• Should Destiny Church Be Classified As A Gang?

    From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to All on Fri Feb 21 03:25:21 2025
    A history of intimidating behaviour towards the public -- check.

    Criminal associations -- possibly check.

    Initiation of patched members -- check.

    What do you think? Should we make exemptions for faith-based gangs? Or
    just say a gang is a gang is a gang?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Crash@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Fri Feb 21 17:55:31 2025
    On Fri, 21 Feb 2025 03:25:21 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro
    <[email protected]d> wrote:

    A history of intimidating behaviour towards the public -- check.

    Criminal associations -- possibly check.

    Initiation of patched members -- check.

    What do you think? Should we make exemptions for faith-based gangs? Or
    just say a gang is a gang is a gang?

    Is it a 'faith-based' organisation? For those that stormed the
    Rainbow meeting, what elements of Christianity were evident? I had a
    Christian upbringing and cannot ever recall this sort of behaviour as
    being acceptable.

    Interestingly there is a suggestion that they should be stripped of
    charitable status:

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/542613/labour-mp-calls-for-destiny-church-to-lose-charity-status?cid=newsletter

    Personally I don't think this is good. The taking away of charitable
    status is a legal issue, not a punitive one. Destiny should be dealt
    with as lawbreakers first up. If they are a fake charity, that should
    also be dealt with but separately.


    --
    Crash McBash

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Gordon@21:1/5 to Crash on Fri Feb 21 05:28:22 2025
    On 2025-02-21, Crash <[email protected]d> wrote:
    On Fri, 21 Feb 2025 03:25:21 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro
    <[email protected]d> wrote:

    A history of intimidating behaviour towards the public -- check.

    Criminal associations -- possibly check.

    Initiation of patched members -- check.

    What do you think? Should we make exemptions for faith-based gangs? Or
    just say a gang is a gang is a gang?

    Is it a 'faith-based' organisation? For those that stormed the
    Rainbow meeting, what elements of Christianity were evident? I had a Christian upbringing and cannot ever recall this sort of behaviour as
    being acceptable.

    It is not Christians alone who consider the behaviour at the library
    to be acceptable.

    Interestingly there is a suggestion that they should be stripped of charitable status:

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/542613/labour-mp-calls-for-destiny-church-to-lose-charity-status?cid=newsletter

    Personally I don't think this is good. The taking away of charitable
    status is a legal issue, not a punitive one. Destiny should be dealt
    with as lawbreakers first up. If they are a fake charity, that should
    also be dealt with but separately.

    However the public is rolling the two points into one. True, not the best practice. If guilty on the legal side of their actions then the funding can
    be considered.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Tony@21:1/5 to Crash on Fri Feb 21 06:35:39 2025
    Crash <[email protected]d> wrote:
    On Fri, 21 Feb 2025 03:25:21 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro ><[email protected]d> wrote:

    A history of intimidating behaviour towards the public -- check.

    Criminal associations -- possibly check.

    Initiation of patched members -- check.

    What do you think? Should we make exemptions for faith-based gangs? Or
    just say a gang is a gang is a gang?

    Is it a 'faith-based' organisation? For those that stormed the
    Rainbow meeting, what elements of Christianity were evident? I had a >Christian upbringing and cannot ever recall this sort of behaviour as
    being acceptable.

    Interestingly there is a suggestion that they should be stripped of >charitable status:

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/542613/labour-mp-calls-for-destiny-church-to-lose-charity-status?cid=newsletter

    Personally I don't think this is good. The taking away of charitable
    status is a legal issue, not a punitive one. Destiny should be dealt
    with as lawbreakers first up. If they are a fake charity, that should
    also be dealt with but separately.

    I agree, the Charities Service has the job of determining if an organisation is worthy of being a charity, it is not the place of government.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rich80105@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Fri Feb 21 20:33:23 2025
    On Fri, 21 Feb 2025 06:35:39 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Crash <[email protected]d> wrote:
    On Fri, 21 Feb 2025 03:25:21 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro >><[email protected]d> wrote:

    A history of intimidating behaviour towards the public -- check.

    Criminal associations -- possibly check.

    Initiation of patched members -- check.

    What do you think? Should we make exemptions for faith-based gangs? Or >>>just say a gang is a gang is a gang?

    Is it a 'faith-based' organisation? For those that stormed the
    Rainbow meeting, what elements of Christianity were evident? I had a >>Christian upbringing and cannot ever recall this sort of behaviour as
    being acceptable.

    Interestingly there is a suggestion that they should be stripped of >>charitable status:
    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/542613/labour-mp-calls-for-destiny-church-to-lose-charity-status?cid=newsletter

    Personally I don't think this is good. The taking away of charitable >>status is a legal issue, not a punitive one. Destiny should be dealt
    with as lawbreakers first up. If they are a fake charity, that should
    also be dealt with but separately.

    I agree, the Charities Service has the job of determining if an organisation is
    worthy of being a charity, it is not the place of government.

    That is exactly why the MP has referred issues relating to at least
    one Registered Charity to the Charities Commission.

    However if there is a need to amend legislation then that would be up
    to government, not the Commission.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Tony@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Fri Feb 21 08:33:42 2025
    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Fri, 21 Feb 2025 06:35:39 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Crash <[email protected]d> wrote:
    On Fri, 21 Feb 2025 03:25:21 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro >>><[email protected]d> wrote:

    A history of intimidating behaviour towards the public -- check.

    Criminal associations -- possibly check.

    Initiation of patched members -- check.

    What do you think? Should we make exemptions for faith-based gangs? Or >>>>just say a gang is a gang is a gang?

    Is it a 'faith-based' organisation? For those that stormed the
    Rainbow meeting, what elements of Christianity were evident? I had a >>>Christian upbringing and cannot ever recall this sort of behaviour as >>>being acceptable.

    Interestingly there is a suggestion that they should be stripped of >>>charitable status:
    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/542613/labour-mp-calls-for-destiny-church-to-lose-charity-status?cid=newsletter

    Personally I don't think this is good. The taking away of charitable >>>status is a legal issue, not a punitive one. Destiny should be dealt >>>with as lawbreakers first up. If they are a fake charity, that should >>>also be dealt with but separately.

    I agree, the Charities Service has the job of determining if an organisation >>is
    worthy of being a charity, it is not the place of government.

    That is exactly why the MP has referred issues relating to at least
    one Registered Charity to the Charities Commission.
    Yes we all knew that. They have been the Charities Services for some time now.

    However if there is a need to amend legislation then that would be up
    to government, not the Commission.
    Services!
    Yes we know that also. Do you have anything to actually add to the dicsussion?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Crash@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Sat Feb 22 15:44:44 2025
    On Fri, 21 Feb 2025 06:35:39 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Crash <[email protected]d> wrote:
    On Fri, 21 Feb 2025 03:25:21 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro >><[email protected]d> wrote:

    A history of intimidating behaviour towards the public -- check.

    Criminal associations -- possibly check.

    Initiation of patched members -- check.

    What do you think? Should we make exemptions for faith-based gangs? Or >>>just say a gang is a gang is a gang?

    Is it a 'faith-based' organisation? For those that stormed the
    Rainbow meeting, what elements of Christianity were evident? I had a >>Christian upbringing and cannot ever recall this sort of behaviour as
    being acceptable.

    Interestingly there is a suggestion that they should be stripped of >>charitable status:
    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/542613/labour-mp-calls-for-destiny-church-to-lose-charity-status?cid=newsletter

    Personally I don't think this is good. The taking away of charitable >>status is a legal issue, not a punitive one. Destiny should be dealt
    with as lawbreakers first up. If they are a fake charity, that should
    also be dealt with but separately.

    I agree, the Charities Service has the job of determining if an organisation is
    worthy of being a charity, it is not the place of government.

    I don't recall seeing any of the Man Up mob being arrested and
    charged.


    --
    Crash McBash

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rich80105@21:1/5 to All on Sat Feb 22 17:58:36 2025
    On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 15:44:44 +1300, Crash <[email protected]d>
    wrote:

    On Fri, 21 Feb 2025 06:35:39 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Crash <[email protected]d> wrote:
    On Fri, 21 Feb 2025 03:25:21 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro >>><[email protected]d> wrote:

    A history of intimidating behaviour towards the public -- check.

    Criminal associations -- possibly check.

    Initiation of patched members -- check.

    What do you think? Should we make exemptions for faith-based gangs? Or >>>>just say a gang is a gang is a gang?

    Is it a 'faith-based' organisation? For those that stormed the
    Rainbow meeting, what elements of Christianity were evident? I had a >>>Christian upbringing and cannot ever recall this sort of behaviour as >>>being acceptable.

    Interestingly there is a suggestion that they should be stripped of >>>charitable status:
    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/542613/labour-mp-calls-for-destiny-church-to-lose-charity-status?cid=newsletter

    Personally I don't think this is good. The taking away of charitable >>>status is a legal issue, not a punitive one. Destiny should be dealt >>>with as lawbreakers first up. If they are a fake charity, that should >>>also be dealt with but separately.

    I agree, the Charities Service has the job of determining if an organisation is
    worthy of being a charity, it is not the place of government.

    I don't recall seeing any of the Man Up mob being arrested and
    charged.

    Neither do I, but there is photographic evidence, and an admission of incitement by the head of the gang. The incident triggered a call for
    greater clarity of what police should do in such situations. Are you
    trying to claim that there is a cover-up? or that the government is
    not acting properly?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Tony@21:1/5 to Crash on Sat Feb 22 05:22:01 2025
    Crash <[email protected]d> wrote:
    On Fri, 21 Feb 2025 06:35:39 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Crash <[email protected]d> wrote:
    On Fri, 21 Feb 2025 03:25:21 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro >>><[email protected]d> wrote:

    A history of intimidating behaviour towards the public -- check.

    Criminal associations -- possibly check.

    Initiation of patched members -- check.

    What do you think? Should we make exemptions for faith-based gangs? Or >>>>just say a gang is a gang is a gang?

    Is it a 'faith-based' organisation? For those that stormed the
    Rainbow meeting, what elements of Christianity were evident? I had a >>>Christian upbringing and cannot ever recall this sort of behaviour as >>>being acceptable.

    Interestingly there is a suggestion that they should be stripped of >>>charitable status:
    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/542613/labour-mp-calls-for-destiny-church-to-lose-charity-status?cid=newsletter

    Personally I don't think this is good. The taking away of charitable >>>status is a legal issue, not a punitive one. Destiny should be dealt >>>with as lawbreakers first up. If they are a fake charity, that should >>>also be dealt with but separately.

    I agree, the Charities Service has the job of determining if an organisation >>is
    worthy of being a charity, it is not the place of government.

    I don't recall seeing any of the Man Up mob being arrested and
    charged.

    Nor me. I am heavily involved in several charities and I do not believe that the behaviour demonstrated is appropriate. The issue however is whether it fits the official definition of a charity. A separate issue is whether the police should be following up based on behaviour. Some people are confusing the two issues, they are not connected at this time. Nothing good here.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Crash@21:1/5 to All on Sun Feb 23 08:24:47 2025
    On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 17:58:36 +1300, Rich80105 <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 15:44:44 +1300, Crash <[email protected]d>
    wrote:

    On Fri, 21 Feb 2025 06:35:39 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Crash <[email protected]d> wrote:
    On Fri, 21 Feb 2025 03:25:21 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro >>>><[email protected]d> wrote:

    A history of intimidating behaviour towards the public -- check.

    Criminal associations -- possibly check.

    Initiation of patched members -- check.

    What do you think? Should we make exemptions for faith-based gangs? Or >>>>>just say a gang is a gang is a gang?

    Is it a 'faith-based' organisation? For those that stormed the
    Rainbow meeting, what elements of Christianity were evident? I had a >>>>Christian upbringing and cannot ever recall this sort of behaviour as >>>>being acceptable.

    Interestingly there is a suggestion that they should be stripped of >>>>charitable status:
    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/542613/labour-mp-calls-for-destiny-church-to-lose-charity-status?cid=newsletter

    Personally I don't think this is good. The taking away of charitable >>>>status is a legal issue, not a punitive one. Destiny should be dealt >>>>with as lawbreakers first up. If they are a fake charity, that should >>>>also be dealt with but separately.

    I agree, the Charities Service has the job of determining if an organisation is
    worthy of being a charity, it is not the place of government.

    I don't recall seeing any of the Man Up mob being arrested and
    charged.

    Neither do I, but there is photographic evidence, and an admission of >incitement by the head of the gang. The incident triggered a call for
    greater clarity of what police should do in such situations. Are you
    trying to claim that there is a cover-up? or that the government is
    not acting properly?

    No. I made no mention of a cover up - you invented that.


    --
    Crash McBash

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rich80105@21:1/5 to All on Sun Feb 23 09:28:13 2025
    On Sun, 23 Feb 2025 08:24:47 +1300, Crash <[email protected]d>
    wrote:

    On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 17:58:36 +1300, Rich80105 <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 15:44:44 +1300, Crash <[email protected]d> >>wrote:

    On Fri, 21 Feb 2025 06:35:39 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Crash <[email protected]d> wrote:
    On Fri, 21 Feb 2025 03:25:21 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro >>>>><[email protected]d> wrote:

    A history of intimidating behaviour towards the public -- check.

    Criminal associations -- possibly check.

    Initiation of patched members -- check.

    What do you think? Should we make exemptions for faith-based gangs? Or >>>>>>just say a gang is a gang is a gang?

    Is it a 'faith-based' organisation? For those that stormed the >>>>>Rainbow meeting, what elements of Christianity were evident? I had a >>>>>Christian upbringing and cannot ever recall this sort of behaviour as >>>>>being acceptable.

    Interestingly there is a suggestion that they should be stripped of >>>>>charitable status:
    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/542613/labour-mp-calls-for-destiny-church-to-lose-charity-status?cid=newsletter

    Personally I don't think this is good. The taking away of charitable >>>>>status is a legal issue, not a punitive one. Destiny should be dealt >>>>>with as lawbreakers first up. If they are a fake charity, that should >>>>>also be dealt with but separately.

    I agree, the Charities Service has the job of determining if an organisation is
    worthy of being a charity, it is not the place of government.

    I don't recall seeing any of the Man Up mob being arrested and
    charged.

    Neither do I, but there is photographic evidence, and an admission of >>incitement by the head of the gang. The incident triggered a call for >>greater clarity of what police should do in such situations. Are you
    trying to claim that there is a cover-up? or that the government is
    not acting properly?

    No. I made no mention of a cover up - you invented that.
    You did not recall seeing something - but I accept you may not have
    been referring to a cover up.

    There are cover up concerns however about another aspect of the issues
    raised:
    https://norightturn.blogspot.com/2025/02/ipca-hides-behind-secrecy.html

    If the government does decide to amend police instructions, it will
    hopefully be through the proper channels, but when a government gets a reputation for making decisions without seeking independent advice, transparency can get lost . . .

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Tony@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Sat Feb 22 22:39:05 2025
    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Sun, 23 Feb 2025 08:24:47 +1300, Crash <[email protected]d>
    wrote:

    On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 17:58:36 +1300, Rich80105 <[email protected]> >>wrote:

    On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 15:44:44 +1300, Crash <[email protected]d> >>>wrote:

    On Fri, 21 Feb 2025 06:35:39 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>><[email protected]> wrote:

    Crash <[email protected]d> wrote:
    On Fri, 21 Feb 2025 03:25:21 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro >>>>>><[email protected]d> wrote:

    A history of intimidating behaviour towards the public -- check.

    Criminal associations -- possibly check.

    Initiation of patched members -- check.

    What do you think? Should we make exemptions for faith-based gangs? Or >>>>>>>just say a gang is a gang is a gang?

    Is it a 'faith-based' organisation? For those that stormed the >>>>>>Rainbow meeting, what elements of Christianity were evident? I had a >>>>>>Christian upbringing and cannot ever recall this sort of behaviour as >>>>>>being acceptable.

    Interestingly there is a suggestion that they should be stripped of >>>>>>charitable status:
    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/542613/labour-mp-calls-for-destiny-church-to-lose-charity-status?cid=newsletter

    Personally I don't think this is good. The taking away of charitable >>>>>>status is a legal issue, not a punitive one. Destiny should be dealt >>>>>>with as lawbreakers first up. If they are a fake charity, that should >>>>>>also be dealt with but separately.

    I agree, the Charities Service has the job of determining if an >>>>>organisation is
    worthy of being a charity, it is not the place of government.

    I don't recall seeing any of the Man Up mob being arrested and
    charged.

    Neither do I, but there is photographic evidence, and an admission of >>>incitement by the head of the gang. The incident triggered a call for >>>greater clarity of what police should do in such situations. Are you >>>trying to claim that there is a cover-up? or that the government is
    not acting properly?

    No. I made no mention of a cover up - you invented that.
    You did not recall seeing something - but I accept you may not have
    been referring to a cover up.
    Non-sequitur nonsense.

    There are cover up concerns however about another aspect of the issues >raised: >https://norightturn.blogspot.com/2025/02/ipca-hides-behind-secrecy.html
    So what has that to do with this thread?

    If the government does decide to amend police instructions, it will
    hopefully be through the proper channels, but when a government gets a >reputation for making decisions without seeking independent advice, >transparency can get lost . . .
    Yes, as demonstrated by the last government who did that multiple times. Fortunately this government is not doing that, we should be thankful but we need to be watchful, always.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rich80105@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Sun Feb 23 17:41:16 2025
    On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 22:39:05 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Sun, 23 Feb 2025 08:24:47 +1300, Crash <[email protected]d> >>wrote:

    On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 17:58:36 +1300, Rich80105 <[email protected]> >>>wrote:

    On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 15:44:44 +1300, Crash <[email protected]d> >>>>wrote:

    On Fri, 21 Feb 2025 06:35:39 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>><[email protected]> wrote:

    Crash <[email protected]d> wrote:
    On Fri, 21 Feb 2025 03:25:21 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro >>>>>>><[email protected]d> wrote:

    A history of intimidating behaviour towards the public -- check. >>>>>>>>
    Criminal associations -- possibly check.

    Initiation of patched members -- check.

    What do you think? Should we make exemptions for faith-based gangs? Or >>>>>>>>just say a gang is a gang is a gang?

    Is it a 'faith-based' organisation? For those that stormed the >>>>>>>Rainbow meeting, what elements of Christianity were evident? I had a >>>>>>>Christian upbringing and cannot ever recall this sort of behaviour as >>>>>>>being acceptable.

    Interestingly there is a suggestion that they should be stripped of >>>>>>>charitable status:
    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/542613/labour-mp-calls-for-destiny-church-to-lose-charity-status?cid=newsletter

    Personally I don't think this is good. The taking away of charitable >>>>>>>status is a legal issue, not a punitive one. Destiny should be dealt >>>>>>>with as lawbreakers first up. If they are a fake charity, that should >>>>>>>also be dealt with but separately.

    I agree, the Charities Service has the job of determining if an >>>>>>organisation is
    worthy of being a charity, it is not the place of government.

    I don't recall seeing any of the Man Up mob being arrested and >>>>>charged.

    Neither do I, but there is photographic evidence, and an admission of >>>>incitement by the head of the gang. The incident triggered a call for >>>>greater clarity of what police should do in such situations. Are you >>>>trying to claim that there is a cover-up? or that the government is
    not acting properly?

    No. I made no mention of a cover up - you invented that.
    You did not recall seeing something - but I accept you may not have
    been referring to a cover up.
    Non-sequitur nonsense.
    I did not think your response was that bad, all you did was not recall something that had not happened . . .


    There are cover up concerns however about another aspect of the issues >>raised: >>https://norightturn.blogspot.com/2025/02/ipca-hides-behind-secrecy.html
    So what has that to do with this thread?

    The IPCA clearly thought that the police should have acted, and that
    they could have acted differently, and that laws should be changed in
    some unspecified way that they are not prepared to disclose in the
    same way that policy advice is normally available under Freedom of
    Information legislation . . .


    If the government does decide to amend police instructions, it will >>hopefully be through the proper channels, but when a government gets a >>reputation for making decisions without seeking independent advice, >>transparency can get lost . . .

    Yes, as demonstrated by the last government who did that multiple times.
    If you believe that then provide an example . . . I think you are
    wrong.

    Fortunately this government is not doing that, we should be thankful but we >need to be watchful, always.
    This government is receiving policy advice from a lot of different
    sources that it is not prepared to disclose - in the case of weakening
    smoking restrictions there was a clear intention to put New Zealanders
    at greater risk to provide a financial reward to Philip Morris rather
    than better protect New Zealanders . . .

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Tony@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Sun Feb 23 06:11:53 2025
    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 22:39:05 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Sun, 23 Feb 2025 08:24:47 +1300, Crash <[email protected]d> >>>wrote:

    On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 17:58:36 +1300, Rich80105 <[email protected]> >>>>wrote:

    On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 15:44:44 +1300, Crash <[email protected]d> >>>>>wrote:

    On Fri, 21 Feb 2025 06:35:39 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>><[email protected]> wrote:

    Crash <[email protected]d> wrote:
    On Fri, 21 Feb 2025 03:25:21 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro >>>>>>>><[email protected]d> wrote:

    A history of intimidating behaviour towards the public -- check. >>>>>>>>>
    Criminal associations -- possibly check.

    Initiation of patched members -- check.

    What do you think? Should we make exemptions for faith-based gangs? Or >>>>>>>>>just say a gang is a gang is a gang?

    Is it a 'faith-based' organisation? For those that stormed the >>>>>>>>Rainbow meeting, what elements of Christianity were evident? I had a >>>>>>>>Christian upbringing and cannot ever recall this sort of behaviour as >>>>>>>>being acceptable.

    Interestingly there is a suggestion that they should be stripped of >>>>>>>>charitable status:
    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/542613/labour-mp-calls-for-destiny-church-to-lose-charity-status?cid=newsletter

    Personally I don't think this is good. The taking away of charitable >>>>>>>>status is a legal issue, not a punitive one. Destiny should be dealt >>>>>>>>with as lawbreakers first up. If they are a fake charity, that should >>>>>>>>also be dealt with but separately.

    I agree, the Charities Service has the job of determining if an >>>>>>>organisation is
    worthy of being a charity, it is not the place of government.

    I don't recall seeing any of the Man Up mob being arrested and >>>>>>charged.

    Neither do I, but there is photographic evidence, and an admission of >>>>>incitement by the head of the gang. The incident triggered a call for >>>>>greater clarity of what police should do in such situations. Are you >>>>>trying to claim that there is a cover-up? or that the government is >>>>>not acting properly?

    No. I made no mention of a cover up - you invented that.
    You did not recall seeing something - but I accept you may not have
    been referring to a cover up.
    Non-sequitur nonsense.
    I did not think your response was that bad, all you did was not recall >something that had not happened . . .
    I referred to your non-sequitur nonsense. Your sarcasm and idiotic childishness is not part of this discussion, so leave it at home where it belongs..


    There are cover up concerns however about another aspect of the issues >>>raised: >>>https://norightturn.blogspot.com/2025/02/ipca-hides-behind-secrecy.html
    So what has that to do with this thread?

    The IPCA clearly thought that the police should have acted, and that
    they could have acted differently, and that laws should be changed in
    some unspecified way that they are not prepared to disclose in the
    same way that policy advice is normally available under Freedom of >Information legislation . . .
    The IPCA are not involved.


    If the government does decide to amend police instructions, it will >>>hopefully be through the proper channels, but when a government gets a >>>reputation for making decisions without seeking independent advice, >>>transparency can get lost . . .

    Yes, as demonstrated by the last government who did that multiple times.
    If you believe that then provide an example . . . I think you are
    wrong.
    Unnecessary, but try 3 watesr for a start, many more also.

    Fortunately this government is not doing that, we should be thankful but we >>need to be watchful, always.
    This government is receiving policy advice from a lot of different
    sources that it is not prepared to disclose - in the case of weakening >smoking restrictions there was a clear intention to put New Zealanders
    at greater risk to provide a financial reward to Philip Morris rather
    than better protect New Zealanders . . .
    Barefaced lie, with zero evidence. Do what you ask of others and provide truth and evidence.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rich80105@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Sun Feb 23 20:09:12 2025
    On Sun, 23 Feb 2025 06:11:53 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 22:39:05 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Sun, 23 Feb 2025 08:24:47 +1300, Crash <[email protected]d> >>>>wrote:

    On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 17:58:36 +1300, Rich80105 <[email protected]> >>>>>wrote:

    On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 15:44:44 +1300, Crash <[email protected]d> >>>>>>wrote:

    On Fri, 21 Feb 2025 06:35:39 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>><[email protected]> wrote:

    Crash <[email protected]d> wrote:
    On Fri, 21 Feb 2025 03:25:21 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro >>>>>>>>><[email protected]d> wrote:

    A history of intimidating behaviour towards the public -- check. >>>>>>>>>>
    Criminal associations -- possibly check.

    Initiation of patched members -- check.

    What do you think? Should we make exemptions for faith-based gangs? Or
    just say a gang is a gang is a gang?

    Is it a 'faith-based' organisation? For those that stormed the >>>>>>>>>Rainbow meeting, what elements of Christianity were evident? I had a >>>>>>>>>Christian upbringing and cannot ever recall this sort of behaviour as >>>>>>>>>being acceptable.

    Interestingly there is a suggestion that they should be stripped of >>>>>>>>>charitable status:
    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/542613/labour-mp-calls-for-destiny-church-to-lose-charity-status?cid=newsletter

    Personally I don't think this is good. The taking away of charitable >>>>>>>>>status is a legal issue, not a punitive one. Destiny should be dealt >>>>>>>>>with as lawbreakers first up. If they are a fake charity, that should >>>>>>>>>also be dealt with but separately.

    I agree, the Charities Service has the job of determining if an >>>>>>>>organisation is
    worthy of being a charity, it is not the place of government.

    I don't recall seeing any of the Man Up mob being arrested and >>>>>>>charged.

    Neither do I, but there is photographic evidence, and an admission of >>>>>>incitement by the head of the gang. The incident triggered a call for >>>>>>greater clarity of what police should do in such situations. Are you >>>>>>trying to claim that there is a cover-up? or that the government is >>>>>>not acting properly?

    No. I made no mention of a cover up - you invented that.
    You did not recall seeing something - but I accept you may not have >>>>been referring to a cover up.
    Non-sequitur nonsense.
    I did not think your response was that bad, all you did was not recall >>something that had not happened . . .
    I referred to your non-sequitur nonsense. Your sarcasm and idiotic childishness
    is not part of this discussion, so leave it at home where it belongs..


    There are cover up concerns however about another aspect of the issues >>>>raised: >>>>https://norightturn.blogspot.com/2025/02/ipca-hides-behind-secrecy.html >>>So what has that to do with this thread?

    The IPCA clearly thought that the police should have acted, and that
    they could have acted differently, and that laws should be changed in
    some unspecified way that they are not prepared to disclose in the
    same way that policy advice is normally available under Freedom of >>Information legislation . . .
    The IPCA are not involved.
    Yes they are involved in the conduct of the Police: See https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/542159/destiny-church-library-protest-intimidating-and-unacceptable-police
    and https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/541977/pride-and-rainbow-event-in-auckland-disrupted-by-destiny-church

    Their report was in part prompted by the "Posy Parker" conflict and
    the conduct of police there; they will certainly be involved in
    reviewing actions of police following this latest "protest" by Destiny
    church members.

    There is little difference between the stated views of government and opposition, but whether we have an open debate is yet to be seen - and agreements on future actions decided in secret are not likely to be
    very welcome . . .



    If the government does decide to amend police instructions, it will >>>>hopefully be through the proper channels, but when a government gets a >>>>reputation for making decisions without seeking independent advice, >>>>transparency can get lost . . .

    Yes, as demonstrated by the last government who did that multiple times. >>If you believe that then provide an example . . . I think you are
    wrong.
    Unnecessary, but try 3 watesr for a start, many more also.
    3 waters was an entirely different issue - I am not aware of any
    violent protests. What has happened since the election is of course
    that we have found that promised government support all went to tax
    breaks for landlords, and rates are going up to pay for the needed
    work. Not much to involve the IPCA there . . .


    Fortunately this government is not doing that, we should be thankful but we >>>need to be watchful, always.
    This government is receiving policy advice from a lot of different
    sources that it is not prepared to disclose - in the case of weakening >>smoking restrictions there was a clear intention to put New Zealanders
    at greater risk to provide a financial reward to Philip Morris rather
    than better protect New Zealanders . . .
    Barefaced lie, with zero evidence. Do what you ask of others and provide truth >and evidence.
    You so easily forget the changes to stop the sinking lid on the
    ability to purchase cigarettes, and the changes to allow continued
    purchases of some vapes by Chour to benefit one supplier that are now
    causing medical problems . . . The 'evidence' on which the Minister
    relied turned out to be partially irrelevant random articles from the
    internet, that she eventually claimed that she had looked up herself
    through and internet search . . .

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Tony@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Sun Feb 23 07:29:48 2025
    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Sun, 23 Feb 2025 06:11:53 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 22:39:05 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Sun, 23 Feb 2025 08:24:47 +1300, Crash <[email protected]d> >>>>>wrote:

    On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 17:58:36 +1300, Rich80105 <[email protected]> >>>>>>wrote:

    On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 15:44:44 +1300, Crash <[email protected]d> >>>>>>>wrote:

    On Fri, 21 Feb 2025 06:35:39 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>><[email protected]> wrote:

    Crash <[email protected]d> wrote:
    On Fri, 21 Feb 2025 03:25:21 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro >>>>>>>>>><[email protected]d> wrote:

    A history of intimidating behaviour towards the public -- check. >>>>>>>>>>>
    Criminal associations -- possibly check.

    Initiation of patched members -- check.

    What do you think? Should we make exemptions for faith-based gangs? >>>>>>>>>>>Or
    just say a gang is a gang is a gang?

    Is it a 'faith-based' organisation? For those that stormed the >>>>>>>>>>Rainbow meeting, what elements of Christianity were evident? I had a >>>>>>>>>>Christian upbringing and cannot ever recall this sort of behaviour as >>>>>>>>>>being acceptable.

    Interestingly there is a suggestion that they should be stripped of >>>>>>>>>>charitable status:
    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/542613/labour-mp-calls-for-destiny-church-to-lose-charity-status?cid=newsletter

    Personally I don't think this is good. The taking away of charitable >>>>>>>>>>status is a legal issue, not a punitive one. Destiny should be dealt >>>>>>>>>>with as lawbreakers first up. If they are a fake charity, that should
    also be dealt with but separately.

    I agree, the Charities Service has the job of determining if an >>>>>>>>>organisation is
    worthy of being a charity, it is not the place of government.

    I don't recall seeing any of the Man Up mob being arrested and >>>>>>>>charged.

    Neither do I, but there is photographic evidence, and an admission of >>>>>>>incitement by the head of the gang. The incident triggered a call for >>>>>>>greater clarity of what police should do in such situations. Are you >>>>>>>trying to claim that there is a cover-up? or that the government is >>>>>>>not acting properly?

    No. I made no mention of a cover up - you invented that.
    You did not recall seeing something - but I accept you may not have >>>>>been referring to a cover up.
    Non-sequitur nonsense.
    I did not think your response was that bad, all you did was not recall >>>something that had not happened . . .
    I referred to your non-sequitur nonsense. Your sarcasm and idiotic >>childishness
    is not part of this discussion, so leave it at home where it belongs..


    There are cover up concerns however about another aspect of the issues >>>>>raised: >>>>>https://norightturn.blogspot.com/2025/02/ipca-hides-behind-secrecy.html >>>>So what has that to do with this thread?

    The IPCA clearly thought that the police should have acted, and that
    they could have acted differently, and that laws should be changed in >>>some unspecified way that they are not prepared to disclose in the
    same way that policy advice is normally available under Freedom of >>>Information legislation . . .
    The IPCA are not involved.
    Yes they are involved in the conduct of the Police: See
    Obviously as a general comment (well done!), but they are not currently involved with this case. When they are feel free to comment. >https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/542159/destiny-church-library-protest-intimidating-and-unacceptable-police
    and >https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/541977/pride-and-rainbow-event-in-auckland-disrupted-by-destiny-church

    Their report was in part prompted by the "Posy Parker" conflict and
    the conduct of police there; they will certainly be involved in
    reviewing actions of police following this latest "protest" by Destiny
    church members.

    There is little difference between the stated views of government and >opposition, but whether we have an open debate is yet to be seen - and >agreements on future actions decided in secret are not likely to be
    very welcome . . .



    If the government does decide to amend police instructions, it will >>>>>hopefully be through the proper channels, but when a government gets a >>>>>reputation for making decisions without seeking independent advice, >>>>>transparency can get lost . . .

    Yes, as demonstrated by the last government who did that multiple times. >>>If you believe that then provide an example . . . I think you are
    wrong.
    Unnecessary, but try 3 watesr for a start, many more also.
    3 waters was an entirely different issue - I am not aware of any
    violent protests. What has happened since the election is of course
    that we have found that promised government support all went to tax
    breaks for landlords, and rates are going up to pay for the needed
    work. Not much to involve the IPCA there . . .


    Fortunately this government is not doing that, we should be thankful but we >>>>need to be watchful, always.
    This government is receiving policy advice from a lot of different >>>sources that it is not prepared to disclose - in the case of weakening >>>smoking restrictions there was a clear intention to put New Zealanders
    at greater risk to provide a financial reward to Philip Morris rather >>>than better protect New Zealanders . . .
    Barefaced lie, with zero evidence. Do what you ask of others and provide >>truth
    and evidence.
    You so easily forget the changes to stop the sinking lid on the
    ability to purchase cigarettes, and the changes to allow continued
    purchases of some vapes by Chour to benefit one supplier that are now
    causing medical problems . . . The 'evidence' on which the Minister
    relied turned out to be partially irrelevant random articles from the >internet, that she eventually claimed that she had looked up herself
    through and internet search . . .

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to All on Wed Mar 12 03:04:06 2025
    On Fri, 21 Feb 2025 03:25:21 -0000 (UTC), I wrote:

    A history of intimidating behaviour towards the public -- check.

    Criminal associations -- possibly check.

    Initiation of patched members -- check.

    Speaking of criminal associations, there have finally been some
    arrests of Destiny Church members as a result of their storming of the
    drag event at that Auckland community centre. The cops are saying they
    have nabbed four scumbags to start with, with more to follow.

    <https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/four-arrested-over-destiny-church-linked-protest-at-auckland-childrens-event-at-te-atatu-community-centre/QE6D6DUOXVFNDI5P2DJWSJCZCY/>

    Some of the charges include “indecent assault”. So much for claiming
    to stand for “family values”, eh ...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From BR@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Wed Mar 12 17:52:39 2025
    On Wed, 12 Mar 2025 03:04:06 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro
    <[email protected]d> wrote:

    On Fri, 21 Feb 2025 03:25:21 -0000 (UTC), I wrote:

    A history of intimidating behaviour towards the public -- check.

    Criminal associations -- possibly check.

    Initiation of patched members -- check.

    Speaking of criminal associations, there have finally been some
    arrests of Destiny Church members as a result of their storming of the
    drag event at that Auckland community centre. The cops are saying they
    have nabbed four scumbags to start with, with more to follow.

    <https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/four-arrested-over-destiny-church-linked-protest-at-auckland-childrens-event-at-te-atatu-community-centre/QE6D6DUOXVFNDI5P2DJWSJCZCY/>

    Some of the charges include �indecent assault�. So much for claiming
    to stand for �family values�, eh ...

    How about all the perverts and sexual deviants pushing their filth
    onto little children?

    If there were any real justice those obscene circus freaks would be
    behind bars for a long time.

    Bill.

    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
    https://www.avg.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rich80105@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Wed Mar 12 18:15:39 2025
    On Wed, 12 Mar 2025 17:52:39 +1300, BR <[email protected]> wrote:

    On Wed, 12 Mar 2025 03:04:06 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro ><[email protected]d> wrote:

    On Fri, 21 Feb 2025 03:25:21 -0000 (UTC), I wrote:

    A history of intimidating behaviour towards the public -- check.

    Criminal associations -- possibly check.

    Initiation of patched members -- check.

    Speaking of criminal associations, there have finally been some
    arrests of Destiny Church members as a result of their storming of the
    drag event at that Auckland community centre. The cops are saying they
    have nabbed four scumbags to start with, with more to follow.
    <https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/four-arrested-over-destiny-church-linked-protest-at-auckland-childrens-event-at-te-atatu-community-centre/QE6D6DUOXVFNDI5P2DJWSJCZCY/>

    Some of the charges include �indecent assault�. So much for claiming
    to stand for �family values�, eh ...

    How about all the perverts and sexual deviants pushing their filth
    onto little children?
    Are you claiming that members of the Destiny Church have been doing
    that?

    If there were any real justice those obscene circus freaks would be
    behind bars for a long time.

    It is not clear who you are talking about, or what evidence you may
    have. If you have relevant evidence I suggest you give it to the
    police.



    Bill.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)