XPost: alt.arts.poetry.comments, alt.poetry
On Sun, 16 Feb 2025 7:36:06 +0000, W.Dockery wrote:
On Sun, 16 Feb 2025 7:11:59 +0000, HarryLime wrote:
On Sun, 16 Feb 2025 2:38:29 +0000, WillnDockery wrote:
On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 14:22:48 +0000, HarryLime wrote:
On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 13:13:25 +0000, Will Dockery wrote:
On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 12:01:28 +0000, NancyGene wrote:
On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 6:33:52 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:
On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 4:56:27 +0000, Will Dockery wrote:
On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 3:04:47 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:
On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 2:31:12 +0000, NancyGene wrote:
"The Collected Poems of Robert Creeley 1945 - 1975"
https://www.imghippo.com/i/gJIH8498pOk.jpg - Title page
https://www.imghippo.com/i/QhcG5616is.jpg - Index of Titles and First
Lines, pp. 664-665
There is no poem listed called "The Days Pile Up," and there is no first
line of "The days pile up like unread newspapers,"
Your move, George Dance. The other book of Mr. Creeley's poems is at:
https://dokumen.pub/the-collected-poems-of-robert-creeley-19752005-9780520941670.html
No "The Days Pile Up" in there either. You are either a liar or know not
what you do.
Well, thank you for finding the volume that HarryLiar lied about giving
a link to. If it's in any /Collected Poems/ volume, that would be the >>>>>>>>> one. There's no sense in my downloading the file at this point. >>>>>>
We have had the link (and access to the book) since we started looking >>>>>> for the phantom poem. The poem is not in that book (or any other book). >>>>>>>>>
I was given the information on the poem by a trusted source;
Was the trusted source your wife or your daughter? We don't think that >>>>>> anyone else might read these messages. Were they trying to protect you >>>>>> against us? If so, they did considerable harm.
but given
this claim of yours that it doesn't appear in [/Collected Poems of >>>>>>>>> Robert
Creeley 1945 - 1975/], and Creeley's claim (quoted on Amazon) that that
[book contains everything he published up till 1975,] I think I'll have
to wait till the
copy I ordered on Amazon is in my hands and I can see for myself if it's
actually in that book or not. I don't see any reason to make a move >>>>>>>>> until then, so you'll just l have to wait.
We posted pictures of the title page and the index. Do you think that >>>>>> the physical book will show anything different?
Since it will take me longer to receive the book than it would take you,
I've asked Will to not give the group any information on it. I've read
??? Mr. Dockery has no information on it. We already have the book. >>>>>>
HarryLiar's made-up stories about why Will won't tell you the name of >>>>>>>>> the book, so I think it's best for me to tell you that much at least. >>>>>>
Mr. Dance, why don't you drop the silly name-calling? If anyone in this >>>>>> thread is a liar, it is not Michael or us.
Well put, George.
Thanks for the kind words, Will, but on rereading I see the second >>>>>>> paragraph wasn't well-put at all, and needs a serious rewrite. Let me >>>>>>> add it in here so that (I hope) I'll just be able to paste it in if >>>>>>> NastyGoon can't understand what I'm saying.
We perfectly understand what you are saying. You are trying to cover >>>>>> your ass.
I was given the information on the poem by a trusted source; but given >>>>>>> this claim of yours that it doesn't appear in /Collected Poems,
1945-1975/ plus Creeley's claim (quoted on Amazon) that that book >>>>>>> contains everything he published up until 1975, I think I'll have to >>>>>>> wait till the copy I ordered on Amazon is in my hands and I can see for >>>>>>> myself if it's actually in the book I ordered or not. I don't see a >>>>>>> reason to make any "move" till then, so you'll just have to wait. >>>>>>
It's up to you, but we will expect a full apology from you and Mr. >>>>>> Dockery for calling us a "plagiarist" and "second hander." We write our >>>>>> own poetry and have no need to plagiarize anyone else's.
--
Of course, I wrote a very similar opening line back in 1976 that has >>>>> been visible online for at least a decade, and I hadn't seen the Robert >>>>> Creeley poem either, "The seconds have piled up at the floor..."
https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=256444&group=alt.arts.poetry.comments#256444
***
Shattered
The seconds have piled up
at the floor
lost here in some other guy's past
lying there
with your seconds piled
there went by a life
untold
unasked
going by
never caused and never traced
the future never ever appears here.
If some morning I wake
here for you
trying to find some reason to return
if I see things denied
I once defined
a life just passed me by there
slipped through my fingers
everything here now is real
so wait.
That portion of the finish
never comes.
Now that the lights are going so low
the dimming glow
falls on my ego
now that I'm falling
into my morning
here I am gazing into those
reflector eyes
morning light
is blasting my head clean too.
Morning's clearer
I've been forgetting it.
Your thoughts seem to stream
like a highway
dimming lights seem to streak
like hitch-hikers.
When does this dream end?
When do I get on up the road?
The light sped out
like a fire-fly
like gravestones
never noticed
never seen.
Like marbles
spilling from shattered minds.
-Will Dockery / August 20 1976
***
(Published March 1977 in the Carverlite, the Carver High School
newspaper, Columbus Georgia)
From:
https://shadowville-mythos.blogspot.com/2023/09/shattered.html?m=1
***
I didn't accuse you of borrowing my line, but they are very similar
opening lines.
No, they really aren't. "Time piles up" is a common expression
-- as are more specific variations like "seconds pile up," "minutes pile >>>> up," "hours pile up," "days pile up," "weeks pile up," "months pile up," >>>> etc.
Not to mention the fact that "at the floor" is just bad English. The
seconds would pile up *on* the floor, not *at* it.
--
After some thought and discussion with my editor, I agree.
Although it doesn't matter at this point, the change in my poem was
actually made by /another/ editor nearly fifty years ago, for the first
publication in my high school newspaper:
https://www.facebook.com/share/p/15ndUbyxDi/
In my original typed manuscript I had written:
"The seconds have piled up on the floor, lost here in some other guy's
past."
But somewhere during the fancy typesetting, artwork and whatnot, my
friend and editor Michael Ehrhart changed "on" to "at" and his overall
job was so dazzling that we just ran with it back in 1976:
https://www.facebook.com/share/p/15ndUbyxDi/
What's "dazzling" about it? It's chock full of errors.
Thanks for reading and commenting.
Can you point out the errors?
For starters, he hyphenated "never" as "ne-ver." Hyphenation is
something that the rest of us had mastered by the 5th grade.
As to pointing out your errors, see below.
Hopefully I caught them all in my later revisions.
Shattered
The seconds have piled up
at the floor
*ON* the floor. Not "at" it.
lost here in some other guy's past
"here" is superfluous. "lost in some other guy's past"
lying there
LOL! Is your speaker "here" or "there"? He can't be in both
simultaneously.
with your seconds piled
Whose seconds, Donkey? In the opening line they were "the seconds"
connoting universal measurements of time. Now the seconds belong to
someone els
there went by a life
You should be imprisoned for torturing language like that.
"a life passed by" is the correct way of expressing this. However, the
tense would be incorrect. "Lying there" is present tense, meaning that
your speaker is in the present moment. If he's thinking about someone
else's life that touched his in the past, he needs to specify this
before switching tenses.
"remembering a life that passed by"
untold
unasked
going by
You've already said that it "went by." "Going by" is just a needless repetition.
It also changes the tense back from past "went" to "present". Random
switches between tenses are an earmark of a Will Donkey poem. You need
to learn how to use tenses correctly.
never caused and never traced
the future never ever appears here.
What are you trying to say here? That this unidentified person's life
was never caused? One should think their parents had been the source.
And how is a life traced? Generally this would mean recalled/recollected/remembered, but you wouldn't just use "traced" to
signify that. Your sentence appears to be bemoaning the fact that no
one ever traced their image on a piece of transparent paper.
And what's with the "never ever"? People stop saying "never ever" at
the age of 5 or 6.
If some morning I wake
here for you
Again, this is torturous prose. It should be "If I awake some morning."
In your line, the speaker is pondering the consequences of his waking
up a morning.
"Here," again, is superfluous -- where else would you be expected to
wake? "There"?
trying to find some reason to return
At this point, your speaker is babbling incoherently. One doesn't wake
up in the middle of attempting to find a reason for doing something.
One wakes up from sleeping.
And, you have yet to identify who this person being addressed is.
This is another earmark of a Will Donkey poem -- addressing various
pronouns (you, he, she, it, they) without identifying them to the
reader.
if I see things denied
It's impossible to tell if this line relates to that preceding or
following it. It doesn't make sense either way.
Is he seeing things he once defined denied? What did he define? For a
person to "define" something would mean that he was the perfect symbol
of that particularly quality or characteristic (Joe was the definition
of courage).
Or is his waking contemplation of the possibility of returning to...
some unidentified thing (a relationship?) being denied by the
unidentified someone's actions?
You need to learn how to convey information to your readers. Language
is about communication. It is the means by which we pass on
*information* to others. When your poetry hints at vague relationships
with unidentified pronouns, it is failing to express anything.
Vaguery can be used to a poem's advantage -- but the *entire poem*
should never be incoherent.
I once defined
a life just passed me by there
Where's "there"? If the life "just" passed you by, it would have done
so just a few seconds ago, so "there" should be "here."
But earlier in the poem, you'd said that someone else's life had just
passed by.
Which life was it? The speaker's life? Or the unidentified "you" he is addressing?
slipped through my fingers
This is just another way of saying "passed me by." If a line doesn't
add anything to the poem, you should cut it.
everything here now is real
WFT?
Was everything not real a moment ago?
More importantly, *what* has become real?
so wait.
That portion of the finish
never comes.
I'm guessing that you were stoned out of your senses when you wrote
this, and that it all made perfect sense to you at the time?
Are you telling the unidentified "you" (whose life had passed --
implying that they had died) to wait?
Are you telling yourself to wait -- as your train of thought jumps
tracks?
Or are you telling the reader, who you haven't been addressing, to wait?
And why use "portion" rather than "part"? It just sounds false (like a
child attempting to use "big words").
And just what part of what finish are you referring to?
Everything has suddenly become real (even though you had given no
previous indication that it was false, and even though you've failed to
even hint at what "real" and "everything" relate to), is meant to be a
false finish that never comes (and is, therefore, not a finish)?
That would sound vaguely profound if it actually had any intelligible
meaning.
Now that the lights are going so low
the dimming glow
falls on my ego
We have now arrived at the point in a Will Donkey poem, when I'm
inwardly screaming out "SHOOT ME NOW!!!"
How does the dimming glow of some lights affect your speaker's ego?
Does he feel inconsequential at dusk?
u
now that I'm falling
into my morning
So your speaker is still lying "here" (or, perhaps, "there") waking up
from contemplating returning to someone or something, and the lights
have suddenly dimmed? Was there a brown out?
here I am gazing into those
reflector eyes
Is the (supposedly deceased) "you" he's been addressing actually lying
on the floor with him (not having "passed by" him at all)?
morning light
is blasting my head clean too.
"Too"? Too implies that he'd already told us about something else that
the morning light was blasting clean.
So... basically, the speaker had gotten drunk and/or stoned, passed out
either here or there, woke up contemplating whether he should return to
someone or something, rambled incoherently about how his life (or the
life of someone else) passed him by... until the morning lights dimmed, blasting his head clean.
Got it. NOT!
Morning's clearer
I've been forgetting it.
Donkey, Donkey, Donkey [shakes head], always with the pronouns. The
speaker has been forgetting what?
And how can morning be "clearer" when it had never been described as
being "unclear"?
Your thoughts seem to stream
like a highway
Light streams. Highways don't.
Who is the speaker addressing? Himself? The morning? The unidentified
person whose "uncaused" and "untraced" life had passed him by?
dimming lights seem to streak
like hitch-hikers.
"Hitchhikers" is not hyphenated.
Why would morning lights be dimming again? Usually the ambient light
increases as the sun continues its ascent.
And why are the hitchhikers streaking? I realize this was written in
the 70s when streaking as still a thing, but I don't believe that the
two (hitchhiking and streaking) went together.
And even if there were dim streaks of light in your "here" (or,
possibly, "there"), how does dim light recall a hitchhiker (naked or
dressed)?
When does this dream end?
WHEN DOES THIS GODAWFUL POEM END???
I'm not joking, Donkey. A poem needs to grab, and hold, the reader's
interest. Since I have no idea what you poem is about (other than your
waking up still feeling the effects of the previous night's drugs), I
have *ZERO* interest in it.
I don't know who is speaking. I don't know who he's speaking to. I
don't know what he's prattling on about. Hell, I don't even know if
he's here or there.
And, as a consequence, I cannot invest any interest (much less feelings)
into his (non-) story.
When do I get on up the road?
"Get on up the road"? That's not even decent backwoods slang. When
speaking about reaching a destination (literal, spiritual, etc.), one
says "down" the road. "Up" the road implies back to the start of your
journey.
The light sped out
like a fire-fly
"firefly" is not hyphenated.
So the dimming, streaking, hitchhiking light is now a hastily departing firefly?
Pick ONE metaphor and stick with it.
like gravestones
never noticed
never seen.
OMFG!
Now the dimming, streaking, hitchhiking, hastily departing firefly like
light has turned into unseen gravestones???
I can't wait to discover what the morph into next.
Like marbles
spilling from shattered minds.
There it is!
They went from dimming, to streaking, to hitchhiking, to hastily
departing fireflies, to unseen gravestone, to marbles spilling from
shattered minds.
And this is the end of the poem?
What was the topic? The speaker lying in the "Here" or "There"? The
unknown person he was addressing? Someone's life having passed -- or
passed by? Contemplating returning to... something? Or the bizarre transformation of the morning light?
I would like to say that this is bad, even for you, but it's really just
par for the course as Donkey poems go: incoherent, incompetently
written, and terminally uninteresting.
--
--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
