• American citizens registering to vote harassed in proof of citizenship

    From Adam H. Kerman@21:1/5 to All on Sun Mar 23 19:19:43 2025
    My state has far more rational rules than other states with regard to
    voter registration and voting. After an obnoxious period three decades
    ago when Motor Voter was new (which gave us some voters who could
    participate in all elections and other voters who were federal-only
    voters and had to be issued limited ballots), the state implements the
    same federal rules for all elections without regard to whether there is
    a federal candidate on the ballot. This means that those eligible to
    vote are simultaneously opted in to voter registration when applying for
    a driver's license unless they opt out. I always opt out as I prefer to
    do these things separately.

    Under federal law, there is a database used to check identity that is
    combined of Social Security Number/Name matches and driver's license number/name and address matches. There is no address informtion in the
    SSN database as SSN uses IRS "last known address" addresses when the
    nationwide wage estimates are issued. Only when the recipient starts
    receiving retirement benefits or benefits from other Social Security
    programs are addresses added.

    This isn't a citizenship check. However, a birth certificate is required
    to be issued an SSN. Typically, those born in the United States (for the
    last several decades) have been enumerated at birth given that all the
    same paperwork is required to issue both the birth certificate and SSN.
    Foreign nationals eligible to work are issued SSNs too and get
    enumerated when their visas (green cards) are issued.

    So the Social Security Administration database provides an indirect
    citizenship check.

    In my state (and pretty much all states), an SSN is prerequisite to be
    issued a driver's license, but in addition, a birth certificate must be
    shown. Again, it's an indirect citizenship check. If the driver's
    license is REAL ID compliant, the applicant brings in all the same
    paperwork AGAIN, including the birth certificate. This is an actual
    citizenship check as REAL ID identifies citizens only.

    My state allows foreign nationals ineligible to work to use ITIN, a number issued by Internal Revenue Service, in lieu of SSN, but IRS issues these numbers using a similar procedure as birth certificates are required. A driver's license/ITIN combination is for a noncitizen and that person is ineligible to register to vote.

    Voter registration is closed during the 27 day period prior to an
    election. However, we have Grace Period Voting. Voter registration is
    allowed in person when voting at an early voting site; all requred identification must be shown. The applicant must register and vote; he's
    not allowed to register only, then vote later. At the polling site for
    the precinct on Election Day, election day registration is allowed.

    Federal law requires provisional voting for people who can't satisfy all
    the ID requirements. These ballots are set aside. After the election,
    the voter has so many days to provide the missing identification
    documents else the ballot won't be cast.

    And yes, a woman who has changed her name by marriage or anyone who
    changed his name via another type of court order must show the order.

    A naturalized citizen provides inforation about the date and court at
    which naturalization took place in case there's a reason to verify.

    In this article, actual American citizens unable to satisfy New
    Hampshire's new citizen check law at voter registration were unable to participate in annual town meetings, literal democracy in states that have township government. Now, with an in-person meeting requirement, there's
    no way to vote provisionally. However, there were also examples of
    voters prevented from voting at the polls, so New Hampshire isn't
    allowing provisional voting at nonfederal elections. And yeah, there was
    an example of a woman whose name was changed due to marriage who was
    turned away although returning for the third time with required
    docuentation, including a marriage license (which she probably had to
    show to prove her name when applying for a driver's license), she was
    finally allowed to vote.

    They also gave an example of a elderly woman who had been married three
    times but no longer had any of the marriage certificates and couldn't
    prove her name changes. She never voted.

    Even the state rep who sponsored the law insisted there wasn't rampant
    voter fraud by noncitizens but insisted that the law's requirements
    weren't unduly burdensome.

    Once again, it's a solution for a nonexistent problem. Who cares if
    Americans are the ones these laws end up screwing over.

    https://apnews.com/article/save-act-voting-proof-citizenship-new-hampshire-5105986c3fc354d3d61ec3480b49c788

    There's a right way to do this and a wrong way to do this. Each state
    should maintain a common vital statistics registry of birth, marriage,
    and death certificates. Any other identifying information may be added
    to it to administer various state programs, such as out-of-state birth
    and marriage certificates and primary residence. Make it easier for the individual to update inforation with this registry rather than with
    separate programs. If there's a need to provide evidence of a name
    change, then file the out-of-state marriage certificate or order of
    divorce with the state registry, making it available to the
    administrators of other state programs. Filing a United States-issued
    birth certificate is evidence of citizenship. If a certificate of
    registration of foreign birth was filed with a counsulate, then file
    that. If naturalized, then file the naturalization certificate in the
    state registry.

    The person isn't required to add this information to the registry, but
    if he chooses to, then he's met identification requirements applicable
    to that piece of identifying information for other state programs.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From shawn@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Sun Mar 23 16:46:13 2025
    On Sun, 23 Mar 2025 19:19:43 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    My state has far more rational rules than other states with regard to
    voter registration and voting. After an obnoxious period three decades
    ago when Motor Voter was new (which gave us some voters who could
    participate in all elections and other voters who were federal-only
    voters and had to be issued limited ballots), the state implements the
    same federal rules for all elections without regard to whether there is
    a federal candidate on the ballot. This means that those eligible to
    vote are simultaneously opted in to voter registration when applying for
    a driver's license unless they opt out. I always opt out as I prefer to
    do these things separately.

    Yeah, I saw a video just a few minutes ago about the SAVE act that
    said it would disqualify many women from voting if it passes. Other
    videos point out that it doesn't actually disqualify women from voting
    but it does require them to need more documentation to vote (as you
    pointed out below.)

    I'm not sure why the sponsors felt a need for this bill as it seems
    there's more than enough protections in place already.
    Under federal law, there is a database used to check identity that is >combined of Social Security Number/Name matches and driver's license >number/name and address matches. There is no address informtion in the
    SSN database as SSN uses IRS "last known address" addresses when the >nationwide wage estimates are issued. Only when the recipient starts >receiving retirement benefits or benefits from other Social Security
    programs are addresses added.

    This isn't a citizenship check. However, a birth certificate is required
    to be issued an SSN. Typically, those born in the United States (for the
    last several decades) have been enumerated at birth given that all the
    same paperwork is required to issue both the birth certificate and SSN. >Foreign nationals eligible to work are issued SSNs too and get
    enumerated when their visas (green cards) are issued.

    So the Social Security Administration database provides an indirect >citizenship check.

    In my state (and pretty much all states), an SSN is prerequisite to be
    issued a driver's license, but in addition, a birth certificate must be >shown. Again, it's an indirect citizenship check. If the driver's
    license is REAL ID compliant, the applicant brings in all the same
    paperwork AGAIN, including the birth certificate. This is an actual >citizenship check as REAL ID identifies citizens only.

    My state allows foreign nationals ineligible to work to use ITIN, a number >issued by Internal Revenue Service, in lieu of SSN, but IRS issues these >numbers using a similar procedure as birth certificates are required. A >driver's license/ITIN combination is for a noncitizen and that person is >ineligible to register to vote.

    Voter registration is closed during the 27 day period prior to an
    election. However, we have Grace Period Voting. Voter registration is
    allowed in person when voting at an early voting site; all requred >identification must be shown. The applicant must register and vote; he's
    not allowed to register only, then vote later. At the polling site for
    the precinct on Election Day, election day registration is allowed.

    Federal law requires provisional voting for people who can't satisfy all
    the ID requirements. These ballots are set aside. After the election,
    the voter has so many days to provide the missing identification
    documents else the ballot won't be cast.

    And yes, a woman who has changed her name by marriage or anyone who
    changed his name via another type of court order must show the order.

    A naturalized citizen provides inforation about the date and court at
    which naturalization took place in case there's a reason to verify.

    In this article, actual American citizens unable to satisfy New
    Hampshire's new citizen check law at voter registration were unable to >participate in annual town meetings, literal democracy in states that have >township government. Now, with an in-person meeting requirement, there's
    no way to vote provisionally. However, there were also examples of
    voters prevented from voting at the polls, so New Hampshire isn't
    allowing provisional voting at nonfederal elections. And yeah, there was
    an example of a woman whose name was changed due to marriage who was
    turned away although returning for the third time with required
    docuentation, including a marriage license (which she probably had to
    show to prove her name when applying for a driver's license), she was
    finally allowed to vote.

    They also gave an example of a elderly woman who had been married three
    times but no longer had any of the marriage certificates and couldn't
    prove her name changes. She never voted.

    Even the state rep who sponsored the law insisted there wasn't rampant
    voter fraud by noncitizens but insisted that the law's requirements
    weren't unduly burdensome.

    Once again, it's a solution for a nonexistent problem. Who cares if
    Americans are the ones these laws end up screwing over.

    https://apnews.com/article/save-act-voting-proof-citizenship-new-hampshire-5105986c3fc354d3d61ec3480b49c788

    There's a right way to do this and a wrong way to do this. Each state
    should maintain a common vital statistics registry of birth, marriage,
    and death certificates. Any other identifying information may be added
    to it to administer various state programs, such as out-of-state birth
    and marriage certificates and primary residence. Make it easier for the >individual to update inforation with this registry rather than with
    separate programs. If there's a need to provide evidence of a name
    change, then file the out-of-state marriage certificate or order of
    divorce with the state registry, making it available to the
    administrators of other state programs. Filing a United States-issued
    birth certificate is evidence of citizenship. If a certificate of >registration of foreign birth was filed with a counsulate, then file
    that. If naturalized, then file the naturalization certificate in the
    state registry.

    The person isn't required to add this information to the registry, but
    if he chooses to, then he's met identification requirements applicable
    to that piece of identifying information for other state programs.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dimensional Traveler@21:1/5 to shawn on Sun Mar 23 14:05:16 2025
    On 3/23/2025 1:46 PM, shawn wrote:
    On Sun, 23 Mar 2025 19:19:43 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    My state has far more rational rules than other states with regard to
    voter registration and voting. After an obnoxious period three decades
    ago when Motor Voter was new (which gave us some voters who could
    participate in all elections and other voters who were federal-only
    voters and had to be issued limited ballots), the state implements the
    same federal rules for all elections without regard to whether there is
    a federal candidate on the ballot. This means that those eligible to
    vote are simultaneously opted in to voter registration when applying for
    a driver's license unless they opt out. I always opt out as I prefer to
    do these things separately.

    Yeah, I saw a video just a few minutes ago about the SAVE act that
    said it would disqualify many women from voting if it passes. Other
    videos point out that it doesn't actually disqualify women from voting
    but it does require them to need more documentation to vote (as you
    pointed out below.)

    I'm not sure why the sponsors felt a need for this bill as it seems
    there's more than enough protections in place already.

    Because its another way to disenfranchise people. The fewer people that
    vote, the easier an election is to "control".

    --
    I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
    dirty old man.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Horny Goat@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Wed Mar 26 09:21:06 2025
    On Sun, 23 Mar 2025 19:19:43 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    And yes, a woman who has changed her name by marriage or anyone who
    changed his name via another type of court order must show the order.

    My wife had one heckuva time registering to vote even with her ID and
    marriage certificate in hand as we had an election a month after we
    were married and she had relocated between provinces. However I'm
    pretty sure she DID vote in the 1984 Canadian election. (Which was 4
    Sept 1984, we were married 3 Aug 1984)

    I do not think her uncle (a "front bench" Ontario MP) had anything to
    do with it though to be sure I was in terror at him meeting my
    grandfather who 15 years earlier had been a federal candidate for the
    other major party. Fortunately for us we had a family friend who was a
    senior civil servant in the Ministry of Transport and this MP had been parliamentary secretary to the minister of Transport so had met him in
    MoT meetings.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)