Mar 2024 23:52:55 +0000, Robert Carnegie <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 03/03/2024 22:01, Lynn McGuire wrote:
    "My Real Children" by Jo Walton https://www.amazon.com/My-Real-Children-Jo-Walton/dp/076533268X/

    A standalone alternate history fantasy novel about a 90 year old confused woman. I read the well printed and well bound trade paperback
    published by Tor Books in 2014 that I bought on Amazon in 2017.

    Patricia Cowan is 90 years old and living in a nursing home in England.
    Her daily status chart differs between "confused today" and "very confused today". Some days she remembers having four children and some
    days she remembers having three children. Some days she remembers the bomb that killed President Kennedy in 1963 and some days she remembers
    the nuclear exchange that destroyed Miami and Kiev in 1963.

    My rating: 5 out of 5 stars
    Amazon rating: 4.2 out of 5 stars (489 reviews)

    The bomb that killed President Kennedy?
    Are you sure? Is she? Why am I assuming
    that Kennedy didn't die in the "limited
    nuclear exchange" timeline? Maybe because
    television science fiction comedy _Red Dwarf_
    had a "saved Kennedy, afterwards bad" episode?
    Not-dead Kennedy was a nuisance in
    Stephen Baxter's novel _Voyage_, too.

    Stephen King's _11/22/63: A Novel_ includes a version of Kennedy who
    is not assassinated and its results.

    They aren't pretty.

    I take it that the Talking Doughnut (look up what a Berliner is..., or just

    Ich bin ein Berliner is "I am Berlin" auf Deutsch.

    Has nothing to do with the pastry.

    So... intead of being a doughnut, he was a city? This hardly seems to be an improvement.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Scott Lurndal@21:1/5 to WolfFan on Mon Mar 4 19:39:56 2024
    WolfFan <[email protected]> writes:
    On Mar 4, 2024, Scott Lurndal wrote
    (in article <VQoFN.39118$[email protected]>):

    WolfFan <[email protected]> writes:
    On Mar 4, 2024, Paul S Person wrote
    (in article<[email protected]>):

    On Sun, 3 Mar 2024 23:52:55 +0000, Robert Carnegie
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 03/03/2024 22:01, Lynn McGuire wrote:
    "My Real Children" by Jo Walton
    https://www.amazon.com/My-Real-Children-Jo-Walton/dp/076533268X/

    A standalone alternate history fantasy novel about a 90 year old
    confused woman. I read the well printed and well bound trade paperback
    published by Tor Books in 2014 that I bought on Amazon in 2017.

    Patricia Cowan is 90 years old and living in a nursing home in England.
    Her daily status chart differs between "confused today" and "very
    confused today". Some days she remembers having four children and some
    days she remembers having three children. Some days she remembers the
    bomb that killed President Kennedy in 1963 and some days she remembers
    the nuclear exchange that destroyed Miami and Kiev in 1963.

    My rating: 5 out of 5 stars
    Amazon rating: 4.2 out of 5 stars (489 reviews)

    The bomb that killed President Kennedy?
    Are you sure? Is she? Why am I assuming
    that Kennedy didn't die in the "limited
    nuclear exchange" timeline? Maybe because
    television science fiction comedy _Red Dwarf_
    had a "saved Kennedy, afterwards bad" episode?
    Not-dead Kennedy was a nuisance in
    Stephen Baxter's novel _Voyage_, too.

    Stephen King's _11/22/63: A Novel_ includes a version of Kennedy who
    is not assassinated and its results.

    They aren't pretty.

    I take it that the Talking Doughnut (look up what a Berliner is..., or just

    Ich bin ein Berliner is "I am Berlin" auf Deutsch.

    Has nothing to do with the pastry.

    So... intead of being a doughnut, he was a city? This hardly seems to be an >improvement.


    The english translation doesn't convey what the phrase meant to the
    citizens of Berlin. It is a perfectly normal phrase to a German
    speaker who clearly understood.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Scott Lurndal@21:1/5 to Scott Lurndal on Mon Mar 4 19:50:35 2024
    [email protected] (Scott Lurndal) writes:
    WolfFan <[email protected]> writes:
    On Mar 4, 2024, Scott Lurndal wrote
    (in article <VQoFN.39118$[email protected]>):

    WolfFan <[email protected]> writes:
    On Mar 4, 2024, Paul S Person wrote
    (in article<[email protected]>):

    On Sun, 3 Mar 2024 23:52:55 +0000, Robert Carnegie
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 03/03/2024 22:01, Lynn McGuire wrote:
    "My Real Children" by Jo Walton
    https://www.amazon.com/My-Real-Children-Jo-Walton/dp/076533268X/ >>> > > > >
    A standalone alternate history fantasy novel about a 90 year old >>> > > > > confused woman. I read the well printed and well bound trade paperback
    published by Tor Books in 2014 that I bought on Amazon in 2017.

    Patricia Cowan is 90 years old and living in a nursing home in England.
    Her daily status chart differs between "confused today" and "very >>> > > > > confused today". Some days she remembers having four children and some
    days she remembers having three children. Some days she remembers the
    bomb that killed President Kennedy in 1963 and some days she remembers
    the nuclear exchange that destroyed Miami and Kiev in 1963.

    My rating: 5 out of 5 stars
    Amazon rating: 4.2 out of 5 stars (489 reviews)

    The bomb that killed President Kennedy?
    Are you sure? Is she? Why am I assuming
    that Kennedy didn't die in the "limited
    nuclear exchange" timeline? Maybe because
    television science fiction comedy _Red Dwarf_
    had a "saved Kennedy, afterwards bad" episode?
    Not-dead Kennedy was a nuisance in
    Stephen Baxter's novel _Voyage_, too.

    Stephen King's _11/22/63: A Novel_ includes a version of Kennedy who >>> > > is not assassinated and its results.

    They aren't pretty.

    I take it that the Talking Doughnut (look up what a Berliner is..., or just

    Ich bin ein Berliner is "I am Berlin" auf Deutsch.

    Has nothing to do with the pastry.

    So... intead of being a doughnut, he was a city? This hardly seems to be an >>improvement.


    The english translation doesn't convey what the phrase meant to the
    citizens of Berlin. It is a perfectly normal phrase to a German
    speaker who clearly understood.

    From Wikipedia:

    While the phrase "Ich bin ein Berliner" can be understood as having a
    double meaning, it is neither wrong to use it the way Kennedy did nor
    was it embarrassing.[15] According to some grammar texts,[16] the indefinite
    article can be omitted in German when speaking of an individual's profession
    or origin but is in any case used when speaking in a figurative sense.[17][18]
    Furthermore, although the word "Berliner"[14][19] has traditionally been used
    for a doughnut filled with fruit jam or jelly in the north, west, and southwest
    of Germany, it has never been used in Berlin itself or the surrounding region,
    where the usual word is "Pfannkuchen" (literally "pancake").[20] Therefore,
    no Berliner would mistake Berliner for a doughnut.

    And:

    The misconception appears to have originated in Len Deighton's 1983
    spy novel Berlin Game, which contains the following passage,
    spoken by Bernard Samson:

    'Ich bin ein Berliner,' I said. It was a joke. A Berliner is
    a doughnut. The day after President Kennedy made his famous
    proclamation, Berlin cartoonists had a field day with talking
    doughnuts.[22]

    The NY Times review took it as gospel and thus an urban legend was born.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Scott Lurndal@21:1/5 to Lynn McGuire on Mon Mar 4 23:48:50 2024
    Lynn McGuire <[email protected]> writes:
    On 3/4/2024 12:57 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
    WolfFan <[email protected]> writes:
    On Mar 4, 2024, Paul S Person wrote
    (in article<[email protected]>):

    On Sun, 3 Mar 2024 23:52:55 +0000, Robert Carnegie
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 03/03/2024 22:01, Lynn McGuire wrote:
    "My Real Children" by Jo Walton
    https://www.amazon.com/My-Real-Children-Jo-Walton/dp/076533268X/

    A standalone alternate history fantasy novel about a 90 year old
    confused woman. I read the well printed and well bound trade paperback >>>>>> published by Tor Books in 2014 that I bought on Amazon in 2017.

    Patricia Cowan is 90 years old and living in a nursing home in England. >>>>>> Her daily status chart differs between "confused today" and "very
    confused today". Some days she remembers having four children and some >>>>>> days she remembers having three children. Some days she remembers the >>>>>> bomb that killed President Kennedy in 1963 and some days she remembers >>>>>> the nuclear exchange that destroyed Miami and Kiev in 1963.

    My rating: 5 out of 5 stars
    Amazon rating: 4.2 out of 5 stars (489 reviews)

    The bomb that killed President Kennedy?
    Are you sure? Is she? Why am I assuming
    that Kennedy didn't die in the "limited
    nuclear exchange" timeline? Maybe because
    television science fiction comedy _Red Dwarf_
    had a "saved Kennedy, afterwards bad" episode?
    Not-dead Kennedy was a nuisance in
    Stephen Baxter's novel _Voyage_, too.

    Stephen King's _11/22/63: A Novel_ includes a version of Kennedy who
    is not assassinated and its results.

    They aren't pretty.

    I take it that the Talking Doughnut (look up what a Berliner is..., or just >>
    Ich bin ein Berliner is "I am Berlin" auf Deutsch.

    Has nothing to do with the pastry.

    But, "I am a jelly doughnut" is quite funny to non Berliners.

    No, it's not funny at all.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Scott Dorsey@21:1/5 to Scott Lurndal on Mon Mar 4 23:58:56 2024
    In article <C5tFN.64216$[email protected]>,
    Scott Lurndal <[email protected]> wrote:
    Lynn McGuire <[email protected]> writes:
    On 3/4/2024 12:57 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
    WolfFan <[email protected]> writes:
    On Mar 4, 2024, Paul S Person wrote
    (in article<[email protected]>):

    On Sun, 3 Mar 2024 23:52:55 +0000, Robert Carnegie
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 03/03/2024 22:01, Lynn McGuire wrote:
    "My Real Children" by Jo Walton
    https://www.amazon.com/My-Real-Children-Jo-Walton/dp/076533268X/ >>>>>>>
    A standalone alternate history fantasy novel about a 90 year old >>>>>>> confused woman. I read the well printed and well bound trade paperback >>>>>>> published by Tor Books in 2014 that I bought on Amazon in 2017.

    Patricia Cowan is 90 years old and living in a nursing home in England. >>>>>>> Her daily status chart differs between "confused today" and "very >>>>>>> confused today". Some days she remembers having four children and some >>>>>>> days she remembers having three children. Some days she remembers the >>>>>>> bomb that killed President Kennedy in 1963 and some days she remembers >>>>>>> the nuclear exchange that destroyed Miami and Kiev in 1963.

    My rating: 5 out of 5 stars
    Amazon rating: 4.2 out of 5 stars (489 reviews)

    The bomb that killed President Kennedy?
    Are you sure? Is she? Why am I assuming
    that Kennedy didn't die in the "limited
    nuclear exchange" timeline? Maybe because
    television science fiction comedy _Red Dwarf_
    had a "saved Kennedy, afterwards bad" episode?
    Not-dead Kennedy was a nuisance in
    Stephen Baxter's novel _Voyage_, too.

    Stephen King's _11/22/63: A Novel_ includes a version of Kennedy who >>>>> is not assassinated and its results.

    They aren't pretty.

    I take it that the Talking Doughnut (look up what a Berliner is..., or just

    Ich bin ein Berliner is "I am Berlin" auf Deutsch.

    Has nothing to do with the pastry.

    But, "I am a jelly doughnut" is quite funny to non Berliners.

    No, it's not funny at all.

    You wouldn't say that if you were a jelly doughnut.
    --scott
    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mickmane@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Tue Mar 5 06:51:00 2024
    On 05.03.24, WolfFan <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Mar 4, 2024, Scott Lurndal wrote
    (in article <VQoFN.39118$[email protected]>):
    WolfFan <[email protected]> writes:
    On Mar 4, 2024, Paul S Person wrote
    (in article<[email protected]>):

    Stephen King's _11/22/63: A Novel_ includes a version of Kennedy
    who is not assassinated and its results.

    They aren't pretty.

    I take it that the Talking Doughnut (look up what a Berliner is...,
    or just

    Ich bin ein Berliner is "I am Berlin" auf Deutsch.

    It means "I am a person from Berlin", or, "I am a Berliner".

    It does NOT mean "I am Berlin". That'd be "Ich bin Berlin".

    Has nothing to do with the pastry.

    So... intead of being a doughnut, he was a city? This hardly seems to
    be an improvement.

    Seeing it as meaning he's a pastry rather than someone from Berlin is an
    old joke.

    Hey, they have pastry that's called Amerikaner (American) here.

    Only imported Hamburgers though, that wasn't the local's idea. :P

    --

    Mickmane

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Scott Lurndal@21:1/5 to Lynn McGuire on Tue Mar 5 14:52:13 2024
    Lynn McGuire <[email protected]> writes:
    On 3/4/2024 5:48 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
    Lynn McGuire <[email protected]> writes:

    Stephen King's _11/22/63: A Novel_ includes a version of Kennedy who >>>>>> is not assassinated and its results.

    They aren't pretty.

    I take it that the Talking Doughnut (look up what a Berliner is..., or just

    Ich bin ein Berliner is "I am Berlin" auf Deutsch.

    Has nothing to do with the pastry.

    But, "I am a jelly doughnut" is quite funny to non Berliners.

    No, it's not funny at all.

    It was funny to my entire German class in 1975. Or was that 1976. Been
    a long time ago.

    It wasn't funny in my German class in the 1970's. Our german teacher
    taught us what the phrase meant to the Berliners who heard it,
    not some wannabe comedian.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Paul S Person@21:1/5 to All on Tue Mar 5 09:26:42 2024
    On Mon, 04 Mar 2024 18:57:57 GMT, [email protected] (Scott Lurndal)
    wrote:

    Ich bin ein Berliner

    According to the English-to-German translator on Bing,

    "Ich bin ein Berliner" means "I am a Berliner"

    and

    "Berliner" means "Doughnut"

    "Ich bin ein Berliner meaning", OTOH, produces ... a page of articles desperately trying to explain that he really didn't say he was
    doughnut. Even though he clearly did.

    Note: all phrases/words shown in quotes were entered /without the
    quotes/.
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Paul S Person@21:1/5 to All on Tue Mar 5 09:32:11 2024
    On Mon, 04 Mar 2024 19:50:35 GMT, [email protected] (Scott Lurndal)
    wrote:

    [email protected] (Scott Lurndal) writes:
    WolfFan <[email protected]> writes:
    On Mar 4, 2024, Scott Lurndal wrote
    (in article <VQoFN.39118$[email protected]>):

    WolfFan <[email protected]> writes:
    On Mar 4, 2024, Paul S Person wrote
    (in article<[email protected]>):

    On Sun, 3 Mar 2024 23:52:55 +0000, Robert Carnegie
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 03/03/2024 22:01, Lynn McGuire wrote:
    "My Real Children" by Jo Walton
    https://www.amazon.com/My-Real-Children-Jo-Walton/dp/076533268X/ >>>> > > > >
    A standalone alternate history fantasy novel about a 90 year old >>>> > > > > confused woman. I read the well printed and well bound trade paperback
    published by Tor Books in 2014 that I bought on Amazon in 2017. >>>> > > > >
    Patricia Cowan is 90 years old and living in a nursing home in England.
    Her daily status chart differs between "confused today" and "very >>>> > > > > confused today". Some days she remembers having four children and some
    days she remembers having three children. Some days she remembers the
    bomb that killed President Kennedy in 1963 and some days she remembers
    the nuclear exchange that destroyed Miami and Kiev in 1963.

    My rating: 5 out of 5 stars
    Amazon rating: 4.2 out of 5 stars (489 reviews)

    The bomb that killed President Kennedy?
    Are you sure? Is she? Why am I assuming
    that Kennedy didn't die in the "limited
    nuclear exchange" timeline? Maybe because
    television science fiction comedy _Red Dwarf_
    had a "saved Kennedy, afterwards bad" episode?
    Not-dead Kennedy was a nuisance in
    Stephen Baxter's novel _Voyage_, too.

    Stephen King's _11/22/63: A Novel_ includes a version of Kennedy who >>>> > > is not assassinated and its results.

    They aren't pretty.

    I take it that the Talking Doughnut (look up what a Berliner is..., or just

    Ich bin ein Berliner is "I am Berlin" auf Deutsch.

    Has nothing to do with the pastry.

    So... intead of being a doughnut, he was a city? This hardly seems to be an >>>improvement.


    The english translation doesn't convey what the phrase meant to the >>citizens of Berlin. It is a perfectly normal phrase to a German
    speaker who clearly understood.

    From Wikipedia:

    While the phrase "Ich bin ein Berliner" can be understood as having a
    double meaning, it is neither wrong to use it the way Kennedy did nor
    was it embarrassing.[15] According to some grammar texts,[16] the indefinite
    article can be omitted in German when speaking of an individual's profession
    or origin but is in any case used when speaking in a figurative sense.[17][18]
    Furthermore, although the word "Berliner"[14][19] has traditionally been used
    for a doughnut filled with fruit jam or jelly in the north, west, and southwest
    of Germany, it has never been used in Berlin itself or the surrounding region,
    where the usual word is "Pfannkuchen" (literally "pancake").[20] Therefore,
    no Berliner would mistake Berliner for a doughnut.

    And:

    The misconception appears to have originated in Len Deighton's 1983
    spy novel Berlin Game, which contains the following passage,
    spoken by Bernard Samson:

    'Ich bin ein Berliner,' I said. It was a joke. A Berliner is
    a doughnut. The day after President Kennedy made his famous
    proclamation, Berlin cartoonists had a field day with talking
    doughnuts.[22]

    The NY Times review took it as gospel and thus an urban legend was born.

    I learned that Kennedy said he was a doughnut /long/ before 1983.

    And, even if, "Ich bin Berliner" would mean "I am a resident of
    Berlin" (and the transator facility says it means "I am a doughnut"),
    Kennedy /didn't/ omit the "ein", rendering the grammatical argument
    pointless.

    So, no misconception involved. Those who heard him knew what he meant,
    and what he said, but what can you expect from an Amerikaner? At least
    he tried.
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Scott Lurndal@21:1/5 to Paul S Person on Tue Mar 5 18:14:50 2024
    Paul S Person <[email protected]d> writes:
    On Mon, 04 Mar 2024 18:57:57 GMT, [email protected] (Scott Lurndal)
    wrote:

    Ich bin ein Berliner

    According to the English-to-German translator on Bing,

    "Ich bin ein Berliner" means "I am a Berliner"

    and

    "Berliner" means "Doughnut"

    Not in Berlin or the surrounding region.


    "Ich bin ein Berliner meaning", OTOH, produces ... a page of articles >desperately trying to explain that he really didn't say he was
    doughnut. Even though he clearly did.

    No, he did not. Please read here:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ich_bin_ein_Berliner

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Christian Weisgerber@21:1/5 to Paul S Person on Tue Mar 5 18:57:55 2024
    On 2024-03-05, Paul S Person <[email protected]d> wrote:

    I learned that Kennedy said he was a doughnut /long/ before 1983.

    Well, he didn't. It's a bizarre myth repeated by English speakers
    who don't know German.

    --
    Christian "naddy" Weisgerber [email protected]

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Gary R. Schmidt@21:1/5 to Scott Lurndal on Wed Mar 6 15:48:12 2024
    On 06/03/2024 01:52, Scott Lurndal wrote:
    Lynn McGuire <[email protected]> writes:
    On 3/4/2024 5:48 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
    Lynn McGuire <[email protected]> writes:

    Stephen King's _11/22/63: A Novel_ includes a version of Kennedy who >>>>>>> is not assassinated and its results.

    They aren't pretty.

    I take it that the Talking Doughnut (look up what a Berliner is..., or just

    Ich bin ein Berliner is "I am Berlin" auf Deutsch.

    Has nothing to do with the pastry.

    But, "I am a jelly doughnut" is quite funny to non Berliners.

    No, it's not funny at all.

    It was funny to my entire German class in 1975. Or was that 1976. Been
    a long time ago.

    It wasn't funny in my German class in the 1970's. Our german teacher
    taught us what the phrase meant to the Berliners who heard it,
    not some wannabe comedian.

    It's mildly amusing to those of us who are primarily English-speaking,
    whose family background is German.

    All the idiots who think that "Berliner" *only* means doughnut, sigh...

    My father was a Berliner, and he'd rip your lungs out if you'd tried to
    tell him that meant he was a pastry. (Post-war smugglers and
    black-marketers, of which he was one, didn't take being demeaned
    lightly. ;-) )

    Cheers,
    Gary B-)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Paul S Person@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Wed Mar 6 08:44:23 2024
    On Tue, 5 Mar 2024 18:57:55 -0000 (UTC), Christian Weisgerber <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 2024-03-05, Paul S Person <[email protected]d> wrote:

    I learned that Kennedy said he was a doughnut /long/ before 1983.

    Well, he didn't. It's a bizarre myth repeated by English speakers
    who don't know German.

    All the /evidence/ presented suggests he did.

    All the counterarguments are clearly handwaving excercises.

    And my point that this was known (or at least believed) well before
    1983 still stands.

    I experienced the tolerance of Germans for Americans who at least
    /try/ to communicate in German on many occasions in the mid-70s. These
    were all occasions when I got out of my depth and the mood was getting
    bad when I admitted that I was, not a German, but an "amerikanische
    Soldat", which calmed things down considerably.
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Christian Weisgerber@21:1/5 to Gary R. Schmidt on Wed Mar 6 19:21:26 2024
    On 2024-03-06, Gary R. Schmidt <[email protected]> wrote:

    It's mildly amusing to those of us who are primarily English-speaking,
    whose family background is German.

    All the idiots who think that "Berliner" *only* means doughnut, sigh...

    I guess they think "Berliner Zeitung" is a donut journal?

    Wait until they learn about "Pariser"!

    In German, -er serves as the general suffix to form adjectives from
    the names of settlements, and by extension nouns referring to the
    inhabitants. Now, if you know some German, you'll notice two
    oddities: Those -er words don't inflect like adjectives and they
    are capitalized. That's because they are fossilized nouns in the
    genitive case, although they are no longer perceived as such by
    modern speakers.

    --
    Christian "naddy" Weisgerber [email protected]

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Paul S Person@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Fri Mar 8 08:57:42 2024
    On Tue, 5 Mar 2024 18:57:55 -0000 (UTC), Christian Weisgerber <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 2024-03-05, Paul S Person <[email protected]d> wrote:

    I learned that Kennedy said he was a doughnut /long/ before 1983.

    Well, he didn't. It's a bizarre myth repeated by English speakers
    who don't know German.

    OK, I've had what I like to think of as "some thoughts" on this topic.

    1. The grammatical information presented somewhere in this tangle
    suggests that "Ich bin Berliner" means "I am of Berlin", presumably
    with a noun phrase ("a native" "a resident") omitted. It also rejects
    using the article, so "Ich bin ein Berliner" cannot mean "I am an of
    Berlin" (which isn't true in any sense) but must be using some other
    meaning of "Berliner" to which an indefinite article can apply, of
    which "I am a doughnut" at least recognizes that "Berliner" is also
    used for a type of pastry -- and makes sense, at least grammatically.

    2. Had Kennedy said he was "of Berlin", he would have been lying, for
    he was neither a native of Berlin nor a resident of Berlin. So those
    insisting "Ich bin ein Berliner" means "I am of Berlin" (ignoring the
    "ein") are making him out to be a liar.

    3. What Kennedy meant, as pretty much everyone probably realizes, was
    that he (and so, since he was Chief of State, the USA and, by
    extension, NATO) were very supportive of West Berlin, surrounded as it
    was by Commies. He was, IOW, expressing his solidarity with the
    residents of Berlin, not claiming to be one.

    4. All the hand-waving and excuse-making is from people who think that
    /what he said/ must be /what he meant/. But people speaking a foreign
    language tend to be limited by not being part of the corresponding
    culture and so not understanding, as Prof Schickele (discoverer of PDQ
    Back) puts it at one point, "all the cultural nuances and stuff". This
    leaves the person(s) being spoken to figure out what was /meant/ by
    what was said. In some cases, actually asking to verify that what is
    thought to have been meant actually was meant is prudent; in this
    case, the context of the speech makes it pretty darn obvious.

    5. I view this as just one more instance of "semantic goo", which
    allows anyone who wants to to claim anything that person wants to by
    simply waving the arms and making excuses. Among other
    characteristics.

    Having a grasp of reality and semantic goo, BTW, are incompatible.
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Scott Lurndal@21:1/5 to Paul S Person on Fri Mar 8 18:31:44 2024
    Paul S Person <[email protected]d> writes:
    On Tue, 5 Mar 2024 18:57:55 -0000 (UTC), Christian Weisgerber ><[email protected]> wrote:

    On 2024-03-05, Paul S Person <[email protected]d> wrote:

    I learned that Kennedy said he was a doughnut /long/ before 1983.=20

    Well, he didn't. It's a bizarre myth repeated by English speakers
    who don't know German.

    OK, I've had what I like to think of as "some thoughts" on this topic.

    Give it up. You don't understand German and you're not a Berliner.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Paul S Person@21:1/5 to All on Sat Mar 9 08:47:38 2024
    On Fri, 08 Mar 2024 18:31:44 GMT, [email protected] (Scott Lurndal)
    wrote:

    Paul S Person <[email protected]d> writes:
    On Tue, 5 Mar 2024 18:57:55 -0000 (UTC), Christian Weisgerber >><[email protected]> wrote:

    On 2024-03-05, Paul S Person <[email protected]d> wrote:

    I learned that Kennedy said he was a doughnut /long/ before 1983.=20

    Well, he didn't. It's a bizarre myth repeated by English speakers
    who don't know German.

    OK, I've had what I like to think of as "some thoughts" on this topic.

    Give it up. You don't understand German and you're not a Berliner.

    Not only am I not a jelly donut, I am not of Berlin. That indefinite
    article makes a difference! Or so I have read ... here ...
    unchallenged by people who "know German".

    I do understand German, to some extent. I took two years of it in
    college. I was actually quite good in the late 70s/early 80s at simple
    everyday interactions.

    But time does seem to have passed this topic by ... for now.

    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Paul S Person@21:1/5 to All on Sat Mar 9 08:53:10 2024
    On Fri, 8 Mar 2024 14:30:17 -0500, William Hyde <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    Paul S Person wrote:
    On Tue, 5 Mar 2024 18:57:55 -0000 (UTC), Christian Weisgerber
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 2024-03-05, Paul S Person <[email protected]d> wrote:

    I learned that Kennedy said he was a doughnut /long/ before 1983.

    Well, he didn't. It's a bizarre myth repeated by English speakers
    who don't know German.

    OK, I've had what I like to think of as "some thoughts" on this topic.

    1. The grammatical information presented somewhere in this tangle
    suggests that "Ich bin Berliner" means "I am of Berlin", presumably
    with a noun phrase ("a native" "a resident") omitted. It also rejects
    using the article, so "Ich bin ein Berliner" cannot mean "I am an of
    Berlin" (which isn't true in any sense)


    But then, Tony Curtis wasn't Spartacus in any sense, either.

    Movie 1960, speech 1963.

    An irrelevance.

    When a person resorts to that, everyone else who is paying attention
    knows that that person has run out of arguments.

    That would depend on whether Tony Curtis based his acting on becoming
    the character or not. But, in any case, he was Spartacus in the sense
    of playing the role.

    And saying that an actor played a role in a movie is not a nonsense
    phrase (as "I am an of Berlin" is).

    Well, provided the German grammitical information given in this
    discussion is correct. I haven't actually pulled out my Duden to check
    it.
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Christian Weisgerber@21:1/5 to Paul S Person on Sat Mar 9 18:39:12 2024
    On 2024-03-09, Paul S Person <[email protected]d> wrote:

    And saying that an actor played a role in a movie is not a nonsense
    phrase (as "I am an of Berlin" is).

    Well, provided the German grammitical information given in this
    discussion is correct.

    That was an _etymological_ aside.

    --
    Christian "naddy" Weisgerber [email protected]

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Scott Dorsey@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Sat Mar 9 20:16:07 2024
    Paul S Person <[email protected]d> wrote:
    Not only am I not a jelly donut, I am not of Berlin. That indefinite
    article makes a difference!

    Reading this thread has made me glazed.
    --scott


    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dimensional Traveler@21:1/5 to Scott Dorsey on Sat Mar 9 19:04:08 2024
    On 3/9/2024 12:16 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
    Paul S Person <[email protected]d> wrote:
    Not only am I not a jelly donut, I am not of Berlin. That indefinite
    article makes a difference!

    Reading this thread has made me glazed.
    --scott

    Chocolate or sugar?

    --
    I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
    dirty old man.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Paul S Person@21:1/5 to All on Sun Mar 10 09:02:31 2024
    On Sat, 9 Mar 2024 16:47:36 -0500, William Hyde <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    Paul S Person wrote:
    On Fri, 8 Mar 2024 14:30:17 -0500, William Hyde <[email protected]>
    wrote:
    .


    That would depend on whether Tony Curtis based his acting on becoming
    the character or not. But, in any case, he was Spartacus in the sense
    of playing the role.

    Kirk Douglas played Spartacus. Curtis played Antoninus, In the story
    at one point Antoninus (and others) claimed "I am Spartacus", which has >meaning even though it was not true in any sense.

    Thanks for pointing that out.

    It's been a long time since I saw it.

    The last version I saw had that most dreaded or most desired
    (depending on the result) feature -- extra scenes.

    Which, in this case, had dialog that was identical to other scenes
    left in the movie. After some post-production adjustment to produce
    the original, no doubt. In this case, the extra scenes were not really
    a positive thing. IMHO, of course.
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)