Communism wins!
Pete Hegseth tells NATO that the EU will have to kick in a lot more in
the defense of Europe. Then it sounded like defense of Ukraine, not a
NATO ally, was thrown in.
In an idiotic "negotiating" strategy to end Russia's war upon Ukraine, >Hegseth flat out said Ukraine wouldn't join NATO.
Now, everyone understands that there's no practical way for Ukraine to
join NATO with Russia occupying Crimean and the Donbass and any other >Ukrainian territory since the breakup of the Soviet Union as that would
put the United States and the other NATO allies into an immediate hot
war with Russia, but you don't throw that out up front.
Also Hegseth said it was "unrealistic" for Ukraine to regain all the >territory it's lost.
At least be didn't offer international recognition of an enlarged Russia >along armistace lines if drawn according to current territory occupied.
Trump is being a real bastard here. He just dug Ukraine's grave
obtaining no useful concessions from Putin.
We know from recent history -- Europe not standing up to Russia's
territorial grabs -- is no kind of deterence to Russia's future
territorial grabs. That's the opposite of deterrence. That's
encouragement.
This isn't even a practical method of getting the rest of Europe more >committed to the defense of Ukraine. Instead, it gives them the excuse
to join the United States in abandoning the defense of Ukraine.
Putin's ambition to restore the empire of Catherine the Great is not
being thwarted, and if it takes losses of another 600,000 men in
battle, so be it.
Fri, 14 Feb 2025 18:56:03 -0000 (UTC), Adam H. Kerman <[email protected]>:
Communism wins!
Pete Hegseth tells NATO that the EU will have to kick in a lot more in
the defense of Europe. Then it sounded like defense of Ukraine, not a
NATO ally, was thrown in.
Giving up on any and all claims is one way to achieve peace quickly.
In an idiotic "negotiating" strategy to end Russia's war upon Ukraine, >>Hegseth flat out said Ukraine wouldn't join NATO.
There is no negotiating here. After all Trump said that Ukraine
wouldn't be involved in the negotiations so there's clearly an
intention for the USA and Russia to come to an agreement on what
should happen to UKraine with an assumption they will go along with
whatever Trump/Putin and crew come up with.
Now, everyone understands that there's no practical way for Ukraine to
join NATO with Russia occupying Crimean and the Donbass and any other >>Ukrainian territory since the breakup of the Soviet Union as that would
put the United States and the other NATO allies into an immediate hot
war with Russia, but you don't throw that out up front.
Also Hegseth said it was "unrealistic" for Ukraine to regain all the >>territory it's lost.
Hell, I expect their agreement with Russia will be that Ukraine
regains none of the territory they've lost.
At least be didn't offer international recognition of an enlarged Russia >>along armistace lines if drawn according to current territory occupied.
Trump is being a real bastard here. He just dug Ukraine's grave
obtaining no useful concessions from Putin.
We know from recent history -- Europe not standing up to Russia's >>territorial grabs -- is no kind of deterence to Russia's future
territorial grabs. That's the opposite of deterrence. That's
encouragement.
Agreed. I wonder how long Putin will wait if he gets this agreement
before he goes for more territory. I would not expect it to be more
than a few years.
This isn't even a practical method of getting the rest of Europe more >>committed to the defense of Ukraine. Instead, it gives them the excuse
to join the United States in abandoning the defense of Ukraine.
Putin's ambition to restore the empire of Catherine the Great is not
being thwarted, and if it takes losses of another 600,000 men in
battle, so be it.
Communism wins!
Pete Hegseth tells NATO that the EU will have to kick in a lot more in
the defense of Europe. Then it sounded like defense of Ukraine, not a
NATO ally, was thrown in.
In an idiotic "negotiating" strategy to end Russia's war upon Ukraine, >Hegseth flat out said Ukraine wouldn't join NATO.
Now, everyone understands that there's no practical way for Ukraine to
join NATO with Russia occupying Crimean and the Donbass and any other >Ukrainian territory since the breakup of the Soviet Union as that would
put the United States and the other NATO allies into an immediate hot
war with Russia, but you don't throw that out up front.
Also Hegseth said it was "unrealistic" for Ukraine to regain all the >territory it's lost.
At least be didn't offer international recognition of an enlarged Russia >along armistace lines if drawn according to current territory occupied.
Trump is being a real bastard here. He just dug Ukraine's grave
obtaining no useful concessions from Putin.
We know from recent history -- Europe not standing up to Russia's
territorial grabs -- is no kind of deterence to Russia's future
territorial grabs. That's the opposite of deterrence. That's
encouragement.
This isn't even a practical method of getting the rest of Europe more >committed to the defense of Ukraine. Instead, it gives them the excuse
to join the United States in abandoning the defense of Ukraine.
Putin's ambition to restore the empire of Catherine the Great is not
being thwarted, and if it takes losses of another 600,000 men in
battle, so be it.
Adam H. Kerman
This isn't even a practical method of getting the rest of Europe more committed to the defense of Ukraine. Instead, it gives them the excuse
to join the United States in abandoning the defense of Ukraine.
Adam H. Kerman
This isn't even a practical method of getting the rest of Europe more >>committed to the defense of Ukraine. Instead, it gives them the excuse
to join the United States in abandoning the defense of Ukraine.
Europe was never on-board with helping Ukraine and has been dragging
its heels the whole time and as I said in the past, there was no way Ukraine >was ever going to recapture Crimea and the Donbas on its own (which was
never ethnically or historically Ukrainian anyways) and no way the U.S. was >going to put boots on the ground to do it for them.
So what's the solution here, the U.S. continues endlessly pumping money
into a WWI-style stalemate war that Ukraine can never win?
Ukraine needs to write off Crimea and the Donbas but this needs to be >counterbalanced with Ukraine joining the EU and NATO once a peace
treaty is made.
Adam H. Kerman
This isn't even a practical method of getting the rest of Europe more
committed to the defense of Ukraine. Instead, it gives them the excuse
to join the United States in abandoning the defense of Ukraine.
Europe was never on-board with helping Ukraine and has been dragging
its heels the whole time
and as I said in the past, there was no way Ukraine
was ever going to recapture Crimea and the Donbas on its own (which was
never ethnically or historically Ukrainian anyways) and no way the U.S. was going to put boots on the ground to do it for them.
So what's the solution here, the U.S. continues endlessly pumping money
into a WWI-style stalemate war that Ukraine can never win?
Ukraine needs to write off Crimea and the Donbas but this needs to be counterbalanced with Ukraine joining the EU and NATO once a peace
treaty is made.
On 2/16/2025 5:24 PM, Ed Stasiak wrote:
Adam H. Kerman
This isn't even a practical method of getting the rest of Europe more >>>committed to the defense of Ukraine. Instead, it gives them the excuse
to join the United States in abandoning the defense of Ukraine.
Europe was never on-board with helping Ukraine and has been dragging
its heels the whole time
Well they've evidentlty changed their minds, as they're meeting tomorrow
to discuss the situation.
and as I said in the past, there was no way Ukraine
was ever going to recapture Crimea and the Donbas on its own (which was >>never ethnically or historically Ukrainian anyways) and no way the U.S. was >>going to put boots on the ground to do it for them.
So what's the solution here, the U.S. continues endlessly pumping money >>into a WWI-style stalemate war that Ukraine can never win?
Ukraine needs to write off Crimea and the Donbas but this needs to be >>counterbalanced with Ukraine joining the EU and NATO once a peace
treaty is made.
suzeeq <[email protected]> wrote:
On 2/16/2025 5:24 PM, Ed Stasiak wrote:
Europe was never on-board with helping Ukraine and has
been dragging its heels the whole time
Well they've evidentlty changed their minds, as they're
meeting tomorrow to discuss the situation.
Talk and empty promises won't help Zelensky.
On 2/16/2025 5:24 PM, Ed Stasiak wrote:
Adam H. Kerman
This isn't even a practical method of getting the rest of
Europe more committed to the defense of Ukraine. Instead,
it gives them the excuse to join the United States in
abandoning the defense of Ukraine.
Europe was never on-board with helping Ukraine and has been
dragging its heels the whole time
Well they've evidentlty changed their minds, as they're
meeting tomorrow to discuss the situation.
Adam H. Kerman
Ed Stasiak
Ukraine needs to write off Crimea and the Donbas but this needs to be counterbalanced with Ukraine joining the EU and NATO once a peace
treaty is made.
I'm not drunck enough to believe that Putin, having obtained military advantage, will rest on his laurels. He'll start another war at the
earliest opportunity.
suzeeq <[email protected]> wrote:
On 2/16/2025 5:24 PM, Ed Stasiak wrote:
Adam H. Kerman
This isn't even a practical method of getting the rest of Europe more
committed to the defense of Ukraine. Instead, it gives them the excuse >>>> to join the United States in abandoning the defense of Ukraine.
Europe was never on-board with helping Ukraine and has been dragging
its heels the whole time
Well they've evidentlty changed their minds, as they're meeting tomorrow
to discuss the situation.
Talk and empty promises won't help Zelensky.
suzeeq wrote:
On 2/16/2025 5:24 PM, Ed Stasiak wrote:
Adam H. Kerman
This isn't even a practical method of getting the rest of
Europe more committed to the defense of Ukraine. Instead,
it gives them the excuse to join the United States in
abandoning the defense of Ukraine.
Europe was never on-board with helping Ukraine and has been
dragging its heels the whole time
Well they've evidentlty changed their minds, as they're
meeting tomorrow to discuss the situation.
The European leaders are only meeting among themselves in Paris
to try and make themselves seem important because the real
'peace' talks are taking place between the USA and Russia in
Saudi Arabia and they weren't invited!
Adam H. Kerman
Ed Stasiak
Ukraine needs to write off Crimea and the Donbas but this needs to be >>>counterbalanced with Ukraine joining the EU and NATO once a peace
treaty is made.
I'm not drunck enough to believe that Putin, having obtained military >>advantage, will rest on his laurels. He'll start another war at the >>earliest opportunity.
A Ukraine that's part of NATO would be protected by treaty from an attack
by Russia, as this would mandate that NATO come to its defense and even
Putin won't risk facing an actual competent military but until there is
a peace treaty, Ukraine can't join NATO.
Right now, nobody _has_ to help Ukraine and without help, there's no
way they can effectively defend themselves against Russia and as Russia
is far larger with far more resources, they can maintain this stalemate
war essentially forever.
On 2/16/2025 11:06 PM, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
suzeeq <[email protected]> wrote:
On 2/16/2025 5:24 PM, Ed Stasiak wrote:
Adam H. Kerman
This isn't even a practical method of getting the rest of Europe more >>>>>committed to the defense of Ukraine. Instead, it gives them the excuse >>>>>to join the United States in abandoning the defense of Ukraine.
Europe was never on-board with helping Ukraine and has been dragging >>>>its heels the whole time
Well they've evidentlty changed their minds, as they're meeting tomorrow >>>to discuss the situation.
Talk and empty promises won't help Zelensky.
They've been sendimg actual help to Ukraine, so maybe they'll ramp that up.
suzeeq <[email protected]> wrote:
On 2/16/2025 11:06 PM, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
suzeeq <[email protected]> wrote:
On 2/16/2025 5:24 PM, Ed Stasiak wrote:
Adam H. Kerman
This isn't even a practical method of getting the rest of Europe more >>>>>> committed to the defense of Ukraine. Instead, it gives them the excuse >>>>>> to join the United States in abandoning the defense of Ukraine.
Europe was never on-board with helping Ukraine and has been dragging >>>>> its heels the whole time
Well they've evidentlty changed their minds, as they're meeting tomorrow >>>> to discuss the situation.
Talk and empty promises won't help Zelensky.
They've been sendimg actual help to Ukraine, so maybe they'll ramp that up.
No one, not even the United States, has sent Ukraine adequate help to
allow them to achieve military victories on top of military victories
that would allow Ukraine to end the occupation.
It's no skin off our nose; we aren't in Europe. But Russia permanently occupying Ukraine threatens the rest of central Europe.
On 2/17/2025 9:18 AM, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
suzeeq <[email protected]> wrote:
On 2/16/2025 11:06 PM, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
suzeeq <[email protected]> wrote:
On 2/16/2025 5:24 PM, Ed Stasiak wrote:
Adam H. Kerman
This isn't even a practical method of getting the rest of Europe more >>>>>>>committed to the defense of Ukraine. Instead, it gives them the excuse >>>>>>>to join the United States in abandoning the defense of Ukraine.
Europe was never on-board with helping Ukraine and has been dragging >>>>>>its heels the whole time
Well they've evidentlty changed their minds, as they're meeting tomorrow >>>>>to discuss the situation.
Talk and empty promises won't help Zelensky.
They've been sendimg actual help to Ukraine, so maybe they'll ramp that up.
No one, not even the United States, has sent Ukraine adequate help to
allow them to achieve military victories on top of military victories
that would allow Ukraine to end the occupation.
It's no skin off our nose; we aren't in Europe. But Russia permanently >>occupying Ukraine threatens the rest of central Europe.
True, Ukraine hasn't received the help that would kick out Russia from
their territory. But I hear there's talk of a European army forming and
that may shake up Russia a tad.
Adam H. Kerman
Ed Stasiak
A Ukraine that's part of NATO would be protected by treaty from an attack by Russia, as this would mandate that NATO come to its defense and even Putin won't risk facing an actual competent military but until there is
a peace treaty, Ukraine can't join NATO.
Do I really need to point out the obvious? There will NEVER be a peace
treaty in which a rump Ukraine joins NATO. Putin's motivation has been
to prevent Ukraine's integration into the EU and NATO. He will never
change his mind that threaten's Russia in the long term.
Right now, nobody _has_ to help Ukraine and without help, there's no
way they can effectively defend themselves against Russia and as Russia
is far larger with far more resources, they can maintain this stalemate
war essentially forever.
The longer the stalemate, the more likely political powers in Russia
will conspire to assasinate Putin. I see no other future.
Adam H. Kerman
Ed Stasiak
A Ukraine that's part of NATO would be protected by treaty from an attack >>>by Russia, as this would mandate that NATO come to its defense and even >>>Putin won't risk facing an actual competent military but until there is
a peace treaty, Ukraine can't join NATO.
Do I really need to point out the obvious? There will NEVER be a peace >>treaty in which a rump Ukraine joins NATO. Putin's motivation has been
to prevent Ukraine's integration into the EU and NATO. He will never
change his mind that threaten's Russia in the long term.
Neither Ukraine nor Russia may have a choice in this. The U.S. can't keep >funding an endless unwinnable war for Ukraine and Putin doesn't want to >continue being locked out of (most of) the global market while Russia
expends blood and money in an endless unwinnable war.
Give Putin Crimea and the Donbas for a peace treaty (Russia already holds >them and Ukraine ain't getting them back) and Ukraine then joins NATO
and the EU.
. . .
We know from recent history -- Europe not standing up to Russia's >>>territorial grabs -- is no kind of deterence to Russia's future >>>territorial grabs. That's the opposite of deterrence. That's >>>encouragement.
Agreed. I wonder how long Putin will wait if he gets this agreement
before he goes for more territory. I would not expect it to be more
than a few years.
Or... another country. Russia is surrounded by more non-NATO countries.
This isn't even a practical method of getting the rest of Europe more >>>committed to the defense of Ukraine. Instead, it gives them the excuse
to join the United States in abandoning the defense of Ukraine.
Putin's ambition to restore the empire of Catherine the Great is not >>>being thwarted, and if it takes losses of another 600,000 men in
battle, so be it.
In an idiotic "negotiating" strategy to end Russia's war upon Ukraine, >>Hegseth flat out said Ukraine wouldn't join NATO.
So what's the solution here, the U.S. continues endlessly pumping money >>>into a WWI-style stalemate war that Ukraine can never win?
Ukraine needs to write off Crimea and the Donbas but this needs to be >>>counterbalanced with Ukraine joining the EU and NATO once a peace
treaty is made.
On Mon, 17 Feb 2025 07:06:06 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"
<[email protected]> wrote:
So what's the solution here, the U.S. continues endlessly pumping money >>>>into a WWI-style stalemate war that Ukraine can never win?
Ukraine needs to write off Crimea and the Donbas but this needs to be >>>>counterbalanced with Ukraine joining the EU and NATO once a peace >>>>treaty is made.
Would Ukrainian EU membership without NATO membership be sufficient?
No question Putin would be apeshit about NATO membership but what
about EU membership?
On Sat, 15 Feb 2025 09:36:24 -0500, NoBody <[email protected]> wrote:
In an idiotic "negotiating" strategy to end Russia's war upon Ukraine, >>>Hegseth flat out said Ukraine wouldn't join NATO.
He can certainly guarantee that for 2024-2028 since each current NATO
member can veto the admission of any other state but once Trump leaves
the oval office his successor may or may not choose to exercise their
veto over Ukrainian admission to NATO.
Whether there's still an independent Ukraine at that point is not of
course guaranteed with Trump's tactics on Ukraine.
Is he going to North Korea next?
Mon, 17 Feb 2025 07:06:06 -0000 (UTC), Adam H. Kerman <[email protected]>:
So what's the solution here, the U.S. continues endlessly pumping money >>>>into a WWI-style stalemate war that Ukraine can never win?
Ukraine needs to write off Crimea and the Donbas but this needs to be >>>>counterbalanced with Ukraine joining the EU and NATO once a peace >>>>treaty is made.
Would Ukrainian EU membership without NATO membership be sufficient?
No question Putin would be apeshit about NATO membership but what
about EU membership?
No question Putin would be apeshit about NATO membership but what
about EU membership?
Putin's objective has been to tie Ukraine to Russia, both militarily and >economically. Putin has interferred in Ukrainian elections in the past
in a race between a pro-Russian incumbant and a pro-Europe opponent.
That was to thwart Ukraine from joining the EU, not NATO.
Putin makes no distinction between military and economic intregration
into Europe.
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