• Smith & Wesson Brands v. Estados Unidos Mexicanos

    From Adam H. Kerman@21:1/5 to All on Thu Mar 6 16:04:37 2025
    From what little I've read about this case, the government of Mexico
    sued Smith & Wesson for aiding and abetting crime committed by drug
    cartels using their weapons. The suit was filed in 2021 in Massachusetts district court; the traditional S&W headquarters was Springfield, where
    Horace Smith was from. They relocated to Tennessee which has friendlier
    state laws.

    The suit was filed under Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act,
    which has narrow windows in which gun manufacturers may be sued.
    Generally, other industries do not have industry-specific legislation
    like this.

    There have to be allegations of deceptive marketing practices to file
    suit. Generally, the manufacturer is not liable for harm from unlawful
    uses of its products. This does not shield them from liability in
    manufacturing defects.

    The marketing aspect, I thought, is specious, that the weapons are
    appealing to cartels by design. Surely, it's by function.

    The second problem with the lawsuit is Mexico's allegation of willful misconduct in distribution, that S&W had knowledge of which avenues of distribution were leading to illegal export.

    The problem here seems to be lack of evidence. Forgive me, but Mexico
    never found the "smoking gun" document as arms manufacturers keep
    themselves well insulated from ultimate users of their products.

    As a general matter, as distribution is part of the manufacturing
    process, there should be responsibility for weeding out the bad actors.
    This argument, that the manufacturer has no responsibility for
    distribution, ultimately failed to shield the Sackler family from
    liability from maldistribution of OxyContin.

    District court dismissed the lawsuit but First Circuit (based in Boston) reinstated it.

    To argue before the Supreme Court, the merchants of death hired Noel
    Francisco, solicitor general in the first Trump administration and now a partner with Jones Day.

    Mexico doesn't appear to have made its case on illegal conduct in
    distribution.

    [Neil Gorsuch] observed that to be liable for aiding and abetting,
    it isn't enough for the gun makers to know that they were
    facilitating violations of the laws; they had to intend to do so.

    Perhaps he's correct that it's the wrong legal standard to use because
    there's no way to prove intent. Why aren't quantities enough? The
    Sacklers lost on intent because statistics of distribution of OxyContin
    were absurd, that quantities prescribed and sold in tiny towns weren't justified by population. Doctors were drug pushers and pharmacies were trafficking.

    ATF informs manufacturers of patterns of illegal use of guns, but
    somehow, manufacturers have no responsibility for identifying the bad
    actors?

    Mexico is so weak on the facts that they aren't alleging actual
    violations of US law, a comment by Ketanji Brown Jackson. Elena Kagan
    said that Mexico didn't present facts that manufacturers were aware of
    problems with specific dealers.

    I hope the decision is narrow just based on a lack of facts. I don't see
    a constitutional issue here, but you never know what Thomas will do.

    There's got to be some law being violated as the United States can
    make it illegal to export guns. This lawsuit's ridiculous but there
    should have been a valid argument to make.

    It's not a Supreme Court argument, but Mexico's legal position aids and
    abets Trump's position that the cartels are a well-armed military force operating internationally who should be pursued into Mexico by the
    United States Army.

    https://www.scotusblog.com/2025/03/high-court-likely-to-block-mexicos-suit-against-gun-makers/

    Once again, Emily Taylor came up in my YouTube feed. She and Richard
    Hayes are criminal defense attorneys. I get a kick out of their videos
    in which they explain defense strategies with respect to self defense in
    the use of a gun which, even in Texas, is a difficult argument to make on behalf of many of their clients.

    I rarely agree with their Second Amendment arguments. Still, I'm willing
    to listen.

    Emily can get emotional at times in recounting stories of prosecutors
    and police violating rights of their clients. Of course, some of their
    clients are absolute scum but they are still entitled to fairness in
    treatment by police and prosecution and the courts,

    They're not quite providing the analysis I was looking for but I haven't
    found anything better.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8S4afQ6tN4

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  • From danny burstein@21:1/5 to Adam H. Kerman on Thu Mar 6 16:13:13 2025
    In <vqch2l$31qnb$[email protected]> "Adam H. Kerman" <[email protected]> writes: [snip]
    The second problem with the lawsuit is Mexico's allegation of willful >misconduct in distribution, that S&W had knowledge of which avenues of >distribution were leading to illegal export.

    The problem here seems to be lack of evidence. Forgive me, but Mexico
    never found the "smoking gun" document as arms manufacturers keep
    themselves well insulated from ultimate users of their products.

    per the summary I heard on, maybe NPR?, Mexico is alleging
    the gun manufacturers kept selling through dealers that
    had numerous ATF and other citations against them.

    (which brings up that other whole issue).

    We'll see...




    --
    _____________________________________________________
    Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
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  • From Adam H. Kerman@21:1/5 to danny burstein on Thu Mar 6 16:30:29 2025
    danny burstein <[email protected]> wrote:
    Adam H. Kerman <[email protected]> writes:

    [snip]

    The second problem with the lawsuit is Mexico's allegation of willful >>misconduct in distribution, that S&W had knowledge of which avenues of >>distribution were leading to illegal export.

    The problem here seems to be lack of evidence. Forgive me, but Mexico
    never found the "smoking gun" document as arms manufacturers keep >>themselves well insulated from ultimate users of their products.

    per the summary I heard on, maybe NPR?, Mexico is alleging
    the gun manufacturers kept selling through dealers that
    had numerous ATF and other citations against them.

    (which brings up that other whole issue).

    We'll see...

    In the supply chain, intent may be provable against the straw buyer. For everyone else in the supply chain, it's a wink and a nod.

    Prove a different crime that doesn't require proving intent to aid and
    abet crimes committed by cartels.

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  • From Adam H. Kerman@21:1/5 to Adam H. Kerman on Fri Mar 7 05:26:30 2025
    Adam H. Kerman <[email protected]> wrote:
    danny burstein <[email protected]> wrote:
    Adam H. Kerman <[email protected]> writes:

    [snip]

    The second problem with the lawsuit is Mexico's allegation of willful >>>misconduct in distribution, that S&W had knowledge of which avenues of >>>distribution were leading to illegal export.

    The problem here seems to be lack of evidence. Forgive me, but Mexico >>>never found the "smoking gun" document as arms manufacturers keep >>>themselves well insulated from ultimate users of their products.

    per the summary I heard on, maybe NPR?, Mexico is alleging
    the gun manufacturers kept selling through dealers that
    had numerous ATF and other citations against them.

    (which brings up that other whole issue).

    We'll see...

    In the supply chain, intent may be provable against the straw buyer. For >everyone else in the supply chain, it's a wink and a nod.

    Prove a different crime that doesn't require proving intent to aid and
    abet crimes committed by cartels.

    Around here, the most notorious gun shop has closed its doors, Chuck's
    Gun Shop and Pistol Range, Riverdale, Illinois. It was a leading local
    source of guns recovered at crime scenes in Chicago. The store would
    repeatedly sell to obvious straw buyers, clearly accompanied by a gang
    banger with an arrest record, nervous, being told what to say and do.

    https://www.chicagotribune.com/2025/03/06/notorious-firearm-store-linked-to-illegal-weapons-closes/

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  • From BTR1701@21:1/5 to Adam H. Kerman on Fri Mar 7 17:51:05 2025
    On Mar 6, 2025 at 9:26:30 PM PST, ""Adam H. Kerman"" <[email protected]> wrote:

    Adam H. Kerman <[email protected]> wrote:
    danny burstein <[email protected]> wrote:
    Adam H. Kerman <[email protected]> writes:

    [snip]

    The second problem with the lawsuit is Mexico's allegation of willful
    misconduct in distribution, that S&W had knowledge of which avenues of >>>> distribution were leading to illegal export.

    The problem here seems to be lack of evidence. Forgive me, but Mexico
    never found the "smoking gun" document as arms manufacturers keep
    themselves well insulated from ultimate users of their products.

    per the summary I heard on, maybe NPR?, Mexico is alleging
    the gun manufacturers kept selling through dealers that
    had numerous ATF and other citations against them.

    (which brings up that other whole issue).

    We'll see...

    In the supply chain, intent may be provable against the straw buyer. For
    everyone else in the supply chain, it's a wink and a nod.

    Prove a different crime that doesn't require proving intent to aid and
    abet crimes committed by cartels.

    Around here, the most notorious gun shop has closed its doors, Chuck's
    Gun Shop and Pistol Range, Riverdale, Illinois. It was a leading local
    source of guns recovered at crime scenes in Chicago.

    If the store was selling guns recovered at crime scenes, then shouldn't the spotlight be on the police, since *they* are the ones who recover guns at
    crime scenes?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Adam H. Kerman@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Fri Mar 7 18:44:11 2025
    BTR1701 <[email protected]> wrote:
    Mar 6, 2025 at 9:26:30 PM PST, Adam H. Kerman <[email protected]> wrote:

    . . .

    Around here, the most notorious gun shop has closed its doors, Chuck's
    Gun Shop and Pistol Range, Riverdale, Illinois. It was a leading local >>source of guns recovered at crime scenes in Chicago.

    If the store was selling guns recovered at crime scenes, then shouldn't the >spotlight be on the police, since *they* are the ones who recover guns at >crime scenes?

    Ha ha

    A significant number of guns recovered by Chicago police at crime scenes
    and now held as evidence had been sold at retail by this gun shop.

    Better?

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  • From Ed Stasiak@21:1/5 to All on Fri Mar 7 18:34:05 2025
    Adam H. Kerman

    From what little I've read about this case, the government of Mexico
    sued Smith & Wesson for aiding and abetting crime committed by
    drug cartels using their weapons.

    This is a nonsense lawsuit wholly done to implement more draconian
    anti-gun laws in the U.S. that will only affect law abiding Americans,
    who are not the problem.

    Or are we to believe that El Chapo, who has bazillions of dollars
    at his disposal and intimate connections with the global black
    market, is buying over priced civilian guns from the Bass Pro Shop
    in Albuquerque?...

    https://www.foxnews.com/world/mexican-government-hack-reveals-military-sold-arms-received-escort-cartels-report
    October 10, 2022

    Mexican government hack reveals military sold arms, received escort from Cartels: report

    One Mexican military officer offered thousands of rounds of ammunition to the cartels

    A major leak of Mexican government documents revealed that members of the military
    sold weapons and information to the cartels.

    "Sedena [Secretariat of National Defense] reported in its confidential report that the
    supplier of weapons and tactical equipment is another alleged member of the Army, whom
    the criminals refer to as "antiguo" and who, according to the analysis of his telephone
    signal, is based in Campo Military No. 1 of Mexico City," according to the documents.

    The information came to light following a security breach at the Secretariat of National
    Defense (Sedena), in which hackers from a group calling itself Guacamaya acquired more
    than four million confidential documents from the government, Mexican outlet Vallarta
    Daily reported.

    One of the documents was an intelligence report from June 2019 that stated a military
    officer offered tactical equipment, weapons and information on armed forces operations
    to drug cartels.

    At one point, a cartel leader asked the military for 2,000 rounds of ammunition for AK-47
    rifles, 5,000 for the R-15 and 50 magazines for each type of rifle.

    The report also mentioned a colonel known as the "new commander" for whom the cartel
    acted as an escort for about two weeks. The report described him as a man with a love of
    "drinks, smoking" and is "into everything."

    The data leak also revealed that defense groups standing in opposition to the cartels
    received training from contractors of presumably Russian origin. Emails dated from
    Aug. 24, 2022 identified four men who trained the Tlacotepec Community Police over
    a nearly two-week period in May of this year.

    However, the secretariat also identified a relationship between the group’s leader,
    Salvador Alanis Trujillo, and the Sierra Cartel, the Mexico Daily Post reported.

    Sedena identified one of the Russian men as Bogdanov Rustam, who is linked with the European Bodyguard and Security Association. Despite Rustam’s more official
    affiliation, the Sedena has opened an investigation into his possible links to organized crime.

    Rustam allegedly served as an operator in the Russian special forces and anti-terrorism
    units.

    Officials identified another of the instructors as Antonio Rullan Dichter, a businessman
    and honorary consul of the Russian Federation as well as the criminal group Los Rusos,
    an opponent of the Sierra Cartel.

    The men do not appear to have direct ties to the Russian government, but Mexico has previously raised concerns over Russian influence and presence within its borders.

    A report from Air Force Gen. Glen VanHerck, commander of the U.S. Northern Command,
    told the U.S. Senate Committee on Armed Services in March that Mexico was host to
    "the largest portion of GRU members in the world," Business Insider reported.

    VanHerck could not specify the number of spies, but he stressed that the operatives
    in Mexico "keep an eye very closely on their opportunities to have influences on U.S.
    opportunities and access."

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  • From Adam H. Kerman@21:1/5 to Ed Stasiak on Fri Mar 7 19:01:30 2025
    Ed Stasiak <[email protected]d> wrote:

    Adam H. Kerman

    From what little I've read about this case, the government of Mexico
    sued Smith & Wesson for aiding and abetting crime committed by
    drug cartels using their weapons.

    This is a nonsense lawsuit wholly done to implement more draconian
    anti-gun laws in the U.S. that will only affect law abiding Americans,
    who are not the problem.

    Surely the laws would address distribution. I don't see a customer of a licensed firearm dealer buying for himself, and not himself a
    distributor, would be affected.

    Individual gun sales isn't how a drug cartel builds up an armory.

    Or are we to believe that El Chapo, who has bazillions of dollars
    at his disposal and intimate connections with the global black
    market, is buying over priced civilian guns from the Bass Pro Shop
    in Albuquerque?...

    https://www.foxnews.com/world/mexican-government-hack-reveals-military-sold-arms-received-escort-cartels-report

    There's significant corruption in Mexico? I'm shocked SHOCKED.

    Hey! This allows Trump to file a comparable lawsuit in Mexican courts,
    seeking massive damages!

    . . .

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  • From danny burstein@21:1/5 to Ed Stasiak on Fri Mar 7 19:47:42 2025
    In <[email protected]> Ed Stasiak <[email protected]d> writes:


    Adam H. Kerman

    From what little I've read about this case, the government of Mexico
    sued Smith & Wesson for aiding and abetting crime committed by
    drug cartels using their weapons.

    This is a nonsense lawsuit wholly done to implement more draconian
    anti-gun laws in the U.S. that will only affect law abiding Americans,
    who are not the problem.

    And that last paragraph (and the ones I've mercilessly snipped,
    folded, spindled, mutilated, and dumped in the landfill) is the
    typical kneejerk, garbage, vomit filled, verbiage we've
    come to expect from the usual crazies.


    --
    _____________________________________________________
    Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
    [email protected]
    [to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]

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  • From Ed Stasiak@21:1/5 to All on Sat Mar 8 06:08:16 2025
    Adam H. Kerman
    BTR1701

    If the store was selling guns recovered at crime scenes, then shouldn't the spotlight be on the police, since *they* are the ones who recover guns at crime scenes?

    A significant number of guns recovered by Chicago police at crime scenes
    and now held as evidence had been sold at retail by this gun shop.

    Then why are American tax payers footing the $1.6 billion yearly bill for the ATF?

    If there's any government agency Trump ought to pull the plug on, it's those guys.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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