• Stupidity

    From Tony@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Sat May 24 20:03:45 2025
    XPost: a.b.binaries.tvseries

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Sat, 24 May 2025 20:42:11 +1200, Crash <[email protected]d>
    wrote:

    Perhaps that is indeed the problem; you do not recognise the cultural >>>performance of the other parties as including the deliberate
    disruption of other parties - parliament is a cultural performance as >>>much if not more than it is a forum for seeking consensus and >>>dispassionately discussing proposals for regulation or legislation.

    You have reached new heights of absurdity and incomprehension with
    this statement, to the point where any further rational debate is no
    longer possible.

    To be blunt, you are talking irrational crap.

    In summary, it is the job of each MP to try to persuade parliament and
    those that vote to implement policies and pass bills that relate to
    what they have campaigned on, and for the many issues that arise
    later, to represent to the extent possible those that have voted for
    them. That is why most MPs are in a political party - it is easier to
    come up with policies that will get at least some support, and even >oppositions MPs do at times get bills passed. The other side of that
    coin is that most parties will resist bills they do not agree with.
    Each politician is selling himself or herself as well as the political
    party they belong to - they will resist bills that they believe would
    be resisted by those that voted for them. The Maori Party is
    supporting the interests of their voters in exactly the same way as
    ACT MPs represent those that voted for their party - there are
    unlikely to be many of either party that also support policies of the
    other party, but with some parties there will be policies in common.
    Do you really not understand that?


    The response by rich in this extract (renamed) shows just how far a person like Rich can go to defend the indefensible.
    I lesson for all children to not lie and to not allow themselves to be led by politics.
    Read the last paragraph if you wish - it is absolute bollocks to suggest that it is OK to make parliament look inept with a poorly executed Haka seen overseas as a war dance.
    These three fools do not represent Maori any more than I represent my culture and to suggest they do is the stuff of insanity.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Crash@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Sun May 25 12:00:51 2025
    On Sat, 24 May 2025 20:03:45 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Sat, 24 May 2025 20:42:11 +1200, Crash <[email protected]d> >>wrote:

    Perhaps that is indeed the problem; you do not recognise the cultural >>>>performance of the other parties as including the deliberate
    disruption of other parties - parliament is a cultural performance as >>>>much if not more than it is a forum for seeking consensus and >>>>dispassionately discussing proposals for regulation or legislation.

    You have reached new heights of absurdity and incomprehension with
    this statement, to the point where any further rational debate is no >>>longer possible.

    To be blunt, you are talking irrational crap.

    In summary, it is the job of each MP to try to persuade parliament and >>those that vote to implement policies and pass bills that relate to
    what they have campaigned on, and for the many issues that arise
    later, to represent to the extent possible those that have voted for
    them. That is why most MPs are in a political party - it is easier to
    come up with policies that will get at least some support, and even >>oppositions MPs do at times get bills passed. The other side of that
    coin is that most parties will resist bills they do not agree with.
    Each politician is selling himself or herself as well as the political >>party they belong to - they will resist bills that they believe would
    be resisted by those that voted for them. The Maori Party is
    supporting the interests of their voters in exactly the same way as
    ACT MPs represent those that voted for their party - there are
    unlikely to be many of either party that also support policies of the
    other party, but with some parties there will be policies in common.
    Do you really not understand that?


    The response by rich in this extract (renamed) shows just how far a person like
    Rich can go to defend the indefensible.
    I lesson for all children to not lie and to not allow themselves to be led by >politics.
    Read the last paragraph if you wish - it is absolute bollocks to suggest that >it is OK to make parliament look inept with a poorly executed Haka seen >overseas as a war dance.
    These three fools do not represent Maori any more than I represent my culture >and to suggest they do is the stuff of insanity.

    Correct. While the two co-leaders of the Maori Party were each
    elected with over 50% of the vote in their respective electorates, the
    other Maori Party MPs were elected with well under 50%. Maori who are
    on the General Electoral Roll cannot vote in Maori electorates. So
    the Maori Party cannot lay claim to representing the will of all
    Maori. There are significant numbers of Maori on the Maori electoral
    roll that voted against them, and significant numbers of Maori not on
    the Maori electoral roll.


    --
    Crash McBash

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rich80105@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Sun May 25 13:16:22 2025
    On Sat, 24 May 2025 20:03:45 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Sat, 24 May 2025 20:42:11 +1200, Crash <[email protected]d> >>wrote:

    Perhaps that is indeed the problem; you do not recognise the cultural >>>>performance of the other parties as including the deliberate
    disruption of other parties - parliament is a cultural performance as >>>>much if not more than it is a forum for seeking consensus and >>>>dispassionately discussing proposals for regulation or legislation.

    You have reached new heights of absurdity and incomprehension with
    this statement, to the point where any further rational debate is no >>>longer possible.

    To be blunt, you are talking irrational crap.

    In summary, it is the job of each MP to try to persuade parliament and >>those that vote to implement policies and pass bills that relate to
    what they have campaigned on, and for the many issues that arise
    later, to represent to the extent possible those that have voted for
    them. That is why most MPs are in a political party - it is easier to
    come up with policies that will get at least some support, and even >>oppositions MPs do at times get bills passed. The other side of that
    coin is that most parties will resist bills they do not agree with.
    Each politician is selling himself or herself as well as the political >>party they belong to - they will resist bills that they believe would
    be resisted by those that voted for them. The Maori Party is
    supporting the interests of their voters in exactly the same way as
    ACT MPs represent those that voted for their party - there are
    unlikely to be many of either party that also support policies of the
    other party, but with some parties there will be policies in common.
    Do you really not understand that?


    The response by rich in this extract (renamed) shows just how far a person like
    Rich can go to defend the indefensible.
    I lesson for all children to not lie and to not allow themselves to be led by >politics.
    Read the last paragraph if you wish - it is absolute bollocks to suggest that >it is OK to make parliament look inept with a poorly executed Haka seen >overseas as a war dance.
    That is your personal opinion - like most of what you say, Tony, it
    does not necessarily represent what other people think.

    These three fools do not represent Maori any more than I represent my culture >and to suggest they do is the stuff of insanity.
    I doubt you represent any other persons culture, but that is not what
    I was claiming - they are representing the interests of those that
    voted for them, as well as for all New Zealanders. There is a
    difference, but you may not understand . . .

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rich80105@21:1/5 to All on Sun May 25 13:32:34 2025
    On Sun, 25 May 2025 12:00:51 +1200, Crash <[email protected]d>
    wrote:

    On Sat, 24 May 2025 20:03:45 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Sat, 24 May 2025 20:42:11 +1200, Crash <[email protected]d> >>>wrote:

    Perhaps that is indeed the problem; you do not recognise the cultural >>>>>performance of the other parties as including the deliberate >>>>>disruption of other parties - parliament is a cultural performance as >>>>>much if not more than it is a forum for seeking consensus and >>>>>dispassionately discussing proposals for regulation or legislation.

    You have reached new heights of absurdity and incomprehension with
    this statement, to the point where any further rational debate is no >>>>longer possible.

    To be blunt, you are talking irrational crap.

    In summary, it is the job of each MP to try to persuade parliament and >>>those that vote to implement policies and pass bills that relate to
    what they have campaigned on, and for the many issues that arise
    later, to represent to the extent possible those that have voted for >>>them. That is why most MPs are in a political party - it is easier to >>>come up with policies that will get at least some support, and even >>>oppositions MPs do at times get bills passed. The other side of that
    coin is that most parties will resist bills they do not agree with.
    Each politician is selling himself or herself as well as the political >>>party they belong to - they will resist bills that they believe would
    be resisted by those that voted for them. The Maori Party is
    supporting the interests of their voters in exactly the same way as
    ACT MPs represent those that voted for their party - there are
    unlikely to be many of either party that also support policies of the >>>other party, but with some parties there will be policies in common.
    Do you really not understand that?


    The response by rich in this extract (renamed) shows just how far a person like
    Rich can go to defend the indefensible.
    I lesson for all children to not lie and to not allow themselves to be led by >>politics.
    Read the last paragraph if you wish - it is absolute bollocks to suggest that >>it is OK to make parliament look inept with a poorly executed Haka seen >>overseas as a war dance.
    These three fools do not represent Maori any more than I represent my culture >>and to suggest they do is the stuff of insanity.

    Correct. While the two co-leaders of the Maori Party were each
    elected with over 50% of the vote in their respective electorates, the
    other Maori Party MPs were elected with well under 50%. Maori who are
    on the General Electoral Roll cannot vote in Maori electorates. So
    the Maori Party cannot lay claim to representing the will of all
    Maori. There are significant numbers of Maori on the Maori electoral
    roll that voted against them, and significant numbers of Maori not on
    the Maori electoral roll.

    Would any MP claim to represent the views of all in their electorate?
    - they tend to represent the policies of the party they belong to
    which may represent a majority of those who voted in that electorate
    (except of course list MPs)

    In theory a person that is not of Maori descent could stand in a Maori
    seat - I am not aware of it happening, but if that person had the
    support of the electorate, why should they have to be. Similarly we
    have less influence as voters on list MPs - we have seen from all
    parties why some were sufficiently low on the list that they were not
    expected to be elected . . .

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Tony@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Sun May 25 07:35:07 2025
    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Sat, 24 May 2025 20:03:45 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Sat, 24 May 2025 20:42:11 +1200, Crash <[email protected]d> >>>wrote:

    Perhaps that is indeed the problem; you do not recognise the cultural >>>>>performance of the other parties as including the deliberate >>>>>disruption of other parties - parliament is a cultural performance as >>>>>much if not more than it is a forum for seeking consensus and >>>>>dispassionately discussing proposals for regulation or legislation.

    You have reached new heights of absurdity and incomprehension with
    this statement, to the point where any further rational debate is no >>>>longer possible.

    To be blunt, you are talking irrational crap.

    In summary, it is the job of each MP to try to persuade parliament and >>>those that vote to implement policies and pass bills that relate to
    what they have campaigned on, and for the many issues that arise
    later, to represent to the extent possible those that have voted for >>>them. That is why most MPs are in a political party - it is easier to >>>come up with policies that will get at least some support, and even >>>oppositions MPs do at times get bills passed. The other side of that
    coin is that most parties will resist bills they do not agree with.
    Each politician is selling himself or herself as well as the political >>>party they belong to - they will resist bills that they believe would
    be resisted by those that voted for them. The Maori Party is
    supporting the interests of their voters in exactly the same way as
    ACT MPs represent those that voted for their party - there are
    unlikely to be many of either party that also support policies of the >>>other party, but with some parties there will be policies in common.
    Do you really not understand that?


    The response by rich in this extract (renamed) shows just how far a person >>like
    Rich can go to defend the indefensible.
    I lesson for all children to not lie and to not allow themselves to be led by >>politics.
    Read the last paragraph if you wish - it is absolute bollocks to suggest that >>it is OK to make parliament look inept with a poorly executed Haka seen >>overseas as a war dance.
    That is your personal opinion - like most of what you say, Tony, it
    does not necessarily represent what other people think.
    Wow, have you been given some communication skills training? OR was that little jewel accidental. THey say enough monkeys given enough time could write the bible.

    These three fools do not represent Maori any more than I represent my culture >>and to suggest they do is the stuff of insanity.
    I doubt you represent any other persons culture, but that is not what
    I was claiming - they are representing the interests of those that
    voted for them, as well as for all New Zealanders. There is a
    difference, but you may not understand . . .
    I understand but it is you that does not - they "claim" to represent Maori - got it? I was referring to that claim not what you claimed, jeez you are slow.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Crash@21:1/5 to All on Sun May 25 22:03:51 2025
    On Sun, 25 May 2025 13:32:34 +1200, Rich80105 <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    On Sun, 25 May 2025 12:00:51 +1200, Crash <[email protected]d>
    wrote:

    On Sat, 24 May 2025 20:03:45 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Sat, 24 May 2025 20:42:11 +1200, Crash <[email protected]d> >>>>wrote:

    Perhaps that is indeed the problem; you do not recognise the cultural >>>>>>performance of the other parties as including the deliberate >>>>>>disruption of other parties - parliament is a cultural performance as >>>>>>much if not more than it is a forum for seeking consensus and >>>>>>dispassionately discussing proposals for regulation or legislation.

    You have reached new heights of absurdity and incomprehension with >>>>>this statement, to the point where any further rational debate is no >>>>>longer possible.

    To be blunt, you are talking irrational crap.

    In summary, it is the job of each MP to try to persuade parliament and >>>>those that vote to implement policies and pass bills that relate to >>>>what they have campaigned on, and for the many issues that arise
    later, to represent to the extent possible those that have voted for >>>>them. That is why most MPs are in a political party - it is easier to >>>>come up with policies that will get at least some support, and even >>>>oppositions MPs do at times get bills passed. The other side of that >>>>coin is that most parties will resist bills they do not agree with. >>>>Each politician is selling himself or herself as well as the political >>>>party they belong to - they will resist bills that they believe would >>>>be resisted by those that voted for them. The Maori Party is
    supporting the interests of their voters in exactly the same way as
    ACT MPs represent those that voted for their party - there are
    unlikely to be many of either party that also support policies of the >>>>other party, but with some parties there will be policies in common.
    Do you really not understand that?


    The response by rich in this extract (renamed) shows just how far a person like
    Rich can go to defend the indefensible.
    I lesson for all children to not lie and to not allow themselves to be led by
    politics.
    Read the last paragraph if you wish - it is absolute bollocks to suggest that
    it is OK to make parliament look inept with a poorly executed Haka seen >>>overseas as a war dance.
    These three fools do not represent Maori any more than I represent my culture
    and to suggest they do is the stuff of insanity.

    Correct. While the two co-leaders of the Maori Party were each
    elected with over 50% of the vote in their respective electorates, the >>other Maori Party MPs were elected with well under 50%. Maori who are
    on the General Electoral Roll cannot vote in Maori electorates. So
    the Maori Party cannot lay claim to representing the will of all
    Maori. There are significant numbers of Maori on the Maori electoral
    roll that voted against them, and significant numbers of Maori not on
    the Maori electoral roll.

    Would any MP claim to represent the views of all in their electorate?

    No. What planet are you on?

    - they tend to represent the policies of the party they belong to
    which may represent a majority of those who voted in that electorate
    (except of course list MPs)

    So you concede my point that the Maori Party MPs do not represent
    Maoridom.

    In theory a person that is not of Maori descent could stand in a Maori
    seat - I am not aware of it happening, but if that person had the
    support of the electorate, why should they have to be.

    Correct - but electorate MPs can be elected despite the fact that most
    in the electorate did not vote for them.

    Similarly we
    have less influence as voters on list MPs - we have seen from all
    parties why some were sufficiently low on the list that they were not >expected to be elected . . .


    --
    Crash McBash

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rich80105@21:1/5 to All on Mon May 26 08:15:55 2025
    On Sun, 25 May 2025 22:03:51 +1200, Crash <[email protected]d>
    wrote:

    On Sun, 25 May 2025 13:32:34 +1200, Rich80105 <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    On Sun, 25 May 2025 12:00:51 +1200, Crash <[email protected]d> >>wrote:

    On Sat, 24 May 2025 20:03:45 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Sat, 24 May 2025 20:42:11 +1200, Crash <[email protected]d> >>>>>wrote:

    Perhaps that is indeed the problem; you do not recognise the cultural >>>>>>>performance of the other parties as including the deliberate >>>>>>>disruption of other parties - parliament is a cultural performance as >>>>>>>much if not more than it is a forum for seeking consensus and >>>>>>>dispassionately discussing proposals for regulation or legislation. >>>>>>
    You have reached new heights of absurdity and incomprehension with >>>>>>this statement, to the point where any further rational debate is no >>>>>>longer possible.

    To be blunt, you are talking irrational crap.

    In summary, it is the job of each MP to try to persuade parliament and >>>>>those that vote to implement policies and pass bills that relate to >>>>>what they have campaigned on, and for the many issues that arise >>>>>later, to represent to the extent possible those that have voted for >>>>>them. That is why most MPs are in a political party - it is easier to >>>>>come up with policies that will get at least some support, and even >>>>>oppositions MPs do at times get bills passed. The other side of that >>>>>coin is that most parties will resist bills they do not agree with. >>>>>Each politician is selling himself or herself as well as the political >>>>>party they belong to - they will resist bills that they believe would >>>>>be resisted by those that voted for them. The Maori Party is >>>>>supporting the interests of their voters in exactly the same way as >>>>>ACT MPs represent those that voted for their party - there are >>>>>unlikely to be many of either party that also support policies of the >>>>>other party, but with some parties there will be policies in common. >>>>>Do you really not understand that?


    The response by rich in this extract (renamed) shows just how far a person like
    Rich can go to defend the indefensible.
    I lesson for all children to not lie and to not allow themselves to be led by
    politics.
    Read the last paragraph if you wish - it is absolute bollocks to suggest that
    it is OK to make parliament look inept with a poorly executed Haka seen >>>>overseas as a war dance.
    These three fools do not represent Maori any more than I represent my culture
    and to suggest they do is the stuff of insanity.

    Correct. While the two co-leaders of the Maori Party were each
    elected with over 50% of the vote in their respective electorates, the >>>other Maori Party MPs were elected with well under 50%. Maori who are
    on the General Electoral Roll cannot vote in Maori electorates. So
    the Maori Party cannot lay claim to representing the will of all
    Maori. There are significant numbers of Maori on the Maori electoral >>>roll that voted against them, and significant numbers of Maori not on
    the Maori electoral roll.

    Would any MP claim to represent the views of all in their electorate?

    No. What planet are you on?
    We are in agreement then - the Maori Party are aware that they do not
    get all the electoral votes in the Maori seats, or all the Party votes
    - just as for example Peters and Seymour do not get all the Maori
    Votes in their electorates.



    - they tend to represent the policies of the party they belong to
    which may represent a majority of those who voted in that electorate >>(except of course list MPs)

    So you concede my point that the Maori Party MPs do not represent
    Maoridom.
    No, clearly they do not represent the views of all Maori, but then no
    party represents all of their electorate.

    My point was that I also do not claim that any other party represents
    all Pakeha, or all immigrants, or all of any particular group


    In theory a person that is not of Maori descent could stand in a Maori
    seat - I am not aware of it happening, but if that person had the
    support of the electorate, why should they have to be.

    Correct - but electorate MPs can be elected despite the fact that most
    in the electorate did not vote for them.
    Which is why I believe that preferential voting as they have in
    Australia could be an improvement on our system.


    Similarly we
    have less influence as voters on list MPs - we have seen from all
    parties why some were sufficiently low on the list that they were not >>expected to be elected . . .

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Crash@21:1/5 to All on Mon May 26 10:05:12 2025
    On Mon, 26 May 2025 08:15:55 +1200, Rich80105 <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    On Sun, 25 May 2025 22:03:51 +1200, Crash <[email protected]d>
    wrote:

    On Sun, 25 May 2025 13:32:34 +1200, Rich80105 <[email protected]> >>wrote:

    On Sun, 25 May 2025 12:00:51 +1200, Crash <[email protected]d> >>>wrote:

    On Sat, 24 May 2025 20:03:45 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>><[email protected]> wrote:

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Sat, 24 May 2025 20:42:11 +1200, Crash <[email protected]d> >>>>>>wrote:

    Perhaps that is indeed the problem; you do not recognise the cultural >>>>>>>>performance of the other parties as including the deliberate >>>>>>>>disruption of other parties - parliament is a cultural performance as >>>>>>>>much if not more than it is a forum for seeking consensus and >>>>>>>>dispassionately discussing proposals for regulation or legislation. >>>>>>>
    You have reached new heights of absurdity and incomprehension with >>>>>>>this statement, to the point where any further rational debate is no >>>>>>>longer possible.

    To be blunt, you are talking irrational crap.

    In summary, it is the job of each MP to try to persuade parliament and >>>>>>those that vote to implement policies and pass bills that relate to >>>>>>what they have campaigned on, and for the many issues that arise >>>>>>later, to represent to the extent possible those that have voted for >>>>>>them. That is why most MPs are in a political party - it is easier to >>>>>>come up with policies that will get at least some support, and even >>>>>>oppositions MPs do at times get bills passed. The other side of that >>>>>>coin is that most parties will resist bills they do not agree with. >>>>>>Each politician is selling himself or herself as well as the political >>>>>>party they belong to - they will resist bills that they believe would >>>>>>be resisted by those that voted for them. The Maori Party is >>>>>>supporting the interests of their voters in exactly the same way as >>>>>>ACT MPs represent those that voted for their party - there are >>>>>>unlikely to be many of either party that also support policies of the >>>>>>other party, but with some parties there will be policies in common. >>>>>>Do you really not understand that?


    The response by rich in this extract (renamed) shows just how far a person like
    Rich can go to defend the indefensible.
    I lesson for all children to not lie and to not allow themselves to be led by
    politics.
    Read the last paragraph if you wish - it is absolute bollocks to suggest that
    it is OK to make parliament look inept with a poorly executed Haka seen >>>>>overseas as a war dance.
    These three fools do not represent Maori any more than I represent my culture
    and to suggest they do is the stuff of insanity.

    Correct. While the two co-leaders of the Maori Party were each
    elected with over 50% of the vote in their respective electorates, the >>>>other Maori Party MPs were elected with well under 50%. Maori who are >>>>on the General Electoral Roll cannot vote in Maori electorates. So
    the Maori Party cannot lay claim to representing the will of all
    Maori. There are significant numbers of Maori on the Maori electoral >>>>roll that voted against them, and significant numbers of Maori not on >>>>the Maori electoral roll.

    Would any MP claim to represent the views of all in their electorate?

    No. What planet are you on?
    We are in agreement then - the Maori Party are aware that they do not
    get all the electoral votes in the Maori seats, or all the Party votes
    - just as for example Peters and Seymour do not get all the Maori
    Votes in their electorates.



    - they tend to represent the policies of the party they belong to
    which may represent a majority of those who voted in that electorate >>>(except of course list MPs)

    So you concede my point that the Maori Party MPs do not represent
    Maoridom.
    No, clearly they do not represent the views of all Maori, but then no
    party represents all of their electorate.

    My point was that I also do not claim that any other party represents
    all Pakeha, or all immigrants, or all of any particular group


    So why favour Maori with racially-exclusive representation in
    Parliament? The Maori seats should be abolished not because of the
    antics of the Maori party but because there is no longer any rational justification for them.


    In theory a person that is not of Maori descent could stand in a Maori >>>seat - I am not aware of it happening, but if that person had the
    support of the electorate, why should they have to be.

    Correct - but electorate MPs can be elected despite the fact that most
    in the electorate did not vote for them.
    Which is why I believe that preferential voting as they have in
    Australia could be an improvement on our system.

    I would be interested in looking at that. In recent decades we have
    had Governments constrained by needing support of very minor parties
    to form a government. If the Australian system delivers the same
    diversity as MMP it is worth looking at - in another thread.



    Similarly we
    have less influence as voters on list MPs - we have seen from all
    parties why some were sufficiently low on the list that they were not >>>expected to be elected . . .


    --
    Crash McBash

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Gordon@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Mon May 26 00:51:39 2025
    On 2025-05-25, Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Sun, 25 May 2025 22:03:51 +1200, Crash <[email protected]d>
    wrote:

    On Sun, 25 May 2025 13:32:34 +1200, Rich80105 <[email protected]> >>wrote:

    On Sun, 25 May 2025 12:00:51 +1200, Crash <[email protected]d> >>>wrote:

    On Sat, 24 May 2025 20:03:45 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>><[email protected]> wrote:

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Sat, 24 May 2025 20:42:11 +1200, Crash <[email protected]d> >>>>>>wrote:

    Perhaps that is indeed the problem; you do not recognise the cultural >>>>>>>>performance of the other parties as including the deliberate >>>>>>>>disruption of other parties - parliament is a cultural performance as >>>>>>>>much if not more than it is a forum for seeking consensus and >>>>>>>>dispassionately discussing proposals for regulation or legislation. >>>>>>>
    You have reached new heights of absurdity and incomprehension with >>>>>>>this statement, to the point where any further rational debate is no >>>>>>>longer possible.

    To be blunt, you are talking irrational crap.

    In summary, it is the job of each MP to try to persuade parliament and >>>>>>those that vote to implement policies and pass bills that relate to >>>>>>what they have campaigned on, and for the many issues that arise >>>>>>later, to represent to the extent possible those that have voted for >>>>>>them. That is why most MPs are in a political party - it is easier to >>>>>>come up with policies that will get at least some support, and even >>>>>>oppositions MPs do at times get bills passed. The other side of that >>>>>>coin is that most parties will resist bills they do not agree with. >>>>>>Each politician is selling himself or herself as well as the political >>>>>>party they belong to - they will resist bills that they believe would >>>>>>be resisted by those that voted for them. The Maori Party is >>>>>>supporting the interests of their voters in exactly the same way as >>>>>>ACT MPs represent those that voted for their party - there are >>>>>>unlikely to be many of either party that also support policies of the >>>>>>other party, but with some parties there will be policies in common. >>>>>>Do you really not understand that?


    The response by rich in this extract (renamed) shows just how far a person like
    Rich can go to defend the indefensible.
    I lesson for all children to not lie and to not allow themselves to be led by
    politics.
    Read the last paragraph if you wish - it is absolute bollocks to suggest that
    it is OK to make parliament look inept with a poorly executed Haka seen >>>>>overseas as a war dance.
    These three fools do not represent Maori any more than I represent my culture
    and to suggest they do is the stuff of insanity.

    Correct. While the two co-leaders of the Maori Party were each
    elected with over 50% of the vote in their respective electorates, the >>>>other Maori Party MPs were elected with well under 50%. Maori who are >>>>on the General Electoral Roll cannot vote in Maori electorates. So
    the Maori Party cannot lay claim to representing the will of all
    Maori. There are significant numbers of Maori on the Maori electoral >>>>roll that voted against them, and significant numbers of Maori not on >>>>the Maori electoral roll.

    Would any MP claim to represent the views of all in their electorate?

    No. What planet are you on?
    We are in agreement then - the Maori Party are aware that they do not
    get all the electoral votes in the Maori seats, or all the Party votes
    - just as for example Peters and Seymour do not get all the Maori
    Votes in their electorates.



    - they tend to represent the policies of the party they belong to
    which may represent a majority of those who voted in that electorate >>>(except of course list MPs)

    So you concede my point that the Maori Party MPs do not represent
    Maoridom.
    No, clearly they do not represent the views of all Maori, but then no
    party represents all of their electorate.

    It is not the party which represents the electorate but the MP. Once elected the MP respresents *all* of the people in their electorate.





    My point was that I also do not claim that any other party represents
    all Pakeha, or all immigrants, or all of any particular group


    In theory a person that is not of Maori descent could stand in a Maori >>>seat - I am not aware of it happening, but if that person had the
    support of the electorate, why should they have to be.

    Correct - but electorate MPs can be elected despite the fact that most
    in the electorate did not vote for them.
    Which is why I believe that preferential voting as they have in
    Australia could be an improvement on our system.

    As would Single Transferable Vote. Its complexity is its down fall as it is difficult to sell to the general voter.



    Similarly we
    have less influence as voters on list MPs - we have seen from all
    parties why some were sufficiently low on the list that they were not >>>expected to be elected . . .

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Gordon@21:1/5 to Crash on Mon May 26 00:40:59 2025
    On 2025-05-25, Crash <[email protected]d> wrote:
    On Sun, 25 May 2025 13:32:34 +1200, Rich80105 <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    On Sun, 25 May 2025 12:00:51 +1200, Crash <[email protected]d> >>wrote:

    On Sat, 24 May 2025 20:03:45 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Sat, 24 May 2025 20:42:11 +1200, Crash <[email protected]d> >>>>>wrote:

    Perhaps that is indeed the problem; you do not recognise the cultural >>>>>>>performance of the other parties as including the deliberate >>>>>>>disruption of other parties - parliament is a cultural performance as >>>>>>>much if not more than it is a forum for seeking consensus and >>>>>>>dispassionately discussing proposals for regulation or legislation. >>>>>>
    You have reached new heights of absurdity and incomprehension with >>>>>>this statement, to the point where any further rational debate is no >>>>>>longer possible.

    To be blunt, you are talking irrational crap.

    In summary, it is the job of each MP to try to persuade parliament and >>>>>those that vote to implement policies and pass bills that relate to >>>>>what they have campaigned on, and for the many issues that arise >>>>>later, to represent to the extent possible those that have voted for >>>>>them. That is why most MPs are in a political party - it is easier to >>>>>come up with policies that will get at least some support, and even >>>>>oppositions MPs do at times get bills passed. The other side of that >>>>>coin is that most parties will resist bills they do not agree with. >>>>>Each politician is selling himself or herself as well as the political >>>>>party they belong to - they will resist bills that they believe would >>>>>be resisted by those that voted for them. The Maori Party is >>>>>supporting the interests of their voters in exactly the same way as >>>>>ACT MPs represent those that voted for their party - there are >>>>>unlikely to be many of either party that also support policies of the >>>>>other party, but with some parties there will be policies in common. >>>>>Do you really not understand that?


    The response by rich in this extract (renamed) shows just how far a person like
    Rich can go to defend the indefensible.
    I lesson for all children to not lie and to not allow themselves to be led by
    politics.
    Read the last paragraph if you wish - it is absolute bollocks to suggest that
    it is OK to make parliament look inept with a poorly executed Haka seen >>>>overseas as a war dance.
    These three fools do not represent Maori any more than I represent my culture
    and to suggest they do is the stuff of insanity.

    Correct. While the two co-leaders of the Maori Party were each
    elected with over 50% of the vote in their respective electorates, the >>>other Maori Party MPs were elected with well under 50%. Maori who are
    on the General Electoral Roll cannot vote in Maori electorates. So
    the Maori Party cannot lay claim to representing the will of all
    Maori. There are significant numbers of Maori on the Maori electoral >>>roll that voted against them, and significant numbers of Maori not on
    the Maori electoral roll.

    Would any MP claim to represent the views of all in their electorate?

    No. What planet are you on?

    - they tend to represent the policies of the party they belong to
    which may represent a majority of those who voted in that electorate >>(except of course list MPs)

    So you concede my point that the Maori Party MPs do not represent
    Maoridom.

    In theory a person that is not of Maori descent could stand in a Maori
    seat - I am not aware of it happening, but if that person had the
    support of the electorate, why should they have to be.

    Correct - but electorate MPs can be elected despite the fact that most
    in the electorate did not vote for them.

    This is why, under MMP, the votes should study the list to see who is likely
    to get in.

    The candiates on the list are only voted for indirectly, the second vote is about the Party vote.




    Similarly we
    have less influence as voters on list MPs - we have seen from all
    parties why some were sufficiently low on the list that they were not >>expected to be elected . . .



    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Gordon@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Mon May 26 00:34:31 2025
    On 2025-05-25, Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Sun, 25 May 2025 12:00:51 +1200, Crash <[email protected]d>
    wrote:

    On Sat, 24 May 2025 20:03:45 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Sat, 24 May 2025 20:42:11 +1200, Crash <[email protected]d> >>>>wrote:

    Perhaps that is indeed the problem; you do not recognise the cultural >>>>>>performance of the other parties as including the deliberate >>>>>>disruption of other parties - parliament is a cultural performance as >>>>>>much if not more than it is a forum for seeking consensus and >>>>>>dispassionately discussing proposals for regulation or legislation.

    You have reached new heights of absurdity and incomprehension with >>>>>this statement, to the point where any further rational debate is no >>>>>longer possible.

    To be blunt, you are talking irrational crap.

    In summary, it is the job of each MP to try to persuade parliament and >>>>those that vote to implement policies and pass bills that relate to >>>>what they have campaigned on, and for the many issues that arise
    later, to represent to the extent possible those that have voted for >>>>them. That is why most MPs are in a political party - it is easier to >>>>come up with policies that will get at least some support, and even >>>>oppositions MPs do at times get bills passed. The other side of that >>>>coin is that most parties will resist bills they do not agree with. >>>>Each politician is selling himself or herself as well as the political >>>>party they belong to - they will resist bills that they believe would >>>>be resisted by those that voted for them. The Maori Party is
    supporting the interests of their voters in exactly the same way as
    ACT MPs represent those that voted for their party - there are
    unlikely to be many of either party that also support policies of the >>>>other party, but with some parties there will be policies in common.
    Do you really not understand that?


    The response by rich in this extract (renamed) shows just how far a person like
    Rich can go to defend the indefensible.
    I lesson for all children to not lie and to not allow themselves to be led by
    politics.
    Read the last paragraph if you wish - it is absolute bollocks to suggest that
    it is OK to make parliament look inept with a poorly executed Haka seen >>>overseas as a war dance.
    These three fools do not represent Maori any more than I represent my culture
    and to suggest they do is the stuff of insanity.

    Correct. While the two co-leaders of the Maori Party were each
    elected with over 50% of the vote in their respective electorates, the >>other Maori Party MPs were elected with well under 50%. Maori who are
    on the General Electoral Roll cannot vote in Maori electorates. So
    the Maori Party cannot lay claim to representing the will of all
    Maori. There are significant numbers of Maori on the Maori electoral
    roll that voted against them, and significant numbers of Maori not on
    the Maori electoral roll.

    Would any MP claim to represent the views of all in their electorate?

    When we say that a electorate MP represents the views of their electorate we are saying that the MP represents the majority of the views in their electorate. Pretty obvious but it does then to get forgotten when splitting hairs. In a democracy the majority rules.


    - they tend to represent the policies of the party they belong to
    which may represent a majority of those who voted in that electorate
    (except of course list MPs)

    In theory a person that is not of Maori descent could stand in a Maori
    seat - I am not aware of it happening, but if that person had the
    support of the electorate, why should they have to be. Similarly we
    have less influence as voters on list MPs - we have seen from all
    parties why some were sufficiently low on the list that they were not expected to be elected . . .

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)