• Interesting commentaron ACTs TP Bill

    From Crash@21:1/5 to All on Fri Apr 11 14:38:53 2025
    https://tinyurl.com/y226fp5b

    This very much reflects my views and those of others I know.


    --
    Crash McBash

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  • From Rich80105@21:1/5 to All on Fri Apr 11 15:27:06 2025
    On Fri, 11 Apr 2025 14:38:53 +1200, Crash <[email protected]d>
    wrote:

    https://tinyurl.com/y226fp5b

    This very much reflects my views and those of others I know.

    It certainly appears to be devoid of facts, reliant on dodgy
    presentation with no detail of even questions asked, and limited
    application to the real world, but usefully deflects blame by
    investing new entities (or new names for old entities) so that it is
    hard to tell who is culpable for the farce.

    To get the results that are purported to come from real research; it
    appears that the survey covered all involved with the NZ Initiative,
    The CRP, NZ Taxpayers Union, Free Speech Union, staff and members of
    the ACT Party and a few hangers on - and even some of those would be
    horrified at the unjustified assertions

    Curia is mentioned prominently, but it is not clear who asked the
    questions, or even what those questions were. It appears that Farrar
    may be thinking about retiring but if so he seems to be sabotaging his
    company on the way out - at one stage Curia may have had enough
    credibility to be sold. It does introduce two more largely anonymous
    drone web-sites: Voice Media Global and the Facts, neither of which
    give any credibility to the story.

    How long will thee new websites last? Will the ACT party survive to
    the next election?

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  • From Tony@21:1/5 to Crash on Fri Apr 11 03:17:47 2025
    Crash <[email protected]d> wrote:
    https://tinyurl.com/y226fp5b

    This very much reflects my views and those of others I know.

    Mine also.
    The 90% figure is questionable also. At least one group of 20,000 submissions were counted as one submission.

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  • From Crash@21:1/5 to All on Fri Apr 11 16:58:57 2025
    On Fri, 11 Apr 2025 15:27:06 +1200, Rich80105 <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    On Fri, 11 Apr 2025 14:38:53 +1200, Crash <[email protected]d>
    wrote:

    https://tinyurl.com/y226fp5b

    This very much reflects my views and those of others I know.

    It certainly appears to be devoid of facts, reliant on dodgy
    presentation with no detail of even questions asked, and limited
    application to the real world, but usefully deflects blame by
    investing new entities (or new names for old entities) so that it is
    hard to tell who is culpable for the farce.

    To get the results that are purported to come from real research; it
    appears that the survey covered all involved with the NZ Initiative,
    The CRP, NZ Taxpayers Union, Free Speech Union, staff and members of
    the ACT Party and a few hangers on - and even some of those would be >horrified at the unjustified assertions

    Curia is mentioned prominently, but it is not clear who asked the
    questions, or even what those questions were. It appears that Farrar
    may be thinking about retiring but if so he seems to be sabotaging his >company on the way out - at one stage Curia may have had enough
    credibility to be sold. It does introduce two more largely anonymous
    drone web-sites: Voice Media Global and the Facts, neither of which
    give any credibility to the story.

    As I thought Rich - you have nothing credible to say about what is in
    the article. You simply assert opinions that are in line with your anti-Government ideology.

    If what you say is true there was no need for massive protest or hikoi
    because even if the bill had passed the referendum would have had a
    massive No vote.

    We know what happened and why. Those opposing the Bill did not want a referendum because that may well have resulted in the 'tyranny of the
    majority' winning and that is not acceptable - better to kill the Bill
    now.

    How long will thee new websites last?

    Who cares? How is this relevant? Are you planning to get them taken
    down?

    Will the ACT party survive to
    the next election?

    Will the current Pope remain a Catholic? You do pose stupid questions sometimes, given that ACT has been around as long as it has.



    --
    Crash McBash

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  • From Gordon@21:1/5 to Crash on Sat Apr 12 02:23:50 2025
    On 2025-04-11, Crash <[email protected]d> wrote:
    https://tinyurl.com/y226fp5b

    This very much reflects my views and those of others I know.


    During the Treaty Principle Bills life there were hints that the feeling of
    the Country was in line with the poll.

    The issue is/was that the MSM fixated on the anti views and never kept investigating. The whole episode got tangled up in race issues rather than
    what the Bill was trying to do.

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  • From Rich80105@21:1/5 to Gordon on Sat Apr 12 19:00:20 2025
    On 12 Apr 2025 02:23:50 GMT, Gordon <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 2025-04-11, Crash <[email protected]d> wrote:
    https://tinyurl.com/y226fp5b

    This very much reflects my views and those of others I know.


    During the Treaty Principle Bills life there were hints that the feeling of >the Country was in line with the poll.

    The issue is/was that the MSM fixated on the anti views and never kept >investigating. The whole episode got tangled up in race issues rather than >what the Bill was trying to do.

    This is clearly a total fiction - it has no visible support from Curia
    or Verian; the reference to "Freshwater Strategy" appears to be a
    total fiction. "According to Neal" appears to mean nothing. I am
    surprised Curia have not objected to a chart that purports to come
    from them.

    The website appears to be a concept containing crude fictional
    elements, possibly including some unattributed items that may be
    nothing more than examples of graphic presentation.

    It is no surprise that Tony was fooled, but I am surprised at some
    other posters to nz.general who appear to have been fooled . . .

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Tony@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Sat Apr 12 07:49:55 2025
    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 12 Apr 2025 02:23:50 GMT, Gordon <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 2025-04-11, Crash <[email protected]d> wrote:
    https://tinyurl.com/y226fp5b

    This very much reflects my views and those of others I know.


    During the Treaty Principle Bills life there were hints that the feeling of >>the Country was in line with the poll.

    The issue is/was that the MSM fixated on the anti views and never kept >>investigating. The whole episode got tangled up in race issues rather than >>what the Bill was trying to do.

    This is clearly a total fiction - it has no visible support from Curia
    or Verian; the reference to "Freshwater Strategy" appears to be a
    total fiction. "According to Neal" appears to mean nothing. I am
    surprised Curia have not objected to a chart that purports to come
    from them.

    The website appears to be a concept containing crude fictional
    elements, possibly including some unattributed items that may be
    nothing more than examples of graphic presentation.

    It is no surprise that Tony was fooled, but I am surprised at some
    other posters to nz.general who appear to have been fooled . . .
    Nobody here was fooled. You are lying.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rich80105@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Sat Apr 12 23:18:47 2025
    On Sat, 12 Apr 2025 07:49:55 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 12 Apr 2025 02:23:50 GMT, Gordon <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 2025-04-11, Crash <[email protected]d> wrote:
    https://tinyurl.com/y226fp5b

    This very much reflects my views and those of others I know.


    During the Treaty Principle Bills life there were hints that the feeling of >>>the Country was in line with the poll.

    The issue is/was that the MSM fixated on the anti views and never kept >>>investigating. The whole episode got tangled up in race issues rather than >>>what the Bill was trying to do.

    This is clearly a total fiction - it has no visible support from Curia
    or Verian; the reference to "Freshwater Strategy" appears to be a
    total fiction. "According to Neal" appears to mean nothing. I am
    surprised Curia have not objected to a chart that purports to come
    from them.

    The website appears to be a concept containing crude fictional
    elements, possibly including some unattributed items that may be
    nothing more than examples of graphic presentation.

    It is no surprise that Tony was fooled, but I am surprised at some
    other posters to nz.general who appear to have been fooled . . .
    Nobody here was fooled. You are lying.
    If you knew it was fake why did you not say so then?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Tony@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Sat Apr 12 20:17:02 2025
    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Sat, 12 Apr 2025 07:49:55 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 12 Apr 2025 02:23:50 GMT, Gordon <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 2025-04-11, Crash <[email protected]d> wrote:
    https://tinyurl.com/y226fp5b

    This very much reflects my views and those of others I know.


    During the Treaty Principle Bills life there were hints that the feeling of >>>>the Country was in line with the poll.

    The issue is/was that the MSM fixated on the anti views and never kept >>>>investigating. The whole episode got tangled up in race issues rather than >>>>what the Bill was trying to do.

    This is clearly a total fiction - it has no visible support from Curia
    or Verian; the reference to "Freshwater Strategy" appears to be a
    total fiction. "According to Neal" appears to mean nothing. I am >>>surprised Curia have not objected to a chart that purports to come
    from them.

    The website appears to be a concept containing crude fictional
    elements, possibly including some unattributed items that may be
    nothing more than examples of graphic presentation.

    It is no surprise that Tony was fooled, but I am surprised at some
    other posters to nz.general who appear to have been fooled . . .
    Nobody here was fooled. You are lying.
    If you knew it was fake why did you not say so then?
    You are lying. It is not fake. Your desperation is incredible and infantile.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Crash@21:1/5 to Gordon on Sun Apr 13 10:53:29 2025
    On 12 Apr 2025 02:23:50 GMT, Gordon <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 2025-04-11, Crash <[email protected]d> wrote:
    https://tinyurl.com/y226fp5b

    This very much reflects my views and those of others I know.


    During the Treaty Principle Bills life there were hints that the feeling of >the Country was in line with the poll.

    I am not sure about that, but those that were opposed to the Bill
    simply said that the Bill was discriminatory against Maori. I read
    widely about this but never saw any specific examination of what was
    in the Bill and why it discriminated against those of Maori descent.

    The issue is/was that the MSM fixated on the anti views and never kept >investigating. The whole episode got tangled up in race issues rather than >what the Bill was trying to do.

    Correct.


    --
    Crash McBash

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rich80105@21:1/5 to All on Sun Apr 13 12:07:50 2025
    On Sun, 13 Apr 2025 10:53:29 +1200, Crash <[email protected]d>
    wrote:

    On 12 Apr 2025 02:23:50 GMT, Gordon <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 2025-04-11, Crash <[email protected]d> wrote:
    https://tinyurl.com/y226fp5b

    This very much reflects my views and those of others I know.


    During the Treaty Principle Bills life there were hints that the feeling of >>the Country was in line with the poll.

    I am not sure about that, but those that were opposed to the Bill
    simply said that the Bill was discriminatory against Maori. I read
    widely about this but never saw any specific examination of what was
    in the Bill and why it discriminated against those of Maori descent.

    The issue is/was that the MSM fixated on the anti views and never kept >>investigating. The whole episode got tangled up in race issues rather than >>what the Bill was trying to do.

    Correct.

    The Bill was an attempt to negate a solemn Treaty; mis-representing
    the terms of that Treaty, and acting directly contrary to the
    principle of sanctity of contract. It relied on a negation of our laws
    and the reason for them - there is a reason why Prebble left the
    Waitangi Tribunal so quickly after he was appointed, and has said so
    little about it since - he was obviously given the truth.

    It is now clear to most National Party members that Christopher Luxon
    did himself and his party no good in agreeing to that aspect of the
    coalition agreement, and that he should never have agreed to the long
    period of select committee hearings - with his latest mistake in not
    getting expert advice before going over the top of his Foreign
    Minister in talking to some heads of government about the tariffs, he
    has proved himself to many National Party supporters as being unfit
    for leader of the party, let alone Prime Minister - their problem is
    that they do not have a replacement; but they know that a period in
    opposition will give some needed change.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rich80105@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Sun Apr 13 11:58:01 2025
    On Sat, 12 Apr 2025 20:17:02 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Sat, 12 Apr 2025 07:49:55 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 12 Apr 2025 02:23:50 GMT, Gordon <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 2025-04-11, Crash <[email protected]d> wrote:
    https://tinyurl.com/y226fp5b

    This very much reflects my views and those of others I know.


    During the Treaty Principle Bills life there were hints that the feeling of
    the Country was in line with the poll.

    No cites for that assertion - unless it was a blind hope from an ACT
    party supporter . . .



    The issue is/was that the MSM fixated on the anti views and never kept >>>>>investigating. The whole episode got tangled up in race issues rather than >>>>>what the Bill was trying to do.
    Rubbish - again no references for a wild assertion of what did not
    happen.



    This is clearly a total fiction - it has no visible support from Curia >>>>or Verian; the reference to "Freshwater Strategy" appears to be a >>>>total fiction. "According to Neal" appears to mean nothing. I am >>>>surprised Curia have not objected to a chart that purports to come
    from them.

    The website appears to be a concept containing crude fictional >>>>elements, possibly including some unattributed items that may be >>>>nothing more than examples of graphic presentation.

    It is no surprise that Tony was fooled, but I am surprised at some >>>>other posters to nz.general who appear to have been fooled . . .
    Nobody here was fooled. You are lying.

    If you knew it was fake why did you not say so then?
    You are lying. It is not fake. Your desperation is incredible and infantile. So you are claiming that Curia and Verian both did surveys that gave
    identical results and neither disclosed sample sizes, questions,
    degree of uncertainty etc? That is just a lie.

    I can believe that you were fooled and believed the fake news, Tony -
    you have often been caught out in that way, but this must be a first
    for the far-right gutter press - a return to Dirty Tricks?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Tony@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Sun Apr 13 00:20:55 2025
    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Sat, 12 Apr 2025 20:17:02 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Sat, 12 Apr 2025 07:49:55 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 12 Apr 2025 02:23:50 GMT, Gordon <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 2025-04-11, Crash <[email protected]d> wrote:
    https://tinyurl.com/y226fp5b

    This very much reflects my views and those of others I know.


    During the Treaty Principle Bills life there were hints that the feeling >>>>>>of
    the Country was in line with the poll.

    No cites for that assertion - unless it was a blind hope from an ACT
    party supporter . . .
    If you wish to address Grodon then do so, not in a cowardely way that he might not see.



    The issue is/was that the MSM fixated on the anti views and never kept >>>>>>investigating. The whole episode got tangled up in race issues rather than
    what the Bill was trying to do.
    Rubbish - again no references for a wild assertion of what did not
    happen.
    As above, but as an aside - you are lying.



    This is clearly a total fiction - it has no visible support from Curia >>>>>or Verian; the reference to "Freshwater Strategy" appears to be a >>>>>total fiction. "According to Neal" appears to mean nothing. I am >>>>>surprised Curia have not objected to a chart that purports to come >>>>>from them.

    The website appears to be a concept containing crude fictional >>>>>elements, possibly including some unattributed items that may be >>>>>nothing more than examples of graphic presentation.

    It is no surprise that Tony was fooled, but I am surprised at some >>>>>other posters to nz.general who appear to have been fooled . . . >>>>Nobody here was fooled. You are lying.

    If you knew it was fake why did you not say so then?
    You are lying. It is not fake. Your desperation is incredible and infantile. >So you are claiming that Curia and Verian both did surveys that gave >identical results and neither disclosed sample sizes, questions,
    degree of uncertainty etc? That is just a lie.
    No, you pillock, are asserting that the whole thing is fake - so prove it - you cannot.

    Abuse gone.
    Rich cannot prove what he said. The Curia poll etc sytand until someone proves they are wrong - there you are Dickbot - fill yer boots!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Tony@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Sun Apr 13 00:22:12 2025
    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Sun, 13 Apr 2025 10:53:29 +1200, Crash <[email protected]d>
    wrote:

    On 12 Apr 2025 02:23:50 GMT, Gordon <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 2025-04-11, Crash <[email protected]d> wrote:
    https://tinyurl.com/y226fp5b

    This very much reflects my views and those of others I know.


    During the Treaty Principle Bills life there were hints that the feeling of >>>the Country was in line with the poll.

    I am not sure about that, but those that were opposed to the Bill
    simply said that the Bill was discriminatory against Maori. I read
    widely about this but never saw any specific examination of what was
    in the Bill and why it discriminated against those of Maori descent.

    The issue is/was that the MSM fixated on the anti views and never kept >>>investigating. The whole episode got tangled up in race issues rather than >>>what the Bill was trying to do.

    Correct.

    The Bill was an attempt to negate a solemn Treaty; mis-representing
    the terms of that Treaty, and acting directly contrary to the
    principle of sanctity of contract. It relied on a negation of our laws
    and the reason for them - there is a reason why Prebble left the
    Waitangi Tribunal so quickly after he was appointed, and has said so
    little about it since - he was obviously given the truth.
    That is a lie. Prove what you have written.

    It is now clear to most National Party members that Christopher Luxon
    did himself and his party no good in agreeing to that aspect of the
    coalition agreement, and that he should never have agreed to the long
    period of select committee hearings - with his latest mistake in not
    getting expert advice before going over the top of his Foreign
    Minister in talking to some heads of government about the tariffs, he
    has proved himself to many National Party supporters as being unfit
    for leader of the party, let alone Prime Minister - their problem is
    that they do not have a replacement; but they know that a period in >opposition will give some needed change.
    Off topic.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Crash@21:1/5 to All on Sun Apr 13 21:25:18 2025
    On Sun, 13 Apr 2025 12:07:50 +1200, Rich80105 <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    On Sun, 13 Apr 2025 10:53:29 +1200, Crash <[email protected]d>
    wrote:

    On 12 Apr 2025 02:23:50 GMT, Gordon <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 2025-04-11, Crash <[email protected]d> wrote:
    https://tinyurl.com/y226fp5b

    This very much reflects my views and those of others I know.


    During the Treaty Principle Bills life there were hints that the feeling of >>>the Country was in line with the poll.

    I am not sure about that, but those that were opposed to the Bill
    simply said that the Bill was discriminatory against Maori. I read
    widely about this but never saw any specific examination of what was
    in the Bill and why it discriminated against those of Maori descent.

    The issue is/was that the MSM fixated on the anti views and never kept >>>investigating. The whole episode got tangled up in race issues rather than >>>what the Bill was trying to do.

    Correct.

    The Bill was an attempt to negate a solemn Treaty; mis-representing
    the terms of that Treaty, and acting directly contrary to the
    principle of sanctity of contract.

    So what text in the Bill do you assert does this? Quotes please - be
    specific on the Bill's content.

    It relied on a negation of our laws
    and the reason for them - there is a reason why Prebble left the
    Waitangi Tribunal so quickly after he was appointed, and has said so
    little about it since - he was obviously given the truth.

    It is now clear to most National Party members that Christopher Luxon
    did himself and his party no good in agreeing to that aspect of the
    coalition agreement, and that he should never have agreed to the long
    period of select committee hearings - with his latest mistake in not
    getting expert advice before going over the top of his Foreign
    Minister in talking to some heads of government about the tariffs, he
    has proved himself to many National Party supporters as being unfit
    for leader of the party, let alone Prime Minister - their problem is
    that they do not have a replacement; but they know that a period in >opposition will give some needed change.

    Political rhetoric. Quote the text in the Bill that supports your
    position.


    --
    Crash McBash

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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